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Oct. 5, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:48:35
1168 Sunday Call In Show Oct 5 2008
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Well, thank you everybody so, so much for joining us.
This is the regular old Sunday show, October the 5th, 2008.
Just a brief, I guess, update to let people know.
I finally screwed both my courage and technical skills to the mat and did an analysis of the number of listeners.
It is a preliminary analysis and I haven't gotten all of the data, but...
But it looks like combining the free books with the podcasts, with the videos, with article readings, we are at about 25,000 podcast listeners.
Put all that other stuff together, and it's about 35,000 to 37,000 people that we are dealing with.
If you are a Diamond Plus donator, the more data is available on that forum.
In fact, I did an entire graph which shows...
From the data from the last three months, where the listeners are on the podcast continuum, which is, I guess we've got it from podcast zero to 1160.
I've counted how many podcasts are dinged in those three months, so we've got a nice, interesting wave graph to see where people are in the podcast continuum, which is hugely valuable, at least for me, in terms of planning and targeting.
There are a number of new current event topics.
I have found that the law of diminishing returns has gripped us in its ugly and vicious fist when it comes to advertising that it's diminishing returns.
The bounce rate has crept back up to the people who come and leave after one page to about 90%.
And so I've held off on advertising and instead I'm doing current events which seem to be Quite popular.
The latest is Sarah Palin of Bimbo is available at YouTube.
You can have a look at it there.
YouTube.com forward slash users forward slash StephBot.
Why? Because I'm an idiot when it comes to choosing my names.
I can't change the name now and I can't sign up for a new account because I will only get a 10-minute video, which, as you can imagine, would cause me to have to speak incredibly rapidly.
Well... More rapidly than...
It would sound like a fax, is what I'm saying.
So, I guess that's it.
The audiobook for How Not to Achieve Freedom is completed.
And thank you so much to the Diamond Plus donators who are kindly giving me feedback.
Like, Steph, quite often you sound like an electrified girl guide when you get excited.
But that's nothing new.
And, other than that, no other huge monster news going on at the moment.
Christina, of course, is here.
The baby says hello and is looking forward to a nice, comforting belly-fed nap while daddy drones on and on.
Probably not for the last time in his life.
So... Everything's fine.
We are looking to squeeze out the old pup at mid-December.
Well, and when I say we, I mean Christina will be doing the work.
I will be doing a good amount of fainting.
So that's going to be quite an exciting Kodak moment for us.
And we're looking forward to that.
So, I guess that's it.
Thank you so much to the women who participated, I shouldn't say, who led and controlled and ran the show last month.
I've gotten some very good feedback, enough positive feedback that I am gripped with jealous rage, which is a good sign for the quality of the show.
So, I say let's do it again, perhaps next week or the week after.
If you were so amenable, I would be more than happy to turn over the mic and continue to do my Ed McMahon babbling bad joke background act.
So that's something that's certainly on the table and I hope that you will do it again because I think it was just great.
So, again, Christine is here.
I'm here if you have questions, comments, issues, problems, wild rank praise, accent imitations, whatever you feel like.
We are all with the ears for you, the fabulous listeners, particularly you sitting right there who has donated.
So, thank you again for the donators to last month and the people who signed up to the $10 a month.
God, it's so little, it's embarrassing.
But I guess that would have been a good wage in 1820.
So... We are all ears if you have comments, questions, please.
Now is the time to grab your mic and bump them out.
I'm feeling kind of anxious thinking about this question, but how do you feel about expanding FDR?
I mean, expanding the viewership and pushing harder in that direction?
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question.
Do you anticipate new challenges that would come from expanding the listenership to a far broader audience than before?
Tell me what you mean.
Do you mean in terms of having unpleasant, difficult people come to the show?
Is that sort of what you mean, or is there something else?
I mean, that could possibly be it, but I mean, I guess, yeah.
And why is that?
Can you tell me why that's a question that would bubble up for you?
I'm just curious about that.
If we can just talk about the form rather than the content for a sec.
Okay. I'm just kind of wondering if you experience success anxiety or that sort of thing.
I mean, I don't detect it with you, but I'm just wondering if you do experience anything like that at all.
No, I'm thrilled.
I'm thrilled that the growth is occurring.
You know, at 6-10% growth a month, We are going to much more than double every year, which I think is fantastic.
It could take us to 70,000 listeners by this time next year.
140 and, you know, like that old thing where you put, you double the number of seeds on a chessboard and end up owning the solar system.
We will, I think, achieve total media domination by...
I guess the time the baby can talk.
So that should be very exciting because then there'll be a new host.
But no, I think it's fantastic.
The only concern that I've ever had in terms of expanding this show is to make sure that there's no temptation to compromise.
And I don't have any... Temptation to compromise.
For those who don't know, I was contacted by someone at CNN who saw a couple of the current events things and was interested in promoting me to show up there.
Of course the likelihood of that is very small.
It's not tempting to me to expand listenership at the cost of staying true to the principles of reason and evidence.
So I'm very happy to grow.
I don't feel any temptation to speed up the growth through compromise at all.
And that's simply because I'm very aware, and this may be something that you want to mull over, I guess, whoever is listening to this.
I'm very aware, like, if you think back at this ancient Greek civilization 2,500 years ago, had all these rich businessmen and slave traders and, you know, the beautiful people, beautiful women, amazingly successful athletes in the first Olympic Games, politicians, senators, military leaders, and so on.
And as far as it goes, when you think back...
That kind of time, as far as it goes, who do we remember from ancient Greece?
Well, we remember some of the historians, Herodotus and so on, and we remember maybe a couple of the military leaders, but only because they have been written down by people like Homer and so on, written about.
But mostly who we remember, of course, are the philosophers.
You know, over the span of 2,500 plus years, Who do we remember from ancient Greece?
Well, we remember Socrates, Diogenes, Democritus, Plato, Aristotle.
These are the people that we remember, the Stoics.
And so when it comes to longevity in the story of humanity, when it comes to depth and richness and returnability and persistence in the human story, Those who compromise for the sake of power and money are forgotten.
They fall off like a conveyor belt of history.
They just fall off into nothing.
Nobody remembers the name of any Roman senators.
Maybe you remember Caesar or Augustus, but you don't remember the Roman senators.
We don't remember the successful businessmen and athletes in the Roman times and Greek times.
Who we do remember are those who contributed something deep, rich, and meaningful to human thought and human experience.
And I'm aiming for that.
Rightly or wrongly, sanely or insanely, the permanent edifice is what I aim for because that is a firm step upon which humanity can climb to a higher state, a higher plane of being.
More sympathy, more depth, more richness, more compassion, more courage, more virtue.
That is what I want to try to do my best to add to the human story.
So... The people who sell out, I mean, maybe there were a bunch of philosophers who got in or were offered positions in the Greek government or the Roman Senate.
And they took those and they left talking to Socrates and they left studying at Plato's Academy and they tootled off to a realm of business and politics and thus joined the conveyor belt of inevitable falling off to nothingness as history grinds forward.
Those people are completely forgotten.
That's not... There's no wealth or power Or exposure or visibility that could possibly tempt me away from growing this thing in consistency with as much as possible with its founding roots of reason and evidence, philosophy, the fluid methodology of philosophy rather than any rigid or dogmatic conclusions.
So no, I don't experience growth panic and I think that's because we've built...
Our house on rock, not on sand or fantasy or delusions or politics or religion or academics or any of those other bad, false, sophistic things.
So, you know, we've built, we've got a great blueprint, we've got a great foundation, we've got great materials, we have a fantastic community of people just so admire and respect the people who talk and are vulnerable and positive and energetic.
And open in this conversation.
So there is no growth that could be dangerous to what it is that we're doing.
The only way that we could experience a danger would be if, and it would have to be me for the most part, but if I were to, CNN were to say, hey, we'd love to give you a philosophy show where you can reach millions of people a week, but you can't talk about religion and you can't talk about religion.
You know, can't be an atheist, can't be an anarchist.
Well, there was just no temptation.
There's no temptation. Because then I would actually have nothing to say.
And what would the money mean to me?
I mean, I'd like to think that my soul is worth more than the delusion of the truth for the sake of an exposure that will be forgotten in a year.
So no, I don't experience any growth anxiety.
I think we're growing just right.
I'm pleased that the methodologies that we used ahead of time turned out to be fairly accurate in terms of who was listening.
And so all of that I think is great.
I think we're growing just right.
I think that we have such quality listeners and participants in the community that we just can't go wrong.
People have just been amazing me, particularly over the last couple of weeks, with contributions, with growth, with honesty, with openness, with vulnerability.
It's hard to see when you're down in the trenches.
The view from where I am is just glorious and it's just, you know, absolutely staggering and wonderful, the leaps and bounds that the conversation is moving forward in.
So I don't feel any anxiety about the growth.
I'm just incredibly...
Grateful and privileged and moved to be a part of this or driving this or the core of this particular movement.
I mean, I'm just incredibly impressed and honored at the trust that people place in this methodology, in this conversation.
I'm amazingly impressed at the The fertility of the creativity that is going on with people.
The dream analysis, the honesty, the openness, the vulnerability, the problem solving, the conflict resolution, the mediation that's going on in the community.
God, it's beautiful!
And so, no, I think that the growth is just right.
I'm incredibly thrilled, happy, proud, and humbled by the genius that is in the community.
And so I just don't think that I don't think that we can go wrong, I don't feel any temptation to go wrong, and I'm glad that we struck gold so quickly.
Yeah, I'd probably ask that question because I certainly experience growth anxiety a fair amount.
Where is the growth occurring on your body?
Does it have hairs on it?
Does it wink? I think I'm finished with that for the most part.
Although I think I have grown more hair on my chest in the past year.
You should put that on the front page.
FTR will put hair on your chest.
Right. I think that the picture might not be, hey, that puts hair on your body.
That may be confusing for people.
Yeah, what a way to attract women.
Well, it's good, because we don't have the Eastern European women contingent that we really want.
So, what kind of growth anxiety do I experience?
Well, I assume that you're experiencing growth anxiety, which is why you're asking me, right?
Yeah, yeah. So tell me about yours.
I think I avoid things that will make me feel anxious about growing, especially with career stuff.
I have like 10 million excuses for not getting myself out there, for not pitching stories, for not just taking a day or two just to run with an idea and Try to get it published.
I just don't do it.
So is this a question about procrastination or something like that?
Or what do you think is at the root of your avoidance in this area?
No, I think it is kind of growth anxiety, and that's just why I was asking.
I don't know if it can be fixed in a call or something.
I think it's probably related to other stuff.
Well, what is the disaster scenario for you with regards to your career?
Like, what is the bad stuff that could happen that would be attended with success?
Not getting out there.
So I think the failure scenario would be not trying.
Sorry, what I mean is, with attendance, like, if you succeeded, what would be the disaster scenario there?
I think I would...
I don't know, I just feel anxiety thinking about it.
But I can't put a name to it.
I mean, my guess would be that, you know, it's related to my parents.
My parents certainly didn't want me to grow.
So attack would follow, is that right?
Yeah, but I'm not sure who would attack me.
Well, right now, it's you, right?
I mean, unless you're living in a pit with a bunch of ambition-attacking weasels, right, then it's you who would attack you at the moment, because your parents aren't there, right?
Yeah, so I guess that's what I must be afraid of, is that I'll self-attack if I'm successful.
But I don't know if that's empirically...
Well, let me first understand, because I feel that you're sort of beating around the bush here because you're a little confused, which I totally understand, right?
But first of all, tell me, why be successful?
What's the point? Why would you want that?
What's the upside of it for you?
Wow.
Thank you.
Okay. I think I want to be successful because I'll be attacked if I'm not successful.
Excellent. So you're in an attack slash attack junction, right?
So you go left, attack.
Go right, though, and you get attacked, right?
So this is sort of the...
So, of course, you're going to feel like paralysis, right?
Because it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't means freeze like a statue and hope something will change, right?
Oh, wow. Yeah, no, it's exactly like that.
Now I realize that I'm not motivated to be successful necessarily by something inward.
It's like I'm afraid of attack for not being successful and I'm afraid for being attacked for being successful.
But what is the definition of success?
Not in your chosen career, but in life.
Because that is the definition of success that we need to organize ourselves around.
So what is it for you to be a successful human being?
What does that look like? Just say over the next six months or so.
If at the end of six months you have achieved X, whether it's external or internal growth, or external rewards, internal growth, money, whatever it is...
What would that look like? What would success as a human being, as a thinker, as a feeler, as a philosopher, as a writer, what would that look like for you?
Okay, I'd like to have at least a few pieces published of some kind in a respectable New York paper.
Actually, just about anything in a publication that I would enjoy reading.
Would be something that would make me happy.
If I just get started, if I get in over the first couple of hurdles, then I think I'd be satisfied in the six-month time period.
And how long have you had that goal for?
A long time, and it took me till I started going to FDR to even start working as a writer.
But I started working as a writer, you know, getting paid for it, making a living, like, the day after I first started listening to your videos.
So it was unemployment to that.
And that was the first time that I'd ever taken the plunge.
And that's not because the quality of FDR is so high, but rather because the quality of FDR sucks.
And so what you probably did was you looked at the video and went, shit, if he could do it, Christ almighty, how hard can it be?
Suddenly the wall seems to be more like a curb.
That's what I want to mention.
No, not at all.
Okay, sorry, let me just understand this goal though, right?
Because if you've got a goal which you say is called success that's going to make you happy that you haven't really pursued, one of two things is the case.
It really only comes down to one of two things.
Either A, it would make you happy and you want to deny yourself happiness because you're mean to yourself or you don't believe you deserve it or whatever, right?
Or B, your body is saying or your ecosystem or your soul is saying...
That won't make us happy.
That's not success.
Hmm.
So tell me why you want to get...
And of course, I don't know, right?
But tell me why you want to get articles published in these respectable magazines.
You used the word respectable, right?
Yeah. So what do you respect about these magazines?
It's not necessarily respectable, it's just things that I would mostly enjoy reading.
So can you give me an example of a magazine or newspaper that you would...
Sure, like the New York Observer would be one that I'd target, that they publish new writers a fair amount of the time, young people.
Probably go for maybe the New York Press too.
And you respect those newspapers?
I mean, they publish some good stuff.
Like what? I'm just trying to understand.
I'm not saying you're wrong or anything.
Yeah, no, I mean, I like some of their views that they do, and arts, stuff like that.
That's where I think I'd jump into.
You mean so they publish movie reviews or theater reviews or gallery reviews that you...
Yeah, and music reviews and things like that that are well-written and that are entertaining.
Okay, so if you get articles published there, how is that going to make you happy?
Well, it's not necessarily going to be a cause of happiness, but it's a question of...
This is what I can do for a living, and I'm good at it, so why not...
Why do I feel so anxious?
Well, I think it's because you have a thing called success here that you haven't really pulled apart too much, right?
No, I haven't.
And that's totally fine. I mean, we all inherit these things called...
These ideas or these goals called success, right?
That success is... Getting to the top of your profession.
Success is the approval and financial rewards that come from being in demand.
That is success, right?
If you're going to be an actor, Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, you know, whatever.
Those are successful actors.
That is called being a success, right?
And we just have these things.
Whatever is the top of the pyramid, whatever is the top brick on the pyramid is called success, right?
And whatever gets you up the pyramid is successful.
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to set people on fire like some of the greatest writers that I've ever read have...
It set me on fire.
Okay, and what does that mean?
Can you give me an example of a writer who set you on fire?
Sure. Just reading Hunter Thompson's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
Really just.
It was just an incredible experience for me, just.
And would you consider Hunter Thompson a successful human being?
No. I mean, he was a disaster, right?
Yeah. A number of divorces, endless amounts of self-medication, a staggering list of drugs that he took every day, no stable personal relationships, obsession with violence and weapons, and he ended up killing himself, right?
Right. So...
No, it's not success, I guess.
But... Why do I feel guilty for being ambitious now?
Look, I have no problem.
Look, I've just talked about the maddest ambition to take my place in the pantheon of philosophers for all time.
I have no problem with ambition whatsoever, right?
I'm not saying it's good or bad.
I just, when you say, I want to be, like, this is success, and I want this, but you're not taking steps towards it, it means that there's some inconsistency which is worth pulling apart, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, that makes sense because I feel sad now.
Let me ask you this.
Have you asked yourself what is success?
Thank you.
No. Now, that's true of all of us, right?
I mean, this is not a question we're taught to ask.
We're told what is successful, right?
Success is lots of money, lots of fame, lots of books sold, lots of approval, lots of this.
Success is pretty much foundationally based upon the approval of others, right?
Yeah. But that's not the...
I mean, individuation doesn't lead you to that, right?
Because you're on the process of individuation, right?
Which is becoming who you are, genuinely, authentically, without outside prodding and poking, that you make your decisions not based on historical attacks or disapprovals or praises, but what you yourself spontaneously and genuinely find pleasurable and honorable, right? Right, and I get that feeling strongly.
I'm sorry, what I mean by that is that the templates that you're given for success by your family, by your culture, by your schools, is all about getting the marks, right?
Which, you know, in math and science is pretty objective, but otherwise it's not, right?
Not pleasing the teacher, right?
Echoing back the prejudices to get the decent marks, right?
Right. So it means that the templates for success that you have been handed would only serve you if you didn't individuate, if you didn't become who you really are.
Because when you become who you are, you get to invent yourself, right?
Or you get to discover and invent yourself.
The discovery and the invention is the same thing, right?
And the templates that you've been handed won't work, right?
So you're kind of going in two different directions.
One is towards real self-authenticity, and the other is towards the following or the obeying of external punishments and rewards that come from some pretty not-good people in your past, right?
True. And that must be where I'm having...
having trouble because I don't know.
I guess the more abstract goal I had several months ago was just continue writing and get paid.
And that doesn't feel like it's enough anymore.
Thank you.
Right, right, right.
Not because...
It's just because I know I can do more.
It doesn't... If you write a good article, you write a good movie review or something like that as well, written, it's snappy, it's intelligent, it's readable, it's whatever, right?
Yeah. And people like it, you get paid for it and so on.
What is valuable to you about that?
I feel like I've connected with the audience, the people that read it.
Thank you.
Okay, and what is valuable about that?
It feels nice to connect with people because historically I've had a huge amount of trouble connecting with other people.
But of course, if you're trying to connect with someone to fill a hole in yourself, so to speak, it's not really connecting, right?
Right, it's not. And look, you're doing great.
These are really tough questions to answer.
But I think they're essential to ask in terms of what it means to be successful.
Right?
Right. Newt Hampson wrote a book called Hunger, which is a terrifying and fascinating work about his time starving in some, I think it was a Norwegian city in the 1930s or whatever.
A beautifully written book.
Guy was completely miserable though, right?
And of course, Norman Mailer, right?
Tropic of Cancer and these kinds of books.
Guy stabbed his wife.
Yeah, he was totally messed up. Yeah, Guy stabbed his wife.
And he wrote a poem which says, as long as you still are only using a knife, there is still some love left.
Right? I mean, it's like, I mean, oh my god, what a complete nightmare existence, right?
I mean, the list could go on and on, right?
I mean, Catrin the Rye Guy hides out in some town, never gives any interviews.
Yeah, so... Eugene O'Neill, who we talked about before, same kind of absolutely miserable, wretched life.
Tennessee Williams, a loveless life where he was terrified of choking to death, ended up choking to death on a bottle cap, I guess a medicine cap.
I mean, you could go on and on, right?
But in terms of the glories of artistic creation, it's almost always attendant, it seems, with a significant amount of personal misery.
And that, I don't think, can be considered something to aim for.
That, to me, is the ultimate altruism, right?
That, yes, I'm producing great work, but I'm miserable.
I mean, that's social metaphysics of the worst kind, I think.
That's not what I'd like to do.
I mean, I'd like to communicate about ideas and use my writing as a means to get people interested in them.
Right, so to write about the stimulation of people's thinking, virtue, curiosity, and interest in philosophy, or whatever the truth.
I'm not trying to impose a philosophical agenda.
I'm just trying to understand if that's what you mean.
Yeah, no, that is what I mean, and that's part of why I'm interested in getting to culture, because I think it's one of the primary interactions of culture.
Values is how it affects your perception of culture and art.
Now, what do you think the dominant philosophy is in the places that you're trying to get into?
These are the New York Post and these kinds of things.
They're nihilistic.
Yeah, they're nihilistic, they're relativistic, they're postmodern.
I mean, that would be the typical...
I mean, that's the default position, right?
Yeah. Do you think they're going to have any trouble recognizing who you are and what you understand and know?
No, nobody has ever had any trouble recognizing what I am.
Right, so the more that you become who you are, right, which is who we are relative to reality and truth, not the bigotries and opinions of others and punishments and rewards of a corrupt system.
And actually, what I remember from college is that the better work I would produce, the more trouble people would give me.
Oh yeah, for sure. That's certainly been the case with me as well, right?
I mean, the better I became as a writer, the more people were thrilled about what I was writing and the less interested they were in publishing me.
It was a natural, inevitable progress.
So, the more you dedicate yourself to truth and reason, the harder it's going to be to crack.
The hostilities of others, right?
Of those who are sort of in power, so to speak.
Yeah. So do you think that's what I'm feeling, or...?
Well, I don't know, but I mean, I think if you say, I would like to get published in these places, and I want to talk about truth, reason, and virtue, and these people are all nihilistic relativists, I think that there's an equation that doesn't work, right?
Yeah. Even if you're indirect about it, they're still going to pick up on it.
Well, in fact, the more indirect you are about it, the more they're going to pick up on it.
Oh.
Yeah.
You can't smuggle yourself.
I mean, because everyone's a genius, everybody's a philosopher, we all get each other in about 10 or 20 seconds.
So there's just no possibility, right, that you're going to be able to hide it from people.
There's no anarchist who's accidentally slipped through this net, right?
Thank you.
Thank you.
There's no mainstream media who has accidentally published an article on a stateless society not knowing that it was, right?
Yeah. I feel like my illusion is being taken away.
I feel crappy. Well, if it's an illusion, then there's nothing to take away, right?
It's like saying, you're stealing my counterfeit money.
Yeah, there's nothing to lose.
And what that means, it doesn't mean anything to do with hopelessness, right?
I know it may feel that way, but it means that, you know, when you become authentic, the only option is entrepreneurship.
Yeah. That's true.
So rather than looking for other people to get you where you want to be, when you become who you are, you simply have to get yourself there and bring as many people as you can with you, right?
Yeah, you just have to create it for yourself.
And one of the...
How come...
Are these questions you would ask to somebody who's talking about becoming the best electrician they want to become or something like that?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I would say, well, why?
You know, why? What does it matter?
What does quality mean to you?
Like, I was talking with a guy, this was last year, a guy who came up for the FDR salon that we had.
And he was saying, you know, my dad's a total perfectionist.
Everything has to be great quality.
And he would yell at me when I got things wrong and so on, right?
And I was like, well, does your dad's definition of great quality include great quality fatherhood?
Being a great quality parent?
Right? And that's a fundamental question because people will often use this concept of quality to bully other people, right?
And you may be using this concept of traditional lines of success to bully yourself, right?
Right. Yeah, well, it's something that I'm holding over myself.
Right, so the electrician who says, I want to be the best electrician ever, it's like, well, why?
I mean, that's a reasonable question to ask, and I think it's something we need to ask of ourselves, you know?
I want to do X. Why?
Not because we're wrong about it.
But because it's very important to know why.
I mean, when we go in particular directions, we take half a decade easily.
It's a big chunk of time, right?
I mean, if you said, I'm going to get published by these New York magazines or New York newspapers, and you really threw yourself in, it would take you half a decade to figure out if it was possible, right?
At least. Yeah.
And if it turned out to be an illusory goal, that's five years of your life that not only do you not get back, but you lie broken and regretful and self-loathing at the end of, right?
Is that why I haven't even started to try, really?
Well, this is the curiosity with the self, right?
Where you sit down with yourself, right?
You get everyone around the table and you say, dudes!
What am I missing here, right?
Why do I keep saying, we're shipping out, and everyone goes like, yeah, yeah, whatever, right?
Because they may know more than you about the viability of this goal, right?
Because when you get everyone in yourself in alignment, right, when the ecosystem is all facing the same direction, there's nothing you can't do, right?
I mean, you're half a percentage point away from being able to levitate, right?
Right. But if you just simply say, in order to avoid anxiety, I'm going to take this predetermined path towards something called success that my parents told me about.
Right? Then the MECO system just remains profoundly unimpressed.
It's like, yeah, yeah.
You can do all your anxiety management, but don't expect our help, right?
We don't care. Right.
That's totally a non-starter.
Right. Right, because then all we end up doing is we end up becoming bad parents to ourselves, like our parents want us to do something for their anxiety, right?
Dress up for church, you know, be nice to your grandmother, or whatever, right?
And we're like, I don't care.
Like, maybe you can force me to do it, but I'm not going to get engaged, right?
Yeah, this is just like the various tasks my dad would give me.
Yeah, yeah, now you've got this task called, you know, not just mow the lawn perfectly, but get published in these prestigious...
Magazines, right? Because then what you have is a story called success.
You can say to people, I'm a writer and I've been published in the New York Post.
And people go, ooh, I guess you are, right?
Yeah.
So it's for the uninitiated to be impressed, right?
Ouch.
was that emotional or an electrical shock um so you think it's just uh narcissism No, no. Don't put these self-attacky labels on, man.
Right? Yeah.
I thought it more along the lines of sneaking things in.
Well, as long as you can find some way to paint yourself in a negative way, I'm happy, right?
Whether it's sneaking in or narcissism or laziness or I'm not dedicated or whatever, right?
I'm too distracted, I'm whatever.
It doesn't have to be any of those things, right?
It's just simply that your creative energies are not interested in your goals, right?
No, they're certainly not.
So you can either keep yelling at the horse that's not getting up, right?
Or you can say to the horse, okay, let's negotiate.
Where can we go?
Right.
Yeah.
You're not in charge. I'm not in charge.
Christina is. But you and I, we're not in charge, right?
I can't make myself do a good podcast.
I can't make myself write a hit song.
I can't make myself write a beautiful poem.
I can't make myself...
It's not a matter of willpower, right?
Yeah. No, it's not.
So in order to keep your creative energies alive, and I'm aware of this just because of the 15-year rule, like most artists have 15 years that they have creative times.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, is that if I don't do it now, it's never going to happen.
But you can't do it!
I know. You can't do it, right?
So I'm at the tail end of my 15 years, right?
Because I started writing in my mid-20s.
Revolutions I wrote when I was in my early mid...
23, 24. So I'm actually...
I'm past that, right?
Which is one of the reasons why I had to reinvent myself and go to philosophy and away from art.
But I'm aware of that 15-year rule that without...
The fertility of new ideas and new things that keep you excited, your creativity will decline and you will be, you know, post-Day of the Race is Queen or some other thing like that, right?
Yeah, it's like I pissed away 18 to 21.
No, I didn't piss away 18 through 19, but I pissed away 19 through 21 and 22.
Now, JC, why are you trying to irritate me?
I'm sorry for irritating you.
Why? Why are you doing this to me?
Come on, what are you doing? I mean, how many times have I chided you for self-attacks in this conversation?
Several times. Now, when you say, I pissed away this, right?
How do you think that's going to land for me?
Okay, I feel...
I feel anxious, and that's why I'm self-attacking...
Well, look, clearly that's not your language, right?
I bet you dollars to donuts, that's your dad, right?
Pissed away? Oh, that's him, actually, yeah.
Yeah, I guarantee that is not a phrase that comes from your fertile, gentle, and courageous self, right?
Yeah, it's one of his things.
Yeah, just piss away your time, right?
I mean, you're actually quite a gentle human being, right?
So this harshness is not you, right?
No. But if you have a story called, I pissed away these years, then of course you're going to end up feeling like you're behind the curve and you've got to catch up and you've got to force yourself to do stuff and you've got to bully and it becomes more hysterical and it escalates.
I mean, that's no fun, right?
And that's certainly not going to give you the kind of relaxed creativity that is going to be sustainable, right?
Yeah, but anytime I've ever actually done something, it's just been, oh, okay, then I do it.
Right. So, I mean, my suggestion is to de-escalate the language and to open yourself up to the possibility that success as a human being is something that you have to negotiate and explore with yourself, with self-RTR, with curiosity, with openness, with gentleness.
Because success is something that you simply cannot impose upon yourself.
You can try, you can do whatever, you can do all of that stuff, but it doesn't work.
I feel freed up a bit.
You mean I got one of the elephant's feet off your chest?
There's still three more there and you're afraid it's going to fall over now, right?
Yeah. No, just the whole coming up with abstract goals that are kind of abusive.
Maybe not just kind of.
It doesn't matter whether you get published in the New York Post.
It matters whether you eat or not.
I mean, I'm with you there, right?
You've got to be basically responsible.
Yeah. But it doesn't matter.
The only statistically, scientifically proven way to be happy is to do good.
Not to get published, not to compromise, not to make money, not to have lots of friends, not to bed lovers, not to have children, not to get married.
The only statistical and scientific way to become happy is to do good.
Reason equals virtue equals happiness.
So success is virtue.
And virtue has a lot to do with gentleness and firmness and kindness and courage.
Therefore, JC, when you self-attack, you're being abusive.
And it is as abusive as if you were kicking a dog or sticking a fork up the ass end of a cat.
It is not virtuous to self-attack.
It is an ugly, nasty, vicious thing to do to yourself.
And it is exactly the same as hitting a child.
We have to have that as a standard.
We have to have that as a standard.
We can't say that we should protect the vulnerable, like children, but we should attack ourselves.
It's a complete contradiction.
So the first virtue One is honesty.
The second one is kindness and gentleness and curiosity towards the self.
Self-attack is immoral, in my opinion.
I'm not going to make this case like it's illegal, but it is a wrong action.
It will lead to unhappiness, and it will also lead you to behave badly with other people, right?
And I'm not attacking you for self-attacking.
I mean this with all genuine sympathy that this is a habit.
That you internalized as a result of external attacks.
But when you self-attack, I think that we need to have this so fundamental within ourselves that when we self-attack, we have to stop it in the same way that if we found ourselves yelling at a child, we'd have to stop it, right?
Alright, you got my attention.
My eyes are open. I'm lighter.
Because you can't create a goal called success, happiness, peace of mind through the mechanism of self-attack.
That's like saying, I'm going to punch my wife into loving me, right?
Yeah. Self-attack is a line that we just have to draw in the sand and say, I don't cross this line.
And if I do, I stop.
I stop exactly what I'm doing.
I figure out how I started and I undo it.
You know that meditation, right?
You go down the stairs, you talk to the kid, right?
That's who you're punching. That's who you're slapping.
That's who you're screaming at. That's who you're snapping at.
That inner child is who you are railing against when you self-attack.
And there's no meditation which says, the moment he trusts you, slap him across the face, right?
Well, I better watch out.
This is the NAP. Non-aggression principle is always first with the self.
Because you can't aggress against others unless you have first aggressed against yourself, right?
You can't. So if we want to be virtuous, the non-aggression principle has as its foundation respect for the self.
And that doesn't mean, like, we never self-criticize.
That doesn't mean, like, we don't try and improve.
But we don't do it through abuse, right?
My kid is going to make mistakes.
I'm going to make mistakes.
As a parent, my kid is going to make mistakes.
You know, if he writes down 2 plus 2 is 5, I'm not going to call him an idiot, right?
Actually, my math skills are such that I'd probably say, hey, way to go.
Let's play some video games. But we can get back to that.
But I will say, well, that's not correct.
And, you know, here's how I would sort of step through it.
You let me know what you think and, you know, whatever, right?
So we can correct and we can review and we can improve.
But never through self-attack.
Never through abuse. Because it won't work.
It throws us back. It adds to the ugliness of the world.
It creates discontent and frustration and irritation within ourselves.
It renders us... Uncomfortable with their own skin.
You know, like we are the height of a cactus turned inwards.
We can't find a comfortable position.
We can't relax. We're always waiting for that next cougar to pounce out from the rocks, right?
That is not a state that we can bring relaxed and positive and happy virtue into the world.
We just can't. All we're doing is bad things to ourselves, which means eventually we're going to do bad things to others, which then adds more fuel to the fire of self-attack, right?
We say, oh, I pissed away these years, right?
And then you feel down about yourself.
You can't expect warm, positive, happy, virtuous creativity to flow out of yourself when you're using that kind of language against yourself.
And therefore, you end up being stalled, which further adds to the fuel of self-attack, right?
Yeah, but I didn't even waste those years.
If I didn't have those years, then I wouldn't have been able to be creative at all.
Well, let's say you did waste them.
Let's say you did, quote, piss them away.
Attacking yourself now only causes you to piss away more time in the present, right?
Right. And anything successful that I've done has not resulted, has not been caused, has not come out of self-attack.
Right, right. The foundation for a free world in the future is based on our refusal to aggress against ourselves.
A stateless society is based on our refusal to aggress against ourselves.
It's the primary duty, if you want to say duty, right?
The primary duty of a moral human being.
That which is necessary but not sufficient for real virtue, right?
I mean, if I date a girl and I don't beat her up, she may not love me, we may not end up getting married, but if I do beat her, there's no possibility of that, right?
Right, none at all. So, it's the very first thing, right?
It's the very first thing is to not abuse the people that you're with, including yourself, right?
I mean, if you have a girlfriend in the future, and she, I don't know, eats Malamar's all weekend and watches American Idol, and you say to her, well, you just pissed away your weekend, didn't you?
Right there. What a waste.
I mean, that would be pretty horrible, right?
You're right. As opposed to saying, tell me what your experience of the weekend was.
I mean... Maybe she said, oh man, my head was so cluttered.
I just completely vegged out.
I feel a lot better. Or she'd say, you know, I just felt sad.
I wanted to avoid things, right?
You just open curious, right?
Correct.
That's what works.
And that's what works with you.
And you can't do it with someone else if you're doing it to yourself.
You can't be gentle with other people if you're attacking yourself.
You just can't. Or you'll be that kind of weird, inconsistently gentle person, you know, where one time you're like nice and then the next time you're not.
I mean, that's...
You know, they found actually that the worst post-traumatic stress disorder from childhood comes from those people whose parents were the lovers and haters, you know?
I love you! I hate you!
I love you! I hate you!
Those people get the most messed up, right?
So it's the consistency of virtue that is the most important.
Yeah, that's my parents.
Yeah, even a consistency of vice is less traumatic than an inconsistency of virtue for children.
Right, because it's not predictable.
Right, and you bond with corruption, right?
And of course, when somebody's inconsistently virtuous, you end up blaming yourself for when they're behaving badly, because they've shown they can behave well.
Yeah, and I was like that too.
I just got to say, you have to look at yourself like a tender and dependent child, lover, pet, you know, whatever works for you.
But self-attacks just got to come out of the vocabulary.
And it doesn't mean that you say it and immediately it's true.
We all slip into it. We do.
But it has to be a standard that it is not acceptable behavior.
It's not acceptable with other people, and it sure as hell is not acceptable with yourself.
Because other people can leave you, right?
But you can't leave yourself, so it's even worse when you self-attack yourself.
That is direct equivalent to self-attacking a dependent child, right, who can't leave.
It's just like that.
It's exactly like that, which is why it reproduces in the family.
It was hard for me to see it because the self-attack was a structure.
Yeah.
It's a structure.
It's not even just a coherent voice.
It's like a house or a building.
Right. And for you, it's mixed in with the concept of quality, right?
Because your dad was like, run!
And you'll go faster, right?
He'll yell at you, right? Yeah.
Quality results from abuse, right?
That's the boot camp mentality in the military, right?
Yeah. Well, quality does not result from abuse.
Right, quality is the opposite of abuse.
The reason that people say quality results from abuse is they damn well know it doesn't, which means that they get to continue to abuse you as much as they want.
Yeah, thanks, because I couldn't see it from the inside.
You sound about as thankful as an imminent amputee.
I'm not saying you should be, I'm just trying to understand where you are emotionally.
I'm a little...
I'm not...
I'm not sure where to go.
Yes, you are. Sorry to be annoying.
Yes, you are. Yeah, I'm sure something with me knows, but I don't...
I don't see the yellow brick road anymore.
Well, that's because you have a goal.
You had a former goal that was dependent upon the achievement of external markers, right?
I'm published here. I'm making this much money.
I get this person's approval, right?
Yeah.
But what I'm saying is you need to earn your own approval.
You need to act virtuously towards yourself and gain the approval and respect of yourself, of your selves, of your ecosystem, of your inner of your selves, of your ecosystem, of your inner child.
You need to earn the trust and respect of the tender, sensitive, courageous, and powerful aspects of yourself by acting in a protective and nurturing manner towards yourself.
I mean, if you were in a marriage and you were yelling at your wife and calling her terrible names or whatever, then the first thing a marital counselor would be saying then the first thing a marital counselor would be saying is, well, don't do that.
I don't know what else we're going to do yet, but don't do that.
That has to stop. That is not possible.
And if you're not willing to stop that, there's no possibility that marital therapy is going to work.
If you're not going to stop calling each other names, if you're not going to stop abusing each other, there's nothing else that can be done.
That, I don't know what else we're going to do, it might be two-year therapy, but that behavior has got to stop.
Not later, but now, today, this moment.
Yeah.
Now, what comes out of that, we don't know, right?
I mean, although I guarantee it's good things, right?
But what I'm saying is, there's no point trying to do something good until you stop doing something that's bad, which is self-attack, right?
You've got to clear away that self-laceration.
We don't know where a bird is going to fly, but if it's pecking at itself in the mirror, we know where it's not going to fly, right?
which is anywhere else, right?
Yeah, wow.
Wow.
I do feel sad.
I do feel sad.
I feel a little lost, too, still.
That's good. I mean, I think both those feelings are entirely accurate.
You feel sad, I would guess, because...
This is what we've always wanted, right?
right is to be nurtured and encouraged and protected and respected and not attacked, right?
So you're leaning over the volcano of the impact of this abuse, right?
Right.
Yeah. Looking at the hole, right?
I feel like I'm lost in the woods, actually.
I'm alone in the woods. Right, right.
Right, well, because, I mean, I'm guessing, right?
but you don't have a map that is drawn to you by other people, which says, if you follow this path, I won't attack you much.
Yeah.
Not right now, but we just talked about tearing up the map that was given.
Yes, for sure. That was tattooed on me.
Right. And before you start with a new direction, you have to, I think, develop and earn the self-trust of backing away from this tendency, this habit.
We all have it. I mean, this is with sympathy.
This is from no ivory tower of perfect self-regard, right?
But I am very, very aware.
And for a time, I actually had it posted on my monitor.
No self-attack. Post it up.
Make it your screensaver.
Make it your wallpaper background.
Just keep reminding yourself.
No self-attack. Nothing good comes from abuse.
Nothing positive.
Nothing loving. Nothing creative.
Nothing beautiful. Nothing honorable.
Nothing courageous. Nothing noble comes from abuse.
Only fear and hiding, self-bullying, self-control, manipulation.
That is all that comes.
That is the only blood that flows from the crushed child of self-abuse.
Yeah, I'm starting to see that pretty clear just going over the past few years of my history.
Okay, well, I'm going to stop here.
Unless there's anything else that you wanted to add, I would strongly suggest doing that...
Do that meditation, if you don't mind taking the RX. Do that meditation and ask that kid when you see him what his experience of you is.
Oh, I've never talked to that kid.
Yeah, well, you know, he's got a seat at the table too, right?
In fact, child is the father of the man, right?
You should do more listening than talking to him.
But ask him, what is my experience?
What is your experience of me?
Do you like me? Do you respect me?
Do you feel nurtured and protected by me?
Do you want to spend time with me?
Do I frighten you?
I know the answers to those questions.
I bet you do, but I think it's important to have that conversation, in my opinion.
Okay, I'm going to stop here because I don't want to keep pulling you through something that you've already gotten.
So thank you, magnificent courage and dedication.
This is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of this call, just how brave and honorable people are in this conversation.
Hugely, hugely appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. And let us know how the meditation goes.
I do it now. I mean, now.
Not later. This is recorded.
Don't worry. Do it now.
Okay. I'll do it now. Thanks, man.
All right. I'm going to hang up then.
Righto. And I am going to...
Christina has given me some more meditations.
The first one I've been reading is interesting.
I will bathe more.
I will stop scratching myself on camera.
I will trim my nose hairs.
I will shave both sides of my face.
Just so I don't look like half a pirate.
So I have a meditation.
It may be a little bit more specific for me, but I think most of the men in the...
I will research foreplay.
There's lots of things that are in the meditation that I think could be very helpful for other people.
So... Is there anything you wanted to add to that, sweetie?
Research? Okay, write about it.
Foreplay, it's not just an annual event.
Anyway, so do we have other questions or comments or issues?
We are more than happy.
If you'd like to ask something from Christina, that would be fantastic, because I'd like to eat.
Go for it, people! Hello.
Hello. Yeah, this is Paul.
I would like to talk to Christina.
I'm finding myself in sort of a transition zone, having made some major changes to my life.
This week I signed the legal documents for the marriage separation.
And I'm kind of treading out onto the thin ice of, you know, what's the next best step for me to grow?
And I'm thinking that maybe some kind of therapy would help me.
Do you have any advice you can give?
Hi, Paul. I think I need a little bit more information before I can offer any advice.
Oh honey, don't worry about that.
Just start talking. Oh wait, sorry, you know what you're doing.
Sorry, that's different. No, I don't know if you are familiar.
One of the premium podcasts was kind of my life story with my mystical mother and I was married to a mystical wife for 14 years.
I think there was some mention of this at the conference in Florida.
She basically was a narcissist and had a horrible childhood and just got sucked under.
I have nothing but pity for her.
But being as it was, I needed to examine, well, why did that seem like such a good idea to get involved with someone like that?
And I started to explore some of those things with Steph.
And so I'm just trying to...
You know, discover what my next step would be or what sort of road to travel from a personal standpoint.
I'm very happy to be, you know, promoting FDR and doing all these great things.
And that's going to be my avocation until such time as Liberty really arrives.
I do understand that life is really all about our own personal journey and how much joy and pleasure we can get because that's only about as much as we can share.
So I'd like to maximize that both for my own selfish reasons and for also to make me a better person to be with, which I can see needs some improvement.
I have not listened to the premium podcast that you speak of, although I do know, I mean, I certainly remember you, Paul, and I am familiar with some of the details of your marriage.
You said that you were going to try and promote liberty in whatever ways that you can, promoting FDR, that sort of thing.
Liberty, first and foremost, starts with ourselves.
We need to have freedom within our own lives.
I do think, you know, you're looking at what do I need to do to move forward at this point, and I would say before you can actually move forward, you need to look at the past, which I think is the question that you're asking me, like, how do I do that?
Where do I go from here?
Is that correct? Yeah, I guess what's indicating to me is the fact that since a clear direction, clear actions are not appearing to me, That I'm getting that as, well, you know, that's telling me that maybe I'm not ready to go down that road without handling something else.
So, I mean, there are times when I get real clarity about this is what I need to do and I just, you know, jump all over it.
Obviously getting out of that relationship was something I needed to do and I jumped all over it.
And now it's like, okay.
So I'm looking for the next bit of clarity and I'm thinking, well, if I'm not seeing it right away, then that's telling me I need to look somewhere.
So when you say you jumped all over getting out of the relationship, you just signed the separation agreement papers, I'm assuming that's different than divorce.
Yeah, and I guess I'm doing this one step at a time in the fact that we have this house that we can't really sell right now, you know, Well, we chose not to sell it because of taking the financial bath on it.
So I'm going to assume that either you or she has moved out of the house, or you've both moved out of the house?
Yes, I'm moved out, and she is still there.
And she's still there.
And she still runs her business out of there.
And do you still have regular contact with her?
Well, we had regular contact as a result of having to work out these details and I'm still winding down my involvement in the technical side of her business.
But I'm feeling like that's...
I'm seeing that from a whole different perspective now.
I'm not feeling sucked into...
I don't feel really totally at effect like I used to.
So I can talk to her knowing that I really have my own power back.
And I can see, you know, how her behavior is really whacked out.
But I can just look at it more objectively and go, oh, that's an interesting invitation to go nuts, you know, which I will happily sidestep, you know.
And she's aware that she can't really do anything outrageous, you know, hostile.
So she's actually, on the surface, quite pleasant.
And I understand that's just a surface thing, but that's all I need to deal with now.
And so you're in your own place and you still have some minimal contact with her.
You're winding down your connection with her and her business and eventually you would like this to proceed to full divorce.
Yes, that road is fairly clear.
That road is clear. I know where I'm going.
Her kids are still seeing her.
I have a good relationship with them.
And they acknowledge that, you know, she's extremely problematic, and, you know, they totally sympathize with me, and I don't get an ounce of problems, you know, from them.
But at the same time, you know, they're still willing to hang around her and have her kids hang around her, and that's something I'd like to work on, you know, but one thing at a time.
But... So, yeah, there's...
No, go ahead. I was just going to say, so from a practical standpoint, I mean, sort of the to-dos are taken care of at this particular point.
I mean, sometimes we can't get to the next step until we've sort of taken care of the actual practical details of life, like the getting out of the house, finding your own place, signing the separation papers...
your involvement in our business, those kinds of things.
And if those things are already in place, or if they're not already in place, then it might be difficult to move into the next step until you take care of those details. - Well, they're not all done, but the path to those mechanical things, as I call it, just the actions of but the path to those mechanical things, as I call it, just the actions
And I suppose I will feel better once we dispose of the house in some way and I really don't have any...
You know, connection with her.
I'm sure that will be, will feel even better.
But I don't really feel like I want to put my life on hold while I'm waiting for all this stuff to process.
And I don't feel like, I mean, there's some instances where, you know, people just have to, you know, whatever the cost is.
I mean, I know, I mean, if somebody's living at home and they're being, you know, I don't really feel I'm in that kind of situation, but I don't know, maybe I'm rationalizing something.
Maybe I looked at the idea of, well, just insist on selling the house and just get it out of the way.
I just see that as being more trouble than it's worth at the moment.
I mean, if you're not forced to pay the bills for both the house and your own place right now, she's living in the house and is managing to pay the bills, and it's not putting any extra strain on you, then you can let that go for a little while.
Well, it is putting extra strain on me, because I am paying...
I mean, there are...
We have people renting rooms, so that cuts down the amount of costs, but...
You know, as long as I'm still half owner of the house, I'm responsible for half the bills.
So the bills are split in half and then the income is also split in half.
But, you know, basically I'm paying two rents, you know, plus I'm paying her spousal support.
So, yeah, that's an impact.
Wow, I think the laws here in Ontario are a little bit different than they are in California.
I think we lost. Are you there?
I'm still here. Okay, great.
At least my little green line is working.
Okay, great. Yeah, I just, I mean, I find it astounding that you would have to continue to pay for the house when you're not living there.
Anyway. Well, I mean, my only other option would be to sign it off to her as an asset But, you know, there's very little equity in it right now.
I mean, the agreement we had worked out was that, you know, I would trade my half of the equity in the house for her relinquishing her half of my retirement income.
But since, you know, there's nothing to...
I have nothing to offer as far as equity goes, you know, That's why we're hanging on to the house until the market recovers.
Right, right. So it seems like you've made some decisions in this area, right?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so these things, these sort of details right now are, you know, I mean, there's some strain and some stress associated with it, but you're sort of settled in the decisions that you've made.
It's bearable, and I know it's temporary.
And, you know, one of the things that I feel good about is that this agreement now has a date on it where it expires.
So these payments will cease at a date certain, which is written down and signed off on.
Wonderful. So I guess at this point, what is your emotional state?
Well, I'm relieved.
I feel...
I mean, I'm happy that I have, you know, a few friends who I've been able to share this with and who give me support.
And that feels good.
But I guess I'm...
I guess it really did hit me, that conversation I had with Steph.
And I'm really looking at this idea of, you know, While I have close friends, I really would like to find somebody who I can really have a deep, committed relationship with that I can really share, you know, to live with.
And, you know, one of the reasons I stayed in that relationship so long was because I had the apparency of closeness, and that was like a drug to me.
And, you know, not having that is...
I'm really noticing the hole.
And I want to resist the impulse to, you know, find another relationship just to fill it, to manage my emotional state, and basically use someone else for my purpose.
I don't want to do that.
So I guess what I'm feeling is a bit of loneliness mixed with a bit of optimism and relief.
So as a rule, I'm not really doing bad.
I guess I have what's called a way of explaining mental states.
I call it the AGC effect.
You know, it comes from electronics for the automatic gain control.
We tend to label things In other words, I could be much worse off, but the fact that I'm actually much better off than I was, and much better off than I could be...
Right, but now you've got to face the loneliness that was an inherent part of the marriage.
The gain on that has been brought up to the point that that's now what I'm looking at.
I'm going, who is this person that I'm going to spend...
I don't know who this person is.
Sorry, the person that you're going to spend the rest of your life with?
Yeah. I would start first, Paul, with asking, who am I? Thank you.
You can't ask for who is this person I'm going to spend the rest of my life with until you've explored the question, who am I? And that also means looking at the past 14 years, and I'm sure you have to some extent.
You said very clearly I was there because I had the illusion of closeness and connection.
But now that I know that it wasn't real, that it was an illusion, why did I allow that illusion?
To continue for 14 years.
It may not have been the case 14 years ago that you weren't connected or close, but certainly at the latter part of your marriage, you felt that.
And what aspects of yourself allowed that to happen?
And so this is, you know, you said that earlier, I don't know if you're in therapy right now, but these are exactly the kinds of things that you can explore with a therapist.
Why would I end up in a relationship with someone that I didn't respect, that I didn't admire, where I felt close but it was an illusion, where my needs weren't getting met?
What does that say about me?
Yes, that sounds like where I need to go.
So now you're facing the loneliness, and this is very typical for people.
They will end a long-term relationship where they have been lonely for a long time.
Their loneliness will suddenly become evident when they're no longer in the relationship, and then they will jump into a new relationship to fill that void.
And I would say that that's the wrong thing to do.
I recognize the wisdom of that.
Right. It's hard to fight the impulse, though.
Yes. But I see the ultimate truth.
What we don't want to do is we don't want to recreate the past mistakes.
And if you jump into another relationship, and I know that you're trying very hard not to do that, you need to explore that relationship and you need to explore yourself.
So that you don't end up with another long-term relationship or even a short-term relationship where your needs are not getting met and where you're not able to meet the other person's needs.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that feels better.
I guess some of this was just sort of like me churning myself, maybe doing a little self-attack.
You know, wondering why I wasn't figuring this all out instantaneously.
It feels good to hear that, well, yeah, I'm actually in the place I'm supposed to be, kind of doing pretty much what I need to be doing.
Look, you just spent 14 years in a marriage and whether it was functional at times and dysfunctional at other times, you need to process the 14 years that you spent with this woman and the life that you had planned and the loss of that relationship.
Even though there is relief in ending the relationship, with the end of that relationship comes, you know, you thought you had someone that you were going to go through life with, you thought you had someone that you could retire with, All those dreams and all those plans, they were very real to you, despite the fact that maybe they weren't achievable, but you have to mourn those, you have to process that, you have a lot of work to do before you can move forward.
Hello, am I back?
Yeah, sorry about that. Did you get the last bit?
Oh, that's okay.
I was having this real emotional moment and all of a sudden it went boop!
Yeah, I think you shorted out the server.
The power of emotion.
No, I just wanted to thank Christina.
I guess I just keep I think you've hit something here with me because it's really...
I think you hit a nerve.
Go on. I have been internalizing these external attacks and I just haven't been being good to myself and having expectations that were unrealistic And it's such a gift to suddenly see, wait a minute, that's not me!
That is such an incredible view!
I'm just having a wonderful time here!
Hey, relief is what we're all about.
Oh, man! Ha ha ha!
Pulling that crap apart is just so difficult, but boy does it feel good!
Right, right. Well, glad to be of help and certainly do, you know, therapy is a, particularly in life transitions like the end of a long relationship, big changes in careers and so on, therapy is a really great stuff to get involved in, right? Just like any time you want to get to the next level as an athlete, you go and take some coaching and that is generally a fantastic thing to do.
It's a really great investment.
You know, the time, the cost relative to what can go wrong if you don't is It's fairly negligible, so I think it's definitely worthwhile.
Well, thank you so much.
I just wanted to add something on a completely different subject.
Last night I went to a dinner for this guy, Bernard von Nothaus, who developed the Liberty Dollar.
And I printed up a bunch of FDR promo that I handed out to about the 20 people there.
And I met somebody from Arizona who was very interested in your ideas.
So hopefully he will join the club here.
So... And I'm glad that you're talking to Mr.
Badnarik. I know that that's not...
I really like the logic of you being overheard in conversation with people.
The listeners may hear the interchange and go, hey, this guy's got something on the ball.
I appreciate you for standing in there and going on with that.
Yeah, it's certainly enjoyable and we may do another one.
We're trying to rub Christina into joining us.
Well, thank you very much. And do keep us posted.
Let us know what happens with therapy.
But yeah, absolutely. To create a second half of your life, you know, that's really different from the first half is something that, I mean, I guess I did it first third, hopefully, depending on how long I live.
But making those major transitions, therapy is just a huge, huge benefit.
And it seems almost impossible to do it without something like that.
So do let us know how it goes.
And thank you so much for calling in.
Well, I thank you both for all your wonderful help, and all the other FDR people have just been wonderful.
Thank you very much. I am just Christina's meat puppet.
So, if we have time for one more question, I guess, if we have somebody with a yearning burning, speak up.
You also can mime it.
it, we can see through time.
Going once, going twice.
Question. Trembling on the- Seth, this is Zavag.
Can you hear me? Oh, hi.
How are you doing? I'm good.
How are you? Pretty good.
I was wondering, do you think these future calls are all going to revolve around psychology, or do you think they would be centered towards philosophy?
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question?
In the future. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question?
Well, most of these calls and shows are talking about personal psychology or personal issues.
Do you think any focus on in the future?
Sorry, you're cutting out a bit there.
I think you're asking, what is my prediction about what listeners are going to ask me about in the future?
Is that right? You do have direction to what the content is going to be, so I guess that's my question.
Or these call-in, it's just a free call on everybody.
Just everybody... Well, I'm sorry, just because you're cutting out, I don't say to people this is going to be a call about economics or art or philosophy or psychology.
This is a free market, right?
So the call is without agenda.
Occasionally we'll have... It's not an agenda-based show as far as that goes.
it's just, you know, what is what's on people's mind?
Right.
I just, we were having a conversation the other day, and I don't want to get into it because I don't want to know.
I'm sorry, I'm going to have to interrupt you simply because you're cutting out a lot on Skype.
I can call a telephone if you want to whisper it into the chat window.
I can call a telephone and we can talk that way, but I'm not getting enough of your words to be able to have a debate.
How about another...
No, I think you said, how about another time?
In which case, great.
I would be happy to.
Just let me know. This is, I think, if I remember you rightly, the gentleman who was talking about ways in which to oppose the growth of state power by not filling out forms, creating your own economy, and so on.
We had an interesting debate about that in the chat room, and it certainly is a topic that comes up.
I would be very happy to discuss it, but if you're not by a phone or can't I don't know if there's anything else uploading on your computer or whatever, but Skype is of course sharing your bandwidth, so unfortunately I'm just not getting enough of your words to be able to run a debate.
Right, right, yeah. Well, Skype's always having problems.
We can continue this discussion another way another time.
Thank you. Sure, no problem.
No problem. I guess we won't count that quite as a question.
And we could take another question if I have time for myself or Christina.
If you're looking for syllables or sense, you can go one or the other.
Hi. Hello.
I do have a quick one for you.
For who? For you.
Christina, I think that's for you.
Here we go. Greg, when are your questions ever quick?
Hmm? When are your questions or the answers to your questions ever quick?
Well, I'll try to make this one quick.
I'll do my best.
Um... For you, Steph, my question for you is thinking back on when you first started Free Domain and your motivations for doing that and where you were at professionally back then.
What was the transition like for you?
Because I know there was a point where you had changed jobs, you had interviewed and changed jobs, took on a much more lucrative role for your last professional role before took on a much more lucrative role for your last professional role before you decided to jump
At what point did you stop feeling the urge to keep pursuing the professional track and to dive in both feet with FDR?
What was that transition like?
I'm having trouble asking the question, I guess.
No, it's no problem. We have a fixed amount of time for me to answer, so the longer you ask, the shorter my answer is, so there's no problem.
It's just, you know, it's one or the other.
You can take your time. I'm sorry, caller Greg, now we're going to have to switch to commercial.
You too can drink your toilet water!
Sorry, go ahead. Well, I guess, yeah, I have an ulterior motive for asking.
Yes, why don't we get to the ulterior motive?
Because I didn't deal with the ulterior motive of the last guy who basically was annoyed at the psychological questions.
But let's at least deal with your nefarious motive.
Yes. Yes, I will.
And it's this.
On Friday, I had a fairly lucrative offer dropped in my lap.
And... I felt an enormous amount of desire to go for it.
But the question that came up for me was, why?
Why, if I've only taken this particular job as a stopgap measure, as a means of income while I'm busy working on the mediation thing, Why would I suddenly feel the urge to take up this offer seriously?
Right? Do you see what I'm getting at?
Because if I was really serious about the mediation thing, wouldn't my response to an offer like that be like, eh, maybe, maybe not?
Why? I'm sorry, I'm not sure why.
Well, because I... Well, in theory, I wouldn't have any interest in pursuing that career anymore, right?
In what theory? What's the basis of that theory?
Well... You know, you talk to your ecosystem, right?
And it says something like...
This is something you should do.
Or rather, like, we feel good doing this.
And I'm referring to the mediation stuff that I've recently gotten interested in.
I've meditated on it a bunch of times and every time I do, I just keep getting the feeling of go for it, go for it, go for it.
So I went for it and I'm doing it and I'm enjoying it.
I don't have a long-term plan yet, but I'm starting down that path.
Then all of a sudden, out of the blue, the place where I'm working now offers me something that is numerous levels above what I'm doing now and is going to be an enormous amount of money more than I'm making now.
My initial impulse was...
Go for that, too.
But I'm...
Oh, shit.
Hang on. Sorry.
I gotta catch the door.
Shit. I'm back.
So, anyways, why would I still feel a desire for pursuing my original career when I've...
What I've sort of worked out that I want to do something different.
I'm not sure why this is an either or thing here.
Maybe I'm just missing something?
Why is it that if you take the job with the additional pay, you can't pursue the mediation thing?
Oh, that's a good question.
Because, I mean, you basically dug a huge, a relatively large hole for yourself financially by taking over 18 months off, right?
Yes, that's true. Right, so having a little bit of scratch when you're sort of founding a new career is not a bad thing, right?
No, that's right. And let's say that at the end of this, you maybe want to work for a year or two, and then you want to set up your own mediation shop, right?
So that you can be a business owner and not have to report to people, do that individuated entrepreneurial thing that we all love so well.
Having some savings would be good for that, right?
Yeah, actually, that's quite true.
That's quite true. Always trust them ecosystem, man.
If some part of you is lunging at an opportunity, then ask why, and don't assume that it's either or, right?
Well, I guess I got a little, not frightened, but concerned by that impulse because I was afraid that maybe...
Oh, like maybe it meant that you weren't that interested in the mediation thing because you could be bought out by, you know, a six-pack and a stripper gram?
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah.
Yeah, but that's a conclusion, right?
I mean, you've just got to ask yourself, right?
Because it's a form of self-attack, is to say, oh my god, well if I'm interested in this, that means I don't want to do the mediation and I've been lying to myself or my ecosystem.
But that's just coming to a conclusion, right?
The relentless curiosity is to say, well that's interesting, I wasn't expecting that, I wonder where that's coming from.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I was afraid that maybe I was just being self-manipulative or something like that.
But yeah, I guess I'm just going to have to ask myself.
Yeah, I mean, there could be very good reasons for taking on a job with higher pay.
I mean, there could be very good reasons for doing that that are not at all in conflict with your earlier goal.
Right. Well, one thing that it's going to One thing that that's going to cost me though is time outside of work, right?
Because I'm not going to be as free as I would be if I just stuck with the low responsibility job, right?
Where you can punch in and punch out and forget about it, right?
Ah, there you go. You're jumping to conclusions again, right?
Because you're saying, I won't be as free if I take the job with more money, right?
Oh, interesting. But how do you know that, right?
With more money comes freedom, right?
Comes some kinds of choices.
Comes additional opportunities for entrepreneurship.
Maybe you'll learn in this new job the kind of skills that you need to be an entrepreneur in the mediation world because you'll have more responsibility.
Maybe you'll learn how to handle a budget, how to handle employees, how to do strategic planning.
All of these things could be a fantastic education for you as an entrepreneur.
So, again, you don't know, right?
That's what you have to ask, right?
Right. Right. No, that's right.
That's true. That's true.
And it doesn't necessarily mean...
Interestedness doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not interested in the entrepreneurial venture.
Well, yeah. I mean, the wonderful ambivalent complexity of the MECO system is it's almost impossible to find an either-or situation, right?
That's a good point. That should have been a red flag for me.
As soon as it's like, well, if it's this, it can't be that, then it's not a valid thing, right?
Right. Unless you're actually in a plane that's going down and you're deciding whether to jump, right?
I mean, but, you know, in these kinds of situations, it's just like, well, that's interesting.
I wasn't expecting that.
Okay, I guess we're going in this direction.
And, I mean, just from my own experience, I mean, just a minor correction, it wasn't a massively more lucrative job.
I went from about 135 to 160, so it wasn't...
A huge increase in that last job.
And of course, I mean, I would much rather have gone straight to free domain, but, you know, at that time I was making about eight bucks a month, so that might have been a tad premature.
But once I discovered how much had fallen down behind the sofa a little later on, it became that much more...
view that job the last job that i had professionally i did not view that job as an either or like oh my god if i do this i have to close down the fdr server right and i have to never do a podcast it's like hey another commute right so i can still continue to podcast i can still continue to do fdr and build it now
i thought i would be at that job for 18 to 24 months before and i viewed that as saving up money to to fund fdr but unfortunately of course you fabulous listeners stepped up and gave me the cash to to do it full-time and so then it became a possibility and then i stayed on for another couple of months
As a contractor, which gave me a good chunk of change to the startup costs and all that kind of stuff to found FDR. So I didn't view that job as, oh my god, if I do this, I can't do that, but as a way of enabling me to do FDR. I just came across...
It just came along sooner than I expected because the donations increased.
And I didn't like the job.
So those sort of two things combined.
And, of course, Christina. I mean, the most fundamental thing was that Christina stepped up and said, I really can't stand the spectacle of you in a fetal position crying every day before you go to work.
So in order to not face that spectacle, here's some money.
Now stop licking my legs, you lap dog.
You know, it was something like that.
But that's really how it came down.
So you didn't see staying in the working world as a compromise of that end goal then?
Quite the contrary.
I would have viewed quitting to do FDR as an unacceptable compromise at that time.
Really? Oh, no question.
It would have been an absolutely unacceptable compromise at that time.
It would have been very bad, right?
Because I would have had to really push for donations.
I would have had to spend all the money.
Like, I had to spend money to get FDR started, right?
I mean, crank up advertising and do lots of other things that were pretty expensive.
I had to buy hardware.
I had to buy a new computer.
I had to buy microphones.
I had to buy video cameras.
I mean, there was a lot of stuff.
I had to buy lots of software to do video processing and so on.
So there was a lot of stuff that I had to do to get FDR started.
I would have been far too stressed out and anxious to be an effective entrepreneur if I had gone from that pretty significant career income down to what was coming in through FDR donations at the time.
I mean, it would have been negative.
I mean, I think that FDR would not have worked out at that point because I would have just been too stressed.
I would have had to push too hard for donations.
It would have been less pleasant for people, I think.
Whereas once I felt that I had a more stable base, I could go forward in a more positive way.
So, no, I viewed taking on that job and building up...
The bank account for FDR to launch the ship towards the ocean, not a puddle.
That's sort of what you want to do.
So I felt it was a positive thing to do that, not a compromise.
Right. Okay, well, that makes sense.
And yeah, seeing it as an either-or should have been a real indicator to me, because that's something that I have a habit of doing, but...
And the implication of that, of course, is that there's a part of you that's out to get you, right?
Like, the moment that you say that, right, then you're saying, like, oh my god, the ecosystem's steering me wrong on the mediation, and I'm actually just in it for the money.
Like, it throws the whole thing into question, right?
Right, right. And, of course, the ecosystem is not at all out to get me.
It's... No, it's trying to help you.
It's trying to say, look, we should definitely look at how money can build us a much greater freedom, right?
Right. And give us the kind of business experience we need to be successful and to be our own boss that much quicker.
Yeah, and it's interesting because this particular job would involve a lot of client contact, so that would definitely come in handy.
Right. Now, I myself would not put strippergram in the same career category.
That's why I used the words earlier.
Now, certainly you will get a lot of client contact out of there.
Just remember, tool belt on the left and panther on the right.
That's really part of it.
And wait till you hear the number three before you jump out of the cake, right?
That's right. Absolutely.
Got it. Okay.
Thanks. You're absolutely welcome.
And I guess that's it, unless anybody else had a last yearning burning before we sign off.
Going once, going none.
Well, thank you everybody so much for dropping by.
It was a great show. And thank you to our callers for some excellent questions, JC in particular, for his great work.
And hopefully the book is out this coming week.
I think that you'll find it quite enjoyable.
It is my first audio book with sound effects.
So I hope that you will enjoy that.
And if we could congregate the ladies to talk about when we can next do the Female Plenary Council call-in show, I think that would be excellent.
Gives me a nice Sunday off.
So we will talk about that.
Maybe we can get one in before the baby comes.
Yeah, because afterwards Christina may be accidentally breastfeeding a microphone while I speak into a baby.
So that might be confusing for everyone involved, including the baby.
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