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June 13, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:29:19

1084 Authority and Certainty Part 1 (Conference)

When to defer, and when to trust yourself...

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	All right. Okay, I'm back.
	All right. So, Nate.
	I hope you didn't mind me mentioning this thing before.
	That was sort of been my experience, and I didn't sort of like to bring it up right away, just in case it turns out to be nothing in particular, but it was just something that I was sort of noticing.
	And so, when I said that...
	That I was trying to teach people how to think in the anarchic way with this sort of two sides of the conference table thing.
	When I was trying to get people to think that way, then you said, well, why provide them with answers at all then, right?
	Yeah. So help me understand that bit.
	Well, I was kind of just referring to your first book.
	You had said you were trying not to give answers, but just ask questions.
	Okay, help me understand.
	And again, you could have a good point, but just help me understand because it's interesting because I don't get it as much from you overall, but I do get it from some people and I just want to sort of understand it.
	Because I don't understand that thinking, and that could be my own limitation, of course.
	So for you, it's like, well, Steph said in a previous book that he wasn't going to provide answers, so why would he provide answers in the next book?
	Right. Right, because in that book I said, I don't want to give you all the answers in this book because it's a lot of fun to explore anarchism, which I'm going to do in my next book, in practice, right?
	In other words, this book is about establishing the ambivalence.
	The next book is about going to be answering some questions and teaching you how to think in more detail in this way, right?
	Right, and you're...
	I've often heard you say that if you want to teach someone how to think, you don't give them answers, right?
	Well, you don't give them all the answers, for sure, but you do have to give them some answers, right?
	Right. I guess so.
	Maybe I've just taken that to the extreme.
	Well, but, I mean, what worked for you, right?
	Uh... Well, what worked for me was, I guess, yeah, getting all the answers up front, or not all the answers, but just getting some answers up front and realizing that there were other answers and then, you know, that opens the door to, well, if that's true, then, you know, that just gets you thinking, I guess.
	So maybe, I don't know why that didn't, I don't think it would occur to me in the moment and well actually having thought about it on the way home about You're...
	And first of all, let me...
	Let me say that I really...
	There's two distinct feelings that I feel right now.
	One of bitches is a good feeling that...
	It's kind of like an optimistic type feeling that I wouldn't normally feel, but for some reason now I'm noticing this...
	But I'm glad that you feel comfortable being honest about that with me, the feeling annoying, because that's hard to tell some people, I guess. Well, and I certainly don't start out with the absolute knowledge that you're being annoying.
	I could be highly ambivalent about putting answers in or not and find your question to be annoying because of my own ambivalence, right?
	That's possible, but you did say that I don't know if it's all the questions I've asked over the past few weeks.
	I don't think that's the case, but maybe I'm wrong.
	No, it's not been all of them, but certainly an unusual number, I guess you could say.
	But that doesn't – again, that doesn't because maybe you just see something in me that I don't, that nobody else is and zeroing in on.
	It could be, right? It could be.
	So, I mean, that's why when I bring it up, I sort of want to understand what your thinking was in asking the question, right?
	Because you could have something that is really useful that would be very helpful for me, right?
	Right. Right, and if I understand this correctly, the reason, or at least the theory as to why, one theory as to why you're finding the questions annoying is that they're kind of overly simplistic and obvious questions, you know, that anybody would have thought of, or perhaps not well thought out questions.
	I'm not sure I'd put it that nicely.
	Which, again, would be just my feeling.
	Again, like it doesn't mean anything.
	I don't think it's like that they're not well thought out because I don't find that in general, though it could certainly happen, but I don't find it in general that I get annoyed at questions that just aren't thought out, right?
	Because, I mean, all questions to some degree aren't thought out because we don't know the answer and all, right?
	So is it that maybe they're questions that are so simple that It's kind of insulting to ask, maybe?
	I didn't feel insulted because I didn't feel offended.
	Okay, well, those are my two ideas, but can you...
	Well, okay. I mean, I can certainly tell you what my emotional experience was and then you can sort of see.
	I felt some irritation and I also felt like I was in a sort of impossible situation.
	And the way that I would characterize it is if you're standing in front of the biggest cathedral in the world that towers over you and someone who can see perfectly well comes up to you and says, can you tell me where the cathedral is?
	What would you feel? Frustrated.
	Well, you wouldn't know exactly what to do, right?
	Right, I don't know. Maybe they mean another cathedral or...
	No, no, they mean this cathedral.
	Like it's, I don't know, it's the cathedral, whatever it is, right?
	They mean this, like, can you tell me where the biggest cathedral in the world is?
	And you're standing right in front of the biggest cathedral in the world, and there's a sign right next to the guy saying, this is the biggest cathedral in the world in 50 languages.
	You know what I mean, like 50 languages, right?
	It would be hard to know what to do, right?
	Right. And that's what I mean, but it would also be kind of irritating, right?
	Right. Yes.
	Yes, it would be. And tell me why.
	Well, because it's just so obvious.
	It's right there. Yes.
	Go on. And maybe you feel like you're in an impossible situation because if you just sort of point to it, then you're in a position of making them look stupid, I guess. Well, it's tough.
	Yeah, no, I certainly do understand that because it's kind of tough, right?
	It's like, what do I say?
	Right. Right.
	And when you said that...
	That I'd been asking questions that were annoying.
	I had this wave of horror over me.
	Horror! Oh no! And that was my first experience.
	It was just the wave of horror.
	And that lasted until maybe the freeway.
	And then I got on the freeway and I started a recording because for some reason that's how I've been able to sort things out.
	I remember us talking at the barbecue about that you gave an example of A conference where you ask if there's anybody that has any questions about the subject at hand, and the guy gets up there and starts making long speeches about something completely unrelated.
	And then the truth is he just wants to get up there and talk because he wants to seem sort of...
	I don't know.
	Because he wants to be involved...
	Right, and I didn't consider that to be the case in my opinion.
	I didn't think that's what you were up to.
	Well, the reason that came to mind is because what I feel, have felt, or experienced with you over the past several weeks, actually, is this tension.
	And I don't think it's just between you and me.
	I think it's just you and everybody.
	And, of course, you mentioned all the podcasts.
	You even did podcasts on tension around that time.
	So I kind of wrote it off as that.
	But it sort of persisted, this tension, and I couldn't tell exactly if it was just me or what.
	And then you would come in and talk about a problem you were having or something you're ambivalent about, and then I feel this large degree of tension Like, wow, I really, really want to help because he's helped me so much and I've been wanting to help people too.
	And then I feel, oh no, I have nothing to contribute.
	I can't help. So I try to help anyways and maybe these questions come out in that moment.
	Oh, I see. I see.
	So when I was talking about, I mean, the challenge with the book Practical Anarchy is that I have to provide some answers, right?
	Because otherwise it's just like, you know, think in terms of reciprocity and voluntarism and everything will become clear.
	And it's not that easy, right?
	It took me 20 years to come up with these answers, so I'm not going to pretend that there's some mere framework that is going to answer people's questions about anarchy.
	Think of it like this, and everything will become clear.
	Just because people don't know how to think like that, right?
	So I have to put some kind of answers in the book.
	Because otherwise, I'm asking people to do too much.
	and Right. You present a problem in the first book, and then you present a solution in the second one.
	It doesn't have to be the solution, but you present a solution.
	Right. But at the same time, if you want to say, here's how a stateless society can work...
	Clearly, you could never be done, right?
	Right. You know, it's like, okay, so those are cocaine vending machines in the kindergarten, but what about the heroin injecting stations in the nurse's office or whatever, right?
	I mean, there's some damn thing, right?
	It's the international ownership of certain kinds of fish that are migratory.
	You know, like, you literally could spend the rest of your life Yeah,
	I have enough answers to show that this way of thinking works.
	But I also have to avoid going into such a detail of answer that people start focusing on the answers rather than how to think in terms of the problems.
	Ugh. It's really complicated and I've gone back and forth with examples.
	Like I start off by taking one example all the way through, which is national defense.
	Say, okay, here's national defense, top to bottom, back to front, all the way through as much detail as I can come up with.
	And then I progressively remove layers and I say, and here's the principles that I'm using to solve this problem.
	And then I present the next problem and I do slightly less and say, here's what I'm not applying to this problem, but here's how to apply it.
	And then I do so. I'm weaning people off the solutions, right?
	So that by the end, it's a paragraph or two and hopefully they can come up with their own additional solutions, right?
	Wow, that's a good way to do it.
	Yeah, it's horrible. It's a horrible way to do it.
	It's the best way for the reader.
	It's the worst thing for the writer.
	Why do you think that is?
	Oh, because it's so complicated.
	I mean, it really is.
	Knowing what to keep in, knowing when to give an answer, knowing when to give a principle, and when to tie it into an answer.
	And, I mean, it's, you know, weaning people off the state is a challenging thing, to say the least, right?
	And it's a transition book, right?
	I don't have transition books.
	I've not written transition books before.
	From here to here, right?
	Because, I mean, maybe a little bit of untruth, but UPB was...
	You know, here's ethics, as I see it.
	I wasn't trying to wean people off one thing and put them onto another thing, right?
	Yeah. That's...
	That's... I don't know if I could ever do that.
	Oh, it's horrible. It's like writing a program that has to be backwards compatible to DOS 1.0, but run in Vista.
	64-bit. I mean, it's horrible.
	I mean, it's really tough, right?
	And that's why it's been so draining, this book.
	It's a real balancing act.
	I can imagine. Yeah, so, I mean...
	So, for me... And you know this, right, from chatting with people in the chat room.
	I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, right?
	Which is, you know, you establish some principles, you provide some answers, you ask them to answer the questions themselves, you ask them what their definitions are, and so on, right?
	Right. You don't just say to people, you know, well, anarchy works, statism sucks, and if you don't agree with me, I'm going to get great to kick you out.
	Oh, that doesn't work? No.
	Well, you know, right? Because you know the delicacy of transitioning knowledge, right?
	Yes. Oh, do I ever?
	And I've also seen you in the chat window give answers to people.
	And that's not bad, right?
	I mean, you're trusting your instincts and I show your instincts are perfectly right, but I see you give answers to people, right?
	Yes. And then you say, well, how did we get there or what are the principles or whatever, right?
	Yes. And when I do give answers, I sometimes go, uh-oh, I just gave an answer instead of asking a question.
	Well, but this is around trusting your instincts, right?
	The transfer of knowledge is complicated stuff, right?
	Right. Because if you don't give any answers, then you're just going to frustrate people because they don't believe that it works, right?
	Right. It's usually worthwhile to show them the finished product so they see what it is that they're getting, right?
	By investing the time into figuring it out, right?
	You know, when you're done, like if you...
	Karate classes will often start with the karate demonstration, right?
	Right. Now, I don't know how to get there exactly or how to do it, but I can see what's at the end, right?
	Right. Right.
	And then you go through the process of recreating that.
	It's big, messy, challenging, instinct-ridden, complicated stuff, right?
	And then once you arrive at the answers and you've gotten there through the path of knowing how to get there, or through the path of being taught all the moves, and then when you get there...
	You get to sort of where I am right now.
	Well, not so much lately, but where I am right now is not remembering where I came from.
	Right. And see, that's the real challenge of learning, which is once you've learned, you forget how hard it was to learn, right?
	Right. Right.
	It's like, come on, this is obvious, right?
	And I have to keep reminding myself, you know?
	It's not obvious until you get it.
	And even after you get it, it's easy to forget how hard it is.
	That's kind of why I wanted to start doing the roleplay thing or, you know, coming in as guest or just doing roleplay on purpose or whatever.
	Right, and that will certainly help.
	And of course, I see people in the chatroom, I mean, clearly working with two different definitions and not asking for definitions, right?
	I mean, it's just reminders, right?
	Because it's easy for us to forget how hard it was to learn all of this stuff.
	Then it's easy to forget to apply it, right?
	Because the culmination of wisdom is the intermittent habit of forgetting that you're wise completely, right?
	Right. And this, of course, is even more true in terms of personal growth, right?
	I mean, it's easy for you to feel the horror, to get frustrated with yourself, to fall back into social anxiety.
	It's not as perpetual as it was, and it's not as deep, but it still happens, right?
	Oh, yes. Right, so that forgetting that occurs is, for you, highly complex, right?
	Right. You're there, then you're back, then you're forward, then you're sideways.
	It's a hurly-burly, right?
	Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think I wrote that process out recently, and I could have gone on forever.
	Right, so you know how incredibly complicated it is to transfer even some fairly technical knowledge.
	About anarchism and also because what we do is so closely tied into the family, consciously or unconsciously, we have the additional volatility of tapping into people's personal histories as well, right?
	Oh yeah. So you know all of this complexity very, very well, right?
	Yes. So then when you say, why would you put any answers in at all?
	To a guy whose podcast series started with answers and then worked back into principles while providing new answers with some additional principles and so on, right?
	When you give me something like, well, why would you include any answers at all?
	It feels to me literally like you're standing in front of the sign that says this is the biggest cathedral in the world and you can't see nine-tenths of the sky and you're saying, where is the biggest cathedral in the world?
	Because the complexity is completely evident to you, right?
	Right? Yeah.
	So I, yeah.
	So it would seem to me that you're not that comfortable with the complexity, or there's something about the complexity that is troubling you.
	And you have this almost angry urge to make it simple.
	And I associate that, again, this is just by associations, Nate, but I associate that with really annoying parents, and specifically with religious people.
	Because religious people will just say, if you're sad or depressed or anxious, they'll say, smile, because Jesus loves you.
	Right. It's like, look, it's really simple.
	That's just the way it is.
	Just turn that frown upside down, right?
	Or people, I mean, because religion and statism and other things too, but religion and statism are idiot answers to the complex questions.
	How do you alleviate poverty?
	Holy shit, it's a nightmare.
	Right. I mean, it's a really complicated nightmare.
	I mean, how do you get someone to quit drugs, quit smoking?
	It's really complex, right?
	And yet, you know, people, willpower, you know, like they'll just break it down to something, and I'm not saying you're in this category, which is why it was annoying, right?
	But they'll break it down to just something retarded.
	Well, how do we deal with the problem of the poverty?
	I don't know, fuck, it's really complex and it bothers me and I'm anxious about it, so screw it.
	Let's just give a bunch of guys a bunch of guns and tell them to shift some goddamn money around and say that the problem is solved.
	Right. Or tell an alcoholic if he wants to quit drinking to, you know, submit his will to a higher power and attend AA meetings twice a week.
	Well, yeah. Well, except it's even – at least that says it's complex and he needs help.
	Right. Right?
	But it's just like saying just put down the bottle.
	Right. Why do you even pick that bottle up?
	It's not good for you. Right?
	Well, it's complicated, right?
	Right. Because the only alternative to it being complicated is that people are just retarded, and they're not.
	People are very smart, right?
	Right. And so, when you say to me, well, why would you have any questions?
	Why would you have any answers in there at all?
	You're tempting me to look at you as retarded.
	And I won't do it. Because I know you're not.
	In which case then, something else is going on.
	Because this is not complexity that you're unaware of, right?
	Right. You know, and particularly because you've been trying to help people.
	Good for you, right? But you've been really trying to help people.
	It's tough, right? Right. Oh, yeah.
	You win some, you lose some, you kick yourself.
	You know, it's like trying to catch frickin' greased fish with your bare hands when somebody's randomly dropping vaults into the water.
	Yeah, I can think of a few people that have really frustrated me.
	Oh, sure. And the worst thing is, when do you just bail out on the frustration, right?
	Yeah, that's Especially if they keep putting it back in front of you.
	My mother used to do this, and again, this is all my baggage, right?
	So this is probably why I was feeling stronger than I should have, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
	It doesn't mean it's right either, but it just means that, you know, my mother used to have this...
	She'd just go into these things, you know, like, you know, oh, you know, if a woman wants a man to do something, she just sits on his lap, she snuggles up to his neck, and she breathes into his ear what she wants him to do, and by golly, he's just gonna...
	Like, she would just reduce it to this retarded...
	Coy manipulation. And it's like, well, why the fuck can't you sustain a relationship for more than three months, you crazy old bat, if you're so fucking wise about how to do it?
	Oh, yeah. You know, if it's so fucking easy, then why did you get divorced a month after I was born?
	Yeah. So I know that you have a subtle, intelligent, brilliant mind, right?
	So when you say to me, why would you put any answers in at all?
	It's obvious. Just don't put any answers in.
	I know that you're fully aware of the complexity, but I feel that you're using me to avoid something in yourself.
	And that's a ridiculously convoluted answer.
	Totally anti-RTR. I'm totally aware of that.
	But if we could just hold on to it for a second.
	Just because I've done this six million times with people, I have a little bit more trust in my instincts.
	And of course, RTR after a while is learning to trust your own conclusions.
	So it feels to me like the complexity of the question...
	Of how do you teach someone about anarchy?
	Must cause you some kind of anxiety.
	Yeah, I would say not just some kind.
	A fairly significant amount.
	Because I get these...
	Well, today, for example, I get to work and I do my usual work routine in the morning and I find some time, I get on the boards and there's this post from this guy who...
	Says, well, why is, you know, rape is not rape if you're submitting to rape, basically.
	And then he moved that to taxes or something like that?
	Right, and he was saying, well, if you submit or comply, then you're supporting their rape.
	Oh, it's just the guy who later came into the chat room talking about, you know, like...
	You either flee or you submit or you fight.
	And I assume that's the same guy.
	I don't know why. It's unlikely it would be a different guy.
	But yeah, sure.
	And you feel anxious about that, right?
	Yeah, and I sort of logged into the chat room and posted a link before I answered the post.
	I posted a link to it saying that I feel really frustrated by this post.
	And... I think I tried to lay out why I thought it was frustrating because of what he's implying that the victim is at fault or the...
	That complying with violence negates the fact that it's violence or it changes the moral nature of the violence or something like that.
	Well, sorry. No, I don't think that's why you were annoyed, in my opinion.
	I don't think that's why you were annoyed.
	No, I don't either. I mean, we always get criticized in this community because people come charging in with these moral theories, right?
	Yeah. And we say, how's the practice of that going, right?
	Because everything's simple in theory, right?
	Well, we all just stop paying taxes and there's no government, right?
	Right. Or it's flee, it's surrender and obey, or it's fight and die, right?
	So you either flee your country, you submit and are a mindless zombie taxpayer complicit with the murder of foreigners through military taxation, right?
	Or you fight and perhaps your smoking corpse leads mankind through a doorway to a free future, right?
	Right. And that's why I asked the guy, because he said, well, you can only surrender, fight, or flee, right?
	And clearly he's not surrendering because he's talking about this, right?
	And he's at an anarchist chat room.
	Right. So he says, you can only do this or do this.
	Now, I tried to give him other options.
	He says, nope, you can only do this.
	You can only fight or flee, right?
	And I said, well, which are you going to do?
	Because if he fights, there's no point debating with him because he's going to be dead, right?
	Right.
	And if he flees, there's no point debating with him because he's just going to go to another government and continue to complain that he's being taxed and therefore he's evil.
	That's just really – Well, the reason that I ask people how is that theory working out in practice is if they're not practicing it, then it just seems simple.
	But as we all know, it is not so much the thinking of philosophy that is tough, it is the living of philosophy that is tough, right?
	So when you ask how is that in practice, like, how is it working out for him resisting?
	Well, if you say to me, I have to go somewhere and I can only go either north or south, and I say, well, which way are you going?
	Right? Right.
	And he says, well, neither.
	It's like, well, then there's another option, isn't there?
	Right. No, there is only north or south, and you must go one way or the other.
	Well, which way are you going? I mean, that was the whole debate, right?
	Well, which way are you going to go? I'm not going to go either way.
	It's like, well, then there are other options in north and south, which is standing at the crossroads, right?
	Or whatever, right? Right.
	But he would always say, there's only these two things.
	You have to do one or the other. Which one are you going to do?
	Neither. Then there's another thing.
	No, there's only these two things, right?
	And that's because he's not living his values.
	Right. And everything seems really fucking simple when you're only talking about it, right?
	Oh, yeah. Everything seems totally black and white.
	It's this or it's this.
	And that's why you know that when somebody spouts out a simple solution to a very complex problem, you know that they're not putting it into practice properly.
	Yeah, I mean, listen to that whole goddamn thing that we had going on with the Ron Paul people.
	Hey, if you guys have got a theory that says you can take a violent organization and turn it to peace and plenty, then forget about the federal government.
	Start... Start with your local organization.
	Start with organized crime.
	It's much smaller. It doesn't have nuclear weapons.
	There's no military industrial complex.
	It doesn't have the allegiance of the general population.
	Start there. If you're so knowledgeable and wise about how to turn violence into virtue, start with what you can control.
	Start with your family!
	Right? Because when you start with your family, or you start with the mafia, or you start with the Hispanic organization that I used as an example, join that and turn it against Hispanics.
	Not that anybody should be, but that would be an example.
	Join the KKK and turn it into the NAACP. If, right...
	But people don't want to actually try and live this stuff.
	They just want to talk and talk and talk and talk and talk.
	And they realize when they try to put something like that into practice just how complex of a problem they're talking about, which is kind of what your machine of evil thing was.
	Yeah, once you try to actually put this shit into practice...
	You realize how hard, how complicated it is.
	And from there, you learn some patience.
	Right? Because it's humbling.
	It's totally humbling.
	I mean, how am I going to say I'm going to join Congress and then free America if I can't even turn my own brother into a decent person?
	Or the woman I dated before my wife?
	Yeah. Because once you actually get in there and try to change people, and once you actually live your values, you realize it's really complex, right?
	And we should be relieved about that, as I said in the podcast.
	We should be hugely relieved about that.
	Because if it wasn't dense, complex, and really hard to change, there'd be little point changing it because it would just change back again.
	If it changed like a weather vane in the wind, right?
	Yeah. What would be the point?
	It's like getting up there and pushing a weather vane east when the wind is blowing south.
	I mean, you can hold it there, but then when you let go, it's just going to blow south or some other direction again.
	But the fact that this stuff is so hard to change means that once we do change it, it ain't changing back.
	Yeah, because after having worked so hard to live my values and change myself, which is ridiculously complex and hard to do.
	Right. And that's why I also asked this guy, because he's like, you know, well, I'm tortured about where my money ends up, right, with regards to statism.
	And so I said, well, have you donated?
	First of all, I asked him, is Freedom Aid Radio a good resource for liberty in your mind?
	He's like, oh, that was you.
	Yeah, that was me. He said, yes, it is.
	It's a fantastic resource for liberty and freedom, right?
	And it's like, well, have you donated?
	He's like, I bought some books.
	I bought all the books, right?
	But it's not a donation, right?
	Right. The books have nothing to do with Free Domain Radio as far as keeping the show going.
	Those are just books, right?
	They pay for the books. They don't pay for the show.
	They don't pay for the chat room that this guy was in for two hours.
	They don't pay for the podcast. They don't pay for the server.
	They don't pay for the bandwidth. They don't pay for my time other than to have written the books, right?
	It's all nothing to do with FDR. That's just a bunch of books.
	So he hadn't donated, right?
	Right. And so what that means is he claims to be so worried about how his money is used for good or for ill, right?
	Right. And he says this is a fantastic resource for liberty and he won't sign up for 20 bucks a month.
	Does he really care about how his money is used for good or for evil?
	Right. Is it worth $20 a month for him?
	Is it worth a $20 one-time donation?
	No. So it just means that it's got...
	He's just not interested in living the values.
	His values, not mine or yours, his values...
	And that's why there's no complexity in it for him.
	it's either this or it's this and that's like hey I am doing everything that I can conceivably do for freedom if I send Ron Paul 100 bucks and vote for him right Right. It's like, fuck no, you're not.
	That's all for you. That's nothing for freedom.
	That's all just for you to make you feel like you're doing something.
	It's got nothing to do with actually making the world free, handing money out and voting for someone.
	I mean, I know I'm saying that while saying this guy should have donated to FDR, but with FDR, we're actually putting this stuff into practice, right?
	I mean, there's no one who delegates anything to anyone at FDR, right?
	Nobody says, I donate money to FDR because Steph's going to come and free me, right?
	Right. No, we're all in there trying to free others.
	Yeah, there's no delegation.
	Yeah, there's no delegation, right?
	Because anybody says, Steph, come free me.
	It's like, dude, free yourself.
	I can't do it for you, right?
	And I wouldn't insult you by trying.
	Because the moment I say I have to do it for you, I'm saying you can't do it for yourself and you can't.
	I know this would go all over the place here, but I think it's important because I think it's something that happened both earlier today and a little earlier too.
	It's just that this stuff is really horribly complex.
	And it only looks simple if you're just windbagging it, right?
	And that's why I said about this guy...
	It's like, well, are you going to fight or are you going to flee?
	He's like, neither.
	It's like, well, why are we discussing this?
	It's an essential question.
	Right. And you have the answer, which is we fight or we flee.
	So which are you going to do? And he wouldn't do either, right?
	So I was like, oh, so you're just talking.
	And if you're only talking...
	Then you're going to be retarded because you don't get the complexity of doing it.
	Or, to put it in a more accurate way, you completely get the difficulty of doing it, which is why you won't fucking do it.
	Because you'd rather talk.
	This guy knows exactly that he has to avoid acting on his values, right?
	And we see this a lot, right?
	And Lord knows we all have this temptation too, right?
	Yeah. We all want to climb back into, and this of course is the, you know, there's the political libertarianism, there's the religious libertarianism, it's like, write articles and pray to God, right?
	Write articles and vote for Ron Paul.
	Read articles, send people articles, and send a political candidate money.
	Right? Well, that's all just talk, right?
	Yeah, exactly. And the biggest conflicts that we always get in this conversation is when we say, you're not living your values, right?
	And therefore, everything seems kind of simple, right?
	Hmm. So when we get people coming in who are religious, right, like this Tyler fellow comes in and says, my parents are wonderful people and they're Christians, right?
	Right.
	Does he genuinely at no level know that coming into an atheist website, and not a mildly atheist website, but a strong atheist website, which he was aware of before he came, that coming into a strong atheist website with my parents are moral and that coming into a strong atheist website with my parents are moral and fundamentalists, not even just like polite Anglicans, but like they Latter-day Saints people, right?
	Right.
	That that's as offensive as going to a black power website and saying my parents are in the KKK, but they're not racist and they're very happy?
	Right, you're basically praising the...
	The people that are – you're praising religious people and you're going to a site that's against religion.
	Well, I mean – but then to be shocked, right?
	When we say, well, your religion once is dead, right?
	Right. Say, oh, well, my parents don't want you dead.
	It's like, oh, okay, then they're not Christians, right?
	No, they're Christians, and they don't believe everything in the Bible.
	Like, well, I think they're fundamentalists, aren't they?
	Or if they don't believe everything in the Bible, what external standard are they using to judge which one is right or wrong?
	Which parts of the Bible are right and which parts of the Bible are wrong?
	Is there some external standard that you're using?
	Right. Does that external standard come from God?
	Well, if it came from God, then why is it in the Bible?
	If God doesn't think that atheists should be put to death, then why did God tell Moses and Jesus that atheists should be put to death?
	Is that what he wrote, but he's telling you something different?
	Then why doesn't he write down something different?
	Because that's pretty important to us atheists.
	And if... If God is not the one who's telling you that atheists should not be put to death, if you're just judging that for yourself, then aren't you just elevating yourself above God?
	Well, God did say this, but, I mean, God was wrong because I know better, right?
	Right. Or God did mean that stuff, but that other stuff doesn't have God in it, right?
	So paragraphs 1 through 3, that's God.
	But then paragraphs 8 through 10, oh, that's not God.
	That's mistakes.
	I mean, that's just mad because there's no way.
	You can't tell the difference, right?
	You're just making shit up. And either God is telling you that, in which case it'd be real nice if he informed everyone else that he'd been completely fucking evil for 5,000 years by talking about rape, genocide, murder, and so on.
	Be real nice if he'd said, I'm sorry, I told you guys to do all this evil shit.
	My bad, right? In which case, he's neither moral nor infallible, right?
	Right. Then he's not God, right?
	Right? He's just a dick with a big beard, right?
	Right. Just kind of an asshole.
	Right. Oh, shit.
	My bad. Genocides, murders.
	Oh, man. Too bad. Sorry.
	Typo, man. You know, I hate proofreading.
	Right? So, either he's that, or he's not telling them what's right and wrong in the Bible.
	In which case they're just making shit up and they're then bigger than God, which is like unbelievable narcissism, right?
	Oh, I pick and choose what God says because, you know, God sometimes is right and then he just kind of goes all kind of creepy and weird on you, right?
	So I reject all of that stuff according to some super God me external standard, right?
	Because if you actually try and live the values of Christianity rather than just talk about them, you realize that they're impossible, right?
	There's no better way to make UPB come alive than to say to people, live your goddamn values.
	Because if a Christian tries to actually live by what it says in the Bible, I mean, he's out there strangling homosexuals, he's out there killing unbelievers, I mean, he's dead, right?
	Exactly. So he's going to say, well, shit, I can't practice this stuff.
	But if all they do is talk about it, go and listen to some sermons, dress up nice on Sunday, don't have to live any of it, then they can keep all that shit afloat, right?
	Right. It's like that guy can continue to be tortured by fight or flee because it's just in his head.
	The moment he tries to live it, Obviously, he's not going to go the fight route unless he's completely death by cop guy, right?
	Is he going to go the flee route?
	Well, he's going to go and he's going to find out, well, shit, I'm in just some other place where they tax me now.
	And then he's going to say, well, these can't be the two answers because neither of them lead to freedom.
	So there must be something else.
	When you try to live this stuff, then the complexity and ambiguity and ambivalence of it all comes rising up, right?
	Yeah, and then the anxiety that goes with the ambivalence and then the...
	Right. It's tough.
	It's complex, right? It's like that guy, the utilitarian guy, came by the board.
	And he's like, well, you know, ethics is universal and murder is wrong and that's what utilitarianism does for me.
	And I'm like, oh, well, I have my own ethical theory, but perhaps you could...
	I don't want you to, you know, have to go and read mine.
	Perhaps you could share for me how it is that you prove that murder is wrong.
	And, you know, how did you solve the is-ought problem?
	And how do you reason this from first principles?
	And so on, right?
	Because, look, I know how tough it is, right?
	I know that people don't...
	Undergraduate students aren't just going to come breezing in with, hey, you know, I used utilitarianism to create objective ethics, right?
	Which is...
	You know, you know that it's just...
	You know, it would be incredible.
	I mean, if somebody... First of all, if somebody did that...
	something that was unprecedented, right?
	Right.
	And so they'd come in and they wouldn't be blithely saying, well, I believe this and I believe that, because they would be aware that they were making outlandish claims, right?
	What did I say at the beginning of UPB?
	That, yeah, this is highly unlikely.
	I am making a completely outlandish claim, right?
	Because if I didn't say that, I wouldn't have any credibility.
	I mean, I'm not saying I do anyway, but I'd have even less, right?
	Right. So you just know that people aren't living the value.
	You say, well, the happiness of everyone is the primary moral value, right?
	Well, what I suggest, and we'll get into this more when we get into the boot camp stuff, but what I suggest is how does that work in your life?
	For instance, when you were making this post at Freedom Aid Radio, how were you focusing on the greatest happiness for the greatest number in the world?
	How did you choose to make this post on FDR versus every other conceivable thing that you could be doing that would add to your highest value, which is the greatest good of the greatest happiness of the greatest number in the world, right?
	Right.
	And he's going to say, if he's honest, I don't know.
	I just thought it'd be fun to make a post, right?
	laughs But he's not going to be honest.
	Yeah, well, no. What he's going to say is, well, you know, we're just making debates here.
	It's like, no, no, no. If this is your highest moral value, how did it pump out that you should make a post on FDR and now reply to this one compared to every other conceivable thing that you could be doing in the world to make people happier?
	Right. He didn't start his own podcast or his own website.
	Or whatever it is, right?
	Whatever it is that he's doing, right?
	But even if he did, even if he says, well, I've been doing my own podcast for five years and this and that, it's like, well, how did you choose to make your own podcast rather than...
	You know, become a doctor and go work for Doctors Without Borders or, you know, try and invent a cure for cancer in your basement with your, you know, guppies and a lightning rod.
	I don't know, right? I mean, how is it that you made that?
	Whatever it is that you decided to do, how is it that you made that decision, right?
	So this guy, I think, was a pre-law, right?
	A law student. How is it that you, being a law student...
	What fulfills your moral requirement of the greatest happiness for the greatest number?
	Did you survey people and say, how would my choice of career contribute to your happiness the greatest?
	Right. He didn't put any of this utilitarianism into practice.
	Otherwise, he didn't even do the, like you were saying, the Doctors Without Borders or...
	Anything like that, he came and made a post on FDR. Right.
	And I would also say to him, who is it that you're making happy?
	Because I can tell you, you're sort of annoying everyone here, right?
	So is there some other group that you're making very happy by posting in this way on this philosophy board?
	Because if your happiness, if your goal is the greatest happiness for the greatest number, and you're annoying people here, you're already in the hole, right?
	Right. And then he's basically going to say, I don't, sorry to keep interrupting you, he's basically going to say, fuck, I don't know, I just came and made a post, right?
	In which case we can say, so then it's not the greatest happiness for the greatest number.
	Because you're not living it.
	Now, the moment he actually tries to live the greatest happiness for the greatest number, he's going to find out what?
	How... Hard that is to do.
	Well, it can't be done. Right, it can't be done.
	Because what he did was he came back and he mocked my podcast on utilitarianism, right?
	Right. Because he said, well, you can't figure out what makes people happy and that changes and they may not tell you or they may not tell you the truth and blah, blah, blah, right?
	And he just mocked that and said that wasn't helpful, right?
	So he came back and said his theory was impossible?
	No, no, no. He didn't, right?
	He came back and said that my objections to his theory were invalid, right?
	But all that tells me is that he's not living his values.
	And the only reason that he can hold such silly values is because he's not living them.
	But you said he came back with reasons that disproved his own...
	No, no. He was quoting my reasons.
	I say, figure out who's happy and they may not tell you the truth and it's going to change over time.
	And sometimes people don't even know what makes them happy.
	We have addicts, we have drunkards, we have sexual addicts.
	I mean, we don't know, right? Right, right, right.
	Okay, I thought... And sometimes that which is good for people makes them unhappy for quite a while, right?
	Yeah. So what length of term of happiness is value?
	You can't live it.
	You can't live it.
	And that's why I keep pestering people.
	How are you living these values?
	How are you living your values?
	Because if you're genuinely living them, then they've got to be UPB compliant because you can only actually live something that's UPB compliant because otherwise it's all contradictory and you just have to make shit up, right?
	Right, and if it were a valid moral rule to resist the state or flee, then he should be fleeing all the time, or resisting all the time.
	Yeah, I mean, what is he, living on a boat in the ocean?
	I mean, I don't know, right? But live the values, right?
	And if you're not going to live the values, then don't talk to me about theoreticals.
	Because if you're not willing to live your values, why should I listen to you talk about them?
	I mean, if you have some horrible skin condition, and you say to me, I have a solve that gets rid of a horrible skin condition, and you say, well, you should take it yourself, and they're like, are you kidding me?
	I'd never take this, but let me tell you how good it is.
	Right. Well, shut up, right?
	Like, I don't want to hear you talk about it.
	I don't want to see your PowerPoint for something that you're not willing to take on.
	So this is why I was frustrated and annoyed by the post.
	I think so. But that's my thought about it.
	I mean, what do you think?
	I think that's right.
	I don't think I consciously thought it all the way through like that.
	But I did feel I was being put in an impossible situation or that...
	Okay, but that's important, right?
	So what is the impossible situation?
	Because you felt irritation, but then you must have had a judgment about that irritation.
	You weren't curious about it, right?
	I wonder why I'm irritated.
	There must be a good reason, because I'm not just a nasty guy, right?
	But what was your story about your irritation?
	Well, when I came in the chat room and asked and told people...
	No, no, no. Sorry to interrupt you.
	When you saw the post, because then it's too late, right?
	Because when you saw the post, when you felt the irritation, what did you say to yourself about it?
	I said... Well, I'm really frustrated.
	I can't seem to make myself reply to this post.
	I don't know what to say.
	I'm just flabbergasted.
	I feel... What is that extreme frustration feeling word?
	It starts with an E. Philosophy?
	Exacerbated. Exacerbated.
	Good one. Yes. Okay.
	But you had a story about your frustration, which made it bad.
	Had to. Otherwise, you'd have been curious about it, right?
	Right. Right.
	The story was that I'm just not smart enough to think of a good question to ask this guy.
	Okay, that's one.
	But another one would be something like, I'm guessing, let me know if it's right or wrong.
	Here, I'm giving you an answer.
	Look at that. I think it's an answer.
	I don't know if it's an answer, but it's what I... This guy has a great argument.
	I don't know the answer.
	And therefore, I'm only irritated because I think I might be wrong.
	That too, I think, went through our mind.
	Because I've seen that happen in this community too.
	And look, it happens to me too, right?
	But it's this thing where it's like, I can't find the flaw in this guy's argument, but I'm irritated by it.
	Therefore... I must be irritated because he's right.
	Or I think he might be right and I don't like that or something like that.
	Somewhere along those lines, but having heard you argue this same point before and having...
	You know, you've argued it several times.
	You argued it in UPB. You even wrote an article about it.
	And I've seen it a million times.
	But... It's a really irritating argument, and I think you're right that it's a good argument.
	You mean the one about flee or fight or surrender?
	No, I think...
	No, no, because that's not how I understood his argument to begin with.
	His argument to begin with was that compliance is freedom, basically.
	That complying to violence is...
	Oh, it's not violence if you agree, and you agree by how you stay.
	It's the Socratic argument.
	If you stay, you agree, right?
	Right. Right.
	It's... If you stay in the country, you're supporting it.
	If you pay your taxes, you're supporting it and stuff like that.
	And you have responsibility because you could leave and pay your money to someone else, right?
	Right. Right.
	So, I mean, there's so many ways to respond to that argument and so on.
	But to me, it's always essential.
	And this was going to come up in the boot camp, but I must mention it now.
	It's always essential to understand if somebody is capable of thinking.
	Now, the way that we learn how to think is not by sitting there and reading books.
	The way that we learn how to think is by doing, right?
	Reading all the books in carpentry will not let you put one goddamn straight nail into a piece of wood, right?
	Right. The way that we learn how to think is not by reading.
	It's not even by debating.
	It's by doing. Right?
	Okay, I'm not sure where you're going, but keep going.
	Well, so when somebody comes in with a statement that says, obedience is compliance, right?
	Or compliance is freedom, is that right?
	Right, basically. It's not force if you just surrender to demands.
	Right. Right?
	So what are you going to say? Give me your fucking wallet.
	Right. I always forget that one.
	But seriously, live it!
	Right, live that. Live it!
	Where do you live? I'm going to come over and take your big screen.
	Right, and if you comply with me, then it's not force.
	I'm not forcing you to. Right.
	It's not force. If I only threaten you, it's not force, right?
	It's not evil, and your freedom actually comes from giving me all your earthly belongings, right?
	Right? And I could get really nasty with that one, but...
	Well, you don't have to be nasty, right?
	But just say, oh, listen, can you give me $5,000?
	Right? No.
	Well, why not? What if I threatened you?
	You just make a theory. What if I threatened you?
	No. Okay.
	So help me understand how your logic works, because you've just said that you're not going to do something that you say is moral.
	We always want to be drawn into the intellectual debate, right?
	Because it's not confrontational.
	And it doesn't call bullshit where bullshit is most deservedly caused, right?
	Because when...
	And this is true of everybody in this conversation.
	Everybody who's listening to this got this far, right?
	We all got called on bullshit, right?
	All of us. It was me, and then I was like, well, shit, I'm not going to do it alone.
	So I turned around and roped all these other people in, right?
	Because philosophy eventually just drop-kicked my ass over the goalposts of integrity, right?
	Because for 20 years I was like, oh, reason, oh, virtue, right?
	Oh, A is A, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Right. And then it's like, look around you.
	Where are your values showing up in a meaningful way?
	Is it talk only that you're interested in or is this stuff supposed to actually have traction in the real world?
	If you were to say live those values, like hand me your wallet or I'm going to come over and beat you up or something else.
	I'm going to come burn your house down.
	Well, I personally wouldn't make those threats directly.
	Right. But if I were to say this, if someone were to say this, you would then give them your money.
	Right, but then they could say, well, I choose to resist this time, and I'll call the cops, and then it is violence because I'm resisting.
	But if I choose not to resist...
	Like, if I have an overwhelming force with an army, then he's not going to have a choice to resist, and therefore he should comply, and therefore I'm moral because I have a whole bunch of guns and he's complying.
	Well, but then if he says, I don't have a choice to resist, then you're saying, so when a choice is taken away, somehow you're more free?
	Right, when you, because when someone's not pointing a gun at you, you can do whatever you want, right?
	But when someone is pointing a gun at you, you can kind of only do what they want you to, right?
	So how is it an infinity of choices that gets cut down to one choice, which is obedience, is the definition of freedom?
	Surely fewer choices equals less freedom.
	Poor Willian double-think.
	Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like I can only do one thing, therefore I am perfectly free.
	But when I could do anything I wanted, I was enslaved to what?
	Gravity? I don't know, right?
	But how are you living it, right?
	How are you living these values?
	And people get all kinds of upset with this when we bring this up, right?
	When we take things out of the abstract, right?
	Because then they have to change.
	Well, it's philosophy.
	They personalize it to us, right?
	But it's philosophy calling bullshit, right?
	Right. Saying, stop talking about it and start doing it.
	Because you're not learning a goddamn thing talking about it, right?
	Right. So, why do you think I've been asking these annoying questions?
	Or... Why do you think you felt annoyed by my questions?
	I'm trying to circle this back around to the original topic.
	That's reasonable. Because I'm still not sure what was going on for me exactly, other than that I felt frustrated about...
	Well, I put a big problem out there, right?
	And as we talked about in this conversation, it's a big and thorny and naughty and ugly and complex problem, right?
	And you wanted to shave it down to a kind of retarded simplicity.
	Don't put the questions in.
	Don't put the answers in, right?
	Like, look, it's simple.
	Just don't put the answers in. Like, hey, if you have any problem with the answers, kick them out of the bus, right?
	Right. If the answers are giving you any trouble, take them out back and shoot them, right?
	So, what was...
	I'm trying to think...
	Well, what you were doing was you were eliciting a response in me which was, it's more complex than you say, right?
	And you're actually avoiding the complexity because you can't be standing in front of Notre Dame saying, where is Notre Dame, right?
	Oh. So, why would I avoid the complexity?
	Well, you had just spent all afternoon with somebody who was avoiding complexity in the chat room, right?
	Right. It's this or it's this.
	You go north or you go south. It's like, why?
	Why are those the only choices?
	But that's what I asked the guy, right?
	It's fight, submit, or flee.
	I think, well, why are those the only choices?
	That's not what I do. I minimize my taxes and I use the majority of my remaining freedom to spread ideas of freedom as far and wide as possible.
	I feel free. I gotta pay them off some money.
	So what? I feel free.
	And I am free.
	As free as it gets, right?
	The maximum amount of freedom, right?
	And it may not be perfect freedom, but so what?
	I'll take the maximum amount of health as opposed to perfect health, because I'm not sure I'd even notice a difference that much.
	Right, exactly. But you see, he just avoided that, right?
	So I put some complexity into it, right?
	I also put complexity in by saying, look, if you don't pay your taxes, they just tax poor people more by printing money and creating inflation, right?
	Greg says, I was pushing my therapist and my group into the same box.
	Why is he typing? Is his mic broken?
	I just gave him a new one. But hang on, let's just finish this bit and then we'll go to Greg, if that's all right.
	Okay. Right, so I said, look, I mean, there's a complex thing where you pay them off as little as possible, and you use the mechanisms that have been invented and created by governments like the internet to spread freedom and make the world a better place, right?
	Right. That's complex, though, right?
	That takes some sophisticated thinking.
	And what that does, sorry, what that does is it puts this guy into the territory of the about me debate, right?
	Right. Against me, sorry, the against me thing.
	Because if he says, okay, well, the thing to do is to try and exist within this status paradigm, minimize the taxes, maximize my freedom, and work to spread as much freedom and happiness as I can, right?
	That's complex. That's ambivalent.
	That's ambiguous. That's hard, right?
	And it means that you can actually start doing something instead of wondering about whether you'd rather live in Morocco or die in a hail of FBI bullets, which is frankly bullshit because he's not ever going to do either one of those things.
	And you and I know that, right?
	Right. He's never going to move to the – he was like, the Antarctic has no government.
	It's like, oh, fuck.
	Are you seriously telling me you're going to go live in a fucking ice floe?
	For freedom? I mean, come on!
	You're not going to do that.
	You're not going to die in a hail of FBI bullets.
	So why don't we start dealing with some real fucking choices, which are complex and difficult, and will involve you bringing freedom and the against me argument to the religious and political people in your life.
	So his simplicity overran your knowledge of depth and complexity, right?
	His defense against action, because that's almost always what philosophy is for people.
	And I'm going to be honest, though not modest, and say that's what it is for people outside this conversation for the most part, because we are all about traction, right?
	Intellectual defense. Right.
	So, he's got an intellectual defense called...
	Simplify and basically attack, right?
	Because I also said to him, so you've now spent – basically you've spent an hour or two on an anarchist board talking about the immorality of anarchist participation in the state.
	What proportion of your time are you spending writing letters to the IRS telling them how evil they are?
	Because if he's only picking on the, quote, immorality of anarchists, then his values are completely screwed up, right?
	Right. Because clearly we're victims, right?
	Clearly we're victims, right?
	And he says, well, but you participate in the status system.
	It's like, how much time are you spending?
	That's why I said, I think you should spend more time focusing on the immorality of the people shooting the weapons rather than the people trying to dodge the bullets.
	Right. Focusing on why the victim isn't escaping versus why the perpetrator is perpetrating.
	Yeah, I mean, and he didn't, like, none of that registered with him, right?
	Right, it's the hierarchy of values thing.
	Yeah, so clearly he's not interested in alternate perspectives or sophistication or counter-arguments.
	He's just repeating the same thing, right?
	Because philosophy's got a hold on him, but it hasn't reeled him in yet, so he's fighting like crazy in the depths, right?
	Why are you making mother upset?
	If mother is bad, you should leave her home.
	Something like that, I guess.
	Sorry, I didn't quite get that transition.
	The family tradition, you know what?
	You're making mother upset.
	Oh, right, yeah. The simplicity is just to not make mother upset, whatever, right?
	But that challenge is a huge one.
	I have real sympathy, a huge sympathy for everyone going through that challenge.
	I don't have sympathy particularly for people who are using philosophy to avoid the truth, to avoid action, to avoid doing things in their own life, right?
	right here's their own life because they just go around fogging everyone else and befuddling everyone else and suddenly you know anarchists fighting for the truth of feeling guilty because they feel they have blood on their hands and it's like oh man you know go somewhere else and so you asked him about the donations I asked him about donations.
	I asked him what he was going to do in particular.
	I asked him whether he was focusing on questioning the morality of the perpetrators or of the victims.
	Right? Right.
	And every single time, he simply avoided answering, right?
	Right. I mean, this is the guy who quoted me to say that I supported his position.
	I asked for a reference, he gave a reference that did not support his position, and then he kept not answering me when I pointed out that he needed to withdraw his assertion, right?
	And everybody saw this and kept debating with him, right?
	Yeah.
	Right, so his simplicity and defensiveness...
	Had overrun your knowledge of challenging complexity, right?
	It was an infection.
	Wow. And then what happened when I brought a complex topic up?
	I just re-inflicted?
	Well, you tried to infect me, right?
	Because you've been infected and tried to infect me, right?
	Saying, Steph...
	Run over the answers if they're causing you problems.
	So if that was the case this time, then the other times you said that over the past couple of weeks, I don't know if it happened at the barbecue or not, but it's possible that as I've been trying to help people in the chatroom over the past few weeks...
	You say you got frustrated in that process, right?
	When you were asking the question?
	Yeah, when I was saying I've seen you help people, you said that had been frustrating for you at times, right?
	Oh, yeah. Right, and these guys are good at hooking people in, right?
	Even when I, as myself, said, I simply cannot debate with you because you are not listening to anything that I'm saying, right?
	People still kept debating him, right?
	He had you guys dancing around like a bunch of puppets, right?
	Right. I mean, it's not like people don't debate with whoever you want, right?
	But nobody asked me why I'd stop debating with him.
	It just kept going on, right?
	Well, I saw that you had said that and stopped, and I was like, well, he must have a damn good reason, so...
	And my reason would have been to...
	But you still didn't ask me why, right?
	Because if you've been pursuing a debate for an hour, and it had been a long debate, and I come in and bail almost immediately, you still didn't ask me why, which means that you kind of didn't want to know, right?
	And the reason that you don't want to know, Nate, is it's really hard for you to cause other people anxiety, right?
	Because you're anxious a lot of time, right?
	Yeah, and I kind of thought I already knew why, just based on how I felt, which was really, really frustrated.
	And so I thought, well, if I'm feeling really frustrated, then I should stop debating.
	Because something is obviously...
	I didn't see that you stopped debating because you recognized that this guy couldn't be debated with.
	What did you see? Well, I saw that you kept debating him for like an hour, right?
	Off and on. But you know what I mean, right?
	Well, when you stopped, you had...
	You mean when you stopped as guest or when you stopped as...
	Either time. Because when you stopped, you started talking to Greg and then I remember shifting...
	No, there was a time before that where I had stopped as well and for obvious reasons.
	And people had seen, even though I was in as a guest, people had seen that this debate wasn't going anywhere, right?
	Yeah. Right, and I kept going.
	And you kept going, right?
	And that's totally fine.
	I mean, this is just a matter of a tweak, right?
	But I can guarantee this is the tough thing about being a philosopher.
	This is the toughest thing, at least for me, because I'm sensitive and don't like to be disliked and don't like to make people upset or whatever, right?
	But if people take that approach, one of us is going to get really frustrated.
	And I'm telling you, it's not going to be me.
	And that's the hard part.
	The more that I commit to remaining non-frustrated by this, the more frustrated other people get, right?
	So, I'll give you a scenario and then you can let me know what you think.
	So, a scenario is, and I've done this before a number of times, this is a strategy you could call it, and no problem putting this out there, right?
	But what will happen is, I will say...
	And I tried this in this case, but nobody responded.
	I will say to somebody who's just not making sense, I'm not going to talk to you anymore because you're not making sense.
	You're not listening. Greg, what's new with you?
	Or, Nate, how's it going?
	Right? Right.
	And then what happens is I begin to engage other people around to draw them away from the irrational person.
	Right? Right. You've probably seen me do this a number of times.
	And I got drawn away.
	I'm sorry? And I actually got drawn away.
	Sure, and that's good, right?
	But the second time only, not the first.
	But you didn't know it was me. But what will happen is the irrational person will continue to keep posting his provocative questions, right?
	Quote, questions, right?
	Right. So I'll say, Nate, how's it going?
	And, you know, so-and-so, how's it going?
	And what's new? And here's a new section of the book and this and that and the other or whatever, right?
	Right. And then the person will continue to try and get a rise out of people by posting these provocative questions.
	Right. And...
	People, because they're going someplace healthier, generally don't respond, right?
	Right. And what happens then?
	Then the person either leaves or gets angry, or both.
	Yeah, they get frustrated, they get angry.
	They either escalate or they leave or whatever, right?
	Right. And they feel very frustrated and upset at that point, right?
	Right. And I don't like doing that.
	I don't like that feeling being inflicted on other people.
	And I don't do it to them, of course.
	Ultimately, they're doing it to themselves, right?
	And I've done that a couple of times in the past couple of days.
	There was a guy that...
	And I finally got to, you know, what is your methodology for determining truth and falsehood?
	And he's like, well, there is no methodology.
	And I was like, well, I'm done here.
	Right. And that's useful, right?
	And then he's going to try and draw you in with something else to avoid the anxiety of his own bullshit.
	And I say bullshit with all the sympathy in the world, because Lord knows we all had it, right, before philosophy came along and horseshoed our foreheads, right?
	Right. Oh, yeah.
	I did. Right?
	So, whether people can tolerate that anxiety, and this is all the way back to Socrates.
	This is nothing new. Socrates would go up to all these people who claim to be so certain about everything, and he would say, oh, that's interesting.
	How do you determine truth from falsehood?
	What is your methodology, right?
	And some of them would say, holy shit, you know what?
	I don't have a clue. I've been bullshitting my way through life, right?
	Let's see if we can't figure something out.
	And they'd be honest about it, right?
	Yeah. Oh, those people you grab onto.
	Yeah, and they're very rare, right?
	It takes a lot of ego strength to be able to look down and say, hey, this earth I thought I was living on is nothing more than an insubstantial and exploitive cloud castle, right?
	And I'm willing to jump off or fall through, which is what happens when you notice that, which is why people avoid it.
	I'm going to fall through and hopefully there'll be a parachute floating down somewhere below the clouds, right?
	Right. It's horrible, right?
	And so people avoid it like the plague.
	So... And there's no people further away from it than those people who desperately want it, but are perfectly defended against it.
	Right? Because the people who just don't care, it's like, I don't do no philosophy.
	I mean, those people, like, who gives a shit?
	Go to NASCAR, right? The two guys in my group therapy.
	Yeah, yeah. Like, they don't care, right?
	There may be some base sheep-like hostility against it, but they're not going to...
	But it's those people who are torn, tortured, the most ambivalent, right?
	Because they desperately want to be free, but every time they start to approach freedom, and they can't let the ideas go, but every time they try to approach freedom, it begins to stare them up and down balefully and say, what you doing about this in your own life, son?
	And they're like, shit, I'm going back to abstracts, let me read another book.
	Those people are the furthest away, right?
	Right. Like, the stalker is the furthest away from loving his victim, right?
	Like that crazy guy who stalked Jodie Foster for many years, right?
	I mean, Jodie Foster, frankly, doesn't give a shit about you or me or anybody else who's a good actress, whatever, right?
	Right. Right?
	So, we don't hate...
	Even people who hate Jodie Foster but who never approach Jodie Foster, who gives a shit?
	She doesn't even know, right? Right.
	Right. Mark his name.
	But the guy who stalks Jodie Foster, who is, quote, you know, tormented and obsessed by her and so on, he's the one who is actually the furthest away from loving her, right?
	Explain that one. Well, because he's scaring her, which is fear and terror and, you know, not wanting to get stabbed is the opposite of love, right?
	Right. So the guy who stalks her is the one who hates her the most.
	Though, of course, he will tell you that all he does is care about her, right?
	Right, and all he does is the opposite.
	And it's the same thing with philosophy.
	Right? The people who say they love philosophy but scare and destabilize everyone they come around with and leave people feeling worse, not better, and not in a good way...
	Right? The people who affect other people with indecision and doubt and, you know, they feel lowered.
	I mean, we've seen dozens if not hundreds of these people, hundreds at least, floating around this conversation, right?
	Every time you interact with them, you just come away dazed and not good, right?
	Yeah, and then you go do a podcast.
	Yeah, then you go do whatever, right?
	But we've had these people, right?
	The academics who come in, the people who come in and they just...
	I mean, it's like putting your hand into a fire, right?
	It's like, you dread the posts, right?
	Right. Well, they're stalking philosophy.
	And they say, ooh, I love philosophy.
	I love ideas so much.
	But they're actually the furthest away from loving philosophy.
	Even far further, infinitely further than people who are indifferent.
	Or even people who say, I hate philosophy, so I don't go to any philosophy websites.
	These guys are the stalkers, right?
	Right. They won't let it go.
	They're just going to come in and shit all over it repeatedly, right?
	Oh, it won't go there because...
	Yeah, the L word.
	The L? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But, I mean, that's the situation, right?
	I mean, they're the polar opposites, right?
	Jodie Foster, I guess, has a loving girlfriend who makes her feel happy and needed and wanted and good and so on, right?
	And that person loves Jodie Foster.
	The stalker who won't leave her alone...
	It's the one who hates her more than anyone, though he claims, of course, only to love.
	And it's the same thing with philosophy.
	The people who are drawn towards philosophy – this is not a personalized thing.
	The people who are drawn towards philosophy and all they do is freak people out and make them doubt everything, they're the ones who actually hate philosophy the most, right?
	Exactly. They go in undercover, right?
	That gives a new – sheds a new light from that perspective on these academics.
	Yeah. Yeah, I certainly believe that's the case because although philosophy can be tough, you should not feel always worse.
	I mean, there are very few people who are fearful of my posts, right?
	I mean, but there's lots of people who, you know, they get around and start posting on the board.
	I'm like, I see that they've posted and I'm like, oh no, right?
	What fresh hell is this, right?
	Right. And they're not leaving, right?
	right but they're stalking right so so anyway so so my feeling is that this guy was was hostile and frightened of depth and ambivalence which is why he was giving these like literally for two hours giving these uh bullshit black and white answers right Right. I was swimming in that.
	Right, and you couldn't impose your complexity on him, so he ended up imposing his defensive simplicity on you, right?
	Right. So then, when I came along with something that is complex and difficult and challenging and all that, right?
	You were like, eh, it's simple.
	Why do you even have answers in there?
	Just don't give them answers, right?
	But it's complicated, right?
	I mean, what am I going to say, right?
	But like me going into some complicated triple bypass surgery and just saying, I don't know, put a depth charge in his chest, your problem is gone, right?
	Right. You know, grenade the guy.
	Simple. Solved.
	Problem solved, right? Yeah, I could see how that...
	And I did feel kind of irritated by the complexity of the problem.
	Right. For sure. For sure.
	Because I wanted to help.
	I really did. I wanted to try and...
	You know, I was...
	Thinking, you know, oh no, I have no answers for him.
	But here's an answer.
	Well, you see, the interesting thing is you said, I don't have any answers, so Steph, you shouldn't give any answers.
	Not having an answer is good, right?
	But that's also very simple, right?
	Because the RTR thing is, Steph, I really want to help, but I feel like I don't have any answers, right?
	Right. But you couldn't RTR because you hadn't RTR'd with yourself about your frustration earlier, right?
	Right, I kind of just let it fly by and simmer.
	Right, right.
	So if you couldn't RTR with yourself, maybe we can't be any more open and honest with others than we are with ourselves, right?
	And it comes from just saying, I'm not frustrated because I am wrong, because I am willing to, obviously, I'm happy if I'm told that I'm wrong and because I am willing to, obviously, I'm happy if I'm told that I'm wrong and It's good for me, right? So, and that, of course, is the benefit when I say to people, hey, you know, come on in.
	Tell me that I'm wrong. You know, help me out.
	Help me out of error. If you know so much better than I do, please, you know, lead me out of error.
	The reason that that's such a great thing to do is because...
	Because that way, if I feel irritated, I know it's not because I'm wrong and don't want to be right, because I've already said that up front and I genuinely believe it.
	So, I mean, the benefit of that kind of open invitation is then when I get irritated, I know it's for real, right?
	Right. Right.
	Yeah, this all makes a lot more sense now.
	I think in the future I'll be able to catch myself when this happens again.
	Because it's gonna, and I'm gonna see it.
	Yeah, and it's, you know, this is all really hard stuff, right?
	And people who come in and say that it's simple, it's not because they hate us or anything like that.
	It's just because it really is anxiety-provoking.
	And if we remember that, then we just remember that shielding them from that necessary anxiety, it just doesn't help them, right?
	Right. It's okay.
	The guy, the doctor who says...
	You should quit smoking is causing anxiety in the guy who smokes, right?
	Yes. But that's his job.
	The doctor who says you need to drop 100 pounds or you'll be dead in five years causes great anxiety, right?
	And he doesn't like to have to do that.
	Oh, I mean, unless you're a sadist, then nobody wants to do that.
	It's just the responsibility that you take on when you gather certain kinds of knowledge, right?
	Right. So, Greg, you said you had something about my therapy.
	I'm sorry. You can keep chatting.
	I have to go. I'm happy to pick this up later on tonight, but I have to.
	Christina has put a lovely spread together, and I don't want it to get cold.
	Can we pick it up later on tonight?
	Would that be okay if anyone's around?
	Yeah, let's pick it up later tonight.
	Later's fine. Later's actually better.
	Fantastic. I'll talk to you guys then.
	10 o'clock or something. Okay.

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