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May 3, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:34:56
1053 Friendships - The Conference Call

How to tell the living from the dying from the dead...

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Alright, Colleen, it's all yours.
And if we're going to just...
If we could type the names of the people we meet in the chat window rather than using them, then maybe the conversation can be salvageable for a wider audience.
Just a possibility. Okay, I will try.
So... I, um...
I emailed this friend of mine recently telling her basically that I wasn't going to see her girlfriend anymore.
That I found it too stressful and unpleasant and just that I didn't like the way she treated people.
I didn't like the way that she treated my friend.
just that I just been noticing more tension, uh, since she arrived.
And so, um, so Laverne wrote me back and she said, basically like, can I ask basically like, can I ask what triggered this?
I just Could you tell me more about the way she treats me and the way she treats other people?
Which I thought, you know, I mean, that was a decent response.
She didn't blow up at me and, you know, she seemed curious.
But on the other hand, it was sort of like playing dumb.
Yeah. Because how could she not notice all of that stuff that was going on?
Sorry to interrupt, but it's sort of like the people who end up not working out on the board or whatever.
All you ever hear is like, well, what?
What? What did I do?
Yeah, exactly. Like, she only became curious when it's basically too late to, you know, it's only when I took this step that she became curious.
Yeah. Well, and of course, there's a lot packed into that, and I don't want to sort of derail you right at the beginning, but hey, that's what I do.
But there is a lot that is packed into that one statement, which is all, I've not noticed anything, I've not seen anything, and it really puts the onus on you, like it's your personal perception, because implicitly she's denying that there's anything wrong.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, there was a little bit of that that I was thinking about.
And just because I was a little uncertain about it, I talked to some people on the board about the whole thing and I talked to Charlotte who gave me some good advice.
She said, well, you know, if I was in your friend's position, I would rather you call me on the phone to discuss this.
And I was like, yeah, I know that's a good idea.
So I wrote Laverne back and I said, you know, I wrote this pretty extensive email.
I'm answering your questions, but I've been debating whether or not I should send it or if you'd rather that we have a phone conversation or I meet you somewhere.
But I understand you're in a difficult situation, so just whatever you prefer.
And she wrote me back just wondering what difficult situation is that.
And then that's the point that I started to feel really irritated.
Right, of course.
Right. I mean, my best friend and my girlfriend are completely at odds, but I have no idea what you mean by a difficult situation.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, that really seemed to me like a trap.
So I haven't responded since then, and I've just been sort of mulling it over.
And I've just noticed over the past few days that I have less and less of a desire to even respond at all.
Right. And I'm just kind of like at this fork in the road where I can either...
I know I only have two options, which is either I RTR this or I don't ever speak with her again.
And what makes you think that you're not RTRing with her at the moment?
Well, it's still not like your response made me feel this and I don't know why, like that sort of thing.
Well, no, but sorry, what I mean is with yourself.
Sorry, that was completely not clear on my side.
Sorry. I don't know.
I guess I kind of am because I'm not acting or jumping to conclusions.
I'm just sort of wondering about my feelings.
Right. You're like...
What you're doing is you're taking off obligations.
And with all due respect to Charlotte, to me, the question is not what you should do, but how do you feel?
So when you get this email back from Laverne saying, could you give me even one example, so to speak, of how this person has treated others in even a remotely negative way, you know, that kind of stuff.
Mm-hmm. I mean, doesn't that just look like a huge...
I shouldn't put words into your mouth.
When you got that back, how did you feel when you read it?
Um... I felt...
Well, I felt irritation and also just bewilderment.
And what was bewildering?
Well, just that. I mean, she would even portray it as something so...
Mysterious, especially after all of this drama has happened with FDR and her girlfriend.
And I haven't kept track of that drama.
Just about a week ago, this person seemed upset, and I said, you know, we can talk about it next week.
I was in a hotel working on the book, but I've never heard back, so I don't know what's going on with that.
So it can't really be that...
That she's not at all aware, right?
Right, exactly.
Right. Right.
Sorry, go ahead.
And also, I've been noticing that it's not only this interaction that's made me desire to interact with her less and less.
I've just noticed that Sort of like this inverse relationship with this and my other relationships getting better.
There's been really big improvements with me and Rich and I've been talking a lot more to other people on the board and it just seems like the more positive those relationships are, the more like this...
I'm just thinking like, what am I doing calling this a friendship?
Right, right. Okay, so you felt irritated, and we were actually just talking about that with the mother and son team today.
So you felt a kind of irritation, and can you tell me a little bit more about that irritation and what was going through your mind around that?
Well, it's kind of like, well, I mean, along with what you said about this sort of puts this all on me.
Like if we're both reasonable people here and she hasn't noticed anything, that kind of is portraying me as really unreasonable and too demanding and all of this stuff.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Right. Well, yeah, I mean, it's, and she's put in a, sorry, just before we get back to feelings, she's put in a tough position, or rather she's put herself in a tough position because she's let things slide, right?
So if you then say, well, you know, I don't want to be around X, Y, or Z person, either she has noticed it and she's just let it slide, in which case she's got a kind of hole to dig out of, right?
Mm-hmm. Because then she's got to say, yes, I have noticed that so-and-so doesn't treat people always the best, but what?
What does that mean? Then it's like, you're the one who has to bring it up, and she's behind, if that makes any sense.
Right. She's got to sort of play catch-up, and then she's got to realize that she's been trying to cover things up, and so on, right?
So that's really tough.
Uh-huh. Right. So she either admits, oh yeah, no, I've noticed that for a long time, right?
In which case, why did she bring this person into your life and this and that and the other, right?
Or she has to say she's never noticed it at all, which is...
Seems like a better solution in the short run, but you really would have respected her, I think, if she'd written you back and said, yes, I'm torn, I've noticed some problems, and I've been lax in addressing them, and I've been just kind of hunkered down, hoping it's all going to blow over, which I know is not particularly helpful.
You know, you would have respected her for that, right?
Yeah, definitely.
But this sort of blank denial, right?
Like, what?
That is, of course, somewhat irritating, of course.
Mm-hmm. But anyway, so sorry, go on.
Yeah, and I also felt a little bit trapped because it's...
I don't know.
I feel like if she's already sort of pretending as if she doesn't notice any of the stuff, which of course she does, then what is going to be the difference if I tell her?
Well, yeah, of course.
I mean, if she's already denying that there's any problem, what's going to happen if you sit down and talk with her face-to-face?
I mean, it's just probably going to be more denial and more explaining and more excuses.
Of course, yeah, absolutely.
And so it's going to be, I mean, the manipulation has already begun, right?
I think that's where your irritation comes from.
Right. Because the email is just not honest, in my estimation.
Yeah. And what she's doing is she's presenting you a kind of ice cliff to climb with your teeth, right?
Yeah. Yeah. I've not found, and you guys have heard me hack through this with dozens of people, I have not found that people become any less defensive when you talk to them than when you type to them.
Very rarely, right? It's not like it gets any better face-to-face than it does over email.
Now email is not a great medium for dealing with complicated emotional issues, but If people are defensive on the board and you hear me talk to those same people, nothing's turned around that I know of, of, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So if you could try and unpack the thoughts that preceded the irritation.
So you get this email which says, can you tell me what you've noticed that might be negative?
Or something like that.
What are the thoughts that happen in the ecosystem right when this thing comes in?
Well, you know, the part behind the irritation, like I've already explained some of that.
And, you know, also it's just like...
She's obviously, I mean, it's like sacrificing me, the person who, I mean, I think has been there for her a lot more than Shirley ever has.
And she's sacrificing me to her because she's not being honest.
She's not willing to be honest.
And she wants to sort of...
Which I kind of understand this whole relationship and the whole thing she's playing out with it, her whole Simon the Boxer with it.
I understand that she's trying to manage a lot of things through this relationship, but she's sacrificing me to that, so that's hurtful.
Oh, I certainly understand that.
Yeah, I certainly understand that.
And... But the other parts of me were sort of being like, you know, well, this is...
You know, it's less than ideal, but it's more than horrible of a response.
And, you know, she's actually...
Maybe she's actually curious, and she just wants me to sort of lay it out on the table so that, you know...
Even though she's been denying all this stuff to herself, like, if somebody she trusts were to tell her all this stuff, then, you know, maybe this would be a good step for her in figuring out this.
And that whole thing, like, I just, I kind of went into this, like, oh, maybe I can, maybe this is a request for me to help her through this or something like that.
Okay, now, and this is the part that I think is really worth talking about.
I mean, not that this earlier part wasn't, but this is the part I think that's really worth talking about.
Did anything occur between the irritation and this trip going on?
I think it was an anxiety that just followed the irritation.
So this was within a few minutes of you getting the email?
You didn't talk to anyone else or anything like that?
Right. I mean, within a few seconds.
Okay. So you have your irritation, right?
Mm-hmm. And your irritation comes up, and then you start the lecture, right?
Right. That's the part, I think, that's where the RTR stops, right?
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
Because then you're not saying, I wonder why I'm irritated.
You're like, I shouldn't be irritated, right?
Yeah, but with me, it's more of a, maybe I shouldn't, like, this whole...
Which is even more annoying, actually. Huh?
Well, that's even more annoying, right?
I'd rather be joking. Oh, yeah, I totally understand.
Right, and this is where we moralists lose our strength, right?
And God knows, I face this all the time with people and with this conversation, but I sort of have to look at that voice, right?
Because it eclipses your real experience, right?
Your real experience is irritation, right?
But rather than be curious about that, you kind of snap out of yourself to some sort of suborbital perspective of the whole world saying, well, you know, maybe there's this or maybe there's something else.
And all of that's just conjecture, right?
Right. It's not feeling-based.
Mm-hmm. And what happens to your irritation when that voice comes up?
We'll call her the church lady.
Um... It certainly is diminished temporarily, but then I do notice that later on, when I'm going back to thinking about it, that it's increased tenfold.
Sure. To some sort of petulance.
Right, right.
Okay, so where does this voice come from?
Where does this inner church lady come from?
Does it seem like a male or female voice?
I get female, but I don't want to be sexist.
I don't know.
I haven't really genderized it.
I'd say female. It seems that way to me, and that's why I came up with Church Lady, but it could be male, but that's not typically the male response.
The male response is typical, well, looking back to another time.
So, obviously, this is a cause and effect relationship within your mind that is a response to irritation, and it's a disarming of a defense, right?
Because when you get irritated, that's usually because your boundaries are being violated or you're being manipulated, right?
Right. And so when you get manipulated or when you're being manipulated, clearly the person who is manipulating you does not want you to feel irritated, right?
Right. That's the counterfeit detection machine myth that I won't even mention once more because I think everyone's head explodes.
But the person who's manipulating you, your irritation is their enemy, right?
Yeah. So in your family growing up, who did your irritation threaten?
My mother.
Right. And if you had expressed to your mother and said, Mom, I'm really irritated at the moment.
I don't know why. I don't know what's going on.
I'm really irritated at the moment.
Oh, I know exactly what would happen.
I bet you do. So what would happen?
She would just...
At first she would try the whole guilting me route and be like, you know...
Play the whole, like, oh, I'm just your loving mother who's just trying to do this for you, and just how could you say that I'm irritating?
And, you know, even though that's not what I said, that's how she would turn it and try to, like, draw sympathy out of me and be like, well, no.
So I start, like, well, no, you're not this, you're not that.
And that's not what I'm saying.
And then she would...
If I just kept with the RTR and being like, I'm not saying it's coming from you, but I'm feeling increasing irritation towards your reaction, then eventually she would just become enraged.
Right. Sorry, it sounds like you've got a good handle on it, so we probably don't need to roleplay it.
We could if you want, but for sure the rage is going to come, right?
Right. And then what happens is the parent says, you're just impossible, and they storm out of the room, or something like that, right?
Oh, she did have the throwing her hands up storm out of the room, but she also had the whole shrieky thing going on.
And this storm, right, this emotional storm with your mom, or this sadism, this could last for hours, days?
I don't mean the screaming, but after your mom would have this...
I mean, after my mom would do this kind of stuff, there would be a kind of...
I mean, there would be...
I don't speak about it. And also, she'd be like a Ming vase for a little while.
Like, just...
I mean, obviously, she shocked herself a little bit sometimes, but there was kind of...
She was just fragile.
And... Unsteady.
That was my experience, but what was your mom like after this rage came out?
I think she actually acted pretty guilty, but not explicitly a genuine apology.
Like, I'm sorry, and, you know, I'm going to get myself into therapy and tell me how you feel and all that.
Of course, like, not like that, but it was all about her guilt sort of thing.
And like, oh, I'm so sorry, like, for doing that.
You know, I feel like a bad mother.
And then because it's just and it would just start another manipulation again.
So then you have to comfort her after she screams at you.
Exactly. The cycle is then, you, Colleen, must now make me feel better after I've apologized, or guess what?
It all starts all over again, right?
Oh yeah, exactly.
Right, so you are bullied originally, and then your mom, quote, apologizes, and if you don't provide her what she wants, then you get the bullying again, right?
Mm-hmm. Right.
Right. It's like, I mean, just to a minor degree, it's like, I can't remember what the guy's name was, but this guy who was just trying to bait the whole board with, oh yeah, well what about this person who got banned?
And what about this person who got banned?
And what about this person who got banned?
And he just kept posting, and somebody else, oh yeah, I want to hear about that too, right?
Just trying to stir up old shit, right?
And, you know, to the...
For eternal credit, people just didn't respond.
And he didn't say, I mean, oh, then he said, oh, this silence speaks volumes and I've learned everything I need to know.
And, you know, this vaguely sinister kind of, you know, thing.
And, you know, that just never ends with people.
That seriously never ends with people.
Your mom is going to go to her grave exactly like that.
Mm-hmm. So that bit in RTR with the mother-daughter must have been at least somewhat familiar?
Oh, yeah. Definitely.
Right. Okay. Okay.
So here, irritation was something that you were not allowed to have.
Or if you had, you had to dismantle it, so to speak, right?
Because otherwise, all that would happen is you would spend every day getting screened at, right?
Yeah. Because what we get, when we fold, we get that they're not going to change.
I'm going to say that again, because I think that's important.
We don't have a parent that we know of, and I don't know what was going on with the conversation today beforehand, but we don't have a parent that we know of.
That has turned around, right?
Right. Because people are not trained to deal with reality.
They're trained to make up bullshit, to justify themselves, to lie, to manipulate.
I mean, this is how enslaved the world is, right?
And so you can't...
No one's going to change if they can make up some reason, right?
Why they're upset.
They won't change, right?
Mm-hmm. And your mom hasn't changed since you've known her.
My mom hasn't changed. Greg's mom hasn't changed.
Nate's mom hasn't changed. Charlotte's mom.
They don't change, right?
Right. And so given that we know we're just going to hit defense after defense after rage after rage after defense, and it's never going to get exhausted, right?
Right. Because there's no person there.
There's only an infection of mythology and storytelling and fantasy, right?
Yeah. So you did what you did.
You had to dismantle your irritation because your mother, sure as hell, was never going to dismantle hers, right?
Right. But the difference is that, and the reason I'm blathering on about this stuff is that you get that your mom, at least I think you get, that your mom's not going to change, right?
Oh, absolutely. Okay, okay.
But, with regards to Laverne, this story kicked in about change, right?
Yes, that's true.
And you, I mean, it's possible that you could be right.
I doubt it. Our first reaction is usually the right one, but I would say, I mean, this Laverne is still in her family, right?
It's still enmeshed in her family to some degree?
Yes, to some degree. Right.
So, when you say, I'm surprised that she chose negative or destructive or whatever, this may be too strong a characterization, but chose non-optimal people, let's say, compared to me, it's not the first time this has happened, right?
Right. That's true.
So, that's it for me and tell me what that means to you.
Well... By staying enmeshed with her family, she's still valuing them at the expense of, you know, even Shirley, I'd say, like, just, I mean, to everyone around her, because that always bleeds over, and she knows that now.
Like, she can't claim ignorance about it.
And she has your example, right?
Right. Of what happens when you detach.
We are creating an option in the world that people just never imagined, that you can defu and be far, far better off.
Yeah. This is not something we're going, we're flying completely in the face of total mythology.
I mean, we might as well be saying that smoke four packs a day to cure lung cancer.
Right. So, and this is one of the reasons why there's a lot of hostility kind of comes down on us as a group from time to time.
Because if we're right, then people have really got to be a lot more courageous, right?
There's a pretty bad movie with Alec Baldwin and...
The fava beans guy.
Anthony Hopkins. And they're being chased through the wilderness by this bear and this and that.
And they find out, figure out a way to kill it and so on.
And Anthony Hopkins says, there's no need to be that terrified because it's been done before.
What one man can do, another can do.
And that's really sort of fundamental, I think.
If we can do it, then it becomes a possibility which means people have to You know, there's a helicopter out of Saigon, so to speak.
Yeah. So, there's some part of you that thinks that you can affect this situation, right?
Yes. And I want to know, I want to know, damn it, tell me what the case is for that, what the evidence is for that, right?
Yeah. Well, the evidence that I was sort of saying I had was, you know, when I got into FDR and I started examining my own family, like, she sort of picked up on that.
And, you know, she has examined her family to some extent.
She's defued from her mom, and she has, like, been sort of working on the other members of her family.
And so I was like, okay, so she sort of was motivated by my example in that regard.
And now if I just say that, you know, hey, I'm gonna speak the truth about Shirley, and I'm not gonna see Shirley anymore, you know, maybe that would also lead to something similar.
Sorry, just that last bit went a bit fast for me.
Could you just give me that again?
The last part?
Just that last bit.
Right. If I don't...
If I speak the truth about Shirley and I refuse to see Shirley anymore, then maybe she will also be motivated by that example to examine her relationship more closely.
Okay, and why do you think that she doesn't do that?
Why she doesn't do it in the first place?
I'm sorry, go ahead. Why she doesn't do it in the first place?
Yeah, why doesn't she...
I mean, as you said, I wasn't aware that she'd do food from her mom, so she's totally separated from her mom?
Yes. Okay, but she's still...
There's other family members that she's enmeshed in, right?
Yeah. Okay, and the relationship with the girlfriend, which is...
Fairly reasonable to consider suboptimal, let's say, right?
Right. Okay, so...
Because it's not about the mom, and it's not about the defu, it's about...
Because those things...
Ah, okay, this is the important part.
Those things result from a commitment to values, right?
Right. Like, you have to say, if you want this to work, not you, but one has to say, if you want this liberty to work...
That I am going to have a principle called, you know, honesty and integrity and vulnerability and openness and, you know, all of the stuff that we talk about here.
And I'm going to work to try and raise my relationships to that standard, but I'm not going to sit here forever if people just don't tell me the truth, right?
That life is short and everything has a fuse, right?
And so I think, and I've been fooled by this a number of times, I'm not saying that you're fooled by it, but when people say, well, I've defooded because of X, Y, and Z, or I don't see my mom anymore or whatever.
Mm-hmm. And then it turns out that, you know, they, I don't know, have some drug-addicted boyfriend or something.
You know what I mean? Like, it's not a principle.
It's almost like an aesthetic or like, I don't like my mom, so I'm not going to deal with her anymore.
Does that make sense? Oh, yeah.
Totally. But it's not from first principles flowing outward because that's what gives you strength, right?
Mm-hmm. So there's not a commitment to the values, right?
Right. Because of the girlfriend and other family members and so on, right?
And the choices she's making with you.
Yeah. And as the girlfriend's been around, you haven't been able to talk about this with you and neither has Rich and so on, right?
Right. Right, there is...
I mean, there's definitely almost no real honesty going on whenever we're interacting.
It's just not allowed.
Okay, no real honesty?
I'll help you understand that extraordinarily Swiss-laden statement.
Okay, well, I'm sorry. There's some real honesty or there's, like, some actual honesty?
Yeah, what I mean is that we talk about other things, like, external to the relationship in an honest way, like, you know...
We used to talk about this or that goings on at FDR and that sort of thing, but there's no honesty as the real-time relationship kind of honesty where we can discuss how we are feeling in regards to that person.
Yeah, or the choices that they're making.
So, there's good gossip, and don't get me wrong, gossip is the mortar that is good for the bricks in a relationship, right?
I mean, there can be nothing better than gossip sometimes, and I think that there can be some positive things in that discussion.
But, I use the word gossip here to become somewhat loosely mindful of my former conversation with David Bradley.
Wow. I mean, we can discuss other people.
We can even criticize other people and learn from that as long as we're willing to sort of be open and revisit.
But there's a core thing here, which is the relationship that she has with her girlfriend and its effect on you.
And that's not something that you can talk about, right?
Right. Okay, so in a sense, there's chit-chat.
And then there's stuff that's really core.
And of course, because you can't talk about the negative things in her relationship, you're that less likely to be able to talk about the positive things in your relationship too, right?
Oh, absolutely.
Because it's just like...
There's either this stony silence around stuff like that, or it's like...
They sort of feel put down by it, I guess.
Or they appear like they're put down by it and they try to be like, just start talking about something that they've done.
You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do understand that.
So, in terms of externality, like, I'm trying to say there's no real honesty, and I'm trying to figure out where the honesty is, because the chit-chat, you know, I mean, if I ask someone whether it's raining outside, do you know what I mean?
Like, I'm trying to figure out where the honesty is, because you've got a comparison, right?
So, there's no real honesty, but maybe there's passion.
I want to know where the honesty is.
Yeah, I mean...
Beyond the chit-chat, that's not really honesty.
There's none. Okay, and let me go one step further, right?
Because I have an absence of honesty with about 6 billion people in the world.
It's dishonesty.
Well, I mean, I just want to sort of look this over so that we can look at it for what it is, right?
Because if there's a huge thing that's troubling you that you can't talk about, and you can't talk about the positive things in your relationship, and you can't talk about taking real values and applying them to your life, if you're stepping through this minefield of avoidance, I think that to say that the problem is there's not an excess of real honesty does not contain an excess of real honesty, if that makes sense.
Right. No, I get what you're saying.
That is not an accurate way to put it.
Because there's active dishonesty going on.
Right. And the reason that we want to figure this out, right, is we want to figure out the transition from irritation to maybe I should call.
Right. Right.
So the irritation is, man, I got snowed, right?
She's dumping it all on me, she's plain dumb, she's manipulating, she's this, she's that, she's the other, right?
And this is not the first time that you've experienced this, right?
Right. So if it's then, well, there's not an excess of real honesty in this relationship, then clearly there's something to save, right?
Yes. Right?
I mean, if a guy's toe gets gangrene, we don't shoot him, right?
Right.
Because there's a lot of healthy tissue to save, right?
Mm-hmm.
So I think the first thing is to try and figure out where the relationship actually is, so to speak.
Just empirically, not in terms of where we'd like to be or if I'd done the difference, but where it currently is, your relationship with Laverne, right?
Right. I mean, at this point, honestly, I don't think it's anywhere.
Oh, it's somewhere. See, I don't have any kind of anywhere relationship with about six billion people on the planet, right?
I have no relationship with about six people.
So this is different, right?
Than that. Right.
It's negative. Yeah. I mean, there's a part of me that wants to hold on to it, and I don't think it's a...
It's not a part of me that's that interested in the truth.
Well, I'm perfectly happy to hear the case.
And this is just practice for you, right?
To make the case with yourself.
I mean, we have nothing to fear from the parts of us that wish to tell us the truth, right?
So, I mean, if you feel that, you know, that there's a good case or there could be a case to be made with yourself, I mean, you could make the case.
You don't act on it, right? We can make the case, right?
Like, what is there to save in the relationship?
What is the good stuff?
Where could the relationship go?
And what could be the great stuff that's in it?
And so on. Well, the things that I was sort of thinking about when I even wrote this email was, you know, there were times before Shirley showed up that I enjoyed being with this person,
and it was, you know, we had a shared sense of humor, and we could discuss, like, Some personal issues, but we more had a connection with philosophy, and we would talk about...
Our whole friendship started when I really started getting into philosophy, and we talked about that kind of thing all the time.
She was the only friend that I had at the time that really shared my interest in that and didn't minimize it or...
Or, you know, mock it or anything like that.
And she was supportive of, you know, my defu and all of this stuff.
So those were positive things about it.
And she used to definitely be more generous as a person.
And I'm just thinking, like, you know, if she...
Just the thoughts in my head are like, oh, she gets out of this relationship, then it's going to improve again.
Because she was better as you see it before this.
Right. All right.
So if she were out of this relationship, there's a possibility that this could turn around.
And how long have you guys been friends?
For four years.
And for how long have you found this avoidance thing to be part of the relationship?
All of it.
Thank you.
Okay. Wasn't expecting that.
Sorry. No, no, that's good.
That sounded like a spontaneous ecosystem ringing out kind of answer.
So, go on.
Yeah, I mean, just when you asked that question, like a million different things popped into my head about, you know, if it wasn't this relationship with Shirley, it's something else that we're avoiding.
there have always been certain things that we just don't discuss.
Like there was a period during which Because she had obviously bad relationships before this one, and I couldn't talk about those, really honestly.
Hang on, hang on. You couldn't talk about those really honestly, so you could talk about them?
I couldn't talk about them honestly at all.
Which means what?
Which means not discussing them.
Which means you had to avoid them, right?
Which means you had to self-censor, right?
Right. Which means that you had to disvalue honesty.
You had to act in a false manner, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Oh, she's mm-hmm-ing me.
Fine. Fine.
I'll give you this one, but I'll get you later.
Spit in your cookies. No, that is true.
This is not a criticism, again.
It's just an observation, right?
Because if there are people that I just can't talk about stuff with...
Then I have to self-censor, I have to avoid the truth for the sake of their prejudice, right?
Right. Greg was up here at Christmas and I had, as I've mentioned before, a long-time friend up.
And I've mentioned this before, so I'll keep it brief, but we were watching a documentary on global warming because it's Christmassy.
And this friend of mine was...
You're saying, you know, well, I don't buy it, you know, and I'll have to look at the source data myself and this and that, right?
It's just like, you know, I don't mean to use an argument from authority, dude, but you are a computer programmer and these are meteorologists from MIT. They could be completely full of nonsense, but, you know, it's a pretty high wall.
And I couldn't call them on it.
I really genuinely felt I couldn't call them on it.
And this isn't the first thing.
There have been other things, you know, like he was depressed and Christina spent a lot of time trying to find him just the right therapist and then he just never went, right?
And, you know, can't call him on that.
These things pile up, right?
Mm-hmm. She's making me again.
No, it makes sense.
Yes, they do. And so for me, it was just like...
I don't want to get back in the box, you know?
I don't want to be back in the box, right?
Right. That's because you all, people spoil me terribly, right?
Because I can talk about whatever I want, right?
Right, yeah.
Right, so once you've had that, it's like, well, I don't want to get back in the little box.
Exactly. And I just, I've been working hard to get out of the little box.
I don't want to go back in, right?
Mm-hmm. I say never being able to leave the Red Room, but that's different.
Right, so there's a lot of avoidance here, right?
Now, did you have fun times with your mom?
No. Okay, so you guys just had no fun times at all.
So this was a relief for you, but there were elements that were not unfamiliar, right?
Right. Oh, man.
Mm-hmm. No, sorry, go on.
Sorry, what was your feeling there?
Go on. Okay.
Because it...
I mean...
I think I felt a plug go into something there, so let's stop on that.
Yeah, I just see how it is very much a repetition of that.
Because throughout the relationship, she was a very difficult person to...
Manage sometimes.
Not that you should manage people at all, but I mean...
This is your friend not talking about, right?
Exactly, but it's similar to my mom because my mom was very emotionally unstable, you know, there were lots of issues you couldn't talk about, and just very erratic behavior, and it's very similar to this friend in a lot of ways.
Right, right. So you're in your Simon the Box of Shorts, right?
Yeah. I'm used to managing.
I'm used to self-censoring to manage other people's anxiety.
That's the only thing that I can have that gives me control or some sense of efficacy in a relationship, right?
Right. And clearly when you said, look, I don't like being around your girlfriend, and she came back with...
I have no idea what you're talking about.
She has basically, I don't know what she does that could be conceivably wrong.
Then you feel, I mean, that is a temptation to start self-managing, right?
And to start self-censoring, which results in what?
Your church lady coming up and lecturing you about being open-minded and giving it a shot, right?
Right.
And what are you feeling now?
I don't know.
I just got unbelievably sad.
Go on.
Like just as soon as I made that connection.
And this sadness would have been very dangerous with your mother, right?
Yeah. Why's that?
Because... It was a threat to her.
It's like...
It is in a way a threat to her, but mostly it's like...
Revealing...
Any kind of pain around her, it's just not a very smart thing, obviously.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it would have evoked guilt in her, and these people are so hardwired that empathy within them turns to rage, right?
Yeah. Right.
So this is what's behind the irritation, right?
It's the sadness. And that makes you feel vulnerable and helpless.
And so you talk yourself into compromise and, quote, reasonable thinking, right?
Right. Because the sadness is what happens when we give up hope, right?
Yeah. I mean, people think I have a band hammer.
I have a much bigger hope hammer.
Mm-hmm. And what I did,
because I know that it's important when you're there to talk about me, but what I did with my friend was I just basically said, if he wants to fight for the relationship, he can get off his ass and fight for the relationship.
If he wants. But I'm going to see what he does if I don't call him back.
Right. I'm sick and tired of pretending I'm on a tandem bike with somebody and I'm doing all the goddamn pedaling.
And I'm doing all the goddamn reasonableness and I'm doing all the goddamn emotional work.
Yeah. You know, let someone fight for me for a change.
Mm-hmm. Let someone get off their ass and come and fight for me.
Let me be the one who has to be won over for once.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. So?
Because that just seems like...
I mean, I've been putting so much work into trying to understand this relationship and my feelings about it.
And I've been trying to be sensitive to her feelings about what I'm saying and all of this stuff.
And her response is just to play dumb and be manipulative.
Right.
So then if I don't respond, let's see what what she does.
It's just curious.
It's not manipulation.
I don't feel like responding.
Yeah.
If somebody wants to really work hard to win back my friendship, I'm open to that.
Right.
But I'm sick and tired of doing all the work and pretending it's a relationship because that's my childhood.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
I was always the variable that had to change, right?
Right. Everybody else could be as crazy as they wanted and I always had to be the one running around picking up the goddamn pieces.
Right. I mean, Christine and I have talked about it.
I mean, we're just sort of jokey, but it's like, you know, if she would ever leave me, like, I'd be literally hanging on to her ankle, sobbing.
She tried to track herself down the driveway.
She'd be like 12 security guards and four tasers and, I don't know, like a beluga harpoon to get me off her leg, right?
Because it's just like, I would do anything to keep this woman, right?
Right. Right. And so I said, well, to myself, I said, okay, well, so this is what I would do to keep my wife.
And I would go to any extreme, do anything, anything that I conceivably could to give her anything that she wants and to make her happy and to make sure that her life is as spectacular, as wonderful as possible, I will do anything that I can to make that happen.
And so I thought, okay, so that's what love is, right?
I mean, it's for me, right?
So let's see if my friend can pick up the phone.
Let's see, what is the barrier to this person?
And how high is it, right?
Right. And as it turns out...
I haven't seen him in, I guess, four months.
He called once, I never called him back, never heard from him again.
And that's painful.
Yeah.
We have to work with the facts, right?
Mm-hmm.
I'm not doing him any favors.
Yes.
By pedaling for two.
And you sure as hell are not doing Laverne any favors.
Pedaling for two. Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
You know, we enable people when we let them get away with non-reciprocal stuff.
We make them lazy, right?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have only strengthened her desire and willingness to bully, right?
Because that's how she gets away with it, right?
You're scared of her. You're scared of her temper, you're scared of her disapproval, you're scared of her manipulation, right?
Yes. And since she's known you over the past four years, it's not a criticism, it's just pointing out a fact, right?
It's gotten worse, right?
Because you've been reinforcing it all the time.
Yeah. Because when she gets mad, you veer off, right?
You go, okay, we'll add that to the list of things we don't talk about, and we don't talk about the list, and we don't talk about why anything's on the list, right?
Right. So what you're doing is you're feeding her beast, right?
That's true.
Every time we let people get away with stuff, we make their dockside stronger.
Yeah, that's hard to accept.
Thank you.
There's a bit in the RTR book about the vengeance of the slave.
Yeah, yeah, I totally see that.
Right, because you're like, well, I want to save the friendship.
No, you don't want to save the friendship.
That's not your real motive.
That's not why you would get back in touch with her and peddle for two, right?
Exactly. It would be to control your own anxiety, and it would be a very elegant screw you to the girl in question, to the woman in question, right?
Because if we keep pedaling for two, all that happens is other people's legs get weaker to the point where they can't even walk, right?
Right. Yeah.
And that's the irony, right?
You helped lead her to this girl, her girlfriend.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
No, it really does.
It's just...
That's the one thing I had not even crossed my mind yet.
Well, I mean, also besides, you know, repeating the relationship with my mother, but I had this mythology of, like, I was the one helpful friend, but that's just nonsense.
Well, I wouldn't go to the other extreme necessarily, and I've just been pointing out the negative sides of things, right?
I think that if she had wanted to open up about these things, you would have been happy and relieved, right?
Yeah. So it's not like you were in there.
I'm just talking about some of the negative effects of your actions.
I'm not saying that your intent was, there was nothing good and your intent was malevolent or anything like that, right?
Like if my friend...
Sorry, go on.
Yeah, I understand.
It's just... I wouldn't have said that there was anything negative before.
Right. And I don't want you to go and go to the other extreme because this is always the challenge, right?
You're all a bunch of really hyper people, right?
Me too. But it's like we go from one extreme to the other, right?
So it's like all JC, right?
It's like, oh, I guess the solution is for me to never talk to women again.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
And I'm not saying you're in a category, but you don't want to go to like, well, it was all bad, right?
I mean... I know that if my friend had said, you know, geez, I was thinking about this thing at Christmas and that was kind of a weird moment.
How was that for you? I would have been happy.
Yeah, that's true.
Right? And it's the same thing.
If this girl had written you back and were positive, you would have been happy, right?
So it's not like we're just in there totally to shaft them.
But the fact is that we're not happy at being censored.
Right? And... Right, so we get back.
If we're not happy at being censored, that unhappiness, and we feel resentful of being censored, or feeling censored, we don't like that feeling where we can't talk about things.
And that comes out somewhere, right?
And it comes out through avoidance, but without avoidance of the person, only avoidance of the aggression, which enables and swells the aggression in that person.
Right. Right. I mean, I kick people off the boards to try to do my tiny little pot to help save their souls.
Yeah. It's the kindest conceivable thing that I could do for them.
Oh yeah, I can see that.
Like, don't keep acting this way because you're digging yourself into a hole over and over again.
Mm-hmm. And you can do that, but I'm not going to help you because I have too much respect for the human spirit to watch somebody self-mutilated that way or to enable it or to provide a forum for it or anything like that.
Right. And that's a hard thing for us to, right?
It's a hard thing to stand there and say, you know what?
You do the work. I'm just going to see what you'll bring into the table, because that causes us, as you say, sadness and anxiety, right?
Right. Because you know, and I know, and everybody on the call knows, exactly what's going to happen to your friend if you don't put, if you don't pedal for two.
Right.
What's going to happen?
Now I'm kind of fogging up.
Thank you.
Excellent. That means we're getting really close to the core.
The flash pots are going off.
The fog is coming up, right?
I hear the march of the Valkyries and Jim Morrison at the same time.
Okay. What's going to happen if you follow your irritation and don't talk to this person for a while?
Because you don't want to, right?
If you did, you'd be calling that person, not me, right?
Right. So if you were 100% authentic to your feelings, I don't feel like calling this person.
There's no such thing as positive obligations that I haven't chosen.
I owe nothing to this person.
If I owe them money, I'll send them a check, but I owe nothing to this person.
What's going to happen if you don't call her?
My first thought was she's not going to contact me again.
Yeah. I mean, sweet mother of God, Colleen, your mother didn't.
Yeah. But why would this go?
Your mother didn't.
Yeah, I mean, if this is just a repetition of that relationship...
Thank you.
I mean, I didn't expect my mom to contact me again.
I knew she just wanted me gone.
Right. Right.
And if somebody were to bounce in on Laverne and say, tell me where you think this defensiveness is going to go.
Well, first of all, she's going to say, well, it's worked on her for four years, right?
Right. I know she's going to talk herself into being this, quote, reasonable person, and she's going to come over and do all the work, and I bet you she's going to end up apologizing, too.
Yeah. I'll just let all those little demons in her head do the work.
I don't have to lift a goddamn finger, right?
Right. She'll find, I'm not defensive.
No, you don't understand. You have to see the good in her.
She's working on it. She's in the conversation.
All this nonsense, right?
Yeah. Which is going to cause you to feel this sick familiar weight, this helplessness.
You're going to end up feeling sad and apologetic.
Then you're going to feel angry later, right?
And then you're not going to know whether you should communicate your anger because you already apologized.
And she's going to say, well, now you're really random.
You apologized. Now you're angry at me.
You know this whole trip, right?
Oh, totally. Yeah.
There's nothing that we could write down here that wouldn't have been completely familiar to you, right?
Right. So, if you wait for her, there's nothing wrong with this.
I know that this was never possible in her families, but let her woo you, for Christ's sake.
Right. You know, I mean, when I was...
Oh, I guess I'm old enough now that I don't even say younger.
When I was young, I always had this disparity in some, not all, but some of my relationships.
And I remember a couple of times where...
A girl would want to not date me anymore.
And, you know, some of them would be more long-term or whatever.
And I would feel...
And sometimes this would occur even after the breakup.
Like, I'd really want to be with that person or spend time with that person or this or that or the other.
And I would pour my heart out to this woman.
I'd be crying, not sniveling, pitiful crying, but, you know, like I'd be really passionate and we could make it work.
And they just stare at me like I was just like, you know, like I'd grown a fourth ear on my forehead, right?
And I've talked about this before, but there's always this cliched scene in sitcoms and in movies where the girl is leaving and And the guy is like running through the airport.
You don't see that as much anymore because he gets shot, right?
But this guy would be running through the airport trying to catch up with her, right?
Trying to, oh, I've got to see her.
I've got to get these flowers to her.
I've got to ask her to marry me before she flies off to Japan for three years, right?
Right. That shit never happens.
That is a complete fantasy.
I've never, ever actually heard that happening.
Right. I mean, have you for real?
No. Because people don't care.
They're interchangeable. It's like, oh, I put this card down, I get a new card up, right?
They're interchangeable.
Now, the people who are not interchangeable are the people who have authenticity, the people who are really who they are, right?
It's all notes from an upcoming podcast on why the hell should people love you, right?
Right. Yeah.
But they have something special.
They've got energy, virtue, positivity.
They're helpful. They're excited to be around.
Whatever it is, right?
Now, those people you want to...
And they're not bullshit like Anthony Robbins, you know, feel the power within because I'm nine feet tall and have banana, whatever, right?
Yeah. But...
Those people you want to keep in your life, and they'll fight to keep you in their lives.
Because they value you.
They love you. They fight.
They will fight to keep you.
I mean, if you just woke up tomorrow morning and said, Rich, that's it.
I'm out of here, right? He'd probably pull a me and hang on to your leg or whatever, right?
Oh, yeah. He'd chase you down.
He'd follow you. He'd chew through ten cops.
Whatever, right? Yes.
Because he treasures you.
Right? He loves you.
And so that gives security.
You have the security to make mistakes because you're adored, right?
Right. To be who you are, to let it all hang out, so to speak, right?
Right. And it's okay to let people chase you.
It's okay to have a high wall that they have to climb over, right?
Right. I mean, an institution as evil as the army has basic training, and we can't even let people call us twice?
Exactly. So I think it's perfectly healthy to say, and I think absolutely necessary to say, you know what?
You fight for me. I'm going to do nothing, not going to be rude, not going to call your names, not going to yell at you, not going to whatever, right?
But I'm going to wait until you perform enough actions that I want to call you back.
Yeah. So that's what your irritation is saying, right?
And your sadness is saying, hey, if I'm not pedaling for two, she's not even on the bike.
Yeah. Right?
Right. And you've created that too, right?
Yeah. I mean, you've given her no reason to peddle.
Right. I mean, if this had occurred much, much earlier, maybe something would have been salvageable, but not anymore.
No, no, because I know what you mean, I know what you mean, but I think you're smart enough, I know you're smart enough, that if that had been possible, you'd have gone for it, right?
Hmm. Right?
If it had been possible, because you tested things with her, because there was excitement and philosophy and so on, and that's all good stuff.
But for sure, what happened was, and you may not remember these things, or maybe you, but you came up against the resistance, and we all feel that in people, viscerally, we feel that in our gut, because it's very volatile, it's highly dangerous, right?
Right. And you would have had an urge, if you'd have felt, you looked at that, and you say, okay, you know, is this a wave pool or a tsunami, right?
Yeah. And if it's a wave pool, fuck it.
You know, I'll get knocked over and I'll get back up, right?
Right. If it's a tsunami, if there's no cracks in the defenses, then...
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense. But then I don't see...
The fact that you didn't do it means that there was nothing to be...
Sorry, go on. Yeah, but then I don't see what you mean by I created it.
Well, sorry, you didn't create this defense in her, but you created the presence of that defense in your life.
Right. And you strengthened that defense in her, right?
Right, right. Okay.
You created that in her for you.
Right. Right?
Because this girlfriend, right?
I mean, this is the approach that I took, right?
Because, you know, the first thing I get is an email saying, you know, why am I banned still, right?
It's like, well, perhaps because, you know, you never showed up on Sunday when you were supposed to.
We never talked. And, oh, the first thing I get is an aggressive email, right?
Right. So, I'm not going to respond to that.
So then I get IM messages and other people get IM messages that she's so upset, she's so angry, she can't take it anymore, this and that.
The other is like, this is not helping your case, right?
Yeah. So then I just said, look, I'm on my way for the weekend.
I'm working and we can talk next week maybe or whatever, right?
And then I'm not going to chase her down.
Right. If she wants to do X, Y, and Z to try and figure...
And of course, why am I still banned is exactly what her girlfriend did to you, right?
Yeah, exactly.
It's like, you're still banned because you don't know why you're banned.
Because you have no idea.
You've had a week and you haven't tried to figure anything out, right?
Right. We're good to go.
There hasn't been emails saying, well, you know, I know she's not like she's got a big career that's distracting her, right?
So there hasn't been a list of things saying, okay, well, I thought about this and I think I've understood this and I read this book about conflict and I think that this has happened and so on and so on, right?
I've listened to your podcast about standards and relationships and here's where I don't think that I'm meeting them or here's where I think I might be meeting them but I'm not sure, right?
She could put a little bit. This would be an hour or two or three, right?
Right. But it's not worth that, right?
Right. It's like, okay, well, if it's not worth it, then why would I do all the work?
I'm going to match you jewel for jewel, so to speak, right?
it's not worth it to you why would it be worth it to me right
because if we're in relationships we know that the other person can leave at a moment's notice that just makes us paranoid right Thank you.
Yeah. There's no bond there, right?
Right. If I'm not worth a second callback from a friend of mine for 30 years, if I'm not worth a second callback...
Then, of course, I'm not going to confront him on emotional issues.
Because this is hanging by a thread for him, right?
Yeah. I don't want to be in relationships where anything's hanging by a thread, where if I put a foot wrong, people can get mad at me.
Right. Because I know the difference, right?
You know the difference, not the people.
We know the difference.
And it's dangerous, I guess, to be vulnerable with people who don't value you.
Thank you.
Oh, sure, yeah, of course, right?
Yeah, no, you're right.
Yeah.
Because I'll tell you what you really do.
Sorry, but I didn't want to...
If you were just about to say something else?
No, no. Because this is the last thing that I'll say about this when I think it's...
Because it's not whether she values you that fundamentally you're figuring out here.
It's that I don't value her.
No, I think that's an effect.
But the empirical test is what?
What are you really testing here?
My own emotions?
Um...
Thank you.
People are saying whether you value yourself.
Sorry? People are saying whether you value yourself.
Well, I think that's an aspect of it, but you can do that without doing any experiments with her, so to speak.
And I use the word experiment here in a very loose kind of way, right?
What you're trying to figure out is how much does she value herself?
Oh.
Yeah.
Because I would be on my wife's leg as she tried to march down the driveway because she is so essential to my happiness that… That I don't want to give that up.
I value my happiness and my marriage so much that I would not want to give that up.
In the same way that I'm fierce about FDR. Right.
Because I don't want to give it up.
I don't want it to get taken over by trolls.
I want it to be a safe and productive and positive environment.
I am fierce about it.
Right.
Because I value my happiness.
I value my values.
Yeah. And if my friend of 30 years says that, like if I'm essential to his happiness and he values himself enough to want to hang on to his happiness, Then he won't let one missed phone call in 30 years end the friendship.
He'd fight for it. He'd be fierce for it like a junkie with his heroin, right?
Right. He'd fight for that happiness because he values his own life.
He values his own happiness and he won't give it up without a fight, right?
Right. So if she's just let you go, doesn't call you back if you don't call her back.
And she just doesn't value herself, right?
And if a person doesn't value herself, there's nothing to work with.
Yeah. There's nothing to work with.
It's like trying to marry a ghost or have sex with Jesus.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Actually, it's like being in a three-way with a ghost and Jesus and you're not even there.
Sorry, just kidding. Look at the metaphor because I know you enjoy it so much, so...
My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.
Anyway. So, if somebody doesn't have self-esteem, if somebody doesn't value themselves, there's absolutely nothing to work with.
Whatsoever. Because what are you going to do?
Are you going to say, no, really, you are a value, right?
Right. Well, you can't, right?
Right. There's no external solution.
solution.
No, you can't fix that.
Right?
It's like if somebody's supposed to gain weight, and they just don't want to, what are you Stuff food down their face 24-7?
There's nothing you can do. Right.
If somebody doesn't value themselves, herself, there's nothing to work with.
You can go and blow that balloon up if you want, but the moment you let it go, what happens?
Out it goes. Right.
If a person says, you're a value to me, and they won't lift a fucking finger as you fade away, there's nothing you can do.
You can go lift their finger for them if you want, but the moment that you walk away, they'll just flop it back down again, right?
Because they're fundamentally not there and inert, right?
Right. It's the blow-up doll, right?
Right. You can prop them across to you at dinner, but that doesn't mean you have a relationship, right?
Mm-hmm. Your mom doesn't value herself, right? Not at all.
She kind of hates herself, right?
Yeah. Of course, right?
I mean, she's harmed a child and nothing worse than that.
Right. And so there's nothing for you to work with.
There's nothing for you to work with.
You're like trying to give radiation treatment to somebody who doesn't even want to live, right?
Right. They have to want to live in order for medicine to work, right?
Yeah. I guess what I'm wondering is if...
I understood that about my mother.
I never thought that she would ever change or anything like that.
I never thought that...
There was any relationship there with us, so why was I so blind to it here?
But you weren't blind to it.
At all. I mean, you weren't.
We knew that from the very beginning of this conversation.
Well, when I say we, I mean everyone but you.
So... If I wasn't blind to it, why was I in that relationship?
Well, we sort of know the history of your mom, and we could talk more about that perhaps another time, but the reason that we know that you weren't blind to it with this woman was you said, I don't feel like calling her back, and then you tried to talk yourself out of it, right? Right.
And why? Because you knew if you didn't call her back, she wasn't going to call you back, right?
Right, right. Or if she did, it would be entirely because of her anxiety, like your mom, after the apology, after the abuse, right?
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Because you were like, oh, I really miss you.
I feel bad.
I don't know what happened.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you can get those kind of glommings on, right?
It's got nothing to do with you, right?
Right, right. So you didn't want to put, right, it's the whole thing, right?
Somebody says, this bridge is really firm.
It's like, oh, why don't you walk across it?
Hell no. Right.
This is a, you know, we have a friendship.
Oh, well then, it's not going to matter if you don't call her back right away because you're bothered, right?
She'll figure it out.
She'll bring the work needed to the relationship.
She'll figure out a way to fix it, right?
Yeah. Shit, no.
I better call her back now. Right?
So, yeah, you know, right?
Yeah. You knew that four years ago, because when you would bring up something she didn't like, she'd get really angry or upset or cold or withdraw.
There'd be a real clear sign, like, we don't go there, right?
Yeah. So, who wants a relationship with minefields, right?
Right. So, you knew at that moment that if you were honest, she would cut you off, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And you've done this elaborate dance for a couple of years, and look, there's nothing wrong with it.
I mean, we all have, it's all a journey, right?
There's nothing wrong with it, and you've obviously got some genuinely great intellectual stuff out of the relationship, as did I with my friend and so on, right?
But you knew from the very beginning, and the reason that we talk about this is not to mourn four years past, although that can be a good response, but for the future, right?
But you knew from the very beginning that if you were honest, that the friend, she'd just walk away, right?
Right, right. That you were eminently sacrificable.
Right. That if you asked her to say, I want you to choose the truth of my experience over your own emotional defenses...
I want to be more important to you than your own defenses and your own brutalized history and your own manipulations and whatever, right?
I want you to be bigger than your defenses.
She's like, shit, no, right?
Right. So you knew this from the very beginning.
Yeah. I think Charlotte feels that you ought to be mauled by a bear.
I'm not sure why. Oh, because of the movie we were talking about earlier.
Right. What you need is a spear.
Anyway, we'll come back to that. But I know this is sad, but it's not that painful a kind of sad.
There's a kind of richness in it.
Yeah. It's like the, ah, kind of sad, right?
Right. Right. Because you've been keeping these spinning plates going, right?
And this probably isn't the only relationship where it's shown up.
But you've been kind of working, keeping this circus active, you being on both sides of the tennis court, so to speak.
And that's pretty exhausting, right?
Right, and it's a relief.
Yeah, we do this. You know those trust exercises?
They're kind of crappy, right?
You fall backwards into people's arms.
Do it. Seriously.
And if you fall over, it's like, well, I guess I'm not doing that again, right?
Right, right. So yeah, if people start to censor you, I mean, hey, I feel censored.
I feel like there's a lot of discomfort talking about this topic.
Do you feel that? Nope.
Nope. Well, either I am crazy, in which case I shouldn't be your friend, or I'm not crazy, in which case I'm not gonna be your friend, right?
Right, right. Either way, there's no friendship in the cards, right?
Right. And that, of course, is, you know, this is part of the whole troll management thing, too, right?
It's like, yeah, okay, so if the biggest moral issue that you have is some godforsaken little board squabble from a year and a half ago, then, right, if this is where you want to pour your moral outrage, you know, while we try and deal with the family abuse and the state and religion and all this kind of stuff, right? If this is where you are, then you need to not be here, right?
Right. Mm-hmm.
Not part of this philosophical conversation where we're trying to prioritize things according to some real and objective values.
Yeah.
And most people don't make it.
Thank you.
Most people don't make it.
Because this is very new and this is very challenging, right?
Yeah. This is a mean philosophical conversation, right?
It's not for the faint part, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was, when I was first sort of starting on it, I was like, thinking that two relationships would make it and one of them is obviously not.
But I mean, sweet mother of all that's holy, if you're batting 500, you're doing better than anybody else in the whole company.
I'm telling you, you're doing better than I am, I'll tell you that much.
500. I dream of baton 500.
Right. Yeah, it is pretty fortunate on one hand, I guess. Well, that sounded highly convinced.
I lost one leg of a bear trap, but I guess the other leg is fine.
Yeah, that's a little how it feels right now.
Right, and I'm not trying to say that this erases the pain and suffering that you're feeling right now at all.
Sorry, I didn't mean to make light of that.
One out of two ain't bad.
Sorry, the pain and suffering of my singing is not what we need to add to this right now.
But sorry, anyway, so I don't know if other people got mics on, if they wanted to add anything to it, but that was just sort of the major stuff that I wanted to run through.
Was that useful or helpful, or is there anything else that would be major that you'd want to talk about with me rather than with yourself or with Rachel?
Oh, no, I know some other people had some stuff to talk about, so thank you, by the way.
Oh, anytime.
And great, great, great stuff, as always.
Anybody?
Anybody else?
What's the bad?
Let's chat.
Other chats.
Okay.
All right.
Well, that is getting late.
So I guess we'll see you in about, I don't know, 13 hours?
A little bit under. And thanks, everyone.
It was a great chat.
Thanks, Colleen, of course, as always.
And I will send you a copy of this.
And then we'll, I think we, with those names of those characters, I really think we could make a great, great TV show.
So we'll, yeah.
All right, thanks everyone. I'll talk to you later.
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