All Episodes
Previous Next
July 6, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:45:36
1101 Sunday Call In Show July 6 2008

Rage against a therapist, paternal mythology and traveling the world!

| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us.
This is the Free Domain Radio Sunday Gab Fest.
It is just after 4 p.m.
Eastern Standard Time, July the 6th, 2008.
Just a reminder that the fabulous book of abstract entertainment, No Responsibility Upon You to Send It Out or Change the World, is out.
That would be the book, Practical Anarchy.
Which you can get a hold of by going to freedomainradio.com forward slash free.
It is in two parts, which is the audiobook.
And boy, oh boy, not only is the sound quality in this one just fantastic.
I hit the sweet spot, but you get some fabulous cello playing from Carl von Bennionmeister, which eases you into the individual rants.
It's a little bit of class in what is essentially an anarchist shriek fest.
So I hope that you will pick up the book.
I'm sure that you will enjoy it.
Remember, no responsibility to do anything that you don't feel like in terms of handing it about.
You can just listen to it as a piece of abstract entertainment fluff.
I think that it merits that even because it's pretty entertaining, I think, as well.
So I hope that you will pick that up.
And if you could sign up for subscriptions at freedomainradio.com forward slash donate dot html or send some cash.
That would be fantastic. We've had, I guess, in the last couple of days, over 800 copies of Practical Anarchy downloaded.
And the other one is cooking away.
It's about 400 books a day just in the two Anarchy series are being downloaded, which I think is very good.
And thanks to those, again, who gave feedback on the drafts.
I really appreciate that. And that's it for me.
We had a long chat last night about some of the block channels of communication in the community, which I will release as a podcast and do a subsequent one-on-one or I guess single round follow-up.
But I just wanted to mention that.
Thanks again for those in particular, Asher, who were participating in that call and gave some excellent feedback on how to make sure communication stays open in the community as much as possible.
And that was really an enjoyable and wonderful call.
So thank you again. To those who just decided to join in the spontaneous talkfest, that was most excellent.
Other than that, no particularly exciting news at FDR. Just chugging along.
This week I will be putting out a video.
religion has something to do with anti-statism as a whole.
And I think that should spark some interesting debate.
And I'm going to be getting more back to just regular old podcasting.
I have my list of podcast topics has now grown over 40, which usually indicates that there's a tad of a backlog.
I've also been doing a book review on a book called The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder by Vincent Bugliosi, who is a fine author and, as far as I understand it, a fairly enjoyable pasta dish so So that is an interesting book, and I will give you some of the arguments and what I think the book means as a whole.
He gets a good chunk of stuff right, in my opinion, and an enormous amount of stuff wrong.
He is gripped by Nostalgia for the America that was in the past, back when all men were honest, all women were beautiful and virtuous, and all children obeyed their wonderful parents.
So he's got that honey oat bran muffin backwards glance, lots of music kind of flashback montage to a past that never was, as in, George Bush lied to get America into war.
That has never happened before in history, and of course that's all complete nonsense.
But anyway, it's an interesting book and he's got an interesting thesis, which is that any United States prosecutor in any state which has supplied citizens to die in Iraq...
Can bring charges of murder against George Bush once he leaves office and under existing laws can prosecute him as a private citizen for creating a situation which he knew would result in the death of someone.
It's interesting. I mean, I'm quite interested in some of the legal details because, I mean, the law is just a fascinating thing.
And some of this stuff will also, of course, have to be worked out in a stateless society.
But one example that he gives, which is interesting about...
So if you create a circumstance that you know is going to result in the death of someone, you are actually responsible, not the agent that causes the death.
And so, for instance, they have an example of a robber who comes in with a gun to rob a store.
And in the commission of that crime, on his way out, he says to the guy, you know, don't tell anyone who I am.
He shot into the roof, not intending to hurt the victim at all, but the bullet glanced off the roof off two other things, went into the victim's skull and killed him, and he was charged with first-degree murder.
Even though he had no particular intent at the moment to hurt that person, he created a situation, discharging a gun in the commission of a crime that is highly volatile and immediately goes to first-degree murder.
In another example, a robber was in a store.
The store owner grabbed a gun to defend the cash register, shot at the robber, missed the robber, hit a customer, killed the customer.
It was the robber who was charged with the first-degree murder because it was the robber who created the circumstance which resulted in someone's death.
The store owner was not culpable at all.
And that is a very interesting legal argument, and I'll be going into a little bit more detail in the book review.
But it's very interesting because, of course, his argument is that George Bush knowingly committed perjury or lied about the causes for war because the only defense that George Bush could have for this situation would be self-defense, defense of the realm and so on.
And since he lied about it, he knew that it was not self-defense and therefore he's criminally responsible for the 4,000 deaths.
Now, of course, you'd say, well, either the 100,000, the 160,000, the 500,000 or the 1.2 million depends on which source you go to in terms of the estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths.
And, of course, he would be criminally responsible for those as well, but a U.S. prosecutor cannot pursue George Bush for the deaths of Iraqi civilians only for the deaths of Americans because of jurisdiction.
So – So anyway, it's an interesting book.
If you get a chance to read it or to listen to it, a lot of it is stuff we've all heard before, you know, the Yellow Cake incident, the Downing Street memo, and so on.
But when it's viewed in a legal light, it's very interesting.
And of course it is further proof to the thesis that is in Practical Anarchy, which is that if we say that we need a state because evil people will do more evil if they do not face repercussions for their actions, then this is a pure example of how much evil can be done because people then do not then this is a pure example of how much evil can be done because people then
In fact, George Bush not only will not go to prison for the deaths of 4,000 Americans more than died in 9-11, but will in fact get a pension and a speaking tour and I'm sure a presidential library.
So, It is just another example of how ridiculous the state is becoming and how nobody believes in the ethics of the government anymore.
Because they'll pursue you to the ends of the goddamn earth, these prosecutors, should you steal $500 or even get a traffic ticket.
But when it comes to a mass murderer such as George Bush, nobody lifts a finger, of course.
This is just how ridiculous and silly it's becoming.
And everyone gets this at some level unconsciously, of course.
So it's just more of a...
more of an argument for us to bring to bear so you know because people say well there'll be marauding gangs in anarchy it's like what the hell do you think we have now a bunch of criminals so anyway just wanted to mention that it's a good book and I'm glad to be getting back on reading after doing this white man's burden this book on foreign policy And I just did not want to touch another theoretical book for quite some time because that book was so vile.
I'm still summoning the strength to do a book review of it because that will just be an unbelievable spittlefest.
The book is so highly offensive on every level and frankly genocidal that it's hard to get through, to stomach a review of that, particularly after working so hard on such a big book like Practical Anarchy, but we will get to it.
So that's it for my introduction.
I'm more than happy and open and willing and ready to take questions, comments, rank, praise, bitter criticism, or anything else that your heart desires.
Hey, Steph. Hey.
My question has a little bit of a backstory.
So, Rich and I found a therapist in Atlanta, a new therapist, to do individual counseling and couples counseling.
And we had an intake with her last week, which...
I thought overall was pretty positive.
I thought she was perceptive and she's an expert in cognitive behavioral therapy.
But she said a few things which kind of made me anxious.
We told her a little bit about our histories and she said something like...
What I counsel, as far as people and their parents and their history is concerned, is to forgive and forget.
They did the best they could and that kind of thing.
I told her that I had a problem with that.
And that I didn't believe that they did the best they could.
And I had a lot of anger about it.
And she said, well, your anger is probably justified and we can talk about all that stuff.
Which, you know, is just a contradiction because how could my anger be justified if they did the best they could?
But her view seemed to be like she didn't want people to keep focused on their anger about their history and just...
You know, blame their parents for everything but to learn from the experience and of course I agree with that.
But I felt a little anxious about it and I talked to some people about it the other night and they were saying, you know, just go in there and be as honest as possible and That's the way you can learn whether it's a good therapist or not.
If it's a good therapist, then you'll get started on the issues right away.
If it's bad, then you'll know sooner.
So that makes sense. But today, when I was thinking about it, I was thinking about how I'd bring up my concern and I just got enraged and I can't even think about it without getting so angry.
I can't even talk about it.
Rich was trying to talk to me about how I would answer the question of why don't you think they did the best they could and I just couldn't.
Why don't you think they did the best they could and I just couldn't.
What is that? I think we're getting feedback.
Sorry, we're getting feedback.
But yeah, I couldn't even answer that without letting off a string of swear words.
And I was just getting so angry talking about it, I couldn't even continue the conversation, even though Rich was not doing anything, obviously.
He was just asking questions.
But I had to take some time to cool down.
And I don't know, I'm just...
Really scared because I don't know how to bring it up without completely blowing up at her.
What is the feelings of anger?
or tell me what's behind them, what's going on, what's bringing them up?
It's basically the whole suggestion that, well, first of all, that obviously they did the best they could, which would just make my actions totally unjustified.
And, you know, it's like being angry at a retarded person for not speaking five languages.
And I don't know, that just infuriates me.
And the idea that...
Of sort of equating what I've done with people who just blame their parents for all of their issues and just are kind of addicted to fighting with their parents and that kind of thing.
It just infuriates me and I can't...
I can't even think about bringing that up in a reasonable way.
Why would you need to bring it up in a reasonable way?
Because I'm just, like, afraid of, like, shouting at her or something, and that would totally discredit me, I mean...
Sorry, it certainly would not discredit you with a good therapist.
I mean, obviously you don't want to be abusive, I mean, that would discredit you, but that's not where you're coming from, right?
Is that this idea that you are being unjust because they were limited in their capacities...
That creates in you a great deal of anger, and that is exactly what a good therapist would welcome, if I understand therapy correctly.
Right. But the difference is, do you feel that the therapist, through her perspective, is re-victimizing you?
Yeah, I think that's part of it.
That's certainly the sense that I'm getting, but go on.
Well, it's just like, I mean, I feel like I'm in such a vulnerable situation because before I was having trouble getting through to my anger and if I have somebody who's basically saying that my anger is not justified, then I'm in a situation where I'm just arguing again and I'm not actually dealing with the feelings in my experience.
Right. And clearly, the therapist is not the primary issue, right?
So where else in your history has your anger been considered immature or petty or grudgy or resentful or not valid fundamentally?
Pretty much all of it.
I mean, I can't really think of a time when...
My anger towards anybody in my family was considered a good thing.
And what are you feeling now?
Because I'm just getting a sense that you're feeling quite a lot at the moment.
Um... I don't know.
I feel kind of...
afraid.
Um... I don't know.
God, I feel like there's so much that wants to come out, but it's really scaring me.
And what is your scenario about what happens if it comes out?
I mean, do you feel...
Sorry, I won't put any words in your mouth, but what is your disaster scenario if your emotions come out?
That I'll be abusive towards people who just have absolutely nothing to do with why I'm so angry and...
I don't know. Basically that, that I'm going to unjustly be attacking other people or something.
Right. So it's if I am in touch with my feelings, I'm a bad person, right?
I will be a bad person.
I'll do bad things. Right.
And I'm sure you're aware that that is the complete opposite of the truth, right?
Right. Yeah, as an idea, I understand that's the complete opposite of the truth, but when it comes to this anger I have, or this temper, I guess, it just feels like something I can't control.
Right, right.
But of course, in reality, it is the people who are manipulating, controlling, avoiding their feelings, who end up doing bad things, right?
Right. Right. So it certainly feels counterintuitive because when our parents were abusive or neglectful, but particularly when they were sort of angry and abusive, we experienced them as being in the throes of a kind of strong feeling, right? Right.
I mean, to take a silly example, but not that silly, when we see Hitler giving his speeches, right, where he looks like he's just about to bite the head of a chicken, right, in some heavy metal kind of way, that looks like a lot of passion, right? Right.
And certainly when we see people in fist fights, you know, they seem to have a heightened kind of emotionality, right?
Right. So it is very common for us to associate emotions with destruction, right?
Like if I get this angry, then I will be destructive or abusive because when my parents got angry, they were destructive or abusive or whatever, right?
Right. Right.
Right. And there are – I mean there are organic feelings which I always believe are very helpful and healthy though they can be alarming in their intensity.
And there are then the feelings which are sort of more petty and manipulative and I don't know exactly what kind of word to use for them exactly but it's sort of like if somebody is late to get to the airport and the traffic is bad, they get really angry, right?
Right. Right.
Ah, you bastards.
I'm going to miss my flight. What the hell are you all doing here?
Why doesn't the government fix these roads?
I'm a taxpayer. Like, it's all this kind of stuff, right?
Right. Well, that is just mythology.
And that person is, in fact, avoiding the feeling.
And the feeling is shame and guilt at having left it so late, right?
Right. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Right.
So that kind of frightening situation, if he's got kids in the car or whatever and daddy's yelling at the traffic, that's scary, right?
That kind of situation arises because someone is avoiding his feelings, right?
Yeah. And so the kind of abuse that we experience happens because...
People are projecting, they're defending, they're minimizing, they're bypassing, they're attempting to avoid their basic feelings.
That's where abuse comes from.
It comes from an avoidance of true feelings.
Right. So, for you, I don't feel that your reaction to what the therapist said is coming out of an avoidance of your true feelings.
Right. And therefore, my suggestion or strong argument would be you cannot be abusive.
In fact, if you avoid these strong feelings, you will do something negative.
Right. You'll avoid the therapist and take it out on Rich or you'll go and be angry at the therapist rather than dealing with your own feelings, which obviously don't come from the therapist deep down, right?
She made a comment which, let's say, and I think a good case could be made for it, let's say is ill-informed and unsympathetic and she might be the wrong therapist for you.
She might be, right? We don't know.
I mean, I would think that if your reaction is this strong, that it's important, right?
To talk to your therapist about it, in my opinion, right?
And if she says, well, you're petty and immature, which she won't, right?
But let's say she did, right?
Then what would happen is you would be simply re-experiencing the pain that your parents inflicted on you when they mocked you or derided your strong feelings, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Well, why?
Well, because if you had processed the feelings of shame and anger and the things that you're feeling about this therapist's comment, then the therapist's comment wouldn't bother you that much, right?
*Booing* Right. Like, if you don't have appendicitis, when the doctor pokes your middle, you don't go, ow, right?
Right. I mean, there is a very fundamental logical problem with what your therapist said, right?
Which is that she is about getting people to improve their behavior, right?
Right. And so if her entire career, her professional life is dedicated...
their behavior then it's logically impossible for her to say about your parents they did the best they could because then she would also have to say to you well you're doing the best you could in which case she wouldn't say your parents did the best they could because she's attempting to get you to change your thoughts and your behavior which indicates that there is a state that you could improve to in her opinion, right?
Right, and she obviously therapy wouldn't have any purpose Right, so it's to say that people could not have improved their behavior and that that is universal, that we should forgive and forget.
And then to say that you, Colleen, should improve your behavior is a total foo situation, right?
Right. There's a problem with this family and it's you, right?
Exactly. The child is the one who has to adapt to the evil of the parents.
Because the child's behavior should improve.
That's what we always hear. But the parents never say, and my behavior should improve.
Or they never say, my behavior should improve and as a consequence your behavior will improve.
Because you are a helpless reactor in this family being the child, right?
Right. And you've heard this before, right?
This forgive and forget thing, right?
Oh yeah.
And from who have you heard it?
I'd say mostly my mom.
And in what context did she say this?
Well, usually like if I had some kind of dispute with somebody at school, like a teacher or, you know, or if like a teacher or, you know, or if it was my brother or something like that.
And she'd say it sometimes to defend my father as well.
And what was your basic reaction to why did you believe she was taking this approach?
Because it would have been an inconvenience for her to actually get involved in the problem.
Yeah.
Yeah, it would have been work for her to figure out what was actually going on and who was right.
Now, did she also...
Did your mother... And this is a rhetorical question, right?
But I just ask it for clarity's sake on both her sides.
When you did something wrong, did your mother also forgive and forget you?
Your actions?
I mean, and when I say wrong, I mean wrong according to whatever definition they had floating around.
Oh, absolutely not.
Right, so when it comes to attacking you, an Old Testament biblical kind of vengeance, a pox on your house and so on, is the appropriate response.
But when it comes time to defending you, then you should forgive or forget, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Right. Right.
So, that is such an unbelievably maddening situation, right?
Right. And I have so much, I can't, like, it's so weird because I can't feel that intense of anger about that situation, but I feel it about, you know, what the therapist said.
Right. And why do you think that is?
I don't know. I mean, obviously, I understand that if I haven't processed something that it's gonna come up in other ways, but I don't know why I'm having such a hard time processing it.
Well, There's a couple of possibilities, and we can start with one.
What is your relationship not to giving forgiveness about things in the past, but to people who wrong you in the present?
Rich, say.
Sorry?
Sorry?
I'm sorry, I didn't get that.
Oh, sure. What happens...
What do you do or how do you act or react when Rich does something that upsets or offends you?
Um... Generally, I will say that that hurt me or something like that.
I mean, I... In the relationship, it certainly hasn't always been that way.
I've been trying to bring my feelings more into it.
Let me ask you a slightly more technical question.
Do old fights come up again in your relationship?
No. Okay, so when you get closure, you get closure and you can talk about them or bring them up, but there's not that same level of emotional intensity?
Right. And Rich, would you agree with that?
Yeah, I agree. Okay, great.
Okay, so it's not because you don't have a legitimate capacity to forgive in a relationship.
That's not the issue, right?
Right. Right. Rich, what about your relationship to forgiving people who have done you wrong?
If they apologize or make restitution, do you hold grudges or do you let that stuff go when it feels appropriate or how does that work for you?
My initial reaction, I'm having a little trouble thinking about it.
My initial reaction is that I'm a bit of a grudge holder.
A bit of a grudge holder?
Yeah. Okay, can you give me an example?
Well, that's just my initial reaction.
I'm trying to think of specifics and I'm having trouble with it.
Well, what about some of your older customers in your business?
You got resentful towards them for work that you had agreed to do voluntarily, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah, I sure did.
And, yeah, I held that resentment for quite a while.
And when...
When Colleen does something that is hurtful or upsetting to you, what is your response?
I kind of lock up.
Yeah, I lock up.
I get tense. And what is your relationship to Colleen's anger?
Fear followed by anger back.
First I feel scared and then I feel anger towards her.
And what was your experience of Colleen talking about the anger that arose within her after this therapist appointment?
Oh, very nervous. I was nervous and I told her how I felt and asked her how she felt.
She was angry and it was kind of hard to...
I asked her questions and it just seemed to make her angrier.
Well, because you feel that her anger is dangerous, right?
I know it's not, but I feel that.
Yeah, I mean, it definitely evokes the feelings of the past when she gets angry.
And you're Simon the Boxering all over here, right?
Because the way that you're interacting with Colleen when she's angry, as you say, makes her angrier, right?
Yeah, yeah. And her anger then is not so much at the therapist anymore, right?
Yeah. I didn't think, I didn't have, in this conversation, my anger didn't seem like it was towards Rich.
Oh, but Rich, you experienced it that way, but Colleen, you didn't, is that right?
No, I didn't. I did a little bit.
I mean, she kept telling me that she was angry at the therapist, but I kept thinking maybe I'm doing something that's making her angry.
Making her angrier, I should say.
I already knew she was angry at the therapist, but when she became angrier, I thought it was me that was creating that.
Okay, so you feel nervous around Colleen's temper, right?
Yes. And I don't mean temper in any negative way.
I'm just using the word, right?
It's just anger. It's actually healthy, right?
So, Colleen, you may be, in fact, I would guarantee that you are, picking up on Richard's fear that you're about to become.
Crazy, abusive woman, right?
Right. Right, and we have talked about that.
Like, he... Definitely, whenever I'm angry, kind of associates female anger with being wrong, so...
With being wrong?
What do you mean? Well, being dangerous.
Being abusive? Right.
Or have the potential to become that.
Well, no, he's not potential land, right?
Because he gets nervous, right?
Right. It's going to become that.
It's going to become that, and if I understand the way that this pattern would roll out in general, it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Well, Cully never gets abusive or anything like women in my past were, but she does become angrier.
Right, and it ends up being a problem in your relationship rather than something outside the relationship made me angry, is that right?
Yeah, it happens, definitely.
Right. So, Rich, you have a strategy called defuse the bomb, right?
Yeah, that's accurate.
Which is, I'll even take the bullet myself, right?
Rather than have it...
Like, I'll manage the descent rather than just fall randomly, right?
Yeah. Okay, okay.
And that's a history, of course, of female temper and abuse and so on within your family, right?
Yes. Right.
And of course, I mean, ideally you understand that it's completely unjust to make Colleen pay for that, right?
Oh, of course.
Right. Okay.
Okay. It is one of the issues that we brought up with our new therapist.
Like, that's one of the key issues.
Right. That's something that I would like to work on.
Well, I mean, Rich, you know, with all due respect and affection, you definitely do tiptoe around her from time to time, right?
Yes, I do.
Because we talked about that the Sunday night of the barbecue, right, in terms of like, okay, let's just go to Atlanta and cross our fingers, right?
Yep, yep. Okay.
All right. So it's not so much, Colleen, I mean, the issue is that for sure there were people in your past who viewed your anger as destructive and problematic, right?
Which was just projection on their part because it was in fact their anger, right, that that was problematic and destructive, right?
Right. But the person that you chose to be with, right, this would be you, Rich, the person that you chose to be with has a similar response to your temper, right?
And again, I'm not saying identical or anything like that, but there are some similarities, however mild, right?
Um... I don't quite get that, like...
Well, you said, sorry, you said that your family would treat your temper as an unjust and dangerous and bad thing, right?
And Rich to, again, not to put him in the same category by any stretch, but there are a few similarities at some level in that he experiences your temper through the lens of his mother as bad and dangerous and...
Right? Right? At least potentially unjust, right?
It puts him into fight-or-flight mechanism, if that makes sense.
And then, if you bring this to your therapist as an issue...
I would like to be more free to experience my feelings without my boyfriend feeling like they could go awry, if that makes sense.
And then your therapist says, as you see it, and I think with some reason, your therapist says, oh, Colleen, but your feelings are unjust and abusive.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, isn't that going to be kind of like, right?
Yeah, exactly. Like it's just feeling totally trapped.
Yes. Yeah, like I am a growing bull in a very small china shop, right?
And I have to move, but I can't knock anything over, right?
Right. And for you, Colleen, it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Because your therapist implies, to whatever degree we can accept that, but implies that your temper is unjust and abusive, right?
Right. And then you get so angry that you're afraid that your temper is...
Unjust and abusive.
Right. Right. So she says, your temper is irrational and has to be managed because it's resentful and destructive.
And you're like, oh shit, I can't get angry.
I have to manage my own feelings because I'm Justin.
Right. And the cure, as always for me, is three little letters called RTR, which is I am feeling this way.
I wonder why, right?
It's not dangerous. I'm not going to go crazy.
This idea, right, I don't know if you've read any of Practical Anarchy, but in the book, there's this thing where I talk about the argument from apocalypse.
You know, if we get rid of the government, babies will eat babies, you know, dogs and cats living in sin, that kind of stuff, right?
Right. Well, you have an argument from apocalypse, and when you get used to looking for this argument, you'll see it everywhere, right?
But you have an argument from apocalypse with regards to your own temper, right?
That's true. If I give in to my temper, I will wake with the severed heads of strangers in a bag by my bed, right?
Right, right. And that's just a scare story to keep you from...
Right?
Anger equals insanity equals abuse is an argument from Apocalypse that abusers tell us, right?
Yes. And we know that it's an argument from Apocalypse that is completely false...
Because if our abusers are so good at managing anger and being productive and positive with their anger, then they would not be abusers, right?
Right. So clearly the people who abused us have no clue what it means to have a healthy relationship with anger, right?
Because otherwise they wouldn't have abused us.
Right. So, whatever they say to us about our anger is the complete opposite of the truth, right?
Right. Whatever a conman, a counterfeiter, tells you about currency is the complete opposite of the truth.
That which he says is worthwhile, currency is his counterfeit.
That which he tells you is worthless and you should give it to him for disposal is the real deal, right?
Right. So whatever your parents told you about your temper is the exact opposite of the truth and we know that because they were abusive and therefore they had the exact opposite of a healthy approach to temper, right?
Right. And this is the upside down blackest white world that is out the matrix of mythology, right?
Because you've got a story about your temper, right?
That it's like a wild beast in a bag that you have to carry from room to room and not get clawed and bitten, right?
Yes. But of course, this was a story that was told to you by people whose temper actually was that, right?
Right. Your abuser said, Colleen, your temper is really dangerous.
Bam, bam, bam, right?
Right. It's madness, right?
Yeah. It's like the arsonist standing up from yet another blaze saying, you don't know how to handle fire.
That's true. And in the same way that your mother preached forgiveness because she did not want to deal with your legitimate temper because that would have...
It caused her to actually have to recognize who you were, recognize the injustice of the actions that have been committed against you, and so on.
What does your gut tell you about why your therapist is saying what she is saying?
I don't know.
I have an answer, but for some reason I don't want to say it.
Can you say it backwards? We can always play it backwards.
Mime it. Do it.
Hand puppets! Sorry, go on.
Is there a Colleen 2 that I could talk to?
I don't know. Rich, does she often tease you in this manner?
Yes. Well...
I don't know what I would think, and I don't know if it's just cynical me, is like somehow healthy anger would be...
I don't know why it's so hard to say it.
Some...
Okay, the thoughts that I had were like that she...
Healthy anger is somehow inconvenient to her in her life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
So if you get angry at your...
Parents. And female anger in this world, right, because we're all raised by women for the most part, right?
Female anger in this world is a very scary thing for a lot of people.
But... If she had been told this about anger, then she will tell you this about anger, right?
And she will remind you of your mother, right?
Right. Now, we have a choice when these kinds of things occur, right?
So what we do is we say either...
Yes, she's like my mother.
And there are lots of not-well therapists out there.
No question. Christine and I wrote a whole book about that, which we will release someday, right?
But there are not-well therapists out there, and quite a few of them.
So, if you are reminded of your mother by this therapist, then you can either say...
I am unjustly projecting my history with my mother on this person for no good reason whatsoever.
Right? Right.
Or I can say I was horribly burned as a child.
"Child, I have a body memory of being burned, and this woman is made of fire." Right.
Which do you think I suggest?
Which says number one?
I don't...
I want to say number two, but...
But Rich won't put out if you do, is that right?
Don't worry, he'll put out, he's a guy.
but sorry go on that's right doesn't work by marriage either but sorry go on I want to say it's the second one but it's like it seems too unreasonable yeah Okay. Why is it unreasonable?
Because how do I know that?
Well, part of you believes it for sure, right?
Part of you says, danger, danger, danger, right?
Right. So part of you already believes it, right?
Right. That this is toxic.
Dangerous. Right?
Yes. That you don't bring your greatest wound to someone who will re-inflict that wound upon you, right?
Right. Right.
I mean, you don't say, Doctor, it hurts right here in my middle and he's going to spend the next six months poking you in the middle, right?
That's actually going to make you worse, not better, right?
Right. What do you think your emotions are trying to do in this situation?
Are they trying to keep you away from someone who can really help you?
or are they trying to keep you away from somebody who will harm you?
I'd say keep me away from somebody who would harm me.
Well, and I would say that assuming that your involvement in philosophy has been somewhat beneficial to you, I don't think that I've provoked these kinds of – sorry, there's somebody moving their mic around like crazy.
It's really distracting. If your relationship with philosophy has been mostly beneficial, if not entirely, then – And so, if your relationship with me has been beneficial to you and to Rich, then it would seem to me that if it was option number one, that anytime somebody gives you advice or suggestions, you rail against it because you were so traumatized that you basically shoot at anything that moves, right?
Without aim, without, right?
This would have shown up at FDR already, right?
Right. Right. So the thesis that you attack people who can genuinely help you would be rejected, and also because you refuse that mud wrestle with Christina, right? Sorry, just kidding.
But you have rejected, sorry, you have not rejected this conversation, though it has been very helpful, right?
Right. So you don't attack people who bring you things that are useful and helpful to you.
Right. So, number one is not a valid thesis, right?
True. Your emotions are not like a wounded animal lashing out at someone who's actually trying to give you some stitches, right?
Right. I mean, certainly in conversations that will never be podcasts that you and Rich and I have had after the barbecue, I had to talk about some stuff that was not fun, right?
Yeah. And I don't recall, unless you, you know, I don't know, stabbed a voodoo doll of some bald guy afterwards, I didn't notice that you were incredibly hostile towards that.
I know it wasn't easy, right?
Right. That mic is still moving around.
Can you just see who's doing that?
And then just dump them if they're doing it.
So you have the capacity to hear things that are difficult without lashing out, right?
In fact, you sort that out, right?
Right. So, again, just go to the facts, right?
You don't lash out at people who can provide you genuine help, even if it's painful, right?
Right. Go ahead.
Oh, I'm just confused. I guess I misunderstood or totally picked the wrong one for a reason.
I'm not sure what's...
I don't know.
I guess I'm feeling a little...
I don't know what to say.
Confused? Because I'm not sure which one we're talking about here.
Well, if we just take an example or a metaphor that might clarify things, if you have a compass, right, and the compass says, go north, is it actually north or is it the opposite, right?
That's sort of what we're asking, right?
And the first one, and they were not particularly clearly phrased, so you might have got them backwards, but...
Does Colleen have anger towards this therapist because this therapist is challenging her defenses and she's lashing out at someone who can actually help her?
Or is the therapist genuinely reminding her of her mother and that it will actually be toxic that she would pay good money to have and invest time and vulnerability to be reinflicted with the same kind of emotions and rejections that she experienced as a child?
In other words, is she angry because the woman will do her harm?
Or is she angry for some completely unjust reason?
Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah.
So you're angry because you think she'll do you harm?
That seems to be the only possible theory.
Well, in these situations, we have to go with probability because we can't explore every possibility, right?
Like, we get interviewed by somebody who's, I don't know, a racist, right?
Well, maybe he's got two personalities, and this is the only time in his life that that one personality shows up, and the other personality, if we take the job, will be there permanently, right?
Maybe there's a one in a billion chance that that is the case.
I don't know, right? But we go on probabilities with these kinds of things, right?
Right, right. That's more accurate.
On a first date where somebody is really cold and mean, maybe they're just having the worst conceivable day of their life and they actually have a really sunny and wonderful person.
But we just go with the odds, right?
Right. And the options here are pretty significant, right?
Because if you go back and get re-inflicted, right?
If you basically go to a therapist who's like your mom, that's going to be exceedingly traumatic for you.
That's going to spill over into your work relationships, into your personal relationship, your romantic relationship with Rich.
And you're paying for this, right?
I mean, that would be masochistic, right?
And very destructive.
Right, right. And it would push you back and you'd act out on the board and you'd be in tears and there'd be this confusion and disorientation.
Like a lot of the wall that you built up would be knocked down, right?
Right. So I would say don't go to the therapist who pisses you off.
Not on the first session, right?
Not on the first session. Maybe after six months the therapist can say something that is really upsetting to you.
Because you've got a trust relationship, she's got credibility, right?
I mean, my therapist certainly did that.
She drew me up short a number of times later on in the therapy, but not in the first session, right?
Because that's entirely inappropriate.
She should not be saying to you, you need to forgive your parents in the first goddamn session.
That is ridiculous.
She doesn't know you, she doesn't know your history, she doesn't know your parents.
To give you a treatment plan when she knows nothing about your history and has no credibility with you.
also even if but even if that is the right treatment plan giving it to you up front without stepping you through how she's getting there and how she's going to get you there and how it works is ridiculous yeah and that also makes sense with something else pretty kind of alarming that she said
Because we brought up stuff about anger being a problem in our relationship and comfort with anger.
And she said, well, you know, I would say it's not so much the intensity of the anger that's, you know, it's what's behind it.
You know, I have couples that yell at each other and they have a happy relationship.
No, really? Why don't you just say that at the beginning?
We're going to save 45 minutes.
You people. Yeah, it's just...
I guess it's because every time that somebody's been nervous about their therapist, the answer's always like, well, go back and talk to them.
It's usually that sort of thing.
Well, but you're not nervous.
You're enraged, right?
Yeah. Yes.
That's a little different, right?
Right. You know, I had a disapproving father, and going to an authority figure who's a man makes me feel nervous.
Well, that's change, right?
That's good. Right.
Right. And this makes me think, I'm thinking, you know, I didn't protect Colleen again.
Because I didn't feel any of this stuff with this therapist, even though I heard her saying this stuff and I was watching Colleen get angry.
It kind of frightens me that I don't feel these things when I can't read these therapists the way Colleen can.
Well, but you regressed too, right?
Tell me more.
I'm a little confused on that.
Well, when Colleen got angry, you started to feel nervous, right?
Yes, but I was...
That's the way to tell, right? Yeah.
Sorry, that's the way to tell that there's some food thing going on, right?
Because this woman food Colleen, and then Colleen, in a sense, through that reaction to this therapist, food you, right?
Because then you're suddenly back at six and mom's getting angry, right?
Again, I'm overstating the case, but there was an element of that, right?
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
So that's how you can tell, right?
All right, all right.
I mean, I don't think that those things have occurred.
And this is not, you know, this is not to praise me, but it's just sort of to recognize the difference.
As far as I've understood it, after we three have talked about things, you guys have had good conversations afterwards, right?
Not always easy, but not weird, right?
Right. Whereas this was quite different, right?
Right. It went weird, right?
Right. When I'm talking about my anger towards my parents, Rich, like, you don't feel nervous.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
Absolutely not. Yeah, so this is just back to trust your feelings, right?
They are here to help you, right?
And they are here to keep you out of a reinfliction.
Right. Right. That helps a lot.
Yeah, it does. We would have had another session tomorrow.
Right, and who knows what would have happened there, right?
Because if this woman is like your mom, then she will not only be false, but manipulative as well, right?
Right. In which case, you're going to feel like you're not good enough to be her patient if you want to quit, or she's going to make you feel...
Again, this is just a guess, right?
But if she is this way, then it's going to be all kinds of problems, right?
Right, right.
But yeah, just as a general tip, you should have no idea what the treatment plan is the first couple of weeks of therapy.
Okay.
It's just gathering information.
You shouldn't know what the therapist is going to do, and the therapist certainly shouldn't give you conclusions about how you should deal with your family in the first session.
Oh, okay, because yeah, she was laying out her entire treatment plan.
Yeah, it's like, you know, don't you want to hear any symptoms first, doctor, before you prescribe your pills?
No, no, take these, right?
It's like, shut up, take these pills.
Well, that's not medicine, right?
That's just being a pusher.
Right. And it's good news, right?
Because it means that your anger is healthy.
Yes. It means it's not a reactive, dangerous, negative, hostile, destructive, bite-the-heads-off-bats kind of force, but it roused itself in a dangerous situation and told you, don't do it, right?
Right. That's good news, right?
Yeah, yes.
I mean, if the doctor taps the patient just below the knee, it doesn't matter if the reaction is so strong that the doctor gets kicked over, right?
The fact is it's working, right?
Right. Did you have anything you were thinking about?
No. Okay.
What? Are you picking up on something?
Yeah, I just, I don't know, you seem kind of anxious.
Well, Rich is going through a whole series, if you don't mind me saying so, Rich, I think I understand.
He's going through a whole series of, damn it, I can't believe I missed that, too.
Right, don't you have some...
Yeah, for sure. But you have to trust your feelings, right?
Yeah. But if his feelings are nervousness around my anger, then...
Well, but his habit is to manage you then, right?
Is to put on the concerned boyfriend face, tell me more, right?
That's interesting. Go on, right?
He becomes like the Freudian hand puppet, right?
Talk about your mother, right?
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Well, so, because he's like, well, you know, it's like what he said about Atlanta, right?
So, hell, I want to be supportive, and I want to be this, and I want to be that, right?
I support whatever decision you make, honey.
It's like, I don't want a pedestal, I want a partner, right?
So, he's got to tell you, I'm feeling kind of edgy and nervous.
But he did. Like, that's the thing, like, in this situation, he did.
Right. And what happened then?
Um... Then I asked you how you were feeling, and you said angry, and then, uh...
Yeah, and then it was, tell me more about that, tell me more about the anger.
Correct. Well, but the thing is that you guys are going so far back into your past, right?
It's like I had a dream last night.
It must be about when I was six, right?
Whereas I would generally suggest start with what happened.
Start with what just happened, right?
So you come back from this therapist and Colleen, you're enraged and Rich, then you get nervous, right?
Well, it's not about when you were six.
It's about the therapist. At least start with that, right?
Right. Yeah, yeah, okay.
And so if you're feeling enraged, after you see the therapist, Colleen, if you're feeling enraged and Rich, you're feeling nervous, then that's a pretty good indication it's not the right therapist, right?
Right. Yes.
And Rich, you don't have to self-erase to be there for Colleen, right?
Because there's kind of like one person gets the talking stick or the identity stick in a couple, and this is quite common.
Like, if she's upset, I have to be invisible and attentive, right?
Like a ghost, like a friendly ghost or something, right?
Yeah, yeah. But you can be as passionate as she is and still be completely there for her.
It's not like only one of you gets to have emotions at any given time, right?
Yeah. Of course, of course.
Right, right. But you have a little bit of that, right?
Because, Rich, in your family, when people would get very emotional, everybody would just get kind of wide-eyed and silent, right?
Yeah, for sure. Right, actually bring you closer together, right?
It's like, well, if you're feeling really strongly, I have to stop moving and barely breathe and erase, right?
Self-erase?
Right, right.
So that would just...
I think that's sort of...
And that's why you miss stuff, right?
Because Because you're entirely focused on her, but you want to be focused on her through your own feelings, right?
Mm-hmm. Right.
Whereas if you stay present with your feelings and you exchange that back and forth, then you're both there as strong participants in the situation.
You get to the answer very quickly, right?
Mm-hmm. That's all I had to say.
Yeah, that definitely helps.
I mean... What do you think?
Yeah, that helps.
Why I've been more convinced by people on the LAMI board.
I don't know.
You keep looking at me weird.
I don't know. I'm feeling nervous.
Yeah, I don't know if I'm just nervous.
I don't know, but I keep thinking that you're very tense.
Well, I tell you what, mull it over, talk it over with yourselves.
We can certainly talk about this another time, but let's move on to another question, if somebody else has them, if that's alright.
Okay.
No problem.
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
That was very, very important stuff.
And thanks so much for bringing it up.
I hope that people get that kind of understanding about two people feeling strongly in a couple situation.
One feeling does not have to erase the other.
We don't have to go back and forth monologue to monologue.
So I hope that that is helpful and stay with that for sure.
And I think it's very useful again.
You know, like the podcast where I said, just you're right.
Just accept that you're right.
I think it's important with this situation as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thanks, Steph.
You're very welcome. And if we have other questions or comments, feel free.
We deal with the spectrum, philosophy, psychology, economics, art, and so on.
So whatever is going down in your brain, bring it up here.
Hi, Steph. Hello?
Hello, yeah. My question, I guess, is, well I had to write it down because I was a bit unsure what I really meant, but my question today is how one distinguishes between secular ethics and the toxic dimension of Christian morality, if that makes any sense.
Well, look for the guy in the funny hat.
That's first and foremost. Yeah.
I'll try and put it back into context.
Try and put some of that into context.
I had an interesting comment on the board with Greg about a wedding I had to go to yesterday.
My father was going to be there, and I kind of defude him and wasn't feeling comfortable with it.
I only found out in the last minute that he was going to this wedding as well.
I didn't feel comfortable with confronting him at all.
And Greg sort of progressed my feelings about this and I said, well, you can use a sort of, I was going to say a false self, but I mean, you can use a sort of, you can pretend to be in a conversation without having to involve confrontation because I felt quite angry towards him.
And I was concerned with that anger.
And that kind of placated it that I was allowed to just, well, you know, that's fine.
I don't have to. I don't have to be angry with him in that situation.
I sort of got the sense that this was coming from my childhood as being brought up as a Christian and having that morality thrust down me.
I've always struggled with morality in that sense because it's always come from this sort of religious part which I've always fought against once I left home and stuff like that.
Does that make sense? Oh, sure.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're using the same – sorry to interrupt – but you're using the same word for two things, right?
Sure. Like if you use the same word for racism and for tolerance or a joy in diversity or whatever, then it is going to be kind of confusing, right?
So what would be a better word for this, what you call Christian morality?
I don't really know, I guess.
Well, okay, there's some things that we can eliminate.
I probably do know, yeah. I mean, sorry, there's some things which we can eliminate for sure when it comes to looking at something like a Christian assertion, right?
Because Christianity, not because it's Christianity, but just because it's religious, superstitious, is merely an assertion, right?
I mean, there's no proof, right?
In fact, there's entirely the opposite of proof, because they claim the absurd, right?
Tertullian said, I believe it because it is absurd, but that, of course, is just the ravings of a lunatic, right?
So they put forward completely contradictory, ridiculous, intellectually embarrassing, stupid-ass superstitious statements with the exact opposite of proof behind them, right?
So we would not call that science, right?
No. We would call that bigotry, right?
Yeah. And it's even worse than bigotry, because if I'm a bigot and say, I don't know, I hate Chinese acrobats, at least Chinese acrobats exist, whereas nothing about religion is real.
It's the exact opposite of reality, truth, rationality, and science, right?
Right. But bigotry is a fairly reasonable approach, right?
To distinguish it from something like philosophy, right?
Yes. So murderous superstitious bigotry would be somewhere that I would approach it.
And the reason I say murderous is not because all Christians want to murder people, but the philosophy, because you're talking about the ethics, not the individuals, the philosophy is specifically murderous, right, in that it counsels the death of very many people.
Yes. And the highest moral being in that crazy sick Matrix universe is specifically genocidal and that is considered to be the highest ethic, right?
Kills everyone in the world except Noah and regularly promotes slavery and rape and stoning to death of children and the killing of children and so on, right?
So we have a completely sick Charles Manson style kind of universe and so murderous Bigoted superstition would be the way that I would approach it, if that would make some sense.
Yeah, I would. I mean, I understand that's the more outrageous side of Christianity.
I have no problem with...
You know, putting that in that area or whatever.
But it's the more subtle, I guess.
I mean, my problem, I guess, my biggest issue about this not confronting my father was I didn't want to get angry in a situation, in a public situation, a friend's wedding and stuff like that.
And I sort of felt compelled that I had to confront him.
And, of course, the thing that Greg rightly pointed out to me, well, you don't have to confront him at all.
You don't have to do anything, you know.
And I wondered where that was coming from.
I sort of got the sense that, you know, it kind of felt like it was something from that sort of religiosity where, you know, you must You know, I don't know.
It's difficult to put into context, I guess.
I can't exactly explain it, but it just seemed like that's where it was coming from for me.
Maybe it's not. Maybe it's coming from something else.
No, I think what you're communicating to me is relatively clear.
And let me take a swing at it, and you can let me know if I hit anything useful or if I'm putting my arm out.
I don't know. But do you remember how earlier in this part of the conversation...
We talked about how you were using the same word for two opposing things, right?
For Christian bigotry and philosophical ethics.
Yes. Right.
I would submit that the same pattern which I think you're getting unconsciously is occurring when you talk about what you want.
Because I would submit to you that you did not want to confront your father at all, but that your father was desperate for you to confront him.
Well, yeah, maybe.
Maybe I'm using the wedding as an excuse, but I didn't want to confront him in that public scenario, I guess.
Even, you know, I just, you know, that was my biggest concern because I know, and maybe I am putting off the confrontation in the long term.
You know, there could be some...
Okay, sorry to interrupt you.
What is the confrontation that you're talking about?
What is it that you feel is important or necessary to have a confrontation about?
I guess it's specific things that happened in my childhood, I guess, and things that...
That upset me about the way that he behaved at a certain period in my life, I guess.
Okay, and the goal of the confrontation is what?
Well, yeah, I don't know.
I guess, like you were saying earlier, do I want to confront him?
And perhaps I don't, you know, because a certain side of me feels it's perhaps a worthless task, you know.
Can you give me an example of one of the things that you would want to talk to him about, one of the incidents or the behaviours?
Yeah. You don't have to.
I'm sorry. If you don't want to, that's no problem.
I don't know what you're talking about.
It's a bit nonspecific. No, I know.
I'll try and put it into context for you.
I guess the way that he completely blew both me and my brother out in our...
Sort of teenage years and with idle threats of putting us into children's homes, not talking to us for months on end and putting my brother into a private school where practically things happened to him that weren't pleasant.
I mean there are a few things and that was mainly it really.
Okay, so he was verbally abusive, and you say idle threats, but they weren't idle if your brother was put into a private school, right?
No, he wasn't idle, no.
Okay, so threats of abandonment, and did you say months that he wouldn't talk to you?
What does that mean? Yeah, there was a period when he just refused to...
He was going through some sort of depression, I think, with his work and stuff, but...
Yeah, he refused to talk to me.
He would literally turn his nose up when he saw me or something.
How was that a sign of depression?
I have no idea.
I'm just giving some feeble excuse for it.
Well, but you understand why I'm saying that your desires and your father's desires seem to me to be kind of mingled here, right?
Yeah. Because, first of all, you said idle threats.
That's his story, right?
He'd say, oh, those threats weren't serious, right?
Yeah. So you see that your father's narrative creeps in constantly when you talk about your father, right?
And then you say, well, he was going through some kind of depression, so he would turn his nose up whenever I would try and talk to him.
That is not a sign of depression, a sign I know, because I had a mother who was depressed, right?
A sign of depression is you can't get out of bed, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, he was a bit like that as well.
He was in bed a lot and stuff, I remember.
Not throughout the whole time, but, you know.
Yeah, but the cruelty of turning your nose up, I guess, in a sort of snarky or superior kind of way, or condescending way, that is not a sign of depression.
That's a sign of sadism.
It's a sign of cruelty, right?
Yeah. No, I think he is a sadist.
Or he was, and he still is.
Right. But you see that you say idle threats followed by an example of a threat that was enacted, right?
Yeah. But if you confronted, you see, you're already confronting your father in a way because your conversation is mixed with both of your perspectives, right?
Yeah. You sound thoroughly unconvinced.
No, I am.
No, sorry. I'm just trying to take it all in.
But, you know. Probably it's just my accent.
No, it's not the accent.
I know I've got an enormous feeling of anger towards him and it's been during this conversation over the last few months and stuff like that.
Sorry, by this conversation you mean FDR? I mean with FDR, sorry, with the podcast and stuff and the mulling over in my mind about things about my past, etc.
Things that I've ignored. And things that now I want to clear up in myself.
But obviously, clearly anger is a huge thing in me.
I do feel an enormous amount of anger towards him.
And I don't quite know what to do with it, really.
Sometimes I think, oh, it means nothing, in the sense that he means nothing.
I can push him away and it's...
Not an issue. Obviously, clearly he wants to confront this issue.
I can tell by his...
Sorry to interrupt.
That would be his habit, right?
Pushing away is his habit, right?
Because when you said when you were in your teenage years, he just didn't talk to you for months, right?
Yeah. So, don't do the pushing away.
That's his habit, right?
Sure. So, what should I do?
Well, first of all, I'm not sure what you mean when you say, I'm not sure what to do with my anger, right?
Your anger is not like, I don't know, a bored child, right?
No. It's you, right?
It's like saying, what do I want to do with my kidney?
What do I want to do with myself, right?
It's not an external thing, like you have to do something about it or to it or with it, right?
It's not like a performing monkey.
It's like, how should I dress it, right?
Yeah. No, no.
I mean your anger is you.
It is your genuine spiritual, for want of a better word, experience of your history and it is essential to your mental health, right?
Yes, yes.
And so if you look at it like it is a very important aspect of your history and it is the foundation of a more rational kind of self-esteem and ethics and boundaries and health, right?
Yeah. Then it's not a question of what do I do with it, like it's this thing that's awkward and embarrassing and rolling around in me like a cactus, right?
How do I manage this dangerous thing, right?
You don't do anything with it.
You don't do anything with it because it is you, right?
You accept your anger.
You let it wash over you.
You absorb it. You ask it questions.
You do all of the wholly embarrassing, particularly for British people, ecosystem stuff that I talk about.
You give your angry name like fluffy kittens or bunny slippers.
No, I'm just kidding. But you interact with this because it's a part of you.
It's a part of your intelligence.
It's a part of your personality and it's there to help.
And so it's not something that you do something with.
It's something that you unite with your personality.
It's something that you negotiate with.
It's something that you invite in and accept.
Yeah. Because if that anger is accepted into your personality, then this interweaving where you're kind of blended in with your father's perspective is going to be less likely to occur, and you will be less confused, right?
Because this is what I sort of get, is you feel depressed and confused at the moment, if I understand this rightly.
I don't feel depressed.
I feel... I guess I feel...
No, I don't feel...
Depressed so much. Obviously, I feel a certain amount of pressure from him, and I feel that there's a confrontation that perhaps is going to happen.
Okay, let me just start with that earlier part, and the reason that I say that you sound depressed, and this doesn't mean clinical or anything like this, it just means you sound down, is that you have approximately the level of emotional enthusiasm of a condemned man.
Okay. And this is just my perspective, right?
I mean, maybe you're smiling on the inside.
I don't know, right? But you seem not excited about the journey, if that makes sense?
Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
Well, tell me about your general level.
Like, when was the last time that you were very happy?
Um... I have suffered from depression.
I don't feel like I've been in those massive bouts that I've had.
Certainly since listening to FDR, it's been a much more uplifting moment in my life.
Yeah, I guess I feel like I struggle with obligation and work and stuff like that.
But last time I was happy was...
I guess it was some time ago, really, if I was to talk about really true happiness, you know, like probably university days.
And how long ago was that?
Ten years? Probably about eight years, eight to ten years ago, I guess.
Right. And, I mean, this is only to point out, I mean, because you know my, you know, meerkat on a triple espresso kind of enthusiasm, right?
Yeah. Right, so it's good that your involvement in philosophy is keeping you away from the abyss, right?
But I still aim to set your sights higher in terms of aiming for genuine and lasting happiness, right?
Joy? Sure, yeah.
And you won't get that until you separate your father's narrative from your own experience, right?
Your father's defenses, right?
The reason that people, in my opinion, this is all complete amateur bullshit hour, right?
So don't take any of this seriously, but in my opinion, people get depressed because they're at war with themselves, right?
Yeah. Right? Like, we get physically tired when we're fighting off an infection, and someone else's mythology is an infection in our mind.
Someone else's story that is opposed to our genuine experience is a dampener and an exhauster within our mind, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
We're tired when we have chemo because we have part of our body that's trying to kill us and another part of our body that's trying to save us.
And that war, that combat is exhausting.
And I think that your level of not happiness, if we don't say depression, if we say not happiness, would result because you have your genuine experience.
Which is exciting and frightening and angry and frightened as well and all that kind of stuff.
But then I would imagine that when you start to experience that, you feel this wave of defenses that is like, well, it wasn't that bad or, you know, well, I guess I should get to it sometime or, you know, they were idle threats or, you know, like you do not feel that when you start to feel something strongly that there's a countervailing force within you.
Yeah, there is.
I make excuses for it, I guess.
Well, you see, you're saying I make excuses for it.
This is what I mean.
You are ego-identifying with your father's defenses, which means you cannot be genuinely who you are, which means that you will not have the energy and the optimism, right?
Right. So, when you say, I make excuses, what do you really mean?
what's a more accurate way of putting that I don't know I really don't know.
Okay, well, let's start. This is good, right?
It's good that you don't know, and obviously, you're a genius because you're listening to FDR, so we're not going to go with the capacity that you don't have the capacity to know.
So, when you say your defenses, are these defenses that you invented yourself?
Like you were sitting home one day when you were a kid, and you said, I got all these feelings, like I'm upset, I'm angry, or whatever, but what I'm going to do, just on my own, sitting here in the attic, I'm going to write down all of these things that tell me that I'm wrong.
And I'm going to repeat them and I'm going to repeat them until I believe them and then they become automatic to me.
Well, no.
Right.
Thank you.
you Because that's important, right?
They're not yours. Your kidney is yours.
Your dreams are yours. Your thoughts are yours.
These defenses which tell you that you're wrong, they're not yours.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it does make sense.
Does that make sense? I could be yelling at you.
Does it make sense? Tell me that it makes sense.
But it's not something that you invented all on your own, right?
No, that makes sense, yeah.
Right, I mean, when I was in boarding school, we had to write a letter to our parents every weekend, or if we refused or rejected or wrote a bad one, we'd get the cane, right?
So, I really wasn't writing letters, right?
It's just something I had to do, right?
I mean, say, I got your letter.
It's like, it's not my letter. It's what I have to write down in order to not get caned, right?
Yeah. It's the cane's letter, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
So this is the first thing around separating that which is for your energy and your truth and your true self and your authenticity and that which opposes it.
And we never ever invent that which opposes our own truth, our own experience.
No, no.
Any more than you come across an untraumatized kid who really enjoys poking his eye with a spoon, right?
No. We don't act against our own souls.
We just don't. That's not how we're built.
But it obviously seems to be quite ingrained, obviously, in me.
Well, in everyone. It's not just you.
I mean, you're certainly not alone, and this is true of everyone.
We internalize our parents' defenses, because otherwise, bad things happen to us, right?
Yeah. Yes, certainly bad things would happen with my father if I confronted him really physically.
But even that you say confronted, right, is another defense.
Sorry to be so annoying, right?
Because when you tell someone the truth, right, you're not confronting them.
Like if I work in a store and someone says, how much are these bananas?
And I say 40p a pound, I'm not confronting them, right?
Right. No.
If I go up to my wife and I say, I'd like to go out to a restaurant for dinner, we eat Italian, what do you think?
I'm not confronting her, right?
No. I'm just telling the truth.
This is my desire and this is the price of bananas.
It's not a confrontation.
Unless she wants to eat Thai, in which case things get really ugly.
But we don't have to get into that.
Right, but the idea that for you to tell the truth to your father is a confrontation is your father's defense, right?
Yes, I guess so, yeah.
That would make, sorry, Swiss cheese, yeah.
I guess so. I'll have to get back to you.
No, you're right. No, you're right.
Telling the truth is not confrontational.
It is only called confrontational by those people who don't want you to tell the truth, right?
Yes. I mean, it's not anarchy, it's honesty, right?
Or integrity, right? Just people call it anarchy because it sounds more negative and they don't like the truth, right?
Yes. Right?
Parents can tell their children what to do, but when their children respond without immediate obedience, it's called backtalk, right?
Or something like that, right? Yeah.
I can bark at you, and I'm being a good parent.
If you bark at me, you're being a willful and disobedient child, and I'm going to replace you with a serpent's tooth or something, right?
I mean, that's just the nonsense that people bully children with, right?
Yeah. One rule for me, the opposite rule for you, right?
That's how it goes, right?
This is the untruth if you've ever had a chance to listen or read that.
It's a basic idea, right?
Absolutely, yeah. So the thing that I would do, you know, if I were in your brogues, would be to get a piece of paper, right?
Just draw a line right down the middle of it and say, my experience on one side, my father's defense is on the other.
This sounds like a ridiculous exercise.
Spent 20 minutes. It might even only take you 10.
Put it down, right?
My experience was, my father's defense was, right?
My experience was that my father threatened us with incredibly abusive consequences.
My father's defense is, oh, they were only idle threats.
I can't believe you took them seriously.
Yeah. My father was cruel and sadistic.
His defense is, well, I was depressed.
Yes. And you go through everything that you can think of that has your genuine experience and your father's intellectual or emotional defenses against those experiences, right?
And you study that list.
You study that list like it's battle plans, right?
And what you do is you start to become conscious of when you are intermingling your father's defenses with your genuine experience.
And you just start to pull that shit apart and say, you know what?
I'm not going to be a fucking advertising sign for my dad's bullshit.
I'm not going to tell him.
I'm not going to tell his story.
I'm not going to give his defenses.
I'm not going to give his bullshit.
I'm not going to be a fucking hand-up-the-ass spokesmodel for his mythology, right?
No, right. If he wants to sell his bullshit, he can do it on his own.
I am not going to be a billboard for bullshit.
No, no.
And I can guarantee you that if you do that in a month or two, you will really start to feel some of that old uni energy coming back.
That's a really good idea.
Do you want to go do that?
Because there's nothing else that I want to say anything about that.
Yeah, no, no. Thanks, Steph.
No, thank you. Just do me a favor, if you don't mind.
Just let me know. Look, if you could post the list, I think that would be fantastic.
And you can create an anonymous account if you want, because, well, forget that.
Everybody would know anyway. But if you could...
That would be great. If you don't want to send it to me, I'd be happy to look at it if you like, just for my own sort of education.
This is just rehab, right?
This is just getting out of old habits, right?
You got a cane called your father's bullshit.
You just got to put it down and walk with a twinge for a while, but just get used to pulling this apart, right?
And you'd be amazed when you get used to this, how quickly you'll see the same thing creeping into other people's language, right?
Well, it's true that my mother could be kind of mean, but I was a really difficult child, right?
Yeah, you've said that so many times.
Yeah, this is what people say all the time.
Yes, it's true that this bad thing happened, but I did kind of provoke it through X, Y, and Z, right?
So you just see the seesaw of propaganda.
Well, sorry. One is the genuine experience.
The other is the defense of propaganda.
Just get used to peeling this out of your speech and try and have fidelity only to your own genuine experience, not to other people's minimization or attacks upon it.
Sure. Well, thanks, Steph.
Thanks a lot. You're welcome.
And keep us posted about how it goes.
And thank you so much. I can't tell you how much I admire what you're doing.
I mean, I can, because I will.
Like, I think that what you're doing is incredible and fantastic.
And I know how hard it is.
And I know that it's not easy sometimes with the people that you have around you.
But it is unbelievably essential for your happiness.
And, you know, if you have kids in the future, whatever, right?
It is going to be absolutely the best.
...for ending the cycle within your gene pool, and you are completely heroic for doing it.
So I guess I can tell you that.
I just wanted to... Thank you.
Same back to you as well.
thanks alright did we have anybody else want to do do you have a second Okay. Pleased to talk English.
Go ahead. I just kind of wanted to say at the outset that I'm feeling like 65 million kinds of nervous just asking you a question.
I had to ask Greg to sort me out.
So I was wondering, had you seen my post on the diamond board?
I think I'm going to ask Greg to move it to the general board anyway, but had you seen that?
Not that I can remember. Not that I can remember.
Ooh, echo. Ooh, echo.
Ooh, yeah. Echo bad.
So basically, I mean, obviously you know that I've always wanted to travel.
But this comes up for me once every six months, and it's been coming up for me especially since I quit school.
I've been thinking for many years of just leaving the United States and going on an extended holiday, like one or two years worth of just You know, working and traveling around in Europe and Asia and just sort of, you know, being myself in the world and sort of experiencing myself and the world at the same time.
And whenever I start, this is something that I really want and have really wanted for the past, good lord, ten years.
And whenever I think about it, you know, I always start trying to talk myself out of it, like, oh, you oughtn't to tell anyone because they're going to think you're stupid, or they're going to tell you that it's dangerous and you ought not to go, or, you know, you don't know how to support yourself overseas.
I mean, you're going to countries where you don't bloody well speak the language, you know?
How are you going to get by?
That's just stupid.
Right. And I was wondering, you know, why I do that, and And, you know, questions that I can ask myself to figure out, you know, why this is or if this is, you know, a good idea or something that I'm ready for or, you know, whatever else. I was wondering if you had any insight.
If possible, I just, I guess the first question I would have is I'm a little confused about your list because, I mean, in terms of exotic locales, they're exciting and thrilling with wildly different ecosystems.
I don't remember you mentioning Mississauga, but Perhaps I missed that.
I'd be happy to make it either my first or my last stop if you wanted, my friend.
Excellent. Last, because you'll have lots of goodies and a wide variety of exotic diseases.
So, well...
Not to state the obvious, but, I mean, how were, let's say, unusual—I don't think this is that unusual—I mean, who wouldn't want to travel, right?
But how were unusual aspirations treated in your family when you were growing up?
Because, I mean, you've had your share of not common aspirations, right?
Right. I got the same litany of, oh, you oughtn't to do that, or, oh, that's dangerous, or they're— One summer, I wanted to go on this hour-bound trip, sort of mountaineering out in California.
I was so excited.
It was like all that I ever wanted to do, right?
Two weeks before the trip, which was in the summer, Mother comes into my bedroom and says, oh, by the way, you're not going to California.
We've bought you a plane ticket to your grandmother's.
You're going to go stay with her for the summer.
And, you know...
Sorry? It wasn't a mountain, right?
So this was bad? No.
Okay, just checking. It's not my grandmother Matterhorn or anything, right?
Oh, that's terrible. It's absolutely terrible.
And of course, that is just soul-crushing for a child who has visions of California mountains and then goes to old people who smell of mothballs, right?
That's just no good. Well, I mean, she didn't even give me a reason.
I mean, I begged her to give me a reason, but it was just, don't ask me, you're going.
So, I mean, anything that I really wanted to do that, you know, involved leaving the house was completely anathema to mother and to grandmother.
Okay, so if I understand that right, Charlotte, what you're saying is, I don't know why I have negative and critical thoughts about traveling.
My family had hugely negative and critical thoughts about traveling and Where are they coming from?
Well, it can't be your family. Have you been visited by any garden gnomes in your dreams lately?
Because that would be the next place that I would go.
Yes, it seems rather silly now you talk about it.
Well, but I mean, I think the more relevant question, if you don't mind me injecting one in, is, you know, A, why is this still occurring?
And B, why is this connection that is fairly blindingly obvious and not being made by you, who's very intelligent and aware of these things, right?
Yes, I think it would be best to figure those things out before buying a plane ticket to Istanbul.
Yeah, maybe, maybe not.
I mean, yeah, first of all, you know, I mean, just from a practical standpoint...
Those objections are not true, right?
I mean, you can travel, you can have a wonderful time, not knowing the language.
I mean, if you only spoke some Urdu clicking language, yes, absolutely, you might want to bone up on a little English before going, but to a large degree, wherever you go, there'll be people who can speak English.
I mean, I haggled in China, right?
I mean, and they're not, you know, huge on the English thing, right?
But of course, I blended like a native, naturally, so they thought I was Cantonese.
Of course, of course.
So, yeah, the big foreign person was my nickname.
I'm not sure why. So, you can travel with no problems.
You can work wherever you go.
You can meet up with great people.
You know, like if basically what I'm saying is if Greg can do it, I mean, how hard can it be?
Right? That's sort of what I'm saying.
But we'll come back to that later. But yeah, you can get all of that stuff done.
You can go and have a wonderful time.
You can have the trip of a lifetime.
And you can remember it for the rest of your days with fondness and so on.
And you can get all those bitchin' tattoos that you've been talking about on the Diamond Plus board.
You might want to take down some of the pictures.
They're unbelievably filthy. Yeah, the naughty ones.
Yeah, naughty is one thing.
I mean these like – the person who spanks them should get a spanking is what I'm saying.
But – so you can do all of these wonderful things and you should do it now while you're young because – For the reasons that we've discussed privately, you should do it while you're young.
And you should get all of this stuff done.
You can have a wonderful time. And yeah, of course, there'll be all these people who will tell you, ooh, you know, these terrible, bad things can happen.
You'll get malaria and you will be robbed.
I mean, but this is all nonsense.
I mean, people travel all over the world.
And, you know, there are some basic precautions that you can take.
Christina went all over Europe completely alone.
And she's like... A garden gnome, right?
So no good advantage of her, and she was perfectly fine.
I mean, you take some basic precautions, which is exactly what you would take in any North American city.
And don't wear American flags, that kind of thing.
So you can go and have a wonderful time, and it would be completely thrilling to watch your journeys and to hear about them and to get the photos and so on, which I hope that you would keep us in contact with.
Of course. And if you have the time and the leisure, you should absolutely do it.
And I have no doubt whatsoever that you will come back with a very good clarity about what it is that you want to do with your life from here.
But to me, that would be like, I can't believe you're talking to me, you're not already planning.
But there will be these things that come up for sure, but that's just nonsense to do with the past, right?
And you could spend a lot of time trying to figure that stuff out, or you could just go and deal with the feelings as they come up.
And I would suggest that.
Don't let the week go out without getting your plans finalized as best you can.
I promise. How are you feeling?
Was that helpful? Or was it just completely obvious and go have fun?
I'm feeling still a little bit tense, but much better actually.
Good. Yeah, I mean, once we get into action and we act against the past, you know, I mean, you got suckily robbed of a great trip to California when you were a kid.
And so you just say, well, I'm going to pour that much extra energy into having an even better time now.
And yeah, now's the time to do it.
I mean, in your early 20s, that's the time to go and get these things done.
And, you know, it gets a little bit harder later because your wife won't give you the money.
Yeah. You know, theoretically, I'm not talking about me.
Why are you staring at me that way? So, yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, and I had a pretty good run of travel, particularly in business, so I'm not going to make any complaints about that.
But, yeah, my God, I mean, geez, absolutely.
Yeah, single, unattached.
Yeah, go tot it up around the planet.
That's what Christina did. I'm just kidding.
But no, absolutely. Have a fantastic time, and I'm sure it will be thrilling.
And I'm sure that there will be people in the conversation who will be more than happy to give you tips and pointers and places to stay and so on.
So use the community is sort of what I'm saying.
It is a worldwide conversation, and I'm sure many people would be more than thrilled to have the heroine of so many podcasts actually in their living room and touching them for healing powers.
Okay, I will start my own church somewhere in Southeast Asia and y'all can all come.
Absolutely. Don't forget the nair.
It's very important for the look.
Right. Thanks, Doug.
You're very welcome. And is there anyone else who wanted to jump in at the end with a question or a comment?
I am all with the donkey ears no okay well thank you everybody so much for dropping by this Sunday July the Hamana Hamana 2000 and her I really appreciate everyone dropping by.
Don't forget to drop by, pick up your copy of the new books.
Donate, subscribe, give me your firstborn.
I will treat them well. And have yourselves a wonderful week, and I will talk to you guys in a week.
Have a great, great time.
▲
Export Selection