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July 24, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:37:01
1112 Career, Passion, Dedication
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Time Text
So, what's up?
Well, I was just thinking about the conversation we had on the chat the other night about...
I'm basically planning out what I was going to do with my career.
Right. What are your thoughts?
Well, before you had asked me, I had thought to myself, you know, for whatever reason, I don't know why, I just thought that getting skills in communication would be a good idea, like going into communications and studying speech or things like that, but I can't really tell you why.
And I was just thinking, okay, I'm not going to try to plan this out Exactly from point A to point B, but I'll just do it, you know, whatever feels right.
But when you started asking me about it, I felt a little nervous, but I noticed that I was like involuntarily shaking for some reason, and I thought that was really weird because it was out of proportion with what I was feeling.
So, I don't know.
I thought that I had it figured out to some extent, but I don't think that I have.
Right, so you were thinking of going back to college for something like communications and doing a degree that way?
Right. And what was that for?
Well, like I said, I mean, it wasn't necessarily for anything other than I wanted that skill set.
Right, right.
Okay, and just for those who are listening, let me know if I cut out.
I'm trying a direct connection to the internet through the router to see if I can deal with this issue, and if I can't, then I'll just switch ISPs, but this is the last thing, so we'll give it a shot.
So, you are, you know, I think the technical term is relatively hosed because you care about something big, right?
Right. Right. And you've wanted to, as we talked about when you were up here, you've wanted something grander out of your life than what most people would call a career.
What most people call a career, as you know, is I'd like to be a doctor, I'd like to be a lawyer, I'd like to be an accountant, I'd like to be a dentist, I'd like to be an academic or whatever.
And what they do is they pursue those things In order to have a job, to have an income, to have a family, and that sort of stuff.
And this is not to say that that is necessarily selfish, of course, because there's nothing wrong with doing those things.
Those things are necessary. But you're not in that category, right?
I mean, you were, but now you're not.
Exactly. So what category would you put yourself in?
Or should I just keep going with categories until one strikes you?
I don't know.
I don't know how I would call it a category.
Sorry.
Well, you have to get into a box.
That's all I'm saying. Everybody must be categorized.
We must get into a box.
I'm just kidding. Okay, so...
And there are people who want to do good with those things, right?
So you have people who get involved in medicine who want to do research and cure cancer.
You get people involved in law who want to do a bunch of good stuff with law and all of those.
It's not like you can't do good and big things with those, but you're not in that category either.
No. And the category that you're in is that you care about philosophy, right?
Right. And you want to spread wisdom and truth and virtue and all that kind of stuff, right?
Absolutely. And if I remember rightly from our meeting, flowers, ponies, and unicorns, is that right?
Oh, sorry, sorry, that was Greg.
So, I mean, that's the challenge, right?
Right. It's like, and the market for that is a challenge as well, right?
I mean, it's hard to find ways to do that that are not statist in origin or paycheck, right?
Right. So, you have a desire to do great things to spread virtue in the world.
And there's no job called that, right?
See, these other things are defined jobs that you can sort of do good within, right?
So you can try to be a lawyer and try and get, I don't know, do pro bono work for people that you feel are unjustly accused or whatever.
And you have a job which you can do good in, right?
Right. But you want a job called doing good, which doesn't have the same kind of economic content, right?
Right. I mean, I had a job in software and I tried to do good within that, and I could do good for the people around me and for my customers as best I could, but I was being paid and I did good within the context of a career.
Right. And the good that I was able to do in that realm, relative to the good that I at least think or hope that I'm able to do now, was practically inconsequential, right?
Yeah. And you, of course, with your engineering or aerospace engineering approach, you would have gotten that degree and you would have done good in your life for customers, co-workers, employees, wherever you ended up.
But it doesn't seem like that's enough for you.
No, no. So you're in a different category, if that makes sense.
I'm sorry if I'm sort of repeating myself, but I just want to make sure that we're on the same page to start, right?
Because it's a challenge. Right.
Yeah, that's definitely how I would put it.
The fact that I know kind of what I want to contribute to the world, but there's no set path for me to do that.
And, well, okay.
Okay. So, you don't have a goal that can be subsumed or contained within a larger and, dare we say, financially functional career, right?
Right. Right.
And that's what I mean when I say technically host.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, what is the ideal that you have in terms of what you want to contribute in the world?
Like on your deathbed, when your head is lolling back and your hair looks like mine, what are you going to want to look back and say, damn, that was great?
I would say it would be spreading the truth to as many people as I could.
And maybe coming up with new and better ways of doing it.
If I could do that, I would be very happy.
Better than what, Colleen?
She's coming up behind.
She's like, hey, she's bringing me cheesecake.
Oh, wait, it's a knife. Okay.
And there are ways that you can do that because the challenge is the mass media, right?
That's the challenging aspect of things.
Right. In other words, the good that I was able to do among sort of friendships and employees and so on was a couple of dozen people, maybe 100, maybe 200 if you include my business career.
Right. Which is, you know, 0.1% of people I can reach in a couple of weeks through FDR, right?
Right. So it's finding a way that you can get involved in a media or a medium that is reproducible so that you can find ways to have a legacy that goes beyond your personal interactions and also stretches forward through time.
Is that right? Right.
Okay. All right.
And that, of course, is a challenge, to say the least, right?
Yeah. Now, there are a couple of things which you can do to begin that kind of process or to aim at that kind of thing.
And the communications does fit into that.
But the question is...
Do you have or could you think of a career that would train you or hone your skills in that kind of area in order to give you the credibility and the muscle, so to speak, to get the medium out there, whatever it would be? And let's just for the moment talk about books because it could be anything, but let's just talk about that.
Like if you were to write a book or whatever, right?
Right.
Well, kind of what I was thinking before was that I was going to start trying kind of what I was thinking before was that I was going to start trying different ways to get into freelance writing is
And then maybe writing articles for newspapers.
I mean, those were just kind of some ideas that I had.
But there's...
The only way I could do that is if it had absolutely nothing to do with philosophy.
Yeah, I mean, that would be opposed by...
I mean, the stuff we talk about here is obviously opposed by most of the media, so that would be a challenge, to say the least, right?
Right. Now, what aspects of philosophy are the most interesting to you?
What do you gravitate towards?
Right. Well, my first thought is ethics.
Go on. Just the way that different ethical systems have been developed and, of course, UPB was like the most thrilling book that I've ever read.
Wait, let me just rewind that.
Okay. Oh yeah.
One more time. Oh yeah. Okay, but say it slowly.
And smoke. No, I'm just kidding.
Go on. Yeah.
To me, I mean, that was just like so profound.
I mean, that to me is the basis of the kind of thing that's going to really change the world.
Well, I certainly hope so and I appreciate your words.
So is it that aspect of philosophy which gets you the most juiced or motivated?
Yes, yes.
Now, is that your private preference for philosophy or your public preference for philosophy?
And what I mean by that is I always try to go from evidence, right?
Now, you and I have had a number of conversations and we've met and so on.
And so I always try to go by what people do.
And so you have an interest in ethics, which was a private thing.
I'm trying to remember...
A time when you have in a call-in show or a Sunday show or a conference call or certainly when you're up for the barbecue, when you have raised a question with regards to ethics or produced an answer or a thought with regards to ethics.
And of course this doesn't mean anything about whether you're interested in it or not.
But if you are interested in it, why do you think that that's not part of your conversation in the community?
The idea of talking about those kinds of things, or raising questions about that kind of thing, I don't know why, but I get kind of nervous about it.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Nervousness is something that we're always taught to sort of overcome.
You know, like to be nervous is bad.
You have to push through it. And of course, I don't believe that.
Nervousness is a form of discomfort that is very important to process, right?
To understand. Right.
So for instance when I was at acting school when I was younger I got progressively more anxious about going on stage and like when I was first there I was a cocky bastard and I would go on and do improv and everything and I got very good feedback about it all but as time went on I got more and more anxious or nervous about going on stage and I didn't feel like I had the spontaneity and the fluidity to do stuff that was interesting and so on.
And of course, in hindsight, it makes perfect sense that my unconscious was sort of heading me in a different path and so it was making me feel more progressively anxious.
About what it is that I was doing.
Of course, at the time, I thought it was insecurity.
But that doesn't make sense because you don't start off secure and become more insecure as time goes forward, particularly when you have success, right?
Right. So your nervousness may be for a good reason, which is that it's not the most productive thing for you to do, possibly.
It's a possibility, that's all.
all i don't i don't know the answer to that okay and so i'll i'll give you a um Sorry, was there anything you...
I mean, we probably wouldn't be able to untangle that now because it probably goes quite deep, but does that sort of make sense or is there anything you wanted to add about that?
Oh, just the question I would have is how could I tell if the nervousness was not like an anticipation anxiety rather than something that was...
Trying to steer me away from that.
Well, let me ask you this.
Do you feel nervous when, other than the sort of normal thing where stuff is personal that's being talked about, do you feel nervous on these kinds of calls?
In terms of the public sharing aspect or the conversations about yourself?
A little bit, yeah.
Right, but not compared to bringing up questions of ethics, right?
Right. And that doesn't mean that, I mean, we shouldn't necessarily always do that, which is...
The most comfortable, but it is important to be aware or to have awareness of that which comes more naturally to us, right?
Okay. And so that's just important empirical information, particularly true when we get into our 20s, right?
And the degree to which we can overcome our natural barriers begins to diminish over time, right?
It's not like someone who's 40 or 50 or whatever is going to be a little bit less likely.
In fact, I think quite a lot less likely to overcome prior fears, which to me is not a bad thing.
It's a good thing, right? Right.
So, where you feel the most comfortable, if I understand it correctly, is talking about more personal issues.
Philosophy has applied to one's personal life, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
And do you think that there's a reason why that is more comfortable or positive for you than the ethics stuff?
Do you mean like a personal reason or a reason why that might be – A reason. A personal reason, not a theoretical reason.
Okay, okay. I don't really know.
Oh dear, you're going to make me say it, aren't you?
Oh, I can feel it. Hang on, let me just get recording number one.
Yes, you do.
Okay, go ahead.
Hang on one second.
Can you hear it?
Oh, sorry.
Let me put it to you another way, right, if this is confusing.
Oh, I'm getting an echo.
Sorry. That's all right.
Oh, hello, Justin.
All right, so here's something...
Oh, still getting an echo. Here, let me just turn it off.
Okay. Is that better?
Sorry about that. Yeah, that's fine.
If you have a switch on your mic, if you're doing speakers, you just have to turn it off when I talk.
But anyway, so this is sort of what I remember from...
The weekend that you and Rich wrap is that the time where I felt that you were the most engaged was when we were talking to Josia.
Okay. Does that ring a bell with you at all?
Yeah. Go on.
I feel like a dentist at the moment.
Give me the players, I will get the words.
Well, I mean, that's...
That's the aspect of the weekend to me that had the most sort of...
Practical significance, if that makes sense.
It's like, you know, we were actually actively helping her through some of her mythologies.
Right, right.
And so when there was live or more immediate work that was going on, that was something that got you more engaged than most.
Right. If only that told us something.
Gosh. I don't know why I'm having so much trouble with this.
Yes, you do. And that's fine.
Look, this is why we're having the call, right?
Because it isn't an easy thing.
I mean, if it was an easy thing, you wouldn't need anybody yelling at you and blabbing on about it, right?
So, there's no problem.
I think I have an idea, but it doesn't particularly matter because the important thing is what gets you most motivated for this kind of stuff.
When it comes to the podcasts, when one comes out that is about economics on a 1 to 10, what is your level of interest?
I'd say a 7.
All right. And what about one that is about ethics?
Probably an 8 or a 9.
All right.
And the Sunday call-in shows?
Maybe six.
Six.
Right. Okay. And is there anyone on this call who drives down the score that much?
Just kidding. Okay.
And what about one that comes out when I'm talking to somebody about personal issues?
It would depend on what that is about, but in general...
In general, I'd say it's up there like a nine.
So, in a sense, it's competing with ethics, and it's something that you feel more comfortable talking about in general, right?
Right. Okay.
And how are you feeling just now?
Um... A little tense?
Yeah, yeah, tense.
Okay, let's talk about that, because you sound tense.
I'm just having a lot of trouble keeping my thoughts straight.
Like, I just... I'm having like physical symptoms of nervousness, but I'm not feeling nervous actively.
Do you mean like one of your hands is trying to strangle you and the other one is fighting it back?
Because that happened. Is that what you mean?
Yeah, something like that.
Okay. Well, turn one into a cobra and one into a mongoose.
Damn, I wish we had that video camera running.
What are the physical symptoms of nervousness that you're feeling at the moment?
Like a little bit of shaking.
Is that in your hands or elsewhere?
Yeah, mostly my hands.
And if your hands could speak, right?
You might want to make that little, you know, where your thumb becomes the lower jaw and so on.
If your hands could speak, what would they say?
I don't know.
Okay. Well, let me put it this way then.
Is it a bad feeling, do you think, that's in your hands?
Because this kind of nervousness, it can be excitement, it can be fear, it could be a lot of different things.
It could be imminent danger or imminent possibility of change and growth, and both of those things would result in nervousness.
Do you have a sense of which way it would go?
I would say it's positive.
Positive, okay, right, right, okay.
And when you look at your own history of when you would feel excited or positive about things with regards to your family, how would that go?
Well, from my mom's end, she would ask me about something like – Like, for instance, how my day went, and if I was particularly excited about something, which wasn't that often, she would sort of, like, give the impression that she had tuned out completely.
And I say give the impression because, I mean, I feel like it was an active thing.
Sorry, I missed all of that. Could you repeat it?
I'm just kidding. Okay. Why do you say that you weren't...
Now, when you say you weren't excited that often, do you mean you didn't communicate it or you didn't feel it at all?
Well, I mean, I'm just remembering things from when I was like an adolescent.
And by then, I would say not excited about things as much.
So you didn't feel the excitement or express it, except rarely, is that right?
Right. Yeah, actually I would say I felt it more than I expressed it.
Okay, so your mother would, there would be this indifference that you felt was more faint than real, is that right?
Right, like she, like it was an intentional display of indifference.
Right.
Okay.
And what was she attempting to communicate through that process to you?
And I'm sure successfully.
That whatever I was excited about wasn't, didn't warrant that reaction from me and that I was interested in probably didn't warrant that reaction from me and that I was interested in probably like stupid things and Thank you.
Right, okay. So your interests would be petty or immaterial or immature or what are the adjectives that she would use in that situation if she were to not be able to do it passively but actively?
God, it's so hard to say because on the one hand, if I would say to her, like, if I would express that I was, you know, kind of upset that she had done that, she would act stupid and she would say, well, you're just interested in things that are way over my head and that kind of thing.
Right. Okay, so she felt that she couldn't follow the things that you were interested in?
That's what she would say. Right, okay.
And was that true? I don't think so.
Sorry, go ahead.
I mean, I think she played dumb a lot.
Okay, and why did she play dumb?
So that I couldn't get angry at her.
No, but why did she play dumb before you came along?
Because you didn't invent this habit in her, right?
Right. Um...
Do you mean why did she invent it, like, when she was, you know, a child or something, or what?
Well, I would say more in particular, how did the strategy work in the marriage?
in the marriage okay um well it just like it it just made her blameless for things and And... She could sort of feign helplessness and ignorance and...
She would frustrate my dad into just doing everything for her.
Okay. What would have happened in the marriage, do you think, if...
I'm going to assume, since obviously you're very intelligent, I'm going to assume that you didn't exactly come from parents who was a bag of two rocks.
Right. So let's assume that your mother is very intelligent, right?
Right. Brilliant, let's say.
What would have happened if she had exercised that?
Because the things that you're talking about is the secondary gains that she got, right?
Right. So she got your dad to do stuff for her and so on.
But, I mean, if you're really intelligent, if you're a brilliant person, you kind of don't need to manipulate other people into doing stuff for you.
Right. Except donating, but we'll come back to that later.
So, you're talking about the secondary gains, but what would be the primary cost of her exercising her intelligence to its fullest with regards to your father?
How would he react to that?
Sorry, so what would have happened in the marriage with your father if your mother had exercised her full intelligence?
Um... The thought I get is he would have felt threatened.
Like, his status in the family would be threatened by that.
And... There would have been a lot more fighting.
I mean, I really get the sense, like, when my dad's position as, like, the smartest guy in the room is threatened...
Then he gets enraged sometimes.
Okay, so there's a certain touchy intellectual vanity, is that right?
Yes. Right, okay.
So, what would have happened to the marriage if she had exercised her full intelligence?
I think it would have collapsed.
So they would have broken up, is that right?
Right. Alright, okay.
So you have a template.
Because here's the thing.
I find that one-on-one, you're absolutely brilliant, right?
But in a group, you seem to be highly involved in counting your toes, right?
No, I listen to everybody.
I just don't say anything.
Well, that's what they seem to, right?
I mean, from the outside, right?
Right, right, right.
And... This is not uncommon, right?
I mean, particularly with women.
Right. I mean, female intelligence can be threatening to men, right?
Yeah. And do you feel, or do you think, I'm sorry, all these leading questions, but I know that this is stressful for you.
Do you think that you have inherited any of the hide-your-brains aspect of Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Do you think you're doing it now?
Um.
Yes, I, uh.
Um.
When I think about that, when I think about maybe that I'm holding things back, I just think, like the next, the very next thought is always like, well, I actually don't have anything else to contribute.
And it's just, it's really frustrating.
Sure. And you know why you have that thought, right?
The reason that you have a thought called you have nothing to contribute, do you know why you have that thought?
To avoid contributing?
Yeah, it's because you know that you have something to contribute.
Right. I don't look at a performance of The Nutcracker and feel a yearning to jump up on stage but then say to myself, oh, I'm not really that good a ballet dancer.
I probably wouldn't have anything to contribute, right?
Right, right. On the other hand, in a rock concert, no...
Right? But I don't go through that experience, right?
Right. Because I have less than nothing to offer when it comes to ballet.
I would only fall on the girls, crush them, and cause the audience to flee, right?
Right. Not that I don't look great in a tutu.
Anyway, we'll come back to that another time.
But it's because you have a great deal of desire and a great deal of capacity to contribute, right?
Right. Right.
Now, there is a theory which I think has some validity.
I think it comes from Jung.
And it is this, that nothing, nothing has a greater psychological impact on us than the unlived lives of our parents.
Yeah, I've heard that.
And when I mean psychological impact, what I mean is unconscious, right?
Right. Your mother stifled her intelligence because she was intelligent, right?
Right. I mean, to put it in a context that we can all understand, the comments that I get on YouTube are not from people stifling their intelligence, right?
Right. Because they're really not very intelligent, right?
Right. Whereas if somebody stifles their intelligence, it's because they have a great ability and capacity to exercise that intelligence, right?
Yes. What was your mother's relationship to the idea of feminism or equality or respect for women or the fact that women are equal to and in some cases superior to men and so on?
- Really strange.
She wouldn't have talked about it in those kind of terms.
She kind of sneered at the idea of feminism, but within the marriage, she had this kind of ridiculous she had this kind of ridiculous thing where she was Oh, you know, I don't let my husband order me around.
She would portray herself as having this really independent position in the marriage, which she just did not.
It was kind of weird.
Go on.
It just...
I don't know.
Go on.
I don't know what else to say.
Okay.
Alright. Did your father ever express frustration that your mother was underutilizing herself mentally?
Oh. Not at that idea in general, but at different things that she would do, he would...
He would definitely be frustrated that she couldn't do certain things or wouldn't do certain things.
Such as what? Like the ability to manage the household while he was away and the ability to learn different things on the computer and just stuff like that.
And so, because if you have a big intellect, You can't have a neutral relationship to things like that.
I mean, if you have a big intellect...
I mean, sorry.
If you're not very bright, then you can be...
You can do things like housework, right?
Right. But if you are very bright, you can't have a neutral relationship to things which are below your capacities.
You can't ever hit them directly.
Right. It's like you can aim high, you can aim low.
You can't aim in the middle, right?
Right. So she probably performed under par on simple tasks, right?
Right. Yeah.
When it came to anything homemaking, she was above and beyond.
But when it came to anything technical whatsoever, she vastly underperformed.
Sorry, I thought you said that your father said with household management she had some issues.
Well, not housework, but different kinds of like managing who was supposed to go where and what to do with different financial things and that sort of thing.
So you mean, did your father...
I'm sorry to spend so much time on this, but I just want to get a map of your template.
Did your mother manage the finances of the household, or did your father?
She mostly managed the finances, although he would contribute different things, and whenever he couldn't do his part of it, then she would lose it.
What do you mean?
Or she would just...
She would act completely incapable of figuring out how to work without his part of the contribution.
Thank you.
Could you tell me a bit more about that?
She had almost tantrums, I would say.
Like... Oh, like when you were up here, we didn't have the right marinara sauce for you?
Yeah, it was just really out of proportion emotional reaction, like she'd be, you know, holding her head and whining and all of this kind of stuff.
Right. And what do you think her real complaint was in that situation?
Um... I know that I know it, but I just...
I would say...
probably more towards yourself.
Right. Let me ask this an odd question, but one I think is worthwhile.
If your mother were your child, and what I mean by that is, if you have a child in, I don't know, five years, whatever, if you have a child in a while, and the person that you gave birth to was, in fact, your mother as a baby, right?
Right. And she had you as a mother, what would she become?
Right. Strong and self-sufficient?
Go on. What?
What's funny? Go on.
Why is that funny? Let me just strong and self-sufficient.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
I don't mean to laugh. I know it's tough for you, but when you hear this recorded back, you'll know why I'm laughing.
Sorry, go on. Okay, um...
Well...
Why is this so hard?
She'd be the opposite of what she was.
was I don't know how else to say it okay so what she was was underutilized So she would be utilized.
Overutilized is not the opposite, of course, of underutilized, just like speeding is not the opposite of slowing.
But going the correct speed, she would be – all of the intelligence that she had would be exercised, right?
Right. And she would have self-esteem.
Right. And who would she marry if she had been your daughter or if she were to be your daughter?
Somebody who appreciated her intelligence and her abilities and kind of expected her to be at par with that in the relationship.
Right. And somebody who would be gentle with her when she had challenges that blocked her, right?
And wouldn't just try and kick her through the doorway, so to speak, with irritation.
Right. Okay.
And do you think that she would have the capacity to do something big and wonderful in the world?
world or do you think she would be more focused on something more specific?
I don't know.
Yeah, I'd say she'd have...
I can wait for you to know. - I'd say she'd have that capacity to do something.
So you feel that her influence could be larger and more widespread if you had raised her rather than her grandmother?
Right. Now, if you, God help you, Rich, if, and this is no indication of anything, but if you were to marry someone like your father, where the exercise of your intelligence was a threat, what would it happen to you?
Oh, sorry, what would happen to you in the long run?
I would have ended up like my mom.
In some ways.
Right. Frustrated, a little depressed, a little hysterical, a little unbalanced, right?
right?
Is that right?
Right, right.
And it would have pulled down your sense of yourself and your sense of your own power and security, right?
Right. I mean, there is a tragedy in all of our parents' lives, however they have hurt us, right?
Yeah. And the tragedy, of course, is the Simon the Boxer thing.
It's going for the security of the known rather than the danger and excitement of the unknown, right?
Right. And the costs that accrue to a human being over the course of a life doing that are hellish, right?
Right. Okay.
So this is your template, right?
So when you...
Want to expand your power and your influence and your authority and your intelligence, you run into a bump, right?
Or more than a bump, you run into a wall.
Right. What are you feeling?
Oh, just suddenly really sad.
I got that, but sorry, go on.
what are you feeling um just I don't know I'm sorry. I'm so retarded right now.
Okay. Alright.
Go on.
Um... Okay, now I'm just feeling frustrated.
Okay, but that's fine. Go back to the sadness.
Do you think it's your sadness or your mom's sadness?
Um... It's...
Okay, let me ask you this.
What does your mom feel deep down about her life?
Sad. I wonder if that's...
Hang on, you felt sadness.
Your mom feels...
No, that's too easy.
That's too easy. It doesn't feel right.
It's got to be something to do with a squirrel.
I can feel it. A flying squirrel in Australia.
Right. Yeah, probably definitely my mom's sadness.
Because your mom is getting older and the opportunities for her to turn her life around are pretty much gone, right?
Right. I mean, the odds of it happening short of being hit by lightning and having something really scrambled in her head are practically zero, right?
Right. And she's probably got another 20 or 30 years to live, right?
Yeah. In a tomb called your father.
Right.
What did you feel there?
God.
God.
It's just, I mean, it's just kind of out of nowhere.
Um... I've...
I've never really thought about this kind of thing before.
Well, you have, you're just not conscious of it, right?
Because the feelings are all there. Yeah, exactly.
And that was a wonderful description of what you had or hadn't thought about, but what did you feel when I said, in the tomb of your father?
Like, um...
Just this, like, unbearable sadness.
Like, anguish. Yes.
I got goosebumps on the back of my neck, and I felt a very strong...
And very dark despair.
Yeah.
And I can tell you what that's for, why you have that feeling if you like, or you can talk more about that feeling.
Right now it would probably be better if you were just to discuss it.
Well, the only phrase that comes to mind is, I don't know.
Oh, no, I'm kidding.
Look, Colleen, your mother is communicating her despair to you for what end?
It can't be any sort of positive reason.
I mean...
It can be.
How? What is the value of feeling your mother's despair?
That I won't, you know, do what she did.
Right. Our false selves are inescapable, and your mother's, sorry, our true selves are inescapable, and your mother's true self is communicating something to you that maybe even she doesn't feel consciously, right? Right.
And what is your mother's true self trying to get you to understand through these feelings?
Right. That it's a terrible existence to hold back what you have to offer.
Right. And you feel that sometimes too, a little, right?
Yeah, definitely.
That it is a terrible existence to withhold from the world what you have to offer.
Right. Right.
Our parents are telling us everything that we need to do to live better lives, right?
They just don't tell it to us directly, right?
Right. You can't fake happiness.
You can't fake gentleness.
You can't fake curiosity.
You can't fake virtue.
You can't fake intimacy.
And they have none of those things.
And they expound their philosophies to us, and their unconscious and their true selves communicate to us, these are the consequences of what I am saying.
Right? Right.
This is where the roadmap I'm giving you leads, right?
Right. And your mother said...
Suppress your potential.
I know she didn't say that every day or consciously, but that's what she was...
I reject your potential, is what she said, right?
Right. And that's what she said verbally, and her life is the destination of that philosophy, and the despair that she has communicated to you consistently throughout the years is her way of saying, what I'm saying, do the opposite.
Right? Exactly.
It's like somebody saying, the body betrays always the truth.
The body betrays the truth always.
The smoker can say to you, who's been chain-smoking for 30 years, it clears up the lungs, right?
But then he climbs a flight of stairs and he coughs half of one out, right?
Right. People can say whatever they want.
It's the body, it's the true self, it's the feelings, it's the unconscious that always communicates the truth.
The truth is inescapable.
Yeah. And I would imagine that in some ways, the hand trembling that you feel so disconnected from, it's your mother's hope for you to live a different life.
I don't know, it just seems like...
I can't...
I'm just feeling very cynical about that whole idea that she would have any hope for me to have a better life.
Oh, I'm not saying it's at all conscious for her, and I'm not saying that this is any kind of plan that she has in her mind.
Right, right. I understand.
It doesn't matter, right?
Right. She is clearly communicating that she is unhappy with her philosophy, right?
Right. I mean, she's not happy, right?
Right. So that's the clearness, right?
That's the clarity that she is communicating.
Right. I mean, and who among us has not had a parent who tells us one thing and shows the horrifying results with their life?
Yeah.
And tell me what you're feeling.
I'm just so overwhelmed by this.
It just strikes me as such a huge tragedy.
Yeah, it is. It is.
And it's not just your mom, obviously.
Think of the billions of souls all over the world who are compressed like suns into white dwarfs cold in space.
The amount of human potential that is crushed and destroyed by culture, by habit, by history.
It's a universal tragedy.
It is an absolutely universal disaster.
Yeah. But, sorry, go on.
I can't really put it a different way.
Yeah. I mean, and I think I'm still really terrified of repeating that.
Yes, well this is the danger, right?
Right. If you have high potential, that's why I said you're doomed, right?
If you have high potential and grandeur within you, you don't have a choice.
You can't live small. You can't.
You can't even live middling. Right.
Tragedy or power is the only option.
It's binary. Yeah.
And that's terrifying.
And your mother took tragedy, right?
Right. And she is clearly communicating to you the consequences of that, right?
If you just feel her sadness, her despair.
Yeah. And size and power is threatening to others, right? Right.
Right. They don't feel small as long as they're around small people, right?
Right. I'm not in prison as long as everyone's in prison, right?
Absolutely. And they'll attack you for it.
Hell yeah. Your mother's not a coward.
Because once we feel the risks and the dangers of what faced them and we feel the fear and the rage of the world at people of size and depth and strength and grandeur, Then we understand why they fell.
Right. Even we, with all of our resources, even we with all of our community, even we with all of our knowledge, find it a near impossible chasm to jump, right? Right.
Sorry, if you could just move your mic back a little.
That's not me. Oh, it's not?
Okay, sorry. Somebody else who's joined, could you mute, please?
I think it's opine. Okay.
So, the fear that you feel is the fear that your mother avoided, right?
And when you see the size of the fear, you can understand the depth of the avoidance, right?
Right. We are only defood, finally, we are only defood when we overcome that which our parents did not.
Not seeing them is fine.
Not being them is the goal, right?
Right. And you know that, right?
Absolutely. That you'll never be free of history until you face down this fear and act despite fear.
We can't act without fear.
We're not robots.
Right.
I'm happy to hear what you're thinking and feeling, but I have one final perspective that I think will be something good to chew on.
Okay. Which would you like?
No, go on. Okay.
I can tell you what helped me, Colleen, and you can then mull it over and see if it's a useful perspective to you.
Now, I say this with all sensitivity about...
The recent conversation where Ash pointed out that I was pushing people to contribute to the world before they went through the phase of acting for themselves, right?
Right. So, I have processed that.
I haven't forgotten it. And I'm going to say this anyway.
Because maybe it's not useful to you now.
maybe it's useful to you down the road.
If you have this size and power within you, I believe you do, but that's just my perspective, I think everybody in this conversation does.
Everybody. If you have this size and power, this magnificence and this grandeur within you, the question is not what you want.
Because that's too small a yardstick.
Because the you that will make that decision is the you that doesn't get how grand you are.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
The question is, what does the world want you to do?
Thank you.
What does everybody else's unconscious, their true self, their potential, What does that immense crowd of people want you to do?
It is only in the size of the service to the world that we can have, it is only through that that we can have a reasonable yardstick for what we should do with our lives, if we have that power of grandeur within us.
Right. I thought I wanted to be a software executive.
I really did. But that was too small a yardstick.
Because that was just about my desires for myself.
And I said to myself, well, I will do good along the way.
Right. But that's not what I finally got, and this was through therapy and particularly after therapy, was...
And then I thought, okay, well, I'll be a writer, an artist, write novels.
But again, that was mostly for me, like acting, like academia, like business.
That was all just for me.
And... It didn't show up on the yardstick as anything other than a little line at the bottom, right?
Right.
Now, when I said, what lever does the world want me to pull?
What does the future want me to do?
What does the world, much though it may hate what I'm doing, what does the world really want me to do?
Does it want me to write another article about the Fed?
No. Does it want me to start another company?
Does it want me to write a novel?
No. The world wants to, and this is all grandiose and ridiculous and I'm aware of that, but the world wants me to heal it.
And it's a huge task, it's a ridiculous task, but it turns out that the world was not entirely wrong.
And that is something that has drawn whatever greatness I can put out into the world.
It is that perspective which has drawn the greatness out into me.
To be of service to the world, to be of service to the future, to be of service to To freedom, as I was saying to Greg in a conversation the other day, let's say that through our strenuous, exciting, and incredibly fulfilling efforts, and terrifying efforts, we can cut democide, the murder of citizens by governments, by 10%.
10% in a generation or two.
I think we'll do better than that, but let's just say, that's all we get to do.
That's 30 million people a century.
We say, well, I could write a novel, I could start a company, or I could strive to save 30 million people.
I think we'll do better, but let's say it's only that.
Let's say it's only 1%.
That's 3 million people.
I mean, these are the stakes that we're playing with, right?
Right. Let's say that through, I just did a, just a, for me at least, it was a harrowing video that I did today on child abuse as the root of culture, and let's say that through these efforts, 1% fewer children get abused.
That's millions. Millions!
Now, it's not like that video's gonna do it, but it sparks discussion, it sparks other people doing stuff, you know, just as I received info, I passed it.
Long part of that chain, right?
Right. When you start looking at those kinds of numbers, those kinds of statistics, my fears about being great don't mean much, right?
Right.
If you have a cure for cancer, you're not going to say, "I don't want to do the press conference because I'm afraid of public speaking," right?
Humanity will have to live without my cure for cancer because I get nervous when lights are shone on me, right?
Right. Your own personal fears and your own personal reservations and your own personal smallness, which we've inherited, The rulers don't like us powerful.
They don't like us large. Everything that we've inherited that inhibits us from expressing our power compared to the goal is nothing.
Right? Right.
I was nervous to speak to this reporter.
What do I know, right?
But I do it.
Because maybe 100,000 people will read the article.
Maybe 10,000 or 5,000 will come to the website.
Maybe 100 fewer children might get abused.
Maybe 100 more people will get excited about philosophy.
Maybe 1,000. I don't know. Maybe it's 1%.
And those people will talk to other people, and those people will raise their children differently.
So when I look at all of that and I say, well, I'm nervous to talk to this woman, I'm like, I'm going to feel nervous and I'm going to do it, right?
Because when you see what's on the other side of yourself, of your fears, of your history, of your littleness, and you see what the world wants you to do, I think of those hundred kids.
Or one kid. Let's say it's only one kid.
What does he want me to do?
He wants me to talk to the reporter, right?
Talk to the reporter so my parents read this article, right?
Right. The people who in the future would lie and rot in graves who instead play in the sun because of what we're doing here, what do they want us to do?
Do they want us to say, "I'm nervous, I'm not going to speak up"? I'm not going to speak up"?
They want us to speak up, right?
Right.
It's life and death to them, right?
Right?
It's literally life and death.
And through the difficulties, and I don't want to either overstate or understate the difficulties, but through and I don't want to either overstate or understate the difficulties, but through the difficulties of this conversation, and if we focus on only our own feelings without remembering the scope and sweep of what we're doing
we will always fall by the wayside.
We will always be overwhelmed by our inhibitions, right?
Because there's not enough of a hook to drag us over those mountains.
Right?
Right.
And I say this with true respect for what you suffered as a child, Colleen.
But if there is anything that you can do to make your mother's suffering worthwhile, it is to overcome it, is it not?
Right. If there's anything that you can do to make your mother's inhibitions worth something...
To make your mother's wasted and diminished life worth something.
It is to overcome yourself.
The self that we know of that can't see or is afraid to look at the scope of what we can do, right?
Right. That wants to stay small.
that wants to be a mouse at the feet of dinosaurs.
The real despair that you will experience, that everybody will experience, that I experienced, is if we do not reverse is if we do not reverse the despair that we have inherited, then it wins.
And the future stays abusive, and the future stays destructive, and we have wars, and we have prisons, and we have religions, and we have governments, and we have abuse.
If we don't will back this tsunami of despair, of history, that keeps us spinning around in a little barrel of blood over and over again.
And if we don't see the horde of people, the crowds of people, whose lives we can positively affect in the future, well then we'll stay small, right?
Because the stakes are nothing.
Why would people become big if we don't see the effect that it's going to have in the future on people?
Well, we'll just stay small, right?
Right. Like our parents did.
Like we were taught to.
like good livestock right but enough of me what do you think of this I just can't tell you how moving it was.
Sure you can.
Don't give me another I don't know.
I mean...
I just...
I felt... I felt a calm sort of determination when you were talking and...
It just...
It just felt like so much clarity in the middle of a question that's been, you know, kind of torturing me.
And not just you.
This is not uncommon at all.
Right.
And so if you say, gosh, you know, I just I love to speak about ideas and ethics.
I will become a teacher at a college, at a university where I become a professor, whatever.
I'm not suggesting that's what you do, but let's say that that's what you land on.
You'll be like, well, that's going to be tough.
That's going to be tough.
I have lots of people who are going to be skeptical, lots of people who won't take me seriously.
Right.
And if it's just your desire, you will not make it, right?
Right. If it's just you climbing Everest, you'll be like, okay, I'm sure it's a nice view from the top, but I bet you there's a YouTube video that does it, right?
Right. Right. But if your child is lost and hungry somewhere up the mountain, you're going, right?
Absolutely. And that's what I mean about stakes, right?
If the stakes are, I'd like to be a professor, maybe I could do some good, but, you know, that would be tough to do.
It would be really expensive going to debt, whatever, right?
Then it'd be like, well, there's no baby up the mountain, so you're not going to climb, right?
Right. But if there are millions of lives to affect in the future through what it is that you're doing, well, that's a pretty powerful grappling hook, right?
What do they want you to do?
What do the people whose lives we're going to totally change, what do they want you to do?
And that's a love of the world, and that's a love of the future, and that's real compassion and confidence in our ability to change the world.
And maybe none of it will happen.
We can't guarantee any of that.
Maybe none of it will happen. But I don't care about that.
Because if it doesn't happen, if I don't find the child up the mountain, it won't be because I stopped looking.
Right. It won't be because I gave up.
It won't be because I put my head down and was beaten.
it won't be because I gave in and maybe all we can do is inspire the next generation Well, you are the next generation, but maybe that's all we can do.
And so what? Someone's got to do it and somebody's got to build this bridge.
And if evil does triumph in the world and reason fades, the only thing that we live with is the satisfaction of having given it our all.
Well... Or if we find the child on the mountain, the child is dead.
At least we get closure, right?
And we don't sit there saying, gosh, if I'd only gone over the next hill or the next bluff around that next glacier.
And we can mourn and we can grieve and we can get closure and we can stop fighting.
But that's not how it's going to be.
But even if it were, we would at least have that, right?
So that's the only perspective that I wanted to offer you, which is if you think about what you want to do when in fact you are a mere reason puppet from the future, you won't be able to generate a goal.
because the goal is too small for your soul, right?
Right. We need goals...
Appropriate to the power that we have.
Appropriate to the capacities that we have.
Appropriate to the passions and the convictions that we have.
And we don't know the size of those, so why not have a big goal and adjust downwards if we don't reach it?
Rather than say, what do I want?
My ego. My preference.
Won't matter. That's like trying to get behind an aircraft carrier and making it move by giving a good strong scissor kick.
We need nuclear engines.
Because anybody who's here in this conversation for long enough has that.
You don't get to podcast 11, 12, 1,112...
Because you want to live small.
Because you don't know the capacities for healing and communication that you have.
And that's what puts our fears smaller.
Our fears have to vanish based on the size of our goal.
We can't overcome them without a goal to get us over them, if that makes sense.
Right. Right. And it's no more than what we would have wanted from the people in the past.
Wouldn't it have been great if the founding fathers had given up on the idea of a government, had been honest, had had integrity?
Wouldn't it have been great if Ayn Rand had done that?
Solved us. This weight, this problem.
Wouldn't it have been great if the dais put the goddamn stake through the heart of God?
So that we didn't have to fight all this bullshit.
It's what we wanted from the people in the past.
They didn't do it. So we can only pay it forward.
Or we can fail as well.
And we can back down as well.
and then people in the future will have an even harder job.
And that's why I said at the beginning of the call, you're doomed.
Right? Doom, doom, doom, doom.
We don't pick this fate. It just is, right?
Right. They all sit there, aren't they?
In the platonic pre-womb state saying, eeny, meeny, miny, moe, I want to sail.
I want a soul as big as an ice floe, right?
I mean...
Right.
But it is what it is, right?
We work with the clay we've given, right?
Ours happens to be gelignite, right?
Right. And I suspect that your mother had this power and this potential as well.
And she married your father in order to entomb it.
And it tortured her, right?
Yeah. And it's torturing you.
Right. I just...
I mean...
A growing part of me is just so sick of history.
Right. Right.
Right. Go on. Like, it's just...
getting to the point where I just...
I can't stand it anymore.
Like, I can't...
stand the way that I am sometimes.
Right. Right, right, right, right.
And that's because your goals are too small.
Right. I think this is what I need to get me past that.
Yeah. How can I best serve the future?
How can I best save lives?
How can I best heal the world?
What does the world want me to do? What does the future want me to do?
Right. It just seems like it's going to take a long time to figure that out.
Well, but you see, you think that you're going to figure it out, right?
Like your ego that you know of at the moment is going to figure this out, right?
Right, but that's not the case.
No, it's not the case.
Nice try. But that's what you have been trying to do, is figure it out, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
But it's not something for you to figure out.
I mean, this is ridiculous, but it's true, right?
It's not something for you to figure out.
Right. It's more of an insight that's given...
It'll come to you. Right?
All you have to do is keep focusing on the size of the goal.
How is it that your life could be maximum meaningful?
How can you get universities named after you?
How can you... Not for your ego, right?
But to have that kind of effect.
How can you have people a hundred years from now or a thousand years from now put flowers on your fucking tomb?
Right. Because they're so grateful for what you did.
And not for your ego, and not for your self-satisfaction, but for them.
Right. And with that kind of perspective, we don't run up against our fears like a wall we cannot surmount.
We barely trip over them in passing.
Right. And the way that your skills and abilities and talents, the way that those amazing capacities that you have, Colleen, can best serve the future is not something that you can reason out.
Because all you know right now is that nothing that you can think of strikes you as satisfying, right?
Right. Which means that everything your ego comes up with is wrong.
Right. So this is an ecosystem challenge, right?
Oh, yeah. And they'll do it, right?
They'll do it. You just get out of their way, and they will tell you.
Right. This is why religion is so powerful.
Religion says, what does God want me to do?
Now there's no God, but it works, right?
Right. And that is a life that we can slip off into the dark with,
with or from with a smile on her face.
That is a life that makes it worthwhile winking into existence and winking out of existence.
Right.
And isn't that what we all want?
Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh.
Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh.
And that's the only way that I know how to surmount history.
Who we are as an ego is an accumulation of our experiences that we've had consciously, that we can remember.
And that has almost nothing to do with the potential that we have in our whole being, right?
Right. The accumulated wisdoms and impulses and depth...
Of two billion years of genetic evolution, our conscious mind, our conscious experiences are a total top of the snowflake, tip of the iceberg that goes down for a thousand miles, right?
Right. And that is that depth and profundity that is the immovable object that the world will eventually rotate around.
But we have to have that depth.
And we have to have that depth.
We can only get that depth through the size of the goals.
Yes.
As our ego shrinks relative to our goals, so too do our fears and inhibitions.
If we stay in our ego, the fears and inhibitions, which is everybody else not wanting to do it, right?
Because we don't just have inhibitions because we wake up and say, I want to be small.
We are small, as Rich was talking about when he's at work, we are small because other people are also terrified of this depth.
Right. So, it is their little egos that are afraid of this depth, and if we listen to their little egos, then we too shall become or remain afraid of this depth.
Right? Right.
And if we don't think of the people beyond the horizon, the people in the next generation, of the future of the world, and the people across the world who can be helped by us now, Then we fall before the little selves, the false selves of everyone around us.
Because we're not throwing the grappling hook in the future to hook onto the true selves of the people that we can help and save in the future.
Which blow apart, blow away the people around us who want us to stay small.
Right. And it doesn't make it effortless and it doesn't make it stress-free, God knows.
but it puts those stresses and those fears into perspective.
And all we will get, not all we will get, a lot of what we will get is spite and scorn and cynicism from the people around us.
and it is the people in the future who will understand what we did right and how do you feel now
I would say, like I would say, much better.
I have a lot more clarity and...
I'm feeling, I guess, more strength.
And... But that I have a lot to sit with.
Yeah. No, it is a real challenge, this part, where we just have to wait for our greatness, like we're summoning a whale.
We just have to wait for our greatness to broach, right?
Right. Because we want to do it.
We want to make it happen, but it can't work that way.
I know there are a lot of other people on the call, sorry, and I know that some people were affected by what it is that I was saying.
If anybody wanted to add anything at the end of the call, I would certainly be happy to To hear it.
I have a slight question, Seth, if you don't mind?
Sure. You were mentioning about, you know, how setting, well, waiting for your sort of big goals to come to you, right?
But that doesn't mean, obviously, that you can't do little things in the meantime, sort of design to make you happy, no?
Oh, yeah, no, of course, of course.
I mean, because if you're not happy with the big goals, a life of self-sacrifice and misery for the sake of the happiness of people we'll never meet is not an inspiring example, right?
Right. Good Lord, no.
Yeah, no, we absolutely should do the things, and this, as I said at the beginning before I was going into this aspect of this conversation, the...
The selfish phase, which I don't wish to denigrate at all, is something that I mentioned I wasn't going to have as part of this conversation.
But yes, you should absolutely do things for yourself that make you happy.
But the problem is, I think what Colleen is facing is that the things that she's thinking of for herself are no longer making her happy.
Is that right? Right.
There's a dissatisfaction with all of the plans that we have that we're generating just from our own selves, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I know it.
Not that I'm much past it, but I know that having been there very, very recently myself.
Definitely. Right.
I mean, you will go and climb your mountains.
This is not a metaphor.
You will go and climb your mountains, and at some point, the satisfaction of climbing your mountains will diminish.
Right. And then I'll know what to do then.
Well, you may go through a period of not knowing, but the way that I would suggest that you focus on what to do next is what can be the biggest thing to help the world.
That I will take pleasure in, right?
Sure. And for me, obviously, it was sandwiching a few stupendously wonderful musical podcasts with all this other filler, so everybody has their own particular approaches, and that was mine.
Just writing all those novels you made me read.
Right, right. Does that make sense?
I'm certainly, look, this is not self-sacrifice at all.
I'm saying this because the size of the goal makes you happy.
Right, I absolutely agree and understand, and I can just tell you that, you know, like I said in the chat room, this was exactly what I needed to hear.
I'm just, I'm ecstatic just listening to it.
So, thank you. Well, I mean, this speech was something – I wasn't planning on doing it in this conversation, but it came out.
But this speech is brewing because people have reached a crescendo, I believe, and are falling back in terms of happiness within the community.
That's sort of been my experience as of late, that the initial thrill of philosophy and the absorption of philosophy and psychology into our personal lives has hit a peak and is beginning to diminish.
And that, to me, is a good indication of a time to introduce something new.
And that's sort of what it was about today.
Well, is there anyone else who wanted to add or ask anything before we close it down?
Steph, I just wanted to say I took Carl here.
I took my summer vacation this year.
It sort of began as I'll just do whatever I want, very selfish as it were, but also thinking, well, I want to improve my relationships and I'm also hoping that by improving my relationships and my honesty with people, I'll be much more prepared to be An effective person at sharing philosophy with others and being more open about it in general.
So I think one can combine all of the selfish needs and also look forward to the bigger goals.
Right, and if you have a bigger goal, you just, you get, it is then still a selfish goal, right?
I mean, I get selfish pleasure out of trying to do as much as I can in this realm, and I actually get more pleasure the larger the goal.
I'm trying to sell pleasure, not, you know, indentured service to the future, if that makes sense.
Yeah, and the pleasure of efficacy, of feeling like you really can make a difference and help people.
Right, right, right.
Well, thanks. That's an excellent, excellent point.
And does anybody else have anything they wanted to add or comment on before we close down?
And, Colleen, was this a satisfactory conversation for you?
Oh, it was enormously helpful.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, anytime. Thank you very much for the participation and for the extraordinarily effective amounts of I don't knows that triggered all this.
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