All Episodes
Previous Next
June 22, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
58:59
1094 Philosophical Anxiety - Couple Convo
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Hey, how's it going? Not bad, not bad.
Doing good. We just woke your girlfriend up from a nap.
I feel all kinds of guilty now.
It's cool. Excellent, excellent.
Okay. So, I am yours if I can help you or provide any sort of feedback that's useful.
Because as far as I understand it, you're going through a bit of a tough time for the last little while.
Yeah, we've been talking about our relationship, and we've been getting into a lot of deep discussions about it, and it's been kind of difficult because I felt like I wasn't able to, I guess, get through effectively.
I wasn't able to...
I guess, get the information, or I guess I just wasn't able to get her to open up.
I felt like we weren't being as open as we could be, and I felt like I was running into brick walls with the conversation and trying to be more open and understanding, and then there was the whole We had this whole thing about, you know, I was very into FDR and very...
I'm still very in FDR and still into philosophy and it was hard to get...
It seemed like it was...
It felt like to me like I was, you know, having to, you know, drag her along and she wasn't really interested in it and...
It just...
There's been quite a host of things and it's on that ambivalent, in love and afraid thread...
That I posted.
A lot of that stuff's on there.
And I let her read the thread as well.
But it was...
I guess the main thing that we've been talking about that we've had the most problem with was...
I guess I felt really bad when she made the comment that the thing that she most liked about me was the fact that I made her feel good about herself.
And I guess that's the one thing that we haven't been able to effectively talk about or communicate well about.
And then also the things about trying to get interested in philosophy and stuff like that.
Right. Now, just before we go a little further, do you mind if we use first names?
Is that okay? Is that okay?
That's fine. Okay. Yeah.
Can you spin them past me again just so I've got them there?
I only know board names, right?
So that's not going to help much. Okay.
Ty and then Brie.
Ty and Brie.
Okay. Great. So we have Rope and Cheese.
We could use that. It could be a little different.
But we won't. We'll go with the names themselves.
So, Brie, first of all, of course, I'd like to introduce myself and really apologize for breaking your boyfriend.
I know that that must be kind of annoying for you that he seemed one way he gets into philosophy and he gets all kinds of another way.
And that must be disconcerting or unsettling for you.
Is that right? Or is it just annoying?
I mean, it could be something that simple.
No, I mean, it...
That's not it, I guess.
It's just...
I guess he was so, um...
I guess maybe, like...
I guess we talked about yesterday that I guess he was so into it.
Um... I guess I felt like, I guess kind of maybe pressured...
Into it. That, you know, I kind of felt like I had to.
I guess I didn't have any other, you know, choice.
So you must, you know, read and listen.
And that there was nothing else, like, you can do.
And I guess that's why, I guess, it's...
I guess I haven't been as into it as he is.
It's just I feel like it's the only thing that, you know, I can do, you know, or listen to.
I can't do anything other things that maybe interest me.
Right. And there is a kind of tidal wave of enthusiasm that comes when an eager mind gets a hold of philosophy.
You may have had an easier time with guys who were 16 in the backseat of a car in terms of insistence than a guy who first gets into philosophy.
So I can totally understand that.
And is it right, Ty, there's like a kind of monomania almost that comes along that way?
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've definitely been completely enthusiastic about it.
I'm up to, like, podcast 500 and so by now, and, you know, just, I don't know, I'm totally invested in it.
And I guess I'm really, I guess, in some ways, I mean, we still have the board, but in my relationship with my girlfriend, I really want to have this really Strong discussion with FDR. I really want to kind of get into it.
I guess I can be a bit overzealous with it.
And is it the philosophy side of things or the relationship side of things, Ty, that you're most interested in bringing to the relationship?
Mainly it's relationship stuff.
Yeah. There is the philosophy part as well that I'm very much interested into, but a lot of the relationship stuff, the reason why the relationship stuff is because it has a lot to do with a lot of my past problems that I've had with my parents and stuff like that.
I guess I'm hypersensitive or hyper-aware and really don't want to end up in that kind of position again.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember the first time we talked about a dream that you had about your mom.
I mean, it was just stone terrifying, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, Brie, has there been a lot of changes from your perspective since he started?
And it's not anything to do with me or with FDR, but when he started getting into philosophy and I guess more so into psychology, what changes have you noticed in Thai over the past – how long has it been?
Six months? Eight months?
Yeah, something like that, I think so.
Yeah, I was about to say, because I think, I was about to say what was it like in that, what was it, February or something, I know he was completely like, I guess you were a determinist or something?
Yeah, I was still in determinism.
I still hadn't... Right, so if you think of him before he got possessed by this particular devil, what changes have occurred for you, just in terms of him, not necessarily just like in your relationship, but just him as a person, what are some of the pluses and minuses that you've seen since he's gotten into philosophy?
He's definitely... I think more open.
He wants to talk more.
He kind of used to shut me out a lot.
He just kind of wants to run away and not talk about things.
I bet you those look a little bit like the good old days sometimes.
It's like, hey, remember when you were emotionally inaccessible?
That was great! Well, I mean, it kind of, like, it was very weird because when he did, like, shut me out, it was just kind of very, like, one minute it seemed like things were, you know, okay, and I didn't understand suddenly why he'd be so cold and distant.
So now, you know, it's completely, it's different.
You know, he wants to talk.
He doesn't want to run away.
He wants to tell me, like, you know, what is going on.
What's going on, what he's feeling, and I guess not break up with me and shut me out.
Right, and I'm just making a note of this under the category, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
You know, because you probably wanted him in the past to be more open and not to shut you out this way, right?
Yeah, I did.
It's like, hey, you got your wish, but it's like, how do you get the genie back in the bottle, or at least halfway, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So he's opened up more emotionally, and what else has been going on?
Just in terms of how he's different now relative to, say, eight months ago.
Oh, well, yeah, it's just, he's just, I guess the big thing is just that he's just more open and that he just, you know, wants to talk.
I mean, there are still, you know, kind of times where it still feels like, you know, he's inaccessible, you know, just, you know, one minute, you know, he still sometimes seems like, you know, everything seems to be okay, you know, we're talking, and then, um...
Next minute, I guess it's like when I... You know, like a week ago or so, he seemed...
You know, we were good, we were talking, and then I come back from...
I went home, and then I come back, and he just seems very, you know, distant, and I get kind of sometimes, I guess, a little confused.
I know he's, like, frustrated, he tells me, but I get, like...
I feel like I go from one opposite to the other side, or I guess the other extreme.
And is that more or less or about the same as it was a year ago?
I don't think it's exactly the same, because at least he's still...
Because at least back then he wanted to just kind of like end it completely.
The relationship.
Now it's not...
He doesn't at least want to end the relationship.
He at least wants to talk about it.
About what's going on.
But yeah. I don't think it's as bad as I would say a year ago or two years ago.
It's... It's not as extreme.
And what do you think and what do you feel about the stuff that's going on with his family?
Because that's quite different in some ways as well, right?
Yeah, I mean, he talks to me about his family a lot, and I try to ask questions, especially if he's heard from them.
You know, how he talks to him and, you know, how he feels.
Because, I mean, I know it's, you know, difficult at any age, you know, I guess when your parents are, you know, splitting up.
And just, you know, he, you know, talks a lot.
I mean, even, I guess before, he just, he's always talked a lot about his family in, uh, In his past.
And he's just told me, you know, how manipulative they were to him.
It's kind of like using him, putting him in the middle.
Right, right. Now, is it my understanding that you want this relationship to continue, Brie?
Is that right? Yes, I do.
And why? I don't know.
I mean, I don't have any opinion, obviously, because I don't know you guys.
But if you can just sort of tell me what...
What is it that gives you that?
I mean, you know, just between you and I, Ty, could be kind of a handful, right?
Boy, it's got some volatility is what I'm saying.
So what is it that for you is the pluses that make this worth fighting for?
I was about to say, Ty is so sweet, so caring, so nice, and so generous of a person.
I mean, he's loyal, he cares about me, he's always there for me, and I've never...
I guess kind of known that in a person.
I mean, no one's ever, I guess, demonstrated that, you know, actually, you know, they don't just want to kind of, I guess, use me for something and then that's it.
I mean, he actually genuinely cares about me.
So, I guess that's why I want to continue this relationship because he's just such an amazing person.
Okay, so he's sweet, he's kind, he's generous, he's caring, and so on.
I just want to make sure I'm getting the right flavor.
Right. Okay, and was there anything else you wanted to add to that?
No. Okay.
And Ty, what's your opinion of this stuff at the moment in terms of going forward with the relationship?
Okay. Um, my thing was is that we have this, like, I have this, like I said, I'm ambivalent and conflicted about it because I would like for it to continue, but I have problems with...
Just certain...
Like I said, in the post that I talked about the certain statement that she made, and I just...
I mean, I understand what...
I guess I understand her...
What she loves about me and how she cares about me.
And I do want to continue to work at it.
I guess after talking for the past two days, we've been able to iron out a couple things, but I guess my thing is...
I guess I really want to kind of continue working on trying to create this openness, because it just feels like, to me, even though I would like for the relationship to continue, and I would like to be close, and I really, you know, I get so much from her.
It's just the... I would like to be able to be more open and to have the deeper discussions not only about my family but as her family as well and to be able to kind of Tear away some of those barriers that seems to be between us when we're trying to get into deeper conversations because it seems like they get halted really quickly and I feel like,
like I told her we were talking about today, I feel like when I say things there's just this immediate compliance with what I'm saying that kind of stunts the conversation and I guess I mean, that's what I feel.
It doesn't mean necessarily that that's what she's trying to do, stop the conversation.
It feels like that.
It feels like every time I was mentioned something.
So, I mean, I guess I would like for the relationship to continue.
I just really want to work out and iron out these issues because, you know, and the thing about philosophy and the thing about psychology and FDR, it's We talked a little bit more about that, and talking about how she wanted to do it at her own pace, and she said that she felt that I came off in a very quickly, overbearing way, so I don't want to do that.
I guess I want to find... Effective ways to try to help her be interested in philosophy without being overbearing and to try and address a lot of the heavy conflicts that we've had, especially dealing with philosophy.
I guess that issue...
I'm just conflicted about it.
I don't know about that. I love you because you make me feel better about myself.
I don't know.
I guess my main thing was just...
I understand kind of what she meant when she was saying that, but I guess I still have felt a little bit of confliction with that, I guess.
I got it. I got it. And can you tell me the...
Sell me on the Brie.
What is it that is making this worth fighting for you?
Well, she's...
She's caring.
She's, you know, kind.
She's gentle.
And she...
I mean, she...
What she doesn't...
When we don't... Even though we don't discuss, she seems to be, you know, very affectionate, very, you know...
Very caring, very, you know, still trying to be supportive, even if she doesn't quite understand exactly what it is that I'm going for, and...
I mean, even if she doesn't necessarily engage in conversation completely, she still is listening to what I'm saying, and still trying to be kind about it, and still being, you know, trying to be understanding about it.
I get the sense of her trying to struggle for it, and I... And the idea of really trying to want to make the relationship work and someone who's really invested in trying to do that, I find that extremely valuable.
And I also, you know, it's just her...
Just her ability to, you know, be compassionate and loving and caring and supportive in so many ways, even though sometimes we do have conflicts in parts of, we do have conflicts on certain issues and it's hard for her to, I guess, get into it, but she still has, you know, still has some willingness to try and work through them.
Right, right. Now, I mean, what I got, Ty, you were saying – sorry, Bree, you were saying sweet, caring, loving, and Ty, you were saying caring, kind, gentle, affectionate, good listener, compassionate, and so on.
These are pretty generic things, and this doesn't mean that they're not real and they're not valuable and they're not good, but – Bree, can you give me sort of an example how Ty would show up as sweet or caring and loving?
Can you give me something sort of an example of that that you can think of?
that's, I guess, somewhat recent or whatever?
It's like, I mean, I know he'll be...
He's, I guess, just...
You know, there for me, like when I need someone, you know, to talk to or if I'm, you know, had a bad day, you know, he's there for me, you know, I can call him or I can talk to him and he's there and he's supportive.
I had an interview like, you know, like a week ago and I guess I was feeling really, you know, bummed out about it.
I can go to him and he's just there to fall back on and to give me encouragement.
Okay, so you had a job interview and then you talked with Ty about it and he was positive or supportive or encouraging?
Yes. Okay.
And can you give me another example?
I'm sorry to be annoying, and I hate to put you on the spot, but I just...
I don't have much luck getting connection with adjectives, if that makes sense.
You know, like positive descriptions.
Oh, you know, he's there for me.
I mean, physically, yes.
But I don't know exactly what that means, so can you...
And I sort of understand it, but if you could give me another example, that would be great.
It's just that, I guess, he just...
He does things...
You know, for me, um, like, yeah, just, I guess, like, little things, like, you know, I guess, yeah, I know, making, like, coffee for me, you know, I just, um,
you know, it's like he doesn't, you know, I guess, you know, pressure me into anything that, you know, I don't want to do, um, I guess...
He just...
It's like, take your time.
There's no rush.
I'm here for you.
I love you. He doesn't pressure me to do something that I don't want to do.
And how do you feel about answering this question or these series of questions?
I mean... It's...
I feel...
I guess it's kind of different because no one ever really kind of asks you to do examples.
So I guess I feel sort of...
I'm not even very used to being very, I guess, open.
So I guess I get kind of...
I guess, you know, nervous.
Sure, sure. I mean, just from where it sits, and I don't know you obviously, but that's just my gut instinct, which doesn't mean anything about it being right or wrong.
But it sounds a little bit like you're reaching for, it's like, he makes me coffee.
You know what I mean? It's like, oh, you mean I actually have to provide some evidence for these adjectives?
He doesn't bully me and he makes me coffee.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
And what I mean is that if that is the sum total of – and I'm not saying it is, right?
But if that were the sum total of the positive things that he brought to the relationship, that would be a pretty small nail to hang a pretty big hat on, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll go and bug him for a while if that's okay, but if you could mull that over, we'll come back.
So, Ty, you've got these wonderful hallmark adjectives, right?
The caring, kind, gentle, affectionate, good listener, compassionate, she can levitate.
And can you give me examples of this in action?
Yeah. Well, when I'm talking about my family and I'm talking about...
Talking about certain issues that are really crucial to me, she will be able to sit there and lend an ear and listen, even though sometimes it's hard to engage about going into topics on her, but she will engage on topics about my family and she'll be supportive about that.
Okay, so I'm going to be annoying again.
Engage and be supportive.
They're just kind of more like adjectives.
And just to give you an example, right?
So I sort of say, okay, well, you know, I say that Christina is very thoughtful.
And it's like, okay, well, how do you know that?
It's like, well, if she has early morning patients and I've been working late the night before, she'll leave me, you know, some yogurt and banana by the bed so I have something to eat when I wake up.
Or she'll remember little things.
She'll leave me notes around the house.
She will be on the lookout for video games I might like even though she doesn't know what the hell I play or enjoy or whatever.
And all little things that she will run the finances because I'm not particularly good at that.
And so she keeps all of that stuff running.
So I could sort of bore you guys for a long time about lists of specific things from which I get the descriptors, if that makes sense.
Okay. And so if you say, you know, and this is just an interesting exercise.
I'm certainly not trying to pick anything apart, right?
But it's an interesting exercise to say, well, I have all of these things that I say about my partner, and what actions do they come from, right?
If that makes sense. Yeah.
So being there for them, being supportive, those are all still descriptors, right?
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean...
I guess when I'm discouraged or something, she'll either come over and...
She'll sit down and we'll talk about it.
And as far as being caring, I guess whenever I was feeling...
you know, sick or anything, she offered, um, she would offer to want to come over and try to, you know, take care of me and, uh, you know, I guess help, you know, get me chicken soup and what have you, or it, or tomato soup in my, in my position.
Um, also, uh, you know, she bought me a coat at one point cause my other coat was getting kind of shabby.
I was wearing it...
I was wearing it out from work and she went and bought me one.
I told her like a long time ago that I liked Blackadder a lot and she went and she actually bought me the series for one of my...
I think it was... Was it Christmas?
I think it was Christmas she bought that for.
And there was...
I mean...
I mean, even she took an interest in some of the things that I like.
You know, how I like metal and I like all these kind of dark foreboding things.
There was an anime series that she was interested in.
She would introduce me into something that was in anime that I liked and that also allowed me to get into something she likes and I like.
So... I mean, she was, I guess, very interested in me in that way.
And being supportive, I mean...
Basically, I mean, she would drive me, like, if I needed to pick up something that was far away, I usually am, like, really stubborn about it.
I'm like, I'll walk.
I'll ride my bike. If it's, like, five miles, I'll do it.
I mean, I've walked, like, ten miles before, and I've done all that stuff, but she'd be, like, trying to be encouraging and wanting to drive me to go pick it up.
She'll, you know, generally be concerned about my health and such things, and, you know...
Trying to remind me of the weather, you know, making sure, looking at, like, sometimes I'll forget my schedule at work or something like that, and I have to call in instead of doing that.
She's, like, kept my schedule in her, like, notebook, and she'll, you know, call me to remind me just in case if I forget or something.
All right. Okay, that's good stuff.
And, Ty, can you tell me about the stuff that you admire or respect about Bree?
Um... I admire her...
Her basic...
I guess I... I admire her ability to...
I guess... I don't know if this is just an adjective, though.
I guess I admire her ability to always be, I guess...
I don't know.
Just... And generally, I don't know, she's always very...
And just to interrupt you and give you a second to collect your thoughts, I don't mean by this to put you on the spot and say, ah, look, it's really...
It's hard for every couple to do this, just so you know, right?
I mean, it's hard for...
Because we just get used to a rhythm of things, right?
And we just take it moment by moment and day by day and so on.
But it is a useful thing.
And because it's not on the tip of your tongue doesn't mean that there's nothing you admire about her, obviously, right?
It just means that... It's not something that is easily accessible for you because you kind of take it for granted or it's just something that is – it's like gravity.
We don't notice it, right? But it's usually a good idea to notice it, especially when you're either deciding to go forward or not go forward with the relationship.
So I just wanted to sort of point that out because this is not a game show or anything.
If you don't answer within five seconds, you don't get the free car.
So I just wanted to point that out while you were sort of getting your thoughts together.
Yeah, um, well, I mean...
I guess I admire her, um...
I guess her... I guess her...
I don't know. Like, again, I think this is it, but her kindness, I don't know.
Is that an adjective? I don't know.
I just... Her overall ability to, I guess...
I guess it's kind of almost...
Her ability to be, I guess, so, I guess in a way...
I don't know if this is the right way to say it.
Nurturing or...
just like it's kind of I guess generosity in a way um And her generosity and her affection, and I guess I admire her...
I guess also her acute sense of understanding of certain...
I guess her intelligence in the way that she's able to pick out certain things that are...
That I guess...
I don't know if this is just...
They align with me, but certain flaws in society and in thinking and her...
Her interest in trying to...
I guess...
Trying to get...
I guess get rid of...
Not really... I guess get rid of the...
Those kinds of barriers or problems.
I mean... She's very perceptive in that way.
She's able... I admire her intelligence in that way of able to...
Picking apart certain hypocritical parts in society.
I, you know, just, and...
I guess it's...
She's a very, I guess, um...
I mean open, not so much as in, you know, telling other people's emotions, but I guess open-heartedness, or just kind of in her way of being able to, um...
I guess when I'm around friends and stuff like that, or I guess you could say quote friends or workers, she's able to, I guess, kind of put a positive spin on it.
She's always very playful and kind, and I guess I kind of admire that ability to be positive in those kinds of social situations.
You mean relative to deterministic, nihilistic death metal guy?
Is that right? Yeah, yeah.
She's brighter than midnight.
Got it. Okay. Got it.
And, you know, and I admire her, I guess her determination, even though sometimes she even though sometimes she would get stifled, she still continues to try, you know, A, still wanting to try with the relationship, B, still,
still wanting to try with, you know, like, we've been both out of college and trying to get jobs and stuff like that, and, you know, being determined to, you know, Always being, I guess, diligent and determined to try to, you know, be better and get better at things.
and I guess I admire that about her and and her...
And that and...
and understanding of truth in some way, even though sometimes when it reaches the personal, it can get conflicted.
She still at some level really does have a desire to understand the truth, though sometimes it can be painful. - Right, right, okay.
And Bree, you know what's coming now, right?
She'd been frantically making a list.
Okay. He's tall.
He's strong. He lowers the seat.
So what have you got?
Well, he is definitely a courageous person.
Right. You know, to...
He's...
I guess he stood up to his parents and wasn't going to let the cycle of abuse continue.
He stood up to them and that's so courageous of him because I know it must have been terrifying.
To have to do that and to be, you know, on one's own and, you know, he's able to just open up as, you know, a person, you know, especially in these last, you know, I guess about maybe six or eight months.
I mean, he's just able to open up to a whole community of people in the You know, internet, you know, that are, you know, that are just like, you know, thousands of miles away.
And it's just able to open up to these people.
And I'm so, I guess, you know, still shy that, you know, it's just, it's something that I look up to in him.
I guess it's, you know, a lot of the same things.
It's like, you know, he has this also, I guess, This thirst for knowledge and to continue to find the truth and to be able to understand our relationship in the world, it just doesn't stop.
He never becomes stagnant.
He keeps evolving and being, I guess, dynamic as a person.
It's just amazing how he just continues to keep on going and to keep, you know, fighting as a person.
Right, right, right.
Okay, so he's a lover and a fighter.
That's good. Now, Ty, you know that you can't make Brie as interested in philosophy as you are.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, she might as well sign you up for ballet lessons.
Unless that's your thing, in which case we can switch the metaphor.
No, no. It's not my thing.
Okay, good. Because it wouldn't go with the whole death metal thing, just in case you're wondering.
That whole lexical set doesn't really work together.
So you can't make her interested in philosophy, the metaphysics, the epistemology, whatever it is that's cooking in your brain that's currently got you juiced.
You just... Right.
Right. Right. Um, I, I do find it, I guess it doesn't get as juiced and flowing as his, but, I mean, there are some things that, you know, I definitely like, you know, listening to, I guess, more than others.
Like, I guess I like it, you know, especially when you talk about, I guess, religion, like, I get kind of into that.
I mean, probably because I can just sort of relate to it, but when it comes to, I guess, economics and business, I totally, you know, I have a hard time of, I guess, being zoned in because I've never been interested in business or economics.
Why should you be? I mean, it's just a matter of personal taste, right?
Right. So, but, you know, the way that his brain kind of seized on this kind of thinking, it's not, again, I'm not saying it's not interesting to you, but it's not something that you're, because, I mean, Ty, you're a pretty driven and intense guy, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Right, I mean, if you ever short-circuit, you're taking down a couple of city blocks worth of lights, right?
Just because you're pretty high voltage, right?
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So, and your mind races and, you know, you seize on stuff like a bear trap, right?
Definitely, yeah.
And, Bree, that's not your particular nature, right?
I mean, again, I don't want to over-categorize, but I'm just sort of trying to understand this aspect of the conflict where it's like, philosophy, philosophy, you know, that part, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, okay. And in terms of the self-knowledge aspect of philosophy or psychology, Ty is, I mean, you'll like rip up sidewalks with your bare hand to get at self-knowledge.
And if I understand your approach, Bree, it's a little bit like you'll take it a little slower, if that makes sense?
Yeah, I guess it's, yeah, I guess, I mean, I have so many, I guess, interests in a lot of things.
It's just, you know, I just don't stay focused on, you know, one thing the whole entire time.
I kind of sort of, I guess, bounce off the walls with a whole tons of topics that I guess I get into.
Right, but you don't focus in in the way and just like, you know, I'll get this knowledge until it kills me that he does, right?
Right. Okay, so that's just a difference of style of personality that is not right or wrong, right?
It's just different, right?
Right. I mean, Christina enjoys talking about philosophy, but she's not sitting there reading philosophy, right?
Right. Right. I mean, it's an interesting topic to her.
I'm not sure that I'd want to ask her exactly how she ranks it relative to, say, a good crossword, but it is something that she's happy to talk about if I'm fired up about it, right?
So, for you, Ty, is it, and we just touched on this earlier, it's not the lack of philosophy that's the fundamental issue.
Is it, for you, the difference in your approach to psychology, or is it something else?
Um... I guess it's just, I guess maybe my approach to it is, I guess that's what I'm worried about, is that maybe I'm going at it wrong, and that was the thing, and that maybe I'm getting the wrong impressions, which is why I posted on the thread that maybe that, you know, I was being perhaps overbearing, I'm not sure.
Well, Brie, is he being overbearing?
Huh? What? No miming.
I don't get that. Yeah, sometimes...
I guess when he's, like, talking to me on the phone, you know, it just seems like, you know, you've got...
You know, you kind of need to read this.
You know, you need to listen to it.
You know, I guess it did seem like...
I guess it was...
I told him it was, like, you know, kind of being forced down my throat.
So, at times, yeah, it does seem, you know...
I guess he does seem overbearing.
Right. And so for you, when you feel this urgency, Tai Fabri, to read or to understand something, what is driving that urgency?
What's at the root of that?
I mean, what happens if it takes her a while or it takes her a week or two or whatever or whoever it is, right?
The first thing that happens to me is like this wave of anxiety that she's just not interested, that there's no, you know, she's just completely disconnected from it and that she's not, you know, interested in it at all.
And what does that mean?
Let's say, I don't think it is the case, but let's say that is the case.
What then? So what?
To me, then it means that I'm undertaking this philosophy and psychology that is completely rearranging everything in my life and is kind of rearranging the way I live my life.
And her to be completely disassociated from that would kind of mean I wouldn't be in a relationship.
I'd be alone. Right, so it's like, read this thread, or our relationship is doomed?
Something like that, yeah.
I can't imagine how that would end up with you being overbearing.
I mean, if it's for you, like, for God's sake, woman, I'm hanging under a girder by a thread.
You know, help me, or I'm going to fall from the gorge to my death.
I mean, I could see that that might come across as a little intense.
Yeah, yeah.
Now, have you ever had, Ty, have you ever had people get really anxious when you don't want to do things that they want to do?
Or get really aggressive or get really overbearing in this way?
Yeah, I mean, definitely there's been times when, you know, I guess I could relate it to, you know, if I didn't want to do something, you know, like...
I guess my folks would want me to do or if something like that, they would definitely be extremely overbearing and being like, well, you should take an interest in this.
You should do this.
Religion being the chief thing and constantly...
So when your parents were overbearing in trying to get you to do something, you ended up being very enthusiastic and happy about doing it and that's why you're trying to reproduce that in your relationship?
Because it worked so well for your parents?
Is that the strategy that you're taking or is there some other approach that I missed?
No, it's just now I'm realizing it.
When you asked for that example, I'm realizing that's kind of the same thing I'm doing.
No, I would totally resist them, and then eventually I would be like, well, I'm living under their house, and they're being authoritative and threatening, so I have no choice now, but...
But no, yeah, I totally would disengage from that.
Right, so you're doing exactly what won't work.
And when I say won't work, I don't mean that she likes podcasts or anything like that.
But what I mean is that you're taking an approach that is guaranteed to make you, Bree, less receptive to what it is that you're interested in.
I mean, no matter how much you'll try and tough it out, Bree, and say, well, I'll find the best in this somehow, you know?
I mean, even though he's overbearing, by God, I'm going to find some positive stuff here.
You're going to try and do that, but deep down, nobody likes to be pushed that way, right?
Right. It's just, no one likes to be told, you know, I guess, you know, what to do.
It just doesn't work because you grow resentment, I guess, for the other person.
Yeah, and you may get some sort of immediate compliance, you know?
Like, I'll sit here in front of the goddamn computer and I'll read through this thread, but by God, I'm plotting my vengeance for later.
It's probably not quite that extreme, but...
The way you're laughing, it probably is not that extreme then.
Or, you know, you'll go to your happy place, I don't know, Denzel Washington on a beach doing a laundry list, I don't know, right?
Whatever it is that is good for you that way.
But you definitely won't, I mean, he may sort of intense you into compliance, but it's not the same as being enthusiastic, right?
Right. Right, right.
So, that RTR thing didn't really take so well for you, is that right, Ty?
You know, the...
Don't force people to...
Don't take out your anxiety on other people, right?
So if you feel anxious, right, then the solution, in my opinion, and again, it's just my opinion, you can do with it what you like, but Ty, if you feel anxious, what does RTR suggest rather than read this thread or it's all over?
Basically to tell her that I feel anxious and to talk about it.
Right, because it's not about the threat, and it's not about the podcast, and it's not about FDR, and it's not about any book, and it's not about any philosophy.
If you feel anxious, then the thing to do is to sit down with your girlfriend and say, I feel this overwhelming anxiety and this need to get you to read this thread, and I don't know why, and the solution is not for you to read the thread, because we've got to deal with the anxiety, not with the symptom, right?
Yeah. Definitely.
And how does that strike you, Bri, as a different way of approaching it?
Well, it definitely doesn't seem overbearing or being forced to do anything.
It's actually trying to figure out what's going on at the heart of the problem.
Why he's feeling anxious and why he wants me to read the post or the thread.
And I can feel that you feel ambivalent about this because it's like, oh shit, he's going to open up more.
Oh man. Yeah.
Can't we find a way to nail him up just a little?
Back to the way he was, you know, just where he came out once in a while?
Like Old Faithful or something?
But I mean, even though it can sometimes be a drag, frankly, to talk about anxiety, it's a lot better.
I mean – and this is for you, Bree.
Again, this is just my advice, whatever, work with it or don't.
But for you, if you comply with him, that's not good for your relationship.
Okay.
Right?
Because if he comes and says, you've got to read the thread, you've got to listen to this part, and you sense that, and I bet you do, it's coming like 10,000 watts off his forehead, right?
It's like me on a sunny day.
So you get that he gets real anxious about it, and you feel that insistence, right?
Right. And so rather than you sort of saying, okay, I'll read it, or I'll read it tomorrow, or I'm going off with Denzel, whatever it is that you do in that moment, to say to him, I feel this real insistence coming off you, and I don't know what's going on.
Okay. Right, because if you just either give in or fight about it or whatever, then I don't think that's...
Well, I know that that's not particularly helpful.
I also know that it's something that's not quite honest about it because if you feel that he's got a lot of anxiety about a particular topic and then that obviously makes you anxious and you've got a choice, right?
You say, okay, well, I can appease him by doing what he says and then it'll kind of go away for a while.
I can say to him that, you know, you're coming off all kinds of intense here right now and it's making me feel kind of anxious and I definitely want to go and read the thread because I know that that's going to sort of calm you down as far as your anxiety goes but I don't think that's a good strategy for us in the long run to avoid your anxiety because his anxiety about you not being interested in philosophy has nothing to do with whether or not you should read the thread or go to a podcast or whatever,
right? Right.
All that's happening is he's feeling anxious.
But it doesn't mean that you should do anything.
In fact, if you do something to appease his anxiety, you're only teaching him that that kind of intensity works and you're guaranteeing that he's going to keep doing it, right?
Right. So, if you can get...
You know they have these crossing guards, right?
They have these stop signs.
Right. I suggest next time you drive, just grab one.
And you can have one each.
I think, Bree, you might need a slightly larger one.
You might need one from an airport.
But when he comes in, it's like, oh my god, it's doom, it's death, it's disaster.
If you don't read this thread, I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue.
Then the thing to do is to not leap up and say, I'll read the thread, or not to say, like, don't you push me around, or whatever, right?
But just hold up the stop sign and say, okay, you know, deep breath.
What is going on? What is the scenario?
What happens in your mind if I don't read this thread?
But if you guys are managing his anxiety by jumping into action, that anxiety will never be manageable.
All you'll be doing is keeping it at bay, like a wolf in a room that you've got to keep tasering.
It can't put a stake through its heart.
Ouch. No.
There is that thing that says, you know, where we teach people how to treat us, and if, you know, for you, Bree, if you respond to his anxiety by doing the action which he says is going to decrease his anxiety or implies, you're just guaranteeing that the, you know, it's like heroin, right? You can get rid of the discomfort by taking the heroin, but it's not like you're solving the problem of addiction, right?
Right, because it'll just, you know, come back.
He's like, hey, you know what's a great way to get rid of my anxiety?
It's just to pressure my girlfriend to do something, right?
And then magically, right, the anxiety goes away, but it always comes back.
And it will definitely increase over time.
And I can guarantee you that if you take this strategy of, you know, and I'm just sorry to be picking on you.
I'm sure there's other stuff, but I just know about the one side here, and I don't want to take all you guys all night, but...
If you take this strategy of the short-term gratification, right, so Ty wants you to read the thread and he's all anxious about it, and Bree, you then go and read the thread and you comply.
If you do that, your relationship won't work out for sure.
I mean, you'd either break up or, God forbid, you'll get married and have kids and teach them this strategy too and be very unhappy, right?
No. Right, you don't want that.
I mean, you don't want that. Yeah, no, I don't want to continue that, the piece of the cycle.
No, no, for sure. And so the choice does come down to me whether your relationship works or not.
Obviously, I'd be thrilled if it works.
That would be great. But the only chance that I would say that it has of really working is if you start to just undo this strategy where somebody says jump and the other person says how high.
Okay. That's all I got to say for the moment, so if you have any questions or comments, believe it or not, this is a relatively short one.
So, I mean, that's just the main thing that I wanted to point out.
No, other than that, I think I definitely got a lot from it, and I got a lot to think about and to talk about.
Yeah, the one person in your life that you can talk about Open your fears and your anxieties.
That's got to be your partner, right?
It's got to be your lover. That's the person that you don't have to manipulate and pressure.
It's got to be the person where you just rip your heart wide open and say, this is sort of what's going on for me right now.
But if you try and get them to manage your anxiety by changing their actions, you just end up building an ever smaller kind of cell for them to live in until they're just going to bust out.
Yeah, and I guess the tricky thing for me was that I guess I didn't recognize that I was doing that until we started to have this discussion, which I think, in a way, I'm glad we had the discussion.
In another way, I guess I'm feeling anxiety about how I didn't spot that ahead of time.
Well, I mean, but you both were avoiding it, right?
I mean, you didn't spot it, but this is what we can do for each other as lovers, right?
As boyfriend and girlfriend, right?
Because she needs the stop sign for you to run full tilt boogie into, right?
Yeah. And then when you hear that gong, you know, that ringing noise and so on, and then you look up and you go like, whoa, what happened, right?
And she's like, well, I just didn't comply to manage your anxiety, right?
So now we can talk about your anxiety and I can get you some ice, right?
Or something like that. So this is something that your partner has to do for you, right?
We can't see these kinds of unconscious things ourselves.
That's one of the reasons why relationships are so beautiful, right?
Because we can point out to each other the things that we simply cannot see for ourselves, right?
I mean, my wife can say, Steph, you've got a honking pimple on your forehead.
I can't see it, right?
But she can, right?
So that's what the stop sign thing is so good for, right?
Because when you run full tilt boogie into the stop sign, and the stop sign is nothing that's aggressive.
It's just, you know, you got to read the thread.
No. Actually, I don't, right?
But I'm certainly interested in why you think it's so important that I do, right?
Let's talk about your feelings that's driving you to say that, but obviously it has nothing to do with me actually reading a thread, right?
Because that's not the problem, right?
So, I mean, don't feel bad about not seeing it.
I mean, she was, you know, with all due respect, you were kind of helping him not see this, right?
Because you would just be like, okay, I'll read the thread or whatever, right?
Yeah, I mean, I didn't see it either.
I just kind of figured, you know, well, let me just, you know, read this and, you know, I guess this will make him, you know, I guess calm down or, you know, be happy and, you know, I guess just appease him, but, you know, just continues to come back, you know, with something else. Yeah, I sort of got this image like you're standing in the, I don't know, like the African feel.
A rhino is coming at you, right?
And you're like, ooh, I have this tranquilizer gun here called compliance, you know?
I just have to aim right between the eyes.
He slows down.
And, you know, you can sort of, there we go.
All better, right? So, I mean, there is that thing where that intensity comes up and we want to diffuse it through compliance.
But if you continue to do that, for sure your relationship isn't going to work out because, you know, That you just, you can't respect yourself, you can't respect your partner, and you're treating him like he's too fragile, right?
I mean, as you say, he's a tall and husky specimen, and you don't need to treat him as if he can't run into a stop sign.
He sure can, because FDR is full of fright, and he survived this long, so I'm sure that he will be able to, and you know, one of the things that's so admirable about Ty is that, you know, he will run into that stop sign, and he'll say thanks, right?
It may not be right away, but he sure will, right?
Right. Definitely.
Yeah, this has really been very helpful, so I really do appreciate stuff.
Oh, you're absolutely welcome. I mean, you guys should talk to each other now, enough of listening to Canadian guys.
So, yeah, go talk.
Let me know how it goes.
Definitely, definitely. I certainly wish you guys all the best, but I think this is the area that I'd focus on if I were you.
Alright, definitely. Alright.
Thanks, guys. I'll talk to you soon.
▲
Export Selection