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June 1, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:31:13
1082 Choosing a Great Career (Conference)
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So, excellent.
Do you want to go first?
Okay. You can hear me, I guess, yeah.
I mean, obviously, the whole FDR thing is quite new for me.
But my job particularly, I mean, my particular work is in welfare.
And for a while that hasn't sat easy with me at all but I mean even before FDR I was pretty pretty disgruntled with the whole thing anyway and have very much wanted to at least move myself into a The private sector in some form,
not because of, you know, libertarian views in the past, as I have now maybe, but just as a matter of course, it seemed a more interesting, exciting prospect for me.
But in all honesty, I don't have any great, I don't have any real great ideas, I guess.
Sorry, go on. No, go ahead.
No, no, it's okay. I was just finishing off.
I was just going to ask, what do you do now, specifically?
Well, my work now is, I generalize it a bit, because obviously it's involved in helping people who can't afford to pay their rent.
It's a government subsidy that's given out to people on very low incomes as a method to helping them pay their rent effectively.
I've been doing it now, I guess, for about some...
I mean, I actually do it self-employed contracting, which is quite strange.
But yeah, I do different.
It's basically run by the local authorities.
When I say that, I mean, I guess the equivalent of state governments or whatever.
It's local. In the UK, it's what we call borough councils and that sort of thing.
So it's all done through them.
They will hire me when they've got a particular target to meet, government targets to meet, to try and meet those targets, etc.
So that's what I sort of help them out with, I guess.
So you actually, do you...
Do you do, like, analyzing potential candidates for receiving this subsidy?
I don't specifically do that now.
I used to do that.
I now look at other people's work.
Who do that sort of thing.
And I make sure that it's done through the correct procedure, regulations, all that sort of crap.
And I have to train people.
Take people aside, try and get their work up to match.
I mean, if I was to go into any great detail about it, it's a hugely complicated, complex, I mean, typical of government, I guess, highly complex sort of legalese involved in it and everything else.
You know, and my job is to generally make sure that people are doing it correctly, I guess, you know.
So you're in kind of an overseer role now.
Yeah, I mean, they call me quality control.
That's my name, I guess, you know.
Sure. And you're dissatisfied with that now?
Yeah, I guess there are parts of it that obviously taught me a lot.
I mean obviously in any career you learn to adapt to To kind of a way of being as a person.
I mean, one of the biggest tasks I have in this job is learning to deal with personalities and how to kind of get the best out of them and not fall out with people.
I mean, for obvious reasons.
I mean, my job is about criticizing people.
So it has its fraught moments, you know.
Right. And in some ways that's been a really brilliant sort of insight into dealing with people and I've learned a lot from that in that sense.
But as far as the job is concerned, I mean certainly now, I mean we've The ideas that, you know, I've sort of come to terms with FDR and stuff, I'm beginning to feel very isolated in it and in my mind,
you know, and I feel, and I must admit though, before FDR I was thinking this anyway and I wanted to make a change, particularly, you know, and But I've become more intensified, I guess, in the last three months, I guess. Right.
This desire to make a change, was there Is there any particular thing or moment or activity that you're engaged in or that happens when those kinds of thoughts are particularly strong or is it just a generalized sort of growing desire?
I guess it's generalised really.
There are some times when I feel strangely good about my job.
When you sort things out for people that are obviously in extreme need.
Obviously we can all go into the arguments about The rights are wrong is about welfare, and I fully appreciate them, you know.
Right. But there are moments when you see...
I mean, for instance, I had a lady yesterday who'd been...
Her landlord had locked her out of her flat, you know, and basically left...
All her belongings were still in there, and she couldn't get in.
She had no way of getting back.
And we managed through some sort of method to obviously...
Provide some extra subsidy, I guess, you know, that meant that she and her and a negotiation with our housing advice team, you know, we were able to get her back into her flat, you know, that evening, you know, and that times, there are times when that kind of feels slightly satisfying, but I, you know, but ultimately, I guess it's the whole principle behind the sort of government issue that I suppose I feel...
Well, I mean, if I go into...
I don't want to bore everyone with detail.
I mean, there's a...
What the government does, essentially, is with private tenants, it won't let them...
It will... We have this...
They have this other government office which decides on how high that rent can be.
And if they feel the rent is too high, they'll restrict it.
They won't give them the full rent.
So if you say it's $100 a week rent, they tell us, well, you can't pay any more than $70.
But there's a backup, a supposed net that's supposed to catch people in that situation, because obviously a lot of people find themselves in that situation.
Which is a discretionary payment that we can pay as local governments and we can bridge the gap between the two, if you know what I mean.
And that's what we managed to do with this lady.
But because she hadn't been getting this bridging and the landlord obviously wanted the full rent, wasn't getting the full rent, he had decided to lock her out of her room.
Oh, sorry, so you guys topped up what she would have paid, what the landlord wanted?
Yeah, that's right. Now, is her entire rent subsidized, or is just the...
It is in her particular case, yeah.
It was in her particular case, yeah.
And what are the circumstances around that?
Why is she needing a full subsidy?
Why not... Because she's not working.
She's unemployed.
When you're unemployed in the UK, you're given what they call a jobseeker's allowance.
Which is the minimum that the government says that you need to live on.
And we will pay all of your, well, I say all of your rent, all the eligible rent, eligible as in government standard eligible, after that.
So that's why she was getting full subsidy.
Okay, alright.
And she's just between jobs or something like that?
I don't know in her case.
I mean, she was an Islamic lady, fully veiled as well.
So I don't suppose she, in my experience, they tend not to want to work mostly.
Oh, I see. As a result of their religion, I guess.
Right. She was a single lady, you know, as it were, no children and stuff, but yeah.
Sorry, I just have a weak question I want to interrupt, but I guess the question for me with this kind of stuff is always like, okay, well if I look back at the end of my life at how I've spent my time and energy and what I've achieved with it and what I've done and so on, how do you feel about that with regards to this?
Is that something that's problematic for you or do you feel that it is a good and satisfying way to spend your life?
Well, I suppose it's not the only...
Aspects of my life, you know, that requires satisfaction in that sense.
But I guess work is something you do continually.
And, you know, it's difficult.
I don't know really. It's difficult for me to I suppose I would feel, I mean, although there are satisfying parts about it, but on a purely philosophical level, I suppose, as the way we've been discussing with In FDR, I would find it perhaps dissatisfying.
Although, I did listen to one of your podcasts that talked about teachers teaching and how perhaps they've still got to earn a buck and da-da-da.
Work doesn't necessarily have to be the most satisfying sort of experience in that sense, which I kind of understood that.
Am I making sense? Well...
Not a lot to me.
Sorry, not a lot to me. No, sorry.
Which is fine. I mean, it should just be that I'm not following.
But my position, I mean, do you have a family at the moment?
Are you bound by a lot of financial restrictions?
No, I'm single.
No, I'm single. I've never been married, no.
No children, no children.
You have some options, right?
It's not like my children will starve if I don't bring home a paycheck immediately, right?
No. Yeah, so I mean, for me, it's like, yeah, I mean, if you have to earn a buck and you've, you know, you're one year away from retirement as a teacher and so on, that may not make the most sense to pack that stuff in.
But it sounds like you have at least some options to take a different course.
And as you say, there's some stuff you've learned from your existing job that...
would be a value to something else.
Well, the question is, though, what else, right?
I mean, if there were no restrictions on...
If you didn't have to worry about training or experience or cost or effort or anything, and you just had a catalog of jobs in front of you that you could just pick at will, what would you pick?
What would I pick? Well, I mean, I went to art school.
It was one of my...
You know, I think I'm reasonably competent with design and stuff like that.
And design was an area I really wanted to go into.
But I think given my background and stuff in terms of...
When I talk about my background, I mean my sort of childhood and stuff like that.
But I think I always felt I lacked a certain amount of confidence about it.
But it's an area that I find intensely interesting and to some degree when I do it myself, which is not that often, but even on my own, it's very satisfying.
You know, graphic design, sort of Even painting and stuff and sculpture.
But, you know, I recognize the difficulties of becoming a full-time artist.
You know, there's not an awful lot of money in that.
And I don't want to lose the satisfaction of having some cash in my pocket, I guess.
Right. But design would be one of the areas if I was to think of my truly You know, the most amazing, possibly amazing job I could have.
Well, there's certainly more money in design than there is in the finance, right?
Yes, yes. But I think the trouble with the design aspect, I think, Because I did fine art as a study, I think I lack a certain amount of confidence about my abilities in that area.
Perhaps there's a certain amount of lack of ability to some degree which can happen with learning.
I think that always held me back a bit from that area, you know.
But that's very testable, right?
I mean, in terms of whether you have the ability to get paid for it, that's very testable, right?
Which is that you just want to get a job in the field or, you know, you can test that relatively easily because maybe you're insecure and you have a lot of ability or maybe it's a more rational evaluation of your own abilities, right?
So, I mean, I spent a couple of years in theatre school And then did auditions and didn't get a lot of roles.
And so for me, there was some way to empirically test the thesis about whether I would be a big, rich and famous actor, if that makes sense.
No, it does make sense.
I think it's...
I think it's possibly a mixture of both.
I mean, in all honesty, the only time I've ever pushed myself in design areas is purely privately and amongst friends and a few organizations, et cetera, and stuff like that.
And so, but I'm also obviously, the confidence issue is probably something that goes back a long way anyway about most things or about a lot of things so I think it's feasibly potentially a mixture of the both,
you know. So what's sort of stopping you from trying it now?
Yeah. I guess it's primarily money and...
Primarily money.
I mean, it's not so much that I don't have money.
I mean, you know, I do have...
I mean, I'm reasonably well paid in my profession.
But it's not like I'm sort of loaded or feel like I can just take a deep dive off, you know, into something else.
And I guess, I mean, probably procrastination is a terrible trait in me, possibly.
No more than possible, probably probable.
And it's...
And I've looked at the recent more recessional times that we're going into and I feel, is this a good moment to jump off into something else?
I'm not sure that it's an either or all proposition.
I mean, that kind of dualistic thinking might be more defense than anything and what I mean by that is, I mean, The Free Domain Radio community is a great resource for lots of things.
And if you wanted to put your design stuff out there, I mean, you could do t-shirts, you could do logos, you could do graphics, you could do business cards, you could do, you know, whatever it is.
I don't want to do stuff for me, but you could put that kind of stuff out there, and there's a lot of people, a lot of English listeners and so on, they might know people.
I mean, working a network that's set up that's Positive and friendly and kind to begin with.
It's something that you can do relatively easily and without much investment at all in other resources at the moment, right?
I agree, Steph.
You're absolutely right. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
It's certainly something I've considered and feel Yeah, you're right.
I guess, you know, brass tacks is that sometimes I lack a bit of confidence about the whole issue.
And because I've been out of it for so long, I haven't thought about the design or the artistic side of my nature because I dropped it so long ago, you know.
Well, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but there's nothing that you can do about the lack of confidence, right?
Because at the moment, You don't know if the lack of confidence is because you have emotional issues or just because you're not as good as you think you are, you know?
I mean, we all face that, right?
We all face that in a variety of things that we do, right?
I mean, certainly I tried to be a writer for many, many, many years and, you know, failed at six million different things from Sunday.
The question, of course, is not always like, well, you know, gee, if I just did it, it would work out, and therefore I lack confidence.
You may, in fact, not like it as much as you thought.
You may not be as good at it as you thought, and in which case, putting that to the empirical test would seem to me to be a pretty useful thing, right?
Yes, it would. Because then you can either let go of it, right?
You can either say, okay, well, you know, I put out 60 different designs through FDR, got lots of feedback, and I don't really enjoy doing it.
The reason that I kept writing was that I loved it so much.
I wrote book after book after book that never got published because I just enjoyed it.
I know that I enjoy it.
Of course, I did FDR for free for a long time before I started getting paid, and then it was a fairly low-paid second job.
Before growing it further, but I knew that I liked it because I did it for free kind of thing, right?
Whereas if I started, I thought, oh, I want to be a writer and then I sit there and try and write books and I hate it, then it just means that it's just not for me, right?
So you can put this stuff to the test fairly easily, right?
And find out whether it's a lack of confidence or a more unconscious and rational...
Acceptance of the limitations of what you're able to do, if that makes sense?
But it gets you out of this null zone of wanting to do it, but being uncertain.
Yeah, yeah, it does.
I mean, when I said that I was, I mean, I am, I mean, obviously, design, these were things I was particularly good at, maybe perhaps 10 years ago, and I did get a lot of positive feedback on it.
Obviously it requires still an enormous amount of effort.
No one becomes even a mediocre designer overnight.
But finances and my lifestyle at the time was such that it caused me not to pursue that so much.
I don't, I mean like Greg said that this was some, what would you be your ultimate sort of, you know, idea.
Maybe that's a fantasy in my head and maybe you're right.
I agree perhaps that, you know, maybe I'm not good at it.
Maybe I am, maybe it's lack of confidence possibly.
I mean, in terms of, I guess it's how I feel about this particular job I'm in now and how I'd like to progress.
You know, coming to 40 this year and perhaps progress and go into something different that I'd feel a bit more comfortable with and I don't necessarily have to reach the heavy heights of something that perhaps was a fantasy in the past, you know? Am I making sense?
Sorry, time doesn't have anything to do with talent and you certainly will develop your talent if you keep doing it, but if you could do it 10 years ago then you can do it now, right?
It's not like You know, if Al Pacino takes five years off from making movies, it's not like people are going to say, well, I'm not going to hire him when he comes back because he'll have completely forgotten how to be an actor, right?
No, no, no.
That's a salient point.
I guess, yeah, I can't have much more to say on that.
So, do you actually have an education in art?
Yeah, my education was fine arts, painting and sculpture.
Oh, I see. Primarily.
That's what I studied.
So, how did you get from that to basically the welfare bureaucracy?
Well, primarily economic need, I suppose.
I studied quite late.
I went back to university quite late.
I graduated when I was 30, 29, 30, and I moved I obviously left university and I moved in with my brother who recently divorced from his wife and stuff like that.
And there was a lot of economic problems we're having because he was having his children over weekends and stuff like that and we were kind of like supporting each other for a number of years.
I wasn't working, I was managing internet cafes at the time.
That was my job.
And so I found myself going from profession to profession in a sort of arbitrary type fashion, just as a form of economic need, I guess.
At the time, both me and my brother didn't have a lot of money at all.
There was a sort of supporting mechanism, whether it was support in the long run I don't know, but it felt like that at the time and concentration on career at the time seemed a bit of a pipe dream for me.
It was a question of getting cash in the bank.
Alright, so you're not even really in a situation where you'd have to go back to school or anything like that at the moment, right?
No, I don't think I'd have to go back to school.
I've thought about retraining in various different types of software and stuff like that perhaps, and seeing, perhaps seeing, knowing the kind of skills I've picked up in jobs that I've had,
you know, and maybe You know, finding a way of utilizing those in different areas, you know, but retraining myself in, it just happened to be software that I was thinking of in particular.
You know, perhaps sort of more commercial software such as SAP and stuff like that, things like PeopleSoft and stuff, databases and stuff that just sort of like...
I find computing interesting, so it's not like a design interest, but certainly an interest that I felt involved dealing with people and communications and stuff like that.
It sort of interested me.
But no, I don't need to retrain.
I don't need to go back to school and re-educate as such, no.
I meant for graphic design, you wouldn't have to do it, because you've already got the degree behind you.
For graphic design, no, I don't think I'd...
I don't think...
No, I don't. There's nothing...
Well, I said there's nothing more I can learn, you know.
I know that there's always something you can learn, but...
Lack of understanding of how the process that graphic designers go through, no.
So I don't need to educate myself particularly on that, no.
What is it that you're hoping to get out of today's conversation?
I guess trying to understand Partly, part of me is concerned with procrastination to some degree about things, about my changing and moving on to something else.
But also I wanted to hear from other people that perhaps had made these changes and how they went about those changes, I guess.
My thought is that we've got a bunch of stuff out there that you can do, if you wanted, to take a step back towards the design world.
Maybe it would be good to talk about other people who might have made this leap.
Yeah. Well, yes.
I mean, I think I haven't perhaps pursued the resource of FDR as much as I should have done.
So that's something for me to think on, you know.
And yeah, yeah.
Sorry, Greg, this is over to you. this is over to you.
Oh, well, I mean, I think we should get somebody up who maybe has made this leap or is going to do it and talk about that.
Yeah, that's a good idea.
But besides myself, I'm not sure anybody else.
Well, Charlotte, didn't you say you had some questions about this too?
Yeah, but it was mostly in the, I'm sort of where Patrick is, I guess, in terms of being stuck between, well, it's odd in my situation, because I'm stuck between two things I can do, and there's a third that I want to do, but I don't think that I can make it work.
So I was trying to more listen in and get some ideas of where to go from where I am.
Right, right.
Well, my suggestion is always to use the community that you have, and whether that community is FDR or something else.
I mean, that's where I would start, you know, if I had a talent or a skill that I wanted to work on.
And we can see this with people who've posted short stories.
We can see this with people who've posted songs or, you know, some of the animated stuff.
That people have done that you can use the community to start to develop skills and feedback in this area.
There's nothing better than getting feedback on your work, unless it's involving Ron Paul.
People can use the community, and I would really strongly suggest that people should We should use this community, which is a pretty unique and great community from that standpoint, particularly those who, even if they're shy at sort of the Diamond Plus Donator level, you can post on the private board and get feedback on what it is that you're doing.
I remember Greg's posted some short stories.
I've certainly given him some feedback on short stories.
I've posted stuff that I'm working on to get feedback on.
And we've had a number of people who are very happy to give feedback on that.
And of course, you never know where that's going to lead, right?
Networking is everything in business, so if somebody really likes your designs, they may know someone who's looking for a designer, or at least you in your position, you know, that kind of stuff.
So I think that's certainly a good place to start, and it's something where you can begin practicing your trade.
Or whatever it is that you want to do in an environment where you can get feedback, which is always the tough part, right?
Normally, you have to pay for feedback in terms of getting a writing teacher or something like that.
Or you have to sacrifice your job to quit and go do something else.
But a lot of stuff that people are interested in, writing and design and so on, that can be pursued in this community, which I think would be a good place to ask.
I know the one thing, and Carl's not here, but I think he and I are kind of in the same position where, you know, we each have a little bit of savings, and I think that we're each taking the summer off.
I'm kind of minimally working.
Carl isn't working at all just to figure out.
What it is we want to do.
So if there's a way that, you know, you can actually live the life that you think you want for a little while, I think that might go a little ways to helping you figure out if that's what you want as well.
I know that seems like something that Greg has done in the past too.
Oh yeah, for me, like the way that I got rid of the virus of wanting to write fiction was I took a year and a half off and I wrote A bunch of books, and I got enrolled in one of the best writing programs in Canada, and I got a very enthusiastic writing teacher who really liked my work, and I got an agent, and so on.
And that all came about because I was willing to live on the cheap, and so on.
And realizing that I could not put more resources into it than I was doing, and that I had zero success, even with Amazingly positive reviews that I had zero success in my writing.
That certainly freed me up for the next thing, which was FDR, fundamentally, which is a much better use of my time and talent.
So that's all I mean.
When you commit to something, you get certainty.
And the procrastination sometimes can be a desire to live in the I could if I wanted kind of thing.
And I'm not saying that's true of anyone here, but my suggestion is always to throw yourself into it.
And there is always a time when you have to do it free, for sure.
Yeah, I found, frankly, the take time off and the take time off and just hang out thing doesn't work very well, frankly.
Yeah.
Because, at least for myself, it resulted in a total lack of focus.
I mean... If you have the means to not do anything but sit around, you're not going to do anything but sit around, if that makes any sense.
Well, but... You didn't have anything particular that was a thing that you were working on, right?
Right. So, I mean, for sure, I mean, you know, just stopping doing what you're doing won't necessarily open up some grand new avenue, right?
Right, right.
But you've talked about writing, but as far as I know, you haven't done stuff like, you know, picked up books on the writing articles, guidelines, and You know, maybe hired an editor for a couple of hours a week to look at your stuff or sign up for the websites where you can start to sell articles to people or written a blog and try to...
I know that you've been working on a blog, but an article-style blog where you try to get people to get interested in what it is that you're doing.
I mean, that hasn't been something that's been driving you.
It's not a criticism, it's just an observation, right?
Right. That hasn't been something that's been driving you for the last little while.
No, that's absolutely correct.
That's absolutely correct. Yeah, that's something that I've run into, too.
I mean, when I don't have anything like going to work or going to school to structure my time, there's always that thought of, you know, I could do something, but I could also do it tomorrow.
So one of the things is this might be completely arbitrary, but I've actually started trying to schedule things and writing because I'm working on a novel that I've wanted to write since I was 12 and I think I'm finally good enough to actually execute it.
I've actually started scheduling time just to sit down and write.
So if there's something that you really want to do that you're taking the time out to do, you know, if you do it, then I sort of have that sort of...
What was I going to say?
Well, it concentrates the mind, right?
To have a schedule. Right. Thank you, Steph.
Well, they say, you know, that the hanging concentrates the mind wonderfully.
Certainly, running out of money can do quite a bit to motivate you.
I mean, it obviously would be better to not have to end up in that situation, I think, ideally.
But, I mean, certainly for myself, the...
The need to get new listeners, the need to get new donators, the need to continue to hold the interest of existing donators, you know, panic fuels creativity quite a bit.
But necessity is the mother of invention, so to speak.
And so that can be helpful as well, but it's usually better if you can avoid that to some degree.
But it certainly does concentrate the mind quite a bit.
I think it's very ironic that I wasn't able to concentrate on the phrase that I wanted to pull up, which was about concentration.
Right, right.
Well, and it's interesting, too, that, I mean, the disparity and it's interesting, too, that, I mean, the disparity between what we say we want and what
we actually want as exhibited by our actions, bringing those two things into consonants bringing those two things that's a bit of a challenge too, right?
I was just thinking about that.
I mean, if you take time off to do something and then you find yourself not actually doing it, then is that really what you want to end up doing?
And if you want to make a career out of this thing and you can't motivate yourself to do it even when you don't need to do it for a living, then it might be a reprioritization kind of thing.
Right. Right, exactly.
Yeah, you don't want to be that, you know, the dog that finally catches the mail van.
Now what? Huh?
Well, you know, dogs will always chase cars or whatever, and it's always like, okay, so Rover, let's say you catch the car.
Then what? Are you going to bury it?
I mean, what are you going to do when you finally get this thing that you've wanted to Or that you claim you want, right?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Can I cut in?
Surely. Yeah, I was just going to say, I mean, I guess really my biggest issue with the job that I do is purely mainly to do with what it is.
It's a public, what they call public sector sort of government job and I guess that doesn't rest easy with the ideas of libertarianism and I've been listening to for the last three months and I know that there's more to it than just a job that you do, but it's that that I think seems to wrangle with me more than anything.
It's not so much whether I want to be a great designer or anything like that.
Maybe I should, I don't know, but I guess it's The conflicts I have with the ideas.
I feel like a bit of a hypocrite if I was to turn around to tell people these ideas that we talk about.
They say, well, hey, you know, you're a public sector worker, dah, dah, dah, you know, that's, maybe that's an ego thing.
I don't know. It's an area that I... That side of things, then you can, you can shift your skill set to the private sector relatively easily because you've learned a lot of negotiation and management skills.
So there's stuff that you can do, and obviously you've had a wide variety of job experience, so there's stuff that you can do which would be more in the private sector that you could transition to relatively easily compared to somebody who's had a much more specialised career in the public sector.
Yes, you're probably right.
It's making that leap step, I guess, but yes.
And I wouldn't say, I mean, just my particular opinion is that, I mean, if it's going to make you happier, then sure, you know, obviously by all means go for it.
But if you make it have to, then it'll just never happen, right?
I mean, as soon as we try to force ourselves to do stuff, it never works out.
And all that happens is we need to end up with the thing that we're trying to make ourselves do or the peace of mind that comes from saying, to hell with it, I'm just going to not pursue this, right?
I mean, we don't want to end up a life of dissent where we're saying, I should do something different than what I'm doing.
For some abstract ideological reason, and then we end up not doing that thing because we don't really have a very strong motivation to change.
But we also don't end up enjoying that much where we are because we feel like we should always be someplace different.
That's kind of the worst of both worlds, right?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you genuinely wanted to do it because it would make you happier, then you'll find the motivation won't be a problem, right?
But if it's just like, well, I'm comfortable, I finally have some decent scratch for the first time in my life, and now this goddamn libertarian philosophy has taken away my career, then it's not going to be perfect.
No, and I definitely got that from your podcast about the teacher thing.
It made me feel less stressed about that particular thing.
Obviously, I've got so many other issues.
It's not just my job. My whole personal life and stuff, I have to bring those things to bear as well.
So I can't expect to move mountains overnight.
But no, I agree with you.
I don't want it to be a forced thing at all.
I want it to be quite a natural change.
There will certainly be people who will say to you, You're a frickin' hypocrite.
I mean, you talk about being anti-government and you're right in the belly of the beast and what a hypocrite and blah blah blah, right?
There will be those people for sure, and believe it or not, there are also people who say to me that I'm a complete hypocrite for quitting my job and doing FDR full-time, which is about as big a private sector risk as you can take, right?
So, I mean, for sure, there are always going to be people who, you know, every time you lift a finger, there are 10,000 people screaming at you that it should have been the phone, right?
That's just the nature of the world.
I would just not have those people in my life myself, right?
I mean, if all they're going to do is rail and you're being hypocritical when you're dealing with a genuinely difficult economic and career transition, I just wouldn't find those people to be that helpful to be in my life as a whole, if that makes sense.
And I certainly wouldn't make a decision to change my career because I'm afraid of being criticized by aggressive people.
No, you're absolutely right and those people do need to be probably out of my life and that's something I guess is in progress and all this, I mean it's interesting you say that because obviously yes I haven't thought of it in that way and as ever Steph I get tripped over but nicely, thank you. You're welcome.
I know all about this damned libertarian philosophy taking away your career actions.
Damn you with your logic!
Yeah. Ah, the rest of logic strikes again.
But no, you're right.
And not to force this is absolutely...
I've certainly been coming to that conclusion myself that, you know, I can't just do this just because of...
Sorry, it certainly sounds like you're not a stranger to stressors, so to speak, so I would be very careful to not replace former stressors, which you had no control over, with new stressors that you do, right?
Like, finally I'm in a job which I sort of enjoy, and there's no job that's perfect, but it's a job that I sort of enjoy, and I got some money, I got some stability, I've got some security, there's a recession, and blah blah blah, and I just be very careful that you don't use Libertarian philosophy to introduce a kind of stressor that's not necessary in your life.
Yeah, there's enough other non-libertarian stresses, I guess, that need dealing with probably before this one.
Or rather, it doesn't need it.
No, it's very true.
It might also consider that now you think that the problem is that you're not in the private sector, but maybe
if you do something in the private sector, you might figure out that the area you're working in is no longer as fascinating as I noticed that if you listen to a lot of the FDR stuff, then it seems to be, it feels really world-changing or very important.
And then everything seems very small compared to that.
Or you go to your daily job, then it feels very tiny to all the big problems that hang around in the world.
Well, and there's also no magic remedy called the private sector, right?
I mean, I've worked in the public sector and the private sector.
And, you know, there's more than enough corruption and falsehood to go around in the private sector as well.
I mean, the problem is humanity at the moment.
It's not specifically government versus private.
So I don't think that there's a big panacea called, wow, in the private sector my life is 100% more ethical and consistent.
The same problems can arise in the private sector and you can get different problems, particularly with greed for profit because of an illicit system, particularly in the stock market.
You can just end up with different problems.
I don't think that moving to the private sector automatically makes you, you know, gives you the libertarian medal of freedom.
Yeah, indeed.
Well, and I mean, the two are so inextricably interconnected now anyways that there's, it's very difficult to tell the difference between the two.
And I imagine in Britain, it's probably even worse.
*sounds of noise* Yeah, it's a lot worse.
I mean, I don't know about Canada or America so much.
Obviously, I know you guys talk about the rising welfare and, you know, state sort of thing.
I mean, it's been here since I can remember.
I mean, I'm sure Steph will recall from his early days, you know, The subsidy element of government has been very much a factor of British life, I think probably, and I say this in a historic reference, it's probably since the end of the Second World War, much more so than America or possibly Canada as well.
But we're all catching up with Estonia.
So, in that respect, anyways, ideologically we're kind of in a state of nature, really.
I mean, nothing you pick in terms of career is going to be untouched by statism.
Oh, sure. I mean, even where I am, I'm about as close to a pure free market situation as you can guess.
If you accept that handing out stuff free and asking for a voluntary payment is in the free way, which of course it is.
But, I mean, the internet provider that I use is deep in bed with the government.
I still have to pay my property taxes.
I still have to pay income taxes.
I mean, there's no clear separation.
Now, it certainly is a little further away from being in the software field, like from the government.
But in the software field, I mean, so let's say you go work for some SAP company, and then you get a job running SAP for the Department of Welfare.
It's like, okay, well, that was a whole big circular thing, right?
Yeah, that would be funny, wouldn't it?
That'd be kind of ironic. No, you're definitely right.
I have considered those aspects to career change that, as you point out, is that public and private is very much in cahoots with each other.
Yeah, I mean, I guess I've got nothing more to say on that.
Well, and that's why I was thinking that, I mean, in terms of picking a career...
It just makes a whole lot more sense to me that you would go after what it is that you dream about or that you're passionate about and forget about ideology.
If, for example, you like helping people in need in Great Britain, that means Pretty much being involved with the government social services in some respect anyways, right? Either as a private contractor...
You can go to a private charity, but those private charities are supported by tax exemptions, right?
So, I mean, there's just no way to escape it, I think.
Right. Yeah, you're right.
There is no way, isn't there?
I think that's made fairly clear now.
I can concur with that point of view that it is by FDR and then nagging explaining it's like oh you people pay your taxes so you're part of the system and it's like yeah yeah okay blame the slaves for avoiding the whip don't attack slavery right yeah yeah yeah I guess it's just me coming to terms with all these ideas and I suppose it's you know it was obviously it was a hurdle
I had to cross in that sense and you know that's certainly made me feel not like I justify my existence, but just because I feel more comfortable with that.
You're right, we're all under the cosh whether we like it or not.
And that makes a lot more sense.
I would also say that I don't think that the necessity of having some massive monster of philosophical artistic bliss that you have to follow for your lifetime is necessary for happiness either.
I mean, lots of people who are more than happy to, you know, work at a job that they find relatively agreeable and, you know, the passions that they have are in other areas of their life, passionate about sports or philosophy or, you know, whatever it is that gets their mojo going.
But they don't live to work, they work to live.
And that, to me, is perfectly fine.
Because otherwise it's saying, well, you can't be happy unless you have some grand ability or desire in some philosophical or artistic or other kind of professional sphere.
And I don't think that's the case at all.
I don't think that you have to work in philosophy, for instance, to be in love with philosophy.
You can work as an accountant and love philosophy.
You can work as a doctor and love philosophy.
And that would be part of your You know, the life that you have outside of work, which, you know, to me is perfectly you.
You can be a bus driver and be totally into philosophy, right?
So I don't know that you always have to make your life desire your primary occupation.
Just because that would seem to me to require a certain level of skill and ability and tolerance or risk, which is not evenly distributed across the population.
Well, that raises an interesting question, though, because why would it be a life's desire if you weren't capable of it, right?
Oh, well, I mean, gosh, I love music.
I don't have to be a musician, right?
Right, but it's not your life's desire.
Well, but see, even if it was my life's desire...
Well, sorry, it's also partly not my life's desire because I can't be a musician, right?
I mean, if I had the voice of Pavarotti, maybe I never would have done a podcast, right?
Because I sure do love to sing, right?
Right. So it's a yin and a yang thing, right?
I mean, why is it not my life's work?
Well, because I tried playing violin for 10 years and just basically got a good sawing arm out of it.
And because I tried to play piano and, you know, all of that kind of stuff, right?
And because I just didn't have...
The skill, ability, desire.
I tried guitar.
I mean, lots of different things, right?
I even wrote songs and so on and got a garage band going and all this kind of stuff.
And it's like, well, A, I don't really enjoy it, and B, I don't think I'm particularly good at it.
And so, yeah, that then didn't become my life's work, right?
And it doesn't mean that I don't still love music and enjoy it and so on, but, you know, it's sort of a cause and effect circular thing, if that makes sense.
Right, right.
And that could be particularly problematic, those two things combined, if everything that you try ends up either being something you don't enjoy or you're not good at.
Well, sure. But, I mean, life is a whole series of experimentations, right?
To find out what really works.
I mean, it's not like I woke up and said, You know, I'll do the software thing for about 10 years, and then I'll just become a podcaster.
I mean, if you're not in motion, you never get anywhere, right?
So you have to keep out there experimenting and trying things that work or don't work, right?
Right. Right.
But you have to have the motivation to try and experiment, right?
Well, I mean, that's like saying you have to have the motivation to floss your teeth, right?
I mean, it's just a matter of, like, well, what are the alternatives, right?
I mean, if you don't experiment, if you're not happy where you are and you don't experiment with different things, then you're just going to stay unhappy with where you are, right?
Like for you, Greg, I mean, the inevitable result of not vigorously pursuing new opportunities is going to be that you're going to end up back in IT, right?
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, that's just inevitable, right?
Because, you know, man's got to eat and it's not like you're going to go and be a waiter or a dental surgeon, right?
Right. No, that's absolutely true.
I mean, it's not a matter of motivation, it's just a matter of, well, you know, what are the options, right?
It's not like I wake up saying, gee, I can't wait to floss tonight, that's going to be fantastic, right?
It's just that, well, the alternative is, I'm blessing things with the teeth, right?
Usually you start up with something with considerable passion, because that is what you choose to do in the beginning.
If your dreams take a bit of a different course, then it's hard to keep doing it as kind of a sidekick and say, well, I'll just do this to make a living and I keep philosophy as my hobby, for example. Well, sure, and you never know what you try and fail at is how it's going to serve you in the future, right?
As I mentioned in a recent podcast, I mean the amount of things that had to come together for me to be an effective podcaster was largely composed of a whole bunch of things that I failed at, right?
That's an interesting point, yeah.
So just because you fail to make a living at it, like the fact that I failed as an actor, Turned out to be, you know, all of the skills that I learned in terms of voice and projection and the emotional connectivity and throwing yourself.
And of course, I mean, we did a huge amount of improv, right?
So learning to think on your feet, all this, that, and the other.
All of that helped me in both my business career, but was foundational to the success of FDR, right?
You can't tell.
The future is unwritten, right?
You can't tell what's going to be the effective things that you try and fail at and how those skills may or may not serve you in the future.
Life is, I mean, wonderfully unpredictable to say the least, right?
Right.
So for you, Greg, I mean, even if you end up in IT, you're not going to be the same guy that you were in in IT before, right?
No, that's true. So, you've got your social skills up, you've got your thinking on your feet skills up, you've also been very good at mediating conflicts, so all that you've done is taken a year off to learn management skills, and maybe that will give you a different kind of IT career when you go back, right?
Sure, sure, that makes sense.
Where you can actually bring some practical happiness to people's lives.
I mean, I was a philosopher when I was a manager as well, because I was making people's lives happier through my management style than if they'd had some other manager, right?
No, that's true. That's very true.
So, yeah, you just don't know where this stuff's going to end up.
I mean, I spent a lot of time as a writer without getting anything published, but all of that helped very much when it came to FDR, right?
Oh, hugely. I mean, the fact that I can crank out like a book a month is because I spent 20 years Writing, and also because I spent a couple of years podcasting, so because I dictate the books rather than type them, that ability comes out of podcasting.
You never know where these skills are going to end up.
Right. That makes good sense.
I mean, life is a dance.
You want things, but that doesn't mean you're going to get them, and it doesn't mean that you're going to get them in the way that you want them.
You pursue things, but you can't control whether you achieve them.
You have to put out in life and then you have to receive what comes back and work with it.
It's a chance, right? No, that makes good sense.
But rationalists always love to hear, right?
It's true, you know?
I mean, it's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. There's no substitute.
I mean, there's no way you can go that doesn't have risk, right?
Because a lot of us who have these varied careers and uncertainties and so on, we look across at people who are lawyers and say, well, they became a lawyer when they were 23, and they've been a lawyer for 30 years, and look at all the security and so on that they have, and it's not the case that they have these magically happier lives.
I mean, if that were the case, then everybody would be a lawyer, right?
But it's not the case at all.
Yeah, and I guess it makes a lot of sense that...
I mean, they're trapped.
Sorry to interrupt, but I mean, the difference is that they're trapped, right?
If you're a lawyer for 20...
I thought it was my dad, right?
My dad was a geologist, and then he left Africa.
It's like, well, that's not a very portable skill, right?
Very similar to the Kruger's ranch, right?
So he's then...
He's not free to change his career and his occupation because he's got a lifestyle, he's got too much invested in it, and so on.
So it's not like there's all this magical freedom over there in professional land, right?
All that means is that if you don't like your job as a lawyer after 15 years or 10 years, you're completely hosed, right?
Right, right, you're stuck with it.
And you might just like your job, right?
I mean, think about all the poor lawyer bastards who...
We then listen to FDR, right?
It's like, oh man, right?
Yeah, yeah. But I like my job.
Turns out I'm serving evil or whatever, I mean, to use a silly example.
Right. But they may wake up one day and just not like their job at all, and they're completely helpless to leave it.
I mean, what are you going to do? Leave being a doctor and go and become a stunt pilot?
Well, to a certain extent, that's kind of how it felt when I left IT in the first place.
Sure. Yeah. And I mean, you're going to end up back in IT, but be a different person there and a happier person as well.
Well, that all depends.
Well, it doesn't depend that much, because for sure, if you're not vigorously pursuing other opportunities, they're not going to fall into your lap, right?
So what you're doing right now is, without a doubt, going to lead you back to IT. I mean, that's the choice that you're making at the moment, by not vigorously pursuing other opportunities, right?
Right, yeah, I guess that makes sense.
And it's not a criticism, and it's just empirical to look at that what you want to do is go back to IT and be happier.
Yeah, maybe that's exactly right.
Well, that's what you're doing, right?
And you're certainly no fool.
Right. Right, right.
If we just follow the empirical evidence, right.
And, I mean, what could be better, right, in many ways?
You don't have to give up the investment in what you've already done.
But you also don't have to go back and do exactly what you were doing before, which wasn't before you.
I don't know.
Yeah, the thought of going back is not really...
Not really warming my heart, if that makes any sense.
But that's where you're heading, right?
Right. Right.
No, that's true. And again, it's not a criticism.
I mean, you have to accept that that is at least what part of you wants to do, right?
Because you're not doing something to avert that.
No, that's true.
There's definitely a part of me that doesn't want to move forward, for sure.
Well, but I'm not sure that moving forward is the correct definition.
I mean, in a sense, since happiness is the goal and not philosophy, then if you could be happy doing IT, wouldn't that be the optimum solution for you?
Well, just in terms of my skill set, for sure.
Well, I mean, if you could be happy doing something which pays you well versus being happy with something that doesn't pay you at all, A pretty good performer would be a preferable solution, right?
Right, right.
I mean, unless you're into, you know, eating the toes thing, right?
Right, right, right. No, that's for sure.
So, I don't know that it's retrograde or bad or negative or whatever to go back to IT at all.
I don't think that you could make the case for that.
In fact, I would say that that would be the optimal solution if you could go back and be happy to.
Yeah, but I'm not sure that...
Well, part of you is very sure that you can be happy back in IT, right?
Because that's where you're heading, right?
And you're not like a lemming, right?
Well, right, because I'm not doing anything else at the moment.
Right, I mean, if a man is in a boat, he's floating downriver and he's not paddling to either shore, we can assume that at least part of him, if not the mid-well, certainly the active part of him, wants to go down the river, right?
Sure. Sure, that makes sense.
And so either you're doing something completely self-destructive and you're floating down a river to go off a waterfall, or you can be happy in IT, and that doesn't mean perfectly happy because that's not the case for anyone, but it means that you feel that you can be happy in IT and you don't have but it means that you feel that you can be happy in IT and you don't have to go through all of the risk and expense and so on and
Well, sure.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah.
And Greg, is there maybe a way to slightly turn the destination?
I mean, talking about lawyers earlier, I know a lawyer who is a market anarchist and he now helps companies to evade taxes.
So you can maybe turn the ship a little bit around.
Well, but see, if Greg wanted to be that, if he wanted to do that, then he would have already done that, right?
Maybe he needs a good ID or how to turn it around.
Well, but he hasn't been, and again, this is not a criticism of Greg, we're just trying to work empirically, right?
Which is that he hasn't been assuming any other options to returning to IT, right?
Yeah, that's true. I mean, I've been...
He knows that if he wants to be a writer, then he's going to have to do X, Y, and Z, right?
Well, what is X, Y, and Z? Well, but you know that, right?
And you also know that there are writers around on FDR that you could ask, right?
Which you haven't done. Again, it's not a criticism, just we're looking at the facts of where it is that you want to go.
Right, right, right.
No, that's fair. I've been totally avoiding it.
If you were paid a million dollars to get an article published in six months, nothing could stop you pursuing that, right?
That's true. And so if you haven't pursued it, it's because it's just not that big a value for you, right?
I'm not saying it should be.
It is what it is, right?
Right, right, right, right.
No, you're absolutely right. I've been thinking about that, too.
So, I mean, in many ways, I think that you've done kind of exactly the right thing as far as your happiness goes, which is that you have spent time to get to a place or a situation where you are going to be where you were,
but happier, right? So you get all the bonuses, you get the happiness, And you also get the increased income, that hugely increased income that comes from not having to retrain and start over in some other profession, right?
Sure. That seems like a pretty optimal solution to me.
And you don't love writing.
I mean, you like writing.
Yeah. But you don't love it.
No. Because if you loved it, you would be doing it for four hours a day, right?
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Right, so again, you know, we can just work empirically with happening and figure out what you want.
No, and that's absolutely right.
I mean, I've tried that a couple of times, and I just, I can't, I can't, I can't do that.
Yeah, you don't like it. Yeah.
But it doesn't necessarily need to be writing.
Every once in a while, every once in a while I get a good idea, and that's why I have the blog, and that's, that's good enough.
Oh, sure, yeah, absolutely.
Hello? Hello?
Oh. I thought I got disconnected there.
Now what were you saying, Peter? Sorry.
I thought it doesn't necessarily need to be writing.
It could be that tomorrow suddenly a great idea pops in your head in which you can use your IT skills and still use them for something that That has something to do with freedom as well.
I wouldn't know what it is, but...
Sorry. Yeah, that's an interesting idea.
I don't know where I'd go with that.
Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that...
A good idea is about to pop into your head any more than, you know, a fantastic hit single is about to pop into my head, right?
I mean, these things either happen or they don't, right?
Right. And I just, I don't mean by that that you don't have good ideas or anything, but I think what Peter was mentioning, right?
I mean, I wouldn't, I don't hold my breath saying, you know, I'm going to come up with the next PayPal, right?
Right. I mean, it's just, I mean, because When you talk about people, when you talk with people about, like, I mean, I dated a girl once who was a cousin of Freddie Mercury's, a second cousin or something like that.
And she said that, you know, the first time he touched a piano, you couldn't get him away from it.
And that he would spend hours practicing singing when he was like seven or eight or nine years old, right?
Mm-hmm. I mean, you just couldn't take it away from him no matter what, right?
And then when he would sit down to write music, the music would just come out, right?
Like frickin Mozart when he's five, right?
Plunking down some song, right?
I mean, it doesn't just pop up when you're 40, right?
Right. No, that's right.
But your career is not quite set.
I mean, you also had changes.
You were in software and acting, and at some point an idea popped in your head and made you change course.
Well, sure. I was active though, right?
I mean, everything that I came up with came out of being active in some prior sphere, right?
So when I ended up being a business owner, that occurred because I was working part-time with my brother while having a full-time job programming COBOL at a bank, right?
So we were writing software on the side and then we met somebody who was able to raise investments so we started a company and I quit my job.
In the same way that FDR started as a way to kill time in the commute, so if I hadn't started that process, FDR would not have existed.
If I wasn't in action, opportunities would not have been created, right?
Yeah, I can follow it.
Certainly nothing falls into your lap, right?
I mean, you have to be active in the pursuit of something in order to create opportunities.
Yeah, I can attest to that.
You also once mentioned that you were lying in a hammock and suddenly realized I have to quit contact with my brother, for example.
Sometimes you need to reflect a little bit to set a new course.
Well, that is very true, of course.
Damn you for remembering all this stuff.
But the reality is that that came after a year of therapy and journaling too, right?
So I was already in action in order to create that insight, though I certainly did not predict that that was about to happen.
So where we're not in action and exploring alternatives, what we're saying is we wish to return to where we started from.
And again, there's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, that's just an observation of the inevitable result of inaction.
And when I say inaction with regards to you, Greg, I certainly don't mean that you haven't been doing anything.
I mean, you've been doing a hell of a lot of work, but you haven't been doing work in terms of career swapping.
Right. That's absolutely true.
So what you're doing is you're saying, I could not continue in the career, and you didn't really have a career before, right?
I mean, you'd go to work and you'd do the same thing every day.
Right. Can you hear me?
I can hear you. Okay, yeah.
No, no, no, you're absolutely right.
I... It wasn't really a career so much as it was just a job.
Right. Maybe it is the easiest way to make a living and have a great hobby on the site or a passion on the site.
But you can bring philosophy to anything.
I mean, that's the beauty of philosophy, right?
It's not like juggling, right?
You can't bring juggling to a meeting unless you're a hired clown, right?
But in terms of philosophy is highly portable.
Philosophy is the ultimate accessory.
It goes with everything, right?
No matter what you're doing for a living, self-knowledge, wisdom, philosophy, negotiation, principles are going to be incredibly helpful.
I mean, not always easy, but incredibly helpful.
It's going to uniquely differentiate you from everybody else in the room, right?
Yeah. Yeah, and that's not always a positive thing.
Well, it's not always an easy thing, for sure.
Right. But it certainly means that you'll have more than a job.
How so? Well, because if you bring in principles and depth and philosophy and so on, To your career, it means that you'll either get fired or you'll be a manager.
Or both. Huh?
You can't be a manager at a place you get fired from.
Unless you want to be a stalker.
Is that George Casenza, right?
He didn't get fired? You get a job as a manager and then get fired.
Well sure, but that just means you'll get a job as a manager somewhere else, right?
which is more conducive to what it is that you're doing.
Steph, I certainly attest to that idea about using philosophy in your job.
Yeah.
It does have a certain impact on people, even when you don't go into any great detail, but you use the methods of the philosophy, you're absolutely right.
There is a certain sense of fulfillment in that, so it doesn't have to be...
Even if we just look at real-time relationships, the primary philosophical work that we're dealing with, RTR is fantastic for conflict resolving, which is a lot of what management is.
Yes, indeed. And that's how we spread philosophy, right?
We spread philosophy by helping people solve problems.
So if we are a manager and we teach a bunch of people how to resolve their differences through RTR, then they'll bring that home with them, right?
Because it works, right? People won't ever stop fundamentally doing something that works if they can get it to work within their own life.
So in that sense, you're absolutely spreading philosophy and virtue and so on.
So perhaps the aim is we should just concentrate.
Obviously, earning a living is one side of our lives and then perhaps putting the more passionate side of our lives or those sort of things.
we should put them on the other side of our life and hope maybe they Maybe one takes over the other or whatever.
Hopefully the passionate side, that would be either as Peter said, you know, it was kind of like a hobby or something that keeps you happy, but perhaps it takes over your work life as well and you start to make money from it.
I don't think you want to create artificial divisions.
You don't have to be a full-time philosopher to practice philosophy, right?
But And to the degree that you can bring philosophy into your work, I think you will end up with a more satisfying career in one way or another.
Sure, sure.
Well, and the idea of philosophy is...
I mean, the whole idea is not to keep it in a separate sphere, but to actually integrate it into your day-to-day living, right?
So whatever it is you do professionally or personally, the ideas that you get out of philosophy should be informing those actions, should be...
For sure, the whole point of being a nutritionist is to help the non-nutritionist eat better, right?
Right. Right.
But even in your own life, right?
Right. The nutritionist doesn't leave his nutritionist information at the office.
He, you know, uses it in his own life, right?
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
And you certainly don't have to be a nutritionist to eat better, right?
Right. So,
do you actually...
This is for Patrick.
Do you actually want to...
Did you actually want to change jobs, or were you just looking for...
Were you more just looking for...
whether or not you should change jobs.
Hello?
Can anyone hear me?
Thank you.
I can hear you. I'm still there.
I can hear you too.
Okay. I'm sorry, Geiger.
on here as well.
Oh, okay.
But I was just wondering if you were actually ... ...
If your motivation was actually to find another career or whether it was actually just speculation about whether you should change careers or not, do you see the distinction there?
Was that directed at me?
Yeah. I mean, the more...
I've had this discussion, I've been listening on that.
There is a sense that, you know, I don't want to be battling with my career over some libertarian issue.
No, that's certainly not the case.
If the design aspect, whatever, which was something That I was obviously passionate about previously and stuff.
And for whatever, maybe that will come back.
and um but no I certainly sort of feel I feel more comfortable about um what it is that I do and uh you know it's um it's coming to an understanding about you know the world we live in And that certainly has been made more clear to me tonight.
So in that sense, yeah, it's not necessarily about changing jobs or whatever.
I mean, that might happen.
I still think about it now, but it's not an urgency.
Right, right, right.
So yes, perhaps I've been slightly dishonest.
Have I? I don't know.
Well, I mean, maybe confused is a more accurate term.
I wouldn't say you were necessarily lying to anybody.
No, I think there was a certain amount of confusion about...
Where I'm at with my job and with these new ideas are now very new to me.
I mean, you know, you're talking to somebody that for many years was probably a socialist, then a moral relativist up until probably, I don't know, five or six months ago, you know, and suddenly being turned around.
I suppose it feels like I've been turned around.
Although I feel like I've been kind of working towards this position, but I didn't know it, you know.
Right, right. Well certainly, the enthusiasm for pursuing the design option was underwhelming.
It's like, oh, here's a barrier.
Oh, we can lift that away.
It's like, oh really? Okay, here's another barrier.
Oh, we can get rid of that one pretty easily.
Oh really? Okay, so I certainly got this.
That's why I asked you what you wanted to get out of it because I certainly didn't get the sense that you wanted to get the freedom to pursue a design career out of the conversation.
No, I mean, I... No.
As ever. Yeah.
No, I... It's, um...
You know, it's all... Yes.
No. What can I say, Steph?
You tricked me up again, so...
But yeah. I don't feel like I have to change careers, I guess, or in any great sort of thing, but it's all these things all at once, the ideas all at once, and I'm sure perhaps people on here can testify to that feeling.
It's rather intense and you're embroiled with it.
I listen to your podcast in the morning when I go to work, I listen to it when I come back at lunchtime.
And, you know, you've got these ideas swimming in your head, and they're exciting ideas, you know, and no question about it.
I mean, the way you...
If you grow your hair long and get a very small earbud, you don't need to let that annoying bit in the middle of the day interfere with listening to more podcasts.
No. Okay.
Hmm. Well, I'm going to...
Sorry, I have to roll, so I'm going to drop off the call.
I have something to do appreciate. I think it was very, very interesting, and I hope that it's been helpful for people.
Yes, it has. Thank you. It surely has.
Yeah, bless you. Thank you.
Don't let me stop anything, but I'll talk to you guys later.
Sorry, Steph.
Bye.
Okay.
Bye now.
So how do you feel, Greg, about that?
you Ha ha ha ha ha.
Yeah.
That was an interesting conversation, I think.
Plenty to think about, for sure.
Yes, it's interesting to think.
I mean, I think the thing that's magnified to me particularly was the idea that perhaps I was confusing the private sector with the public sector.
I certainly was before this conversation, even in recent weeks, I thought there's not a lot of difference, you know, but that was really made quite loud and clear to me, I felt.
And the idea of bringing the philosophy, which I have done in my own job to some degree, you know, I bring those ideas to bear, not necessarily definitively or outwardly like we talk about them, you know?
Right. Just in the way that I pursue decision making and stuff like that, you know, and it's definitely that side of Of FDR, whatever you want to call it, the ideas we have, that bring a certain amount of satisfaction to any situation, job or otherwise, socially, that sort of thing.
Yep. Well, it's definitely been an interesting hour and a half for me.
Yeah. Shall we call it a wrap?
Yeah, I think, uh...
I mean, unless anybody else has anything they want to say, I think we're pretty much done here.
Yeah. Alright, guys.
Alright. Okay, great.
Okay. Bye.
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