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July 11, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:44:10

1106 How Honest Are You?

Taking Stock at Freedomain Radio

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	Yeah, we'll try again.
	And if I stop breaking up, we'll do it another night.
	But, I mean, if we've got the whole top to bottom, you know, ethics, knowledge, epistemology, metaphysics, family, psychology, I mean, if we've got a lot of that stuff right,
	and I think we've definitely got the basics right in terms of ethics and so on, If we've made these sort of quantum leaps forward together as a community, then we're so far ahead of practice that I think more theory is not helpful.
	In fact, I think more theory is actually counterproductive.
	Because if we're right and we've made all these quantum leaps forward, then we have more to put into practice than we could ever conceivably do in a single lifetime, right?
	I don't mean in practice like in terms of saving the world or anything like that.
	that.
	I just mean in our own personal lives, right?
	Makes quite a bit of sense.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	What does that mean?
	I mean, what do other people think?
	Because I've got lists of podcasts and topics and things that were interesting, but...
	I don't feel like doing them.
	And it's not out of any, you know, we cleared up this thing with the feedback and so on.
	And I'm, you know, trust by instincts as I always have.
	And I think it's because we have so much to implement in terms of in our own relationships.
	Like all the challenges that are in RTR. Just RTR, for instance, right?
	I mean, all of those challenges are really hard to put into practice.
	And... Even if we never debate philosophy again in our lives, I just can't see that more theory is going to help, if that makes sense.
	No, I think that people have a lot of work to do individually in their own lives, and I think that that's really what people have to do.
	Maybe, I mean, the podcasts that are helpful that you do is when you have those conversations with people about their particular situation, and that can be illuminating for a lot of people.
	Well, it can be, but is it helpful?
	In other words, is it like, well...
	I'm going to wait for more theory.
	Is theory actually interfering with the progress of implementation?
	And again, this is not save the world implementation.
	This is just in my life implementation.
	I know personally for me that I tend now, and this used to not be the case.
	I mean, I used to listen to the listener combos for theory and stuff, but now I more listen for them to see sort of like techniques of actually like how to talk to people and how to bring these things up with people and how to bring them out.
	I don't know if that's anybody else, but that's the way that they've been helpful for me, at least lately.
	Do you mean, just so I understand, to interrupt, do you mean how you bring these ideas up with people or how you bring your honesty to your relationships?
	Both. All that and more.
	Indeed. So I think that they're, you know, helpful at least in that way.
	I mean, certainly there's enough listener combos out there that, you know, if it was just debating tips from staff and stuff like that, I mean, you know, there are enough out there that it's a pretty good repertoire, right?
	But as far as, you know, the new stuff and helping noobs out and bringing them up to speed, I think they're useful in that way too.
	Well, just in my own case, I'm still sort of...
	I'm just getting the hang of sort of being consistently honest with myself.
	Hey, John, mute your mic, please.
	Oh, sorry about that.
	Go ahead. Well, I was just talking in terms of, like you were saying, application or practice.
	I'm just now starting to get the hang of being consistently honest with myself and implementing that with people that I interact with just in general.
	So... Where to go from there is still kind of a question mark for me, I guess, is what I'm saying.
	Where to go from the honesty thing?
	Right, once you get the consistent habit, then...
	Then what...
	I don't know.
	I'm not sure what I'm asking.
	I guess in terms of the podcasts, I still listen to...
	There are certain subjects that I'm drawn toward that I listen to for ideas on how to think differently about certain questions that I have in my own mind, but In terms of overall theory, I don't... I think I agree with you.
	I don't think we need any more of that.
	All right, and what other people think or feel about this?
	Well, I don't know about theory.
	I just... I like the listener conversations for sure and the conferences and the constant interaction and...
	I'm still kind of working these habits, and it's still not all that easy.
	It's becoming easier and easier, but as long as I continue to interact with everyone, I think it...
	I just don't know where we go from here, really.
	I'm kind of on the same page as Greg there.
	Okay. So you vote for a theory or no theory?
	I'm sorry, I'm not sure. What do you mean?
	Well, I mean, if you've got a new theory, I'd love to hear it.
	But other than that, I don't think it...
	I think practice...
	We should probably focus more on practice than theory at this point.
	Okay. And what do other people think?
	I quite agree with Nate.
	I think one of the reasons that the listener convos are so interesting is that it's sort of, you know, practice, practice, as it were.
	You know, as far as any more podcasts on, you know, here is why you should be honest in your life.
	I know that that's not, you know, what the theory is.
	But, you know, as far as any more, like...
	You talking. I'm not sure how much more of that would be useful.
	I think that we're a little bit past that point.
	Right. We need a lot of...
	I think a lot more participation horizontally in the conferences, not just pyramidally with you leading, but more like in my group, there's a lot of cross...
	Crossfire, I guess. Just the horizontal help going on.
	And it's not that I haven't seen that, it's just that I think there needs to be more of it.
	That's a great idea, I think.
	Yeah, I second that as well.
	So, sorry, can you just tell me a little bit more about how that would look?
	Well, it wouldn't be so much...
	More roundtable discussion, less of a kind of one-to-many interaction where you speak and then people react to you.
	Right, right. Right, so that would be, I mean, obviously nothing to do in particular with me or with FDR, but just people who wanted to set up those conversations would do those, is that right?
	Yeah, and I think that's been happening slowly more and more.
	Yeah, I know it's certainly been happening, you know, amongst the people that I interact with most.
	One of the things that was really helpful the other day is, you know, I was talking...
	I'm getting a lot of wind noise from your microphone.
	Terribly sorry about that.
	One of the things that was really interesting and helpful to me the other day is, you know, I was talking to someone and you were sort of directing me behind the scenes, as it were.
	And I think that's really interesting, like, to actually have you around on a call, but not sort of you talking to one person and then you open it up for questions.
	I think that was really useful, like, in the beginning, but if it was sort of more...
	I don't know. Pluralistic is the wrong word.
	But if it was sort of more, you know, roundtable with a facilitator, I think that would be helpful to us as well as, you know, the person we were helping.
	And that would be, would that be issues within the community or would that be people sort of personal relationship issues or what do you mean?
	I can definitely see it for issues within the community, but I think if there were certain people who had personal issues and wanted to tackle it in sort of a more roundtable way, I don't know, kind of, but not altogether like group therapy in a way, I think that might be very interesting.
	I also think...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, go ahead. I was going to say, I also think that that might be an interesting approach for dealing with theoretical or philosophical questions as well.
	Alright, so it would be sort of like we have an issue around X and it would sort of be a roundtable, is that right?
	With a facilitator?
	That's the way I saw it.
	I'm not sure if that's what Nathan meant as well, but that's kind of what I had in mind.
	Yeah, if you've got new theories and where you would normally do a single podcast with just yourself, maybe just involve everybody to where there's a lot more participation in it, I guess. And I don't know if that would accomplish anything new or if there would be a lot more input and feedback on the theory.
	Yeah. As you, you know, talk about it or present it.
	Just a quick question.
	Steph, what in your mind, what did you have in mind when you said, when you used the terms implementation or practice as opposed to theory?
	I mean, what does that look like for you?
	Well, I mean, I think that the call that we had where we spent two and a half hours working through why, and in fact, if you put it together with the EA calls, of which there were a few, we probably spent seven or eight hours trying to figure out why the feedback had dropped off with the work that I was doing, right?
	Yeah, that's quite true.
	And I think...
	I mean, what that communicated to me, and it was great that we had those conversations, but what it communicated to me was that the theory had moved very far ahead of the implementation in terms of the honesty stuff, right?
	Agreed. Meaning that implementation was sort of...
	In that case...
	Lagging behind?
	No, what does the word mean in that case?
	I mean, like, implementation would have been...
	So what you're saying is implementation would have been the open communication of desire or lack of desire or whatever to...
	Oh, right.
	But it's the backdoor that we talked about in that podcast that if people feel that they can not communicate, right?
	If there's a backdoor, then it means that in terms of like honesty and so on, right?
	Then there is a backdoor.
	Then the theory is way ahead of the implementation, right?
	Because, I mean, we talked about RTR and all this kind of stuff at least starting about a year ago, right?
	Yeah, as a matter of fact, it sort of had its genesis at the first barbecue, if I recall correctly.
	Right, right, right.
	Okay. So, about a – and this isn't – I mean, I don't – again, I don't mean this in any kinds of criticism, but the communication lines weren't being used, right? In other words, I said for months, I'm not getting any feedback, I'm not getting any feedback, and it took like four calls, five calls, eight hours or six hours or whatever to get to the bottom of it, right?
	Yeah, yeah. And again, this is not a criticism because this is also new, I think, in the way that we talk about it.
	I mean certainly obviously everyone talks about honesty and so on.
	But the way that we discuss it here or the commitment that we have here is different, right?
	I mean that real kind of crazy commitment to honesty thing.
	And it means that I think, and so in that year, there's been lots and lots of theory about just something like RTR or whatever, right?
	But then there's still this backdoor, right?
	Like where it's just like, I'm not going to do that thing, you know, write the email to say, I don't want to write the email.
	Right, right. And that's just – it's an empirical observation.
	It's in no way a criticism or a negative thing about the community, right?
	It just means that we're having a great time with the theories, right?
	Because the theories are really exciting, right?
	And they're really cool. Yeah, that's true.
	I mean, they're brain sparkle phantasmagoria, right?
	As far as the fun of digging into all of those meaty logical and philosophical moral challenges and so on.
	But in that year since we first started talking about RTR and with the book and so on, right?
	We have still this challenge, right?
	And I see this in the chat room and I see this in my inbox and so on.
	This challenge around people are still feeling nervous about open communication, if that makes sense.
	Right. And I think it's because the distraction part...
	The theories are so interesting that we feel like we're making progress because we're talking and thinking, right?
	In graduate school circles, it's known as ABD, all but dissertation.
	I've taken all the courses to get my doctorate.
	I've read every book, but the one thing I haven't done is my actual dissertation.
	Where the theory is supposed to coalesce into practice and you put it out and you defend it and then you get your doctorate.
	I've known people who've done this for years, right?
	More theory, right?
	Feeling anxious about your dissertation?
	Read another book, right?
	That kind of thing, right?
	And the curse of the thinker, right?
	This is the Hamlet, right? The curse of the thinker is...
	Where the resolute actions are cyclied over with the pale cast of thought, right?
	That we think so much that we eclipse action.
	I think that the theories have become a way of making us feel like we watched another tape on running so we don't actually have to go out and run because we're studying how best to run and we're going to study some more about how best to run.
	Are we actually going to lace up and go out into the rain?
	No, but... The audio is deteriorating again.
	Oh, well, I was saying, just saying that I'm...
	I'm trying to sort of inventory in my own mind what implementation of practice means.
	Not just inside of what we're doing here at FDR, but like...
	Like, every single day. All the hours of the day.
	What should I be doing besides sending you emails to let you know when I don't feel like reading your books?
	Well, but see, but this is the thing, right?
	This is exactly the kind of thing that I think theory is causing us to have a problem with, right?
	Because, Greg, you have a defense called intellectualism, right?
	I would say that that is one of them, yes.
	Right. And so...
	When we talk about a lack of honesty, you say, well, how would I then go from, let's say, although I don't want to say that, how do I go from 5% to 100%, right?
	Oh, I see what you're saying.
	Yeah. Well, you don't, right?
	Right. Right.
	That's absolutely right. Let me put it to you this way, and this is an open question for everyone.
	I mean, how honest...
	Do you feel, just within the community, right?
	So if someone's bothering you, do you say that you're irritated?
	If somebody is doing something great, do you say, do you, like, are you assertive about your thoughts and feelings?
	How honest do you think that you are within the community?
	And it's just a percentage, and it's kind of a gut feel, right?
	There's no way to, you know, to gauge this rationally or objectively, but nonetheless, we do have a sense of it, right?
	I think 20%, and I think what prevents me from being more honest is the fear of, oh God, now he's going to talk about his feelings again, and oh no, now he's got another problem, or like, not a problem, but oh no, he's feeling something is a problem.
	Okay, so if I understand this right, Nate, if you say 20%, that means that one out of every five things that you type into the chat window is very honest, right?
	I was thinking we're real-time, I guess.
	I don't know. Well, maybe you're talking real-time in the community, right?
	Is that what you mean? Like, real-time talking to people in the community?
	Yeah. Yeah. Okay, and the people that you've been talking to, and this is not trying to catch, just curious, right?
	I haven't experienced you at 20% honesty, but then I haven't interacted with you much lately.
	I've just seen you in the chat room.
	But perhaps other people have experienced Nate at 20% honesty?
	It depends on the day.
	I mean, there have been some days when it's less than 20%, some days when it's more like 80%.
	80% honesty?
	Well, what's the standard of...
	Where's the objective?
	How are we measuring this?
	Well, we just went through that, right?
	See, this would be a defense, right?
	See, this is an example of you not being particularly honest, right?
	Because you're doing the confusion thing, right?
	Because we just said there's no way to measure it objectively, but we do have a gut sense, right?
	So, right then, what would have been...
	Wait, wait, wait. But did you hear me say that? Wait, say that again?
	But did you hear me say that there's no objective way to measure it, but we do have a gut sense?
	Yeah. And I'm not trying to pick on you, right?
	I'm just sort of pointing out, right?
	So you heard me say that, but then when you heard something that was surprising or alarming to you, you went to Confusion Guy, right?
	Right. And that's what I mean in terms of honesty, right?
	Instead of saying, whoa, I just felt really kind of alarmed and startled there, right?
	Yeah, I see. I didn't even catch that.
	And this is not being an annoying critical guy, right?
	I'm just trying to look at the sort of bald facts of the community.
	And we have a very honest community, I think, relative to any other community that I know.
	So it's not a matter of, oh my god, we're down a well and blah blah blah, right?
	But this is still where we are, right?
	We can't get past this thing, right?
	Right. I mean, that alarm thing, I did feel it, it just passed me by, like, instantly, and it's just so fast.
	It is. There's no question.
	It is very, very fast.
	And then you totally fogged, right?
	Because you said, how did we measure it, when we had just talked about this relative subjectivity of the measurement.
	And I don't mean to pick on people or anything like that, because this is just where we are, right?
	Right. Right. So, I mean, this is the challenge, right?
	Which is that we're having trouble, right?
	Because I've always annoyingly say, and without claiming any kind of perfect implementation on my behalf, you know, the honesty is the first virtue that, you know, intimacy is necessary for a community to progress, that, you know, security and closeness and honesty are required for functional...
	And we all nod, right?
	Yes, absolutely, right?
	But... Then what happens is we don't do it, right?
	We have these avoidance mechanisms are still not dislodged, right?
	Right. And in a way that's kind of bad because it's reinforcing the habit of not practicing the value, right?
	I mean, the minute you agree to it, I mean, if you don't then practice it subconsciously, you're reinforcing the fact that you don't have to.
	Right, and then of course what we do is we get all mad at people who don't practice what they preach, right?
	Right, that's been a habit of mine.
	Right, I mean we say, oh my god, Walter Block, you know, X, Y, Z, right?
	Right, right. But we have this value called this kind of honesty.
	And we are just...
	I can smell the fear coming off the community about this.
	Not because it's a fearful community.
	It's an incredibly brave community.
	But because this is totally new ground that I've ever heard of.
	And I've spent quite some time rolling around these back alleys of thought and experience.
	But... I mean, for those who were in on the call that we talked about that just came out, honesty and virtue or whatever it was, when Ash said, I felt resentment about you telling me to save the world.
	I mean, people were here on this call.
	Did anybody find that upsetting or offensive when he said that?
	No. No.
	No. Fantastic. Didn't we all just want to roll out a fucking cathedral carpet in front of his honesty?
	No. Yeah.
	Because it's like, Jesus Christ, if you hadn't been honest and got that, Steph would be whining at us for another goddamn two months.
	I mean, isn't that just magical relief for everyone?
	No, but seriously, when he said that, didn't we just feel like doves released, you know, in the church, so to speak?
	Yeah. I tend to notice, you know, at least with myself, that it's much, much, much easier to be honest with people that I've known for quite a while than people that I don't.
	Like, for instance, I mean, I will tell people that I've known for a while, hey, you know, I felt frustrated when you said X, or hey, could you whisper, please, or whatever.
	But, you know, as far as...
	Random people that I've never seen that come in the chatroom.
	I tell people that I know that, hey, this guy's annoying me.
	But I won't tell the guy, ever.
	Right. But honesty doesn't necessarily mean...
	It's like philosophy.
	It's never one thing. It's just a methodology, right?
	Sure. If someone is doing something that annoys you and you don't know the person, the first question you could ask, if you're curious, is to say, what do you think other people's emotional response is to what you are doing?
	That's really interesting.
	I never think to ask that, but that's a great question.
	But it's important. I mean, sorry.
	Aren't you honestly curious?
	What do you think is happening on my side of the table when you act in this way?
	Yeah, I mean, they have to have some sort of impression or how they think that they're being perceived, otherwise they wouldn't be saying the things that they are.
	I mean, everyone says things to get some sort of effect, right?
	Not necessarily in a negative way, but yeah, that does fascinate me sometimes.
	What do they think that I'm thinking when they say this stuff?
	Yeah. Yeah, when someone comes in and just says, you know, well, you know, striving for self-esteem lowers your self-esteem.
	The self-esteem movement is bullshit, right?
	I mean, it's like, well, how, you know, how do you think that we're perceiving that emotionally?
	How do you think that, you know, something that we believe, being called bullshit, how does that, how do you think that works for us?
	I'm just curious, right? Right.
	I mean, you know, do you actually think that you're trying to aid us or do you think that we're going to respond well to that or why?
	Well, now you see, then you start to lead the witness, right?
	Because you've got to give them a chance to answer, right?
	Right. That's what's going on in my head.
	But I think the question that you asked is more optimal.
	You know, how do you think we're perceiving you?
	And I think deep down, that's sort of what we want to know, right?
	Does this person even know?
	Like, do they know? Are they completely blind?
	Do they have any idea or do they know and they're just kind of weird and cruel?
	Or, you know, just block that person and don't talk to them or whatever, right?
	Right. That's the first question really that pops into my mind is, do I want to interact with this person?
	And if so, what's the reason?
	Why do I want to?
	I mean, is there anything productive that's going to come out of this?
	And if I don't get the sense that there is, then I won't even bother asking him how he thinks that we see it.
	Right, but then I hope that you, as an admin there, would just kick him out, right?
	Oh, right, right, if it's that extreme, yeah, absolutely.
	But this is what I mean in terms of just the honesty stuff that's going on.
	And it's not because we don't have an understanding of the value of honesty and we don't have a dedication to honesty and so on.
	But implementing it is really, really, really, really, really, really murderously hard, right?
	Murderously, that's a good...
	But the amazing thing is, whenever we see it, it's so amazing that honesty is within this community, perceived like the word anarchy is outside of this community.
	Just in terms of implementation, I don't mean in terms of theory.
	And what I mean by that is everybody says anarchy is the worst thing ever.
	It leads to chaos and destruction.
	It's like, oh, well, didn't you meet your wife through an anarchy process?
	Oh, yeah, right?
	I love her to death or whatever, right?
	So the interesting thing is everybody's terrified of speaking the truth, but I can't think of a single time...
	When someone has really spoken the truth in a conversation at Freedom Aid Radio where it's ever been anywhere close to the unpleasantness that everyone's afraid of.
	In fact, it always seems to be quite the opposite, right?
	Right. I mean, I know just for myself that I'm very, very, you know, impressed and actually grateful to the person when they're honest versus, you know, them saying something that they think that I want to say.
	Yeah, we all think it's a ticking bomb and when it goes off it's like flowers and ponies.
	Steph, go bye-bye.
	Is that any better? Am I back?
	Yeah. Well, it's funny because we treat the truth like it's this bomb that is going to just eviscerate us and everyone, but every time it goes off in the community, out come flowers and ponies.
	Yeah. You know, something that just popped up for me is, I mean, when people say things that they think that I want to hear or whatever, I mean, it kind of doesn't give me the choice, right?
	I mean, it says, I'm scared of how you're going to react, so I'm going to protect myself, right?
	And it's like, you know, if you...
	There's something that I'm whispering with one of the people in the chat room, and I just said to him, you know, the purpose of philosophy is to let you live a life of joy and not fear, right?
	But how much do we actually implement that?
	I mean, we still go around in fear of, hey, you know, what we say, ooh, that's going to make me an outcast, or people aren't going to like that, so, you know, I ought not to...
	And if the purpose of philosophy really is joy, then why should we go around fearing being honest?
	Well, just my own experience of this so far is that I don't necessarily feel any fear or terror at being honest, but I find myself acting as if,
	because it's been so long that I've Developed habits out of fear that whether the fear is there or not, I mean, it takes a monumental effort to pay attention to my behavior and to not behave as if I were acting out of fear, if that makes any sense.
	It makes a lot of sense to me, Greg.
	In terms of being honest. And how do other people feel?
	What, in terms of level of honesty within the community, how do other people feel that they're doing?
	We'll go with the percentage.
	Okay, maybe more like one, like maybe 0.01%.
	I don't know if you're being serious there or not.
	I'm, yeah, maybe half a percent, 0.5%.
	We know when the honesty is going on because we feel very interested, we feel very alert, and there's this ripple of energy that goes back and forth.
	That's just the unconscious waking up and connecting, right?
	So when Ashwa said that thing in the call, we get this, oof, right?
	Wow. That's the honesty thing, right?
	And we're honest in working towards that moment and when that moment occurs, right?
	So that's the kind of stuff that I'm talking about.
	Just for myself, I've had...
	Sorry to interrupt. So, for Nate, what was your percent there?
	Because you started with 20, went 0.01.
	0.5 is, I think...
	That's my just off-the-cuff thing, because I just don't think it happens very often, like maybe once every few days, right?
	I'm in the chatroom all the time.
	Right, you are in the chatroom all the time.
	So the 20%, what was your calibration for that?
	What was your metric for that?
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I just don't know.
	No, no problem. I just wanted to see if you had a different metric.
	Sorry, Greg, you were saying?
	Well, I don't know if I'm being...
	I'm not...
	Just going by, say, the conversations I've had in the chat room with various people over the last six to eight weeks...
	I find myself consciously trying or consciously aware that honesty is the goal about 60% of the time, but only actually achieving it about maybe 40%.
	Okay.
	I know for me, I've been in the chatroom a little bit less lately, especially during the day, since I've had the new job.
	And I also find myself sort of watching more than talking now.
	I tend to find that I've been more mindful, like Greg said, of the need to be honest and to actually open up and things like that.
	I don't know. I'm about 30%, I think.
	But one of the main things that I've noticed in myself is I try to take myself...
	Out of the chat now when I'm not feeling particularly well or feeling particularly strong, like I can be honest.
	So I just try to remove myself for that reason.
	And so what was your percentage?
	Maybe about 30% or so.
	Okay, so 30%, just so I understand it, like one out of three of your sentences in the chat window is really honest.
	Yeah, the other bits are, you know, hey, look at this happy link, or, you know, stuff like that.
	Just happy, shiny stuff, which I've tried to stay away from.
	Because I haven't seen, not to be critical, and maybe I've just missed it, but I haven't seen one out of a third of your stuff over the last month, say.
	And it's not a criticism, maybe I've just missed it, but it's my experience is that it's not one out of three.
	That's interesting that I should think it rather more than it was.
	No, no, you could be totally right.
	But this would be more of a collective thing, right?
	Because a lot of other people have interacted with Charlotte.
	And this is part of the honesty, right?
	It's just the feedback, right? What about other people who've been in the chatroom with Charlotte?
	Have they felt that one out of three of the things that she types out is very honest?
	Because if I'm totally misfiring, I'd love to recalibrate.
	So if y'all could be honest, that would really be wonderful.
	I just know when I've been in there, I haven't seen you say anything.
	You've always been really quiet.
	Maybe you're being honest with yourself in that moment.
	I don't know. Thanks, Nate.
	Anybody who's actually seen Charlotte interacting?
	I have something to say.
	I'm not sure everybody is understanding Charlotte for what she means.
	I think what she is trying to say is that one third of the times she thinks of saying something, she actually says something.
	What she wants to say. And the rest of the time, she just doesn't say it.
	So perhaps you are not seeing that she's not being completely honest.
	But that doesn't mean that she isn't, right?
	That certainly could be the case.
	But let's get other people's feedback and see what they've experienced.
	I'm afraid I'm in...
	Well, of what I've seen myself...
	I would say the...
	I would say the 30% mark is pretty close, but just the number of samples is pretty low, so...
	Sorry, the samples being that you haven't seen Charlotte type much?
	Right. Right, she hasn't...
	She doesn't interact on the chat all that much, but in her interactions with me, personally, I mean, they seemed pretty honest to me.
	Just like in responses to my board posts and the handful of Skype conversations we've had.
	uh...
	IM chats, that is.
	Yeah, I seem to have had a lot of private calls with folks lately, so that's kind of influencing my percentage as well, as it were.
	But I don't know anyone else who's talked privately with me or something.
	I don't know, maybe you could say.
	Because it's not just sort of, no, I need to prove to staff that I'm at 30%, right?
	It's that I really want to know, because if I'm wrong, then that's something I have to work on.
	So it would be helpful.
	Well, I think one of the problems is figuring out...
	I mean, it depends on what sort of conversation we're having, too, right?
	I mean... The simple test for honesty is that you have a genuine understanding of what somebody is thinking and feeling.
	That it's not a distraction, it's not a defense, it's not...
	I mean, there's nothing wrong with small talk, but if the person is feeling comfortable and happy about small talk, or whether it feels strained, or it feels competitive, or it feels like jokes are central, the honesty thing is when you have a genuine understanding of what somebody is feeling and what they're thinking.
	Yeah, I've had an increasing, I mean, in personal talking with Charlotte, I've had an increasing sense of honesty in the recent past.
	But I could say, and I haven't been in the chat room that much, but I could imagine that maybe there still is a lot of shiny stuff in the chat room sometimes.
	So maybe the percentage in the chat room, just because of the distractions, the links, the whatever, it may be less than 30%.
	Sorry, with all credit to Charlotte, it's much, much better than it was in terms of a huge improvement.
	It's fantastic. I just want to make sure my calibration is correct, too, when I'm looking at these percentages.
	I think this is an interesting exercise for people, but let me know if it's horribly uncomfortable or something.
	Well, based on that clarification, I'd have to say it's probably lower.
	The... The responses I get from you, Charlotte, are more Putting it in Steph's terms, they leave me not completely confused about what you're thinking and feeling, but only with a kind of general sense of what you're thinking and feeling.
	It's not specific.
	Like, for example, the response that you put in the thread...
	On the final email that I sent to my match contact, I knew there was something negative going on for you, but I didn't know what.
	Okay, thank you for the example.
	And you're actually right, because I thought after I hit post on that, it was like, maybe I should tell him what negative things I imagined.
	But then I didn't, obviously.
	So that's a really helpful thing.
	Thank you. So that's good.
	That takes Charlotte down to 29% and Greg down to 10%.
	Thank you, Steph.
	Well, because Greg, you didn't say anything, right?
	Didn't say, oh, on that thread.
	You're right. You're absolutely right.
	I did not. Because I think you're 40%.
	I mean, again, I think it's great.
	And the people who've been working on it are making great progress.
	But when we look at individual examples, it's hard to see where that really goes into it, right?
	No, you're absolutely right.
	You're 100% correct about that.
	And to use that thread as another example, it completely...
	Not completely, but it just sort of, it whizzed past me that I could respond and ask, well, what negative things, right?
	Really? Really? Okay, so why do I feel so anxious about sharing my thoughts and feelings of the moment without feeling like I'm putting some kind of burden on people that they have to solve some kind of problem about what I'm feeling or thinking in the moment?
	Sorry, Dave. I mean, I hate to do this to you because I know that you're sharing your thoughts and feelings, not wanting to put a burden on people, but I'd like to get a few more people around in the conversation to give some feedback before we go to problem solving.
	Sure. Sure.
	I mean, hold the thought, and I hate to give you an example of exactly what you fear, but I just wanted to...
	Somebody asked what percentage I think I have, and we can get into that if we want, or if people are rapidly curious, we can talk about it now, but I'd like to get more feedback from people...
	About where they think they are in terms of direct and open communication with people.
	Well, I feel like I'm in the single digits and the thought of that makes me feel really anxious right now.
	Like I've been feeling an increasing anxiety through the last 10 minutes of this call.
	Oh, it's horrible. It's absolutely horrible for everyone.
	I totally understand that.
	It's no fun for me. But I think we need to have an objective assessment of where we are as a community, right?
	And this is not, oh God, people have failed or whatever, whatever, right?
	We have these habits.
	So I understand the anxiety, but we do criticize other communities, and I think we do need to have that same kind of...
	It's objective and kind examination of where we are in terms of our goals, our values, if that makes sense.
	So I understand it.
	It's not fun for anyone, obviously, right?
	But I think it is because this would always be where you fall short, you get attacked, right?
	That's our history, if that makes sense.
	Sorry, the last bit you said just broke up?
	Well, yeah, we all have these histories of if we fall short, we get attacked, right?
	It won't let him say certain things.
	Is that any better?
	No, it's not better.
	Yeah, it's all gurgles and bursts now.
	We'll hang tight.
	It'll be fine. There we go.
	All I was saying was that we all have histories that where we fall short, we get attacked, right?
	And if we admit to falling short, then we would get attacked, right?
	Yeah, that's absolutely right.
	And it's interesting because when I said...
	I feel like I'm in the single digits and the thought of that makes me anxious.
	My heart just started beating even faster in that moment.
	Oh yeah, and it's sort of like this, right?
	So like the ugly, nasty dad or whatever, you've been studying for an exam for a year, and you finally take the exam, and you say, oh, I'm doing fantastically, right?
	I'm getting this material, I understand it, and so on, right?
	And then your dad sits down and cross-examines you, and you get one out of the ten questions right.
	I mean, what would happen in our families from there, right?
	Oh, yeah, that's a direct example from my past, almost to a T. Anytime I would have a history test or anything, I would have to make my flashcards and give them to my parents and be quizzed on them.
	Right. And here we have this RTR or honesty quiz, which we've all claimed as a value for years.
	And when we try and assess that in ourselves, we feel that we're coming up not just a little short, but a lot short, not relative.
	I mean, this, I think, is the most honest community I've ever dealt with by far.
	So, you know, we're hundreds of times better than most communities.
	In fact, most communities are actively obscuring the truth rather than getting 10 or 20 or 30 percent of it down.
	So, I mean, let's recognize that we're not at the top of a mountain that no one's ever climbed before, but we're a hell of a long way out of the valley, right?
	So, to me, that's a huge plus, right?
	But yeah, if we say that we have this commitment to real honesty, but we're only in the single digits or whatever, we tense up because it's like, oh shit, someone's going to come over and thrash me, right?
	Greg, sorry, go ahead. Oh, me?
	Yeah. Oh, yeah.
	So, yeah, because I was trying to gauge it in my head, the percentage, and it just kept being drawn towards the low end of the spectrum because I... I realize it's not so, because I'm not a huge poster on the boards.
	I mean, I think I have like 50 posts.
	And I don't say much a lot of times in the chat room.
	So I think it's a lot of times what I don't say, if that makes sense.
	You mean that you have something that you want to say, but you self-censor?
	Yes. I would say that's more accurate than...
	I'm just saying a bunch of stuff and posting things that aren't that relevant, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, and I would consider that a very honest examination of dishonesty.
	And not speaking when you feel that you want to say something because of self-censorship, to me, is a kind of dishonesty, right?
	Yeah, I think so.
	And that's, I think, what was making me feel anxious, because I do think that that is accurate, because I do.
	I'm not... My post count is a lot lower than my involvement in the community, if that makes any sense.
	And I think there's a reason for that, because 50 posts for someone as active as me is, I think, indicative of something.
	Well, and I know, just having met you, what an enormous amount you have to contribute.
	But, I mean, also when you came up for the barbecue, you were a little quiet on the weekend.
	But when you weren't in a crowd, you have, I mean, you just, you're a treasure, right?
	You're just, you're full of treasures, right?
	Yeah, and I appreciate that.
	For sure. I really appreciate that.
	And I do know what you're talking about.
	If I was in, say, the car with you and Christina, I think I was a lot more open than, say, in the group.
	Is that what you're getting at?
	Yeah, for sure. For sure.
	Yeah, and that's, I think, a bit of the anxiety that I have and the area of – one of the main areas of dishonesty that I have to work with in my relationships with others, I think.
	Right, right.
	Because withholding gifts from people who've earned them because other people stole from you before is blaming the innocent for the guilty, right?
	Yeah, yeah, it is.
	It is. And there's another kind of honesty.
	Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to throw this out there for people.
	Oh, sure. But I'm sure you all have heard me say in podcasts, if you've listened to a bunch or any of the ones to do with my marriage, that I will sort of regularly ask Christina, you know, how is your experience of the marriage?
	How is your experience of me?
	Is there anything that I could do that would make you happier or not do that would make you happier?
	Yeah. And of course, I get that.
	I ask for that feedback from the community quite regularly, right?
	Through some of the polls that I have and the feedback that I ask for on the books and this and that, right?
	So is there anything I could do better?
	Is there anything that would be more entertaining or more enjoyable or different?
	So another kind of honesty, I think, is I don't know if I've seen...
	Actually, I know that I haven't seen, but that doesn't mean anything because that's just...
	This would be more private.
	But where you have relationships with people...
	To what degree do you say to them, what is your experience of me like as a friend?
	I mean, what could be better?
	What could be worse? What kind of quality of relationship are you experiencing for me?
	Me? Well, that would be for everyone, right?
	I mean, I don't know if people are doing that, but I just sort of wanted to – I mean, to me, that's very important when it comes to relationships is to ask the person what their experience of the relationship is.
	That's fascinating, Steph, because I was aware that one would want to do that in a romantic relationship.
	It hadn't even occurred to me to ask a friend that.
	Well, what's interesting to me, Carl, and it would explain other things in your life, is that for you, rules that would apply to a romantic relationship would in no way apply to a friendship, because, of course, romance grows out of friendship, right?
	Well, I do view friendship as very...
	That's basically the relationships I've had, because I've only had...
	One romantic relationship, which is hardly romantic at all.
	And so I do, I think, reach a fairly high degree of honesty.
	I mean, maybe, I think at times, you know, over 50% with just one or two or three friends, but at times.
	But the less familiar someone is, or the more public the situation, and especially now that Greg mentions the errors of omission, or the The things I don't say, I do have to realize that I say in the chat room it does come down to a low percentage, maybe 10% or maybe single digits, if you include all the omissions.
	I think of friendships being a lot like romantic relationships without the sex, but I didn't think of applying that particular, very important feedback question to them.
	It's funny. And that, of course, is because most times we get criticized in life, we get attacked, right?
	Right. And who wants to invite attack, right?
	Exactly. Exactly. But of course, then we treat people as if they want to attack us and that blocks our honesty, right?
	If we treat people like they're going to attack us or like they're like the people who did harm to us, then unconsciously we make that association that's going to diminish our honesty, right?
	Right. I mean, when Greg was working at FDR, I asked him, if I remember rightly, a number of times, you know, what's your experience of like working with me?
	Is there anything that you'd like to be different?
	What's your experience like in terms of the tasks and this and that, right?
	Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
	Almost on a weekly basis.
	Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's very important to make sure that the other person is enjoying, you know, the groove that you're putting down, so to speak.
	And I haven't seen a lot of that.
	And now, of course, you can't say that it's not known, because I certainly talked about it as very important in terms of relationships, if that makes sense.
	And this is, again, this is a gap that I'm sensing in the community between ideal and practice, which nobody closes to 100%.
	God forbid, right? It's impossible.
	But I'm not sure where people felt in terms of relative to the ideals of RTR, the honesty and that kind of stuff.
	And that's why I sort of wanted to ask this question, if that makes sense.
	Greg, was there more that you wanted to add in there?
	Greg, me? Yeah, sorry.
	No, I think that's about it.
	I'm certainly going to explore the feelings of anxiety I have both with what I said in this conversation and just my anxiety about sharing what I have to offer with others more publicly.
	I don't know. I think you might see a little more from me publicly in the community, but I'm going to work on that.
	I would certainly love to see more of what you had to offer because I've always found it on a more personal level to be wonderfully valuable.
	So stop being such a stingy, miser bastard.
	Thanks so much. I appreciate that.
	Yeah. I quite agree, Greg.
	And one of the things that I noticed for myself is, you know, I used to think I didn't post too much.
	I mean, I have 700 posts and like two of those are in the last two months, I think.
	I used to think, well, you know, there's nothing that I can say back to this post, you know, and And once, and this has been like in the last month for me, once I sort of committed myself to giving people feedback and trying to find if there was any way that I could help someone or engage or contribute to the conversation, I've found that for some reason I have been able to think of things to say.
	And I know that my conversations with Greg have always been, you know, amazing.
	So I'm looking forward to seeing more of him about that.
	Yeah, well I totally appreciate that and I agree with you that the thought does run through my head as well of What could I possibly add to this thread that others can't, right?
	What do I possibly have?
	And just getting the feedback, especially as I've gotten much more involved over the past six months from others, that yes, I do have things to offer has been such a disorienting thing for me because it's just so different from my past that I think Definitely it's something that is from my past and my core beliefs that I have to work on.
	And what about other people?
	I'm more than willing to start asking names if people don't volunteer.
	There's one girl who spoke up quite well in the chat room but hasn't said a word on the call.
	Hmm. Hey, sorry.
	But yeah, I mean, I assume you're talking about me because I don't know any other girls in this phone call.
	I'm here! I'm sorry, go ahead.
	That was something. Oh god, it's Mother Riley.
	Sorry for the reference.
	Sorry for the reference. Go ahead, Ellie.
	Yeah, I was saying I'm probably lower than 10%.
	Closer to 5%.
	Maybe even lower than that if I really try to think about it.
	True, but I just feel like I get irritated a lot more talking to people than I say because I feel like that would be mean or rude or take away from them, etc. If that makes any sense.
	Do you share with other people that you're annoyed, like the whisper thing or whatever?
	I don't know if that's right or wrong.
	I'm just sort of curious. Do you keep it completely to yourself or do you share with other people who you have a more trusting relationship with what your experience is?
	Completely to myself.
	Excellent. Okay, good.
	So you're in the limbo land.
	Not exactly dishonest, but not exactly open either.
	What do you mean? I'm confused.
	Sorry, sorry. I don't know.
	If a guest comes in and is disruptive or annoying, I will sometimes have a whisper.
	If I don't feel like engaging the guest or whatever, I might have a whisper conversation with someone else who's around who I know.
	And usually it's like, isn't it a bit of a, like I'm glad I'm not just alone in feeling that or whatever.
	Gotcha. Okay, so, um, yeah, I don't even do that.
	I'll keep, because then I feel like I'm just talking behind somebody's back and stuff like that, which I feel bad for doing.
	And it goes down that whole road, but then, yeah.
	And then, like we pointed out earlier, my tendency to shallow out things and whatnot, so I'd say probably five or so.
	Yeah, it's a new tendency that you have to shallow things out.
	You came in all kinds of titanic forms of deep.
	So it's a more recent thing that's happened with the shallowing gap.
	But don't worry, that's on my list of things to talk about at some point.
	All right. And is there anything else that you wanted to add to this?
	Well, I mean, like, it just...
	It seems like we do use that whole theory thingy as a good escape for us because if we're concentrated on learning more, learning more, learning more, we never have to implement anything that we've learned.
	And I think that's probably a large reason why we're hearing such low percentages because We're constantly learning, we're constantly moving on, but we never really take a chance to focus on what we've learned and to implement it and put it in practice and live it, if that makes any sense.
	It certainly makes sense to me, and that's why I have a strong emotional reticence to putting out more theory casts, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, and I agree with that, personally.
	I think... At least, you know, what I see in my moments of utter boredom when I stop by.
	Okay, that's too much honesty.
	We'll work on that.
	But, like, you see a lot of shying away.
	From using techniques, and I know I'm guilty of it too, so I'm not placing blame on anybody for doing this, because, yeah, I'm guilty of it too.
	Because it's really hard to, and it can lead to kind of unhappy thoughts and unhappy feelings when we do it, because we get that whole guilt and that anxiety, and so instead of Doing it and, you know, growing and becoming more accustomed to something that we're not accustomed to will just completely shy away from it.
	Yeah, in the moment, it's always easier to avoid it, right?
	In the moment, it's always easier to avoid it.
	Right. And so, like, and then we talk the big talk, like, oh, no, no, no, no.
	You know, we need to do this and we need to do that and then we need to do this.
	But when it comes right down to it, We hide behind other walls and little fog and we'll do all this sort of stuff.
	So we don't have to do it.
	Yeah, I don't want this conversation.
	I don't want the work that I do to be part of the fog that people hide behind, right?
	Like theories and...
	Right, right.
	And I think, no offense, but I think in a large part...
	It is, because there's just so much production.
	And that's not necessarily a bad thing.
	You know, like, produce.
	Moo. But I think that we also need to take some time after that fact to...
	Learn and live what's been produced.
	And I think right now would probably be a great time to do that because there's so much material out there.
	And a lot of people are still catching up, you know?
	Yes, but even the people who are caught up aren't doing it as often as I think they could.
	Right, I'm just saying, like...
	Right now seems like a brilliant time to lower down the mad dash of production so we can take some time out and we can really get a handle on what we're preaching and really get a handle on what we're saying and explaining to people.
	I see people come in all the time that have come in before and are just really confused.
	Because, you know, we told them to do something, but we haven't done it, so we can't explain it accurately.
	And so they come back confused, and they go, well, I tried it, but it didn't work.
	What do I do now?
	Listen to these podcasts.
	Sorry. Exactly.
	That's all we can say.
	Be like, go down the hall to the left.
	Try a bit more of a Spanish accent.
	Right. Exactly.
	Eventually you open the door and do what the monkey tells you to do.
	Hey, you know how I make my podcasts.
	I didn't know anybody else knew that.
	That was the only thing I was not being honest about.
	For example, I was talking to someone today.
	And they were talking about, you know, how they have all these feelings and they can't get them out and whatnot.
	And people were like, well, why don't you try journaling?
	And she was like, well, I've tried it and it didn't work.
	I don't know what to do. And almost everyone in the room was at a complete sand stall.
	And the only reason I was able to offer any advice in that instance, I don't even know if my advice is going to turn out to be good advice, you know, quite frankly, because...
	There's not a lot to give.
	I was like, well, I tried to explain what the point of it was and then how I deal with the fact that I don't like to journal because it frustrates me.
	So instead, I use art, for example, as my means of emotion floodgate.
	And so it was kind of...
	But it really struck me as...
	You know, really important, like, that no one could really do that, you know?
	And here's this girl who is trying to do what we're telling her to do, but we have no idea how to tell her to do it.
	And it just, it really struck me, like, in this moment today, I was like, wow, we have no fucking clue what we're doing.
	I was like, time to put the brakes on.
	And I was actually typing up a message to you when you called.
	Oh, how cool. Journaling is tough.
	I find that I just end up making my name out of flowers and drawing unicorns and ponies.
	So it's tough.
	But... Of course, and the temptation is, right, and this was this O'Pine fellow who's on the call here now, right, who came in and said, you know, and I'm 26 and living with my mom and so on.
	And everybody was like, oh, you should do this.
	Oh, you could move out. Oh, you could get roommates.
	Oh, you could do this, right? And that is, you know, that's still where we're at, right?
	That's not RTR, right?
	That's Craigslist. And that is not that...
	Helpful, right? As opposed to, well, you know, how do you feel about it and, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
	Or talking honestly about my feelings, you know, I feel shocked.
	I, you know, like I said to him, I said, like, you're totally blowing my mind.
	I am shocked and stunned and all that kind of stuff, right?
	And I think that that kind of feedback, you know, is really hard to get in life.
	It's really hard to get feedback from other people that isn't motivated by their own issues.
	Right. That was one of the things that, you know, I was trying to, or I was listening to the listener combos for, too, because a lot of those things, you know, don't occur to me in the moment.
	I mean, it just, I can quote the theory to my heart's content, but in the moment, it does not come into my head to ask, well, how do you feel about that?
	And there's obviously a reason why that is.
	Why the theory is in my head, but in practice it doesn't come out.
	So I think that definitely stepping back and being a little bit more...
	I don't know, slow and thorough about it and actually trying to live the practice rather than sort of live in my head in the theory.
	I think that would be helpful for all of us.
	And the RTR thing doesn't say you have to have an answer.
	In fact, RTR specifically says that if you don't have an answer...
	Then don't say it, right?
	Because what happens is I see when people are dealing with this kind of stuff, there's a little bit of deer in the headlights.
	People get kind of anxious.
	And then someone makes a joke and it goes thundering off in some other direction, right?
	Or somebody posts some other topic, if that makes sense.
	Right. I mean, it's like, oh no, anxiety.
	Ooh, gotta manage it.
	Bye-bye. And everybody sort of goes off in the anxiety management land of various sorts.
	And this is totally not kettle territory because I do it too.
	Right. And whereas if somebody were to say, holy crap, I really want to provide a solution, but I don't even know what to say.
	Is anyone else feeling that?
	I mean, doesn't that break down the walls of solitude that we grew up in?
	Absolutely. And I've noticed that on private calls with the people that I talk to most where I've gotten that deer in the headlights thing and it occurs to me sometimes to say, you know what, I don't know what to say.
	What do you want from me here?
	What are you trying to get? And it usually works beautifully.
	But putting that into practice more and sort of working on that more would be...
	You know, great. And if we're going to get into problem solving, that's something I'd love to talk about.
	Well, but the first RTR is with yourself, right?
	So the first thing that you have to know is your own feeling, right?
	What am I feeling in the moment when this person says something?
	What am I feeling? And, you know, we're all performance anxiety people, right?
	I mean, this is not just us.
	This is the human race, right? Yeah.
	I have to produce a response.
	I can't produce a response.
	Oh, my God, right? That kind of stuff.
	I don't know what to say, but I should know what to say.
	I need to know what to say. This person needs help, right?
	It becomes, you know, I want you to save this man's life using, you know, a plastic spoon, and you're not even a doctor.
	Yeah, you're sort of cutting out, but, you know, what comes up for me is, you know, the time pressure, you know?
	I have to respond. I have to respond now, you know?
	I... Don't let myself sort of sit back and think.
	Because obviously, you know, the guest is still going to be there in 30 seconds, right?
	I mean, if he's looking for good advice or for, you know, someone to actually listen to him, then he's going to be there.
	You know, the board post is going to be there.
	Right. It's like, I've lived with this problem for 30 years.
	Whether it's solved in 30 seconds or 90 seconds or two minutes is not a make or break question, right?
	Right. And I mean, you know, if you're going to take a while, you can always say, you know, excuse me for a moment, let me think, consider your situation.
	And I'm sure that, you know, they would rather have a well thought out two minute thing than a poorly thought out gallop off in the other direction, three second thing.
	Right, and if you talk about how you're feeling, the other person will probably talk about how they're feeling, which takes the projection off you, right?
	It takes the burden off you for how they're feeling.
	And if I ignore that feeling, that pressure that y'all are talking about to say something that's...
	Can anyone hear me?
	Yeah. Ah, okay.
	Yeah. Yesterday, this is Opine.
	Yesterday, the conversation that we had in the chat room was, it did become sort of a, like a fest of just people giving like their two cents, which was sort of worth maybe a fraction of a penny at the time because they were just trying to come up with Some sort of magical solution that would make my problem go away or make me feel at least that my problem will go away if I follow this step and this step.
	But I didn't really get...
	I mean, I did sort of feel like a deer in the headlights to a certain extent.
	But for the most part, I felt sort of more of a sense of...
	That, like, people are sort of expressing that they genuinely want, you know, are looking for a solution.
	They're only giving me what they could come up with right off the top of their head because they're assuming that sort of I'm on a, you know, it's urgent that I have this problem solved, like, right away.
	Well, and as you said, I mean, it's not even really a problem, right?
	Um... Uh, I did, I actually sort of thought about it a little bit.
	Sorry, no, I'm not saying that it's not a problem as a whole, but what you said last night, this is not to catch, I mean, just what you said last night was, it's not...
	That's really a problem, right?
	And certainly, if you're intelligent enough, and you certainly are, right, to follow these philosophical conversations and so on, then you're intelligent enough to know that the word roommates exists in the English language, that you can get a place for less than $1,000 a month and so on.
	I mean, easily intelligent, far more intelligent than you'd need to be just for that.
	Right. And nobody established that it was a problem for you at the time, and as you said at the time, it wasn't.
	I just wanted to get people off this insulting thing of saying, you know, two people can live in an apartment, right, as if you didn't know that.
	Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry, you completely cut out.
	You were all choppy.
	Can you try that again? Sure.
	No, never mind, it doesn't matter.
	Go on, let's just keep going. Okay.
	Well, yeah, at the time I was kind of, you know, very, this isn't like a problem that's taking precedence in my life right now.
	You know, I'm sort of managing with it.
	It's not really that big of a deal.
	I did kind of put it to the back burner for the most part and tried to basically play it off as if, you know, something that was completely under control.
	Right. Yeah. You expressed that it wasn't an issue for you, that you were struggling or you were working to finish school.
	You were working full time.
	And, you know, as I said, you know, you said – I said if your mom died, you wouldn't become homeless.
	And you said, no, I just go and live with relatives, right?
	So for you, you just don't have a desire to live outside of a family orbit.
	So it's not even a particular issue, right?
	Well, yeah. But I would say that the main reason why I have problems with that is because I've made several attempts over the years to...
	I've taken cracks at that with no success.
	In fact, the opposite of success.
	Mainly disasters with several different places that I've gone.
	And I've just had bad experience with it.
	You mean sort of with roommates and so on?
	Yeah. Right, right.
	Okay, I can understand that.
	I mean, roommates takes a kind of socialization skill that it doesn't sound like your upbringing left you highly tuned for, if that makes sense.
	Sort of. I would say more along the lines of I could sort of trust in my family's reaction because I know them very well.
	So it's sort of a consistency there which I can expect.
	When I move in with somebody that I don't know, it's sort of like a brand new thing.
	I have to rebuild This whole relationship with knowing what this person is all about and knowing what their limits are and how far they'll go on certain things.
	So it becomes...
	I sort of prefer the comfort of staying in a place where I can expect certain behavior opposed to a place where behavior just pops out out of nowhere as seemingly new coming from that person.
	So... Oh, I see.
	I see. Okay. Sorry.
	I don't want to take time up on this call about this issue, right?
	Although it certainly is an interesting issue.
	But the thing that you're trying to say to me, if I understand this correctly, is that other people act badly.
	Because when you say, well, I moved out and there were these disasters and my roommates did this and I have to...
	But you do things too, right?
	You can be off-putting, right?
	I mean, we all can be, right?
	For sure. Absolutely.
	Right. So, if it's all around other people doing stuff, and you're not an actor in the mess, so to speak, then of course you do gain some relief from anxiety, but you lose all control of the situation.
	But anyway, we can talk about that another time, and I'm sorry to cut you off, but I just want to sort of stay on this honesty thing, if that makes sense.
	Because, I mean, you're much more pleasant now, at least my experience has been, but...
	When you first came into the chat room, I was like, oh, I don't know about this fellow.
	Nobody chooses their names accidentally, if that makes sense.
	And you sure did opine quite a lot.
	And you didn't seem to have a lot of back and forth and all that kind of stuff.
	So you can be a little off-putting, or at least you were earlier in my experience.
	I certainly don't find that as much now.
	So you may be doing things that contribute to that in terms of roommates and so on.
	It's just a possibility.
	But we can talk about that another time if you like.
	Maybe call in on a Sunday show if you want to pursue it more.
	Sure. That sounds fun.
	Thank you for your input. I really do appreciate it.
	No problem. And is there anyone else who wanted to add in about their honesty sort of thing, where they think they are, where they feel that they are?
	Well, I have a question.
	My name is Jonathan. Hi, Jon.
	Long time caller, first time listener.
	My question is...
	Don't mess with my head, man. It's late.
	Sorry, I heard the joke.
	I always wanted to use it. Are you saying that one should lean towards being more open to an attack in a social environment than being more cautious and holding back on what you think?
	Sorry, I'm not sure quite what you want.
	Can you give me a scenario? I'm not sure what the rule is that you're talking about.
	Oh, well, earlier you said that honesty is not only what you say, but also what you hold back on saying.
	So, for instance, you know, sometimes one would not contribute into something because they may have to open up a certain part of them, and they don't exactly want to have that part jumped on by another person.
	So what I'm saying is that, like, are you saying that we should be open to everyone in the sense that we should be more open to, you know, showing our soft spots in the conversation?
	I mean, that's a big question.
	I'll just give you a couple of thoughts on that.
	First of all, my commitment to honesty is not going to be clawed down by petty or vindictive people, right?
	I mean, because otherwise, I wouldn't need a commitment to it at all, right?
	I don't have a commitment to breathing, right?
	Because it just happens automatically, right?
	So if it was not risky or dangerous or unpleasant or difficult or scary or anxiety-provoking or whatever, we wouldn't need a commitment to it, right?
	Now, if my honesty is good for good people and causes bad people to get upset and attack me, well, what are my choices?
	Right? I can either say, well, the good that I'm doing, and I'm going to use this global term, so I know you're talking about more specifically, and this I've had some considerable experience with, the good that I'm doing in the world by being honest and open about my thoughts and feelings is good for good people, and it pisses bad people off, to put it in a very simplistic way.
	And my choice is what?
	Do I say, okay, well, I'm annoying bad people, so as a moralist, I'll shut up.
	Well, no. Seth, I'm sorry, you're breaking up.
	Okay. So, um...
	My choice is to say, if I'm speaking the truth and it's doing good for good people, but it pisses off bad people, my choice as a moralist then would be to say something like, well, okay, I'm not going to speak the truth and help good people because I'm irritating bad people.
	Well, one of the inevitable consequences of being a moralist is you irritate bad people, right?
	I mean, there's no other way to be.
	To speak the truth is always going to irritate some bad people, so am I then going to say, well, I'm going to give up my commitment to the truth because bad people will be annoyed or will attack me or will say bad things?
	Well, that is surrendering that which is good to the sake of that which is petty and nasty and vindictive and creepy and evil and all that, right?
	Yeah, I mean, that does make some sense.
	Okay, some sense. What part of it doesn't make sense?
	And I'll try and clarify it.
	No, I'm just saying some sense, because if it made complete sense, I'd feel more like an idiot for not just realizing it without you having to say it.
	Oh, you Swiss'd me. Okay, sorry.
	I was just wondering why I had holes in my midsection.
	That's good to know. I got sprayed with the Swiss machine gun.
	I'm sorry. What does that mean?
	Oh, I'm sorry. We have this metaphor here that Switzerland is a neutral country and has been for hundreds and hundreds of years.
	I don't think they've had a war in 800 years, neutral in the First World War, Second World War.
	So when somebody starts using deliberately sort of neutral language or foggy language or whatever, we say that they're speaking Swiss.
	Sorry if you don't know that metaphor, but I thought you were wrong.
	I have now been enlightened to some degree.
	Focus on the earlier part that made sense, not the Swiss part.
	Maybe that will help. I'm sorry, I have some input on what you were just talking about, Steph.
	Sure. I was thinking that for me and probably for many other people here, perhaps Jonathan even, what happens to me about honesty is that when I'm thinking about being honest with someone, especially someone that I don't know, I'm afraid, right?
	I'm afraid I'm going to be attacked.
	I was wondering if you think that is perhaps because...
	What I wanted to say is that I think...
	In some part our unconscious is telling us that this is something that is dangerous for us, right?
	So my question is, do you think this is because at an earlier point in life we were attacked for this and this was really very dangerous but it may not be that That much of a danger right now, but we still feel it is.
	How does that sound?
	I think that you're entirely right.
	Children are very honest, right?
	They see a fat person walking along the street, they'll say, Mommy, why is that person fat?
	And mommy says, sure!
	It's bad! And of course, children have every truth that anybody could ever want about their families, but they're not allowed to speak at their attack for speaking.
	Children are very naturally truthful.
	That which we're afraid of is that which we are the most natural, because that's what had to be punished.
	We love to think, we love to reason, we're curious, we love to learn, and that all had to be punished, because so much of our society is built on lies, that the rational curiosity of children is a great enemy.
	So, yeah, I mean, we're naturally honest.
	We're naturally curious. We naturally want to speak our minds, right?
	I mean, if a baby is hungry, he doesn't sit there and say, hmm, I wonder if I should cry or whether that will be offensive to people.
	He's just like, wah, right?
	That's what he does. So, yeah, I think you're right.
	We're naturally honest. That honesty is attacked and punished.
	And that, of course, is how the world fundamentally, most fundamentally, remains enslaved.
	Right, that makes a lot of sense.
	So, your suggestion would be that it's not that we need to train ourselves to be honest, but we need to, let's say, untrain ourselves from thinking that if we are honest, we will get killed for it.
	Yes, yes. I mean, that which was originally our disaster is, in the future, our salvation, right?
	That which initially, honesty, which initially would cost us our parents, quote, affection, now is costing us love and intimacy, right?
	Right, that makes a lot of sense.
	Excellent. Okay, and was there anyone else who wanted to, I mean, if anybody wants to ask me, I don't want to sort of beg for attention, but somebody brought the question up.
	I'm certainly happy to talk about What I think I've been able to achieve, but I want to really focus on the listeners as much as possible.
	Well, if you're looking for a way to move the conversation from theory to practice and actually still put out podcasts, I'd be willing to Submit myself to that razor, as it were.
	Well, I appreciate that, but I don't think that there's any theory that we need to be honest at this point.
	I don't think that there's...
	I mean, you guys can all let me know if I've totally got my head up my armpit about all of this, but...
	I don't think that there's any theory that can help with the next step.
	No, I didn't say theory.
	Or podcast or conversation or anything like that.
	I mean, maybe you're right.
	That's just my thought, right?
	I could be totally wrong, but that's sort of my thought.
	Okay. Well, but tell me, what do other people...
	I'm just concerned that other people will say, oh, good, there's a podcast coming on about honesty, right?
	So I can put it off, right?
	Or, oh, that was part one of three.
	Interesting. Right.
	Well, I guess I'm just wondering how we move from theory to practice then.
	But everybody knows that, right?
	That's nothing that anybody can teach.
	That's just a commitment, right?
	You're right. You're right.
	I mean, that's just looking in the mirror, right?
	Looking in the mirror and saying, I have 20,000 days on this planet.
	I don't know. That's just a guess.
	I have no idea how many days we have, right?
	I have 20,000 days on this planet.
	10,000 of my way through them or 12,000 or whatever.
	How many more do I want to spend not being honest?
	How many days do I feel that I have to piss away?
	I mean, that's just a personal choice that we make in the face of mortality, knowing that we sure as hell can't tell any truth from the grave, right?
	You're right. You're absolutely right.
	And actually, now that I think about it, I've been sort of noticing that...
	I've just been noticing this pattern of whenever...
	Whenever the thought occurs to me, the word how kind of acts as a way of blocking the transition.
	Which I've also not helped in people, right?
	Because I'm the how guy, right?
	The how, the why, the whatever, right?
	So I will put out more theory, and so people have had a chance to keep that step off the cliff at bay because there's more entertaining, enjoyable theory and combos and so on, right?
	Right, that's a good point.
	Right, it's one thing to shine the way down the dark forest with a flashlight.
	It's another thing to shine it in your eyes so you can't see anymore, right?
	Right, or tell everybody to wait here while you go strapping lanterns up along the way, right?
	Right, right, right. This is Nietzsche's abyss, right?
	This is the chasm, right?
	This is the thing where, you know, the commitment wars with the history, right?
	The virtue wars with the scar tissue.
	The false self wars with the true self, right?
	This is the personal step off the cliff.
	I'm going to be honest.
	And you fall, and you know what?
	We fall and we go splat and we feel like we're dead.
	And it goes badly. Right?
	Right? Because all the demons of hell and all the false selves on the planet are screaming at us to get it wrong.
	To fuck it up. Right?
	To end up in that stalled place where everyone's talking about their, quote, feelings and nobody's connecting and everybody gets resentful.
	Right? And then we say, okay, I'm going to do it again.
	Splat! Oh, I pissed that person off.
	Jesus, I made a mess there.
	Okay? I'm gonna do it again, right?
	I mean, this is how people learn how to do the high jump, right?
	I mean, there's no... This is how people learn how to ski.
	Fuck, I fell down again, right?
	Get up and do it again.
	Yeah, you're right. You're right.
	That's just this bulldog kind of...
	This is my commitment.
	And I can absolutely give myself time off and I can say, I'm not going to do it this morning, but I'm going to be aware that I'm not going to do it.
	I'm going to get back on the horse this afternoon.
	This is how everything that is difficult is mastered.
	It's just by falling and hurting yourself again and again, right?
	But at least I don't know any other way to...
	Yeah, that was amazingly powerful to me, Steph.
	I mean, there are so many, you know, things I think in all our lives that, you know, we spend time talking about, you know, oh, I want to do X or oh, I want to be X. Well, you know, what's the reason you can't do it or be it today?
	You know, why wait?
	What are you waiting for?
	You know, is there some magical point in your life where you say, okay, today is the day I'm going to start being honest, right?
	And why, if it's not now, why is it not now?
	Right. Today is the day I'm going to wake up in Thailand, right?
	Well, you actually don't want to just wake up in Thailand, right?
	You want to plan your trip. It's usually not good if you wake up in Thailand.
	You're usually in the trunk of a car or something, right?
	But it's the planning and it's the execution and it's just that, you know, I have these values.
	I have these goals. I accept...
	Philosophical truths. I accept the RTR stuff.
	Or, you know, disagree with it and let's refine it if we're not right.
	But if I respect that all virtue rests on honesty, then we're not saying to everyone you can't be a good person until you become a neurosurgeon, right?
	We're saying in every moment of your life you have that choice.
	And you can commit to doing it, or you can commit to avoid it.
	But I don't even think that that choice is conscious for people, and that's sort of what I wanted to talk about tonight.
	Well, I can... I can say in many cases that choice has not been conscious for me, even as far as the recent future.
	I mean, the recent past.
	It isn't until after the fact that it becomes conscious in reality.
	Most of the cases for me, with a few notable exceptions, it always takes an after-the-fact evaluation to realize what went wrong and try again, right? Right, right, right.
	And this is as simple as, and I've done this kind of stuff, Christina and I have done this kind of stuff where we have unconscious things.
	You know, you have as your wallpaper on your desktop of your computer speak the truth.
	Right? Because it's that unconscious.
	We get into the chat window, someone posted a song, someone else is saying something funny, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	But speak the truth, right?
	Right, honesty is the first virtue.
	Yeah, we need that reminder on our computers, on our, you know, stick it up on your, write it in lipstick, on your bathroom mirror, whatever it is, right?
	I just feel really exasperated about all this.
	Just through this whole thing, I felt completely exasperated.
	Go on. That's just like frustrated to tears because I just can't...
	I can't even say because because I just don't know.
	I don't know why.
	You don't know why you're frustrated?
	Right. You mean because you went from 20% to 0.5% in the space of a few minutes?
	Yeah, I don't even...
	I'm frustrated with that too.
	That'd be frustrating, right? I have no idea.
	I thought I only failed the test, but it turns out I almost blew up the test, right?
	It's frustrating, right?
	Because for you also, right?
	I mean, when you have a gap between the goal and your achievement, you move to self-punishment, right?
	Yeah. I mean, that's what you do, right?
	Because that way you can diminish the punishment that is inevitably and imminently going to come from outside, right?
	Right. Right. So, when you have a gap between standards and your achievement, of course you're going to start flagellating yourself, right?
	How come I didn't get this? Oh, I'm so stupid, right?
	Can't believe this, right? How am I still not getting it after so long?
	God, I'm an idiot. All that stuff, right?
	It's pretty much automatic.
	Right, right.
	And that's just history, right?
	You punch, you're like the, you ever see the movie Fight Club?
	You faded out.
	Did you ever see the movie Fight Club?
	Yes. Yeah, so you know when Ed Norton is in his boss's office and he starts punching himself?
	Right. Right? That's imperfection in Planet Nate, right?
	Right. And that's just your history.
	You're trying to punch yourself because you have greater control over your own attacks than when somebody else attacks you, right?
	And also, if you didn't self-flagellate when you didn't perform to somebody else's satisfaction, then you would simply get punished all the more, right?
	So this is a way of reducing...
	This is the least punishment that you could have gotten when you were a kid, is by cursing at yourself, right?
	Right. So, you just have to get to those core beliefs and start to undo them, right?
	You just have to start looking inward and saying, you know, fuck off, right?
	Fuck off, Mr. Critic.
	You know, put up or shut up.
	You know, because whoever's criticizing you inside, Nate, they didn't see it either.
	So who the hell are they to criticize, right?
	They weren't flashing up a little screensaver on your eyeballs tonight saying, be more honest, be more honest, you're only at 0.5%, right?
	So they missed it too. So tell them to fuck off.
	Yeah, that's right. I guess that explains part of why I'm exasperated, I guess.
	passive-aggressive with the standards, right?
	Because then you're like, well, nobody wants to do anything because they're afraid of being punished or beaten up, right?
	Right.
	So when you flagellate, what you do is you set yourself up for further passive-aggressive resistance of the rules, right?
	So now it's going to be like, oh, fuck, I've got to be honest because otherwise I'm going to think I'm stupid, right?
	Right.
	Right. So then you won't want to be honest, and you'll get all passive-aggressive about that, which will cause you to miss the goal, which will put you right back to feeling stupid, which will make you want to miss the goal again, right?
	You see how this cycle goes, right?
	Exactly. You know, just, this is, look, this is hard stuff, right?
	This is, we are taking on a standard here that I don't know about.
	I don't know of any other standard that's out there with this kind of, so we're trying to, you know, we're going further.
	There are no maps out here, right?
	So if this is stupid, I don't know where everyone else is down at base camp.
	I don't even know what your measure stick is.
	If we're still at the bottom of the ocean and we're three miles above Everest, I don't know where we go in terms of yardsticks.
	I'm catching most of that.
	Well, I'm just saying you recalibrate your standards, right?
	Right. Right.
	Do something on Earth, I guess.
	Yeah, yeah. I mean, but it's up to you, right?
	I mean, you can do the cycle if you want.
	I don't think it's a lot of fun, but you'll do it until you get sick of it, right?
	Right. And if you start to, you know, really get sick of it in that sense, then I think that will give you the motivation to go and dig out that critic, right?
	Because you cower before the critic, right?
	And you kind of need to stand up to him, right?
	Cower before who? The critic.
	Your inner critic, right? Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah. Well, you've got to stand up to him, right?
	You've got to grow a pair with regards to this guy and just stand up to him and say, oh yeah, okay, well, where were you, right?
	If I missed this test, you were then where we were studying too, so why the hell didn't you, you know, who were you to tell me, blah, blah, blah, right?
	I'm only, is everybody else getting that, or?
	People keep getting dropped.
	I'm not getting it. I'm sorry?
	Yeah. Yeah, I said I wasn't getting that either, Nate.
	Yeah, well, we can stop the call for tonight because we've been going for almost two hours.
	But I just wanted to sort of bring that up as a topic, right?
	That we've got to start...
	We don't have to, right?
	We can continue to do all of this, but then we're just another community, right?
	There's nothing special. There's no reason for it to be here rather than some gardening community.
	I'd like to offer one possible implementation tip beside the post-it note.
	Blame Nate? That should help.
	110%. If anyone at all even gets the sense that I'm not being honest, just say it.
	Yeah, you can whisper that stuff.
	It doesn't have to be confrontational or whatever.
	Just say it to me and I'll stop myself short and try and figure out what's going on.
	Could I ask for the same thing?
	I think that's a wonderful idea, Greg.
	I would appreciate if people would do that to me as well.
	If anybody notices me not being honest, I want you to tell Charlotte that she's being dishonest.
	I'll be your whipping boy, Steph.
	But no, I think, you know, if we can get into the habit of not only...
	Because, I mean, it's slightly disconcerting.
	It's slightly anxiety-provoking to call someone on their not being honest, right?
	But, you know...
	Doing that shows not only honesty with the other person, but it also shows honesty with yourself.
	Because I think if you start catching other people, you're going to start catching yourself as well.
	I have a question.
	Why is calling someone on them potentially being dishonest, why does it have to be an opt-in thing?
	Why isn't that an opt-out thing?
	Well, sorry, let me interrupt this with a more fundamental question, right?
	If you ask people to tell you if you're being dishonest, you're automatically assuming that they're not going to be honest, right?
	I guess. I mean, sometimes I find that if someone calls me on being dishonest, I'll sometimes say, yeah, I guess you're right.
	So, I mean, sometimes it works.
	Sorry, I didn't mean you in particular.
	I meant back to Greg's question, right?
	No, and that's an excellent point.
	Because if they experience you, and I'm just going to pound this nail in one more, sorry.
	If I experience you, Greg, as being dishonest, and I'm not telling you, then I'm already not being honest either, right?
	No, that's absolutely correct.
	But then if I say, oh, well, Greg told me that he wanted me to tell him, so I guess I will, right?
	Then you're asking someone to do something that you're not doing, which is to remember a standard and apply it, right?
	Right. Right.
	You're right. You're absolutely right about that.
	Now, that doesn't mean that if you see someone acting dishonestly and you can tell them and so on, right?
	I mean, I think that's great. We as a community need to kind of foster this weird new thing that we're trying to do, right, about honesty.
	Well, and I was just coming at it from the standpoint of, like you were saying, like the phrase you used earlier, watching each other's backs, right?
	Yes, for sure. For sure.
	But... Yeah, you know what?
	You're totally right. I'm not going to say any more.
	You're absolutely right. I'm not going to try to get my way out of that one.
	Sorry, go ahead. And because it is so often an unconscious thing, I think it'll take a little bit of a boost, especially in the beginning, to bring it back up to the level of consciousness.
	That's just my opinion, though.
	Yeah, and there are a few mechanical things you can do, right?
	You know, like have that little thing which says, speak the truth, and literally for a week or two, before you type something in the chat window, look at that, you know, take a deep breath, count to ten, figure out how you're feeling, just that.
	You'll be amazed at what comes out of you.
	Absolutely. All right.
	Was there anything else that anybody wanted to add to this?
	Just that thank you all for the call.
	I think it was great, very helpful.
	Yeah, thank you. Okay, well, I will certainly not enjoy editing this, but I will.
	I certainly do appreciate everyone dropping by tonight.
	And have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful evening.
	Good night, folks. Good night.
	Bye, everyone.

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