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July 20, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:45:30
1109 Sunday Show July 20 2008

Families and freedom - two conversations...

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Time Text
Alright, well thank you everybody so much for joining us.
This is Sunday, July the 20th, 2008 just after 4 o'clock in the afternoon and it is time for our regularly scheduled We're good to go.
But I just wanted to mention that I'm going to take a short diminishment for a little bit of time from FDR just because I do have to help my wife set up because we are expecting or rather I am expecting and she is gestating and so I'm just giving her because we can't do a lot of therapy with a screaming child in the room.
We found that of course She couldn't do a lot of therapy with a screaming husband upstairs, so we figured that combo of the husband and the child screaming at the same time probably won't get a lot of patients to relax, so we have rented an office, we're hiring people, and so I'm just giving her a hand getting all of that set up since I've done that sort of stuff before in the software world.
We are doing that. It's going to cut into FDR time just a little bit, but of course it will open up time again in the future because it will be nice to be able to work in FDR without Christina is seeing patients downstairs and inhibiting my catawalling.
And so basically what I'm saying is it's going to be a lot more musical podcasts.
And for all of those who didn't give me feedback on practical anarchy and everyday anarchy, although they liked it, I'm assuming that exactly the same thing is occurring with the musical podcast.
Not a lot of positive feedback.
I'm simply going to assume that you love them all and that should not be considered entirely punishment.
Largely But not entirely.
So, that's it for my intro.
If anybody else would like to have questions or comments, I am all made of donkey ears.
So please feel free to unmute yourself and speak away.
Hey, Steph.
Hey.
Hi, this is Kevin.
Hey, how's it going, Kevin? It's going okay, I guess.
We thought you joined another cult.
It was quite...
We're full of consternation.
Oh, shoot. Sorry, just before you start, I just wanted to mention that I was in fact contacted by a reporter who's working for The Guardian who wants to do a story on FDR. So I'm going to talk to her this week.
And she's interested in the DFU stuff, so she's probably looking for some scandalous culty stuff about separation from family and absorption into the heavily defended fortified igloo compound in Canada.
So I'll try and set her straight about all of that.
And I'll let you know how it goes, of course.
And I'm sure that will be an interesting article nonetheless.
Well, we don't know. She may be looking for some sensational stuff, and when she finds out it's an internet philosophy show, she may not end up having much of a story to sell.
I just wanted to mention that.
Sorry to interrupt you before you started.
I just wanted to mention that before I forget.
Sorry, Kevin, please. I'm back with the ass ears, so please.
Okay, no, that's fine. You're starting to get garbled again, too.
Interesting. Just to let you know.
Well, yeah, sorry. Just for those who are technically interested, I have a network sniffer here, and I'm not going above, I guess, an average transmission rate of 13k per second.
So there's nothing spiking or eating up bandwidth, so it must be something outside of this particular area somewhere else on the Skype network.
So we will just have to struggle through as best we can.
Okay. Well, so, I, last night, or I guess early this morning, I made a big post on the board about some things that have been going on with my family.
Yes, I did have a look at that, so go ahead.
Yeah. Well, you know, they've been kind of...
There's been some pressure, I guess you'd say.
They've been pushing in on different sides and been trying to deal with that, I guess.
Really, what I wanted to talk about was my seeming reticence to actually talk about this stuff on the board.
That kind of concerned me.
Right, okay. Because, you know, I, you know, because I, well, like I said in the post, I defriended from, like, really the only two friends that I had locally.
And then instead of reaching out to people on the board, I kind of pulled back in.
So, that kind of wasn't very good.
I was kind of lonely there for a while.
Sure, sure. And what's your question?
Is the question why?
Well, I guess, sort of.
It's kind of what I wanted to go into.
You guess sort of? I'm sorry.
You guess sort of?
Go on. Yeah, I wanted to go into why I pulled back for so long.
And what's your theory?
Well, my theory is that it had something to do with, you know, after my, you know, the week after my birthday, I fired you know, the week after my birthday, I fired my therapist.
And... After that, I just kind of...
I think I had a feeling like...
You know, I'm not really helping myself, so why should anyone else help me?
Does that make any sense?
Well, in what way were you not helping yourself?
I don't know. I... I mean, I had stopped, you know...
I had stopped journaling.
I had stopped really introspecting at all.
I was still listening to...
I'm still listening to your podcast, but...
You know, because I'm still in the 700s, I think.
And... So I was doing that, but I wasn't...
Really...
Reaching out. I just wasn't trying at all.
I'm just kind of staying where I am.
And, you know, yeah.
And, sorry, if you have a theory as to why you did that, I may have missed it.
Somewhere in between the words.
But if you could tell me why you thought you did that, that would be good.
Well, I, I, I think that I was, like I said, I think that I, I felt like because I wasn't taking the effort to, I wasn't taking any effort to help myself or to do anything really, so why should I ask for help from anyone else?
Right, like I'm not controlling my portion so why would I go see a nutritionist, right?
Okay. Why would I go and see a nutritionist who's simply going to say, you know, stop eating four pounds of lard in the morning, right?
So if it's stuff you know that you need to do and you're not doing it, then why would you want to go to get the advice repeated?
Is that right? I think so, yeah.
Okay. If you think so, what part of that is not right?
Or are you just going to give me Swiss all day?
I won't keep bothering you.
If that's your preference, I'll translate in my own mind.
I just wanted to know up front.
What did you ask me again?
Let me rephrase it for you.
Fog. Does that help?
Does that clarify things a little for you?
I want you to put on a little sweater with a zig-zag pattern and get a beagle.
Okay. I can do that.
So you feel that you weren't doing the stuff that you needed to do, that you knew you needed to do, and therefore there was no point asking for help?
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Now, there's a way to test this thesis, right?
Like, we don't need to make up, we don't need to have sort of religious theories, so to speak, you know, well, you know, maybe God created elk.
Okay. We can actually test the theory, right?
Yeah. And the way that we would test the theory is to look at the cause and effect.
So in other words, you would have an eagerness to talk to the community, you would not talk to the community, and then you would feel depressed and unworthy Afterwards, right?
That would be how you want to, you know it's important, you perversely decide not to, and then you feel demotivated and alone.
That would be the logical sequence, if I understand it rightly.
Yeah, that sounds right.
Okay, and was that the case?
Like you type a post into the board or whatever, or you create an email that you send to me or whatever, saying I want to talk or whatever.
And then you just decide to say, no, that's it.
I'm not going to do it. I just don't want to do it.
it and then after that a day or two after that you began to feel depressed and alone i think maybe i felt i might have felt depressed and alone first Thank you.
Right. And I'm glad you said that, because otherwise you'd be insane.
Right? Right.
Because if you really want to talk to someone, it's very easy to talk to them, especially on the internet, right?
Yeah. Okay, so it's not that you created actions that made you feel unworthy of being helped, right?
You felt unworthy of being helped first, right?
And that interfered with your desire to talk to the community, right?
Right. And then, if something interfered with your connection to the community, who did you blame for that?
Sorry, Christina just pointed at herself, but I don't think she means that you blamed Christina.
You weren't pointing at the baby, were you?
Yeah. So who did you blame?
I blamed myself.
Right. Right.
Right. And that's not logical, right?
No, it's not. So clearly we have, well, we have three general actors in this drama, right?
We have you, your family, and FDR, right?
Right. And you got a foo assault, right?
Mm-hmm. Sorry.
It's always one of these.
I'm not sure if it's a yes or no.
Okay. So you got a foo assault, and would it have been beneficial for you to be in contact with the community of like-minded people who would empathize with you?
Definitely. All right.
Would it have been to your family's benefit if that occurred?
No. Okay.
Take it from here. Certainly not.
So, I was doing what my family wanted, not what I wanted.
Yeah. You are easier to control and bullied when you are isolated from a support network, right?
The core essence, sorry, the redundant, the essence of bullying and control is isolation, right?
Could you try that last line again?
The benefits, sorry, the core of control and of abuse is isolation, right?
Hmm. Core, say that one more time.
Sorry, is it that you didn't hear it?
No, I just need to hear that one one more time.
Abuse is isolation. Right.
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Now, I don't mind that you didn't work over the last month, but I'm not getting the feeling that you're working at all now, if you don't mind me saying so.
What do you mean? Well, you're just kind of...
Hmm. Are you alone in the room?
Is there something that's causing you to feel stressed about the conversation or distant from the conversation we're having?
Not really. I don't think so.
So, the fact that it was not your responsibility, the fact that it was a move on the part of your parents to keep you isolated from a supportive community, that doesn't cause you to feel anything, right?
If I'm getting where you are.
Well... Actually, I do feel...
I guess a little anxious.
Alright. Um...
It's weird.
I feel...
numb, almost.
You say you feel numb almost.
Is there a part of you that doesn't feel numb?
Well, I think there is some...
Anxiety there, but it's like it's hard to feel, if that makes any sense?
Well, it's actually not hard to feel, right?
I mean, if you stub your toe, it's not hard to feel, right?
Right, right. What this means is that you have a resistance to feeling, or rather, to be more precise, a resistance to feeling is within you, right?
Right. So, given what we've just talked about, why is that occurring?
Because I don't want to feel that my family is really against me.
You don't want to feel that your family is really against you.
Why wouldn't you want to feel that, if it's what the truth is?
Well, first of all, the letters that you posted, clearly they were against you, right?
Right, they were.
Okay. And you posted those because you felt that they were against you, right?
Right. So, you already communicated that your family is against you, right?
right?
So I'm not sure why you would, I mean, I'm not saying it's fun or we want that knowledge, but you already posted that.
So I'm not sure why you would say that you don't want to accept that.
Hmm.
So could it have another cause then?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, I would assume so, unless demonic possession is a theory we've overlooked, it would have to be another cause, right?
Right. So, remember, we've got these three actors, right?
Right. So, work through it.
Right, follow the benefit, right?
Follow the benefit. So it would benefit me to talk to the people at FDR. Well, no, we're sorry.
We already went through that. Nice try.
But we already went through that one.
We're talking about the knowledge of abuse, right?
Right. So the knowledge of abuse would also benefit my parents.
Right. I mean, not having the knowledge of it.
Right. Right.
Hmm. So really I'm just acting on their behalf even though I'm not with them anymore?
Well, it would seem so.
I mean, you would have had a lot of programming as a child to act on their behalf in this way, right?
Right. Right. Hmm.
Yeah. Okay, now I'm starting to feel a little more.
Did you stub your toe? No, no, I didn't.
Sorry, just kidding. Go on.
Um, no, just a little, just a wave of feeling in my chest.
Um, So really this whole time I've just been...
It's like I've been dragging them along for the ride.
You've been dragging them along for the ride?
Okay. So what it means is that you had a choice in all of this and you decided to bring these abusers into your life and have them cut you off from a supportive community?
Because you're talking about it like it was your choice.
You did it, right? Right.
But... But I had no choice about having them be my family.
Right? Right, for sure.
You had no choice about them being your family, and you had no choice as to whether or not...
You were going to end up pleasing their preferences or prejudice or desire to continue their abuse, right?
Right. And that makes sense.
So you regressed...
Back to a time where obedience was required but a knowledge of obedience was impossible.
Right? I regressed back to a time and then I didn't hear anything else.
You regressed back to a time where obedience was required, but where a knowledge of obedience was impossible.
Hmm.
Because you didn't know that you were obeying your parents, right?
Bye.
Right. Right.
It was unconscious.
Yeah. So...
So I've been unconsciously obeying them...
Instead of trying to benefit myself.
Right.
And they had explicit commandments, which was, do not contact your friends, do not connect with anyone outside the family, and do not know that these commandments are absolute. and do not know that these commandments are absolute.
Wow, okay.
Okay, now I feel a little better.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I think something about that clicked.
Did it go on? No, just, um, they...
So it's like they've been...
Well, they've been in my head the whole time.
Yes. And when they're in your head, you can't know that they're in there.
They're cat burglars. Right.
Right. You know, like that FBI thing, they can go into your house and take stuff and make it look like they were never there.
Yeah. So it's like they've hauled out a little space in there.
No, it's not a little space.
No, you're right. It's like a...
You vanish, right?
You become an empty vessel filled with their needs and exploitation, right?
Right. You can't think, you can't process, you can't be, you can't evaluate, right?
There's no you to ask for help in that situation.
It's like if I have a hand puppet and I fall down and I say to the hand puppet, "Go call 911." There's no identity or existence which can allow you to call for help, to have help, to notice that help is not there, to notice that you're obeying, to notice that they're to notice that help is not there, to notice that you're obeying, to You are eclipsed, evacuated, replaced.
Oh, wow.
Isn't that so true?
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's like a, just like a, just a shell.
Yeah, but it's a shell without knowledge of being a shell, right?
Right. Bad things happen.
And it's all me, right?
This is called emptiness and narcissism, and I don't mean to say that you're narcissistic, but this is emptiness and narcissism at the same time, right?
I am responsible for everything.
I am making the choices to not connect to a community that is helpful.
You know, and it's weird because I respond so strongly when people say that, you know, when people give that tact that, you know, your parents are just doing the best they could.
So there's a part of me that knows.
Oh, absolutely, there is a part of you that knows.
And, yeah.
And, you know, that was the part of me that got rid of my therapist because that's what she was saying.
Yes, because if somebody genuinely does the best that they can, then there's no need for unconscious propaganda, right?
Right. Unconscious propaganda, that's...
I mean, to give a simple example, if I am a track star, and...
I go to a track meet and I run as hard as I can and I come in fifth or something.
Actually, but I can talk.
I swam for my high school and I came in eighth in Ontario, which was not bad.
And I swam as hard as I could, right?
I had good sleep the night before.
I had a good breakfast.
I went in and I gave it everything that I had.
Right. So I can say, very openly, I, you know, gave a shot and I was 8th best in a small province in an outlying colony country and, you know, that makes me like 10 billionth in the world or something, but I went and gave it my all.
So I don't need to make anything up about it, right?
Right. But if I'd made the decision the night before to go drinking...
And I got three hours of sleep.
And I ate four Snickers bars for breakfast.
And I was dizzy.
And nauseous. And shivering.
And I came in last or eighth.
How would I explain that to people?
I bet you what I'd do is I'd say later, most people would say later on, Oh, I got sick.
It was such a shame. They would make something up to hide what they were ashamed of, right?
Right. Because that would be the usual...
Sorry, could I just ask you to stop moving your mic around?
It makes kind of a grinding noise.
Sorry, go ahead. So that would be the usual...
You would get defensive.
Yeah, you would just make up something.
And you would say, well, it's not me.
Yeah, or, you know, I only had a couple of drinks, but I must have eaten something that disagreed with me, or I must have had an allergic reaction to something, or...
It would be something that wasn't your fault, right?
Right. But in this case, it's the opposite.
Right, so... Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah. Because I'm saying that, well, all of this is all my thing.
It has nothing to do with anybody else but me.
And I'm the worthless one, or whatever.
Yes, that's right.
And... Whenever we lack curiosity, right?
That's why I focus so much on curiosity in RTR in this conversation.
Whenever we lack curiosity, we just always end up with propaganda.
The reason, if I went out drinking the night before, got no sleep, and bombed out of the race, the reason that I would want to make up an answer...
It's because I don't want to explore the question of why I worked for years to get to a swim meet and then completely self-sabotaged right beforehand.
Because that would lead me to a place that would be really tough, right?
About my family, about my history, about all that stuff, right?
Right. So I'm just going to make something up.
I got food poisoning, right?
I'm just going to tell a story.
I'm just going to tell a story. I mean, that's what religion is, right?
In religion, you make a bunch of stuff up and stick to it because you don't want to realize how badly you were lied to.
Right.
So then my story is that I'm lonely and sad and all this stuff because that's the way that I am.
It has nothing to do with how I was brought up or how my parents treated me.
Now, what was wrong in what you just said?
what was wrong and what I just said.
Well, how did you start that sentence?
This is not a criticism. This is the degree to which we're habituated this way.
How did I start this sentence?
You said, my story is.
Right. Right.
It's not my story. It's not your story.
You didn't sit there with a healthy and happy life and positive and loving relations with your family and say, okay, heads, I'm going to have a story that says I'm a good and healthy and happy human being, and tails, I'm going to tell myself that I'm just lonely and creepy and weird and distant and fucked up and all this, right? You didn't make that choice.
Who would? Nobody would.
It's not your story. No.
It doesn't serve you, obviously, right?
Right. It's the story I tell.
No, it's not the story you tell.
No. No?
No. Whose story is it?
It's my parents' story.
Right. It's not the story you tell, it's the story that was inflicted upon you.
It's the story that you would have been punished for rejecting.
Like, we don't say to a guy who was raised from the age of birth to be a crazy Catholic, it's your story, right?
Right. This is what I had to obey in order to survive, right?
In order to not be attacked or assaulted or demeaned or belittled or abandoned, right?
Right.
This was the requirements of my survival.
I had to nod and grin and bow and say, yes, sir, and no, sir, and three bags full, sir, in order to get my daily bread and not be attacked or belittled.
Right?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Right. Most of our childhoods is, what do you crazy fucking people want me to say today?
Yeah, that's true. Right?
What crazy ass shit do I have to spew today to avoid getting assaulted and to get some food?
What magic spell do you want me to mouth in order to gain a shred of approval and comfort in this family?
And it's not just at home, right?
It's at church? Oh, you want me to recite the Lord's Prayer so I don't get punished?
So I can go out and play?
Okay. Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, right?
Thy kingdom come, thy name.
Right. It's the same.
Oh, Pledge of Allegiance in school or I have a detention?
Fuck, fine. Okay. Pledge of Allegiance it is.
what crazy shit do you want me to say today to get through the day right and the crazy shit that you were forced to say My parents are good, I'm difficult, I'm bad, I'm lonely, right?
They're perfect there, right?
Yeah. And you repeat that?
And also that you're not being forced to say it, but it's actually true, right?
Right.
That's the unconscious part, right?
They don't say... You have to mouth the Lord's Prayer or the Pledge of Allegiance or the Pledge of Family Cultishness in order to get dinner.
And if you don't, it's meaningless, but I want you to mouth these syllables so then you get food, right?
Right. They never say that, right?
What do they say? Well, they say you've got to say grace or you're not getting any food.
Well, yeah, but why do they say you should say grace?
Because they want you...
Because they want you to believe their story.
Well, but they don't say, I want you to say grace because I want you to believe my story.
What's the propaganda? No. Oh, they...
Because it's good.
Because you should thank God for the food.
Because God is good.
Yeah, this is not an empty ritual.
This is virtue! And if you don't do this, you're bad!
Right? Right.
You're bad, you're disobedient, you're disrespectful, you're not grateful, right?
Right. So they tell you to mouth these empty rituals, and then they call this empty ritual virtue.
So they're saying, hey, I'm not asking you to obey me.
I'm asking you To obey virtue.
To be a good little boy, right?
Yeah. Be the good little...
Be the little boy that we want you to be.
The good little son.
You know? Right.
And as I've talked about in podcasts, the idea that people use our desire for virtue and to be a good person to enslave and control and bully us is too horrifying for any child to process.
Right. Because that turns them into mental torturers, right?
Right. A torturer uses your desire to avoid pain and your body's capacity for pain to control, demean, belittle, and break you, right?
Right. And in the same way, these propagandists use your desire for virtue and your pain at even the thought of being bad to enslave you to their propaganda, right?
Okay, I didn't hear that last part.
They use your desire for virtue and the bad feelings that you have when you feel that you are not being virtuous in order to enslave you to their corrupt propaganda, right?
And that's why you don't notice it because the horror that's at the core of what is going on for you in this family is that they are relying on your desire to be good To control you, to control you and enslave you to corruption.
Right. I mean, the stuff that you posted on the board, I have no respect for you, it's cowardly what you're doing, this is all arguments for morality, right?
Right. Nobody asked you, tell me why you did this, help me understand, I really want to know.
Exactly. There's no curiosity, it's just, you know, you have dared to step outside of the narrative.
Well, except they don't ever call it the narrative, right?
Of course, yeah.
You are bad.
Yeah. You're bad.
But you can never have it framed as it really is.
The truth has to remain unconscious because the truth of this kind of interaction is just too horrifying.
Because these people understand ethics better than every philosopher throughout history, I would say.
Just your uncle, your extended family, whoever is writing you this shit, they understand the power of ethics and our desire to be good better than all the moral philosophers put in a barrel.
They understand how much you want to be good, they understand the power of morality, and of course that's what I'm all about, right?
Which is trying to get us to recognize the power of morality so it can't be used against us anymore.
So when I feel so just down and worthless, that's really, that's me as a kid.
Feeling that way when they called me bad, when they said whatever bullshit they spewed.
Whatever they wanted me to do.
Yes, and you avoid the knowledge of what they're doing because it would have broken you completely to recognize that as a kid.
To recognize what they were doing to you.
Right. And you know all of this.
There's nothing I'm telling you that you don't know.
Because you were in Miami and you have read RTR and you know that the first thing is curiosity to the self, but instead you bypassed that, right?
You went straight to a conclusion.
Right. The devil is making me sad.
I must have an enema.
Right? Or something like that.
Yeah. So you know what to avoid, right?
Because you knew deep down where this curiosity would have led you, right?
Right. Right.
So it would have led me to the knowledge that I already have that my parents are evil bastards.
No, I mean, that knowledge you already have, right?
No, it would have led you not to that, which you know, but it would have led you to how agonizing it was and remains to be controlled by your desire for virtue.
Yes. It's the pain that you're avoiding, right?
The pain of the real knowledge, the emotional knowledge of what was done to you and why.
Yes. And the anger.
Yeah, I'm feeling that. Yeah.
Right? Because you turned a lot of anger in towards yourself, right?
I'm failing the community, I'm not doing the right things, I'm chickening out, I'm...
Right? Right.
And you are angry, and you should be, but anger towards the self is just continuing the cycle, right?
That's your parents' story as well.
If something goes wrong, it's your fault, right?
Right.
I mean, it's like me driving with my baby in a baby seat in the back of the car, and I run into a flagpole and I turn and yell at my baby, God damn it, pay attention when you drive.
Which makes no sense.
Right, but this is, of course, what parents do all the time.
Parents are in charge, but when things go wrong, it's the kid's fault, right?
Parents are driving, but when they crash, the kid's a bad driver, right?
Right. Or if they're in an irritable mood, it's your fault.
Right, right.
You didn't keep your room clean.
You haven't taken a bath yet.
You didn't clean up the table right.
Oh, I remember this when I was a kid.
My mom, when she would be in a shitty mood, she'd come home and I could see her looking around The apartment looking for something that was not right.
For something that hadn't been done.
For something that was a problem.
I could see her scanning for it.
I could see it. And I'd always try and get out of the house, right?
But she'd just walk from room to room, smoking and looking for things.
Looking for something. And then she'd find something.
And then she'd blow up, right?
Yeah, no, you've mentioned that before, and I remember I've had the same experience.
There's just some days where it's like she's out on the warpath, and it's like you've got to treat her like she's made of nitroglycerin or something.
Well, but it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how you treat her, right?
Not really, no, because she'll find something.
Oh, yeah. I mean, if you try to be too nice, you'll be like, stop hovering!
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So it's a lose-lose all the way around.
Oh, yeah. Anywhere you win, you lose, right?
So any way you play, you lose, right?
Right. Well...
This has been helpful. I'm not satisfied.
You're still emotionally disconnected from this.
I'm doing all the feeling for you, right?
I'm the one. My heart rate is up.
I'm feeling tense and angry and irritated.
I'm doing all the feeling for you, right?
Yeah. No, I feel...
I do feel a little tense.
A little tense?
Yeah. We just ripped the soul of your childhood right open and you're feeling a little tense, like you're running late for a dentist appointment?
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
Thank you.
Right, so you're putting me in a...
Something that wants to get out.
Sorry, you said something that wants to get out?
Yeah, there's like a tightness.
And where is the tightness in your body?
Right in my heart.
And have you tried the stuff like breathing slower, relaxing physically, all of the stuff which we've talked about before?
Not really.
So does that mean you've tried it a little bit or not?
Well, it really ever gets this intense.
Well, try it. Try just slowing your breathing down and relaxing physically, right?
Because, of course, there's a big roadblock.
I'm not trying to make you feel anything.
This is just things to do after we've stopped talking.
But your family, for sure...
Does not want you to feel all of this.
This is strictly forbidden, right?
This hurt, this anger, this disgust.
This disgust. This is the great secret of childhood, or at least one of them, right?
Is the disgust that we have for those around us.
Because we know. We know exactly that we're being raised, for the most part, by monstrous, half-retarded children, emotionally, right?
Right. Right. Who claim to instruct us on how to live and don't have a goddamn clue about how to live with any wisdom or respect or maturity, right?
Right. So the contempt that we have for those around us, for authority figures as children, is prodigious.
Sorry you were going to say. Well, I mean, you know, and what gets me is that, you know, I used to look at the parents of the friends that I had, and I always thought that my mother was better.
You know, some of them, you know, they had like, you know, they would regularly Scream at their parents or they openly hated them, that kind of stuff.
And I was like, well, my family's better.
We didn't, you know, our parents didn't get divorced.
You know, we didn't come from a broken home.
It's just... It's hard to see how broken it was.
Go on. To see how much of a...
See what a thin veneer of nicety was over just a bunch of shit.
Go on. Just none of it meant anything.
What do you mean? None of it was about me and all.
It's just awesome.
It's just awesome bullshit story.
That's just all I've ever done.
Sorry, could you just say that again?
That was all I was to them.
Right, like a prop for an aren't we great kind of sitcom, which is really a horrible tragedy, right?
Yeah.
You know...
So, it's like...
I don't exist.
Not to them.
I'm just, you know, just something that they can be proud of.
Right. Or, you know, but, you know, do they know who I am?
No. They don't have a clue.
Well, they don't want to know. No.
Because if they know who you are, they can't use you as a prop, right?
Right. No.
No, then they just, you know...
No, they don't get to...
They don't get to screw with me all the time.
They don't get to... To fill my head with bullshit.
Right. It's like trying to hug a family portrait or something, right?
Right.
And your identity, who you are as a human being, is actively negative to them, right?
Right.
Right.
I mean, yeah, because they've...
They don't want to know that.
Because that would be, you know...
Although it would mean that they would have to...
They would have to be curious about who I am.
They would have to have some kind of...
Some kind of commitment to truth to even get there.
Right. And if they did do that, then they would actually have to start dealing with the horrors of their own childhood.
Right? Right.
Right.
And why would you want to quit smoking if it feels so good and your children get lung cancer?
Yeah.
And these are the people who tell you to be responsible and to take the tough road sometimes and that there are things in life that you just have to do sometimes that you don't want to.
Right? These are the people who try to teach you responsibility and discipline and maturity.
Meanwhile, they're running like scared little rabbits from their own histories and rending you like ugly wolves to avoid their own pain.
Yeah. What a load of shit.
Yes.
Yes it is.
Wow. And, of course, they send you out into the world like a good little propaganda robot to say how wonderful your family is, right?
Right. To shore up their vanity, their desire for the effect of virtue without the difficulty of actually being virtuous.
Right. You know, why, you know, I'm just shoring up their story.
I become evidence for their fantasy.
Right. And because of that, you can't have an identity.
You can't have preferences. You can't have your own thoughts.
You can't reason. You can't be curious.
So much of your own richness and humanity was denied to you because it was inconvenient.
And antithetical to the mythology.
Right. Very true.
And you can't know that.
You're not allowed to know that.
You must think that you are bad if you drop out of the story.
Right. I have to think that I'm bad, that I'm running away.
Yeah, that you're a coward, that you're hurting other people, that you're insensitive, that you're cold, that you're...
You know, pick your adjectives, right?
Right. It's just...
disgusting.
Yeah, I know it is. I think I have a lot to think about.
How do you feel? I feel...
I feel angry.
And I still feel a little...
I don't know, now it's the after effects.
I don't know if I'm just tired or...
I mean, I get a sense of relief from you, and I don't want to put anything in your mouth, but once we get a sense of what a fucking anvil we've been carrying for so many years, supporting other people's narcissistic fantasies...
Is incredibly hard, right?
It is exhausting.
Yeah. It's like being locked in a room with someone who is constantly teasing and undermining you.
It's like fighting off a swarm of bees, right?
Right. It's constantly provocative, it constantly makes us angry, and we constantly have to diffuse ourselves like a ticking bomb, right?
Right.
I mean, it's really exhausting to serve other people's fantasies.
And then to realize that all that effort was just...
for nothing.
No, it wasn't for nothing!
It wasn't for nothing!
Because then it's incomprehensible.
It was for survival.
You had no choice.
Right. It was not for nothing.
Right. It was for survival.
I did it for me.
Yeah, you did it to survive.
Right. And that's why we need to have such respect for what we did when we were younger.
We weren't just didn't wake up and say, I'm going to be a mindless conformist now.
Hey, that's what I choose.
The degree of propaganda is our degree of resistance.
The fact that we have so much propaganda is because we so much don't believe it.
That's why you don't need Sunday school to remind children about gravity, right?
Right. But you have to keep propagandizing and keep punishing and keep monitoring and keep controlling.
Because we're always chewing through our chains, right?
They got to be reforged, re-manacled all the time.
Mm-hmm. I mean, it's exhausting receiving propaganda.
Imagine how exhausting it is continuing to have to inflict it and to be on guard at all times against reality and a child's spontaneous momentary slip into authenticity which the child is constantly striving towards.
Okay, I didn't get much of that.
Well, To be constantly striving to control a child, to monitor a child, to keep your eyes peeled on a child's every gesture, every word, every blink.
Just in case a momentary slip of the mask reveals the authentic reality underneath.
To constantly hover over and monitor and control, control, control.
A child is staggeringly exhausting.
That's what empties people out, right?
Right. I say this not for you to have any sympathy, but just to understand the degree of emotional energy that was put into controlling you.
Right. And to imagine that it's all...
That energy is really all for my destruction.
All of that time and effort put into beating me down into a fine powder, as you say.
Well, I get the sense that your parents are more narcissistic than sadistic.
So it wasn't for your destruction.
Your destruction was a regrettable consequence of the necessity of maintaining this front, this fiction, this vain portrait.
Right? Right.
Sorry son, you don't get to have a soul because I want to avoid the horror of my childhood and I need to portray to everyone how great I am.
Right? Yeah.
I mean, you are an innocent bystander in the shootout, right?
Right.
So you weren't even important enough to them for them to try to control you for you.
Right.
It's like if my car suddenly phoned me tomorrow and said, I don't like the way that you drive me.
I would prefer it if we did X, Y, or Z. Right.
I would be like, what?
Why did you try to frustrate me all those years while you were driving?
I'd be like, I didn't try to frustrate you.
I didn't even know you could think!
Right. Now, of course, deep down they know you can think, and that's why I would get all kinds of defensive when my car phoned me up.
But it wouldn't be because I was sadistic.
You just don't factor into the equation.
You have to behave a certain way to feed their vanity.
So fucking behave that way.
And if you don't, I'll fuck you up.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
It's not out of cruelty to you, if that makes sense.
Right. But it results in cruelty.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And then that's part of that shocked expression when you try to confront them with something like this.
Oh yeah, they have to feign ignorance.
We did something bad, but everything was for you.
Everything was for you, right.
Right. And of course, then you say, okay, and this is what communists say, right?
Communists say, well, we run the economy for the proletariat.
It's like, okay, well, then the proletariat should have a say in it, right?
Did you ask them what they want?
No, no, we know what's better for them, right?
Right. If it was all for me, why didn't I have a say?
How could you say it was all for me and never ask for my feedback?
Right. Never ask for my opinion.
Yeah. And then bully me, not only not ask for my opinion, but bully me when I express it.
I mean, it's insulting, right?
But because they have this fallback to this bullshit that everyone believes, they can get away with it, right?
Because people believe the bullshit like, well, they did the best they could.
The world is an enabler for these bad parents.
If that excuse was taken away, parents would inevitably behave better.
Inevitably. That's why everybody who forgives your parents and you can't walk 10 feet in this world without coming up to somebody who will immediately attempt to get you to forgive your parents.
Everyone who does that is simply enabling this kind of abuse.
Right? I mean, if your parents tried to say that to people and all their friends said, oh, that's just nonsense.
It's ridiculous. Of course you knew you were doing wrong.
It was apparent to everyone.
But then, of course, why didn't they say anything at the time?
Like, everybody's colluding in this, right?
Right. That's a giant framework.
Yeah. Yeah, it is a giant framework, and that's why it's so hard to change, right?
And it's a framework that attempting to deal with the issues makes you feel a lot worse before you feel better, right?
Everybody wants to avoid this.
Right, I mean, in a way it would be easier just to forget about all this stuff.
Well, it would be, except that I can guarantee you that...
Well, I would never be happy.
You wouldn't be happy, but it would be much worse than that.
All parents, no matter how evil, have those moments, those flashes where they realize what they're doing.
They look into that satanic funhouse mirror of their own behavior and their own actions and their own hypocrisy and their own cruelty and their own vanity.
Everybody has that.
And they're often more than moments.
I remember several times when I saw my mom get a glimpse of who she actually was.
And when you lift the lid of this stuff and you see the absolute hell that is underneath, you can really see what it costs people to do this.
And what a hellish, empty, evasive, cruel, vain, and destructive life.
Comparing a free rational soul is like comparing a ballet to one of these people.
It's like comparing a ballet dancer to a cancer.
So there's no hell after that.
They suffer in the now.
Right. Wow.
It doesn't matter.
Even if you wanted to forgive them, it doesn't matter whether you forgive them or not.
Right, because they're already gone.
Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, you can't change what they've done.
You can't undo reality.
You can't make your childhood a good place.
You can't change the decisions that they've made.
Your forgiveness is immaterial.
Right. You know, like if somebody has smoked for 40 years and gets lung cancer, and they say to you...
I want you to forgive me so my lung cancer goes away.
It's like, sorry, the damage is done.
The physical tracks are laid down.
Your brain is what it is. Your memory is what it is.
Your conscience is what it is.
Asking me for forgiveness is ridiculous.
It's not going to make your cancer go away.
Right. And then, of course, that's part of the story because they're like, oh, you can forgive everything.
Right. And because they anticipate that they will be able to get your forgiveness at any time, they feel so much freer to be cruel.
Right? Sure.
Sure. Some guy wants to have an affair and he knows in advance he can wave a magic wand and his wife will forgive him.
Is he more or less likely to have that affair?
More, of course. Of course.
Right? It is the anticipation of the forgiveness that fuels The cruelty.
Yeah. It's like the rich kid whose father pays off his credit cards.
He doesn't have to be responsible.
He doesn't have to restrain his impulses.
And if you run out of people who are willing to forgive you, fuck it.
Turn to God. God will forgive me.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't like this forgiveness thing, of course.
No. Because it fuels such horrible behavior.
It gives everybody a free pass.
Yeah, it is the communism of the soul, right?
I need forgiveness.
Well, so what? Right.
I need a million dollars.
Doesn't mean that I should hold a gun to people's head and have them give it to me.
Right. The question is not, do I need it, but have I earned it?
Yeah, and that's not what you're allowed to ask.
Right. Yes, because then you can't be manipulated, right?
And you also can't be manipulated if you're true to your feelings, right?
Say, sorry, I don't feel forgiveness.
Well, you should. Well, that may be true, but I don't.
Right. I can't will forgiveness.
But you must forgive me.
Well, I'm sorry, I don't feel forgiveness.
See, emotional authenticity and respect for the emotions takes you out of the realm of being manipulatable.
Manipulable? You can't be manipulated, is what I'm trying to say, right?
You just look at your own feelings and you say, I'm sorry, I don't feel forgiveness for you.
In fact, I feel loathing and contempt.
And I feel even more because you're demanding forgiveness or asking for forgiveness without doing a goddamn thing to even admit the fault, right?
Right. So, we're actually moving further away from what you say you need, right?
So, I'm sorry, you know.
Whereas if you're like, oh shit, I guess I should forgive them, you'll mouth the words, and then of course they're going to, right?
Try and manipulate you, because it'll work, right?
But if you stay in touch with your own feelings and with your own authenticity, you're like, they're trying to push the rock of Gibraltar.
It's like, they can put their back out if they want, but, you know, all I feel is less and less desire to forgive you the more you go down this road.
Yeah. Somebody says, oh, Kevin, I need you to forgive me.
I need you to change the way you feel.
I need you to want to spend time with me.
A good son would want to do that, right?
Then, of course, the RTR thing is to say, let me think about it.
Let me see how I actually feel, right?
Right. Right. I'm going to take a day, I'll mull it over, I'll write some stuff down, because I don't feel like I want to see you, but let me mull it over and let me consult my feelings, right?
Right. And then you go back and you say, sorry, I don't feel that, so I'm not going to do it.
This is called courage and strength, right?
integrity.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, we've had a long time on this Is this useful to you?
Welcome back. Just a cannonball of truth straight to the chest, as usual.
Yeah, hey. No, it's been very useful.
And I feel much more relieved now.
Good, good. Okay, well, do keep us posted about things, and I'm very glad that you, you know, the important thing is that you decided to reach out.
It doesn't, I mean, I think this is a good community to do that, but it doesn't mean that it has to be.
They just reach out to someone who's going to understand.
That's the important thing, to break the isolation.
So, do keep us posted, and thank you so much.
I think there were a few other people who had questions, if they remember what they were.
Feel free to bring them up.
Okay, well, we can do a short show today.
If nobody else has any questions or issues, I have no problem.
We had a big topic there with the KFED there.
So, I don't know if there was somebody else who had a question.
Yeah, I think there was somebody who was going to come in and talk about a letter that she was working on, if I remember rightly.
Hi. Hello.
Sorry, I got nervous.
No, no, she fell asleep. You can say it.
You can say it. I dozed off.
I didn't, I didn't.
Somewhere around the 114th fortune cookie, I just fell asleep.
Yeah, so I've decided to defu from both of my parents.
And I had a letter written out And everything.
And I posted it on the forum and I got some really good feedback.
I'm definitely going to just simplify it a lot more, just keep it as simple as possible, I think I've decided.
Um, and I'm planning to mail it on Monday, but I still have, like, quite a bit of anxiety about it, um, which is probably pretty normal, but, uh, you know, like, I have a brother who, um, he's younger than I am,
and, uh, I, I'm, I'm really, I have a lot of anxiety as to how he's gonna, uh, Take it or I don't know what his reaction is going to be.
Can you just give me a little bit of the mental map, primary complaints about the parents, your brother's age and circumstance and so on?
Absolutely. My parents were divorced when I was pretty young.
I think I was like Seven or so when it was all finalized and everything and you know I I kind of went back and forth between them for the first few years it was just every other weekend and then you know well anyways and then it was like back and forth every week and I got you know I'm 22 now and I've been out of the house for a little over a year and I recently was in a very,
very nasty fight with my dad.
It wasn't really a fight, it was more just like I made a mistake as far as giving him directions to where he was going to be picking me up.
And he was extremely abusive and insulting and very hurtful and, you know, I was really upset.
And I had been, you know, listening to the podcast and pretty much right about that same time I had started listening to some of the family stuff.
And I was just like, just, you know, like appalled that I had kept, like, I noticed that this was definitely not like, this was a reoccurring thing with me and my dad.
But, you know, I realized that it was, like, I just kept forgiving him and, you know, he had such a bad childhood, so it's not his fault and all these kinds of things.
And, you know, I just realized that it's, you know, it's extremely unacceptable behavior.
And, you know, when I tried to talk to him about it, he just, you know, was like complete denial.
He let me get in like four words and then he spent like, Like, 15 minutes talking about how it was okay for him to treat me like that, you know?
Sorry, what was his justifications for it?
Oh, well, you know, he can't change the past, and he can't make me...
Sorry, that wasn't one of your requests, that he actually go back and stop World War II by strangling Hitler?
That wasn't part of your request from the family?
Okay, got it. Right, right, right.
And then, you know, he was saying things like, you know, he can't make me forgive him, but he hopes that I find it in my heart and all these things and, you know, that his childhood was so atrocious, which, you know, what I've been told it was.
And, you know, I never met my grandfather, but I met my grandmother and she was, you know, quite insane.
And sorry to interrupt you, but what steps does he take?
Because he knows that he had a bad childhood and he also knows that that leaves you with trauma and with sub-optimal habits, let's say.
So what has he done, given that he knows and admits that he's had a bad childhood, what has he done over the course of his life to deal with that?
Yeah, and that's another thing that I, you know, realized that I was very upset about was, you know, he's actually just recently gone into therapy.
And I mean, like, probably like four months ago.
And I have a very vivid memory of one time...
I don't know. He has a job on this company where he's on call, kind of.
If there was a rule, if I picked up the phone during certain hours, he might have to go into work and he didn't want that or something because he needed to get sleep.
I had picked up the phone during one of these hours and he just I mean, he was, like, really, really cruel about this, and, you know, I think that, like, right after he realized that it was, like, not really justified, his reaction, and he told me that he was going to be going into therapy, and I was like... And when was this?
I was about 13 years old, and, you know, he just never followed through at all.
Like, he pretty much just...
Pretended like he had never decided to go into therapy or something.
So now he's decided to go into therapy when...
Sorry, and also 10 years ago, what would it cost him, like 20 bucks a month to get a second line?
Right, exactly. And his company pays for his health insurance.
I'm in the United States.
Oh, so he could have got some subsidized therapy for sure, right?
Exactly, yeah.
And he just decided not to because I guess it wasn't worth it.
What was the incident four months ago that got him into therapy?
Oh, he was having relationship issues with his girlfriend.
Oh, so when he's suffering the negative consequences, he'll go to therapy.
But when you're suffering the negative consequences at the age of 13, he won't.
Exactly. Oh dear, I'm so sorry.
Yeah, it's been a very painful, you know, eye-opening experience for me, really, just like looking at my childhood.
And, you know, all this like review of my father really made me look at my mom and there is, you know, a lot of abuse on that side as well.
I actually realized that I don't even have a relationship at all with her.
I see her kind of often, you know?
But we don't ever talk about, like the thing you said about how relationships are held by a thread, I could really relate to that with my mom.
Again, when I was about 13 or so, I told my mom that I didn't agree with a lot of the Christian teachings.
And she didn't react very well to that at all.
So I pretty much kind of shut down as far as trying to talk to her about anything that meant anything to me.
What was her reaction? Or reactions, probably, right?
Plural. Yeah, there was a lot.
A lot of it, she would tell me that I was going to hell and things like that.
And she told me...
Oh, I remember one time, my brother's almost three years younger than me, and he was kind of listening to me, you know, as far as...
I wasn't actively telling him not to believe in Christianity or anything, but...
He was hearing the things that I was saying and I guess he had gotten into a fight with my mom and their fights got a lot more heated than my fights with my mom.
I don't know. I think that, I don't know, things just escalate a lot more with him.
And I, you know, he had told her one time that he didn't believe in God.
And like, you know, this had happened in the garage and I was in, I was on the second floor of our house and I, you know, they both stormed upstairs when that happened.
And my brother went all the way upstairs to his room and my mom came and sat next to me.
I was doing some homework or something.
And she was like, do you see what you've done to your brother?
And, you know, all that stuff.
And I was just like, wow.
I can't believe it.
Right. So the problem is that you're telling the truth, not that they're telling lies.
Exactly. Yeah.
And what was it, sorry to keep interrupting you, what was it that drew you towards atheism?
Was it a book or your own thinking or something like that?
Actually, I didn't commit to atheism until...
Probably like six months ago or something.
When I first realized that I wasn't Christian, I didn't agree with Christianity, I went into like paganism and had like a little bit of like Wicca stuff for a while and then that kind of faded out and then I was just kind of I guess agnostic.
So, um, but you know, I, uh, my husband was atheist and I was kind of curious about it.
So I, I had talked to him about, you know, why he was atheist and, and he just, you know, convinced me.
Right. I guess. No, the wicker stuff is tough.
I mean, all those mushrooms and orgies can be really tiring.
Just kidding. Yeah.
I don't know what was appealing.
Uh, I, Well, my screen name is Buffy Geek, so I had a lot of influence over that, I guess.
I thought that was kind of cool.
It's just kind of ridiculous.
Okay, and sorry, go ahead.
Oh yeah, I was just going to say, you know, and like, I bullied my brother a little bit when I was younger.
I had some guilt about it, and I, you know, Like I would, we had bunk beds and I would, like, I was on the top bunk and I would like hang my arm over the, this is not funny, but I used to hang my arm over the side and it would just like scare him and I thought that was very funny but,
you know, and I have apologized to him for that but I'm kind of worried that, I don't know, that I'm going to like lose my relationship with him because, because I'm, Like, I'm not...
I don't know.
I don't want to lose my relationship with my brother.
Is he still living at home? No.
No. He actually ran away from home.
Like, he's 19 now, and probably when he was about 17 he ran away.
He was, like, he didn't leave the city or anything, but he was just kind of like staying with friends and things like that.
Occasionally he would stay with me, but, you know, and then he just, he was living in Portland for, I live in California for about almost a year, and he's back now.
Right. Well, just to deal with your brother, I can tell you, if you like, the best thing that you can do to ensure or to maximize your chances of keeping a relationship with your brother.
You know, I didn't hear that.
Sorry. I can tell you, if you like, the actions you can take that will give you the greatest chance of maintaining your relationship with your brother.
Okay, yes, please. Your father had a bad childhood, and obviously he has cruelty and so on, an abusive and violent temper.
And he knew that he had a bad childhood, but he refused to go into therapy, right?
Right. So, what am I going to say next?
Oh, I should go into therapy?
Well, I don't know if you are or not, but certainly if you said to your brother, look, I mean, I grew up with a messed up childhood.
There were certain things that I did that I'm ashamed of, that I treated you badly, that I exercised power over you in a cruel way.
I don't want to carry any of that into our adult relationship.
I want to have a relationship of equals, not of older sibling, not of...
I don't want this thing to be between us, and it's my issue to clean up.
Because I was the initiator here, so I'm going to go and do some therapy to figure out how best to reorient myself to be as best a sibling as possible as an adult for you.
Okay. I hear what you're saying.
Like, you don't want to repeat the mistake of knowing you had tough stuff in your childhood and not doing what you wish your dad had done?
Right. Definitely.
Yeah, you know, and...
Like, our relationship with my brother is...
Well, I don't know.
I feel like it's good.
Like, I want to say I have a good relationship with my brother.
But right before I said that, I kind of thought, like, he's kind of been gone.
So maybe I don't have a good relationship with my brother.
Well, that's an easy way to find that out, right?
Right. Just to talk to him about it, right?
Ask him. Right.
You know, I mean, if you could have chosen to have me or someone else, would you have chosen me or someone else and why?
And, you know, just be really curious about what his experience has been like of having you.
Because you learn a lot about yourself that way, right?
Right, right.
Is there anything that I could do as a sister that would be better for you?
Is there anything that's missing? Is there anything that would make our relationship richer or deeper?
Just keep asking him about those things.
Okay. Yeah, I will definitely give that a try.
That makes a lot of sense.
Okay, so is it my understanding that, excuse me, with regards to your father, that you feel that you have taken every reasonable step to have a more rational and healthy relationship with her, a safer, less explosive relationship with him?
Well, and here's kind of like the thing with that.
I don't know. I was really thinking about it because what had happened, you know, after he was...
I told him how I felt and then, you know, he was like over...
I don't know, he was just like not hearing me and so I didn't talk to him for a while after that, probably...
Sorry to interrupt you. I'm not sure what you mean when you say he wasn't hearing you.
Was he avoiding responding?
I didn't hear that either.
Sorry, earlier you said that he was evasive when you talked to him.
Right. But that doesn't, to me, that doesn't fit with you saying that he didn't hear you.
Right, okay, yeah.
Do you know what I mean? Right.
If we know where not to step on a landmine, then we can't say that we are blind to landmines, right?
Right, right, yeah. He was just avoiding me.
Yeah, but he definitely knew exactly what you were talking about, and he knew exactly what you meant.
Yeah, you're right. He did.
Sorry, go on. I had all this guilt and anxiety and all this stuff.
I was taking responsibility for his feelings.
I called him because I really wanted a relationship with him.
But I've kind of come to the...
To, like, a place where, like, I don't know what I want from him.
Like, I don't know if...
Well, I mean, I guess, like, I kind of do.
Like, I just don't...
I don't think that, um...
That he could do anything to make it up to me.
You know what I mean? And, like, even if he becomes this, like, wonderful, peaceful, you know, person, like, I don't...
It's, like, too late, you know?
Like... Absolutely.
I mean, as you know, all of this is just my nonsense internet opinion, so take it with as many grains of salt as you can stomach.
But if you're 22 and you've been working on self-knowledge for some time, as it sounds like you have with your husband as well, then he's way behind you, right?
Right. Like if he's starting, after having done substantial wrong and frightened and bullied children, which is unbelievably damaging to the soul, he's way behind you, right?
Right. So he's never going to catch up.
Right. He's not even going to come close to catching up.
Right. So there's no possibility that he can be a father for you from now until the day one of you drops in the ground, right?
Right. Exactly.
Sorry, you know all of this, so I won't lecture you.
Go ahead then. No, yeah, that makes sense to me.
And it's like with my mom, you know, I mentioned, you know, I kind of tried to talk to her when I was 13.
And, you know, she just wasn't hearing it.
And I haven't gotten into any big fights.
Oh, yeah, I did, didn't I? Yeah, you did.
Yeah, she did hear me.
She avoided me.
And sorry, you know why you do that, because it's easier to imagine they don't hear you than that they do hear you and reject you, right?
Emotionally, it's easier to make that up.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, I... Yeah, that does make sense.
You're right. But she didn't acknowledge my feelings.
Yeah, she did. She rejected your feelings.
Okay. I mean, if somebody avoids or fogs, they're totally acknowledging your feelings, right?
Right. I mean, if you say, I want you to step right here, and they step over it, Sorry, I just swallowed a bit of grape.
Sorry. Excuse me.
No snacking on the show.
If you say to somebody, I'd really like it if you step right here, and they step over it, they're completely acknowledging what you've said, right?
Right. So anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's my job.
Go on. Yeah, and I haven't gotten into any big fights with her recently, and I haven't confronted her about how I feel, you know?
But I don't know.
And I guess I am a little torn right now about whether or not to talk to her about how I feel before Before I send her, you know, a letter saying, you know, that I don't want her around anymore,
basically. But I'm sure, like, I'm sure that it won't go anywhere, and I'm sure that she will, you know, she'll just do what she always does,
you know, and, you know, Act like I'm, you know, this bad person for thinking the way I think and not, and she would never Enter into any kind of a, you know, conversation with me about, you know, religion or...
And she was actually...
My father was never physically abusive, but she was.
She was...
Yeah, she was very physically abusive.
And we've never talked about it, and we've never...
Like, she pretends like she never was, you know what I mean?
Like, she's this good Christian mom and, you know, she loves her children so much and all these things and, you know, it's like, it completely contradicts her behavior.
And you realize that you are both constantly talking about it, right?
Right, right. By not talking about it, right?
Yeah, so she avoids and you collude.
That is a constant core part of your conversation and it warps everything else, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And it's painful.
Like, it's actually... Since I've had this realization, well, not completely this realization, but since I started to kind of dabble with the idea, I had some denial issues.
But I've seen her since, and after, I just felt bad.
I felt like a phony.
Well, because there's so much you can't talk about, right?
Exactly, yeah. And the fact that she acts like my...
Like, I don't have any reason to be in pain is kind of insulting.
Sorry, when you say kind of insulting, can you tell me what part of it is not insulting?
No, I meant insulting.
It's completely insulting, right?
It is, absolutely insulting.
Self-serving, evasive, irresponsible, and humiliating to you, right?
Right. And it's a continuance of the abuse.
To deny the reality of suffering is to pile more suffering on top of it, right?
Right. So, yeah, I mean, so I guess since, because I also feel, I feel the same way with my mother, where I don't, like, I don't want, I don't want a relationship with them.
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
And again, the reason that I'm doing that is that precision in language is very important in these areas, right?
In order to avoid the fog.
If you are spending your time with somebody avoiding core essential topics, you don't have a relationship with that person.
Correct. So when you say, I don't want a relationship, it seems to me to indicate that you think or you may believe that you have a relationship that you don't want to continue.
Right. Defooing is not getting rid of a relationship.
Defooing is the recognition that there is no relationship.
Right. You're just saying...
You know, it's like if you live next door to your parents, and then you move to Alaska, and they say, come over for lunch, right?
They live, I don't know, in the tip end of Florida or something, right?
Then you say, look, we're thousands of miles apart.
I don't live next door anymore.
I can't come over for lunch.
I mean, that's not crazy.
And then they say, why are you pulling away from us?
It's like, I'm not pulling away from you.
I'm recognizing... The basic reality that we're thousands of miles apart, right?
Right. So, defooing is a dramatic...
Right?
Defooing is a dramatic way of putting it, but you're simply recognizing that where there is no honesty and empathy and openness and curiosity and interaction at a core level of value, there is no relationship.
Right. I mean, just to use one more metaphor, not so much for you, but for other people who get confused about this.
I don't know if you've ever met someone.
I met a guy once.
His wife had left him like 10 years ago, but he hadn't gotten divorced, right?
And he referred to this woman who now lived in, I don't know, Brazil or something like that, as his wife.
And he said, I'm married.
And he wore a ring. I'm like, how often do you talk to her?
Oh, almost never. It's like, dude, you're not married.
Right. Yeah, that definitely does make sense.
And I guess, like, I kind of do realize now, it's not...
Because I was having a little bit of problems with the idea of just, you know, sending a letter saying...
You know, that I don't want to have contact with her anymore.
Would be like not giving her a chance to...
I don't know.
Like if the relationship was important to her, like that maybe she deserved a chance to make it up to me or something.
But I guess that's kind of silly, right?
Because she knows what she did.
And the fact that she avoids it and she doesn't talk about it, that's indication enough that she doesn't want to save the relationship or have a relationship.
How could she save the relationship?
What are the actions that she could take that would give you hope that the relationship not could be saved, but that there could be a relationship at some point in the future?
Yeah. You know, it's like if you're going to break up with some guy and you say, well, I want to give him a chance, right?
You know, if he suddenly becomes nine feet tall, grows wings, and can breathe fire, then I'll go out with him again, right?
That's just cruel, right? Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's fair. That makes sense.
Now, I haven't had a chance to look at your letter, but the general few tips that I suggest is, I personally would not say forever in the letter.
You're breaking up. Sorry, I personally would not say forever in the letter.
Yeah, I still miss that.
I'm sorry. I personally would not say forever in the letter.
Again, I can't hear what you're saying.
I personally would not say forever on the letter.
Right, right. Yeah, I didn't say forever.
Yeah, so I need a couple of months off.
It's a trial separation, right?
Right. I need a couple of months to figure some stuff out, to get some stuff cleaned up in my own life or whatever.
I need to get some therapy. And I'll let you know when that process is all done, right?
Right. And then you see how you feel.
During that time period of separation, right?
Right. I mean, this is what they do with married couples who are, you know, six of one, half a dozen of the other.
See how you feel when you're not living together, and if they're all like, oh my god, I can breathe, I'm so happy, I don't miss that person, then that's the answer, right?
Yeah. Right, right.
So give it a shot.
And of course, you know, see a therapist.
I mean, I always suggest this with the DFU process because it is, right?
The important thing is that not seeing your parents doesn't solve the problem of your history, right?
Right. It does stop accumulating it, right?
Right. But that doesn't immediately empty the backwash, so to speak.
Right. Is it very likely that I'm going to find a therapist who supports not seeing your parents?
Well, I guess, huh? If my parents were abusive, then they understand that's not healthy, right?
Well, but you simply don't engage with a therapist who doesn't support you, right?
Say, this is what I'm doing.
I'm separating from my parents.
Are you a Christian?
Do you support this?
Right. Gotcha.
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
And I would talk about that on the phone before even going to see the therapist.
Right. And if they say, no, it's God's will that children be enslaved to their parents, yay, unto limbo, they'd be like, hey, thanks for your time, you crazy old pat.
Right. Okay.
But that's your choice to make.
I mean, you're the customer, right?
Right. Whatever you want in the restaurant of therapy.
just make sure it's something you like and something you need right yep well thank you very much for your time Sorry, just one sec before you go.
Here's where I become the philosophy stalker.
How's your husband with all of this?
Oh, he's great. He's been, I mean, incredibly, incredibly supportive.
You know, he's just been very patient.
Yeah, he's fantastic.
That's very unusual because most times atheists really want to hang on to those Christian mother-in-laws.
So, good for him for taking that step.
Is he there? Yeah, he is.
Oh, tell him hi. So, yeah, no, I mean, that's very important, right, because it's a huge opportunity for your marriage, right?
You're going to be much more present and available if you are not constantly getting refuted by this family nonsense and pretending you have relationships where you don't and so on.
It's not like you're a great wife when you come back from your mom's place, right?
So, his support is going to be very helpful, I think.
Right, yeah. Yeah, it is and it has been.
Yeah, I hit the jackpot.
Excellent, excellent. Okay, well, I appreciate that.
Do let us know how it goes, of course.
And I wish you the best of luck.
You know, just don't do it without therapy.
It is a hugely wise investment because there is going to be a lot of stuff that comes up for you when you start to take a stand with your...
Family and sort of point out the inevitability of, you know, when you stop pretending you have a relationship, things can get quite volatile, both from your family side, but also for yourself as well.
So just make sure that you have, and to put all of that on your husband is a lot.
I mean, you need it. That's why I don't do therapy, right?
Because you need a lot of training and so on, right?
I just sort of point out some things that I think are reasonable approaches, but...
Just make sure you get in to see someone even if it's just for a couple of months and it will make it so much easier and so much less difficult for everyone.
Okay, yeah, I will. Thank you.
Well, thank you. I really do appreciate it.
And I think with that, we can stop our Sunday show.
We've had some two wonderful callers.
I really do appreciate the wonderful honesty that is brought to this conversation.
You people are just plain magnificent in every dimension.
So I hugely, hugely respect, of course, and feel entirely honored by...
The honesty that people are bringing to this conversation and the trust that you put in myself.
It is such an honor to be even a tiny little part of this sort of transformation.
So I really do appreciate what people are bringing to the table as far as that goes.
And have yourselves an absolutely wonderful week.
And I will talk to you guys, I guess, it'll be same time next Sunday, 4 p.m.
Eastern Standard Time. Steph out.
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