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Oct. 4, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
41:44
1166 ODing on Invisibility - A Listener Convo
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Please enjoy the music while your party is reached.
Hello?
Oh, hi, it's Steph.
Yeah.
Hey. Okay, so just don't forget, no names, and this doesn't necessarily have to be a podcast, so don't worry about it.
Just don't use any names, just in case.
It's certainly up to you at the end, but just wanted to mention that up front.
Alright, so I'm obviously very sorry to hear about your brother.
Can we call him Bob?
Yeah. Okay.
So he and some friends at school took some combination of cough syrup and other stuff and he ended up, he passed out.
What happened? He was throwing up, and so the vice principal came down and took him up to the nurse's office.
And the nurse, you know, she didn't know what to do.
He was out of it.
He wasn't responding to what people were saying.
It was obvious he had taken something from what my mom said when she showed up.
She said, get an ambulance here now.
And he just...
He went into cardiac arrest.
It was right there. And the nurse didn't even acknowledge it.
She said, you know, he's fine.
He still has color and stuff.
And that whole thing was a mess.
And then they finally got him to the hospital, got him breathing, pumped out his stomach and all that.
And then I found out about it after that, after all that.
And... It's such a long...
But that's how it happened.
That's just the start of it.
Okay. Now, I mean, to me, the medical details aren't too relevant.
I was really struck by what you said, that he's the happiest kid you know.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I've always described him like that to people that ask, just to anybody, you know?
I've always been very close with my brother.
And he really has been one of the constantly happy people I've ever known.
Right. And I'm going to be totally annoying here and just ask you to try on the possibility that that's not true.
It's so hard for me to see that because he's so young.
He's only 15.
I mean, I don't see any kind of major issue in his life that would cause that.
Right, and I'm not trying to put forward a self-fulfilling prophecy, but if he's unhappy and everyone thinks he's happy, this is exactly what he would do.
Right? If he's forced to put on a happy face, or forced to be positive when he's really very depressed, then his depression will come out in self-destructive behavior, right?
But that's where I disagree.
I don't think it was... I don't think it was self-destructive just because of the way I know him.
It was just...
I mean, I already said this to you.
It was like a typical teenage thing where you think you're invincible.
You don't really think about the consequences.
It's cool. Your friends bring it out.
I could see him being very susceptible to that.
Okay, that's fine.
That's a theory, right?
So you say that it's typical teenage behavior?
Uh... I mean, it's not like every teenager is like that, but it is a pretty common thing, especially around where I am.
Okay, so how many teenagers have gone into cardiac arrest as a result of mixing dangerous drugs that you know of?
Three. Okay, out of how many teenagers do you know in school or whatever?
Out of all the kids that go to the school?
Yeah, you say three that you know of.
How many kids go to the school? Like 2,500.
Right. So, typical is probably not the right word to use, right?
Well, I mean, I went to that school and I know the drug use that goes on.
See, I don't know if he knew there was a painkiller in it.
I mean, obviously the cough syrup mixture didn't help, but they're saying that he probably wouldn't have known that there was another drug in there.
And he thought he was just taking a little thing of cough syrup or whatever to make him...
I don't know what he was thinking.
Wait, to make him what? Sorry, sorry to interrupt.
Hello? To make him what?
You stopped there. And I think that's important.
Just to... I don't know.
Get that high feeling.
I don't know. No, but you said he was...
Sorry to be annoying again.
You said he was the happiest person you know.
Yeah.
So why would he need a high?
I guess I'm just going to go back to my experimental...
No, if you're happy, you don't experiment with highs, right?
Because he's not a dumb kid, right?
He knows that there are risks to self-medication, right?
Oh, yeah. And as you say, there have been other kids who have had their hearts stopped by just this kind of activity, right?
Well, he was the first one.
Sorry, this just happened yesterday, didn't it?
Yes. So, let's have two others.
Oh, sorry, it's the three his friends, right?
Yeah, all three of them.
Oh, so this is the only three people that you know of who've had their hearts stopped by this kind of drug use?
Yeah. Okay.
But he knows that it's dangerous to take drugs, right?
I'm not saying he knows it's going to stop his heart, but he knows it's dangerous, right?
I don't think he's ever thought about it too hard.
You don't think he's thought about it too hard?
No, I really don't think he's giving it that much thought.
No, I understand. Look, I understand that.
I'm not saying he's a pharmacologist.
I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but I don't want to be on the phone all day.
For your sake, not mine, because you've got family issues to deal with.
But if somebody were to ask him, can it be bad for you to take these kinds of drugs without a doctor's recommendation, what would he say?
I'm sorry, what was that question?
If you were to ask him, Before, yesterday.
Can it be dangerous to take drugs without a doctor's advice?
He would probably say, yeah, it might be dangerous.
Okay. Now, can he say, if you're not getting the drugs from a doctor or a pharmacy, do you always know what's in them?
He would definitely say no to that.
Okay. So there's a risk involved, right?
He would know that, right? And the risk can be bad health effects, right?
Including being dead, right?
Yeah. So why would a happy person, who's already, as you say, the happiest person you know, take that risk?
Because he's already happy.
He doesn't need a high, right?
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out, and that's why I was talking about it.
I have no idea.
Okay, well, the kind of life that he has, you said, your parents control his friends, where he goes to school, I assume, his activities.
I was saying that that's what I think it's going to turn into.
Like, it's just going to make things worse.
Okay, so you think that now his parents are going to control him?
But before they weren't controlling him?
No, my parents think that it's the solution to bring in control.
Okay, and so how did they discipline him when he was young?
He basically got his way all the time.
He was one of those very persistent people.
So they didn't discipline him, is that right?
Well, I mean, they tried, but he's very persistent.
If he wanted something, he would usually get it.
And how would he get it?
You say persistent, but in what way?
Like begging and just trying to make trades with him.
Like, I'll do this if you just give me that kind of thing.
That's how he's always been.
So is it right to say that he was not disciplined?
No. I don't think he was.
Okay. And your parents are religious, is that right?
Mm-hmm. And did they send him to church, Sunday school, that kind of stuff?
Yeah, we've been going to church our whole lives.
Okay. And what is his perspective on religion and God and so on?
He views it as being pretty absurd and is always making jokes about it whenever we go.
He really doesn't believe in it at all from what I can tell.
Then why does he go?
Because we're forced to.
No, you said that he gets whatever he wants, right?
Well, I mean, there are certain things that my parents won't allow.
And skipping out on church on a constant basis is one of them.
Well, but how do they enforce that?
If they don't discipline...
I'm just trying to figure out what the family dynamic is.
So how do they enforce it if he gets whatever he wants?
If they want him to go to church and he doesn't believe, how do they make him go to church?
They threaten to take away his dirt bike, which is usually the standard discipline for anything.
That's not it, though. So they just threatened to take away his dirt bike?
Yeah. And that's enough for him to go, right?
Oh, yeah. Okay.
And do your parents raise their voices with him, or has he seen that a lot?
My mom sometimes raises her voice, but he's never taken that seriously.
He mocks her and stuff.
My dad, I've hardly ever heard him yell.
Why does your brother mock your mother?
Like, what does he say?
What does he do? I can't think of a specific example.
She'll tell him to stop doing something and he'll just do it more because he doesn't care.
Or... She'll say something, tell him to do something, and he'll just repeat it back to her in a sarcastic tone.
Stuff like that. It's always been there.
So is it fair to say that he does not respect your mother?
No, I don't think he does. You don't think he does?
I think you know. I mean, you would, right?
Well, I know he doesn't, yeah.
And what does he not respect about your mother?
He just thinks that...
He, quite frankly, just thinks she's dumb, from what I can tell.
Well, but that doesn't mean a lack of, sorry, that doesn't mean a lack of respect, right?
I mean, because if someone's dumb, that's just...
He doesn't feel like he has to listen to her because he thinks he's smarter than her.
Sure, but being, like, if I know that someone is dumb, that doesn't mean that I don't respect them, right?
It just means that they're not as intelligent, and you can actually be kind to people like that, right?
Yeah. So it must be something else.
She exercises power over him, or tries to, and he feels that he is the smarter one in the exchange, and that, I guess, brings out the mocking.
Well, but if somebody tries to exercise power over you and they fail, then you don't end up mocking them, right?
Like, I mean, if a kid comes up and ineffectively punches me in the knee, I don't get mad, right?
No. So it's not that she tries to exercise power.
I mean, that wouldn't make him sarcastic, right?
I don't know.
I mean, is it not possible that he could just do it just because?
Well, no, no. We always have some reason for doing something, right?
I mean, we don't just act randomly.
Okay, no, this is tough, so I appreciate your patience.
Does he respect your father?
He respects my dad a lot more, yes.
Well, does he respect your dad for choosing your mom as a life partner?
We really haven't talked about that too much, but if he doesn't respect my mom and respects my dad, then that would seem to be a pretty logical decision.
Conclusion. Okay.
Does your dad...
When your brother is disrespectful towards your mother, what does your dad do?
He gets upset and tells him not to do that.
And so he normally doesn't do it when my dad is around.
It's usually when he's at work or whatever.
So in that instance, he's not respecting your father, right?
Because if your father doesn't want him to do it...
And he does it anyway. He's not respecting your father's wishes, right?
Yeah, exactly.
So I guess he's just sort of going along with the power when it's there.
Yeah, that's not respect, right?
Respect is when you internalize someone's wishes, right?
Now, would you say that your brother is above average intelligence, average or below average?
I'd say average.
All right. And his hobbies, as you say, dirt biking, rap music, friends, what else?
He says he likes parties, like large groups of people and socializing.
I mean, he's just a typical 15-year-old life, I guess, just a hobby, friends and school.
And do you know if he drinks?
I know he has drank before.
And what does that mean? Well, I don't know if he planned on to do it anymore or not, but I know he has done it in the past.
Well, done it meaning what? I mean, like at parties to the point of being drunk or a glass of wine or what are we talking?
He's talked about being drunk and having fun being drunk and stuff to me a few times and I really don't feel comfortable talking about it.
So I just tell him that I don't think it's a good idea or whatever and I give reasons and stuff and he just doesn't really seem to listen.
Okay, and do you know if he is sexually active?
I don't think he is.
Okay. I have no idea.
So we have a kid who doesn't believe in God but is forced to go to church, who doesn't respect his mother, doesn't seem to respect his father, mocks his mother, right?
Obviously holds her kind of in contempt, right?
So tell me where this happiness is coming from that you perceive.
Because that doesn't sound like a very fun environment to me, right?
I mean, he's usually cheerful.
I guess that's what I meant.
Like, he's not a drag to be around, you know?
He's not, like, visibly depressed or anything.
Right. But if you feel that he's happy...
Sorry, go ahead.
He always has conversation and just, you know, just that type of person.
But where is the source of his happiness, right?
I mean, just to say, the source of my happiness is, you know, my relationship with my wife, the work that I do in philosophy, the exercise that I take, you know, that kind of stuff, music, I mean, that all gives me joy.
Where is the source of his happiness coming from?
I just always attributed it to his personality.
He was just a naturally just cheerful person, I guess.
I never really... Thought about it too much until, you know, yesterday.
Sure. Well, now that you have had a chance to think about it, where do you think the happiness is coming?
Because it seems like there's a lot that would make him unhappy, right?
Parents he doesn't respect, a religion he doesn't respect that he's forced to participate in.
It doesn't sound like there's a lot to make him very happy, if that makes sense?
Well, I mean, he doesn't go to, like, you know, we go to church once a week, so it's not like In our lives all the time.
It's just that one time a week.
And he's usually hanging out with his friends and stuff, and I don't know what he's doing with his friends.
So... You know, he's not just like sitting at home all the time and moping around or anything.
Well, sure, I understand that.
I mean, I really do.
I'm not trying to... I'm not saying that you're lying when you perceive him as happy, right?
But I'm telling you, happy people don't risk drugs.
They don't. They just don't.
It doesn't happen. It's like saying, if you're happily married to someone, you're going to divorce them, right?
I mean, that doesn't make any sense, right?
I mean, if you're happy, you don't need the boost.
I'm sorry, go ahead. Well, my main question was going to be is, you know, how would I go about this in the future?
Because my parents are going to just take over...
Control of his life. I can already tell, like, already.
You know, they're gonna tell him where he's gonna go to school and what friends he can have.
They're gonna screen his friends and constantly monitoring him, making him go to church.
And, you know, my family was forcing him when he was strapped down or whatever.
He couldn't even talk. Asking him if he had accepted Jesus and stuff.
Oh my gosh. He just said yes.
It was terrible to watch.
Oh, that's just awful.
I mean, that's just awful.
And this is going to make him very...
I mean, the reason that this is so important is that he might die next time, right?
Oh, yeah. I mean, he could have died this time.
Right, right, yeah.
And if his unhappiness is...
Wallpapered over and everyone's like, oh, he's the happy kid who did a mysterious or accidental thing.
He'll do it again. Probably.
That's what I'm afraid of.
Definitely. In one form or another, right?
Because if our feelings aren't acknowledged, we simply keep escalating the behavior until somebody says there's something wrong, right?
Yeah. We continue to act out until people recognize that something's wrong, right?
Now, your parents aren't going to do it.
No. So it's up to you.
I'm not the most forceful person in the world.
You don't have to be forceful.
Okay, maybe you have to be a little forceful.
But this is for your brother's life, right?
So, it's okay to be uncomfortable, right?
Yeah. I mean, I'm uncomfortable.
I don't normally do this kind of stuff, but I did it anyways because I wanted to talk through it with someone.
Because the whole scene at the hospital was just all those people there starting prayer groups and talking about Jesus and stuff.
Just, I left... And said, I'll come back when there's an update because I'm just a few minutes away from the hospital.
Right. No, look, I mean, I hugely appreciate what you're doing.
He's very lucky to have a brother like you, in my opinion.
I mean, I think that he's very lucky.
But I think that if you want some suggestions, is there more that you wanted to talk about with regards to your brother?
Would it be helpful to get a few suggestions?
Suggestions about what to do in the future?
Yeah. Yeah, that would be very helpful.
Well, first of all, I think that you need to work on your parents to get them to send them to a counselor.
I don't think that would be hard to do.
Yeah, but not a creepy Christian counselor.
Not a priest. Not a Christian youth group.
We've been to a Christian counselor once before and didn't.
Didn't really like the advice for other things.
So I don't think to get a normal counselor would be that hard.
It's the schooling and the friends in the church that I'm worried about.
Well, I mean, you have to try as best you can.
If your parents clamp down on him, they'll make it worse.
Oh yeah, that's what I'm worried about the most at this point.
So, I mean, you're going to have to throw yourself in there, right?
And just say, look, I know that your response here is going to be to clamp down on the kid, but that's not going to work.
Whatever mistakes your parents have made, by the time he's 15, there's nothing they can do.
They can't undo what they've done.
And clamping down even further is just continuing to make the same mistakes, right?
And making them worse.
Yeah, yeah, making them worse, absolutely.
So they're going to have, and I sympathize to some degree, but they're going to have this temptation to clamp down, and you're going to have to try and stop them from doing that.
I don't know how...
All you can do is try.
How I would do that. Yeah, all you can do is try, right?
Yeah, I mean, you can't control it, right?
Now, at the same time, I think that you need to sit down with your brother And ask him how he feels about your mom, how he feels about your dad, how he feels about your community, how he feels about this crazy-ass religious culty shit, right?
You know, how does he experience the world that he's in?
How does he feel...
Sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say that was gonna be my approach.
The religion thing especially, because that was very disturbing to watch.
Oh, it's horrible, isn't it?
Yes. The idea that some undead Jewish zombie ghost from 2,000 years ago can fix this fucking mess is ridiculous.
Yeah. I mean, it was making me angry.
Yeah. And I'll be happy, I mean, if there's anything I can do, let me know, right?
Because, I mean, we've all been that 15-year-old kid who needs some rational validation, but, you know, if you can get him to, and I think you need to, I mean, for a young man to feel contempt for his parents is a terrible thing.
It's a terrible, terrible thing.
And I don't think it's just your parents.
I mean, does he speak about any of his teachers with admiration and respect?
Towards anybody or my parents?
No, towards his teachers at school, say.
The teachers he likes are the easy ones.
That's about it. Right, but he doesn't speak like, I look forward to this class because this guy really has some great stuff to say.
Oh, no. I wish he said stuff like that.
I try to get him to. Why do you try to get him to?
Well, I just enjoy seeing people excited about learning and stuff.
But do you see the mistake that you're making here?
I'm just trying to convince him.
I'm not forcing him. No, I know that.
And again, I say mistake.
You have good intentions, and I respect what you're doing.
But do you see the mistake of saying to him, it would be better if you felt this rather than what you feel?
Well, that's not how I put it.
I know, but that's what he's going to get, right?
Yeah, that probably is what he is getting.
I mean, it doesn't sound to me, and look, again, this is with all due sensitivity to the work that you want to put in, which I hugely respect, but it doesn't sound like his feelings get a lot of respect in the family.
That just sounds so weird to say, because he's always the one talking over everybody.
But yeah, it does make sense.
Tell me, and again, I don't want to send you down a path if it doesn't make sense, so just let me know what does make sense about that.
Well, to be perfectly honest, the idea that he was trying to hurt himself or something still doesn't make sense to me.
I didn't say that he was trying to hurt himself.
What I meant was that he was careless about his safety, to say the least, right?
I don't think that he said, I really want to have a heart attack, so I'm going to drink this stuff, right?
We don't know, right? We don't know because it's going to take a while to get the truth out of him if you're patient and curious and don't impose your own agenda, right?
But he was careless with his safety, at the very least, right?
Oh, yeah, definitely. That's all that I meant.
I didn't mean to say that he was trying to kill himself or anything.
Oh, no, I didn't say that.
I wasn't trying to say that you were, but I just kind of was trying to clear that up.
I mean, it's like when you roll the dice, right?
When you roll the dice enough times, eventually you're going to get snake eyes, right?
Yeah, he should have thought about that.
Well, and we don't know that he didn't, right?
Yeah. Because it's going to take a while to get this sorted out, right?
Yeah, and I really do think it would take a counselor to really figure that stuff out at this point.
Well, I think that's true, but I also think that there's a lot that you can do by doing nothing, so to speak, by asking him questions, you know, tell me how you really feel about mom, and just listening.
Not telling him he's right or he's wrong, but just absorb his thoughts and his feelings, his experience of the world that you live in, the school, the family, the church, the society, everything, right?
If you ask him how he's doing, how he feels, what he thinks, without, you know, that's right or that's good or that's bad or that's wrong, it will ease the tension, if that makes sense, within him.
Because people often take drugs, oh sorry, people sometimes take drugs not because they're unhappy, But because they're not visible to themselves.
They don't feel like they exist.
So they need some stimulation.
You know, like the way people will cut themselves.
They need some stimulation to feel that they exist.
And that you...
Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry?
It sounds spot on. Go on.
I think that's a perfect description.
Go on. Of what might be happening.
Right, and I'll tell you how that comes about if you feel that would be helpful to you.
It comes about when a child is not mirrored.
In other words, when a child feels something, in order to process his own feelings, he needs his parents To listen to what he feels and to reflect it back to him, right?
So if a kid says, I'm sad, he needs his parents to recognize that he is sad and to act in a kind of appropriate manner, if that makes any sense.
Do you mean to just say that they understand or to go about some kind of action?
Well, if my kid comes to me and says, I saw a dead squirrel by the side of the road, right?
Then I'll say, oh, that must have been quite a shock.
Tell me how you feel. Tell me what you think and so on, right?
And just sit there and listen, right?
And if the kid says, oh, it's really sad.
He's just lying there by the side of the road and blah, blah, blah.
I'll ask him and we'll talk more about it.
Maybe we'll go and bury the squirrel, right?
Or whatever will make him feel a little better.
But the action was put forth by the kid in the situation, right?
Thank you.
Yeah, the kid experiences the world and has feelings.
But in your family, it sounds a little bit, or in fact quite a lot, that his feelings are just kind of ignored or rejected, right?
Like, instead of somebody saying, like, your dad should sit down and say, you know, you seem to, I seem to get the feeling that you don't have a lot of respect for your mom.
Tell me about that.
When do you think that first happened?
What do you think is going on?
You know, that kind of stuff, right?
But your dad just kind of says, don't do that, right?
It just shuts him down, right?
And I'm betting that that, so his mother doesn't ever say, your mom doesn't sit him down and say, tell me what's going on with your feelings about religion.
You know, I'm curious, I want to know, when did you first start to have these doubts?
Tell me what you think about when you think about church and what is your experience?
Like all that stuff, right? Where his emotions actually mean something.
They have a point because people actually listen to them and it affects people's choices, behavior.
They have a point, right?
And it doesn't sound like your parents have done much to absorb his feelings, ask him questions about them, so his feelings are kind of meaningless.
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
They're meaningless and they're pointless.
Like, it doesn't change anything, right?
Like, it's like if you stand at the front of a boat or a ship and you can't yell, go left, go right, and it never goes left or right, eventually you just stop doing it, right?
Because it's like, well, this doesn't change anything, right?
And my concern, of course, is...
Sorry, so he's not happy because he feels very distant from himself, because his feelings are pointless, and after a while then you stop even feeling them, right?
I don't know if you stop feeling, but it just doesn't become as important.
Well, he must be feeling pretty distant from himself to do what he did, right?
Or like he doesn't care much about himself.
Yeah. I would agree with that.
Right. So, I think to...
And it's going to be hard work, right?
Because he's going to be very cynical and skeptical about it, right?
He's got a lot of defenses about this stuff, right?
Yeah. He's going to have all the smart-ass cynicism of a 15-year-old, right?
And we've all been there, right? Like, oh, big bro, what you trying to psychobabble me now?
Do you want me to turn on Oprah for you?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'd be hearing.
Exactly, and the patience that you're going to need to have is considerable, but, I mean, obviously you care about him, and he's very lucky to have someone in his life who does to this degree.
Well, I think with the seriousness of this situation, he'll be more open to, you know, trying to make sure this doesn't happen again.
I think he'll understand that much.
We certainly hope so, right?
There's no guarantee as yet.
And of course, what do I know? I'm just going up in Canada, right?
But the best chance that you have is to validate what he feels, right?
I mean, obviously, you're not so big on the religion.
So it's just a matter of calm conversations, right?
In a, you know, go for a walk in the woods, you know, go someplace where there's not cell phones and TVs and distractions and so on, right?
And just sit there, watch the sun go down and murmur about the world and your experience, right?
And, well, do your parents know that you are an atheist?
Yes.
No. And why not?
Because, like, it's not just our immediate family that's pretty close and whatever and has the hierarchy, but it's the whole extended family and they're all the same way.
So it would be a nightmare for me, especially since I'm living at home right now and going to college.
Right, okay. But does your brother know that you're an atheist?
Uh, yeah. Yeah, he does.
You sounded a little doubtful.
Well, I told him I was an agnostic.
And why did you hold it off, the truth from him?
It just seems so weird to me to release that kind of information in my family.
Oh, you feel that he may not, so he may blurt it out?
Yeah, by accident or something.
I don't think he would purposely get me in trouble.
Well, or in a moment of anger, right?
I mean, 15-year-olds don't have the longest time horizons, right?
Yeah. That was part of it, too.
Right. And then you'd have to explain that away, right?
Mm-hmm. Which would be very difficult.
Right. Right.
Right. How much longer did you have to go in college?
I just started, so...
Right, so quite a waste.
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's up to you, of course, right?
I mean, and I can't, no one but you can judge this, of course, but, you know, if you were honest about your feelings, it would help him be more honest about his.
Because you could lead by example, right?
It sounds to me like he's also pretty hungry for a hero.
Yeah.
Well, I can think of one example of where I know that's happened.
Yeah.
What do you mean? It was when he was younger, he came up to the teacher crying in class, like this was elementary school, and started saying that he was never going to be as good as me.
And that kind of freaked me out.
Uh-huh. Go on. That was all the story I heard.
So that's it. Well, did you ask him what he meant by that?
Did I ask about it later?
Yeah, like, did you ask him what did he mean by that?
I don't know. I was...
I didn't know what to...
I didn't even know what to ask or do about that.
I just pretended like it didn't happen.
Right. And do you see what I mean when he's...
That was a long time ago. I mean...
I was young, too.
I didn't exactly know what to think.
Oh, yeah, look, I'm not...
Obviously, I'm not blaming you, right?
You're both trying to survive in this crazy environment.
But I'm just trying to give you some clues as to how he ended up feeling that his feelings didn't matter.
Would you say? Yeah, I'm certainly not trying to criticize.
I'm just trying to give you some tips on how your brother ended up feeling, likely, that his feelings don't matter, right?
Yeah, and you've definitely given me a lot of good ideas to start working on.
And you can ask him, right, and say, I really remember this thing, and I wish I'd asked you about it at the time, but of course your parents are very much like, if we don't like it, it doesn't exist, right?
Yeah, it just disappears.
Yeah, it just goes down the memory hole, right?
And so you can say, I remember you saying this when you were a kid.
I'd like to ask you what you meant by that now.
And I'm sorry I'm asking so late, but I really do want to know.
Yeah, there's just so much stuff we're going to have to go through now.
Right. But that is what is going to bring him back to life to himself.
that someone cares, is willing to share, and wants to know what he really thinks and feels.
Yeah.
I mean, like I said, you've definitely given me a lot of good things to start working on that I just, I don't know, wouldn't have thought about in this frantic moment.
Oh yeah, listen, I mean, my heart totally goes out to you.
I mean, it is an unbearably difficult situation.
I'm so sorry that it has come to this.
But it could be the thing that heals your family, right?
At least between you and your brother, right?
It could be the whole immediate family if things go really well from here.
I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
I mean, if they're telling him, has you accepted Jesus when he's in a hospital gurney, I wouldn't hold out for that.
But you can control your relationship with him to some degree.
Yeah. Okay, and again, I know you've got a hugely busy day with your family, and I don't want to take too much of your time.
Has this been useful or helpful in terms of ways to think about the issues?
Definitely. Okay, good.
I will send you a link to this recording.
I think it would be useful for others to hear, but, you know, the important thing is you can have a listener and let me know what you think.
Okay, I'm pretty sure I'm going to allow it, so...
Okay, but I'll send it to you anyway, just to double-check, right?
I always want to make sure that people have a chance to think about it, but I certainly do appreciate your honesty and your openness.
Your brother is very, very lucky, and I hugely admire what you're doing.
Thank you. All right, man.
Keep me posted, eh?
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