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May 17, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
48:35
1068 Worshipping Lovers
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This conversation came about because Colleen was feeling very sad after a sort of foggy what happened email that came from a friend of hers, or I guess a recently ex-friended friend of hers.
And so she had a dream which made her sad, and she was feeling sad about something she'd been working on in therapy, which was that her father and mother had put her in a kind of home-based daycare, if I understood it correctly, when she was sort of two or three to five years old with a really sadistic and cruel woman. when she was sort of two or three to five
And then her father, when she had complained about this later, said, oh, you seemed happy, and nobody paid any attention to her feelings of fear and frustration at being handed over to this crazy, sadistic woman.
So we began talking about this because she couldn't figure out how this was related to her family, since she already knew about the corruption of her family.
So we Skyped it up from there and hope this makes sense.
Thinking that...
Since you say that, and of course I'm sure you're right, but you say that you're relatively reconciled to your dad's prior crappy behavior, that it's not probably a lack of security in the past that is causing the current feelings of sadness.
I'm sorry, that was confusing for some reason.
No problem. Probably because I said it confusingly.
I mean, the sadness feels somewhat new, right?
Yeah. And therefore, it can't be...
I mean, just logically, it can't be about knowledge you already have if you already have it, right?
Because if the feeling is new, then the knowledge must be new as well, right?
Right. And since you know a lot about the corruption of your parents...
The feeling can't be about that.
No. I mean, isn't that what's sort of confusing?
Yeah, yeah.
And, I mean, it's a deep kind of sadness, so it must be about an early experience, but it can't be completely about your parents, because otherwise it would feel more familiar, right?
Right. So, my general way of approaching this, whether it works or makes sense or not, I'll just spin it out.
My way of approaching this in myself is if I feel a new kind of sadness about an old kind of thing, it must mean that there's something in my current life that is recreating something that happened earlier.
And that's what you sort of said earlier about that it's coming up in your life again.
Yeah. Yeah. And you said it was coming up at work as well, right?
That you were feeling like this fear of these impossible situations and being attacked and so on, right?
Right, right. But...
I would look not at work, and this is going to sound more negative than it is, so I'll say it up front, but I would look closer at your relationship with...
Yeah, I would look closer at your relationship.
Okay. And the reason that I say that...
Is that we've talked a little bit before about some of the problems of protection within your relationship.
Right. And I guess where I would...
Because what's happening is that When you were a kid, you had this lunatic, evil, sadistic, quote, babysitter, right?
Mm-hmm. And your father was not protecting you from that situation.
Right. And...
More recently, this is not to put Katie into the same category, of course, right?
But you had this relationship with Katie and with Jessen that was difficult and negative, right?
Right. And your doodly, to want of a better phrase, was not protecting you from that.
Right. And I think that's important, right?
And again, this is not, I mean, it's hard to do this in relationships, and you guys are both working through this stuff, so this is not meant to be any kind of disastrous criticism.
I'm just trying to find a way that the feelings can make more sense.
Yeah. And I know that you guys have talked about that since the last time we talked.
You had a long conversation about this question of protection.
Right, yeah, we did.
and how do you feel that that was resolved or to the degree that that was resolved? - Well, it seems it seems like we, that whole day, we worked through a lot of stuff
but when it comes to that issue, it's still like...
it doesn't seem like much can really be resolved until like it until some a situation like that were to occur again yeah Well, but in terms of what's happened with Katie, that's not an event, that's a process, right?
Right. I mean, it's not like you just say to a friend, I don't think it's working out, and you dust your fingers and wander off, right?
Right. It's a process of...
You know, figuring out what happened, what went wrong, what went right, you know, what can be learned for the next time and so on to make sure that, you know, better friends come your way, right?
Right, right.
And, I mean, Rich is going to have a lot to do with that, right?
If he wants. And has that been occurring?
Well, we talked a lot more about how that relationship came to be and some of his early thoughts on it and just realizing some of where we went wrong as far as when he could have we talked a lot more about how that relationship came to be and some of Right.
and how are you feeling when we talk about this?
I'm feeling kind of nervous.
Yeah, you seem a little tense.
And this is in no way to say that the relationship is bad or anything.
We're just trying to figure out the connections, right?
Right. But what do you feel tense about?
Do you feel like he should be in on the call?
I'm perfectly happy to postpone it or whatever, right?
But the feelings of what you're experiencing.
Um... I... I'm feeling like...
Yeah, maybe it is that I want him here.
He's at the doctor at the moment.
Yeah, we can totally wait.
I mean, whatever's going to be most comfortable for you.
And this is nothing to do with...
With disrespecting Rich or anything like that, we're just trying to figure out the connections that may be occurring for you.
And by connections, I don't mean any kind of equation of Rich with your dad or anything like that.
But just, you know, where we have particular sensitivities, it's, you know, our partners have to be like triple careful, right?
I mean, that's just the nature of navigating a relationship.
Yeah. I guess I just, I don't want to say anything wrong.
Negative about him.
Like, I'm just...
Well, so, I mean, it's not a question of negative, I think.
I mean, that's sort of my perception.
Which is, I'm trying to think of a sort of good example.
So, Christina is sensitive around authority figures, right?
And if people bully Christina, simply because of her upbringing, she tends to fold, right?
Right. And so I have to be extra, extra careful around that particular issue.
Now, it's not that I'm a bad guy if I'm not extra, extra careful around that issue, right?
Because, you know, it's hard to always process that stuff in the moment.
Right. Right?
It's just that I can be...
Even better. Like, it's not around plus or minus.
It's around plus, plus, plus, right?
In terms of being extra better.
When I remember that there's this sensitivity around stuff, right?
Right. So, yeah.
So, I mean, that's just sort of what I'm saying is that it's not a matter of...
Of saying anything negative, but a matter of, you know, it could be potentially more positive, or at least if you're aware of it, then you can ask for more of what you need in the relationship, if that makes sense.
Right, and I think that's some of what I'm having trouble with.
Asking for certain things.
Right, and the first challenge is to know what you need, right?
Yeah. I mean, and usually, if we know what we need, then we can ask for it, right?
Right. But what I find is that when I ask for what I need in a relationship, I can almost never put forward a complete thesis, right?
Saying, because of what happened when I was six, I'm sensitive about X, Y, and Z, and if you could provide it in this, that, and the other manner, and here's a blueprint, and here's a spreadsheet, and you know, it never works that way, right?
Right. I mean, what we want, because the other thing, too, what we want in relationships is really complex, because...
First of all, we have these sensitivities around certain issues and we don't want those sensitivities to be hurt, right?
Right. But at the same time, we also don't want to control the other person's behavior to manage our own sensitivities, right?
Right, right. So it's a complex negotiation, right?
There may be times where we will, like there may be times where I will be very careful with Christina's sensitivities, but with the goal of not being careful around them in the future, right?
Right. Because, I mean, the goal is that, you know, we're sensitive around these things, she built up her strength, and then we don't need to be, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, it's a constant negotiation.
You know, it's like, I know I have this irrational sensitivity, or it's irrational relative to the current relationship, so I need a little bit of space, let's work on it.
And then, you know, when we've worked on it, I can be more robust in that area, right?
So, it's not like you express your needs and then that's it for the rest of the relationship, right?
Right. Yeah.
And, yeah, we don't want to take our scar tissue and use it to control the other person, right?
Because that's not good, right?
Right. Right. But at the same time, we can't pretend that we don't have the scar tissue, you know, because that distances us, right?
Yeah. So all I'm saying is that it's mighty complex, right?
So this is, again, this is not a deficiency.
This is just a, you know, sort of bonus thing.
Right, yeah, that makes sense.
And what, how was Rich with your, with the letter from Katie?
Um... Well, when I got home, after I had read it, he was doing something at the moment, so I got into the chat and started to talk about it.
And he came out later, and I told him that I got it.
And he asked me, How I felt about it or just ask me about it.
And I... I kind of withdrew a little bit.
You mean to Switzerland?
I kind of withdrew a little bit.
No, I wasn't so much to Switzerland.
It was... Or maybe it was.
I just couldn't sort out my thoughts about it.
Right. So you feel you have to present a thesis, right?
Yeah. But that's not how relationships ideally work, right?
Right. I mean, the RTR thing is, I'm bothered and I don't know why.
Or, I don't know what I feel about this, but I'm sure I feel something.
Or whatever, right? Mm-hmm.
Right. Sorry, Rich just came home.
Dude! Well, put him on.
Okay. How's it going?
Um, just talking about...
Some stuff. About us.
What kind of stuff? We're talking about the whole thing about...
About how I make it about me every time?
No. Is everything okay at the doctor's festival?
Yeah. It's acid reflux.
Years and years and years have built up scar tissue in my throat, so I've got to...
Start taking some medication to reduce the acids, so hopefully the swelling will go down in my throat.
Wow. Yeah.
That's no fun. No.
I'm sorry to ambush you with the convo, but we were just talking about Katie's letter.
Yeah, and I'm unaware of what that letter contained or anything.
Yes, so when did you get the letter?
Colleen? Just when I woke up.
Today? This morning, yeah.
Right, okay. And sorry, Rich, again, sorry to ambush you, but we were just talking about how Colleen didn't feel particularly...
Were you saying you withdrew a little bit from talking about it?
Yeah. And why do you think that was?
I mean, talk about it with you, Rich.
Sorry, just so we know what that's about.
Right, right. She hasn't talked about it with me or anything.
We were just sort of pointing that out.
So, yes. I mean, when I asked her about it, she just kind of said, like, I don't...
I asked her, so what's going on?
And she says, oh, I got a letter from Katie, and I had a dream last night that...
And I think you said that you were feeling upset.
Yeah, sad. Yeah, and I asked...
Asked you, what did I ask you?
I can't remember, but whatever I asked you, you said, I don't know.
And it just seemed like, I don't know, it felt to me like I was being cut off, like you didn't want to talk about it.
And what did you, Rich, what did you do when that happened?
Well, first of all, I wasn't honest about how I was feeling.
I was feeling a little frustrated.
And also, I've been rushing around all morning getting ready for this trip and also getting ready for the doctor's appointment, so I was also in the middle of things and I wasn't honest about...
I should have said, I need to do these things before we can talk about this, and I didn't say that, so I was sitting there thinking about other things as well.
And so I became frustrated as...
I questioned her more and became more frustrated when...
She didn't say anything, and then I noticed she was talking to somebody online about the letter and about her dream, and I kind of got peeved.
I kind of said, why are you talking to him about it?
Why don't you talk to me about it?
Right, right, right.
And then I got frustrated and stood up and walked into my room and ended the conversation.
Right. Right. Right.
So, I mean, that was kind of like a Simon the Boxer thing for you both, right?
Yeah. And in what way?
Well... I know in my own life, I mean, my mom would get frustrated and storm out of the room quite often.
And... I have a tendency to create frustrating situations, so I have an excuse to storm out.
Right. And did your mother involve you in problems and then not...
Like, would your mother say, I have a problem, and then refuse to take solutions or to discuss further?
I can't remember any specific instances, but I mean, that seems to ring true.
And I remember that happening in my past relationship as well.
Right. Okay. Right.
Right. Because, I mean, particularly, I think, Colleen, where you're coming from is that people didn't listen to your problems, right?
Right. So when you were sent to this crazy, sadistic woman when you were from two to three to five...
And you were like crying and I don't want to go and this and that, right?
What happened was people were like, pat, pat, pat, oh, run along, she's just nervous of strangers and blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
Right. So your distress was kind of, and I'm not equating you, Rich, with this, right?
But when you were a kid, your distress was kind of coldly rejected, right?
Right. And so when you feel distress...
It's really agonizing to stand for attention, to ask for attention, right?
Right. And so you're driven to recreate the rejection, right?
Right. Because if you don't recreate the rejection, then you feel the pain of the past that much more keenly, right?
Right. Does that make any sense?
Yeah, it does.
Go on. Because without having dealt with how that felt as a kid and if he were to, if somebody were to really like listen and help me sort it out, it would just make it that much more obvious what wasn't done.
Right. Right, for sure.
And it would require that you really prize yourself, which is sort of against the programming, right?
Right. And so you will bring something up when Rich is busy, right?
Yeah. And has some place to go and so on.
Yeah. Yeah. And then you feel sad and you have to manage the feeling of rejection, right?
Yeah.
And there's no small amount of anger behind that, and I don't mean towards Reg.
Right, because you were saying that you had been put in an impossible situation by – This woman when you were a kid, right?
And also, of course, by your parents.
Right. So then you'll bring up something with Rich when he's busy and gotta go somewhere, and then you'll withdraw from talking about it further, thus putting him in an impossible situation, right?
Right. And then you'll go and talk about it with people online, thus kind of making him mad, right?
Right, I was talking to them before that came up.
Well, I'm not sure that that's actually a better solution, if that makes sense.
I mean, if Rich hears, well, I first went to talk to other people, I'm not sure that that's going to make him feel a whole lot better, if that makes sense.
Right, right. Does that make sense, Rich?
Yeah, I just...
But also my reaction to it, it feeds into it, so it's like...
I'd like to avoid that as well.
Oh, we'll get to you. Okay, good.
Right, no, for sure. We're just talking about the one side of it, right?
Okay. Right, yeah, I can see that.
And so, that's sort of the one side of it, right?
Now, the other side, and this is going to sound all kinds of nuts, but, you know, this is the way it is, right?
So, give me just a mental map of the morning.
So, Colleen, you got up earlier than Rich, or like, why was it you were talking to people about this and not Rich?
Well, I got up earlier and then I went to work and then figured out that I wasn't scheduled until later.
So I came home and I think you were like in the shower or something.
So then I got online and started to talk in the chat to James about it.
And was that because you are afraid of sitting on your toilet and talking to Rich in the shower?
Because you can clean the toilet.
Sorry, just kidding. But you understand, right?
Like, when someone's in the shower, they're not exactly on the island of lost, right?
Right, right. So why was it that you didn't sit down and talk about it with Rich while he was in the shower?
I think it's just the whole talking online thing is just a lot...
It makes me a lot less nervous for some reason.
Well, I can understand that, but it's certainly not easier given the fallout that happens in your relationship, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Right?
I mean, obviously, we want to do that, which is easier overall, right?
And it's not easier overall to talk on – And again, I'm not saying don't talk online.
Obviously, that would be a shame.
But when Rich is available and there to talk, that's where you should be going first, in my opinion, right?
Right. Because when you decide to go to the online thing, you're already setting things in motion that are going to cause problems, right?
Right. Because to some degree, Rich is going to feel like, well, you know, what am I, freshly showered chopped liver?
Right, right. So, when he was in the shower, did you have a thought or urge to talk to him about how you were feeling?
I did. And you felt anxiety about that, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And why?
What was the thought or what was the anxiety about?
The thought, and I know this doesn't, I don't think this has anything to do with him, is like, he's not going to understand it.
Well, but you can speak slowly and use big, like small words.
Yeah. Or finger puppets work as well.
This is my anger puppet.
Things like that. Because, yeah, I mean, with Rich, I mean, I know it's tough.
I don't mean that in the way that, like, he's not...
No, I know. I know. Like, he's...
I just... It's this feeling of, like, he's...
Like, I can't relate?
Yeah. No, it's like you can't...
You're not going...
I don't know why.
It's just like you're not going to care as much as I need you to or something like that.
And it doesn't have anything to do with you.
It's just... I don't know.
So what would RTR, to be annoying, what would RTR demand in that situation?
That I would say...
I've got something that I really want to talk about, but for some reason I'm anxious about it and I don't know why.
Yeah, something like that, right?
Yeah. And then he's going to say, damn it, woman, I'm showering.
Go talk to people online.
Maybe they don't care. You know, something like that.
And then we'll have the thesis amply confirmed, right?
Yeah. And RTR is damn hard, right?
Yeah. I still think it's easier than the alternative, but there's no question that it's damn hard.
Yeah. But sorry, you were saying?
It's like, this problem we keep running into is that...
Always after the fact, we're like, RTR-ing about our feelings initially would have been a whole lot easier than RTR-ing in the middle of it, because we're always like, things go a little bad, and then we're like, okay, we should RTR now.
Right, right. Now that we're armed, let's start shooting.
Right. No, it is.
It is. And the earlier you can do it, the better off it's going to be, right?
Because... The challenge is that, you know, if Colleen comes into the shower, or let me not do that story.
If Colleen comes into the bathroom, I'd like to rub up against you with my problems.
Let's see where this goes. But if she comes into the bathroom and she says, you know, I am nervous that you're not going to pay attention to what it is that I have to say, then the great temptation is to take offense, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And to say, what are you talking about?
I always pay attention to what it is that you say.
I really care about it. Where is this coming from?
What have I done to deserve this?
You know, that kind of stuff, right? Right.
As opposed to, tell me more, right?
Not taking it personally, right?
Yeah, yeah. Now, did you feel that that might occur, Colleen, that if you go in and say, I have a feeling that you are a heartless bastard, but don't take it personally?
Right. Yeah, I did.
Okay. And Rich, is that an unfounded fear?
I mean, are you able to listen to this and just recognize that, you know, the foo is in the house and that it's not personal?
No, to be honest, I mean, my anxiety shoots through the roof when she tells me things like that.
And I instantly want to go into that like, well, no, I always listen to you.
What are you talking about? Like, I get real defensive.
And It's, uh, yeah, it's definitely something I have a problem with, is talking about all my emotions.
I instantly go into this, like, defense mode rather than talking about how I'm feeling.
Well, and the defense, see, defense is always attack, right?
Right, yeah, I feel like I'm being attacked.
Well, no. Defense is attacking Colleen, right?
Oh, yeah, right, right.
Because when she says, I feel X, and you say, there's absolutely no reason for you to feel X, you're completely wrong, and it's unjust that you feel it, right?
Yeah, and I know that's such a food thing.
Right, and, you know, we all know how that kind of stuff works out, right?
Right, right. And it is tough to break these habits, right?
Because the habits have been wired in childhood, and also they've been wired into this relationship, right?
Which, again, doesn't mean that the relationship is bad or anything like that, but it just means that it's going to take some effort to unplug these wires.
Yes, yes. And I really do want to do that, because I know how poisonous that is.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you guys are a great couple, and you should take these hiccups out of the relationship, because that's where the real flowering and flourishing grows.
But yeah, this thing about...
See, this thing about when somebody's upset, what do you do?
To me, it's a matter of prioritization.
So, if Christina's upset and I have to go to the doctor and she's really upset, I'm just not going to go to the doctor.
Yeah, yeah. Now, I mean, there are costs to that and maybe it's another week until I get an appointment.
Maybe I have to pay a cancellation fee, whatever, whatever, right?
But, you know, compared to the alternative...
Like I want Christina to always know that she is the number one priority.
And the interesting thing is that if she truly understands that she's the number one priority, then I don't have to cancel my doctor's appointment, if that makes sense.
Right, right.
But I want her to understand that her problems are my highest priority, that her happiness is my highest priority.
And that creates a feeling of security for her, which allows us to be able to postpone things without problems.
How did my priorities become so out of whack?
Okay.
Well, it's obviously not because you don't think the world of Colleen and love her deeply or anything like that.
So it's clearly not that.
It's not like, well, take her or leave her, whatever.
If she's got a muffin, I'm happy.
If not, she's not worth anything to me, right?
Maybe muffin, maybe something else.
But it's not because of that, clearly, right?
Right. And, of course, in hindsight, obviously you do want to go and get – but the problem with the throat is not as time-sensitive as her upset and the fallout of her feeling like she's somewhere down on the list.
Yeah, yeah. And we all get these unconscious prioritizations all the time.
All the time, right? I mean, and this is not to equate this, right?
But you see me on the board a million times when people come storming in talking about, you know, how corrupt and false I am.
You know, when I sort of put out the list, it's like, okay, so there's the Vatican, there's public schools, there's the army, there's religion as a whole, there's Islam, there's, you know, all of these crazy cults all over the world.
There's Scientology, there's this, that, and the other.
And of all of these, you are focusing your entire efforts and outrage upon some voluntary charitable internet philosophy club, right?
Right. Because we all get these implicit prioritizations.
And that's why, of course, it's just funny, right?
I mean, it's just funny that people would start picking on this philosophy club as the most important corrupt place that they're going to spend their outrage and energies on, right?
Right. So we always get these unconscious prioritizations, you know, that we're just constantly calculating where we stand with relation to other people.
It's unconscious, it's inevitable, it just happens.
And if we recognize that, then we, I think, move to take proactive elements to make sure that the other person knows that they're number one, right?
Right, because you said, well, there were two things.
You said, I'm getting ready for a doctor's appointment, and I'm planning a trip.
Yeah, flying to Atlanta this evening.
Right. Right.
Right. Right.
Now, obviously, if you had to choose between...
And this is not to say this is the case.
This is just a theoretical. But obviously, if you had to choose between saving your relationship and flying to Atlanta, you'd not go to Atlanta, right?
Oh, right. Right. And again, I'm not saying that's the case, right?
Not at all, right? If you had to choose between...
Saving your relationship and finishing your shower, you'd get out of the shower.
Or going to see the doctor, you'd not go see the doctor, right?
Right. And if you keep that priority...
This is not to say that, you know, I can't go to sleep until you go to sleep.
I'm going to sit here and stare and make sure you don't get upset about anything.
I'm not talking about anything like that.
But I think that if Colleen feels that she is number one and that all other considerations...
Go by the wayside.
Like, we always feel that if we make that commitment, then we're going to end up being manipulated.
And that's because of our families, right?
Like, if I just say, I am your slave to someone, then we feel like they're going to abuse their power, right?
Yes. But that's not the case with you guys, right?
Right. I mean, if you say to her, you're number one, you had a bad dream and a letter from Katie and you're really upset, so nothing else matters relative to that.
Then she's going to feel secure and actually you'll be able to postpone these conversations if something else is deemed by the both of you to be of higher priority, right?
Yeah, I wish I had done that now.
That sounds a lot more appealing.
Well, it's not because you didn't want to.
You just don't know it, right?
Right. It's not even an option on the table, is that right?
Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm sorry, I have to go to Atlanta and I have to go to the doctor.
I don't have time for this. Right.
Right. But the truth of the matter is that you could care less about Atlanta and the doctor relative to your relationship, right?
Right, absolutely.
Fundamentally, right?
Mm-hmm.
And if she feels that she is the complete number one priority for you, then she'll be quite comfortable letting you go to the doctor with the knowledge that you're going to come back and deal with this, or you'll call her on the way or talk to her.
whatever, right? Right.
And this is the doctor girlfriend thing, right?
Do I have that right?
That someone, one of you has to, I think it's.
That was from a TV show, actually.
I don't know if she meant it that way.
Oh no, it's there for a reason.
Everything's there for a reason, right?
But yeah, Colleen has the Dr.
Girlfriend tag. Right, so she says, from now on you to refer to me as Dr.
Girlfriend. And the response is, okay, Dr.
Girlfriend, right? But that's important.
I mean, I know it's funny, and it is funny, right?
But it's important as well because there's truth in there.
She definitely, I mean, yeah, she listens to me a lot.
I mean, she definitely listens to me more than I listen to her, I think.
I mean, I come to her with...
I don't know.
Maybe I'm wrong. She's looking at me weird.
I'm just totally confused.
About the Dr. Girlfriend connection?
Yes. Well, you want him to be your slave.
And I don't mean that in a negative way.
I mean that in a positive way.
Right. You want to be absolute number one in his thoughts, right?
Yeah. And I don't mean that you don't want him to be number one in your thoughts, but that level of devotion is still elusive, right?
Right. Right. I mean, I'll still ask Christina at the end of the day, you know, do you feel completely worshipped and adored?
Is there anything that could have made you feel more worshipped and adored today?
Right?
And she knows that there's just absolutely nothing that I wouldn't do for her.
And there's no other relationship or obligation That could stand against her needs.
Right. And that's good.
Isn't that what we want? Right.
Complete worship, enslavement and devotion.
I mean, it's a beautiful thing, right?
And when we allow other smaller obligations...
To get in the way of the supreme worship of our lover, they feel that, right?
They feel like they're somewhere in there in terms of priorities.
I mean, they're in the deck of cards somewhere.
They're moving up and down depending on what's going on.
But that's not secure fundamentally, right?
How are you feeling?
You look like you changed right there.
Like when he said that, you said you started, looked like you started feeling a certain way.
Like you did something with your hand and kind of like looked away.
Um.
I got, I don't know, I got kind of tense.
Um.
And I would say, if you don't mind me saying so, that this is really related to what you were talking about with your dad and this crazy bitch of a babysitter, right?
Right. Because what a child wants is to be madly worshipped and adored and for no other priorities to be higher than the child's happiness for the parent, right?
Yeah. So, if you'd have said, I don't like this babysitter, what should your parents have done?
I mean, asked why and never had me go back there.
Exactly. And they would have also said, how is it that we let someone dangerous into our helpless child's life?
What did we miss?
And they'd sit there for weeks or months trying to figure that out so that it never happened again, right?
Right. But what they said was, oh, run along, you're just going through X, Y, and Z, not that bad and, you know, whatever, right?
Right. And why is that?
Because it was going to take them a couple of hours or more to find a different babysitter, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So, in terms of your happiness versus a couple of hours of inconvenience on their side, what did they choose?
The convenience.
Right. So, you weren't even worth a couple of hours of inconvenience for them, right?
That they're willing to put you in an abusive and terrifying situation.
Because it's a hassle to pick up the phone and call and find another place, right?
Right. And that, of course, is a complete non-bonding between parent and child.
Right. I mean, if Christina was in an abusive work environment, and I could get her another job by making a couple of phone calls, and I didn't because it's like a hassle, I want to watch TV or something.
And then she kept going on being yelled at and abused and threatened at work because I just didn't want to make a phone call or two.
I mean, if I posted about that, how would you feel about this marriage?
It's not good.
Well, it's sadistic, right?
Right. Because I'm openly communicating to Christina that I prefer her to be abused and attacked rather than make a phone call or two.
Right. Now, that's of course a very different situation because Christina can leave me and she can find her own work and so on, right?
Right. So, it was very clearly communicated to you that your parents had no empathy for you, right?
Right. That your needs or requirements or demands or upsets or preferences meant less than nothing to them.
Right. And so...
For Rich to help you with this, which I'm sure he wants to...
He's got to just worship you.
Now... Be over-solicitous, right?
And what happens is then eventually, over time, your security in the relationship will increase and your problems with these feelings will decrease and things will reach more of an equilibrium, if that makes sense.
Right. But, I mean, Rich, if you understand that, which I'm sure you do, then you can see that placing priorities higher than Colleen's happiness...
Will, in the long run, cause the relationship to not succeed.
I mean, I can guarantee you that.
There's just too much history of her having her feelings ignored and her being low priority.
And I'm not saying she's low priority to you, and please understand that, right?
I mean, you're not responsible for what her father and her mother and this evil, crazy people did to her when she was a kid.
But it's still a reality that's part of the way that she relates, right?
Yeah, yeah. So anytime she's less than number one, She's nothing.
In her mind. I'm going to change that.
I'm going to make sure you know you're number one.
Thank you. Does that help?
Does that make sense? How are you feeling, Colleen?
I'm feeling better.
Like, it is a lot more clear now.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, and there's something incredibly precious and wonderful About being number one for someone.
Being unquestioned top of their priority list.
There's a great feeling of security in that.
Right.
I mean, you have someone in your life who will always be watching your back and always making sure that you're doing well and that you're not going to get eclipsed by little things.
And look, it happens.
I mean, we all like, you know, Christina can be upset.
I'm in the middle of a very exciting computer game right now.
so we all make those choices sometimes which we have to apologize for but I was going to win it's ridiculous and we all do that so that's okay we're not talking you have to follow the person around and stare at them 24-7 but it has to be a principle in the relationship that you can refer to And again, that doesn't mean that we all do it perfectly all the time, and it's impossible, right?
But if it is a standard in the relationship that you can refer to, then you can always come back to that, right, as the core principle.
And of course, whenever we don't make somebody number one, we are saying in a way that we don't trust them with that power, right?
Right. I mean, if I say to Christina, I will do absolutely everything that you want and anything that you want, and then she says, you know, I want you to become a dentist, then I'm kind of hosed, right?
Because I can't imagine a worse profession myself, but...
Right? But when I say that to her, I'm saying that I trust her.
And if I hold back, then I'm saying that, well, you know, I'll give you some power, but I don't know.
I don't know about the whole hog, right?
I don't know, right? And that, again, that communicates itself to each other.
Right. Consistently, right?
Yeah. Okay, well, that's all I have to say, because, I mean, you guys certainly have enough to chew on, but was this helpful?
Was this useful? Yeah. Yes, Steph.
Thank you. Oh, you're welcome.
You're welcome. Well, I hope that you have a chance to chat about it, and I hope that you have a great trip tonight if you end up going, Rich.
I hope it works out beautifully.
Well, thanks. Okay, man.
Talk to you guys later. All right.
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