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Oct. 30, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:13:30
1191 Ending Self Attacks - A Listener Conversation

Taking down your inner critic - it's not what you think...

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So, you say you've been wrestling with ye olde inner critic.
Yeah. I think I realized a little bit of what I've been doing the past few weeks.
It all kind of started a few weeks ago when I started to feel...
I was feeling really good about a lot of the progress I was making and I felt like I was breaking a lot of the patterns I have around not contributing and that sort of thing and I noticed that there was like this resurgence of my inner critic and at that point I think I started to like kind of isolate myself Because I started to feel a little bit depressed and then I was like,
well, you know, I have the tools to get through this and I'll be able to pull myself out of this.
And I started to work with it in therapy more and use some of my therapist methods.
And it just seemed to get worse and worse, but I kept telling myself, you know, I should be able to To get myself out of this, and I started to feel more and more ashamed of just being depressed or whatever.
I didn't really want to tell anybody.
Rich and I talked about it a little bit.
Well, we talked about it a lot.
We have these weekly meetings where we discuss how we're doing with our goals and everything, and I noticed more and more that I was getting less and less done.
After a while of trying these different methods to work with my inner critic, Rich was like, you know, maybe you should talk to Steph about this, and I felt such a resistance to it, like it would be humiliating to do so, to admit that I was having this problem.
I think a big theme that's been going on is this feeling of failure and shame about it, you know?
Now, I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt.
I have a question which I can hold off on.
No, go ahead. It's...
The thing that you're talking about is, as far as I understand it, unless I'm missing it, it's the stuff that you're doing for...
Is the volunteer stuff you're doing for FDR or is it something else?
I'm sorry, the stuff that I'm...
The volunteer stuff you're doing for FDR or is it something else?
As far as...
You said that you began, you had concerns about contribution.
I'm just trying to figure out what's actually going on in terms of, you said, you said contributing more, and I just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant by that.
Oh, I mean, when I started to, you know, contribute more of my thoughts and to do more for FDR, right, and I was feeling good about that at the time, but...
And with helping other people, like, I felt like I was able to help other people more, and that's I started to feel really good about that, and that's when the whole resurgence started.
The resurgence of depression?
Of my inner critic, yeah.
And then I started to get depressed, I think, as a result.
Now, I'm just trying to figure out the sequence in my own mind.
I'll tell you what I think and then you can, I'm sure, correct me if it's wrong.
My understanding was that you began to step forward in terms of helping people and then you began to work with great enthusiasm on some of this volunteer outreach stuff for FDR. Right.
Is that right? Yes.
And do you remember if it was the first or the second thing, which as far as I remember is separated by about two, maybe two and a half weeks.
Is it the first or the second that provoked the inner critic or both?
Because they're distinct things, right?
I mean, if that makes sense.
They're not totally unrelated, but they're two distinct things and we need to be specific.
I do think it was the first.
Okay, so it's when you began to step up and really try and help people in the chat window, in conversations, in other things, that you began to criticize yourself.
Right, or even just, like, contributing my thoughts.
I mean, even if it was just that, you know.
Right, right. Yeah, okay.
I mean, you and I have talked about what great stuff you've done that way, and And now you know why you didn't do it before, right?
I mean, and that kind of is a relief in a way, right?
Yeah, I hadn't really thought of that.
I mean, if we avoid doing something for a long time, and then we start doing it, and it turns out to be nothing but milk and honey, we kind of feel retarded then, right?
Why were we avoiding it if it's just fun, right?
Right, right. So this actually is...
It's comforting in a way.
I mean, I'm not saying that that comforts you, but it is comforting in a way, if that makes sense.
Right, yeah, that makes sense.
Like, oh, now I know why I didn't do this for so long, right?
Right, right, of course.
So, good. Good, that's good.
That's a relief.
Right. Okay, and...
Did it arise slowly or was it fairly rapid?
The emergence of the inner critic was fairly rapid, but yeah, the whole deterioration of my mood and my motivation, that's been sort of kind of slow. the whole deterioration of my mood and my motivation, that's Right. Yeah, don't that make sense?
I mean, it drains, right?
The vampire attack is quick, but the feeling of anemia is relatively slow, so I can certainly understand that.
And how aware were you at the time of this proximity, or these two things that were going on, the helping people and then followed by the self-attack, and then I guess the three, if you count the sadness or depression afterwards?
I was pretty aware of it.
I mean, actually, I made a post about it, you know.
I said, yeah, of course, this is what's going to happen when we sort of start rewriting the script.
But then, I don't know, I just lost sight of that.
Right, right. And I think, I'm going to put forward a tiny theory here and tell me if it makes any sense.
Because yesterday you posted about doing a Sunday show on women and philosophy, right?
Yeah. I think that you were trying to provoke these feelings to the point where you could talk about them.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Tell me what that means to you.
Yeah, because, I mean...
That sort of thing...
I remember when I first suggested the women's conference, that was one of the more unusual things for me, and it was really, really stressful.
So I suppose I just unconsciously figured that trying that again would be the one thing I could do that would actually push it to a tipping point.
Man, how selfish.
I mean, my God, woman. You think it's stressful for you?
I had to not talk for significant parts of that Sunday show.
Oh, and it's all about your stress, isn't it?
Sorry, just kidding. Right, okay, that sort of makes sense.
And did you have any emotional, was there an emotional aftermath to the Sunday show for you?
How did you feel about it?
How did you think it went for you?
Was it relative to your expectations and goals?
The Sunday show with...
The one that you had suggested, the Women's Conference.
Oh, right, right. Um...
Yeah, I mean, I... I felt like...
Well, I didn't clam up, so that's a plus.
But I just...
I did feel very unsure about my contribution to it.
Still, you know.
Um... I remember I was highly, highly anxious and, um...
Like, I didn't even want to, like, listen to it afterwards.
Oh, right, right, right.
No, I know what you mean.
I have that with some podcasts as well, for sure.
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
And so you didn't actually tell me how you felt about it afterwards?
Well, anxious. I mean, I felt...
It was ambivalent.
I mean, I felt positive that I actually contributed something, but on the other hand, I still didn't feel satisfied.
Right.
Right, right. Okay, well, let's come back to that perhaps later.
So what has the inner critic been charging you with?
What are you charged with here?
It's this constant theme of failure.
It's always comparing everything I do to this larger goal that I have for myself to do something greater than what I've been doing.
And it's like, if you can't even do this, then, you know, how can you expect anything else?
And so, everything I try to do, everything even if it's little and I don't accomplish it, it's like, wow, you know, these are really grandiose expectations for yourself if you can't even do this little thing.
Right, right, right.
And little things are like what?
Anything from just following through on my weekly goals of like my reading or going to the gym or finding a job or something like that.
Right, okay, okay.
And so it's basically like what...
What nonsense you have.
You want to save the world and you can't even find your keys.
Is it that kind of stuff? Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Now, the things that you're being criticized for, let's say completing your weekly goals, why are you not completing your weekly goals?
And I don't mean this in any form of criticism.
I'm just sort of trying to understand what you're being criticized for.
Like what I mean is that when my brain says to me, how can you save the world if you can't find your sunglasses, right?
What I say back to my brain is, well, that's your job, right?
I mean, I don't carry a mental map of where everything is, right?
You're supposed to remember where the sunglasses are, right?
Or if I forget something, you know, like I have a call and I forget to put it in my calendar or I'm not at my computer and I forget about it, and my brain says, oh, I can't believe you forgot about that call, and it's like, well, it's your job to remind me, right?
Right. And so, whereas if I am reminded about the call and I decide to blow it off, I mean, I don't, right, but let's say that I did, then I wouldn't be able to blame my unconscious, or not blame, but I wouldn't be able to sort of fight back by saying, well, wait a second, I mean...
The processing of time and of reminders is not the job of the conscious mind, it is the job of the unconscious mind, because otherwise I just sit there staring at my, you know, oh, it's ten hours until my call, it's nine hours until my call, right?
It's supposed to be an autonomous process, right?
Right. And I mean, I'm not so sure if it's things like that, like things that I'm just being forgetful of, although that's part of it.
It's things that I am conscious that I do have these goals and I do have like tasks that I set out for myself to do.
Like, you know, in the morning I'm going to do this and then I know I'm supposed to do it, but I don't do it.
Right, right. Now, that's another interesting problem when it comes to the question of motivation, right?
And that's a real challenge, is the question of motivation.
And the way that I try and deal with that is if I say, well, I want to do a podcast on this topic, or whatever, right?
And then I start to do the podcast, or I think about the podcast, and I don't feel enthusiastic.
Or the words...
Don't just flow, right?
And if they don't flow, then it's painful for everyone involved, right?
Right. Well, then what I say is, I sort of say to the ecosystem, well, clearly, we're not that interested in doing this topic, right?
Because you're all just sitting around, right?
I mean, I'm supposed to do the heavy lifting by commanding everything, but the best work happens when we all are enthusiastic, right?
Right. Right.
And this is, I mean, Rich has mentioned this to me before, too.
He's like, you know, you have these goals, and if you're not doing them, if you're not motivated, you know, maybe that's not what you really want to do.
And then my response, I mean, is like, well, then I'll just do nothing.
Like, I'll just waste away in bed.
Well, that sounds productive.
I know. Well, but neither of those is true, right?
I mean, if I want to do a podcast topic, like before I did the voting one, this recent one, I mean, I closed my eyes and I said to the MECO system, are we sure we want to do this?
This is going to be kind of explosive.
This is going to be kind of aggressive.
Are we sure, right?
And everyone's like, fuck yeah, right?
So, you know, we went and did it.
But if I sit to the MECO system and say, do we want to do it?
And they're like, or some say, fuck yeah, and the other people are like, hell no, right?
Then I'm not going to do it, right?
So the reality is that if I want to do a podcast topic and I feel unmotivated, then I both do and do not want to do it.
Right, that makes more sense.
It's not either or, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And that's where the curiosity and the need for self-RTR, that's where it really kicks in, is when you have the famous ambivalence, right?
Yes. I want to and I don't.
I have desire, I have fear, I have commitment and indifference, right?
Right. That's part of the exploration that occurs, right?
Where we don't judge, we don't force, we don't bully, we don't, you know...
What's that old thing? If it jams, force it.
If it breaks, eh, it needed replacing anyway, right?
But that's not how we want to deal with ourselves, right?
Right. I sense that you got sad there, or is that just me, or...?
It's not really sad.
I'm just feeling...
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like I'm just feeling some sort of despairing, I guess.
So, not sad, but despair.
Good, good. I'm glad we got that clarified, because we wouldn't want to put those two in the same category or anything.
I'm sorry, go on. Right, and it's just like...
No, I mean, I can't stop this.
It's like, oh, why...
You know this stuff.
Like, God, you know...
Right. So when you feel, sorry, just whoever's listening, if you could do the mute, just hit the mute so we don't hear the sounds from the chat room.
But you understand, right?
So if you get mad at yourself for the effects of self-criticism, you're stuck in a loop, right?
Yes. Yes.
Like, I can't believe I'm so unmotivated, damn it, right?
Yeah, right. What does that do to your motivation, right?
Yeah. Exactly.
It's like screaming at a kid, like, I can't believe you don't love me, dammit!
Well, that would be one of the reasons, right?
Right, right, right.
And the only way to break out of this spiral is obviously gentleness with the self and to not engage, right?
We all know that trolls on the internet will post provocative statements hoping that you will engage, right?
Yeah. Right? And we have trolls within, right?
Which is why the trolls on the outside have something to hook into, right?
Yes. I mean, there are no trolls on the board.
There are only trolls within ourselves, right?
All they're doing is calling.
They're using troll speak, right?
They're troll whisperers trying to get those parts to rouse up within ourselves, right?
Right. So...
The challenge when you have self-aggression is to not defend, to not engage, right?
So if I sort of look at myself and say, God, you're such an idiot, right?
Then I'll say to that part of me, go on.
But I don't think that's an option that's available for you.
An option that's available?
Yeah, to say, like, when you self-criticize and part of you says, oh, I'm so stupid or whatever, to say, go on.
Yeah, that's certainly not what I've been doing.
Go on. I just...
it's always just you know all you know here here it goes again you know um the it being the self-attack Thank you.
Yeah, and I keep trying to shut it up until suddenly I just can't even tell the difference between me and the inner critic.
Right, right. No, you're stupid.
Right, right. Yeah.
Can I interject with something?
Sure. I've had a recent experience that may help, I don't know.
This had to do with group therapy and there was a night when I was gonna go to group therapy and I was gonna talk about this volunteer thing and I missed group therapy.
I like lost track of time and I felt really angry and sort of angry at myself and I knew the self-abuse was gonna come and I just sort of sat there with it and What I've kind of figured out is that this critic inside me is like a scared and helpless child.
Like the scared part of my inner child that's really frightened that we're going to be attacked and so he has to come in and, you know, Get mad at me because I missed therapy.
I lost track of time.
And when I asked him the question, well, okay, how can you be mad at me when you were right here?
Why didn't you remind me?
And what was the response?
Well, it just sort of...
It was a loss of anger.
Just the anger went away.
And I just sort of explored that, and then I had kind of a sad emotional response to it, because there was this fear, and then there was this sudden sadness behind it.
But then, um... And I kind of had a roleplay thing, and the next week when I made it to group therapy, I had a roleplay with it, and he kind of had the same idea that, with just an independent corroboration, that this other part of me is a child.
And just kind of, I had had it.
We did one of those same reverse roleplays that you guys, that I think that would be good in this situation.
I mean, I think you're right, and I think that was a very wise way to approach it.
What I would suggest, Nate, as well, is when you remember to go to group therapy the next week, it's very important to say to your unconscious, thank you so much for reminding me.
Oh. Right.
How often do we give positive feedback to ourselves, our generative and creative abilities, right?
So after I did the voting video yesterday, I was like, man, great job!
Thank you so much, you know, and what would you guys like to do?
And it turned out a nap was in order.
It's like, thank you, right?
Thank you for, you know, I thank, I try to thank my unconscious at least once a week for the gifts that it's able to bring in terms of You know, speaking abilities and reasoning abilities and empathy abilities.
I can't claim virtue for all of those, right?
So it's important to thank the workhorses that we drive our carriages with, right?
And I think that aspect of things is something that we often forget to do, right?
To show appreciation, and of course that's because nobody showed appreciation to us when we were children, right?
But, I mean, appreciation, as I was talking about in the podcast on how to know when you're in love, the conversation, With Ned, appreciation is so important, right?
Because otherwise, our unconscious just feels like it only gets any attention when it does something, quote, wrong, right?
So it gets kind of testy. Colleen, is that something that resonates with you at all, or is that way off the mark?
Well, that definitely does make sense.
I can't count one time when I've actually given my unconscious any appreciation.
And why do you think that is?
Because I've been taking credit for it.
I mean, it's like...
It seems really counterintuitive to not feel like that's all just me, but it's obviously not.
Well, you can't say that it's all you when it's good, but then it's an inner critic when it's bad, right?
Right. I mean, that's kind of unfair, right?
Yeah. That's true.
But this, of course, is what we learn from parents so often, right?
That you are my child, and I am proud of you when I am pleased, and when I am displeased, you are bad, and I'm going to distance myself, right?
That's true. Yeah.
Yeah. At least I'm very aware that without care, appreciation and feeding, my unconscious could tomorrow say, you're not going to sleep.
You're gonna have bad dreams, and fuck you, I'm not gonna be creative for you anymore.
I'm not gonna generate ideas, I'm not gonna generate intuition, I'm not gonna generate arguments, I'm not going to give you the ability to write books by dictating, which is ridiculous.
Like, it could easily do all of that tomorrow, right?
Yeah, and that sounds like part of what has been happening lately.
That you've got non-cooperation on your hands, right?
Yeah, totally.
Right. Right.
Now, if you had a kid, right, who was not cooperating, what would you be, what would you do?
Well, I would sit down with him and ask, you know, that's made him not want to do it and, you know, all those kind of things.
Right, so if you had an angry, non-cooperative child, you would recognize that getting angry at him would only make it worse, right?
Of course. I can't believe you're making that face again, right?
Right, right. Well, um...
Well, you know what I'm going to ask next, right?
How is that going to make him feel?
Well, how is it going to work with you if you roll your eyes and exasperated and angry when you have a non-cooperative unconscious?
It's obviously going to make it worse.
Sure, absolutely.
Right, if your unconscious is saying, I'm not happy, and you say, ugh, man, I can't believe it!
How ridiculous, how self-indulgent, stop it, right?
Right. Well, you might get some compliance, but you won't get any love, right?
And you won't be solving the problem.
Right. Right, the unconscious is passive-aggressive.
It's like, okay, fine, no serotonin, right?
Yeah, yeah. No sleep or light sleep.
Like the unconscious will always give way because we have this imperious power as the conscious mind, right?
But you can't win, right?
Right. Like if you put nothing but candy bars in your mouth, you'll chew and you'll swallow and your body will say, fine, here's your diabetes, right?
Right, and now it seems like it's withholding from me what it is that I want the most.
No, no, no. It's not withholding from you.
That's blaming your unconscious.
You are withholding from your unconscious what it wants the most.
Because if you say your unconscious is withholding, again, I'm sorry to be, maybe I'm jumping too much on this, but that's putting the onus on the unconscious, right?
Right.
Whereas if your child is upset with you, then the first thing to do is to say, I wonder what I did to upset my child, right?
Right. Not like, oh my god, I can't believe the child's upset again, and then the child gets more upset, and you're like, oh my god, I can't believe!
And more, it's just a spiral, right?
Right, right. And someone's got to break the pattern, right?
Yeah. And it's not going to be our unconscious.
It's just not. Right.
I mean, why should it? So let me talk to your inner critic, if that's okay.
Yeah. And I don't care if your inner critic cusses at me and snarls.
That's totally fine with me.
But yeah, so inner critic, what is upsetting you so much?
What's not going right?
What are you concerned about?
What are you scared about? What are you frustrated about?
out what is not working.
If we can't get to that level, that's no problem.
Tell me what your criticisms are of Colleen.
She's...what?
Now, you can't be at a loss for words here in a critic because you have no problem speaking to Colleen, right?
So I'm giving you a chance to state your case, right?
And you don't want to be the kind of critic who just gossips, right?
But then doesn't state things openly.
so here you get a chance to state things openly, right?
Well, she's...
She's got all these...
You know, really grand ideas for herself and her life, and yet she can't even do the simplest thing that would advance her towards her goal.
It's like...
You know, how can I work with that?
And it's completely pathetic.
I don't know why I got stuck here and...
And... And...
And nothing works, you know?
So, I've been telling her to do, you know, exactly what she needs to do, and nothing will work, nothing...
She won't do anything that I say.
Right.
Go on.
So, I have to assume that she's just being Being completely false about this.
I don't think that she really wants this.
I think she's...
I think she's just, you know, bullshitting.
And... And I mean, I really don't think that she can make it anywhere.
I mean, based on the evidence that I see.
Go on. I mean, if she can't even get a really simple job, you know, if she can't even do well at that, then, you know, what...
What business does she have wanting anything else?
I mean, it's like she doesn't have any skills.
She doesn't have any education and she won't take the steps to get those kinds of things.
It's like...
I'm just embarrassed by her.
I'm embarrassed by... I'm embarrassed by all of her failures and this delusion she has that it's gonna go anywhere.
So you feel kind of trapped, right?
Right. Yeah, I don't know why I got stuck, you know, with this one, you know?
Right, right, right. No, I understand that, right?
Like, why do I have to ride with the lame horse, right?
That thinks it's a Pegasus, right?
Right. But go on.
I'm sure there's more. And I'm just making notes.
I want to make sure that I understand where you're coming from.
Um... Yeah, I just...
Yeah, basically it's just she's pathetic and embarrassing and expects, you know, things to happen for her when she's just kind of like adrift and there's nothing to work with.
So that's, I mean, that's pretty much all I have to say.
Right, right. So what...
What's the disaster scenario?
How do you think, like, what's your worst fear?
And maybe you're right, but what's your worst fear about how is this going to play out?
What's going to happen?
What's the worst case scenario here?
Well, she's going to just sink worse and worse into this pattern of not being motivated and not doing anything until some sort of something Forces her to do something like,
I don't know, her relationship is going to fail and then she'll have to find some sort of job and then, you know, she'll just be going from menial job to menial job the rest of her life and not having, you know, only working for basically survival and, you know, I'll be stuck with this loser my entire life.
Right, right.
Right. So there's going to be this underachievement.
There's going to be this waste of time and waste of abilities.
Is that right? Right.
And I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt.
I just want to make sure that we get everything that is of concern to you.
That's it. All right.
Now... I want to help you get what you want, right?
I'm not here to criticize you back, but I am obviously going to try and suggest other ways of getting what you want, since what you're doing isn't working, right?
Right. And so, again, I'm not blaming you for that, right, because we do what we're used to, but what you're doing isn't Isn't getting you what you want, and I want to help get what you want.
That is going to mean that I'm going to have to suggest alternative things, but it's, of course, entirely up to you, right?
Right. So does that sound like a good approach?
Yeah, I mean, I am skeptical, but...
Oh, totally! Look, there's no magic wand here, right?
I totally understand the skepticism and I'm not going to try and talk you out of that.
I promise you there's not going to be a cheerleading session, right?
Right. I mean, we need practical things, right?
Right. So, you say that Colleen is failing at these greater goals.
And what are these greater goals as you see them?
What has she said or what has she got planned that are these greater goals?
Well, you know, she says she wants to contribute things to the world that will help it, like, you know, spread the truth and come up with some original ideas that will really help people.
Okay, so she wants to help people with original ideas and truth.
Right. Now, you and I both know where original ideas come from, right?
Right. Where?
The unconscious.
Right. So, you know, that's...
It's not going to work without you, right?
Right. Right.
And this is no criticism.
I'm just reinforcing what you're saying.
Because she's, oh, I'm going to have these original ideas and so on, but originality comes from the unconscious.
And so if she's charging off saying, I'm going to do this stuff, and she can't do it without you and is leaving you behind, then of course it looks pretty futile, right?
Right. So I'm just trying to reinforce what you're saying.
Does that sort of make sense? Right, and yeah, I mean, it's...
It's like if I said, sorry, it's like if I said, I want to go and negotiate with an Arab who only speaks Arabic, and I don't speak Arabic, right?
And I charge off and leave the translator behind, doesn't the translator look at me like, what the fuck, right?
Right. Right, and it's like she doesn't even think that I have any kind of function other than, you know, this sort of monster, I guess.
Yeah, you're like a curse, you're like a burden, right?
You're like this log that she has to drag around, right?
Right. And yet, the goals that she has are not possible without your eager participation, right?
Right. So I think we understand that, right?
And I think that that's an excellent, excellent point that you're making.
Yes. I mean, I may question the way that you're making it, but what you get is that there is no negotiation with a foreign language without me, the translator, right?
Yes. And it's really annoying to be left behind, right?
Right. Okay.
Now... Why, right, this is a very important question.
Why does Colleen want to do this?
Because I think you have a theory about why she wants to do this that I think is very interesting.
That's how she wants to bring truth and help the world.
Why? Well, I don't think she wants to.
I think she's just saying that.
So you don't think that she really wants to help the world, she's just saying that?
Based on what I see, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's totally fine.
Okay, why is she saying it?
Um.
I love these pauses like you know. haha You know. You've already told me.
me i'm just asking if you know what does she what does she hope to gain by saying that she's going to help the world What's the purpose? What's the goal?
What does she want out of that statement?
Sorry, she's not...
I don't know.
Thank you.
Is it that you don't know, or you know and you don't want to say?
She's not letting me say it.
Okay. Tap it out.
Mime it out. Do you want me to say it, and then you can tell me whether you agree?
Okay. It's vanity.
Yes. And...
Do we all agree that the perception is that you're saying it for vanity or she's saying it for vanity?
Yes. Like a grandiosity, right?
I want to go and help the world and I want to be a philosopher and I want to save the planet and I want to bring truth and I want to be creative and I want to be a goddess of reason striding the world.
And the perception is that that's vanity, right?
Yes. Okay, so tell me more about that.
Well, it's just, you know, she's just trying to avoid how pathetic her life actually is and how pathetic she really is and, you know, it's like...
So it's like a scar tissue that is growing over a void, right, of self-esteem?
That's the perception? Right.
Like vanity, insecurity, that kind of stuff, right?
Yes. Okay.
Which is why when you see these grand goals that she has without execution in smaller things, it's kind of like I was talking about in that book where it's like, if you can't take over the mafia, don't bother about the federal government.
If you can't live five pounds, don't bother with a hundred?
Yeah. Is that sort of what you mean?
Yeah. Now, what is Colleen's perception?
Like, she's obviously philosophical, but she's very psychologically insightful as well.
Would it be fair to say that one of the things that needs to be brought to the world to help it is compassion, right?
Right. And that doesn't mean like approval of everyone or I don't mean anything sentimental.
But compassion would be important to bring to the world, right?
Right. And clearly the world is not always friendly to compassion, to say the least, right?
It can be very provocative to people.
It can make them angry. Right.
So I'm going to say something here and you can tell me if it makes any sense to you.
Because I think... I think you're abstracting too much, right?
And I think that you do that because you're scared and I sympathize and maybe I'm completely full of crap and you can tell me that too if it's true, but let's try this on for size.
If I were in your shoes, I would think something like this.
Doesn't mean you're thinking it, it just means it's what I would think.
Which is, how can you claim that you want to bring compassion to a hostile and skeptical world when you can't even bring compassion to me, your inner critic?
Right.
Go on.
Go on.
Because isn't that what's really missing from this inner landscape, right?
That you want the compassion that is trumpeted as a big virtue that we're all going to bring to the world, right?
And it's like, feed the world and my children are starving, right?
Right. And I think that's what is the splinter in your mind's eye.
That is what is getting you So angry, right?
Is that this compassion, this truth, this curiosity, this empathy, this love, this affection for the world is being pursued as an idealistic abstract goal somewhere out there when what is really needed is right in here in your heart, right? Right.
Okay, well, enough of my speech, you're fine.
Tell me what you feel and think at the moment.
Um... I don't really know what to say.
Do you want to keep talking?
I don't want to put you on the spot.
I mean, I'm happy to keep talking if you're finding it helpful, but I didn't want to ignore what you were feeling and what you were thinking.
thinking.
That was a really unexpected feeling.
So I don't really know what to say at this point.
Okay, well, I'll keep talking and then you can just, I don't know, throw a piece of popcorn at my head when you want to say something.
There is a...
We get very angry when people proclaim virtues that they will not practice.
With those around them, right?
So if I say children should always be respected and I write books and I go on speaking tours and so on, right, and I never pay any attention or show any respect to my own children, that is particularly enraging to them, right?
Right. And that is the crazy frustration, because you're trying to reproduce in Colleen what you are feeling yourself, right?
Stop talking and start doing.
Stop thinking about bringing some value to the world that you're not even going to bring to your own heart.
Don't think that you can bring it to the world if you can't do it within your own soul, right?
Right, right.
I mean, what I've been feeling is just sort of really isolated and rejected and Like, she just, you know, kicks me aside and says I have no purpose, and...
Well, it's worse than that.
She says you have an evil purpose, right?
Right, right.
And you actually hold, this is the most maddening thing, is you actually hold the truth of the future.
You hold the creativity, and you hold what she most needs, which is the empathy, right?
Right. Right.
You're the one, you're the part of the personality that most feels the absence of empathy, right?
Yes. Right, because Colleen is off, oh, save the world, I'll do the truth, I'll whatever, right?
But you realize that that's all built on sand, because the empathy that is so necessary to heal the world is not present within the personality, and you're the beautiful aspect of the personality that gets that the most, right?
Yes. And you won't Participate without that empathy because there is no possible participation without that empathy.
You have the greatest integrity because you're saying, no, we can't move forward until we solve this, right?
Right. So that's the rank praise that I would put forward for you.
Right. That you get it.
There's no point pretending you're flying a plane when there's no wings, right?
Yes. Right?
And you're saying, Colleen, there's no wings!
And she's like, fuck off!
Stop being a downer! I'm flying anyway!
Right? And you're like, but you're not flying because there's no wings!
Right? Exactly.
And you get stuck, right? You fight with each other.
Right. But the reality is...
I'm sorry, go ahead. Or I'm not even that.
It's just like, shut up and go away.
Yeah, shut up. It's like, but I can't get off the plane, so I can't shut up, right?
Right. And you're totally right.
There are no wings. If Colleen cannot feel compassion for you, she can't save the world.
No question. I'm with you 150%.
So I'm completely on your side.
We can both say to Colleen, there are no wings.
Right? We're fine with that. We get that, and I think Colleen gets it as well, right?
Yes. Now, that's the part that I'm with you on, and I hope that you get that I'm with you, and I want to get you into the sky with wings with Colleen, right? Do you see that I want that for you?
Yes. Yes. But here's where UPB is gonna, in a very nice way, with gloved hands bitch slap you around just a little bit, right?
Right. Because you can't ask for what you're not willing to provide.
I mean, you can, but it's obviously stupid, right?
Yes. Now, Colleen...
Obviously is frightened that there are no wings, which is why she's so insistent that there are, right?
Yes. And so when you're yelling at her that there are no wings, you dumbass, what happens?
She just ignores me.
Nobody listens to someone who yells, right?
I get the frustration, but your fear is that you won't be heard, right?
Right. And so because you're afraid you won't be heard, you turn up the volume, right?
Yes. But that just blows the fuse, thus guaranteeing that you won't get hurt, right?
Right. And you're saying, well, Colleen can't save the world until she shows compassion for me, right?
Right. Which I agree with, but...
But...
You can't save Colleen until you show compassion for her.
Do you see what I mean?
I do see what you mean.
And this doesn't mean that she's not annoying.
I understand. Right?
This doesn't mean that you're not frustrated.
This doesn't mean that you're not half crazed with frustration.
I totally understand that.
But the cycle does have to be broken, right?
Because if she's ignoring you, causing you to yell louder, which causes her to ignore you more, which causes you to yell louder, you understand that the future that you fear is the one that you're creating, right?
Right. That's what's more pathetic.
I don't know that we want to bring the word pathetic in here, because I don't think that we're going to solve the problem of compassion by using the word pathetic, right?
I know it's tempting, right, that we want to put these pejorative labels on these things, but I guarantee you, you start throwing words like pathetic, you're not solving the problem of empathy.
And then you have no right to criticize Colleen for lacking empathy.
It's not pathetic. It's sad.
Right?
It's frustrating.
It's maddening.
It's lonely.
It's futile. It's agonizing.
It's crazy making.
But you all are brilliant, just badly trained.
I mean, this is the family, right?
Yeah. Escalation, condemnation, lack of empathy, pompous self-praise, grandiosity.
Isn't this just the family?
Yeah, exactly.
Right, and so whenever you say pathetic or stupid or vain or, you know, Embarrassing.
I mean, it's just the family, right?
And it's not because you're bad, it's just this is the language you were taught, right?
I mean, if my parents deliberately teach me the wrong meanings to English words, up is down, black is white, if they give me the wrong meanings when I'm a child, that doesn't make me stupid, right?
Right. It doesn't make me pathetic.
It doesn't make me ridiculous.
It doesn't make me retarded.
It doesn't make me embarrassing.
I was just badly taught, right?
Right. And that's the gentleness that I want to invite you into.
Hey, I just got taught the wrong meaning of words.
I got taught that assertiveness is aggression.
I got taught that making myself heard is yelling.
I got taught that up is down and black is white.
I got taught that saying I'm hungry actually means I don't want any food.
I just got taught all the wrong meanings.
It doesn't make me stupid.
Right. Just badly trained.
Yeah.
But...
And the purpose of that training is to make you feel stupid, right?
Right. And so if you then say, oh, I'm so stupid, and all you're doing is continuing the bad parenting, right?
Yeah, and I do want to stop that.
I get that.
I really do. And you're doing fantastically in this conversation.
I totally get that.
And I want to help you stop that.
I want you guys to work together.
I want you to go arm and arm into creating a wonderful future and not to spend the rest of this mortal life fussing and fighting and snapping at each other like a bunch of piranhas, right?
Right. Because that's to take childhood and stretch it into the grave.
Right? Right. That's to circle the corpse of childhood forever, right?
Right. And I think what tortures you the most, because you said that you were embarrassed that she wouldn't do the things that she need to, embarrassed by her failures and so on, right?
Well, do you know how much I know you believe in Colleen?
Because you would not be frustrated by her underachievements if you did not feel that together you could do some amazing things, right?
Right. It's like a dog playing piano.
The miracle is not that he does it well, but that he does it at all, right?
But you believe that you guys can do some amazing things if you're together.
What frustrates you so much is seeing what happens relative to the potential, right?
Yes. So saying that you're embarrassed by someone's failure is a weird way of praising them, right?
I suppose. Well, if you're supposing, let's go back, right?
So... If I, at the age of 42, decide to try out for the Moscow Ballet, and I don't speak Russian and I've never danced before, and I'm not flexible, I would not say that it would be a terrible failure if I didn't get in, right? Right.
Because I'm not going to get in. I have no chance of getting in, right?
Right. Whereas if I were 17 and I'd been studying dance for 12 years and I was amazingly flexible and I worked really hard, then we would feel every right to be disappointed if I didn't get in, right? Right.
The disappointment, you understand, comes from your certainty, your knowledge, that she can do amazing things.
You, together, all of you, right?
Right. That's the frustration.
Yeah, yeah. Right, so you're trying to put her down by saying you're embarrassed by her failures and her lack of success and her underachievement and so on, but you understand that that is mad praise, right?
Right. Because you're tortured by what could be achieved that's not being achieved, right?
Yes. And that's what's driving you crazy as well, which is knowing the amazing things that you could do, but like knowing you could be an amazing painter, but every time you pick a paintbrush up, you poke yourself in the eye, right?
Right. Drives you crazy.
Like, ah, I stopped poking myself in the eye.
I could do these beautiful paintings.
Right, right. But obviously she needs to show the compassion for you that she talks about feeling for the world, right?
You need to show the compassion for her to understand that you have also worked to create this situation, not because you're dumb, but because you're badly trained.
You thought up is down, black is white, right?
Right. And the frustration that you feel about underachievement could, with nurturing, with compassion, with empathy, with encouragement, do some absolutely amazing things, right? Yes.
I mean, tell me what's not possible, or what is possible if you guys work together with respect, with harmony, with consultation, with curiosity, with excitement.
Just... everything, everything that we've always wanted.
Right. Right.
And I completely agree.
I think that you are all stone geniuses.
And I think that you want to work together and you want to have this compassion, but the words were taught wrong.
Yeah. And you're right to feel this gap, right? I want you to respect and trust your instincts.
You are absolutely right to feel this gap between the goals that she proclaims and what is missing within herself.
Because you're totally right.
She is rushing off to negotiate without a translator.
It's worse than useless.
Yes. And you need to have a commitment, my suggestion is, If you want to get things done, you have to have a commitment to getting those things done, not to just doing what you feel is the right thing to do.
Right? So, if I want to drive from where I live to the West Coast, I have to go West, right?
Right. Now, if I end up taking a wrong term and going East, I need to check the map and turn around, right?
I need to be flexible because my goal is to get to the West Coast, not to drive down this street this way, right?
Right. So if what you're doing creates for you a future of unimagined imprisonment in underachievement, you need to change what you're doing.
Because you're not getting to the West Coast.
You need to check the map and you need to be flexible and you need to change your approach.
This goes for both of you, right?
If your goal is to create beauty and truth and do great things, and if what you're doing is not getting you there, then you need to sit down and say, okay, we're in this car together, let's check the map, let's check what we're doing, let's...
Right? Right.
But if you all just keep yelling at each other, you're not gonna...
The future you fear will come true because of that fear.
Yeah, that makes sense.
That's the majority of what I wanted to say, but I don't want to...
I neither want to, you know, say talk if you've got stuff to me all over, or don't talk if you have stuff to say, but tell me what would work for you.
I just, um...
I really appreciate actually being listened to and taken seriously, and...
I still feel this...
momentum.
But I know that what you're saying is right.
What is the momentum?
Momentum to just...
do the same thing, but it's like...
I... You can keep driving east until you fall into the sea of death.
That's your choice. Nobody's forcing you to change, right?
But if you choose not to change, you just get the same results, right?
I know, right. But sorry, I interrupted you.
I do apologize. Please go.
After I said, go ahead. I'm so sorry.
Go on. Yeah, I just...
I think that it's going to take a lot of...
of discussion with her about this to really start to change it, but I'm not sure if I can trust her.
Well, but you see, when you say that you're not sure that you can trust her, what you're doing is you're already backing away from the conversation and you're saying it's in her hands, right?
But the truth of the matter is that if you change what you are doing, The other person cannot possibly continue to do the same thing.
Right? They can.
It will change.
I absolutely guarantee you that it will change if you change.
Right. Like, I mean, if you've got two people pulling on a rope and one of them puts the rope down, can the other person keep pulling?
Of course not. No!
If you change what you're doing, the other person will have to change.
They simply cannot continue.
The interaction cannot continue if one person changes.
So if you're afraid that if you change she won't, that is impossible.
She will change and it has a lot to do with how you're going to change.
You have a huge amount of influence on what happens From here.
And don't worry. See, you can't control her.
You can't control her.
Maybe she'll respond and maybe she won't.
And if she responds positively, fantastic.
Couldn't be happier, right? And if she responds badly, then, you know, that's not so good, right?
And then you need to do what?
You need to try something else, right?
Right, of course. If you take a road and it doesn't get you going west, you just look at the map and take it right.
You have control.
Because the only way you won't have control, if she's just pathologically destructive and she just doesn't want to ever listen and doesn't want to achieve anything, right?
And, I mean, come on.
That's not the Colleen that I know.
Right. We don't ever say, I'm going to meet you halfway.
Right? Because that paralyzes...
Us. Because we can't ever get to halfway.
All we say is, I'm coming over to where you are.
Right. And that's what we do.
And then if the other person runs away, we say, I'm coming over to where you are again.
Because this is not an optional relationship.
You can't defoo yourself, right?
Right. I mean, you're in the boat together, right?
You can row together or you can hit each other with the oars, but you can't leave the boat.
Right? Right.
So there's persistence, patience and persistence, right?
We say, I'm coming over 100%.
And if we do that consistently and willingly and happily, even though I know it's sometimes difficult, the other person will warm up.
But don't put it on her.
Because the moment you put it on her, you will start to hedge your bets and you will start to give a percent more and see if another percent comes back and then it's not fast enough or it's not in the right way and then you pull back.
That's just going to waste time.
Right? Right, right.
You go 100% over.
I don't say to people who are having problems with their families, speak three truthful words next week, right?
Right. And see if your parents give you three truthful words back, right?
Right. No, I say open your heart completely to them.
Make every word honest.
Go 100% over to them.
And that's what you've got to do because you're going to look for outs because it's uncomfortable for you to be vulnerable because you are the scar tissue of having been attacked, right?
All of you as a child. So I totally understand.
It's the hardest thing in the world. Except for the alternative, which is to sit rocking yourself in this bitter cage until the end of time, right?
Right. So just no excuses, no half measures.
You go 100% over.
And if she rejects you, you sit there and say, what did I do wrong?
And you go 100% over again, and you keep going until you break through.
That's how you teach her to do it with the world.
Do you understand? You can take a leadership role here.
You can teach her, because you're all going to need the skill to save the world.
I know that. I can tell you that, right?
Yeah. So you show her.
If you're frustrated that she's not doing it, you show her how it should be done, how you reach out with compassion, even in the face of indifference.
Right. Even in the face of rejection and hostility, right?
Yes. Well, I mean, I really think I can do this.
And, yeah, I definitely just don't want to be wasting any more time No, you guys have too much to offer for that.
I completely agree. Okay, well, I mean, that's all I have to say.
I'm sure that you guys have stuff that you want to talk about amongst yourselves.
Is there anything else that you wanted to say just now?
Nope, that's about it.
All right, will you let us know how it goes?
For sure. And thank you again.
You're absolutely welcome and I will talk to you soon.
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