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April 16, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
33:06
1042 Job Interview Skills Part 2
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But first and foremost, tell me a little bit about this last call and all that kind of good stuff, the last interview that you had and so on.
Yeah, well, shortly after our last call, I contacted my old partner and we talked for a while about how I ran the business beforehand and what we could have done to improve things if we did it a second time around.
And I also sent the podcast to him and he enjoyed it.
And then a couple days ago, he calls me up and says, hey, we're looking for a project manager and I recommended you to the owner of the company and he'd like to do a phone interview with you.
And so, yeah, it's great.
And I was a little worried at first because we just signed a lease here and I know they're located in Atlanta and we're located in Columbus.
Yeah. So, I told him about that.
I'm like, you know, I'd have to break my lease.
It'd be tough to do the move again, all that kind of thing.
Then he went back to the owner and told him about that and came back and said, no worries, the owner will pay to break your lease and help you move and all that kind of stuff.
So, just give him a call and talk to him and see if it's a good fit for you.
So, I gave him a call and We talked for a good 40 minutes.
I was asking questions about the companies, asking questions about me, talking about Atlanta and how it is as a city, and the school's there, so Colleen can find a place to go to school while I'm working there.
Right, right, right. And it went well, and so he scheduled a second interview for tomorrow at 1.
Well, that's fantastic.
You should, I think, be very pleased.
I just wanted to make sure that I did have a little bit of a podcast on...
Project management?
Yeah, and I listened to that one before our last call, and that highlighted a lot of errors that I made in my first year in business.
That's Free Domain Radio 568, project management.
Yeah. Okay, well that's good.
So I'm obviously thrilled and I'm glad that the conversations that we had helped.
The other one on job interviews, the ones that you and I had, the project went fantastic.
So this is a job that you're interested in pursuing the possibility of, is that right?
Oh yeah, I'm actually really excited about this.
It's a web development firm and they need a project manager.
Right now the CEO is doing the project management and sales and it's just a little too much to be doing both.
Right, right. Well, that's wonderful.
So, and the good thing is, of course, I mean, just psychologically, I think a very good aspect of this is that you have given them a podcast wherein you are really, you talk about your weaknesses, you look at ways to do things better, that there's a, you could say, a kind of vulnerability in that.
Because most people, when they put their interview face on, they put their best foot forward, which It's not particularly positive, I think.
You want to be realistic about your strengths and weaknesses because that indicates that you're a person who can rationally assess situations, learn from them, and grow.
Yeah, yeah. You did something kind of unusual, which you said basically, here's all the ways I screwed up in the past, which is kind of unusual, right?
Right. And I honestly don't know if the owner has heard it, but I know that my old business partner has, so I'm sure he's communicated I don't know how much he's communicated to the actual owner about this.
It's a little non-intuitive, but I think that it's important.
Sure. But I also talked, I mean, I was real honest and open with our first interview.
I mean, I just, I told him, you know, I'm not too big on the sales.
I'm not a big, you know, I don't land jobs.
They just kind of land and fall in my lap.
That's how it's always worked for me.
And it's not, you know, I'm fine with customer service.
I'm fine once the sale's been made.
It all works out great that way.
He was like, oh, no problem.
I'll be doing all the sales. You don't have to worry about that part.
You might come on sales calls with me, but you can learn as you go along.
All I want you for is to manage these projects and communicate with the customer once we've made the sale.
Did he actually use the phrase, you're pretty little head, i.e., you don't have to worry, you're pretty little head about it?
No, he did not say that.
That's a good sign, actually.
That I would put down as a definite plus, unless you are looking for modeling.
So that's good. So what do you expect is going to be going down tomorrow with your next interview?
Tomorrow it's going to be more detailed, like asking me about my experience and how much I know about this industry.
He says he's just going to be quizzing me on technology, just so he knows that I can communicate with the programming staff.
And design staff. So it's a little bit more like, would it say that you've passed some of the social or softy sides of the interview and that this is going to be more focused on technical knowledge, is that right?
Yeah, that's right. And how do you feel about all of that?
Oh, I feel fine about it.
I mean, I've been doing this since probably 1999.
You know, I haven't been as heavily involved in the programming aspect of it in the last year.
That's what my business partner was doing.
But, you know, he kept me up to speed on all the newest toys that are out there like Ajax and a couple...
There's some PHP, I need to refresh myself on what the PHP builders are out there.
There's some new ways to make the coding in PHP extremely simple.
And what is the industry that this company works in?
Well, it's web development, but they go after all different sorts of companies.
And the one thing that, because you're not project management certified, I imagine that they're a little bit more interested in your business sense than your project management history.
Is that right? Yeah, I'd say so.
I mean, yeah, since I've run my own company, that's probably what they're looking at more than anything.
So my suggestion would be to spend a little bit of time.
I mean, you probably have, but I just sort of mentioned it as well.
Sure. If you can come in with one or two ideas that would be interesting to them from a business standpoint, I think that would really help seal the deal.
All right. So I'll sort of give you an example that I was...
I was up for a job where there was a company that looked towards hardware failure.
They had a software thing that sort of predict hardware failure and so on.
And when I went into the interview, you know, I could obviously answer some of the technical and software business standpoint questions, but I also said, you know, it would be interesting because you hold in your database, across your variety of customers, indications of future hardware requirements, right? So if some guy's got 10 hard disks that are going to fail, it might be interesting for you to be a bit more of a full-service shop.
In other words, to take a list of requirements, chop it around to a variety of hardware vendors and offer not just the predictions of failures, but a better deal than they could secure individually on hardware replacement, if that makes sense?
Yeah, yeah.
So, I mean, these are just ideas that you can come up with that are going to be interesting and give people the idea that you will be a valuable asset for them from a business standpoint, if that helps?
Yeah, actually, I did bring up the fact that I do have a good internet marketing background, and I said, you know, I noticed that you guys only do search engine optimization.
Do you do Google AdWords and e-newsletters?
And he said, yeah, kind of, not really involved in that.
And I'm like, well, I mean, I enjoy doing that.
I enjoy managing advertising campaigns and doing e-newsletters, so I could certainly bring that to the business as well.
So I've at least put that in there so far, but I... I can certainly come up with some more value.
Just from a hiring standpoint, and having hired lots of people over the course of my career, from a hiring standpoint, I think it's important to understand when you go in for a job interview that you're going to be a net loss to the company for at least the first three months.
Right. And just to be sensitive to that, right?
So whenever you hire someone, and it can be shorter, it can be longer, but let's just say on average, it's going to be until you get up to speed on their clients, on their projects, on their processes, until you map the personal, economic, and political map of the organization and so on.
You know, they're going to be investing money into you and there is a chance, not that you, but in general, there's a chance that employees just don't work out.
I mean, no matter how much you vet, I mean, you never know.
They may get hired and then their mother dies the next day and they just can't think and whatever, right?
It could be any number of reasons.
So if you understand that when you get into a company, you are digging a hole, you are eating into their finances for the first three months, whatever sense they can get that you're going to pay off for them in the long run, More than just the job, if you can sell a return on investment that is more significant than the next guy who's up for the job, then if the company is rational and have good business sense, you'll get the job.
And if they're not, you don't want the job, right?
Yep, right. So what I'm saying by that is that, yeah, you can organize these projects, you can get them done, and you can help them with some other stuff.
But the more that you can bring in interesting ideas, and they don't have to be like, you know, we're going to take this as a five-year marketing plan, but questions about how it is that they do things relative, some benchmarks from the industry as a whole, like if you come in and say, well, the average return on investment on these kinds of companies is X, you know, where are you guys at?
If they're above, you can ask them what you think the differences are.
If they're below, just say, do you have any idea what the deficiencies are?
Just so that you think strategically, Relative to where the company is relative to the industry benchmark.
The two things that does, the first thing is that it says that you know the industry, which is good, right?
The second thing is that if they're short of this kind of knowledge, and they may not be able to answer it, then of course you can say, well, one of the things that benchmarking relative to an average is a very good place to start.
Would you be interested in having that kind of information to be able to analyze the deficiencies?
That's a good thing. The other thing, of course, that you do is you actually raise the perception that you are looking around.
Because if you say, this is the industry standard.
Where are you guys relative to the industry standard?
Then they're actually competing with other people.
You sort of bring in the competition to other companies in a way, to their mind.
It's not manipulative because, I mean, obviously, if they're, you know, way below market return, then it may not be a company you want to work with.
And if they're way above but don't know why, that's sort of important in terms of they're still in entrepreneurial mode.
Right, right. So I think doing a little bit of...
Research into the industry as a whole.
For instance, if profits on average for web development companies have been declining for the past few years, I think it's important to know that information when you go in for the second round interview.
I think it's also important to, if you can pick up any kind of snapshot from the industry, and of course this is wonderful about the internet, that this stuff's out there, it's worth even paying a few bucks to report if you can't get one for free.
So if you say, well, you know, profits have been, and I think as far as I understand it, profits have been declining in web development companies for the past couple of years.
And if you can get, you know, well, typically it's because of X, Y, Z and, you know, ABC. And just say, you know, do any of these apply to you?
Have your profits been declining?
And of course, you know, they don't have to tell you.
You're still just a potential employee.
But it does give them a sense that you're coming in with not just a tactical but a strategic approach.
And just to briefly differentiate, a tactical is project management, you know, get stuff delivered on time.
Strategic is, where is the business going in a couple of years?
And it's all about short-term versus long-term thinking.
But if you can give them a sense that you're interested in strategic long-term thinking, the less negative the investment they're going to put into you is going to seem at the beginning, if that makes sense?
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, those would be the major sorts of issues.
Did you ask them...
Oh, they haven't had somebody before who was in the job who quit, right?
Because you say the CEO was doing this beforehand, right?
Yeah, he was doing it all beforehand, and I asked him about how he managed projects and what his methodology was, and he's like, yeah, it was pretty off the cuff.
I mean, I'd go, I'd sell the job, and then I'd come back to the programmers, and we'd work out issues as they came up, and obviously that's not working out too well for us, and the programmers have to spend extra hours here sometimes when we don't anticipate a client's need.
Do you have a sense of where the ambitions lie of this company?
Does the CEO want to build a monster company or is this something where he's content to build 10% a year or stay even?
Do you have any sense of where the level of ambition lies?
You know, I didn't get, you know, the sense I guess I get is they like their size as is.
He kind of likes that, the laid back level they're at right now with just a few employees and with the current, you know, business flow that they're getting.
I don't know. He did say, though, that he wanted a project manager so he could focus on the growth of the company.
So I'm assuming he wants to grow.
Well, see, now here's another thing.
These are all kind of, to me, interesting clues that people can bring in.
They're cues that can help you sell yourself to them.
So if somebody says, well, I prefer the laid-back pace of where we are, but I'm interested in growth, then if you can provide them some ways or some ways that they could help to understand, That you can help them to grow while actually reducing their stress.
What people associate with growth is, when we grow, stress just gets that much worse.
But if you can actually help them to understand that with the right planning and processes in place, growth can actually be less stressful.
And why? Because you don't add to the stress of each project, but the profit of each project gives you the money to hire additional resources so that you can grow.
So it actually can be less stressful to grow if you have the right processes in place.
Because at the moment, they may have a false dichotomy.
Well, we'd like to grow, but we don't want more stress.
But if you can help them to understand or give them the option that you can grow and have less stress, then that, of course, is a win-win.
And that's the kind of creative thinking that they may be very, very, well, I'm sure they would be very interested in, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah. And I also was going to present to him, because my old business partner who's working there as a programmer right now, he's said that he'd be willing to let me stay at his place for a couple weeks and do kind of a trial period kind of thing.
If in fact they want to bring me down there and hire me on, if presenting him with a trial period would be a good tactic.
Because I think for me it would be beneficial because then I could make sure the job is a good fit for me and I don't move all my positions to Atlanta and then end up in a job I don't like.
Have you thought or have they talked at all about the option of hiring you not as an employee but as a contractor?
No, we haven't talked about that.
Well, I mean there are obvious tax advantages to that which we don't have to get into since I'm sure you're perfectly aware of them.
Yep. There are some complications in terms of some of the paperwork, but it might be worth asking them not so much for you, but just say, do you hire people on an as-needed basis for contractual stuff, right? Just ask them that in general.
And you can phrase that in the way of...
Are any of your employees contractors?
What do you do when there's an overflow in terms of the work requirements?
Do you hire contractors?
What do you do, right? And if they say, well, we never hire contractors, then that's your answer or whatever, right?
And if they say, well, we'd be interested, but we don't know, and so on, that to me would be interesting as well.
And if they are interested, it's just something you could talk about.
Maybe we could do a couple of months as a contractor to see how the working relationship goes and so on.
It would be beneficial to you.
You can sell it to them because then, of course, there's no severance or any kind of legal complications if it doesn't work out.
It's easier for them in terms of paperwork if it doesn't work out.
They don't have to set you up with all the deductions and benefits and so on.
So you could certainly put that in as an option if you would be interested.
It's less complicated. There's a little bit more money for you up front, a little less paperwork for them, and you have the out, you know, it's like a starter marriage or something.
You could put that in as an option for sure.
But that can be like, I haven't decided whether it's the right place.
A lot of people want to feel that I'm dying to work for you.
But at the same time, you don't want to necessarily say that because it hampers some of the negotiation for salary.
Right, right. It's something worth exploring, I would say.
Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt. I have a couple more questions, but I didn't want to interrupt if you had something you wanted to mention there.
Oh, no, that was it on that.
Now, do you have a sense...
Because if you want to sell yourself as a project manager, the first thing that I would do is to look upon this job as a project.
Now, first thing a project manager is going to do is say, you know, what is my budget?
What is my scope of responsibility?
What options do I have when variables change?
The whole reason that we need project managers is because running a project is not like rolling a boulder down a hill, right?
Variables change all the time.
The boulder rolls uphill, it turns into a goose, gravity reverses itself.
So, in terms of...
Do I have responsibility for the budget?
So if I need additional labor, do I have the authority to go out and hire temporary workers, or whatever it is, assuming that it's justified in terms of profitability?
Am I responsible for the profit of a project, which is what I would prefer, or am I responsible for completing the job on time?
In other words, what mode are you in?
Are you in the provide additional benefits to clients so that we can grow mode?
In which case, expecting to be responsible for the profit of a project when scope creep is going to be allowed would not be a viable approach.
But being responsible for getting the project done on time regardless of profit would be another way of approaching it.
This can give you a sense of where they are in their business model.
So I would ask that.
How am I going to be judged?
Am I going to be judged like, no matter what we have to throw at it, it comes in on time and we're happy?
Is it solely profitability, in which case you're going to have to be a real hot-ass when it comes to scope creep?
What is their definition of success?
In other words, a year after you're hired, what would give you the greatest conceivable performance review, just so you get a sense of what their expectations are?
Does that make sense? Yeah, those are great questions.
I had kind of thought about that, but not to the extent that you just did.
Right, and so knowing what you're, like, are you going to have a budget that you can spend according to your discretion, or is it something, and none of these are right or wrong answers, it's just important to know what they are.
What is the scope of the project called your job as a project manager?
And if you take that approach, if you ask those qualifying questions up front, they will feel very comfortable that you like to have a good amount of structure and a good separation of responsibilities compared to other people.
I remember the job I had once, I came in and I said, who's in charge of the website?
And the CEO said, I guess you are, right?
And I'm like, okay, well, this has got to change, right?
So I started this whole project and I had some initial agreement, but then when the cost came in, people just said, well, no, it's not going to happen.
You know, we don't want this to fly.
We want you to work on something else.
And so I said, well, okay, so then I'm not responsible.
Like, if the website is my responsibility and I have a budget, then I should be able to spend it on the website.
If it's not, that's no problem, but I'm going to take the website off my list of things that I'm managing if that's not what I'm managing.
So it's just around those kinds of expectations, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah. And the other thing, too, is that they may not know what is going to give you the best performance review in a year.
Right? And that is just important to know.
And one of the things that I would do then is say, well, one of my first jobs here would be to define what success is in the job that I'm...
Right? You can't manage what you can't measure.
It's a fundamental thing when it comes to project management.
If you can't measure it, you can't manage it.
So the first thing that I would do coming into the job as a project manager, if there was no standard by which the success of that project management position could be achieved, is I would say, well, the first thing that I want to do is to define what success is for this project management position so that I know and you know if I'm being successful.
Because what we don't want, the worst thing would be, you pay me for a year, I run projects the way that I think they should be run or the way we agree they should be run, But at the end, some level or criterion of success has not been achieved.
That would be not good, right?
Because when you're aiming at something, you want to have a bullseye.
You don't want to just have a bunch of stuff.
Ooh, I shot an arrow into the woods.
I wonder if I hit anything, right?
You want to have a bullseye so that you can measure and recalibrate stuff every quarter or every six months or whenever the performance reviews occur.
Yeah, I mean, I've always been interested in the measurement of my success in businesses, and I keep track of every little detail.
And so, yeah, I think that's something that, you know, I have a self-interest in that.
I really want to come into this company and be able to measure how I'm doing.
Right. So, and my guess is if they've got a CEO who's just peeling himself off from project management, That this is not a company that has that kind of structure in place.
And that's totally fine, too.
Again, there's no right or wrong answers here.
But just saying that, you know, just as we have to have measurable criteria by which a project of mine is considered successful or not.
And that sounds clear-cut, but it's often not, right?
Sometimes you will eat losses in a project in order to gain goodwill within a client or a new industry that you're trying to get into or something like that.
So, for each project, you may have even varying criteria for success, but for the project management position itself, there needs to be a definition of what success is.
And it's nothing you impose, it's something that you negotiate with them, so that, you know, how do we know when we've arrived at our destination?
Well, we have to have a precise destination.
And if it turns out that's not where we want to be, we recalibrate and we move again.
But I think, if I understand the culture of this company to the small degree that I do, They're a seat-of-the-pants kind of group, right?
And so they're going to need some definitions of success and structure just so that they can...
And say that's how you grow with less stress, right?
Right, right. From personal experience, I know that.
Because I was kind of seat-of-the-pants for the first year.
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, and that's healthy, too.
You don't want the overhead of lots of structures when you find out whether the business has value to people.
Right. The last thing that I would say is project management can be a tricky position because it has some complications when it comes to hiring and firing.
Yeah, I was thinking about that.
This is a touchy subject to being up with people.
Like, do I get to fire people?
I mean, that's not necessarily where they want to go.
Right. But you just may want to ask them, To, you know, if there's a whiteboard in the room or, you know, go to a room with a whiteboard and say, you know, give me where this position fits in your organizational chart, right?
Do the programmers report to me like I'm their manager?
Or do the programmers report to someone else and I'm their project manager?
And if that is the case, how is that going to work?
Who's going to do their performance reviews, their manager or me?
You know, just those kinds of clarifying questions are really, really important to ask.
And again, they may have no answer, in which case you could say, well, My preference is that the people I project manage actually report to me.
And it seems odd that somebody else would do their performance reviews if they're actually reporting to me, and I'm the one who actually knows whether or not they're doing a good job or not, and so on.
So you can turn that into a working session, right?
To sort of say, well, here's where I would see a project manager maybe report to the CEO. There's some people who report to...
You just can work out where this thing might fit into the chain of command.
And if they don't know, they just say, well, this is all preliminary, but this is sort of where it might work, or where do you think it might work, and so on.
And that, again, it gives them the comfort that you're somebody who likes to come in and define structure, which is a lot of what project management is about.
I'll just pause here in case you had any other questions at this point.
Nope, no questions so far.
And how is this stuff in terms of usefulness?
Is this something that is helpful for you?
Extremely useful. I mean, I can't thank you enough.
I was, you know, a little nervous going into this tomorrow because, you know, he asked me to bring some questions for him tomorrow.
And, you know, I had some in mind, but, you know, this gives me everything I need to ask him.
Well, the other thing too, I don't know, have you guys talked salary at all?
A little bit.
I mean, he kind of asked me where I wanted to be, and I told him that I wanted to be above this level right now, and he said, oh yeah, that's fine.
So he was pretty quick to say...
I'm almost wondering if I undershot, because he was pretty quick to say, oh yeah, that's fine, I can pay you that.
Well, don't worry about that, because when you're at this level, the cash is just the beginning, right?
I mean, don't worry about that, right?
Because making a startup is not salary, right?
But the way that I've approached this kind of stuff when I've talked to startups is I've tried to put it in this context, and you can let me know what you think.
I say, I would like to earn...
Some aspect of ownership.
You can say to the person, as an entrepreneur myself, I know how motivating it is to have even a small slice of a bigger pie.
Whenever you frame ownership discussions with somebody, I think it's really important to make sure that they understand that you're not talking about taking any part of the company away from them.
Because, I mean, particularly the founders are particularly fierce around guarding this kind of stuff, right?
Oh, I'm sorry. For some reason you're cutting out.
Oh, is that right? Okay, so sorry.
Let me just make sure there's nothing else.
It's real choppy. I can't hear you anymore.
It's all just static. All right, we will.
Is that any better?
Testing, one, two, three. Is that any better?
Yeah, I can hear you now. Okay, good.
I don't know what that was. Because what you're really talking about here is a piece of the pie, right?
Whether it's 1% or 2% or 3% or whatever percentage of the company you can get a hold of, that would be, of course, a big incentive for you.
That would be something you would like, right?
Oh yeah, definitely. Right, so the way that I would approach this topic, because you never want to say, I want a piece of the company, right?
Because then what they do is they look at your learning curve and the amount that they have to invest to get you up to speed, and then they say, oh, it's that plus a chunk of the company, which looks like they're giving up some of the pie, and they want all the pie for themselves, right?
Right, right. So the way that I would approach that, and it's a delicate matter to approach, but you can do it in a nice way, which would be something like, if I can really help grow the pie, is there a way that I can earn myself a small slice?
Like, if everybody's getting a bigger pie, is there a way that I can earn myself into having a small slice of the pie?
And that reminds them that you're not going to be taking anything away from them, right?
I mean, people would rather have 50% of a $10 million company than 100% of a $1 million company, right?
So if you can help them grow, then the question you can ask them is, if I help your company grow, if I am a good return on investment as an employee, Can I earn my way into a small piece of ownership as the company grows?
And again, earn your way into is something that's really, really important as well.
And that is part of the discussion around what is success, right?
So if you hammer out success, and the way I would phrase it is say, If we say, if I achieve 20% profit on all my projects, that that is great success, then if I do achieve that, can I look, and obviously the company has grown because of that, is that considered enough to earn me a small slice of a bigger pie?
Got it, got it.
So, that gives you something to shoot for, and also, a lot of times, entrepreneurs want to keep stuff loosey-goosey, you know, like, hey, if I like you, I'll give you X, right?
And you can also say, if they try that kind of stuff, which I doubt they will, we say, well, look, I'm looking at a project manager, so I have to have objective measurements of success here.
So, what that means is that if I achieve X, Can I get, why?
So if I, you know, double the profitability of the projects, can I get a small slice either of that profit or of the company, right?
Because I'm an entrepreneur. I love that feeling.
I really get motivated from that.
So even a small, a tiny, a piece of the crumb of the crust is enough to sort of get me started.
But I would look to earn myself into some small aspect of ownership if I can help drive the growth of the company.
Right. Yeah. Because that's where your real goodies are going to come from in the long run.
It's not particularly your salary.
And of course, if you're not comfortable with the salary that you've asked for, just say, you know, in hindsight, I'm not comfortable with the salary that I've asked for.
I've done a little bit more research, come in with an industry average, so I'd like to talk about a different sum.
I did look... Do your research and stuff.
Sorry? Yeah, I actually did research the industry average for us.
A project manager that's starting off in a web development firm of this size.
And it was close to what I said, so it wasn't too far off.
Well, that's good. I mean, there is a certain kind of buyer's remorse that always happens when you negotiate salary.
In fact, if you don't feel a little bit disappointed with the salary you finally get, then that's not a good company to work for.
Why do you say that? Well, because if you ask for, you know, a billion dollars, right, and they're like, sure, then they're lunatics, right?
Oh, okay, I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right, so you want them to negotiate to where you're just a little bit dissatisfied.
Because if they give you everything that they want, then that means they give everything the clients want, everything the programmers want, which means it's going to be really hard to turn a profit, right?
Yeah, yeah. So you want to walk out of that room Happy, but spitting out a tiny bit of bitterness.
That indicates that they have good business sense, right?
Because you want to lower salaries with two-year employees to the point where they're just slightly dissatisfied.
Not like, oh man, I can't live on this.
And not like, woohoo, I hit the jackpot, right?
Because both of those indicate poor business judgment.
But just a little hungry.
You know, just a little like, a little bit more would be great.
Because that's going to keep you motivated.
Right, right. So, those are the major, I mean, there's a lot for you to do between now and tomorrow, and I don't want to sort of give you 12 million things, but those are the major approaches that I would take to this kind of situation.
Is that, I mean, is there anything missing for that for you?
Do you think that's enough for you to take a swing at it?
Oh, yeah. I think that's plenty, and, you know, as always, highly appreciate it, and I'll keep you updated on how it goes.
Well, fantastic. I really do appreciate that.
And do you mind me spitting this out to the Great Wide Web?
Maybe after tomorrow.
You bet, absolutely. Just give me a shout and let me know.
Okay, great. Thanks, man.
Best of luck to you and fantastic congratulations.
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