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July 29, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
50:08
1117 How to stay out of the Army

host of Freedomain Radio, talks a young man out of joining the Army.

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Hello? Oh, hi, it's Steph.
How's it going? Hi.
It's, um, yeah, it's Asti.
I'm doing well. All right.
So, I'm glad that you agreed to a chat.
Obviously, don't use your real name or anything like that, but I'm glad that you decided to go for a conversation.
So, I don't have much to say up front if you'd just like to tell me a little bit about What's going on that had something to do with this decision?
Well, I was going to go to college right after high school.
I just graduated. I'm 18.
Graduated in June. And I was going to go to a really good college.
I had like $10,000 in scholarships, but those were only towards that college, so they couldn't apply to any other college.
But I couldn't get the rest of the money to pay for tuition.
I didn't have anywhere to stay.
My dad doesn't want to help me.
I don't have anywhere to go.
And I have no job.
I can't get one. I mean, I could get one after maybe a few months, but that's not quick enough.
Right. And it was a pretty substantial sum that was missing from your education, is that right?
Half, yeah. I had like $15,000 towards it and I needed $15,000 more.
And how much of your education would that have paid for?
That would have paid for one year.
And how long is the course?
The course, I was just paying for two semesters of school.
Well, I mean, how many years is the program as a whole?
Oh, it's four.
I would be going for a four-year bachelor's degree.
Right, okay, okay.
And is it mostly tuition or mostly living expenses that is the cost factor?
It's mostly tuition.
And it's an art school, is that right?
That's right. What kind of art, just out of curiosity?
I would probably be studying digital design, cinematography, and photography mostly.
I got accepted based on my photography.
Right, right.
And when you say there are no jobs, just sort of help me understand what that means.
Well, America is basically in a small recession, as you probably know.
I've applied at tons and tons of places.
We got no callbacks.
I applied at Disneyland.
They said they're not going to be hiring for a few months.
Nobody's going to hire.
I can't get any money, so I'm screwed.
Tell me then what led you to the Army as an option.
They have a great education program.
I got a really high score on the ASLAB. I would be getting invaluable training in computer technology and stuff.
I'd get a lot of money, of course, free living expenses and all of that.
There's a lot of benefits aside from the fact that it's not up to my moral standards, which is a really big detraction, which is why I'm still I'm heavily considering trying to find a way out, but I haven't had much work with that, so I'm still planning on going.
Right, okay. So if your education is going to cost you $80,000 all told, is it true that if you spend five years in the Army, that will all be paid for?
Is that right? Yep.
Okay. Sorry, I'm hearing some background noise there.
Is there any way you can shut that off?
Yeah, sorry. Can you hear it still?
Yes. Somebody else is watching TV in another room.
Okay, no problem. It's no problem.
I was just wondering. Okay. Now...
If your mind is made up, then obviously I'm not going to change it for you.
I don't have to make any of the moral arguments about this because you're fully aware of at least where I would come from, from that standpoint.
So it would seem to me that all that's left is the practical standpoint, right?
Yeah. Like if I can describe a way for you...
To find a way to possibly pay for your education, then the army would become a non-option for you.
I mean obviously you don't prefer to go into the army, it's just that at the moment it feels a necessity for you because of the financial aspects of your education.
That's right. Now can you tell me, just because photography is not a field that I'm very familiar with, Can you tell me why it is that you need a four-year degree in order to get a job in photography?
Well, my four-year degree would be beyond photography.
It would be for, you know, just general, a lot of arts and any sort of artistic job takes time to make a name for yourself.
and college would help me do that.
That's also it.
I mean, I could go to another school, but...
Well, I'm just sort of trying to understand why...
So you say that if you go to a college, it will help you make a name for yourself, is that right?
That's part of it, and it will give me pretty good training and a lot of stuff.
Sure, I'm just wondering.
I mean, I have some friends who were into photography, and they obviously did a fair amount of self-study, but they also worked at places where they got to learn the ropes, if that makes sense.
Right. Sort of like an apprenticeship thing, if that makes sense?
Yeah. And have you looked into that at all?
I haven't. Okay.
I mean, that may be an option or a possibility.
You know, like if you wanted to get into any of the trades, like plumbing or electrician, you would sign on as an apprentice.
You don't have to go to four years and spend $60,000 in order to become a plumber.
You sign on for an apprenticeship program and so on.
I'm not equating photography or art with plumbing, but there are ways of getting that kind of training, getting that kind of on-the-job experience and getting those kinds of contacts Without having to go through a formal process of almost half a decade's worth of education, if that makes sense. Yeah.
I'm just throwing out possibilities.
Obviously, your life is to do with as you see fit, but I'm just throwing out possibilities.
Because if you go into the army, you're going to spend half a decade not doing what you want, right?
Yeah. Well, it won't be completely not what I want.
I mean, in my own time, I'll probably do a lot of stuff of photography.
I'll be going to school for free during my enlistment.
So, okay, just so...
Sorry to interrupt you, but just so you...
Because I don't know anything about the ins and outs of this.
So you're saying that while you're in the army, you will be going to school?
That's right. And so you won't be deployed anywhere?
Well... If I'm stationed within the States in my off time, I could go to night school.
I could get a lot of credit there and they pay for any community college I go to 100% during my enlistment and they also pay for any online courses I want to take.
Now you say if you're in the US, right?
If I'm in the U.S., they pay for a community college if I want to go to an actual class.
But no matter where I am, I can take online courses for free.
Sure. Okay. Got it.
Well, not for free, but paid for by others.
Well, yeah. It's free for me.
Right. Although not.
Because you're giving up time, right?
Oh, yeah. Right?
I mean, you're giving up five years of doing what you want to do.
It's certainly not free, right?
Right. I mean, I'm not trying to be semantic.
It's just important to recognize and not use the words that aren't fully accurate.
Now, what kind of control do you believe that you will have over where you get sent once you've enlisted?
Actually, I have very little control.
I have a small amount of choice.
They tell me I get a wish list, which...
I don't know how much authority my wishlist has over where I get sent.
Well, it doesn't have any authority because it's a wishlist, right?
Right. I mean, they're not bound to send you where you want to go, right?
That's right. Otherwise, nobody would be in Iraq or Afghanistan, right?
Well, some people would.
The assholes would. Okay, you're right.
A few lunatics would be there for sure, but not 200,000, right?
Okay, so you don't have...
I mean, we're just talking about the bare facts, right?
So, functionally, you have no control over where they're going to send you, right?
Right. Now, you say that it's a five-year commitment.
You're aware, of course, that they have stop-loss programs at the moment, right?
Stop-loss? What's that? Well, what it is is that they can unilaterally extend your obligation to them without you having to sign any additional contracts.
I wasn't aware of that.
Have a look into that.
That is fairly important.
Obviously, a lot of people who signed up for a particular term commitment have found under the Stop Loss Program that they're simply not released from their obligations to the military in the time period that was specified in their original contract.
The second thing to look into is the fact that The army, even after you have returned to civilian duty, the army can recall you at its whim for a number of years afterwards, and you then have to go and serve another tour or more.
Right. So, I mean, there was 60 Minutes where some woman left the army years ago, she's having her second child, and she got the call, and she had, you know, four days to get herself her life in order, and she had to leave her crying children behind and get shipped off to Iraq.
Yes. So, it's not five years, or at least there's no guarantee that it's five years, right?
Right. And it's not like the U.S. is going to wind down its overseas operations.
I mean, there are 800 bases throughout the world operated by the United States.
They're building permanent bases in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They're still in Japan 60 years or more after the end of the Second World War.
So the vast majority of what is required for active duty personnel would be overseas.
I mean, that's whatever your wish list is, the high, high, high likelihood is that you're going to be shipped overseas for an indefinite period of time.
Right. Okay, and we're just going through the facts here, right?
Right. So, that doesn't sound like it's enough to veer you away as yet, so I can keep going if you like.
Yeah. Okay.
Now, are there jobs anywhere in the United States What do you mean?
Well, what I mean is that the economic downturn cannot be hitting all industries simultaneously in all places in the United States.
That's not how a recession works.
A real depression can work that way, but it must mean that there are jobs in California, there are jobs in Utah, there are jobs somewhere in the United States that would be suitable for you to work at.
Maybe. No, for sure.
Sorry, that's not a maybe.
I have absolutely no training.
You know, I'm just a high school graduate.
No, I understand. I understand that.
But what I'm saying is that there are jobs...
There is a job somewhere in the United States that you could take.
That much I can guarantee you.
Okay. Yeah.
Okay. Now, if you join the Army, you obviously won't be living at home, right?
Right. You will be living somewhere, very likely, in some godforsaken desert ass bucket somewhere in Tatooine, pretty much, right?
Okay. So, you are going to have to move to get the money from the military, right?
Right. I don't really have a home as it is, and I don't have too much property.
Right, but what I'm saying is that in order to get the money from the military, you're going to have to leave where you are, right?
Right. Well, I'm okay with leaving where I am.
That's... Well, that's good.
That's good, because what that means is that if there's a job somewhere for you in the United States, and you're fine with moving to get money, then you can move to where that job is.
Oh, yeah. Does that make sense?
I mean it opens up your possibilities if you're in some small town or if you're in some place where there's no jobs around.
If you have to go to Alaska to be an oil rig worker or something, you can go somewhere to get a job and you're going to have to do that for the military anyway, right?
Right. So moving will get you a job even if there's not a job somewhere around, right?
Right. Because the willingness to move is one of the economic advantages that you are bringing to the situation of looking for a job versus everyone else who doesn't or can't move, right?
Or who won't. Right.
Okay. So, let's see.
I'm not aware of...
Well, I mean, I'm not personally aware of any place that would be...
Oh no, I understand that.
Look, I'm not saying this is easy, but we can all understand that joining the military is not easy either.
Right. I'm not saying this is snap your fingers, you know, ping Craigslist and get a job doing something, right?
But you can get a job somewhere in the United States, right?
Yeah. All right, so...
I mean, just my own experience was to go through university.
I mean, I took a year and a half off after high school, and I went and worked as a gold panner for...
company up north.
And I worked there in the bush for a year and a half and I would take time off to come back to the city.
But the good thing was that they put money into my bank account while I was out there bushwhacking and there was no stores to spend.
And I lived in a tent and I ate the food that they sent me.
And again, I'm not saying you have to go that kind of Grizzly Adams route, but there is a possibility that you can take some time off between graduating high school and going to university in order to save up some money to attend school, right?
Right.
Because what you're looking at now is five or more years of not really doing exactly what you want to do.
As far as I understand it, people in the army are fairly busy.
I don't know that they have a lot of time for night school.
I don't know if you can do night school in Iraq.
But... You're going to be spending a fair amount of time not doing what you want to be doing in terms of the arts and so on.
So if you spend your time at a job – and then, sorry, when I was in university, I worked as a waiter.
When I was – there was a recession in the early 90s, which is probably, I don't know – I'm trying to think.
You were probably just being born or something, right?
But there was a recession in the early 90s.
I couldn't find jobs as a waiter.
I couldn't find a job as a temp.
I ended up doing gardening.
I actually spent about a week taking someone's elderly grandmother around and showing them the town because she had arrived unexpectedly and they were all busy at work.
I mean, there's tons of things that you can do, some of which are more off the grid than others, which will allow you to have some kind of income.
I moved boxes.
I painted. I set up offices.
I mean, there's lots of different things that you can do once you get into that kind of work environment, even if you don't have a lot of skills.
Waitering is a fantastic one.
You don't need a lot of skills to be a waiter, but you can make a lot of money in terms of tips.
Right. So...
Let's say, I can't remember and I can't even do the translation of what it means exactly now to get a job, but I think you could probably make about $25,000 a year as a waiter, right? Maybe.
Well, that would be about right.
If you're full-time, you could make $25,000 more as you get used to it and get faster with your tables.
And, of course, a lot of that is cash, right, through tips.
Right. Okay, so if we look at, and we're just going to do some rough math here, I just want to put all of this in perspective for you, right?
Okay. So let's say that you can make $25,000.
At the moment, you're looking at deferring your education for five years, right?
Right. Or, I know it's not exactly deferring, but it's something like that.
So, if you put $25,000 over five years, you have $125,000, right?
Yeah. Which would be your gross income.
Now, this is a lowball, because $25,000 a year is like $12.50 an hour, and there's not a lot of waiters who only make $12 an hour.
But let's take a conservative estimate just to work it out, right?
Okay. Okay. Now, let's say that you can find a way to live on half of what you're making Which is not inconceivable given that a lot of this is cash and the taxation is lower at that rate and so on.
What I did when I was in my master's was doing my master's degree.
I took a room in a house.
I took one room in a house with five other people and I was paying $275 a month in rent.
Now this was in downtown Toronto so I'm sure you could get someplace that's the same price or cheaper if you're not in a major city, right?
What was the price you said?
I was paying $275 a month for rent.
I mean, there was food and so on.
If I had roommates?
Yes, absolutely. I had four roommates.
Right. Okay. And I biked to work.
I didn't have a car. You know, all of those kinds of things, right?
Okay. Yeah.
Now, if you can live, and I'm sure you can, on half of what you're making as a waiter...
Then you're going to come out of that, right, with $62,500 in savings, right?
After five years? Yes.
Now, if you take what you're saving and you invest it over five years, you will probably, I'm not going to try and do the math in my head, but you will probably be closer to $75,000 to $80,000, right?
Mm-hmm. Which is, coincidentally, the price of your education, right?
Right. So, let's look at it from this standpoint.
If you are a waiter, then you're going to be probably working split shifts.
So, you'll be working like 11 to 2 and then maybe 6 to 10 or 6 to 11 or whatever.
Maybe you'll be a bartender, maybe a waiter, maybe whatever.
It doesn't matter, right? Mm-hmm.
So, this gives you a...
Obviously, you can sleep in and if you're into arts, I'm sure that you're a night owl.
Lord knows we all are, right?
Right. So, you can sleep in and this gives you...
A fair amount of time to work on your photography, to work on other kinds of arts, to join photography clubs where you can ask questions and learn things from other people without paying much, if anything, right?
It allows you to – if you want, you can take also a part-time job somewhere in the arts, whether it's working in a camera shop or anything like that that's going to get you – and there's lots of different things you can do.
I'm just throwing possibilities out there, right?
So it's not like during this five-year period you are – It's not like you are not advancing your artistic goals at all, right?
Because you'll have lots of time to be able to pursue the development of these skills on the side, right?
So, there are some pluses to this, obviously, right?
First of all, this is closer to your moral ideals, right?
Yes. Because you are engaged in a voluntary transaction with people, you are not going to be contributing to murder, death, imperialism and all that kind of stuff, right?
Right. So morally, I mean, nobody's going to ask you to starve for your ethics.
If you have to starve, ethics doesn't matter anymore, right?
But if there's any way to do it, which allows you to get what you want without the ethical compromise of signing up to be part of the combat death squad fatigue dudes, then that's a plus, right?
Right.
Now, the other thing, of course, is humanity.
is here you retain control over your life, right? - Right. - So you are your own man during this five year period.
Now, if it turns out that you're a really good waiter and you can start to make 30 or 40k a year, it's not going to be five years.
It's going to be three years, right? Right.
So, you are your own man.
You're not signing your life away.
You're not putting yourself into the hands of the military to send you to do whatever and wherever and whenever you like.
You're not setting yourself up for the risk that they may be dangling a bunch of stuff in front of you that changes after you get in because they can always unilaterally extend your time in the army, right?
And... So, to me, there's a lot of pluses, you know, morally, economically, from the standpoint of retaining control of your own life, not signing yourself up to be in the control of some pretty brutal people in a pretty brutal environment.
So, I'm not saying this is a clincher, but this is a much more positive case in many ways, right?
It is. Do you want to talk about what I've talked so far?
because I have a couple of more points to make that I hope will help.
Well, there's a lot of good things about, you know, what you're saying, the position that I would be in if I followed your advice.
But I am still just unconvinced that it's possible at all for me to find any place to live with roommates or anywhere.
That would be near a good job.
I don't know if I could do that.
Well, it's possible.
and you're an intelligent fellow.
As you say, you did very well on your test to get into the Army, right?
Right. You're an intelligent fellow.
There's the free domain radio resource where people all over the world, in fact, maybe you could go and teach English in Japan, right?
There's tons of cool things that you could do which other people can help you with, right?
You're not alone in making this decision.
There will be people around.
If you want to take advantage of the community, there will be people who will be happy to share their experiences and their history, to make suggestions and so on, not just in free domain radio, but anywhere that you look on the Internet.
The Internet, of course, is a fantastic place to find out where the reasonable and decent jobs are and so on.
Right.
So I'm not saying it's a done deal, but it's a possibility.
That's all I'm saying.
Right.
and do you mind if I just I'll just say one more thing and then I'll sort of ask you what you think and feel about all of this.
Okay. This is a little bit more personal, but I actually think it's the most important aspect of the decision that you're facing at the moment.
Yep. What do you think that five years, being ordered around by a bunch of sociopaths, Doing work which is fundamentally against your moral principles.
Serving a corrupt and evil empire and contributing potentially to the deaths of innocents around the world, what is that going to do to you as a human being?
Well, um...
Well, if I end up going through it, I'll probably Try my best not to think about it, but if it were on my mind, the facts of the situation, I'd probably feel pretty shitty.
Right. Well, I think you would, and I know that you are a sensitive and intelligent human being.
I remember that from your time posting on the boards.
You have a lot of curiosity.
You have a lot of empathy.
You are a little cold towards yourself, which is why this is probably even an option for you psychologically.
But... When you come out of the army, let's take the best case scenario that you don't get posted to any combat zones, that it's only five years and so on.
When you get out of the army, you are going to be a different human being than when you went in, right?
Maybe. No, there's no question that you will be a...
because that's the purpose of the army, right?
They break you down and they build you up again, right?
Right.
They employ intense psychological pressure using techniques of mental assault and breakdown that have been refined over thousands, if not hundreds of years, which no man or woman can stand in the face of, right?
Right.
Right. Right. Right.
A broken down, angry with yourself, triggered with anger towards the world.
I mean, there's a reason why so many of the people in the military come out and end up homeless or in mental hospitals, right?
I mean, they break you down.
Yeah. So if you stay in for five years, it's because they have successfully broken you down, right?
Maybe not. I mean...
I'm actually pretty confident about my ability to cope.
More than cope, I can brush things off.
I feel pretty mentally strong.
Sure. Do you think that you will be able to fool them, like the people who've been doing this for 20 or 30 or 40 years, maybe not 40, but for 20 or 30 years, and who have seen thousands and thousands of young recruits come in, and if they've well honed their techniques to break these people down and turn them into compliant sociopathic robots, do you think that you will be able to fool them and master their situation with zero experience in this kind of environment?
Well, my dad's been an asshole and I fooled him.
Of course, they're much more trained.
I'm pretty confident that I can get by and that I can at least make them think that I'm an average soldier.
Well, I mean, you're 18, so you're full of confidence and I respect and admire that.
And I certainly don't wish to Puncture any legitimate confidence that you have, but I guarantee you that you will not be able to fool them.
I guarantee you that you will not be able to pretend that you're broken because they know exactly how to spot that kind of stuff.
It is their job to weed that kind of stuff out of the army to make sure that the people who go in are going to be reliable and broken individuals.
And I would not at all, and I went to a theater school and I'm a fairly good actor and I'm fairly robust mentally and emotionally and intellectually, I would not for a moment imagine that I could fool some drill sergeant into imagining that I had been broken when I had not been broken because that is exactly what they're trained to do and to separate.
They only get that job if they can do that with almost 100% accuracy.
So... I'm telling you, if you think that you'll be able to fool them into thinking that you're a good soldier when you're not, I can guarantee you that that is not the case.
I mean, there are things which I will be murky and hazy upon, but I just want to be upfront with you to understand that.
There is no way that hundreds of years of highly developed indoctrination practiced by people with decades of experience doing exactly this on an 18-year-old guy who's never had any experience being broken down in this kind of institutionalized and systematic manner, there is no chance that you will be able to fool them.
And what that means is that if you go into the army and you stay into the army for five years, you will come out a different human being.
You will not be who you are when you go in.
You may not have an artistic bone left in your body at the end of this process.
I'm not guaranteeing it.
I don't know. But there's a strong possibility.
The army is not known for helping people find their inner creative mojo, right?
Right. So, the desires that you have...
I mean, wouldn't this be a tragedy?
Right? These are just possibilities, right?
I'm just giving you the scenarios, right?
The case scenarios. Wouldn't it be an absolute tragedy if you went in to the army to be an artist and you came out of the army so broken that you could not be an artist?
Yeah. Now, you're not going to face that risk if you're a waiter, right?
They don't have boot camps for waiters, right?
Right. And let me give you one other thing that I think is important.
The army does not promote negotiation, right?
They have a chain of command and they have a buttload of guns, right?
Right. In fact, your capacity to negotiate will be repeatedly pounded out of you, right?
Right. When you leave the army, my friend, and you try to go into the business world, into what is in some ways, alongside the software industry, the most entrepreneurial aspect of the business world, you're not looking to be a union worker at a Ford plant, you're looking to make it in a highly voluntary artistic community, right?
Right. So you're going to need a lot of negotiation skills.
You're going to need a lot of people skills.
You're going to need a lot of sell yourself kinds of skills.
You're going to need to be likable, right?
Right. Five years of being screamed at, bullied, chain of command, whipped...
Is not going to produce someone, even if you retain your artistic desires and abilities, which I strongly doubt, even if you did, what kind of personality and kind of ways of interacting with people are you going to come out of the army with and try and compete with people who never went into the army to compete with people in terms of being a positive, fun, enjoyable, spontaneous, creative artist to have around.
Well, um, I probably will be missing in those areas.
Again, there's no way to predict in advance other than this is what the army does, right?
So, the army is a brutal machine and we know statistically what comes out of people, what kind of lives people end up with after the military.
They either stay somewhere in the orbit of the military and by that I mean they get into security companies, they go to private military companies like Blackwater, they go to become cops or they become prison guards or they become guards at psychiatric institutions or maybe security guards or work for security companies.
It's very rare that somebody who's been in the military for an extended period of time comes out and becomes a mime, right?
They are drawn towards these brutal hierarchies because that is what has been pounded into them and the capacity to operate outside that model has been pounded out of them through the process of being in the military.
I say this with some knowledge.
I worked at a company where there was a lot of ex-military people.
And they could not negotiate.
They were screamers.
They were brutal. They would pound the table with their fists.
And the company failed.
Because people just didn't want to work for them.
And that's who you'll be when you come out.
Not because you're weak, not because you are weak-minded or because you don't have stamina.
That's what they do and they're very good at doing it.
And they have thousands of years and decades of experience to develop and implement this kind of program.
So, what I'm trying to keep you out of...
I mean, we don't need to deal with the moral issues because they're all clear.
What I'm really trying to keep you out of is a situation...
Where you go in for five years and maybe you stay for six or seven or eight or more...
You come out and your artistic motor has been completely burned out by being stressed and sleep-deprived and screamed at and bullied and fucked up and living with crazy-ass sociopaths for year after year after year, having no control over your own life,
being at the whim of people who are complete assholes and contributing to that which you consider morally evil in the world, that when you come out of that, you will be a broken shell of a man and you will not be able to Do that which you consider to be the most beautiful and the most wonderful thing in the world at the moment, which is to create things of beauty in the world.
That would be the worst thing of all, right?
To kill, to take the money for your dream in a process that killed your dream and you, morally and spiritually.
Yeah. Now, compare that possibility to going and being a waiter for a couple of years, saving up some money, developing your skills, having fun, going out on Saturday nights,
well, maybe not a waiter, maybe it's Tuesday nights, you know, finding some friends, having a good time, developing your skills, and having your own life under your own control, living in a new city, and if you don't like that city, you can just pack up, take a bus, and move to another city Having a roving kind of roaming life entirely under your own control where you're saving up your money and you're investing it and you're learning how to be a better artist.
You're working on creating things that are of artistic value and beauty to you at the time and your life is completely under your own control and you're living this Jack Kerouac on the road kind of life.
Artistic bohemian existence where you are working towards your dream with every day that is under your control.
You are not surrendering yourself to the bloodied up tank tracks of a brutal hierarchy that is going to crush artistic capacity, ambition, and the ability to execute on that vision out of you completely.
Because what I'm offering to you as a possibility gives you the same amount of money, but without the risk.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Without the moral compromise, which is more than a compromise, right?
It's morally destructive to do that which you define as evil, right?
Right. So I'm giving you the same amount of money.
I'm giving you the freedom to set your own terms.
You can study computers at a community college on the side if you want to move up to temp and make more than 12 bucks an hour.
You are getting, through being a waiter, you get actually pretty good negotiation and customer management skills.
And you learn about service and you learn about execution and you learn about consistency and you learn about politeness.
All of these things will be enormously helpful to you in your career.
in the future as a freelance artist or as an artist working for someone as you see fit you may also find that through working somewhere part-time in the field through attending a photography club or a design club or whatever it is that you'll end up doing that you find somebody who's willing to take you on as an apprentice or give you a job and you don't need to go and spend eighty thousand dollars on an education because you'll be learning on the job there's so many possibilities that open up for you when you decide to take your life by its own reins and make the decisions for yourself That there's just no way to predict what will happen.
But the challenge of carving your own path under your own sail will be something that you will be eternally proud of.
of shifting to another kind of brutal family to get what you want is an abdication, I think, that you will regret for the rest of your life.
There's nothing prouder in my life than what I was able to do under my own steam.
I'm not telling you this because somebody handed me a silver spoon.
I was on my own when I was 15.
When there were recessions and there were job problems and there were...
I mean, inflation was crazy.
The interest rates were at 20%.
I mean, it was lunatic.
And it's really hard.
So I'm not telling you this from the standpoint of somebody who's like, well, daddy paid for my education, but boy, you should go and pan for gold, right?
I mean, I've been even in a worse situation than where you are.
And one of the proudest things in my life was my willingness to execute on what it is that I wanted to do and to get there under my own steam.
Now, I mean, education is more subsidized up here in Canada, so I don't want to say that it's exactly the same.
But I did work very hard all the way through school.
I had two jobs. I worked very hard in the summers.
I was just enormously proud of what I was able to do in that kind of situation.
That stayed with me for the rest of my life and nothing has really seemed that daunting ever since.
I was able to lift myself up by my own bootstraps.
So I just want to infuse you with that confidence and that possibility that you can do it for yourself.
You can achieve what you want in life.
You can achieve your goals and your dreams and your desires.
And that the trials and tribulations of doing that for yourself will in fact make you a better artist and a more confident and powerful human being.
if you sell your soul for the sake of money and put yourself under the heel of a brutal, violent and immoral hierarchy you will not be able to lift your head up high I think for many years afterwards
if at all what do you think?
well I'm pretty close to convinced that I don't And look, I'm not expecting, what if we've been on the phone for 43 minutes, right?
I'm not expecting to convince you, and I'm certainly not, I mean, I hope you understand, I'm not trying to lecture you morally.
I mean, I'm not doing that, right?
I'm not trying to say, well, you should go and work in the salt mines of Kessel because the army is evil.
I'm not trying to lecture you morally.
I'm actually trying to give you options that are to be for your direct benefit because I obviously, as you know, I have an artistic side.
I write poetry. I write novels.
I have a strong artistic side as well.
And I was in a situation which was not army but which was boarding school which was completely soul-crushing from that standpoint.
So I know a little bit about brutal hierarchies and I know a little bit about what it takes to work very hard to sustain artistic goals and desires in the face of An economically challenging environment, let's say.
So I'm not trying to lecture you and wag the finger at you morally.
I'm just trying to tell you that what you can see looking forward into the future is not the same as what you will be able to see looking back at the decisions that you've made.
And I just want to make sure that you retain as much control and pride in your own progress.
You know, artists, you know, we're supposed to go through some shit, right?
Yes. And what I mean by that is we're not supposed to just cut our own hands off and say, look, I have problems, right?
We're not supposed to sign up to the military, but we're supposed to struggle to achieve our vision.
And there's actually a really good aspect to that.
Which is that if artists do not want to go through that struggle, then they should be weeded out fairly early, right?
And in a way, by going into the military, you're bypassing that struggle.
I mean, to me, I view it as kind of a cop-out.
It's like, look, I've just come from a family where you say my father was an asshole.
Now I want to surrender myself to another brutal hierarchy.
Because my dad won't give me money, I want some other asshole to give me money.
But I think... I think that we're kept too young too long myself.
I mean, I think at the age of 18 you can start carving your own path.
It's not like you're 12.
And I think that if you throw off the need for other people to take care of you and to give you what you want but instead work to carve out from the world what you want, I think that you will end up a much stronger, more successful, happier, more powerful, more independent and wealthier human being without the shadow of being forcibly reenlisted more independent and wealthier human being without the shadow of being forcibly reenlisted at any point in the future for the next 15 years Right.
But I mean obviously you need to look into the stop loss program.
You need to look into...
Google the stories of the soldiers who've been forced to re-enlist, even if they've been out of the army for years.
It is a complicated and one-sided contract that you're getting into.
It's not a contract at all, because the army can change the rules any time at once.
Right? There's nothing in this contract which is binding.
You can't have a binding contract with people who have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers, right?
Right.
Because there's no way of enforcing that contract.
No civil court's going to do it, right?
You've gone outside the pale of political society and you are in a military tribe, right?
Right.
So, I would say, you know, work out the math.
Figure out how you can do it.
If you're going to postpone for half a decade your education anyway, why not take that half a decade and work under your own steam and develop your own capacities?
I guarantee you, you will have far more chance to develop your own artistic abilities when you're working under your own steam than when you're embedded in a brutal hierarchy where you're working 14, 16, 18 hours a day.
Do you want to take some time to mull it over?
I don't want to keep hammering you with stuff.
I know you can do it, and I know that it's a much better path for you.
And I say that with all the ridiculous presumption of somebody who's only known you off and on on the boards for about a year.
So I'm not often very bossy this way, but I'm just telling you, don't join.
Don't join. You will not get what you want out of life.
In fact, I think you will regret it for the rest of your life.
There are options that can get you what you want, which are under your control, where you're not surrendering yourself to basically being a brutalized child again for another half decade or more.
Yeah.
I'm actually supposed to leave.
I haven't signed any contracts yet, of course, but I'm supposed to leave on the 5th.
I'll think about it as much as possible before I sign any contracts or anything like that.
Will you do me a favor and give me a call before you sign any other contracts?
I will. I'll contact you on the board.
I don't know your phone number or anything.
Yeah, just give me a shout on the board or you can email me through the website at freedomainradio.com.
I mean, obviously, if you're not going to sign, if you're going to say, look, I'm going to go have a great deal of fun being a waiter and studying my art on the side and living in a friendly neighborhood with no bombs, right?
Because you can die over there.
This is not insignificant, right?
And if you say that I'm going to take this vagabond life and enrich my experiences and travel resume as an artist, if you're going to take that route, obviously you can call me and let me know.
But if you're still drawn towards the military option, just give me a call before you sign anything, if you don't mind.
Obviously, it's nothing binding, right?
But if you could, I would appreciate it.
All right. All right.
I will send you a copy of this, of course.
Do you mind if I publish it as a podcast?
Did you record it? I did.
I don't know. Have a listen to it and let me know what you think.
We didn't use your name and we used no identifying characteristics whatsoever.
I mean, I think it's okay, but have a listen to it and let me know what you think.
All right. All right?
All right. Thanks, man.
I'll talk to you soon. Thank you.
Best of luck. Goodbye.
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