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April 30, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
34:22
1050 The Atheists, The Mormon and The Baby Part 2

(Part 1 1045) When a family member wants to raise a kid religious - what is the best way to approach him?

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Hey, Steph. Hey, how's it going?
Good, how are you doing? I'm fine, thanks.
I'm fine, thanks. Alrighty, so we had a couple more questions that we didn't get to ask last time that we thought that we would ask you now, if that's alright?
Sure. Usually the first question that people ask me after the previous call is, how exactly am I supposed to get a word in Edgewise?
Is that... Yeah, that was the first one.
Right. And listen, this is totally rude of me and I do apologize.
Could I just get your girlfriend's name again?
It's Camille. Camille, okay, good.
Yeah, I know. It's kind of unique.
I think I drifted a little bit there.
No, this is good because this is very close to the name of a Spice and my middle name is Basil.
So we're going to start a band called The Spice Racks, which I think is fair to do.
Well, I think that... They're already the Spice Girls, so I don't know.
I know, and I just thought that might be a bit of an odd addition to a lineup like that, so Spice Racks, I think, is the way to go.
Okay, sounds good. I bring the Spice, and anyway.
Okay, well, first of all, how did the last conversation go for you in terms of usefulness, help, trauma, breathlessness?
No, I thought it was really helpful.
It kind of helped both of us look at it in a different way and talk to each other differently.
I thought it was really helpful.
I don't know. Yeah, I agree.
I thought it was extremely helpful.
And the last few arguments or conflicts that we've had since then have gone infinitely better, I would say.
Right, because... Sorry, if I remember right, you were the couple who, Andy, was saying that...
With the RTR, it's like, I feel this.
Well, I feel this. And then, tumbleweeds, you know, skulls, you know, dead vultures.
So that's something that you've gotten past.
Is that right? Yeah.
Yes. Good. Good.
Okay. All right. Well, that's it.
I just wanted to make sure that it was useful and the approach was working for you.
And now, if there's anything else that I could help you with, fire away.
Okay. Well, last time we talked, we kind of ended pretty abruptly because I go to volleyball practice, so I apologize for that.
But I had one more question because we ended with kind of deciding that it's a good idea for me to talk to my brother about...
About his religion and especially teaching his children his religion.
And we kind of ended with that it would be a good idea to talk to him about it.
But I was just curious about after I do talk to him and Because this is what I think will happen if I do talk to him about it.
And I think that...
I mean, he's a pretty understanding guy.
Like, we have a good relationship, I think.
And so...
I think that he'll listen to me and he'll kind of really think about what I'm saying.
But... I'm just curious about what there is to do if he listens to me and processes all of what I'm saying, but then still decides to teach his children Mormonism.
Which is the most likely outcome, to be honest, right?
Yeah, yeah. So I don't know what I should do about that.
I understood the question until the end.
It was so close. Well, I just don't know how to approach him and how to have a positive relationship with him if he does decide to continue teaching his children Mormonism and how the best way to go about it would be.
Right, right. Well, I mean, you're asking the million-dollar question for sure, and of course it is the question which is the most heart-sore, if that makes any sense, and high-risk for rational atheists.
With regards to religious family members, it is a very difficult, difficult question.
And what I'm going to do is, rather than answer a difficult question, just continue to describe it as difficult and hope that that sounds wise.
Okay. Yeah, that sounds fine.
Excellent. So, you had another question that we could try?
Okay, no. Alright, well, let me ask you some questions.
First of all, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down, why do you think your brother is religious?
And of course, as atheists, we can bypass the idea that God has spoken to him and that he has experienced some sort of divinity and so on.
Why do you think he is religious?
I think that he's religious because it's kind of deep rooted in our culture and Both sides of my family are religious, and he was taught that as a child.
And as we were kind of leaving the church, he was just leaving to go on his mission to Germany to teach the gospel for two years in solitude, basically.
I'm sorry, I just didn't quite understand that last, but teach the gospel in solitude?
I thought somebody else had to be there.
Okay, well, he has a companion, but he's basically...
Alone from any of his family.
Alone from any of his family and any of us that were...
Like, he couldn't talk to us for two years.
Like, when your parents left the church is almost the same time that he went on a mission.
Yeah. Or they left the church during his mission or something to that effect.
Yeah. And Mormons self-funded this kind of stuff, right?
It's not like he got paid a lot of money to do it and it was a career option for him.
No. It's part of the religion that you have to proselytize on your own for some time.
It's mostly just assumed that when you turn 19, you're going on a mission.
Wow. Okay.
I'm just making it for my own cult expansion.
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that it's just part of...
His history and our family's history and just what he was taught growing up.
That's just all that he's known and it's what is comfortable to him, I think.
I think that is a completely wonderful and endearing non-answer.
What? I mean, I think you're like reading off the back of the, you know, well, it's all he's known and blah, blah, blah.
But that's not true, right? I mean, he's known other ideas and other belief systems.
Many, many people have found what they've brought up.
Yeah, and I think it's just what's comfortable to him, what's easy to him.
He lives in Utah. His wife's Mormon.
Like, it's just what's easy for him.
Well, but see, that's an effect, not a cause, right?
So if you say, well, he's Mormon because his wife is Mormon, that's a bit circular, right?
Because his wife is only Mormon because he was Mormon, right?
Yeah. And if you say, well, it's a comfortable environment and that's why he's a Mormon, it's like, well, no, he's only around all these other Mormons because he stayed in the church, right?
Mm-hmm. So there's something else.
Mm-hmm. I don't know what that is.
Well, you do, but you don't know yet.
Yeah. You know, I'm always the annoying guy who says you already know, and you do, but you don't know consciously yet, right?
Because you've had these, quote, answers, which I understand and I sympathize with, but they're not the real answers for why he's religious.
But because you've had these sort of answers, you haven't been pursuing the real answer, right?
I mean, if you think you're somewhere, you don't keep going towards it, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So... The reason, again, I could ask 50 questions, but we have a couple of questions to answer, so we'll jack up the escalator to the point where we might get a nosebleed, but...
The question as to why somebody is religious, as you know, has an enormous amount to do with his social environment and the question of why people stay religious is not because they...
I mean, so, yeah, he started religious and there's a hump, so to speak, to get out of that.
There's a barrier to exit, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is obviously, you know what it's like?
It's like either a roach motel, you know?
Religious people check in, but they don't check out.
Or it's like, if you've ever rented a car, they have those one-way spikes in the ground, so you can drive, but you can't drive out kind of thing.
So there is a barrier to exit for sure, but what is it that your brother will face if he loses his faith or if he drops his belief in, or his superstition?
What is he going to face? I mean, in the past, let's say, because he wouldn't have faced attack from your family, right?
Yeah. It's not so much my family at all, but probably his wife's family, exile from the church, all of his friends.
He lives in Provo, Utah, so I don't know.
It would probably... Most of the people there are Mormon and everyone that he associates with there is Mormon and I don't think that those relationships would work out very well if he wasn't Mormon.
No, I'm sure they wouldn't.
So he might have to move, right?
Do you think? And of course he would face the risk of divorce, right?
Yeah. And is that, I mean, what does the church say if one person becomes an unbeliever?
I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the church, because...
Don't you have to get your divorce approved by the church?
Yeah, you have to get, because when you get married when you're Mormon, you're sealed.
You can get a civil marriage, but then you're also sealed in the temple for eternity.
And so when you want to get a divorce, you have to, if you're exiled from the church, you're not allowed to go in the temple.
And I think that you're sealing for eternity with your spouse is ended, I think.
Right. Okay. So, they're okay with divorce.
If one person becomes an unbeliever, they'll find a way to swing it, so to speak, right?
I think so. Yeah.
Or if one person becomes abusive, I mean, quote, abusive.
Yeah. Right.
Yeah. So, he would face a...
And he has... But he has a job.
He's not working for the church, right?
He has a job and he does stuff on the church, right?
Yeah. Yeah. He's going to school.
He's getting his PhD in...
So he could work anywhere, right?
Yeah. It's not a PhD in art history.
Even if it was, he could work somewhere and make a go of it.
But he's got kids, right?
Yeah, of course. We talked about that last time.
One kid, yeah. One kid.
So... So, if you look, his religion has nothing to do with God fundamentally.
I mean, I think that's just important because there's no God, right?
It's like saying, I'm addicted to leprechauns.
Well, it's not like people have to pull leprechauns out of my hand because I'm going to snort them.
There are no leprechauns, right?
So, I must be addicted to something else.
And so, he does not have faith in God.
He does not believe in God because there's no God.
And he's obviously an intelligent fellow.
He's going to do a PhD. So, he knows that, right?
Yeah. So, and I've got a video or podcast on this called The Goddess Fear of Others.
And I think it's true that he's afraid of attack from those around him.
And of course, you're right.
I mean, there's some sort of comfort that he gets.
But the primary fear is attack and rejection from those around him.
And that threatens the entire basis of his relationships, right?
Because if you have a huge area in your relationship...
I.e. doubt in the existence of God or doubt in the virtue and value of this kind of cult.
If you have a huge area in your relationship that is a huge part of your relationship that you simply cannot talk about, that you will be attacked and rejected for talking about your genuine thoughts and feelings in that area, people avoid that knowledge, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, it does make sense. They avoid the knowledge that they're going to be rejected if they're honest with people because he has doubts.
He has doubts.
He's far too intelligent a human being, and no human being can believe in this ridiculous nonsense of eternal guys in the sky and so on, and dead Jewish zombies coming back to life and breathing life into things and turning water.
I mean, nobody can believe that stuff with a straight face, so deep down he has doubts.
And the reason that he stays in the religion is that he knows that if he, deep down, he knows that if he brings his doubts and questions and rational thinking, which obviously he has an excess of as a graduate student, well, not an excess of, but relative to what would be welcome in his community, so he's afraid of bringing his true thoughts and feelings to his community because he knows that he will be rejected by that community, that conformity is the basis.
Empty, superstitious conformity is the basis of his relationships.
Right. So, that would be the first piece of knowledge that I would try and work into my system before having this conversation.
Because if you talk about God, you're missing what the real motive is.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, that makes sense. So, what we're really afraid...
Of his kid learning is not learning about God.
Because, I mean, if I have kids, I'm going to teach them about gods because they're a real part of the human psychological and emotional landscape.
So we're not afraid of him being taught about God.
We're not afraid of him being taught about religion.
Religion is a very real facet of human life.
It's not like I'm going to pretend the government doesn't exist in people's minds to my kids, right?
I mean, to talk about these things.
Mm-hmm. But what we're afraid of is bullying, right?
Yeah. And conformity.
Well, I mean, conformity is one of these, I mean, we want to conform to reason and evidence and we want to conform to, you know, gravity, right?
So, I mean, conformity is not necessarily bad, but what we're afraid of is the child being bullied, right?
The child being told that he's bad if he doesn't believe in that which is impossible to believe, right?
Right. Right. And so, this is the tricky operation, right?
If he can understand that he's actually afraid of his community, that he's afraid of being attacked for asking reasonable questions, right?
I mean, he's, as you say, he's not crazy, he's not nasty, he's not right, so he can obviously understand that it is quite reasonable to have questions about the existence of God, right?
Right. I mean, he would say, yes, that's part of the faith is the struggle with that, right?
And, yeah, okay, this would be my approach.
I think this would work. I don't want to sound like I'm doing this on the fly, but this would be my approach.
I've never had to have one of these, right?
So, I mean, my dad's religious, but we haven't spoken for years, so it doesn't matter.
But it would be something like this.
Doubt is part of this situation.
God does not reveal himself. The age of miracles has passed.
And doubt is a natural part of religious life, right?
Doubt and confusion and concern, right?
Right. Now...
There is, however remote he might believe it to be, there is some vague, tiny possibility that God does not exist.
Just, I mean, as a rational human being, and he is, right?
He would have to admit that there is some theoretical possibility that that for which there is no evidence for does not exist, right?
Right. And I would ask him, how is this handled in the community?
Mm-hmm. Like, what happens when you doubt?
And if you make it all about him, then you might have a chance.
Because the important thing is to get him to hear himself.
I know this all sounds too obtuse for words, but if you try and put your opinions on him, his defenses are going to come up, right?
Right. Right, and say, I mean, obviously honesty, and pointing out some of the contradictions.
I mean, obviously the Mormons don't believe that lying is a virtue, right?
Right. Right. So since lying is a virtue, sorry, since telling the truth is a virtue, and everybody experiences doubt, how is this discussed?
How is this talked about in the community?
What goes on? And what do you think he would say?
Honestly, I don't know what he would say.
Probably... Andy, would you like to say it for me?
Well, I mean, I don't think that it would be discussed at all.
And if it was brought up, it wouldn't be for very long.
Yeah. That's been my experience of religion when I was religious.
Right, right. But it's not good to lie, but we can't talk about any doubts we might have.
That's, I mean, it's, you know, for the sake of the kid, right?
For the sake of the kid. He can make his own choices.
He's an adult or whatever, right?
But for the sake of the kid, that's going to be confusing, right?
Tell the truth, but don't be honest about your doubts, which every human being has, even the most devout, right?
Mother Teresa had crazy-ass doubts about the existence of God and didn't believe off and on for her whole life.
So if it's too tough for Mother Teresa, it's not like she had a whole lot else to occupy her mind other than appeasing Fidel Castro and the Russians.
If Mother Teresa had doubts, then surely it's not an unreasonable thing to say that doubt is part of the religious experience.
And is the kid going to be able to be honest?
Like, what are you going to teach him? Be honest or don't be honest, right?
Yeah. Now, if you're trying to get a sense of where he is in the community, how honest he can be in his community, and if he completely shuts you down as far as that goes, then obviously his fear of his community is so great that you can't even get through to the question of God, because God isn't the problem.
The problem is the attack or rejection from the community.
Right. And it is always an interesting question to ask religious people.
It's like, what do you do with your doubt?
I mean, do you talk about it with people?
Because if they do, then that's unprecedented.
Because, you know, this is something that you always have to...
It's the elephant in the room that you have to keep slidling around, right?
But if they don't, then the question of honesty becomes important.
So I would approach it just trying to understand what his relationship with his community, what happens in terms of doubt for him, how he processes it.
Is he able to be honest with his family, with his friends, with his community?
Do they openly discuss the doubt?
Because it's tough to sustain a belief in something where there's no evidence for it whatsoever, and the idea is totally contradictory, right?
I mean, it's tough. We can have sympathy for somebody who feels that that is necessary, right?
Yeah. I mean, does that make any sense?
Yeah, that makes sense. That's a tough position to hold, right?
Right. And the reason that, you know, if he says, you know, why are you bringing all this up?
Because he'll try and do anything but talk about this, right?
Because this is always the sore spot.
Because it's like, well, I'm just curious, like concerned.
I guess you could say concerned, but more curious about what you're going to teach your kid, right?
Are you going to teach him to tell the truth, which includes telling the truth about his doubts and working through them from an honest and open standpoint?
Or is doubt going to be something that he's just not allowed to express?
Which would seem to me to be kind of not a healthy way to approach the question of bringing up a kid, right?
You have to believe in something that there's no evidence for and is logically impossible and you're not allowed to voice any doubts.
That would seem to me to be a somewhat suboptimal approach to parenting.
Right. And how do you think that approach would be?
Yeah, I think that would be a good way to approach it.
I think that's interesting and I'm curious as to what they would say.
See, you don't want to have a deal-breaker conversation the first time around, right?
Because a lot of atheists and even some anarchists and so on will bring the deal-breaker question to the table, right?
Like, you know, if you vote, I'm never going to talk to you again.
Yeah. And, I mean, ultimatums are just so not healthy, right?
And so not good, right? Because it's premature and you don't end up with any closure from an ultimatum, right?
So, obviously, you don't want to say, well, if you breathe the word of God to this kid, I'm never going to talk to you again because that's just going to rouse all his defenses and there's going to be no exchange of ideas, no curiosity.
And, of course, this is not a conversation that can be resolved in one sitting, right?
Right. But if you ask questions about him and just try and get a lay of the landscape, then he can start to think or feel that he's in a safer environment to talk about these things than he would be in his church.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think that'll happen either.
Yeah, and the other thing that we were interested about, it's kind of the same kind of thing, is like, for example, there's a possibility of having this conversation with him or him and his wife and there's a possibility of having this conversation with him or him and his
Camille, I think having a feeling of, even if it doesn't work out, still wanting to hold on to, you know, the positive aspects of the relationship, even if he kind of shuts you down in this area.
And I was kind of interested in what kind of way Is that going to affect our relationship if something like that were to happen?
Like, if he were to totally shut it down, either first time or eventually, and then we continue to spend time with him, what kind of effects would that have on our relationship, Camille and I? Right, no, I mean, that's a good question.
I am going to say that the reason that I suggest the exploration is because through the exploration you will get some kind of Resolution.
Now, resolution doesn't mean you never talk to him again, and resolution doesn't mean he immediately becomes a card-carrying, hardcore atheist.
I mean, that's not what I mean by resolution.
What I mean by resolution is that you will gain some sense of emotional certainty with regards to what is going to happen with the relationship, right?
Because if you – I'm not saying you would, but if you slam down an ultimatum called be an atheist or never talk to me again on the table, then the whole thing is going to go awry and you're not going to have any kind of satisfying understanding of what's going on or why he would make whatever the inevitable choice that he would make.
And then you'd be stuck.
You'd have to either back down or enforce your ultimatum and that would be confusing and it would be painful and it would go on emotionally for quite some time.
Whereas if you're vulnerable with somebody – because Camille, where this is coming from in you is not, as far as I understand it, far as I understand it, any kind of, and what I genuinely believe to be true, any kind of ideological aggression or discontent with different opinions or, I mean, you genuinely feel that he's stuck in an illusion and that illusion is not healthy for his kid, right?
Right. And not healthy for him, although it may be like heroin feels good in the short run, but it keeps you around a whole bunch of other addicts and it gets you stuck in a lifestyle.
Because that's the problem with addiction and we have to deal with this, I think.
Religion is a form of mental addiction.
And the problem with addiction is not even so much the thing that you're addicted to, but the fact that your entire social environment reinforces that addiction.
So if you become a heroin addict, you're not hanging out at the library with a bunch of Mensa students, right?
You are in that environment where that drug is omnipresent, where the lifestyle chart is supported, and so on.
So the real problem with addiction is not even so much after a while the thing itself, but the social environment which supports it.
And that's the case with religion as well.
I mean, it's not God. It's the social environment that you would have to give up if you give up the addiction.
That is the hardest part of addiction for many people.
So it's that concern that you have.
If you stay with that concern and if you come from a place of love, and it seems to me that that's where you're starting from, that you don't want to see another child go down into the sinkhole of superstition and you genuinely are concerned About your brother, because particularly as someone who's dedicating himself to a rational life, this split in him between rationalism and superstition is not going to be healthy for him, right?
I mean, it's the double thing of Orwell.
It's really, really not good for your brain to work two opposing muscles continually.
So, if you come from a place of love and vulnerability and a genuine desire to help the other person, then fundamentally, if they keep spitting in your face, the resolution of the relationship will happen for you, right?
Yeah. I'm not saying he will, obviously, right?
But if you keep putting your heart out there and say, I'm coming from a place of love and concern for you, and I really genuinely want a better and productive and more positive relationship with you and with your kid or kids and so on, if you genuinely come from a positive place and he continues to evade or attack, then what will happen is you will simply have less and less of a desire to talk to him.
Right. And not because of atheism versus religion, fundamentally, right?
Right. So that's why I always talk about the sort of the patience and the vulnerability and talking about the real issues which are emotional and not...
And not metaphysical about existence of gods and so on.
And the reason for that is that you're thinking now, well, I'm going to end up having to choose between X and Y and that's going to be a difficult choice.
But if you take the approach of vulnerability and you take the approach of coming from love, then you don't end up being in that position where you have to choose between X and Y and it's a very difficult choice because what will happen is the choice will kind of be made for you over time if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't make sense.
But yeah, I understand that.
I understand that also. Yeah, and I think that was my first...
Andy, you're not going to end up being the enforcer here because that's your concern, right?
Yeah, and I mean, I was kind of leaning towards was just like, I'm sure that after you have this kind of discussion with him, you will have a different feeling Than you do right now.
Because right now it just seems kind of like a feeling of uncertainty about how it's going to go.
And afterwards it'll definitely change.
But I don't know. I mean, I was just concerned that...
It's not going to happen just once.
And it's not going to happen twice. Not happen five or ten or twenty times.
But she's going to go back.
And my suggestion, Camille, is that you go back not with...
I can't believe you're not an atheist.
I'm not saying you would, right? But you go back and say, well, since you and I have talked, I have felt X and Y and Z. Yeah.
Go back with your feelings.
And then, of course, if he continues to kind of push your feelings into the mud for the sake of his superstitious terror of his community, then after a while, it's not like you're going to have to choose for the relationship to continue or not.
You're just going to realize that there's no possibility of a relationship because you're bringing honesty, vulnerability and love to him.
And he is choosing this superstitious community at your expense and kind of rejecting or attacking you.
You know, it doesn't take too many times of driving your hand into a brick wall to lose the desire to do so, right?
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, relationships aren't up to us.
I mean, it's not something we can control.
I mean, when relationships are entirely one-sided, we call it stalking, right?
A relationship is not something that we make a decision about.
A relationship is something that we are open and honest and vulnerable with and then we see how we feel.
Because we can't force ourselves to like someone we don't like.
We can't force ourselves to not love someone we do love.
So relationships are not under our control.
The only thing we can control is the degree of honesty and vulnerability and love that we bring to our interactions.
But, you know, I mean, this happens to me all the time.
Some people love what I do. Some people hate what I do.
Some people think I'm a great guy.
Some people think I'm an idiot.
Some people think I'm a bad guy.
I mean, I can't control any of that.
The only thing I can control is the degree of honesty and curiosity that I bring to the interactions and integrity.
And after that, I mean, it's completely up to the other person what they do.
And so I think you may be – and I think this may be you more, Andy, because it's coming from your fear that you're going to end up being the sort of – The mafia-faced enforcer here, you know, like, tap, tap, tap, you know, we made a decision that if he wasn't going to be going with us, and she's like, but I want to call him.
No, you can't call, right?
That kind of stuff, right? And that's going to cause a lot of conflict and upset in your relationship, for sure.
But if she brings, Camille, if you bring this honesty and vulnerability to your brother and come from a place of love, you'll find out what your heart tells you about the relationship.
And we just can't argue with that stuff fundamentally, I think.
I mean, we can, but it doesn't help.
Right.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
This was alarmingly quick.
What? Let me tell you a story.
Here you go.
Okay. Sorry.
Okay, yeah. What I was going to say is that, yeah, I was...
I was nervous about something like that possibly happening, and I obviously wouldn't want that, but I also think that, I mean, Camille's obviously very intelligent and very aware of what's going on, and I would never have done that.
I don't think I would have done that anyways.
I know that there would have been a desire to do something like that, but I don't think that that would ever happen because of you.
I just think that you would be able to make a good decision about it, or a decision that you felt comfortable with.
Okay, not a decision. Sorry, do you want me to start that speech again?
I can, you know. No, no, no.
I understand what you're saying.
You just keep going to people with your open heart, and if they like it, they like it.
And if they don't, then you get hurt.
And after getting hurt a bunch of times, you no longer want to run at them with your open heart.
Right. Yeah, I think...
I think that's what we wanted to...
Does that make sense to you?
Do you understand what's going on? Yeah. I think that makes sense to me.
Definitely. And I really do sympathize with the choice and the decision.
It is... Frankly, it's really horrible, as you know, to have to deal with this kind of stuff.
It is really painful.
You want to be looking forward to this baby with all your heart and without these kinds of trepidations and worries and concerns.
It is a very difficult and very hard thing to contemplate and to have to do to stage this kind of Open an honest intervention, so to speak, or change the metric of your family.
And frankly, this should be what your parents are doing.
This should not be your job, but your parents are also going to have a tough time doing it because of their role in getting him into the church, right?
Right. So, I mean, huge sympathies for you.
I wish there was another way to do it, but ignoring that kind of stuff is just going to have a negative effect on your relationship.
Right. With yourself, with the truth, with virtue, with happiness.
I mean, it's just too high a price to pay to just ignore it.
Right. I think that's true.
Awesome, Steph. Thank you so much.
I mean, I really think this helped a lot too with the rest of the things that we want to know.
Is there anything else that you're thinking about? No.
Thanks for all your help. Well, let me know how it goes if you don't mind.
And I'll send you a copy of this to have a listen to in case there's anything you missed.
But yeah, thanks.
I mean, I think you're doing fantastic stuff.
I'm really sorry that it has to go this way.
But I think you can get some real strength and openness out of this, which if it works with your brother, fantastic.
If it doesn't, it's only going to strengthen your other relationships that much more.
Right. Thank you. Thanks so much, Steph.
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