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May 11, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:29:12

1063 Sunday Call In Show 11 May 2008

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	Thank you everybody so much for joining us this May 11th, 2008 Sunday, 4.07pm Eastern Standard Time.
	Just remember, if you're not currently speaking, if you could please mute your mic, that would be great.
	And we only have a tiny smidgen or two of business to get underway before we start.
	We had a fantastic month last month.
	The... We were up over 8% month over month, which is fantastic.
	It doubles us, I think, in six or seven months, so that is great.
	And I did a comparison because we recently passed the one-year anniversary of me going full-time, which is me moving from a semi-parasitical position to a full parasitical position, not just with Christina but with y'all.
	You may notice the lamprey marks on your neck.
	I haven't quite evolved to vampire yet.
	I'm still sort of in the sea slug category, but I certainly do appreciate the drops of blood.
	Thank you to those very much who have recently signed up for subscriptions, including the fine lady who did it twice.
	I don't think it was a typo.
	So she, of course, gets twice as many podcasts, and I think that's well worthwhile for her because she's willing to forego sleep to get the endless spittle lace.
	Baffle rants. So I compared.
	I couldn't find the stats for April.
	I think they're on another computer.
	But May, we had 80,000 podcast downloads.
	And we had over 280,000 this last month.
	So that's almost a 400% increase in a year.
	And I must say, that's pretty sweet.
	And we just had a large number of indicators.
	We had 10,000 unique IP visits in May of 2007.
	April of 2008, we had 40,000.
	Again, 400% increase.
	And I really, really do appreciate the lengths to which people are going to get the word out.
	I've had to cut back on advertising dollars because the stumble-upon stuff is, you know, the low-hanging fruit is gone.
	Everything that works on the internet doesn't work three minutes later.
	So if you have any good advertising ideas, feel free to...
	Send me an email and let me know what you think.
	I've done Bibvertiser.
	I've done Google Ads.
	I've done StumbleUpon. I've done Facebook.
	I've done MySpace. I've done just about everything that you can think of.
	But unfortunately, we're a little low.
	On the plus side, we're closing in on 2,000...
	Free books that have been downloaded in the past seven days.
	And that, I've got to tell you, I think is some pretty fine advertising.
	The most popular, of course, Everyday Anarchy, followed by UPB, followed by RTR, followed by Untruth.
	So thanks to those who are sending those around.
	But I think the 2,000 books in a week is fantastic.
	The print version of Everyday Anarchy will be out.
	It's actually done, and you can order them if you want, but I haven't got my copy yet, so it's order at your own risk.
	They're less than $10.
	I've also reduced the price Of the Free Domain Radio books considerably.
	Again, this is just with the idea that the cheaper they are, the wider they'll go, and that's a form of advertising.
	So I've lowered them by 30 or 40%.
	You can go to freedomainradio.com and check out the Lulu store.
	I don't think I've adjusted the prices on the page yet, but have a look at the Lulu store.
	They're very cheap. Remember, there is a Dutch version of Untruth and some other translations in the work, for which I thank the interested listeners enormously.
	And I think that's it for a new business.
	If you want to come to the barbecue, which is on the 7th, Of June, which is, what, two weeks?
	Three weeks. It's three weeks from now, minus a day.
	Then you are certainly more than welcome.
	We are going to have couches and mats for people to sleep on.
	There will, of course, be, by Greg's request, the Baby Isle mud pit in the backyard, where you can also sleep, should you feel that way inclined.
	You're welcome to come by.
	If you're up here Friday night, give us a shout.
	Maybe we've got to do some karaoke or something.
	And be around Saturday afternoon and maybe we'll do a little bit of things Sunday morning too.
	Go for a hike or something like that.
	So feel free to just drop us a line if you want to come by.
	We had a lot of fun.
	Sorry? Yeah.
	Please RSVP by the 27th.
	Otherwise you'll have to bring your own food.
	And let us know if you can make it.
	We had a great deal of fun last year and I hope that you will come up to join us again this year.
	The London Symposium is still on, just a minor whine and minor complaint, as usual, because it really wouldn't be an intro to a Sunday show without that.
	I have noticed that since we published the London Conference, donations have taken a bit of a dive, and that, of course, I can understand that because people are saying, well, you know, it's going to cost me a certain amount to go to the conference and so on, but just remember that.
	If you're going to spend $1,500 to go to the conference, I get only a small portion of that.
	So just again, I hate to be annoying and even remotely sound ungrateful, but just wanted to mention that if you're undecided about the conference and you want to spend a few bucks just to figure out if it would be something you'd like...
	Then may I sort of cordially invite you to come by to freedomainradio.com forward slash miami.html and pick up the audio version.
	Thanks again to Greg for fixing that up and stitching together a fabulous sounding recording from a bunch of different sources.
	But you can come and it's 25 bucks.
	You get almost six hours of high quality audio, including Christina's fabulous presentation on the origins and mechanisms of cognitive therapy.
	And me mostly showing how that simply doesn't apply to me.
	So you can come by and pick that up, have a listen to it and see if you like it, and that may be a good decision.
	I'll help you make the decision about whether to come to London, England for...
	Was it the 24th? Am I right about that?
	Like that. If it's not the 24th, just put it in the chat window and I'll mention it again.
	The suggested price for...
	London is a two-day symposium or gathering on the MECO system and its relationship to RTR and so on.
	We've got a pretty good agenda, I think, worked out.
	It's going to be $250 for two days, and if you can't afford that, it's pay what you can.
	That's the suggested price, but given the basic reality that we want to reach as many young people as possible who may not have that kind of money sitting around in their sock drawer, it's pay what you can.
	But obviously, if everybody pays a buck, there will be much woe.
	So, you know, be responsible that way, as I'm sure you will.
	So, thanks it for the news and the weather, and I am more than keen and eager to hear tales of questions and comments from the listeners.
	Over to you, Planet.
	Y'all just love to have me edit these things, don't you?
	Let's wait just long enough that Steph has to go in and edit it because, you know, he's got nothing but time.
	Well, just to break the ice then, I was wondering if you wouldn't be willing to go into a little bit about the difference between, say,
	forcing yourself to do something you don't want to do and Doing something that you're anxious about but want to do.
	You mean like... Sorry, go on.
	Say again? You mean like finishing a sentence?
	Sorry, go on. Yeah, that's a little bit of an effort for me, sure.
	But, yeah, no, I think I understand.
	I mean, we say follow our feelings, and so for you, what's going on right now, if I understand it rightly, is you're putting yourself out there in the Lovebug Planet world of reproduction, and you're going to see if you can rustle up some interest among the fairest acts.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	You feel anxious about doing that and you feel not so much, right?
	But at the same time, it's like, well, if I followed my feelings, then I would maybe be kind of inert.
	So how do I know the difference between following my feelings that are genuinely mine and to my advantage versus other kinds of feelings that if I followed them would maybe be detrimental to me?
	Is that right? Right, right, exactly.
	Exactly. And as a contrasting example, I went to look at an apartment share on Thursday, I think it was?
	Yeah, Thursday.
	and I remember feeling like really it was a great apartment good location and you know all the all the logistical stuff was perfect and I kept having to remind myself that so that I could get over the or get beyond or not get beyond
	but to stamp down the anxiety I was feeling about the guy who was showing me the apartment.
	And it wasn't initially either.
	I mean, I was pretty excited about taking a look at it, but then after a few things he said to me, the tension level in the room just went up like 100 degrees.
	I did everything I could to try to ignore it and focus on the size of the room and the fact that everything was self-contained and the fact that it was in a good location and it was a really, really, really cheap price.
	So just kind of giving you that example as a counterbalance to the dating situation which is sort of The opposite side of that coin for me, if that makes any sense.
	No, not yet.
	Maybe not. Well, because...
	Well, sorry.
	In the dating scenario, you want to date, and that is a genuine goal that you have, but you're afraid of it in some ways.
	Whereas, if I understand it rightly, then maybe with the roommate thing, you wanted a place, and you decided not to go for it because of the personality of the person who would be your roommate, right?
	Yeah, yeah. So in one, you're deciding to continue on with the dating thing, versus in another, you're following your feelings and backing out, right?
	Right, right. Right, exactly.
	Right, okay. Okay, well, I would say that the two are related insofar as one's going to lead to the other, right?
	So you're going to go on a date, and you're going to have to make a decision about the person you're going on a date with, right?
	That's true. So I think that the two are probably in your mind for a good reason.
	I would say that you have control over the variables at the moment in your approach to dating, right?
	Yeah, actually, pretty tight control.
	Well, I would expect nothing less.
	It wouldn't be you if, anyway.
	But on the other hand, if you move in with someone who turns out to be the crazy nutjob roommate guy, then you don't have control over those variables anymore, right?
	Right. Right, that's very true.
	So, I would say that where we have control over the variables, the anxiety is more likely to be an internal block, whereas when we don't have control over the variables, the anxiety or negative feelings about something is more likely to be coming in from the outside,
	right? While sitting in my comfortable armchair listening to classical music, then that's obviously something that is internally triggered, whereas if I'm tied to a tracks and the train is coming, that's a lot more likely to be external, right? That makes, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
	Now, as far as figuring out the desire versus the fear, and of course, these two feelings are one and the same.
	We only have desire because we have fear.
	So, in terms of dating, we all have a fear of rejection in terms of dating, except Christina, because it never happened to her.
	But we all have a fear of rejection in terms of dating, and that's why we have desire.
	This is the ambivalence of life.
	And so, to expect for there to be desire without fear...
	is irrational. There's always going to be fear associated with desire because whenever we want something, it's particularly when it itself is not under control.
	So the approach to dating is under your control.
	Whether dating is going to work for you is not, right?
	Not completely under your control for sure, right?
	No, that makes sense.
	Right, so you have a desire for a romantic relationship, but you have no direct control over the achievement of that desire, right?
	Because it involves other people.
	Well, it depends how many people you're dating at the same time and what it is exactly you're doing with them.
	Certainly, if you're going to get involved in something like Ménage de 1990, then for sure it's going to involve quite a number of other people.
	It certainly does involve at least one other person, hopefully, right?
	Right. That makes sense.
	And if you don't, if you aim at something that you want and you miss, you feel bad, right?
	Sure, sure.
	Absolutely. Right.
	So, whenever there is desire...
	There is fear, because if I want to trim my toenails, I don't feel either fear or desire, right?
	Perhaps a certain amount of repugnance and the need for a buzzsaw, but possibly even a machete or a chainsaw.
	But I don't feel it, because I have complete control over the variables, right?
	Right, right. But where I don't, like if I want to sell something to someone or if I want people to donate to FDR, that one in particular, right, I have a desire and then of course if people don't donate to FDR, that's very bad for me because I have to get a real job which is, you know, no good.
	I'm not even used to wearing pants anymore.
	So wherever I have a desire, I have a fear and the fear and the desire go hand in hand, right?
	So where I don't have fear, I don't have desire because otherwise there'd be no motive to do it, right?
	Right. I mean, I'm afraid of falling off a cliff, but I don't have any desire, so I don't feel that anxiety.
	Whereas if I woke up every day saying, by God, all I want to do is run off a cliff, I would suddenly feel fear about that, right?
	Oh, I see. Okay, so the anxiety occurs when...
	Which is distinct from the fear, and it only occurs when you actually pursue the desire.
	Yeah, I mean, desire is anxiety because anxiety is goal plus risk, right?
	When I have a goal of cutting my toenails, there's no risk, right?
	I mean, I'm not going to use throwing knives from across the room, right?
	Right, right, right. Or if I have a desire for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, I'm not going to feel a whole hell of a lot of fear about that either.
	No, I mean, unless you're Elvis eating on the toilet, then no.
	You're not going to feel that, right?
	So whenever you have a desire where there is a risk or uncertainty, you're going to feel anxiety.
	That is a rational processing of the reality that you want something but you can't guarantee getting a hold of it.
	And that if you don't get a hold of it, your desire will be thwarted and you will feel bad, right?
	Right. And we all have a fear of feeling bad, right?
	I mean, why wouldn't we, right?
	It would be kind of weird not to.
	Yeah, that makes good sense.
	So desire and fear go hand in hand.
	I mean, they are the same. They're the same emotion viewed from success and failure, right?
	Right. I see what you're saying.
	But that still leaves me with a bit of confusion around...
	So I have this desire to reduce my living expenses and find a cheaper place to live.
	One of those options is, you know, like an apartment share or a room share or something like that.
	And in the case of Thursday, I kind of felt it was sort of better to obey the anxiety.
	Sure. Whereas in the case of the dating, exactly the opposite's been true.
	Obeying the anxiety was not the right approach.
	Well, sure, but that's because with the dating thing, you don't have any other variables yet, other than your own actions, right?
	Right. So when you went to go and talk to this guy and think about renting a room from him, you actually had, you could accurately assess the variables because you'd met the guy, right?
	Yeah. With the dating thing, you haven't met a girl yet.
	Oh, okay, yeah, that makes sense now.
	Now I get it. So you don't have any evidence yet for which to have rational anxiety about the actual achievement of a goal because you're still preparing for it, right?
	Right, right, okay.
	Yeah, that makes a lot of sense now.
	Like, if I'm at the base camp of Everest, and I say, there's just no way I can make it up this mountain, that obviously is an internally generated state.
	If I'm halfway up...
	The mountain. And, you know, three of my toes have snapped off and I've had to eat my fingers and I'm out of oxygen, right?
	And there's a storm and there are, I don't know, frozen cows thudding into the mountainside.
	For me to say, I don't think I can make it to the top of the mountain is a rational evaluation of the odds of where I am, right?
	Right, right, right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
	I mean, after seeing the price and the description, I couldn't wait to go take a look at it.
	But then once I got there, that's when things kind of went south.
	So that's different from the other situation.
	Yeah, you actually have evidence rather than the possible thwarting of a desire for which you don't have any evidence yet, right?
	Right. So that would be my suggestion.
	That definitely clears that up, for sure.
	20 minutes?
	Can't be. Now, was there anything else you wanted to ask about this?
	Because we had Mr. K. Mr.
	K, I think from Franz Kafka's The Castle, wanted to call in and speak to us in Prussia?
	I don't know where he came from, but some Eastern European place.
	So was that okay? Can we move on to another question?
	That was fabulous, thanks.
	Sure, okay. Mr. K? Mr.
	K, he dead. Dara.
	Mr. KP, Corporal Punishment, are you there?
	Yes? Go ahead.
	Can you hear me? I can.
	Hello? Hello? Yes?
	Yes? Hello?
	Do you want to do this for a while? Can you hear me?
	Yeah, I can hear you. Okay.
	What's up? Oh, did you not have something that you wanted to talk about just now?
	Yes. So why are you being so difficult with me up front?
	This is not a show about me.
	It's a show about, I got something I really want to talk about.
	What is it? What's up? Yesterday I had a chat with my mother and IDFood.
	Go on. And it was kind of intense.
	I believe it. We talked a little bit about your mom in Miami, so I have some of the history, but of course that won't be the case for other people, so if you'd like to go into a little bit more of the backup or lead up, that would be, I'm sure, helpful.
	Sure. Well, my mom is kind of domineering.
	My dad's kind of the weak link.
	As it were. And I've been living at home since about two months ago.
	I moved out. And I've been visiting still like on weekends for dinners and such.
	And finally just got too much to deal with the faking I guess you'd say.
	Having to put on the plastic smile for the foo.
	And so I just decided, you know, we were going to hammer this out.
	So, yesterday...
	I'm sorry to interrupt. And just if you could just move your microphone just a little bit away from your mouth.
	I'm getting some breathing. Okay.
	But was this something that you came in with or was it something that seized you in the moment?
	Actually, it was Friday.
	Because it happened yesterday.
	It was Friday when I was actually listening to...
	I've been listening to your podcast from the very beginning.
	And I got to your series on prostitution.
	And... It had not been the first time that I had heard it, but it suddenly struck me that I had a lot of anger bound up against my mother that I think it was leaking out into women in general.
	And it was like, it took me, I think it was either the second or the third time that I had heard your prostitution series, and it finally hit home.
	Right, and just so people understand, I mean, this is not because your mom's a prostitute.
	This is because that was one of my fiercest series on FDR ever, right?
	I mean, that was like a battle to the death, right, so to speak.
	And I gave no quarter and I was relentlessly ferocious about that topic.
	And that probably had something to do with like hearing that expression of, you know, let's hope moral anger and intransigence probably triggered something within you.
	Would that be a fair approach?
	Yeah. I think it was more that I realized that it had taken me multiple times to break through to the level of empathy required to actually understand what you were saying.
	And at that moment, I knew that something was wrong.
	Can you tell me a little bit about that?
	I think that's interesting, but if you could tell me a bit more about that.
	Well, meaning that...
	You know, you're talking about exploiting the leftovers of child abuse, as you put it, and it's like I couldn't muster the level of empathy to actually feel that.
	From the other side, you know, from the perspective of the exploited woman, I guess?
	Does that make any sense? Yeah, no, I understand that.
	I understand that. And I understood finally that, you know, the amount of just, you know, the amount that I had drawn myself away from women in general, I guess, because of these really negative feelings I have towards my mother.
	Right. And with today being Mother's Day, I just knew that I couldn't go through another family party pretending to be nice and friendly and all those things.
	I couldn't do it.
	Right. And did that feeling of, I don't know, enoughness, like I've had enough, did that arise in you suddenly, or was that something that came slowly, sort of brick by brick?
	I mean, it was pretty brick by brick.
	That was the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.
	But it had been building slowly.
	And, you know, I think she might have realized, I'm sure she knew it too, that it was coming because when I was coming over to the house I was like not engaging with her I would go hang out in my sister's room or something watch TV something like that you know it was very I was very dis dis associated when I was there right and you know she's not stupid she can pick up on that right right okay Okay,
	so thank you. I appreciate that.
	And what happened then yesterday?
	Well, so I went to the house and...
	I told her that we needed to sit down and talk.
	I had sent her a text message the day earlier because she's been trying to get in touch with me all week because she was worried because I hadn't been calling her.
	She wanted to know that I was okay.
	I sent her a text message saying that I was alive and that I wanted to talk to her yesterday.
	I went over there and, you know, I mean, even when she went to give me the customary kiss of greeting, it was like, ill.
	If that makes any sense.
	Oh yeah, no, I totally understand.
	You know, and then we started talking and I started off with, you know, I have these really intense negative feelings every time I come over here, every time I see your name on the call on my phone, you know, and then it kind of went off from there.
	And, you know, I tried to stay on the RTR track, but, you know, we got off track in the middle.
	Right. But at least this time, I was able to use the feelings that I was having were like the backdrop.
	And even after we had gone off into other realms, by the end, I was able to use it to rein it back in.
	Yeah, as long as you stayed RTRing with yourself, that's the key thing, right?
	Yeah. And I think that was the difference.
	I was aware of what I was feeling.
	Right. Now, with these other realms, would it be something like arguing about the specifics of stuff that had happened?
	Some stuff like that.
	We got into morality and spanking.
	That one was really...
	That one was really revealing to me.
	I had asked her if, you know, it's okay if you spank a kid if he's doing something wrong.
	She said, well, maybe.
	You know, yeah. She basically said yes.
	So then I went, okay, so if you are in a store and the clerk rings up if your thing is wrong, then it's okay to slap her upside the head if, you know, If she's done it wrong?
	And then she's like, well, no, no, no, no.
	So then I asked her the same question again.
	Is it wrong to spank a kid? And then all of a sudden the fog went up.
	Well, you know, it depends on the situation.
	Maybe, you know, could be this, could be that, right?
	And she was a spanker, right?
	What? She was a spanker with you, right?
	Well, I mean, not like a beating spanker.
	You know, but like the occasional slap type deal.
	But on the buttocks, on the head, on the arm?
	I guess various places.
	I don't remember exactly, to be honest.
	And that was not your primary complaint with regards to your mother, though, right?
	No, no, but what got me was that then we kept talking about it and then she told me, well, what is it, well then, what about when you've spanked the dog?
	And that was when I kind of, ooh, you know?
	Because then she's saying, okay, so I should discipline my child the same way I discipline a dog.
	Right, right, right.
	Yeah. And of course, if you're old enough to remember being spanked, then you're old enough to process cause and effect and to be reasoned with, right?
	Right. Yeah, it was...
	And what did you get out of that aspect of the conversation?
	Because what was going on in your heart during that time?
	During that heart in my time?
	I mean, during my heart in that time?
	At that moment?
	Or just like during the conversation?
	Well, during the process, because when she was caught, right?
	When you brought up the clerk example, then she began to fog, right?
	Right. Which is highly instructive, right?
	Mm-hmm. No, it was eye-opening, even though it really shouldn't have been.
	If that makes any sense?
	No, I'm not sure if it shouldn't have been.
	Well, I mean, it's like...
	I think there was a part of me that knew what was going on, but, you know, was down there.
	You know, like, I... Sorry, was down there?
	I don't know what you mean. Meaning that I think that I knew what was going to happen.
	I knew what she was going to say.
	Oh, sure. But, you know, to hear it, you know, right there.
	And not only to hear it, but to...
	To hear her say these things and just not acknowledge at all that they were wrong or anything.
	That there was a problem with them.
	That they were just, oh, that was the way she did it.
	And that's it.
	Yeah. And then her main fog front, she was saying, well, why are you focusing just on all the negative things?
	What about all the positive things?
	And then I just kept telling her, I don't remember any positive things.
	Can you tell me what's happening for you just now?
	Because this is the third or fourth time that you've had a laugh after saying something horrible, right?
	Yeah. So when you say you don't remember any positive things, that's heartbreaking, right?
	It is. But for you, there's a nervous laugh right after.
	Is it because you feel that it is an outlandish or absurd thing to say?
	Or why is it that you would say something?
	I mean, it's not a criticism. It's just an observation.
	You know, I think that's part of it.
	Because, you know, there was one time during the conversation when she got all, you know, she got like really emotional and said, oh, but, you know, I just feel that we're so close.
	And the moment she said those words, I burst out a giggle.
	And, you know, she, you know, and then she's like, thanks, you know.
	But I just couldn't help myself.
	It was like I couldn't help myself.
	It was so, what was coming out of her mouth was so ridiculous.
	Well, no, I agree, and I can understand why that might happen.
	But when you say, I don't remember anything positive, that's a very heartbreaking thing, right?
	About your child, about your parenting, about your upbringing, that you don't remember anything positive?
	I mean, in the Shawshank Redemption, at least they get to drink beer on the roof, right?
	Once. Right?
	And if you don't even have that, it's just terrible, right?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	It is terrible. And, you know...
	And I understand that probably within your family, this would be considered a very hard thing to believe, right?
	Yeah. Definitely. Because you would get the, what, not one thing, are you telling me, the whole 20-year period, not one positive, nothing positive ever happened, ever, right?
	You'd get that, right? Mm-hmm.
	You know, and then the...
	You know, and then the whole, you know, well, you know, well, I mean, that's later, but when I had told her, when I finally got to the point where I told her, look, I need to take a break, you know, from everything. You know, I just need to not come over for a while, you know, no phone calls and no emails.
	And then that was when the, that was when the parting shot started.
	I'm sorry, can we just go back to just before then?
	Was that, and to me there would be nothing wrong with this, of course, but was that your intention going in?
	You know, I'm not sure if it was.
	I mean, I don't know if it had that, you know...
	I don't know if I had that explicit intention when I went in, but I think as things unfolded, I think it felt right to do it.
	Yeah, certainly the, ew, when you kissed me kind of thing is not a good sign.
	And can you think of, under any circumstances, in which case that eventual decision that you made, which we'll get to again, can you think of any circumstances or anything that your mother could have done that would have altered that decision to take a break?
	I'm not saying that she ever would, or I'm just curious about that.
	Right. I mean, maybe if she had admitted that, A part in anything.
	You know, if she had admitted any, I mean, any, I mean, even a smidgen of responsibility at all.
	You know, and I'm not saying she's, I'm not saying she's responsible for the choices that I make, but to even, but to not even suggest that she's responsible for the context those choices are made in.
	Period. And to just, you know, Push everything off and not even regard them as being, you know, as even being that important, you know, because you shouldn't focus on, you know, you shouldn't focus on the negative things, you know, you should try to look at the positive things.
	So what was, so her explanation as to why you had a bad childhood is just that you're sort of a dour individual, like you're just a downer?
	You just mysteriously focus on the negative.
	I'm trying to understand what was her explanation as to why you had a negative experience of her.
	Well, I don't think she really had one.
	Oh, I bet you did.
	So when you said, I don't remember anything positive, what was her response to that?
	Well, she was like perplexed, I think.
	Yeah.
	Like, how on earth could you get the impression that there was nothing positive since there was so much that was positive, right?
	Right. And did she admit to anything that was negative?
	She did. And what was that?
	You know, and she said that she's not perfect.
	Well, but what did she admit to that was negative?
	Well, I mean, she's admitted to...
	She's admitted to making mistakes, you know?
	Such as? Such as?
	Because this statement, well, nobody's perfect and so on, I mean, that doesn't really mean anything.
	I'm not perfect. Well, of course.
	I mean, that's... Nobody's perfect, right?
	So what specifically, though, did she say, I did you wrong with this?
	You know what's weird thinking about it now?
	I don't really remember.
	Does that mean you partially remember, or you just remember her speaking in Swiss at some point?
	Well, I think she's spoken in Swiss the whole time.
	I think you're probably right, but it's just important to go back and look at the bodies on the battlefield, right?
	Because that's sort of what I'm trying to do is a post-mortem a little bit so that you get some clarity because you kind of had to eat a shotgun full of fog for a couple of hours, right?
	Yeah, because what I have a feeling that she was doing was that I would say that she did something that I would catch her like that...
	Or, for instance, when I told her, when I asked her, you know, well, you know, all the things that you think are right, you feel.
	And so you just feel things and then you impose that on your children.
	You know, you feel something's right and then you say, okay, you should do this.
	But even then, I mean, I don't even know if she thought that was wrong or not.
	Well, but the question is, right, and this is the untruth question, right, from the book, which is, if my mom had said that to me, I would have said, okay, but when I was a kid, you didn't say, do this because I feel it.
	You said, do it because I'm right.
	And I, yeah.
	And now you're saying, well, you do it because you feel, you tell your children to do it because you feel it.
	It's like, well, why didn't you just say, do X because mommy feels that you should?
	Mm-hmm. But you said, do X because it's objectively right.
	And now, when I question you on the ethics, you say, well, it's all subjective and based on feeling, but that's not how you presented it to me as a child.
	Is that fair? No.
	No, what I mean is, is it fair to say that to her?
	Is that what she actually did?
	Would it be fair to say that to her?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	I mean, when you were a kid, she didn't say, do X because mommy feels that it's important for some reason that mommy can't explain.
	Right. Because you'd be like, why is it that I have to follow your feelings, right?
	Mm-hmm. But she said it's moral, right, or good, or right, or proper, or something, right?
	Mm-hmm. Sorry, I'm not getting the sense that you really agree with me and I don't want to put words in your mouth if that's not what happened.
	No, I do agree with you.
	I'm just thinking about how when I was there, I'm not very good at thinking on my feet.
	Nobody is in these situations.
	Sorry, I wouldn't at all judge yourself for your ability to think on your feet during a defu conversation because everybody's retarded in that situation.
	I was, everybody else is.
	And I'm sorry, I'm just getting a lot of background noise.
	I don't know if you're moving around or if somebody else is...
	Anyway, sorry, go on. Okay.
	Yeah, so, you know, it's like I come up with all the good arguments like two hours after.
	No, we all do. This is not specific to you.
	And again, don't put yourself according to this.
	You know, it's like saying, I pulled out my back when I had to lift up that car, so I must be really weak, right?
	Mm-hmm. Right.
	Okay, so at some point you realized that you simply weren't going to get anywhere in terms of communication, right?
	Yeah, and well, the other telling thing that happened was, you know, my father had been in the back working on the car, the family car, and he came in.
	Sorry, can you just go back for a second?
	Was there a reason why you didn't invite your father in for this conversation?
	I'm not saying you should have. I'm just curious why.
	Right. Because I don't think that...
	Well, because most of the issues that I have are focused on my mom.
	Oh, that's not true.
	Really? No, that's not true.
	Remember, I always talk about the one parent who gets away, right?
	Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.
	Right. Your parents are a system, right?
	Yeah. One cannot act in isolation to the other.
	Right. Well, that was kind of what I was getting to because then when he came in and he was getting ready to go to the junkyard to pick up some parts and I guess he started hearing what we were talking about.
	And I was talking – I guess we were talking about closeness or how much she knows me and he walks by with his little tool thing and he kind of says – and he just says towards us, you know, that lady right there probably knows you more than anyone else on this planet.
	And then after that, my mom went – What?
	Dear God, let's hope not.
	And then right after that, my mom went, oh, oh, oh, oh, no, I don't, oh, oh, oh, oh, I don't know him at all.
	Sarcastically, right? Yeah.
	Yeah. Yeah, very sarcastically.
	So there was the, you know...
	Okay, so what's the other reason, what's the real reason that you didn't ask your dad in for this conversation?
	Probably because I didn't want to get tag-teamed.
	Okay. What's not probable about that?
	Hmm? You said probably, right?
	So that means that there's a chance...
	Well, no. Yeah. Right? Yeah, there's no probable.
	That would have been...
	Guaranteed. It would have been, like, you know...
	Yeah, it would have been a tag team massacre, pretty much.
	Yeah, for sure. It would have been that much harder.
	And there's also a reason why your mother didn't pause the conversation and invite your dad in, right?
	Right.
	And why didn't she do that?
	Because she wanted to take care of me herself.
	Right.
	No. Because she didn't take care of you.
	What do you mean?
	Well, it's a really tough question, so I'm going to not...
	Beat around the bush, and I'm going to tell you what I think, and you can tell me if it makes any sense.
	The reason that your mother did not invite your father in for this conversation, and the reason that you didn't invite him in, is because you wanted to retain the illusion of a good parent.
	Because if you defoo from your mom, then you're still going to be open to sentimental appeals from your dad, right?
	Right. So if he stays out of the room, then he can be the good cop later, right?
	Right. But if he comes into the room and he's revealed as part of the system that ignored and exploited you, then he can't retain the halo of the good cop for later, right?
	Right. Does that make sense?
	That makes a lot of sense.
	That doesn't quite have the kapow of truth for you though, right?
	Not as much, no. And there could be some other reason, but it would seem to me a highly unusual thing for a defu conversation to be occurring and for one parent to be in the other room, right?
	Mm-hmm. And I think that the tag team thing is important, right?
	Because you said to me, the reason that I didn't ask my dad in is my problems are only really with my mom, right?
	Mm-hmm. Now, whenever I get mm-hmms, I always get concerned, right?
	You may have heard me talk about this before, right?
	Yeah. Because it means that people are annoyed at me, and that's fine.
	I don't mind that they're annoyed at me, but we need to deal with that, right?
	How do you feel when I start bringing up your dad?
	Yeah. I don't know.
	I guess I... There's no I guess.
	Well, you can guess, right?
	We don't have to be certain. Because I'm bringing your dad into the room in this conversation.
	Right. And you don't particularly like it, I think.
	No. No.
	No, there's definitely something I don't like about this.
	Right. No.
	Well, I guess I feel that he's still kind of a victim.
	Right. If that makes any sense?
	Oh, for sure. For sure, right?
	Because, you know, he's not the, you know, like I said, he's sort of the weak half.
	Well, that's an assumption.
	That's a story. We don't know that for sure, right?
	True. True. But, you know, for...
	So give me the mythology about your dad, right, so I can start you off.
	Like, you know, he married this woman who turned out to be dominating a dictatorial.
	He just had to do his best to try and keep the peace.
	Like, give me the story about your dad.
	Hmm. I mean, well, let's see.
	He met her at a bar.
	And he doesn't frequent bars.
	It was like an accidental thing.
	His car broke down. And he just happened to stop in at this bar and met my mom.
	And as they got it on, as they started to develop their relationship, she went to Spain and he stayed at her house in Miami because my mother's Cuban and her family had a house.
	Sorry, she went to Spain, is that right?
	Yeah. Okay, and he stayed at her house.
	And he kind of just stayed there the whole time.
	Would come like every day, you know, do maintenance on the cars, have dinner, you know, like waiting for her.
	Yeah. Alright.
	And then eventually they got married.
	I'm sorry, and I'm going to just speed you fast.
	I'm not looking for the biographical details, I'm looking for the mythology.
	The mythology. Yeah, and I'm sorry, I wasn't clear.
	When I talk about the story of your dad, what I mean is...
	what is his story about being a victim like if you were to say dad why didn't you ever stand up for me what would he say yeah What would he say?
	He might say something like, "Well, it's your mom.
	You should listen to your mom. Something like that, maybe.
	Okay, because you told me that he's a victim, right?
	And you don't have any big problems with him.
	Yeah. So how do you know that he's a victim?
	And I'm just saying put yourself in his shoes and give me the story about how helpless he was when you were growing up and how helpless he is to interfere or to manage your mom.
	Well, he works a lot. Okay, so I'm a victim because I work a lot.
	lot that's good what else what are the excuses um hmm my this is hard Sure. It'll be very easy once you get them, but it's hard because you're getting them consciously, right?
	Yeah, what are the excuses?
	Yeah, why didn't you stand up for me when I was a kid and my mom wasn't treating me well?
	Why don't you step in and make it right?
	Well, I worked a lot and I worked a lot.
	Your mom's a very strong-willed woman.
	Yep. She's better at that child raising stuff.
	So the kids are her responsibility?
	I think to a certain extent.
	Well, no, that's what he would say, right?
	Yeah. Alright, so I work a lot.
	Your mom is strong-willed. She's better at that child raising stuff.
	What else? What else?
	How did his son end up having a crappy childhood when he's the father?
	Did he not notice?
	Did he not care? Did he not believe he could do anything about it?
	Did he not want to piss off your mom?
	What was the reasons that he would give?
	I don't know if he really would have noticed if I had a crappy childhood.
	Okay. Why wouldn't he notice that you'd had a crappy childhood?
	Well, you know, because we didn't really talk that much.
	He's kind of the silent type.
	But that's not the issue, right?
	The issue is not whether he talked, the issue is why didn't he notice?
	Right. Okay, do you think that he noticed?
	Do you think that he noticed that you weren't having fun as a kid?
	No.
	Well, no.
	Yeah, I think he did. Okay, so we've established that he's not in a coma, right?
	He's not functionally catatonic because you were having a bad childhood that you can remember nothing positive from, right?
	Right. And your father happened to notice that you'd had a completely non-positive childhood, right?
	Yeah. So he noticed.
	And I think he would probably say also that he had a hard time understanding me because I wasn't like him.
	Okay. Let's do this.
	Let's roleplay, right? So you play your dad and I'll play you, right?
	Okay. Because this is tough for you, right?
	Yeah, it is. Okay.
	So, Dad, you say that you had a tough time understanding me, right?
	Yes.
	So can you tell me what efforts you made to try to understand me?
	Well, you know, I tried to do things with you.
	I tried to, you know...
	We built that wooden go-kart together, and we tried the baseball thing, but that was a total failure.
	But that's doing stuff together.
	That's not you trying to understand me, right?
	Right. So, I mean, the problem wasn't I didn't know how you would build a doghouse, right?
	The problem was I don't understand you as a child, right?
	So building a doghouse together doesn't solve the problem of you not understanding me, right?
	Yeah.
	So what efforts did you make or what efforts did you take to try and deal with the problem that you didn't understand me?
	Hmm.
	You know what?
	I don't know. I mean, I tried to do things that I thought would be fun.
	I even tried playing video games with you for a little bit.
	But these are things that you thought would be fun, right?
	Yeah. But that's not solving the problem of that you don't understand me, right?
	Mm-hmm. Right.
	So, you understood, or you felt that you didn't understand me, and you felt that I didn't have a happy childhood, or I mean, did you think that I had a happy childhood?
	Did I seem contented, and did I laugh spontaneously, and was I delighted to come home, and was I having a happy childhood in your opinion?
	Well, no. Not really.
	Okay, you say not really, so tell me what part you felt I was having fun with.
	I mean, I don't know, you seemed like you were, you know, you seemed okay when you were at parties and things like that, but...
	But I don't really, I don't know how happy you were.
	Well, you just said that you didn't think I was happy, so which is it?
	That you didn't know whether I was happy or not, or that you knew that I was unhappy?
	I didn't know you were happy or whether you're not happy.
	Because you said you knew that I was unhappy, right?
	Okay, so let's go with the fact that you knew I was not having a happy childhood, right?
	What did you do about that?
	That's a problem, right? You obviously would prefer that I had a happy childhood, right?
	And I would have preferred to have a happy childhood.
	So you chose to bring a child into this world with your wife, and this child was not having a happy childhood.
	And you recognized that as a problem even at the time.
	And what did you... I'm open.
	Maybe you did something and I've completely missed it, and this will turn this whole thing around, and I will recognize that I'm being unjust.
	I'm perfectly happy to be completely corrected on this.
	I'm wide open to being convinced otherwise.
	So tell me what you did to solve this significant problem that your child was not having a happy childhood.
	I don't think I did anything.
	All right.
	Alright, so you don't think you did anything.
	Can you tell me what you think you did?
	Because this is kind of like a fog, right?
	I don't know what that answer means, right?
	I mean, I tried to do things that I thought would be happy.
	Well, but did they work, right?
	Like, if I say I want to build a wall, so I put a CD on and listen to music, and then I found that the wall magically didn't get built, I would say that I did the wrong thing and maybe I should try something else, right?
	Mm-hmm. So, what did you try?
	And again, I'm totally open to being corrected on this.
	You know, make the case.
	I would be overjoyed to be proved wrong.
	So what did you do to solve the problem that I was not having a happy childhood?
	I don't know.
	What do you mean you don't know?
	I'm not sure what that means. Can you remember one thing that you did to solve the problem of me having an unhappy childhood?
	No. So what that means is, and again, we can correct or reverse this at any time, but what this means is that you knew I was having a happy childhood and you didn't do anything to change that.
	Again, I'm just trying to understand what you mean when you're saying all this.
	No, that makes sense.
	Okay, so there's really only one of two possibilities here that can be occurring.
	If you knew I was having an unhappy childhood and you didn't do anything to help or to change that, so one of two things is occurring.
	Either you don't care about me at all, Right?
	Which I don't think is true, but it's a possibility, right?
	Or you cared about me, but something was blocking you from having me have a happier childhood or taking the steps that would have helped me to have a happier childhood.
	So I would say that it's probably not true that you don't care about me at all, right?
	That you're completely indifferent as to whether I had a happy childhood or not, right?
	No. I mean, that would be crazy, right?
	You'd be a monster, right?
	Mm-hmm. And you also wouldn't be in this conversation, right?
	Right. I'd be like, too bad.
	Sucks to be you. Get lost. The game's on, right?
	Yeah. So what that means is that you knew I was having an unhappy childhood.
	You would very much have wanted me to have a happier childhood, but something was in the way, right?
	Right. What was in the way?
	What stopped you from acting?
	What stopped me from acting?
	Okay, if this is too tough, Perhaps you can answer another question.
	We can come back to this. In your opinion, why was I having an unhappy childhood?
	Why were you having an unhappy childhood?
	Okay, if this is too tough, we can take another approach it is.
	Do you think that I had an unhappy childhood because I'm a naturally or inevitably sour, negative, and unhappy person?
	In other words, do you think that I'm incapable of being happy and that's why I was not happy?
	No. Okay, I agree with you, I hope.
	So, I am capable of being happy, but something is preventing me from being happy.
	Now, was it that I was continually sick?
	No. Right?
	No. So it must have been something within my environment that was causing me to have an unhappy childhood.
	And what was that thing? And it can't have been a thing.
	It had to be a person, right?
	Yeah. So who was it who was causing me to have an unhappy childhood?
	Well, it was me and your mother.
	Alright. But you noticed that I was not having a happy childhood, so the responsibility then would fall upon you as the person who noticed that the building was on fire to call the fire department, right?
	The person who doesn't know that the building is on fire doesn't have a responsibility to call the fire department, right?
	Right. So you noticed, and you didn't call the fire department, and why did you not do that?
	Why did you not act To give me a happy childhood.
	when you knew that it was mom who was preventing me from having a happy childhood?
	Because I...
	Because, you know...
	I love her.
	You know, and I... You know, and she had such a hard time because of your brother.
	You know, all the special care we had to give him.
	What could I do? Okay, so you felt that to act to give me a happier childhood would have meant opposing something that mom was doing, is that right?
	Yeah. And what would that have looked like?
	Like, what was mom doing that was causing me to have an unhappy childhood?
	Well, it was like she was...
	It's like she was squeezing you into a box.
	Go on, how so? You know, this is how it's going to be around here, and you have to fit a certain way.
	So kind of rigid and controlling, is that right?
	Yes. And you had some idea that this was causing me to be unhappy, right?
	Yes. And what would have happened if you'd have said to your wife, you kind of need to loosen up on Kevin a bit here, right?
	This is not good for him. He's not happy.
	What would have happened? She would have rejected me.
	What does that mean?
	She would have divorced you?
	Maybe.
	Okay, well, what does rejected you mean then?
	I don't know. She would have...
	She would have...
	You know, withheld her love?
	What does that mean?
	You wouldn't have gotten any? Like, help me, this is all too abstract.
	I don't know what would have happened if you'd have said, loosen up on Kevin.
	She would have gotten angry at me.
	What would have happened? She would have gotten angry at me.
	Okay, she would have gotten angry at you, and so what?
	Are you not allowed to have an opinion when your son is unhappy?
	happy?
	Are you not allowed to fight for your children's happiness?
	I'm allowed to have an opinion.
	Oh, Okay, so you had an opinion about what mom was doing to me that was giving me such an unhappy childhood, and you didn't bring it up with her because you were afraid that she was going to attack you, right?
	Mm-hmm. Yeah.
	And do you think that was a good decision?
	No. Why not?
	Well, I mean...
	Look at what happened.
	What happened? You're all unhappy.
	Well, but we were unhappy then and you were fine with it, so what's different?
	That you're going away.
	Because I'm not seeing mom and you for a while?
	Yeah.
	Mm-hmm. And what outcome did you expect to happen when you continually threw me to the dogs because you didn't want to get your wife mad at you?
	Seriously, I mean, just man to man, what did you think the outcome was going to be?
	Did you think that I was going to respect you and look up to you, venerate you as a courageous and heroic father?
	I thought you'd just take it.
	Like you did? Yeah.
	And are you proud and happy that you just took it and sacrificed your children's happiness for the sake of your own immediate comfort?
	No. So do you want me to live with the same kind of shame that you've lived with?
	Is that what you want from me?
	Do you want me to go down the same path of cowardliness and throwing children under the bus to placate an angry wife?
	Is that what you want from me for my future?
	Is that what you want from me for my marriage and how I'm going to deal with my children?
	No. Because I bet you this is the biggest shame that you have, and I bet you you would give your right hand, if not both hands, to go back and act differently in the past, right?
	Because every single time you made that decision and you said, you know what?
	I'm too scared of my wife to help my son.
	But if you're too scared of your wife, how am I supposed to deal with her as a kid?
	And what kind of template did you give to me about how a man deals with a woman, how a man relates to a woman, how a man interacts with a woman, how a man stands his ground?
	with a woman.
	When you basically said you have children and then you sacrifice those children's happiness to your wife's bitchiness because you're too much of a coward to open your mouth.
	What kind of impression do you think that gave me of the role of a man in a relationship?
	You just go hide in the garage and tinker around with bullshit because you're afraid to say boo to a woman that you chose to marry.
	And then you say, well, you know, now everyone's unhappy.
	No, everyone was always unhappy.
	Right? Right.
	And you still won't stand up to her even now, right?
	This is the part that I really, really can't forgive.
	So I'm talking with mom about problems I had, and I say to mom, I don't feel that you know me, and what do you say when you walk through the room?
	She knows you better than anyone.
	Right. Do you see how you're still fucking me over?
	Do you see how you will stuff me into the jaws of your wife so she won't even nip you?
	Do you see now, decades after, years after I was a kid, You're still doing exactly the same goddamn thing that you did when I was a child.
	Which is fucking me over to appease your wife.
	siding with her against your own son.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And you get that you're not really that sorry.
	Because you just did it again yesterday, right?
	And you will continue.
	I mean, just man to man.
	Let's be straight with each other.
	You will continue this, right?
	What are you going to do? Get divorced when you're 60?
	Right. I mean, you've made your bed, right?
	This is the life that you've chosen.
	These decisions have been embedded in you for 20 plus years, right?
	You're not going to stand up to mom for my sake or for your sake anymore.
	It's not going to start now.
	No. I mean, let's just be honest, right?
	Mm-hmm. So, it's clear, or at least it's certainly clear to me, maybe it's clear to you or maybe it's not.
	It's clear that I have nothing to look forward to from you but additional betrayal, right?
	Mm-hmm. I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, right?
	No, you're absolutely right.
	So, you're going to hold me down while mom kicks me, right?
	As you always have.
	Yeah.
	And look, I mean, this is the choice you've made.
	This is the choice you've made for many, many years.
	You're getting old now, and it's not like you want to go and hit the dating circuit, right?
	And even if you did, it would take years and years of work and guilt and shame to work off this kind of problem, right?
	And you're just not up for it, right?
	No.
	Right?
	That's where you want to be. You want to be in the garage, tinkering around with bullshit while your family fucking collapses around you, right?
	And then you want to say, as you walk past your family disintegrating in the fucking kitchen, what you want to say is you want to put a little fucking jab in there, and then what you want to do is say, the most important thing for me is to go to the goddamn junkyard and pick up some shit for my car, right?
	Yeah. Fucking me everywhere you can, right?
	Yeah. Humiliating, belittling, siding with the wife, saying that although my family is disintegrating, I gotta get me to the junkyard, right?
	I'm less important than a piece of fucking junk to you!
	Right? You're right.
	I'm just calling a spade a spade, right?
	Yeah. That's what you clearly communicate.
	You knew exactly what was going on in the kitchen, right?
	Yeah. And you didn't come in, right?
	No. Because it's really important for you to work on the car, right?
	Mm-hmm. Really important.
	Yeah, and then when you come through and you realize that your son is saying to your wife, you don't know me at all, which is a pretty dire thing, right, to hear from a family member?
	If my wife comes in and says, "Steph, I'm going to leave you," and I say, "That's nice, honey, I just want to finish my video game," how would she feel?
	Say that one more time.
	So I'm sitting at my computer playing some stupid ass video game.
	My wife comes in and says, Steph, I'm going to leave you because you don't ever listen to me.
	And I say, that's nice, honey.
	I'm just going to finish my video game.
	Yeah. How's she going to feel?
	She's going to feel like crap.
	Yeah, and she's going to think, well, good fucking riddance.
	Yeah. Right?
	Right. Yeah.
	And that's what you did.
	You saying to me, it's more important for me to fix some old, broken, stupid-ass car, more important for me to go and pick up some crap from a junkyard than it is for me to lift one goddamn finger to save my family that's falling apart.
	Betrayal, humiliation, siding with the abuser, That's all you've got to offer me, right?
	When we look at the facts.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Alright, so I'm going to break the roleplay here, if that's okay, just so we can have a quick go over.
	Yeah, sure. Was that useful for you?
	Oh, immensely.
	Yeah. Yeah. Now, did you realize that the mm-hmms came back in when you were role-playing your dad, right?
	Yeah, they did.
	So now we know where they come from, right?
	Yeah. And that's what I mean when I say that the family is a system, right?
	Right. There's not one bad parent.
	There's never one bad parent.
	Right.
	Your mom couldn't have done what she did without your dad's explicit, implicit, complete and total enabling participation.
	Right? Yeah.
	No, absolutely.
	So when you said to me, well, my major problem is with my mom, not with my dad.
	I was full of shit.
	Yeah, well, no, you weren't full of shit.
	You were full of your dad. Yeah.
	Right, that's his story. You know your mother.
	That's his story. Yeah.
	But it's not a story that stands up to much scrutiny, right?
	No, it's not. No.
	No. I built a doghouse with you.
	Jesus Christ. I mean, that's avoidance.
	That's not intimacy. Yeah, it's...
	Yeah.
	I didn't think of it exactly that way, but yeah, it is.
	Right. And at this point in your life, there's nothing that your parents can do or say that is going to be A solution, right?
	And I, you know, when you were, I mean, I get that you were genuinely feeling stuff as your dad, but what I got, and you can tell me what you were feeling, but what I got was just self-pity.
	Yeah. Right?
	He wasn't sorry that he did shit to you, he was just sorry that you were making him feel bad.
	Kind of like a sniveling, do you know what I mean?
	Because when you were role-playing your dad, not once did your dad say, and how are you doing, and how are you feeling, and what's going on for you, right?
	Right. So it was not tears of empathy, right?
	or understanding.
	There's tears of self-pity.
	Hmm.
	Do you...
	Do you think that I was crying as my dad?
	Thank you.
	I think it was a combo.
	Yeah. Yeah. I think that you were getting a sense of the immense gulf between you, and of the disloyalty and lack of bonding, if that makes sense.
	Yeah. That's kind of what I thought, too.
	Because I noticed that, you know, as I was roleplaying him, I wasn't too defensive.
	No, you weren't. I mean, you were like, yeah, yeah, no, that was bad, right?
	You weren't that defensive. And I don't know if that's because he wouldn't really be defensive or maybe that's part of my story of him.
	I'm not sure. No, I don't think he would.
	I mean, I think the role plays that we do with family members are usually pretty accurate because we've got a lot of experience and exposure with them.
	I think that probably would go something like that.
	And what he would do is he would become passive and self-pitying and hope that that would be a strategy that would work, right?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	And I don't want there to be a good cop left in your parental mental rogues gallery, right?
	Right. There was my mom, the fogger, who did me a lot of harm, and then there was my dad, the distracted victim, who, you know...
	No, no, he victimized you as much as she did.
	She could not have victimized you without him.
	You're right. And it's like, hey, if he's too scared to call your mom on stuff, what the hell are you supposed to do?
	Yeah. It's like saying, it's like a dad saying to some guy coming down the street saying, I'm going to beat up the next person I see.
	It's like a dad taking a four-year-old and throwing him at the bully.
	Saying, shit, I don't want to get beaten up.
	You take it. And then it's walking on past.
	Yeah. Quickly. And then saying nothing happened, right?
	We would look at a man like that and say this is about the vilest, scummiest father on the planet, right?
	I can't handle this bully.
	You do it, son.
	When you're four. Wow.
	I don't want to get beaten up.
	Here, hit my son.
	He's three.
	Damn.
	I'm scared of the bully.
	Let's give the bully children to beat up on.
	Well, even better.
	First, let's get the bully pregnant.
	Right, right. So, Porter for nine months.
	So that we can give her children to beat up on.
	Right. I'm scared of my wife, so I'm going to give her children and not protect them.
	My wife is a bully, and he knew this before he married her, let alone before he had children.
	My wife is terrifying to me.
	She is a bully, and I will never stand up to defend myself.
	So the best thing that I can do is bring helpless children into the mix, right?
	Yeah. And then he walks through the kitchen when his family is hanging in the balance.
	You know, all I can hope is that the pieces of junk that he picks up from the junkyard yesterday, that he picked up yesterday, I hope that they're going to be really great at holding his hand on his deathbed.
	I hope that he made the right choice and they turn out to be better and more positive and more supporting and helpful and loving children than the ones he ejected for the sake of that piece of trash yeah because it'll have to do well that's the choice he's making Yeah.
	Well, I'm going to, if it's all right with you, I'm going to stop here.
	And unless there's anything else that's got a yearning burning, but obviously you've got a mess load of stuff that we've talked about here that you might want to take time to maul.
	Yeah, I think that would be good.
	Okay. Well, thanks very much.
	I appreciate that for going into the roleplay.
	I know that wasn't easy, but I think it was very helpful for yourself and for other people.
	We don't deal that much with dads here, right?
	I mean, because a lot of the stuff that comes up is to do with moms, and I've really been on the list to deal with dads for a while, so I'm glad that we had a chance to do it.
	Yeah, that was very helpful, because that put things in a much different, better perspective, I think.
	Good, good. Okay, well, thank you, and keep us posted about how you're doing and how you're feeling.
	Okay, thanks, Steph.
	You're very welcome. And I guess we have time for a Uno question-o-rama, a little do-diddle-diddle-ding-dong.
	Olay for tang for tang, biscuit barrel.
	Has somebody else had a question or comment?
	No? Going once!
	Going twice! Ding, ding, ding!
	And so we come to the end of the Sunday show for...
	May the 11th, 2008.
	Thank you so much for the two callers.
	But it's quantity.
	It's quality, not quantity.
	Unlike the podcast series as a whole, which is quantity, not quality.
	But hopefully it's still to people's satisfaction.
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	And thanks again, particularly to Kevin.

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