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Sept. 12, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:29:09
1149 Inner Critic: The Role-play
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Time Text
Hello. Hey, how's it going?
Well, as soon as the call thing popped up on the screen, I was like, oh shit.
So, a bit of a dip at the beginning, is that right?
Sorry? A bit of a dip at the beginning, is that right?
A dip as in...
Oh, never mind. Anyway, so why don't you tell me what it is that is up for you?
Well, did you get my email about...
All the stuff? I did, but I'd rather you...
No, that's fine.
Well, um...
I, uh...
Well, I've sort of been putting it as a conclusion that I've been, well, I've not, hmm, let me try to start over.
I'm not in therapy right now.
I've not really been calling, like, Even like an average of one a day, I haven't even been reaching something like that.
Just as a metric, right?
Sorry, you said calling?
Like calling therapists to get one.
Oh, okay, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
I don't have a therapist I would go to.
And... And...
Like when I... When I thought about talking about it, I would feel nervous.
I would just be told, well, just do it anyway.
Just make the phone call.
And that's all well and good, but I'm still not doing it.
And I know that it's almost like a catch-22 because the way out of feeling depressed in the long term is to get into therapy and talk to a therapist.
And that sort of thing.
I'm sorry.
Go on. Well, I'm not even sure what I'm feeling now.
I just... I'm...
I mean, I think I'm scared.
And I know that...
Well, I say I know, but...
Like, what reason would I have to be scared?
To go to a therapist.
You know, as compared to.
What my parents would want.
For me to not dig into these things.
And I don't know if.
Not seeing a therapist is a cause or a symptom.
Of something else.
Or if it's like somewhere in between.
You know what I mean?
So that's the main sort of question or issue that you have.
Is why you're not calling a therapist.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah. Now, when you think about seeing a therapist, what's the emotion?
What's the feeling?
Well, it's pretty specific.
At least I think it's specific and tell me if it's clear or not.
When I think about sitting down in front of a therapist and telling them about what I'm feeling and the history, I just...
I think it's just that I feel afraid that they're just going to totally blow me off.
I have no reason to feel X, you know, no reason to feel scared.
So your feelings are going to be dismissed by the therapist, is that right?
Mm-hmm. That's the long and short of it.
I mean, specifically when it comes to anything real, I mean, if we talk about, like, what happened that week, like, you know, just events, then there's really no feeling in it.
But, you know, whenever I think about going anything deeper than just the day-to-day, it just, it comes down to It comes down to feeling...
And I'm not sure if it's just that it'll be dismissed or if it'll be attacked or what exactly.
It's just... Well, those are the same thing.
Yeah, you're right.
Do you think of seeing a male or female therapist when this image comes up?
Who's sitting across the chair?
It kind of happens with both, but it's a little bit different.
Like with a male therapist, it's just like...
Suck it up. Just absolute dismissal.
Like, what the fuck are you crying about?
Suck it up, soldier.
With a female therapist, it's more foggy.
It's kind of like... It's like, oh, that's so sad, but in such a way that you don't think that they're even really listening.
Right, right. Oh, there, there, there.
Yeah, yeah.
Everything's going to be just fine.
It's okay, big fella.
Right, right. Yeah, condescending, patronizing.
Right.
And is this where you want feedback or do you want to talk some more?
I'm not – I think that's where – I think that's as far as I get, as far as imagining where I'd be in a therapy session really.
Well, okay, the first thing is this has nothing to do with a therapist, right?
Because you're not seeing one.
Right. Yeah.
Okay. Right.
I'm totally on board. Right.
So tell me, when I said the word projection, what does that mean to you?
Well, I understand the meaning of the word, but can you tell me where you're seeing us?
Where I'm seeing projection?
Help me out. Okay, sorry, could you just move your mic back a little bit?
You're just a little loud, a little buzzy.
Is that better? Yeah, that's great, thanks.
Projection is when we imagine that other people...
Will do things that we're already doing.
Right? So, I mean, an example which we're all familiar with on the board is someone comes on very aggressively, right?
And then they blame other people for either not responding or responding in an aggressive way, right?
Right. So what happens is they are actually being aggressive, but they only perceive other people as being aggressive, right?
Right. No, yeah.
I can think of one thread in particular.
It stood out for me.
But yeah. Right. And there's lots to it, but that's the Simon the Boxer thing, right?
I mean, projection is the Simon the Boxer thing, but...
How does that relate to you?
To this? Well...
And let's assume that it does.
It might not, but let's assume that it does for the moment.
Right. No, that's fine.
Well, the way in which it makes sense is...
Well, I mean, if I'm already doing it, then that means that I'm doing it to myself already.
Right. So, go on.
Well, if I'm, um...
I've got to minimize the chat.
Sorry. Sorry, Greg. I understand.
Um... Yeah, don't focus on the chat just now.
If there's anything important... No, I just minimize it so I wouldn't get distracted.
Um... Well, I mean, for the one...
Well, if I go...
I hear a rustling.
Yeah, if you're not talking, if you could mute.
Sorry, go ahead. So if I go to one or the other, the male or the female therapist, what's going on is that I'm either telling myself routinely...
Buck up. Quit crying.
There's nothing to feel bad about.
Or, on the other hand, I guess being self-indulgent.
I don't know if that's the right way to go with that.
To be condescending to myself would kind of seem to end up in that way.
Does that make sense? I understand the words.
I'll try and put it a different way.
You think that the therapist is going to reject you, right?
And you feel the experience of being rejected when you think of that, right?
Right. Right, so you experience a rejection of the self when you even imagine talking about your history to a therapist, right?
Right, and you're fuzzing out just there.
Like, I caught it, though.
Okay, so the therapist doesn't have to be present for you to feel rejected, right?
Right. No, you're right.
So who's rejecting you?
Ain't no one else around.
Ain't no one but you, brother, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, if you're rejecting yourself, but you think that by avoiding the therapist, you are avoiding self-rejection, quite the opposite is true.
You're avoiding therapists.
You're avoiding therapy because you want to continue self-rejecting.
Because I guarantee you...
You go to a therapist that you feel comfortable with, you talk about your history, there is no way a therapist is going to do that.
So you think that you're avoiding self-rejection by avoiding a therapist, or you're avoiding being rejected.
But you're actually continuing self-rejection by avoiding a therapist.
You say, Well, I need to keep hitting myself.
I know you won't do it, so I have to do it and pretend it's you, right?
Right. Does that make sense?
Mm-hmm. You want to tell me what you feel about that?
It's still similar.
And what do you mean by that?
Sorry to interrupt since I know you're feeling strongly at the moment, so I won't ask you to talk because I know it's tough.
And this is with all sympathy, right?
But what you're saying is you really miss Beth rejecting you, right?
Well, yeah, at the very least, right?
Your Simon the Boxer punchy guy really misses being rejected by Beth, right?
Yeah. And so you miss that.
In a terrible way, and I have total sympathy for that.
And so with Beth out of the picture, you've got to invent therapists who are going to reject you now, right?
Yeah. Does that make...
And then, you know, the few therapists, you know, one or two that I've talked to, in the intervening time, you know, I... Basically, at least the one I chose, one that would end up rejecting me.
Well, you don't know that.
Again, I don't know what therapist you called, but if you're that hypersensitive or hyper-committed to self-rejection, it may be the case that the therapist rejected you, but it may not be, right? I mean, I'm just saying it's a possibility.
Right, right, right. But don't talk to me.
to me i'm the guy who still thinks he had nine dates to the prom so i'm not good at noticing rejection there's one thing i notice there's one thing i notice Yeah, so what would it mean for you?
What would it mean for you, James, if...
If you didn't reject yourself.
If you were open-armed, fully sympathetic to your history and your pain and your hurt.
If it was as real to you as gravity, as moving to you as a beautiful song.
If you were as sympathetic and warm towards it as you would be to a baby-powder-smelling newborn infant that was cooing and clutching your nose with its little fingers.
If you were as warm to yourself as you would be to your average stray puppy that crossed your path, how would that be for you?
To have that kind of gentleness and love for yourself and tenderness towards yourself and sensitivity towards yourself.
That you would extend the kindness to your own hurt self that you would...
To any wounded bird that fell at your feet, right?
I just think it would be one of the most beautiful things I can imagine in the world.
I agree. I think it is the source of almost all that is beautiful in the world.
So... Why not?
Why is that not something that can be done?
Because you'd have sympathy for a puppy that you saw that was limping, right?
Or even a healthy puppy that just bounded up to you and...
You know, jumped up and wasn't muddy.
You would feel affection for that, right?
Yeah. And if you saw a puppy that was hurt and was whining, you would lean down and you would stroke that puppy's hair and you would speak to it soothingly, right?
You would try to calm its fears, right?
Yeah. So why does a stray puppy get more sensitivity than your own hurt self?
In fact, why do you kick your own hurt self, so to speak, when you would stroke a random puppy?
Why can't you be in that world of kindness?
Why are you never allowed into that happy hug fest of tender sympathy?
I just...
Because I believe, and I'm not saying this is right, or this is true, but I believe that I don't deserve it at all.
I'm sure that's true, and why do you know that?
But then why, right? It feels like a pat answer, but I'll just go back to the parents, but I'm living...
As an adult, by myself now, so...
Right? Which is when it's going to happen, right?
You stop self-medicating to some degree, right?
Yeah, yeah. So this is when it's going to happen, right?
I mean, a lot of what FDR is about is drop the false cures, right?
Yeah, yeah, right.
Right, religion, libertarianism, political action, academics.
Right. Compulsive dating, drugs, drinking, overeating, right?
Drop the false cures, right?
Because they don't work. Right?
Right, so you're taking care of your back, you're eating better, you're exercising more, you have, you know, ditched this relationship that wasn't feeding you, right?
Yeah, it was...
Yeah, no, it was draining.
Eating away. Right, so...
When you kick the drugs, you get withdrawal, right?
And when you quit the cures that only manage symptoms rather than deal with causes, you feel worse, right?
Sure, right, right.
So this is when it's going to happen, right?
And this was the...
So I was trying to find another one, but it just made absolutely no sense at all.
I mean, to say that the therapists are rejecting me.
I mean, I kind of even knew that, but I couldn't shake it.
Right, right. And it's easier to think of the therapists rejecting you, because you have a plan for avoiding that, right?
Yeah. Which is to not call a therapist, right?
Right, right. But if it's you who's doing it, right?
You ever see a movie, When a Stranger Calls?
No, I don't think so.
I never – so they made a remake of it.
I only remember – it's a pretty bad film for the most part.
But man, first 20 minutes of the original version, which I think was the 70s, fantastic.
There's this girl and she's babysitting and she keeps getting these freaky phone calls.
Have you checked the children yet?
Right? Oh, that sounds familiar, though.
I'm sure I've seen a preview for it.
Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. We all know the line, right?
Yeah, yeah. And it's really – it's masterfully directed in the first 20 minutes or however long this bit is, right?
Mm-hmm. And they're trying to trace – they say keep this creep on the phone, the police, which will trace the number, right?
Mm-hmm. And she keeps getting these calls.
The children are asleep upstairs.
She keeps getting these calls.
She keeps getting more and more terrified, right?
Right. And finally they trace the call.
And the calls are coming from inside the house.
Right. And when this, you know, this is the whole thing.
It's beautifully done in the film and it's scary as shit anyway.
Right? Mm-hmm. And we always see this in horror films, right?
Where the guy runs into the room to get away from the ghost, right?
And he slams the door and he locks the door, right?
And then he turns around and what does he see?
The ghost, right? The ghost, right?
Always, always it's the same thing, right?
No matter where you run, the ghost is just over your shoulder, right?
Right. Well, that is a metaphor, right?
Right, it is.
If everywhere you go, the ghost is, if the ghost passes through walls and doors, right, if the murderer is in your house, then the murderer is you.
The ghost is you, right?
The conscience, the history, the rejection, it's the self.
You avoiding the therapist is not avoiding self-persecution, right?
Because you remain hung in the balance.
In fact, you get to add the self-persecution of not calling the therapist, right?
Yeah, and that was actually what really was like, when I realized I was doing that, I was like, oh great, now this?
You know? Like, now I'm kicking myself about this?
Well, this isn't right. Something's not right.
Right, so you get attacked if you go to see the therapist, and you get attacked if you don't go to see the therapist, right?
Right. You get attacked if you call, you get attacked if you don't call, right?
Right. And what do we know about no-win situations?
If all roads lead to Rome, where do you really want to go?
Want to go to Rome? Right.
So if everything you do leads to self-attack...
What I really want to do.
Then, yeah, the purpose is self-attack.
Everything's just an excuse, right?
Right, right. So, I still don't know why you can't live in a world of kindness, where you can't be sympathetic and curious about your fears and say, I'm terrified of seeing a therapist, and I don't know why.
As opposed to, I'm terrified of seeing a therapist.
Well, fuck, I shouldn't be.
Just pick up the phone and call.
Right? Right.
There's no reason... Why you have Sgt.
major self-improvement yelling maggot in your ear when you've read RTR is obviously a bit of a mystery right?
So what is the cost of curiosity for yourself?
What is the cost of gentleness for yourself?
What is the cost of gentleness for yourself?
What is the cost of sympathy for yourself?
What does it cost you?
It costs me that old comfort, doesn't it?
And what's the comfort?
Um...
It's not really a comfort, is it?
But, um...
Um...
Um...
All right, let's ask it another way, right?
Because this is a stall-y one for you, right?
Mm-hmm. What's wrong with self-attack?
I mean, what's wrong with just keeping on doing this?
You can, right?
Most people do their whole lives.
Right, it's not a problem, it's a solution.
Well, so what?
What's the problem? It works, right?
No, I was saying it's not a problem, it is a solution, like we talked about with Greg the other day.
Right, so what's wrong with keeping up with it?
You know how to do it, it happens automatically, right?
What's wrong? And let's start from scratch and say, why is this even a problem?
I couldn't catch that, but...
Why is this even a problem?
Like, what's wrong with just doing this?
What's wrong with self-attack?
I want to say that I'm pretty miserable.
Self-attacking.
Even though it works in the way...
you know, because I keep doing it.
Well, what's wrong with being miserable?
I mean, again, let's ask the question at the level that you're working at here, right, which is not a bad level, right, but what's wrong with being miserable in this area, right?
Clearly it beats something else, right?
Right, right.
Because clearly you feel happier doing this than, or relatively, than some other thing, right?
Right.
So maybe this is the best solution.
It's possible, right?
That's pretty dismal.
But we're trying to connect to the part of you that genuinely believes this is the best solution, because that's what it's doing, right?
Right, okay, right.
Why would this be the best solution?
When you said that this was the best solution, that it was...
My mind went to, this is the best we could do.
Right.
And I just felt cold.
This is the best we can do.
Right, okay.
Go on.
Because if you can't fight a perspective, the best thing to do is to accept it, right?
And say, okay, let's go with that, right?
Okay, right. Let's hear the case, right?
So this is the best we can do, right?
Right. Now, why is that the best you can do?
What's the argument? Clearly it's not universal, because not everybody self-attacks to this degree.
So what is the case, right?
Let's cross-examine. What is the case that this is the best you can do?
What's the evidence? What's the argument?
Whether he's withholding evidence or something, because I just feel...
I just feel completely blank.
Well, get a little pissed and ask him to cough it up.
If he's putting all this laceration onto you, there better be a reason for it if he's claiming that there's a reason.
So poke him with something.
It doesn't have to be a fork, it can be a spoon, but poke him with something and say, no, you don't get to put this condemnation on me and then shut up, right?
So what's the answer?
Why is this the best that we can do?
He's saying because we don't know any better.
Thank you.
It's not really an answer. Put him on.
I don't want to talk through you. Put him on.
So why is this the best we can do?
I didn't hear that. Why is this the best that we can do?
Why is this the best that we can do?
Right.
You said it was the best we can do.
Why? Because he's lazy.
Go on. He sits around all the time.
Right. You constantly have to whip him.
You constantly have to whip him because he's lazy, right?
Sure, sure. Hey, don't give me that condescending stuff.
Don't say sure. I'm asking you a question.
Yeah. Yes or no?
Yes. I still don't get, I think that you're pacifying me.
I don't want to get anything from you that's not true, right?
So you have to whip him because he's lazy and just sits around?
Is that right? Is that right?
I guess I didn't have to whip him.
No, no, no. You stick with your story.
Don't you start changing your story on me now.
You put forward something that is highly accusatory.
Right? So, let's hear why you say what you say.
I'm giving you full carte blanche to make your case, right?
Self-attacking is the best that he deserves because he's lazy and just sits around, right?
That's all he deserves, right?
Okay, so make the case.
Clearly you're pissed off, right?
So let's hear it.
What's so enraging?
He's almost 30 years old.
He's been in shit jobs for the past God knows how long.
He keeps having crap girlfriend after crap girlfriend.
He's fat.
And nothing I do he ever listens to.
Go on.
I don't know how to make him listen.
Go on.
I want to hear this.
Like, I'm not unsympathetic.
I want to hear these criticisms.
I get that you're frustrated.
I really do.
I want to help, but you've got to let it rip.
You've got to bear your anger, your frustration.
Right.
It's like he's a fucking retard.
Go on. I know it's hard.
Go on. Tell me. You've waited 30 years.
Tell me. It's now or never.
Door's open. He keeps blocking me.
Not only does he not listen to me, he tells me to shut up.
Go on. I'm gonna listen to your complaints until you feel satisfied that they're heard.
I promise you that.
So take your time, but tell me.
He's...
He's like he always had to be weird.
He always...
always had to...
be different.
Go on.
He couldn't just act normal.
Go on.
Go on.
Don't self-censor now.
You've wanted to speak.
You've wanted to be heard for decades.
Don't self-censor. Just speak.
I don't know what else to say.
Yes, you do. You can go over the same points again if you want, but you didn't bottle it up for decades to get it out in 30 seconds.
What else? Why doesn't he deserve caring?
Tell me what he's pissed off.
Why has he pissed you off so much?
What else? Come on, I know your fingers are itchy with frustration because you haven't been hurt.
So now's your chance. Speak!
I'm just feeling numb.
I'm sorry. It's okay.
It's okay. So, what we got?
Lazy just sits around, crap girlfriend, crap jobs, fat, doesn't listen, right?
Always had to be weird.
Always had to act differently. Couldn't just act normal, right?
Right? He's always alone.
Never went to find anybody.
Seek anybody out.
Just him and me. What does that mean?
mean he's always alone, doesn't want to seek people out.
Well, it's not quite so true anymore, but...
Instead of...
Instead of getting help, he just sort of...
It goes back to he's lazy, you know?
Instead of sitting around, he just sort of sits...
Sorry, sorry. Instead of getting help.
Like, really getting help.
You know, to satisfy my complaints.
He just goes ahead and...
Well, I guess the complaint is that he doesn't get help.
He just...
Like, he could get help, but he doesn't.
Right, so you mean like he could get therapy, reach out to the community, read some books, whatever, right?
Sure. Anything.
Anything. Pick up... He's got books.
He's got books. He doesn't read them.
Right, right. Or he reads them and then it's like, okay, yeah, I read them.
Well, no. Well, he gets to a certain point sometimes and then puts them down and doesn't pick them up again.
Right, right. Okay, okay.
And why do you think he's lazy?
What's underneath the laziness?
I'm not saying have sympathy.
You can still be mad.
I'm just asking you what you think is underneath the laziness.
Well, I know you well enough to say that I know.
So I can't say I don't know.
Oh yeah, you know, right?
Sure. Oh yeah, I know, I know.
We're still talking to this inner critic, right?
You're still the inner critic here?
Trying to be. Right, because he's so mad, you're so mad, about the crap life, the, as you say, crap girlfriends, crap jobs, won't Get help.
So... If he's lazy just by nature, right?
If he's just lazy by nature, then he's like a tree, right?
We don't get mad at a tree for not running around, right?
Well, that's just it. I know he could.
Right, okay. I know he could do it, but he just won't.
He won't.
Why not?
He doesn't think he's worth it.
He doesn't think he's worth the effort.
He doesn't think he's worth it.
Do you see the huge fucking paradox that you're working with here, Mr.
Critic? James is lazy.
Why? Because he doesn't think he's worth it, right?
And who the fuck is yelling in his ear?
You're lazy. You're fat.
You're awkward. You're weird.
You won't ask for help. You're a retard!
Right? Fucking retard.
Fucking retard. Sorry.
I meant to get that quote right.
I didn't write that down right. I do apologize.
I should get that correct. Right?
Do you see the paradox?
Do you see the cycle here?
Because, Mr. Critic, I want you to get what you want.
I want to help end your frustration.
Do you at least believe that that's possible?
I want you to be hooked.
Sorry. I see the evidence in other people.
Evidence?
What evidence?
Oh, you know, what I mean is other people wrestle and deal with their inner critics.
Who?
Who are these people?
Can you give me examples? - Thank you.
I think I just backed myself to a corner.
Go ahead.
I'm happy to hear. Well, I was going to say I think you do.
Okay, let's say that I do.
So there's evidence of one person, so it is possible.
Okay, let's say that Steph has done it.
Okay, let's go with that, right?
How did I do it?
Did I call myself enough vile and abusive names that I finally became motivated?
Am I driven out of fear of being verbally assaulted by myself?
Is that what creates all of this creativity and empathy?
Fear? Abuse!
Is that the theory?
That I try to help the world in a positive and empathetic way to the best of my ability because if I don't, I'm afraid of calling myself a fucking retard?
Thank you.
Do you feel that that fear of abuse is at the root of the empathy that I have, such as it is?
No. Do dogs become affectionate when you beat them?
No. Do you calm a baby with an air horn?
No. So, step me through.
I could be totally wrong.
Maybe I should be screaming vile epithets at myself in order to become a better human being.
That's your theory. I'm more than happy to hear the evidence if I've made a huge mistake.
in not self-abusing to achieve excellence.
Show me the evidence that abuse leads to calm, happy, motivated, energetic, empathetic positive achievements
well there's no evidence for that that I've ever seen But this is your thesis, right?
Right. So, Mr.
Critic, right? You don't mind if I am a little critical here, do you?
Go ahead. That's not what I asked.
Do you mind if I'm a little critical if I say that I'm trying to do it with good intentions?
And I promise not to be at all abusive.
Nice catch. I won't do it if you don't want me to.
I won't give you this way out.
I won't give you the way to solve this problem if you don't want me to.
I got to say, I'm at least of two minds about it.
Thank you.
We can do it another time.
I'm not going to inflict or impose a thing upon you.
If you don't want to hear, I won't tell you.
And I don't mean that in a petty way or anything.
If you don't want to hear, if you want to keep doing this thing you've been doing for the last 30 fucking years because it works so fucking well, then I won't interfere you with an alternative plan.
I know that James wants you to tell him, but I'm not saying that.
And it's okay. We can pick it up another time.
I'm more than happy to...
We can wait.
You can keep doing this for another month or six months or years or ten years or you can do this until...
You take the final dirt nap.
You can continue to work with your theory.
I'm not going to impose it upon you at all.
If you feel that what you can do is going to work, that screaming and calling him horrible names is going to work and get you what you want, then keep doing it.
I'm not going to interfere with that.
I'm not going to try and fix something that's not even a problem for you, right?
If you feel that 30 years of it not working at all is going to magically change tomorrow and it's going to work and you're going to get what you want and be happy, I'm not going to interfere at all because there's no problem, right?
Put it that way.
And you can throw it in if it doesn't work.
Right. No, put that way, I'm at least willing to hear what you have to say.
So you don't mind if I criticize a little bit?
You can toss it out if it doesn't work for you.
I don't mind. Okay, thanks.
This vampire has to be invited in, right?
So, you say that James is stuck in a rut, right?
Right. He's not changing, right?
He's lazy. Not motivated.
Right? Right.
So, I mean, I guess I just have one question.
Which is, if what you're doing hasn't worked for 30 years...
Mr. Critic, with all due respect, if what you're doing has not worked for 30 long fucking years, and you've never sat down once to think why, doesn't that strike you as a little lazy?
I'm just saying, isn't it a possibility that that's a little fucking lazy?
To just keep doing shit which doesn't work for 30 years, doing the same goddamn thing over and over, and then having the temerity to tell James he's stuck in a rut.
Oh, boy.
I'm just saying.
It's a possibility, isn't it?
It's a possibility, all right.
I think you got James laughing.
You really want to be careful where you swing these swords, because nine times out of ten it's your own head that comes off, right?
Right. Doesn't want to ask for help, you said about James, right?
Oh, man. You said he doesn't want to ask for help, right?
I did. Now, how easy was it for you to get help from me?
How eager were you to ask for help?
I had to be drag kicking and screaming, practically.
Shit yeah, I lost four horses getting you into this room Right?
Right Right So, help me understand how...
Give me one criticism.
of James' character that you don't exhibit even more.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you hypocritical I'm not attacking you at all.
I totally understand how we get stuck in these ruts.
I really do. No, I really don't get that you are.
are i'm just thinking about it the only thing i can really come up with is not even a character flaw is the weight Yes, but that's why I said character flaw, right?
Yeah, no, I understand.
I mean, I don't want to be all tricky on your ass, but that's just sort of why I put that in.
No, I know, I know. That was the first thing that came to mind, and it's like, well, that doesn't work.
Right. Let's see...
Well, he's not exactly exhibiting intelligence, so fucking retards out.
Yeah, I don't think that if you're doing 30 years of things, something that doesn't work, that you could really belittle his intelligence.
And of course, I'm not saying either of you were dumb, right?
This is just defenses, which make all of us retarded.
But I don't think that's the stone you could throw.
No, no, I was just saying, just trying to go through him.
He pretty much took care of Lazy.
Yeah, it's lazy to continue to do the same thing without ever questioning it, right?
That never works, right?
To go that one step further and say, gee, I wonder why this isn't working.
I wonder if there's an alternate approach that could work better.
Let me look at the evidence, right?
Right. The other things aren't really...
What else did I... Oh, won't ask for help.
Do you remember the won't ask for help one?
Right, right, won't ask for help.
You didn't ask for help, you just were condemning him, right?
Right. So if you're condemning someone, you're not asking for their help, right?
No. So you say to James, you fucking retard, you don't ask for help.
But you're not asking for help to get what you want, right?
You see, you're modeling the behavior that you're criticizing.
But worse, because you're initiating the abuse.
Right.
Right.
He's always alone, you said, right?
Right.
What about you?
Seriously, what about you?
Do you feel alone?
I feel like I'm the only one holding it down.
And you're alone, right?
Right. No one else has helped me.
Doesn't want to seek people out, right?
Do you want to seek people out?
Do you like people?
Do you like yourself? Do you like the effect that you have on the personality?
No. I mean, I get that you feel panicked and you don't know what else to do.
I understand that, right?
I don't fault your motives.
I really don't. Execution may not get an A +, but motives I don't fault, right?
That's being quite kind.
Well, but obviously you're not someone who's got an in-depth knowledge of kindness, right?
Despite wanting to do the best, right?
That's all you know how to do, right?
You only have one volume and that's 11, right?
Right. Couldn't act normal, you said.
It's weird. You just can't act normal, right?
Right. Oh, boy.
Now, does normal to you mean screaming at someone that they're a fat fucking retard?
Is that normal?
Is that what you mean? Like, he should be more like that?
Are you normal in this equation?
He's more normal than me?
Well, no. I'm just asking, right?
And I'm not trying to pin you.
I'm just trying to ask, out of genuine curiosity, is screaming...
Abuse at someone, is that normal for you?
Is that what you want him to become?
It would not be what I would consider normal behavior.
Okay, so when you say he can't act normal, he can act more normal...
Sorry, I'm not catching this.
When you say he can't act normal, right?
I'm really sorry we're fuzzing out again.
Alright, we'll wait for it to come back.
Let me know when it comes back. Testing, one, two, three.
Testing, one, two, three. That's a little better.
So when you say, Mr.
Credit, James just can't act normal, and you pretty much scream abuse at him all the time, is it fair to say that he can at least act more normal than you can?
Yeah, I think so.
Well, no, I'm happy to hear how it's not the case, how you are more normal than he is, at least in acting.
I just, uh...
just the way I'm seeing it is what's if I saw this saw somebody screaming at somebody else I would say what the hell is wrong with that guy screaming at the other guy Alright, what if James were to scream verbal abuse at someone who was irritating him?
Would you praise him for that and say, fucking A, brother, way to go.
That's how you do it. Fuck no.
So, help me understand this.
If he does what you do, he's kind of an asshole, right?
Right. No, seriously!
Even not just kind of.
I know, I was being foggy nice, Swiss guy.
Yeah. So this is why we started the conversation, my friend.
And I mean that genuinely.
I want to help. The reason we started this conversation, what word did I ask James to talk about?
Projection. Do you see why?
Yes, I see it.
Okay, tell me what you get about projection now that we've talked about this.
Well, not only have I been acting like a jerk, but I castigate James for doing the same thing.
Thank you.
For doing what same thing?
I'm sorry, for, um...
No, actually, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Yeah, yeah, you might want to take another run at that, brother.
Yeah. Don't drag him down to your level.
level, I think he's been acting a little better, frankly, but that's just my opinion.
If James is lazy, then...
Well, no, wait.
You know I get it.
I know you get it.
This part you've got to do yourself, right?
I just don't want to say it.
I know you don't want to say it.
But this is called asking for help and getting it.
You are actually being served up the medicine that you keep hurling at James.
Oh, boy. Projection in this case would be...
I don't like that I am lazy.
But I'm blaming James for it.
For doing the same thing.
Not the same thing.
Not the same thing.
I'm sorry to be annoyingly precise.
Oh, okay.
You couldn't answer one question as to why James is lazy, right?
Right. But James could answer a lot of questions...
About his own psychology, right?
Because he has been asking questions, right?
Not of me, but yeah.
Well, what I'm saying is that James has shown a level of curiosity about psychological causes that you have not, right?
Right. I agree, not about you.
But... Is it easy to empathize with someone who's screaming verbal abuse at you?
Could you have a smidgen of a cause as to why he's not curious and sensitive towards you?
That fucking lazy retard, as you call him.
might you not have a little bit of a role to play in lowering his curiosity and empathy for you just a little?
No, he's kind of indicating that...
I would say yes.
Right. Yes. Okay.
Let me put it to you this way.
If I had screamed at you, would you have felt empathy towards me?
No, no, I would have checked out.
Right, so...
Right, you see where I'm going, right?
Yeah. Okay, so projection is that you are projecting your dark side onto James, right?
You are accusing him of behavior that you yourself are exhibiting, and he is actually behaving, in many ways, better.
Now, I don't want to sit there because that's something that you can mull over, right?
I wanted to say one other thing to you before we...
Stop talking, if that's okay.
And this is a positive thing, for sure.
Okay. Is that okay?
Yeah, that's fine. How do you feel about the stuff, Mr.
Critic, that we've talked about so far?
Do you feel that it's been reasonable?
Has it been helpful?
because I said I was going to listen to you until you felt somewhat satisfied or satisfied.
Yeah, yeah I think I I think I think I said all the things I was pissed about and um got a got a nice rounding for it a rounding sorry I'm not sure No, I can't think of the word.
A gentle and concerned rebuff?
I'll affirm... I don't know if reprimand has a negative connotation for you, but...
Well, I UPB'd your ass, right?
Right, there you go. Okay, I mean, and that's not unfair, because the statements that you apply to James are UPB, right?
Right. So, I just said, if these are universal standards, how do you measure up, right?
Right, right. Alright.
So, this is the last thing that I want to say.
And this is the most important thing.
And this is for every inner critic on the planet.
Alright? And it goes a little something like this.
Mr. Critic With great power comes great responsibility.
Is that somewhat fair?
Yeah.
Who has, in the Miko system, in the whole menagerie, who has, of all of you, the most power to make James feel like shit?
I don't even think anyone else does.
you I don't think so either, but that may be people you haven't met, right?
Well, yeah, okay.
So, as far as I'm aware, me.
Right. So, you have this immense power, right?
Right.
And given that you have this immense power, this immense power, you have your finger on the you have your finger on the red nuclear button, if you understand what I mean.
No, I follow you.
Right? You have the capacity to blow the whole fucking space station out past Pluto, right?
Right. You have...
The words of mass destruction, right?
The WMDs.
Right. When you have great power, right?
Do you need a heavy touch or a light touch?
I just thought of an infant...
Exactly.
Go on.
Parents have so much power over their children.
Thank you.
So much power over their children.
Do they need to scream at them or have a light touch?
Need to be as gentle as possible and then some.
And then some.
I just posted a dream about this for my own child-to-be, right?
But this is the amazing paradox of the inner critics, right?
And again, with all sympathy to trying to get you what you want, when we're close to people, it's the lightest conceivable touch that we need.
One frown from my wife is like 10 strangers screaming at me, right?
Right. If my wife were to ever scream at me or call me names, it's unthinkable, but if she ever did, I would die.
I would just die.
I would short-circuit, you understand?
I do understand.
It's like...
I would go deaf.
It's too loud a noise, too close in my ear, right?
Yeah. A light, light, light little touch is all that is needed where there is great intimacy because where there is great intimacy there is, by definition, great power.
Right? Right.
You have that power.
You have that power.
You are the biggest, loudest part of the personality.
Everyone's going to listen to you.
But you want them to listen to you out of respect, not out of fear, right?
Deep down, right?
You don't want to run some prison camp, right?
Well, I'll tell you. I almost mentioned it a few times, but I think it's James who keeps thinking of his own father in this regard.
Right. And you are not unacquainted with dear old dad, right?
No, I think I'm practically cloned in a lot of ways.
Right, right, right.
You are the creator of the impact, right?
Right. So, the thing that children want to say to their parents is, gentleness will get you more than everything.
Right. Screaming destroys me because we're so close.
I came out of your body and you're screaming at me?
You don't need to.
We're so close, a whisper is a sonic boom.
Right. If you have a megaphone, you need to just whisper, right?
And you have a megaphone.
Because you're the most powerful part of the personality when it comes to these questions, right?
Right. But sorry, you said project?
I just wanted to make sure I understood that.
Oh, well, I have a habit of projecting, but I was thinking more about projecting the voice of a very loud, large diaphragm.
Yeah, I mean, when you have to reach the back of an opera house, absolutely, you know, sing from the diaphragm and do all that, right?
Right. But when you have your ear...
When you have your baby's ear against your lips, right?
You don't project, right?
No. Gentleness, calmness, curiosity, passion, by all means.
We're not talking about self-paralysis, right?
But no threat.
No threat.
No threatening.
No. In intimacy.
No threatening in intimacy.
Do you understand? Don't bring murder into it.
Tell me what you mean.
Well, based on what you said before, if your wife were to scream at you, you would just Seize up, you die?
Yes. Yes.
That threat would be a way of killing?
Yes. Yes.
And this is how children experience it when the thunder gods scream at them that they're going to die.
Right. Right?
And you are the vengeance of that threat.
I understand that. I really do.
And you're pissed and you've got good reason to, but please don't take it out on the victim.
Right? He needs you.
You understand? He needs you.
He needs your kindness.
because he didn't get it, right?
He needs you so much to be gentle.
He needs you so much to be curious.
He needs you so much To be warm and to care and to be sensitive, right?
Right. When someone's ear explodes because you scream at them with an air horn, they simply can't listen anymore.
And what you do is you yell louder, right?
But there's only a smoking crater where the ear was, right?
Right. More like a bloody mess.
Yeah, it's like a half decapitation, right?
Right. Like your mouth is a shotgun, right?
Right. And this cycle is killing you both, right?
He can't find love in the world.
You can't find peace within him.
He can't stop self-attacking.
You can't stop screaming.
He can't get a good job.
He can't get a good girlfriend.
He can't get his life where he wants it to be.
And neither can you.
It's killing you both.
Shhh.
Shhh.
And only you can put down the WMDs, right?
Only you can lower your voice.
Only you can win back the trust that you have violated.
Not because you're evil, but because you just don't know what else to do yet.
Right. Right.
I was going to ask...
I mean, sorry, you're the one who complains that he doesn't go to help, to get help, but you're the one who's keeping him from therapy, right?
You don't want to be seen because you're afraid of rejection, because you're afraid of death, because you're afraid of being exposed, right?
Because you're not proud of the way you've handled this deep down.
You can't be. Sorry, I'm fuzzing.
You're fuzzing out. Sure.
Well, wait just a second. Let me know when it comes back.
Let me know when it comes back.
It's a little better.
Alright. You don't want to be exposed by a therapist, right?
No. You're not proud.
You're not proud of what you've done in the screaming and the berating and you fucking retardant, right?
It's not... It's not good looking for you, right?
No. No.
And a therapist is going to see that a little bit, right?
It may take a while, but...
That's...
No, that's exactly right.
So you can't...
I mean, you can if you want.
You can do whatever you want. You have so much power.
If you only knew how much power you had, you would be gentle with it.
But you can't criticize him for not going to help, to get help when you're the one who's keeping him because of your own shame, right?
Right.
Right. I bet you you would give a hell of a lot to be able to lower your voice because it's pretty painful to be yelling for 30 years, right?
Right. I mean, you'd like to flop back and watch a movie with everyone else, right?
I get pretty tired sometimes.
Ah, I bet you it's pretty permanent by now, right?
Exhausting. Yeah.
And you know, you know, you're not going to live forever, right?
There's no immortal part to the mortal body, right?
Right. You know he's pushing 30, right?
Yeah. I mean, could be half done, right?
And the first 20 years don't count because you were with the fucking family, right?
Almost the first 25.
Okay, first 25, right?
So you get that time is passing, right?
And that we do not have an infinity of tomorrows to fix the mistakes of yesterday, right?
Right. Just part of the panic you feel, right?
Right. Yeah, that's definitely been on my mind.
Right? Trucks rolling towards a cliff edge and the doors are locked.
Right? Fuck!
You know something's gotta change, right?
Right. And it has to start with you.
It can't start from expecting other people to change.
James to change. Anybody else around the table, right?
Because you can't yell at other people to take responsibility and then reject it yourself, right?
It has to be you who's going to make that change.
Not anybody else. Not because someone else is going to do something or in order to achieve, but just for you.
Right? To recognize the power that you have.
Right? And to use it gently and wisely.
Right. I understand.
Or, you know, I understand in theory it's going to take a while to get into practice.
Well... The thing to do is, I want you and James to write down all the criticisms, all the criticisms, right, that you have of him.
Put them in one column, right?
This is an exercise in being humble, which is not easy, but, right?
When we have great power, we need great humility, right?
Because with great humility comes sensitivity, right?
And self-doubt about the exercise of power, which is what keeps us quiet, right?
Right, right. So, list down all the criticisms, and if you forget some, just ask me, I'll email my list to you.
That you've applied to him, and be honest, right?
Because you're all about truth and honesty, right?
Be honest and say, how have I fallen short of my standards?
This is an exercise everybody should do, in my opinion.
The inner critic, if he feels self-righteous, will never, with all due respect, shut the fuck up, right?
As long as it's everybody else's fault, and everybody else is falling short, the inner critic will always be fucking trumpeting from the top of the planet, right?
Right. You little people do disappoint me, right?
Right, right.
You mere mortal fools do not arise to my lofty standards, right?
Right. But UPB is a pretty powerful thing, right?
Let us judge our gods by their commandments, right?
So they can learn to whisper and not send a fucking tornado and a tsunami and a flood, right?
Right. Let us mortalize our gods and subject even our greatest kings to the law, right?
to the law they proclaim.
Measure them by their own standards.
Yes.
To bring humility and gentleness to the exercise of power.
Right?
Does that sound like a plan that could give you what you want, Which is the love and the career success and the happiness and the weight loss that you want, that all of you want?
I mean, you want to hold a child in your arms, don't you?
Thank you.
You want to go to bed every night with someone who worships you and who you worship, right?
You want to have a happy and productive and powerful career, right?
Yes. You want to add to the virtue and beauty of the world, right?
You don't want to add to the screaming and the verbal abuse and the violence and the you fucking retards.
You don't really want that to be on your tombstone.
I called him a fucking retard for 70 years.
That's not what you want as your legacy, right?
I'm appealing to your greed, right?
That's not what I want.
No. And you know, if you're screaming fucking retard into James' ear, what kind of woman's gonna want to hang around?
You're not gonna get the love that you want.
You're not gonna get a warrior princess, right?
I'm going to get a leech.
Yeah, you're going to get somebody else who's got an even worse inner critic, right?
That's the price, right?
Right. So stop using James as a poison container for your own shame, right?
And your own frustration.
And your own inability to temper your own temper, right?
Okay. Is it a plan that we can put into practice now?
Start? Yeah, I think so.
Okay, tell me what part you don't think so.
No, I'm sorry. I don't not think so.
What? Oh, come on.
Stop weaseling me. Just give me a yes or a no.
Yes. Is this a plan that we can start with, or is there a better plan that you have, or do you want to just go back to screaming yourself horse for the next 40 fucking years?
Because it's the only three choices.
You follow this plan, you come up with a better plan, or you keep doing the same thing.
There's no magical fifth choice or fourth choice, right?
Right. I'm all ears if you have a better plan.
I'm yelling this from the outside.
I don't know, right? Right.
I don't have any better ideas.
I'm going to go with this.
Right. And listen, if you have a better idea when you're going through this plan, speak up.
You don't yell, right?
Don't flip the table and pound your fist through the wall because that's childish in the worst way, right?
That's not becoming to you.
That's beneath you because you have so much power.
You can be gentle, right? So, this is not my plan.
If you think it'll be helpful, sit down, go through the exercise, figure this out, experience the humiliation, face your fears like a man about therapy.
And if you have better ideas along the way, speak up, sit down, negotiate, right?
Right, right.
Right, don't be an angry infant or a raging god.
Be a man. Right?
Right. Alright, well that's it for anything that I have to say.
Was there anything that...
I mean, how did this conversation go for you, Mr.
Critic? I mean, was there useful stuff?
Was there anything that I could have done better?
I mean, I want to hear criticisms.
I'm happy too, right?
No, I got thoroughly owned.
I wasn't trying to, but...
No, it wasn't you that did it, anyway.
Hoisted by my own petard.
And that's what you wanted deep down, right?
I don't want to do this anymore.
No, you don't. You don't.
It's you who wanted the call, right?
Yeah. Save me from myself!
We all have that, right?
We all have that. You're not alone.
You are in everyone, right?
Right. Right?
We need you, right?
We need the power that you have.
We just need it with us, not against us, right?
Right, right.
I found this...
I found this incredibly difficult, but helpful and I'm really willing to give it a shot.
I mean, what else do I have to lose right now?
Yeah, I mean, I sort of get that.
You're done with this, right?
Yeah, right. And you did magnificently, let me tell you that.
You did so courageously and with such grace.
Very difficult things.
Very difficult things.
I think you should be unbelievably proud of what you did.
Because you're not so much with getting praise, right?
People just kind of run from you like an ogre, right?
But you did just beautifully.
Yeah, people just cower, hide.
Yeah, that's okay.
You just dial down the volume a little and you'll find everybody wants you around the campfire, right?
Right. Okay, well, I don't want to interfere with what you guys need to do.
So, is there anything else that you wanted to add?
I guess either of you or anyone else?
I can't think of anything else right now.
Okay. Well, keep us posted about how it goes, right?
You guys so much need each other and you have so much to offer each other, right?
You stop fighting, the world will be yours.
Alright? Thank you.
You're very welcome, and I will talk to you guys soon.
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