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Sept. 22, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:06:18
1155 Hit Men and Victims - Convo
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Time Text
Alright. So, what can I do for you?
Well, first I'm just going to say that I'm feeling a little bit of anxiety talking to a group, but I think it's a sign of how I used to always hide things.
Over the weekend, I went camping with my father, and we go hunting and stuff like that.
And I had a talk with him where I don't know, I guess I was trying to break him down because I had a similar talk with my mom to try and figure out why she was who she was.
And I had a talk with my father to try and figure out why he was who he was.
And I figured out that his father went to the war and had to work real hard and had a real hard life.
And I think something convinced him that Work was more important than love.
And that mimicked onto my father and my mother.
And they would always fight.
And my mother's father was an alcoholic and her mother was really sentimental and would always give in to the father.
And that mimicked onto my mother.
But my mother was not quite like that.
But they always fight.
And we always get in the middle.
I thought I was productive that weekend, but then I came home and today, which was more important than the weekend, I had to talk to my sister and I told her about how I was productive with the weekend because I think I figured out why my father was who he was.
She got really angry because What he had done to her.
And basically when I was really young, and I would do something wrong.
I have two sisters and then me.
So three children.
And whenever I would do something wrong, or my sister would do something wrong, she would get the punishment.
And always get a...
She'd get hit and stuff like that.
And that would be by your father?
Yes. And my other sister, like she would, some things she would say would be like, Daddy, I want to go, like, because he would go biking, road biking, my sister, when we were like, Five or eight years old, or I'm not sure, would ask to go biking and he'd be like, I'm sorry, I have more important things to do.
We should be working because of how his father raised him.
Basically what I think this mimics onto me is because I've been trying to solve their problems, and I think I've been Reducing myself a lot because he used to spoil me.
Right. And, uh...
Yeah. And I've always...
I don't know what else to say, but...
I don't know, I guess, uh...
Because they had it unfair or something as a child.
I think I've been, uh...
Trying to make up for that for them or something.
You mean you're solving your parents' problems?
Yeah. And that's what your sister got mad about, that you were trying to solve your parents' problems?
Is that right? Yeah.
And why did she find that objectionable?
Um, I guess because...
Well, upstairs she was saying that it was his choice to choose to be who he was.
And the person should always, from their parents, take an image which they can improve on.
So, like, instead of being a product of their parents...
And both my parents were a product of their parents, which is pretty bad...
So she said that he could have not been abusive.
He could have done stuff with us and stuff like that.
Or treated us all equal and stuff like that.
And was it surprising to you that your sister had this perspective?
Well, a little bit.
Because I kind of forgot why everybody was fighting.
And I wanted to figure out why, because whenever I talk to everybody, they just get angry, and anger on the defensive voice, to me, seemed like something, like somebody was unsure about why they were.
But it also could be, I guess, frustration because something, but...
Sorry, frustration on the part of your siblings?
Yeah, frustrated because...
Like, I didn't know what happened or something.
Yeah. Because you didn't know what happened in terms of their abuse?
Yeah. And was it that you didn't know, or was there something else?
Might have been something else.
I guess, I'm not sure if it was something because she was so abused and I had it easy.
But then she told me that she wasn't angry at me, she was angry at him.
Well sure. I've always been nice to her, and I've always tried to help her.
Pardon? Go on, sorry.
She's been through a few relationships.
She never had any love, or father love.
And she says she doesn't need it, or she didn't need a father figure, but I said everybody needs a father figure.
And she missed that, and she had been through quite a few relationships trying to get that.
Yeah. I don't know.
I guess it's a sign of how damaged she is.
And does she perceive your...
I don't want to put words in her mouth, but does she perceive your conversations with your father as ways of excusing his behavior?
I think so. I think, well, he used to say to my mom and to us that she was brainwashing us.
And she did say that this time.
Your sister was brainwashing?
Yeah. Okay.
Like, she was brainwashing now?
She's brainwashing now about the past, is that right?
Yeah, because, I don't know, if she was, yeah, I'd agree with her.
Sorry, I'm just finding a little...
Agree with who? Agree with your dad that she is brainwashing others?
No, I'm agreeing with you that my sister is brainwashing me now.
She is brainwashing you now, so your father is correct that your sister is brainwashing you now?
No, he wasn't correct.
I'm not sure. Okay, so you don't believe that she is brainwashing you?
Oh, no, no, I don't believe she's brainwashing me.
Okay, great. But your father's perspective is that...
No, you're doing great.
But your father's perspective is that she is brainwashing you.
Well, that was when we were young.
So a long time ago, he believed that my mother was brainwashing us.
Oh, sorry, your mother. I thought it was your sister.
Okay, so it's your mother was brainwashing you.
Oh, yeah. Is that right?
Yeah. Okay. And how was your mother brainwashing you?
I've tried to figure out what this could be, but I think it might have been her sentimentalism and how she put a lot of emotion into her words, and like I talked to you before, and how she was sentimental, and if you didn't bend to that.
But I don't think she was like that as we were a child.
But, yeah.
But, I don't know.
I think I'm not sure if he was just trying to be manipulative, because he always seemed to get what he liked, so if he didn't, I guess he would freak out.
Right, okay.
And what is it that you would like me to help you with today?
I don't know.
I think I was thinking about helping me with my – or at least – Crack what might have been holding me back because I've tried to, like I used to do a lot of stuff, like before I told you how I did, I'm not sure, I don't think I did, parkour, I have done tumbling, mountain biking, and I almost became a comedian,
but whenever I started to get really into it, I just stopped, and I constantly reduced myself.
To, uh, like, simple means, like, I live, right now, I live, uh, like, I'm gonna, I'm 18.
But, uh, and whenever anybody offers me something, I'm like, no, no, and I, like, I live in my mom's basement, uh, with, like, a couch computer, and, like, but I always seem to take away things that I, like, I guess own, and I don't know why I do that.
Sorry, you said take away things that you own?
Yeah, like I don't deserve it, I think.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
I had a perspective, like when I was talking to my sister, and I came downstairs and I cried a bit, but I forgot it.
Well, I guess it was that I pretty much got everything when I was a child.
My sisters got very little, so I feel I don't deserve it, because I've already had it good, maybe?
Now, did you see your father hit your sisters?
I don't quite remember.
Like, I remember it sometimes, but...
Sorry, do you remember it sometimes happening, or sometimes you remember it happening at all?
I remember it sometimes happening, yes.
Okay, so you saw your father assault your sisters.
Yeah. So I'm just trying to understand what it means when you say you got everything and had it easy when you see the violent assault of a child, which we would all experience as completely horrifying, and you're helpless to do anything to protect your sisters, which of course you wanted to do.
I'm not sure exactly how that squares with Having it easy or getting what you want?
Yeah. I mean, that's a horrifying thing to see, right?
The assault of a child. I mean, if you were in a mall and you saw some big burly guy hitting a little girl, wouldn't you be appalled?
Of course. And isn't it even worse when you know it's going to happen again and there's nothing you can do to stop it?
Yeah. Yeah.
So I don't know what you mean when you say like you had it easy or got what you wanted.
I mean, that's a situation that most of us would pay almost any money to not be in, right?
Well, he would take me hunting, and he still does every now and then.
I'd deny him, and it's hard to call him dad or his name, so I usually just say what I want, and he kind of goes with it.
He used to buy me things, and he'd buy me things now, and he always offers, but I always deny it.
He'd buy an air rifle or a gun because of his tradition.
I always don't want to take it.
And I rarely do.
Okay. Still not sure what it is.
I mean, there's things that I can talk about, but I don't want to talk about stuff.
I want to sort of help you with what it is that's most important to you.
So perhaps you can tell me what it is that you would like to talk about.
Like it seemed urgent that you wanted to talk, right?
Yeah.
Yeah. And I'm happy to do so, but I'm not sure what it is that you want to talk about just yet.
I'm not sure what I wanted to talk about.
I was hoping that I'd say something and you'd be like, well...
Oh, I can do that, but don't worry.
I can do that if you want.
I just don't want to miss something that's important to you.
Like, if you have a yearning-burning thing to talk about, I don't want to miss that.
Well, I guess one of the things was...
Here's a question.
If... You experienced something as a child, but you forgot about it.
Would you still be affected by it?
Yes. Okay.
Because I guess I was so young that I witnessed most of these things, but then I grew up, forgot about them, and they're still within me, like, what he did to my sisters, like, getting really aggressive, and, you know, my mom always fighting, and me always being like, well, what?
Why are you like that? Right.
Trying to be a peacekeeper.
And I've really a deep habit of trying to figure things out.
Like, I have a little book I bring around with me to write in and stuff.
I'm always doing philosophy, but I don't know why I ever did that.
You don't know why you sort of struggle to understand things?
Yeah. Well, I don't know that it matters.
I mean, maybe it does. But the important thing is that you do and you should be, in my opinion, of course, entirely commended for that, right?
Yeah. I mean, that's wonderful and that changes your family in ways that probably hasn't occurred for many generations, right?
Yeah. So, in my opinion, I think it's wonderful that you would have this habit, though I understand it's probably kind of incomprehensible to some of the people around you, to say the least, right?
Yeah. Right, right.
Well, it seems to me that there are two issues that are going on at the moment for you.
The first is that, I mean, not just two, but these are the primary ones.
The first is that you are struggling to understand why your father did what he did, right?
Yeah. And does what he does, right?
Yeah. And wisely, in my opinion, you were going to early childhood experiences.
Yeah. His early childhood experiences, right?
So, like, are I stuck in the past type thing?
I don't know. Don't jump to any conclusions.
I'm just trying to get the lay of the land yet, right?
So you are trying to understand why your father did what he did, right?
And the question is why.
Why are you trying to do that?
I mean, I think I have an answer, but I'm just curious what you think.
Because it can't change what's happened in the past, right?
It's not going to make your sister's childhood or your childhood any better, right?
Oh, so it can't change?
No, obviously it can't change what happened in the past if you learn about your father, right?
Yeah. It doesn't undo a single blow that happened 10 years ago or 20 years ago, right?
Yeah. So why do you think that you are interested in understanding this aspect of your father or how he became...
Pardon? I think you cut over.
Sure. Why do you think it's important for you to understand this about your father?
Well, if I understand that, then it'll shed some light on why they're in so much pain.
Would they be your parents or your sisters?
My sisters. And if I could do that, I could tell them and all would be better.
You could tell them what?
What's wrong? Like why they're in so much pain because...
Well, but why do they think they're in so much pain?
I think they've gotten over it, but the small things I've noticed...
It doesn't matter.
I mean, I understand, and I certainly don't want to break any confidences that you may have with your sister.
Because your sister that you were describing what she said, she seemed to have a fairly good grasp.
Your sister seemed to have a fairly good grasp.
On why she was upset, right?
When you talked to her.
Yeah, she was really...
She got pretty angry and she was like, well, he did this to me.
And whenever I'd get punished, he'd hit me.
I think it's unfair that she was really going at me.
And do you know why she was going at you?
Because I was trying to...
I guess I was trying to I don't know.
I don't think she wants to be better.
Like, I don't think she wants to solve it because she's so angry at him.
And when I was trying to make him, or make it seem like he was a victim, that makes her, like, pain seem less?
Well, it doesn't in reality, does it?
No. Like, she felt more angry when she perceived you as making excuses for your father.
She got more angry, right?
Yeah. And why did she get more angry?
Um... Now you say, well, because she doesn't want to get better, but you don't know that, right?
Yeah, true. Right, because if you're going to have these conversations, and I hugely admire you for doing it, you know, I don't know.
Have you read the book on RTR? Uh, yeah.
Yeah, okay, so when she gets angry, you say, I see that you're angry, can you tell me why, right?
Because, well, she would say, like, well, he was really abusive, and whenever I would do something, or even if I didn't do anything, I would get spanked because of you.
Well, okay, but I mean, it's not obviously because of you, right?
I mean, it's your father who's the problem, not you as a child, right?
You didn't have any control over the family when you were a child, right?
Yeah. So she may take it out on you, but it's not fair, right?
Yeah. Now, how has the family dealt with the fact that the daughters were assaulted?
I guess you could say...
Well, first of all, they split up.
Only my sister didn't...
The first sister didn't get really assaulted much, I don't think.
Well, that would be something to ask her, right?
You need to ask people, not come to conclusions, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Like, if you want the truth, you ask people.
Don't say, well, I don't think...
Because you can just get the facts, right?
Yeah, true. But, sorry, go on.
Sorry, often whenever I do ask for it, though, people get angry and say things.
Well, sure, I understand that, but that means that the family has not dealt with it, right?
Yeah. I mean, has the aggression against your sisters been openly acknowledged as real, as hurtful, as violent, as destructive, and so on?
Yes.
Go on.
Well, it has.
And I'm just trying to figure out if it has been acknowledged why I'm trying to solve it.
And of course, it has been acknowledged.
Why is there still so much conflict, right?
But so tell me how it was acknowledged and how that came about and what happened.
Yeah.
For me or for them?
For them. Like how did your father acknowledge and so on?
I don't know. Wait, but you said it had been acknowledged, right?
I don't know what you mean by, like, how did it get acknowledged?
Like, how did they figure out that they were getting hit, or...?
No, no, what I mean is, I mean, has your father taken responsibility for hitting his children, and that that was a bad thing to do?
No, he hasn't. He hasn't taken responsibility for...
Okay, so it hasn't been acknowledged as a bad thing, right?
No, definitely.
Not for him, but...
Well, who else did the bad thing, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, and that is incongruent, so that makes sense relative to the fact that your sisters are still so angry, right?
Yeah. Right?
Because nobody's acknowledged that they were harmed, right?
Well, nobody's acknowledged as in he hasn't acknowledged, or...
Okay. Nobody's acknowledged as in...
Who hasn't acknowledged it?
My mom, sisters me, and my father still denies it.
So your mother, has your mother taken responsibility for failing to protect your sisters, or does she mostly blame your father?
Oh no, she tried.
My mother was really protective.
Go on. And...
Like, she would do...
Like, one time he was going to take up a belt to hit one of us.
And she says, don't you do that because...
Or whatever. Like, you're saying things bad.
My mom's not that type of person.
Well, for how long were your sisters assaulted then?
Um, well, physically for probably took like eight years or I think.
And then we moved...
Then we separated, and then we came back together at a different house.
And, uh, I guess, could you just say that people can be mentally assaulted?
Oh, yeah. That's actually worse than physical assault.
Okay. Because that one happened a lot more.
And, um...
Once we moved...
To a separate house and then probably to age 18, 17 and then I think I was maybe 15 or 16.
We lived at another house and everybody would just fight and go off at each other about how all this, like everybody's like, well everything went wrong but nobody would actually like calm down and like, well, they'd all yell at each other at the same time which shows that nobody's really trying to solve it.
Okay, look, I gotta tell you, my experience of what you're saying is completely bewildering.
And I think that's just because, not because you're doing anything to mislead me, but frankly, it's just because you're just full of a lot of propaganda, right?
So you say to me, well, my mom was very protective, right?
But her children were assaulted for over eight years, right?
Yeah. So it's hard for me to know what you mean when you say, my mother was very protective, right?
But she let her little girls be exposed to assault for eight years, and then to verbal assault afterwards, right?
Yeah. So do you see what I mean?
The things that you say about your family completely contradict the facts that you give me, right?
Yeah. And I'm not trying to be harsh.
I'm just trying to tell you what it's like hearing it from the outside, right?
Yeah. Well, it's just like, my mom won't be there, or she'll be there, but give him a chance, and he'll blow it like that, and...
Well, I understand all of that, but we're just looking at the facts, not what people say, right?
Yeah. Just the facts.
Not what people talk about, or they would like to believe, or what they imagine would be better behavior, or anything like that.
We're just talking about the facts, right?
So if you say to me, my mom was very protective...
And yes, my family has dealt with this, right?
And your family has not dealt with it at all, and your mother was not protective at all, but rather exposed her children to great harm.
We can't actually talk about anything until you know what the facts are, right?
Yeah. Well, she would always tell me that she was protective.
Oh, I know. That's what I mean when I say you're full of propaganda, right?
So you repeat the party line, so to speak, right?
You just repeat what your parents have told you because that's what makes them look better, right?
And then I ask you what the facts are, and the facts are the complete opposite of what your parents tell you, right?
Maybe that's one of the things, the fact that I'm trying to make everybody look better instead of realizing what they've actually done.
Well, you're not trying to make people look better.
They're trying to make themselves look better, and they've told you all this nonsense, right?
Yeah. I have realized now, though, that my mother is...
She's very sentimental.
Like, recently I realized that she's sentimental and thinks more with her emotion.
And, like, I'll start talking to her about something, or she hugs me a lot, and I'll be like, I'll question the hugging.
She hasn't done this lately, but she now just hugs me and is like, I just love you.
Or, like, she'll say, it's a mother's love, or I love you.
Like a mother, or something like that, to justify what she says.
Right. Or... Right, and the important thing with families and with everything, right, is...
Yeah. It just doesn't matter what people say.
Right? Yeah.
If I said that, that would be pretty...
That would get people angry here.
Like, almost everybody here angry if I said it doesn't matter what you say.
Oh, I completely agree.
I completely agree that it would make people very angry when you said, well...
It's very nice that you have all of these wonderful stories about what great people you are, right?
Yeah. But it only really matters what has actually happened in reality, right?
Yeah. I had a...
Dream. And I'm not sure how you figured out JCs if you've been talking to them before.
But would it be okay if I mentioned it to you right now?
Actually, and I'm sorry to be annoying, but because I've got so many Dream requests lately, I'm asking for Dreams.
And I think that we need to focus not so much on the Dream as yet, but just focus on this reality thing, right?
Which is not...
What people say, because I have a feeling, and it's nothing more than just a gut feeling, and it doesn't mean anything.
It's not real. But I think that you may be attempting to justify or understand your father's behavior because your father wants you to.
Yeah. And that's what your sister's thinking.
Definitely, definitely. Okay, go on.
Like, whenever I talk to him, he's always going on about how they stabbed him in the back, like now, because his mother passed away recently and they didn't give him a call because they're so angry at him.
And he seems to use that to justify himself.
And he'll use things like, this is when they're like, 1920, so it's past Most of the war.
But he'd give them money.
And they would just take it.
Because money.
And they're angry at them. Free money is always nice.
They didn't really take it as a...
Here's money.
I love you. Oh, you love me.
I'll take the money. And he's like, well, they stabbed me in the back because they used me.
And... Well, really, I'd say to him, well, what do you expect when you were who you were when they were young?
Right, he is the victim, right?
That's how he's portrayed again, right?
Yeah, definitely.
He's the victim of ungrateful children, and your mother was protective, and everybody was wonderful.
It's just that, mysteriously, your sisters got assaulted a lot, right?
Yeah. Everybody's a hero.
Everybody's wonderful, right?
But mysteriously, your parents got possessed by evil spirits, possibly Republicans, who beat up your sisters, right?
And it can't be explained because everybody was so nice, right?
And everybody's really aggressively defensive to their side of the story.
No, no, no, no, no.
No, don't go there. Don't go there.
I'm going to pull you back from that brink, right?
Look, here's what your parents are going to want out of this interaction.
There's going to be basically two, well, three layers of defense, right?
The first layer of defense is, we were great, right?
Yeah. Now, when that is disproven, the second layer is, well, maybe we weren't great, but everybody behaved badly, right?
I don't remember that one.
Well, you haven't got past the first one yet.
I'm telling you what's coming, right?
Oh, okay. Because you're still giving me their party lines, right?
Yeah, good point.
So, when you get them to understand that they behaved badly by quoting evidence, right?
I'm not saying you should, but if you wanted to, right?
Yeah. Then the next thing that would happen...
Is your parents would say, yes, I hit my children because they were bad, right?
Yeah. In other words, they're going to say, well, maybe it wasn't good to hit the children, maybe we should have done better, but the children should have done better too, right?
Everybody's equal. We all behaved badly.
Yeah. Right?
Yes. So when you say, well, everybody's aggressive and everybody defends their viewpoint, right?
You're putting everyone into the same category.
Yeah. Right?
But just like saying, you know, if some mafia hitman kidnaps someone and holds him for ransom, right?
And the ransom victim gets into a fistfight...
Trying to escape saying, well, everybody was behaving badly, right?
They both were hitting each other.
They're equal, right? Yeah.
Now, clearly that makes no sense, right?
Yeah, definitely. And why not?
Well, mainly my father was the one who was doing all the hitting.
He's your dad! He's the father.
He has complete authority, control, choice, adulthood...
Freedom, responsibility, he chose to have children, right?
Actually, that was an accident.
No, it's not an accident.
Was it immaculate conception?
Can they walk on water?
Was he having sex?
Was he taking, was he unprotected?
When you have sex, you play Russian roulette, right?
Yeah. Assuming you're not doing all kinds of alternative kinky stuff, you're playing Russian roulette, right?
So, there's no such thing as an accidental child.
Right? He was kind of a...
Well, he liked to, you know, sleep around, so...
And I guess he never really accepted that he was playing Russian Roulette, if that makes sense.
Who knows? It doesn't matter.
Because we're just talking about the facts, not the stories, right?
Yeah. Right?
The fact is, there's no such thing as an accidental child.
It's like playing Russian Roulette and saying, oh my god, he accidentally shot himself.
Right? Right?
Yeah. Sorry, I just have to grasp that because I've always been like...
I guess I've been saying that...
The only woman who could say accidental child is the virgin fucking Mary, okay?
Right?
When the child has to chip its exit scenario through a hymen, you can say accidental child.
you But there's no such thing otherwise.
Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely, yeah. You gave me a new perspective, though, with that, though.
I always figured that, I guess he was sleeping around, and it happened by accident, and his fun was ruined.
Yeah, yeah. I tripped and fell into a vagina.
Yeah, no, I hate it when that happens.
You know, it's like this, right?
You're a hunting man, right?
So you go out into the Into the woods, right?
And you come across an embankment and there are all these holes in there, right?
Where rabbits or other animals, ferrets, they make their homes, right?
Yeah. So if you go reaching and grabbing around in those holes, is it accidental if you get bitten?
Well, yes. Well, no!
No, I'm joking. Right? I'm joking.
It's not like there's going to be a snake or an animal in every hole, but you're taking that risk, right?
Yeah, yeah. See, I'm working the whole metaphor, and it's very subtle, isn't it?
Anyway, but there's no accidental children.
Yeah, I got it. Okay, I can give you another metaphor, probably even more filthy, but I won't.
Okay. So your parents are going to want to say, well, everyone was equal, like the mafia guy is going to say, well...
The guy just punched me out of nowhere.
It's like, well, didn't you kidnap him?
That's not relevant. I accidentally kidnapped him.
Right? My parents probably wouldn't say it was everybody's fault.
They always point at the other person.
But that's the same thing, right?
Huh. Or it's like saying, well, I was provoked, right?
Yeah. Right? But they're ignoring the reality, right?
Like, if I kidnap a guy and then he punches me trying to get away and I say he just punched me out of nowhere, I mean, that's a ridiculous thing to say, right?
Yeah. And your parents had complete control, complete and total control over your family.
They chose to have or keep children, even if we say they're accidental children, keeping them is a choice, right?
There's lots of people who want adopted kids, right?
Want to adopt kids. Yes.
So they're completely responsible, completely and totally and utterly responsible for the emotional life of the family.
150%, right? Yeah.
So if there's bad shit going on in your family, let's just talk about when you were kids, right?
It's 150% your parents' responsibility, fault, and ownership, right?
All accrues to them. Yeah.
Yeah. Children didn't ask to be born.
They didn't ask to be born in this family.
They didn't ask to get assaulted.
They didn't ask to get screamed at.
They're complete victims.
Helpless. Dependent.
Right? Yeah.
I'm still trying to figure out why...
I don't know.
I just... I feel like it's my responsibility or so to fix or reduce myself.
Follow the benefit, right? Follow the benefit, my friend.
Who benefits from you trying to fix the family?
From you taking it as your responsibility to fix this family?
Well, me. No.
No? No. No, because if you found it to be beneficial, you wouldn't call me troubled, right?
Yeah. To give you a silly example, no one ever sends me an email saying, Steph, I had this amazing orgasm on the weekend.
I want to talk to you about it because I'm so troubled, right?
Yeah, that's a good point.
If it benefited you, you wouldn't be talking to me, right?
Yeah. Then why are you doing it?
Well, no. Who benefits?
Yeah. From you taking on fixing the family?
The family? Okay, to your sister's benefit?
Well, yeah, once they...
No, no, no, no.
Not once they, but looking at the facts, not the theories, right?
Did your sister say, thanks, I really benefited from this conversation.
Thank you. No.
No! She got pissed off, right?
Yeah. So, you're not benefiting.
Your sisters aren't benefiting, right?
Yeah. Who benefits from you attempting to explain away your dad's nastiness?
Um... I don't know.
Oh, come on.
Oh, please! Who benefits from you attempting to explain away your father's knife?
Oh, my dad.
Right. Yeah.
Who benefits from you attempting to give me this wonderful snow job about how protective your mother was of your sisters?
My mother. Right.
Now, what it's doing is it's screwing up your relationship with your sisters.
It's making you feel uneasy and upset, right?
It's at your cost and your siblings' cost.
And it's your parents' benefit, right?
Yeah. And that's why you're calling me.
So, really, I'm just kind of like...
Get these fucking vampires off my neck, brother Steph!
Get my parents' hands out of my ass, so to speak, with the hand puppet thing, right?
Because they're the ones who are driving you to explain away all the past corruptions and problems that they are 150% responsible for causing.
You are doing their dirty work.
And you are setting up your sisters to take the fall.
Because you're saying, well, mom and dad are, you know, mom was protective and dad had a bad childhood.
And clearly, you're only still angry because you don't want to get over it, right?
You're asking your sisters to have sympathy towards their abuser.
But if sympathy is a value, surely your mother and father stand far more condemned than your sisters.
Yeah. I mean, am I wrong?
I don't know. If it's really great to be sympathetic towards family members, surely we should be sympathetic to children who are innocent rather than abusive parents who are damn well not.
Yeah. So...
My mom really... Sorry, go ahead.
Sorry. I really believe she tried to reason with him, but he did a lot of weird stuff.
Like... That's basically the story that goes around with them.
I think I've taken it as something different.
What evidence do you have that your mother tried to reason with your father?
Again, you've got to stop saying stuff that's just a story, right?
Forget all that. Just look at the facts.
Maybe she did. I'm not saying she didn't, right?
But I'm always smelling for mythology, right?
Yeah. For justifications.
I think it's just because I think I can't get them.
I can't get the facts.
Because everybody always seems to be so kind of aggressive.
Well, but you see here, you're saying everybody again, right?
Yeah, true. There's a hitman and there's a kidnap victim.
Right? Hitman are the parents, kidnap victims are the children.
Whatever aggression the children are displaying...
It is a direct result of the aggression they experience from their parents.
Yeah. Right?
Now, that's not to say that learning about your parents' history is not important and blah blah blah blah, right?
Yeah. But UPB demands or requires That you can't have more than one standard, right?
Yeah. So if you're saying to your sisters, you gals should have sympathy and overcome the pain of your childhood and learn to love, right? Yeah.
Well, if it's possible for your sisters, then it's damn well possible or was possible for your parents as well, right?
Yeah. But you can't just say to one category of people, you all need to overcome your history and learn to have sympathy, understanding, and forgiveness, right?
Yeah. And the reason that you need to have understanding and forgiveness and overcome your history is because it was completely impossible for our parents to overcome their history, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
But if it's completely impossible for your parents to overcome their history, if their course was predetermined and they had no choice, then the same is true for your sisters and you, right?
And there's no point. This is like a determinist argument, right, where you say to someone, you can't change your mind, and you should change your mind about that, right?
Yeah. It's one rule for...
One last what if.
Hang on, sorry. I just want to make sure that...
I don't want to repeat myself, but I just want to make sure that you understand that last part, because it's very important.
If your parents could not change, you cannot ask for your sisters to change, right?
Right.
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I got that.
And vice versa. Okay, go on.
So what I was going to say was, what if I change my focus onto my father?
Okay. And what if you change your focus onto your father?
And do what? And put the pressure I've been putting onto myself and my sisters onto him.
To do what? For him to realize what he's done?
How is pressure going to do that?
I mean, can you pressure someone into self-knowledge?
Yeah, I see your point.
Can you pressure someone into wanting to learn Mandarin?
Put descriptive pressure onto him, if that makes any more sense.
Okay, let's use the word descriptive and tell me what that means.
Well, first of all, try to figure out what he did as a...
what happened to him as a child, which made him who he was.
No, no, no. Didn't make him who he was.
No? Yeah. Because you're asking people to change, right?
If it made him who he was, then there's no possibility of changing anyone because childhood determines adulthood, right?
And since childhood cannot be undone...
Adulthood cannot be changed, right?
Really? Well, no.
I mean, this is the premise. I'm not saying it's true.
Alright, have you played pool at all?
Yes. Okay, so imagine this, right?
So childhood is like the cue that hits the cue ball, right?
Yeah. And then it just goes karamming across the table hitting stuff, right?
Yeah. Well, if childhood is the cue that hits the cue ball, then there's no point, there's no real point yelling at the cue ball later, go left, go right!
Right? Yeah.
It's pointless, because if you say, my father is who he is because of his childhood, then he has no control over what he did.
He is forgiven for what he did, because life is determined.
Oh, no, I wasn't... No, I meant like to discuss to my father about the cue.
Or discuss to him about that.
Not like say, this is what happened to him.
But I think I might have been doing that.
I think you're right in that sense.
Okay, so let's say that you sit down with your father and you say, Dad, you did bad things because you were hurt as a child, right?
Yeah.
What's he going to say?
Hmm.
that's a good question they probably deny it yeah
I think, but with knowing the way I've been thinking, It's probably inaccurate.
Well, I mean, you know, if you're interested in pursuing it, it's certainly worth doing, right?
I think. Well, I don't feel like I could move on if our problems aren't solved, if that makes any sense.
Your problems being...
But it's not my responsibility.
Right. Your problems being your problems with your parents or something else?
I just want to make sure I understand.
Probably something else.
But that's probably a whole other discussion.
But you said move on and I'm just not sure what that means, what that refers to.
I don't know. Before I talk to you, like, having my sister lecture me about basically what happened to her as a child.
Now, you realize you're making a pejorative phrase there.
A pejorative? Yeah, like a negative phrase, right?
She lectured you. But weren't you lecturing her?
About how she should understand him and...
Well, I was just saying what happened to him.
Well, yeah, I guess you're right.
I mean, just saying, right? I mean, man to man, you know, we're not immune to the lecture curse, right?
Yeah. Pardon just a moment.
Pardon? Okay.
Bye. That's another thing.
That was my mom right now, and...
Whenever she says I love you, or my dad says I love you, or they try to hug me, I rarely return it.
Right, and that's nothing to be ashamed of, it's not bad, that's just another fact for you to work with, right?
That you don't feel the love, that you don't feel the reciprocity, right?
Yeah.
So, sorry, just the last thing I wanted to understand, but you said, if we can't get this resolved, I can't move on, and I'm not sure what that meant.
Yeah.
Well, before when she was talking to me, and she was going on about how she was hitting stuff, She was going on again.
I just want to point out when you're sort of using negative phrases, right?
Yeah. But it doesn't matter.
Now you can go on. Sorry.
I just wanted to point out that there's a harsh language in your family, right?
Yeah, it's a bad habit.
Anyway, so she's telling you about her abuse, right?
Yeah, and I was saying, like, I kept questioning her about, like, she would say, well, what was one thing she said?
I can't remember, but she would say something that I wasn't fully sure of, and I'd question her.
And then she would start going on about something she said before.
And I couldn't link the two.
So then...
Well, I've had that experience.
I looked at myself.
That may be a bit of a family habit, right?
Because there's the facts and the stories, and they're never the twain shall meet, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So what you mean is you can't go on with this family project of resolving the past?
Yeah. But my point is that when I look at myself questioning her and I'd be like, what am I trying to do when I do this?
I feel like I'm trying to solve old issues when it shouldn't be my responsibility, I felt like.
And I went downstairs and for some reason I cried.
I felt like I couldn't solve it.
Right. Well, you can't.
You can't. You cannot solve the problems that your parents have inflicted.
I can't will away the bruise that someone else has inflicted.
And you can't ever solve a problem of violence by lecturing the victims.
All you can do is re-inflict trauma on them by doing that, right?
Yeah. Another issue is that I don't quite remember a lot of what happened, so...
Well, sure, but...
Whenever I ask, I always feel there's a bias.
You ask the victims, right?
If you want to know. Yeah.
Yeah. Whenever I ask anybody, really, I always feel there is a bias.
Even a discussion that doesn't involve my family, like if I'm talking to my friend about politics or something, I always feel like whatever they say has a certain level of bias, and I guess that kind of bounces back onto my family whenever I ask them about something.
If I feel I'm not sure, it's hard for me to take it in.
No, absolutely, and you should trust your instincts about that, right?
If you're not sure about something, there's probably a good reason for that.
Yeah. Right? Not remembering a lot of what happened.
Yeah. Well, but you will see...
The thing is, memories get displaced by mythologies, right?
So, this is a stupid way of saying it, but what I mean by that is that...
The more you listen to people's stories, lies, really, about what happened, the less you'll remember.
But the reverse is true.
So the less you start listening within yourself and other people, the less you start listening to the bullshit that people spread to justify their own actions, the more genuine memories will be available to you.
Because they're all there, right? It's just that they're kind of sidelined by...
By the special effects of people's mythologies, right?
Yeah. And I guess I always kind of fear that I've got my own little special effects I'm unaware of.
Well, yeah, but you won't be able to find those until you let go of everyone else's and challenge those, right?
That's an interesting thought.
You can't get to your own lies until, and I use the word lies here with sympathy for you, right?
But you can't get to your lies until you get rid of other people's lies, right?
Yeah. And usually, in my experience, that once you get rid of other people's lies, there are almost no lies left anyway, but that's just me.
I mean, especially at your age, right?
It wasn't true when I was 30 or whatever, but at your age, for sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
I guess that's one thing I have to figure out is how much I actually gullibly believe of a person.
Well, again, the one habit I would strongly suggest you challenge is this harsh language.
If you're 18 and you believe stuff that your parents have force-fed you, that's not the same as being gullible.
You had to repeat these absurdities in order to survive, right?
Yeah. You're anorexic if you don't eat.
If you're in a cave where there's nothing to eat, you're not anorexic.
You're just starving, right? Yeah.
So, you know, I know that it's hard because your family just sounds like a bunch of WWF bruisers, frankly.
But, you know, try to cultivate some kind of gentle language with yourself.
Instead of saying your sisters are going on and on about what happened to them, just say, well, they're trying to express, however badly, what happened to them.
And instead of saying, well, I'm gullible, it's just like, well, I'm not dumb, but I know what would have happened if I didn't repeat these lies, which is I would have gotten beaten up.
And instead of saying, you know, I got everything I wanted and I had a charmed childhood, just say, well, obviously I didn't like seeing my sisters get assaulted, right?
Yeah. So it's just about the self-RTR, right?
To try and get to the truth of your own feelings about your family and not use these easy, broad strokes words to try and characterize stuff, if that makes sense?
Yeah, I got a really bad habit of being kind of...
using harsh words.
Well, it's... I mean, again, bad habits...
it's hard to say.
I mean, you're 18, you're just coming out of this really difficult family environment...
It's like if you're taught Mandarin as a kid, saying I got a bad habit of speaking Mandarin, it's like, nope, that's just the only language I was taught, right?
So harsh words is the language you were taught.
It's just being patient with unraveling that I think is important and not coming down too hard on yourself for a habit which you needed in order to survive.
I mean, gentleness is not something it sounds like your family has any comfort with at all, right?
No, it's... Yeah.
Everyone is volume 11 all the time, right?
Yeah. Whenever you use the word family, it always feels like my father, my mother, my sisters and me.
It never feels like that's it.
That really has no family aspect to it.
Right. Not in the way that we normally think of family, right?
I call it the ABC, right?
The accidental biological cage.
Yeah. I think I might have to defu and think things out on my own.
Well, certainly that's an option, right?
And it's never something that's off the table, which is true of all relationships.
But I don't think that that's where you are right now.
I think that you need, because you need to separate the fact from the fantasy more.
Otherwise, you'll just take the fantasy with you and reproduce it somewhere else, right?
Yeah, sure. I think I might have become a bit desensitized when it comes to listening to people's emotions or something like that,
because my mother's sentimentality right now, my father's really dramatic personality.
I think that's kind of been harshed out of me, like...
I guess it shows how fake it can be.
Yes. But I guess if somebody's been really emotional, then, yeah.
Yeah, in your family, emotion means abuse, right?
Passion means acting out, right?
Yeah. Whenever anybody gets upset, they just yell, right?
Or hit or whatever, right?
Yeah. So...
Emotions for you are going to be perceived as dangerous, right?
They're signs of imminent attack, right?
Yeah. People don't get irritated, they just get mad, right?
And then they're very sentimental, right?
They don't just feel nostalgic, they weep about the past, right?
Yeah. So everything's way too loud, right?
Maybe I was too young to really remember anything that really happened.
You think that could make sense?
Well, there certainly are things for all of us that are lost to the sands of time, for sure, right?
But you have enough to work with.
You have enough memories to work with.
Oh, okay. Um, I guess that's about it.
Well, listen, fantastic work.
I mean, your gene pool as a whole is incredibly fortunate to have you bungee in from whatever planet of advanced metaphysics you were sprung from.
So I think that you should be enormously proud at the work that you're doing.
And, I mean, to take all of this on, to have this innate desire for all of this stuff at the age of 18, born into the shoot-Bambi environment that you're in, I think is just magnificent.
And I know it's hard work, but, you know, this is how...
Sorry? Oh, no, like that's something to be proud of.
Yes. Because I was starting to feel a little in vain.
And look, knowing when things are in vain is something else to be proud of, right?
Knowing what you can change and what you can't, right?
But man, you should just be hugely proud that at the age of 18, from the environment that you came from, that you're attempting to regenerate your sensitivities and your depth and your wisdom and your empathy and your sympathies.
I think that is magnificent and I think that you should just be staggeringly proud and walk as tall as you can walk for taking on this I have a lot of philosophies and stuff I've developed,
though, which would be interesting to talk about some other time.
Absolutely, and you can always post them on the board, right?
There's lots of people who like to talk philosophy on the board as well.
Yeah, sure. All right. If you do have the conflict, I hope that you do.
I mean, please keep us posted on how it goes when you talk to your dad about his history and so on.
Oh, I could see how it's going to go.
I'm sure you can, but until you know deep down, I think it's important to do it.
I mean, you want to talk to your family as much as you can until there's no other way forward.
Yeah. All right.
Thank you for the talk, though.
You're absolutely welcome. I will send you a link to this.
Obviously, I think this stuff is very helpful.
There are lots of people, particularly in your age group, who are facing the same difficulties, the same challenges, so I hope that you'll consider sharing it.
We certainly gave no information out about you, but I will send you this, and you can let me know what you think.
All right. Thanks, man. Have a good day.
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