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April 1, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:20:27
1028 Greg and the Dating... Part 1?
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Hey, how's it going? Not too bad.
Excellent, excellent. Okay, so I'd like to just start with a wee speech to put a bit of framework in and then we can dive in and see if we can come up with anything useful.
All right. Now, the one thing that for me was one of the hardest things to overcome about my own history Was the problem of self-indulgence for me, right?
And so, for instance, self-indulgence for me was, I get angry, so I just get angry, you know, or I feel depressed, and so I sort of take everyone down with me, or that kind of stuff, you know, where you have an emotional reaction, and because we didn't receive any real or significant empathy, and you're recording this, by the way, just to...
Yes, I am.
Any significant empathy when we were children, we were never taught how to manage emotion, our own emotions, right?
And of course, we had the template or the example of everyone around us who just, you know, wildly projected and acted out And so we don't have a template that allows us to work with our feelings in a positive way.
In other words, our feelings overwhelm us, and then we kind of act out.
And there's a kind of self-indulgence in that, or at least I can say that there was a self-indulgence in that for me, and Lord knows it's not entirely gone and probably never will be.
But I sort of wanted to focus on that aspect of things, just for when we start.
And when I talk about self-indulgence, I mean allowing the emotions to overpower and obscure the goal, if that makes sense.
I think I follow you on that, but can you give me an example of what that would look like?
Well, sure. I mean, if I'm angry at someone, then I need to find a way of communicating that in a way that is not destructive and so on, even though I may feel that, right?
I have to sort of find a way through to something that is more assertive than abusive, if that makes sense, or hopefully not abusive at all.
And if I were to act out the anger, there's a kind of cost-benefit calculation that has to do, for me, with overcoming self-indulgence.
So I say, "Okay, well I get mad at this person, but what effect is that going to have on this sort of Free Domain Radio project as a whole?" and all that kind of stuff, right?
So it doesn't mean repressing your feelings, but it means reasoning with your feelings, right?
Not just allowing them to spill over and obscure your larger goal or purpose, if that makes sense.
Right, right, right.
Okay, that makes sense.
Now, with that in mind, can you read the post that you put in about your therapist's question?
Surely.
Let me pull it up here.
Your therapist asked the question, what do you have to offer somebody?
And this was in a specifically romantic relationship context, right?
Yes. Yes, it was.
Right. A question which in and of itself is not an unreasonable question, right?
No, certainly not.
Certainly not. And it's, of course, all part of what I've been trying to work through.
Sure, absolutely. Absolutely.
And you have not found much satisfaction in the exploration of this question, right?
I mean, you had what I would consider an unsatisfying interaction on the board last night, and I don't think that you've gotten back the kind of reaction that you would like to from your posts on the board, right?
Or that would be considered helpful or fruitful?
That's true. Right, so the question is why, right?
So we can sort of look into that if we have a look at the post.
Right, and I'm ready to read it now.
Sure, go for it. Okay, so my therapist asked me to make a list of all the things that I might have to offer to a woman in a dating situation or in a relationship situation.
I find myself bristling at the question for two reasons.
One, aside from basic virtues, which pretty much everyone possesses to some degree or another, I can't think of anything in particular that would differentiate me from the rest of humanity, but that also would be appealing.
Extreme skepticism of God's state and family, for example, is not exactly a selling point in this society.
Beyond that, the only thing left is material, and I really don't much care about the material.
Stable career, physical beauty, sexual prowess, etc.
And two, even if I did have something to sell, I feel a strong wave of resentment whenever I consider the idea of having to sell it.
The thought that runs through my mind is I really don't feel like running around with a list begging people to like me because of what's on it.
If someone's interested in who I am, they'll ask.
If not, then so be it.
Nobody owes me anything, and I damn sure don't owe anyone anything either.
Why I'm bringing this up here is because I'm not looking for people to pat me on the head and tell me all the great things about me that I'm just not seeing myself.
That would be pretty self-serving and narcissistic.
Instead, what I'm looking for is an explanation for why my reaction to this question is incorrect.
Because if it is correct, then I see no reason to continue to pursue this project anymore.
Any suggestions?
And when you read this over, what do you think of it?
What do I think of it?
I mean, do you think that you captured what it is that you wanted to capture in terms of your real question or questions?
Well, the answer to that is no, but I don't know.
That's more of a feeling than an analysis.
Sure, sure.
Okay, but what's the feeling?
I guess this is going to sound kind of ridiculous, but...
I wanted to...
I wanted to ask for help, but I didn't know what sort of help or why.
Okay, and when you read this again, what sort of help do you think that you're asking for in this post?
Well, in this post, I guess just asking for how to answer my therapist's question... I guess just asking for how to answer my therapist's
All right, because what I see is you feel angry because your therapist asks you, and then you say, apart from the basic virtues, I can't think of anything in particular that would differentiate me from the rest of humanity.
In other words, and that would also be appealing, right?
Right. So you're saying, well...
My philosophy is a negative, right?
I don't have the shallow stuff.
High income, stable career, blah blah blah, right?
Right. So, who I am is unappealing and I don't have the shallow stuff, right?
And that I don't feel like running around with a list begging people to like me because of it.
Nobody owes me a damn thing and I damn sure don't know anything either, right?
Right. So, that's a trap, right?
I mean, that much we can understand.
A trap. Yeah, it's a trap, because tell me how somebody could conceivably answer this question.
Are they going to tell you that skepticism of God's state and society and so on is highly appealing to the majority of people in the world?
Of course not, right? Right.
Are they going to say that you have high income and a stable career?
Good God, no, right? Are they going to say that you should beg people to like you because of a list of your supposed virtues which you've already defined as unappealing?
Of course not, right? And then you say, and don't praise me, right?
And then you say, and don't praise me, right?
So I have a negative.
I have stuff that nobody wants.
I don't have the stuff that people do want.
and don't praise me.
Well, I guess with the last part, I was just trying to avoid...
But you see, there's no way to answer this.
There's no way to answer this post, right?
You've set it up so that there's just no possible way, right?
Because if people say, oh, Greg, you have all these great virtues, then you can say, well, they're not great virtues to the majority of people, as I already said, right?
Right. Or you can say, I asked you not to praise me because I'm not looking for praise here, right?
So they can't praise you, and they can't say that what you have is appealing to people, because you've already defined it as not appealing to people.
So what logical response could they have?
I mean, I'm happy.
Maybe I missed one, right? But...
No, that's a fair assessment.
Right, right, right.
So this means when you create traps for other people, it's because you're unconsciously experiencing a trap yourself, right?
Because this is designed to put other people in an impossible situation.
I don't mean consciously, right?
Yeah, I guess that would be the case.
And, of course, the irony is that you're saying that the virtues that you practice are unappealing to everyone, right?
Well, if they weren't, this show would be a lot more popular, wouldn't it?
Well, this show is wildly popular.
I mean, it's one of the only podcasts on the planet that makes a reasonable income.
That's true. Right?
I mean, this show has come out of nowhere to significantly alter thousands and thousands of people's lives, right?
That's true. And it's young, right?
I mean, I've been working at it full-time for a year, right?
Yeah, that's also true.
And I'm married.
Right. Right, so you're posting on a forum that only exists because people love virtue, truth, and philosophy, saying nobody loves virtue, truth, and philosophy.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Right, so it's not empirical, right?
This is entirely coming from a knotted-up place in you, which I understand, and which you and I have talked about before, but it's not empirical, and it's a trap, right?
Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.
And of course, if people are undecided, About the value of the conversation that we're pursuing here.
how do you think that they will experience a post like this?
That I'm...
Probably pretty negative.
of.
Well, is there a part that's positive?
I mean, when you say pretty negative, I assume that that's a mixture.
No, that's true, it's...
There's not really anything in here that is positive.
And that's sort of what I mean by, and I don't find you to be this way as a whole, right?
So this is just a particular area.
This is just a localized concern.
But this is what I mean when I talk about the problem of self-indulgence, right?
That you're just wallowing in your negativity and your cynicism and acting out your fear in a way that causes frustration and despair in others, right?
To me, that's entirely self-indulgent.
And this is the dark side of the victim, and you were genuinely a victim growing up, right?
But this is the dark side of the victim, which is we know how to victimize others, right?
Oh, so you're saying that this post was... kind of an attack.
Thank you.
Oh, sure, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, as a trap and as a highly negative and irrational characterization of the problems that we all face, it's exploitive and destructive, in my opinion.
It's just my opinion. I can't prove any of this, right?
It's just my thought about it.
Sure. And that's what I mean by self-indulgent, right?
And the self-indulgent part that we all have is the part that doesn't think to say, how is someone else going to experience what I'm doing?
Right? But we just kind of blurb it out there, right?
Because we're upset. Yeah, I guess I could see that.
I mean, I didn't exactly...
Well...
Because this is really angry, right?
Well, yeah, there's definitely anger in it, for sure.
Can you tell me the part that's not?
Well, um...
I mean, just writing it, I wasn't feeling angry.
I was feeling more anxious, but...
But I see what you're saying.
Other people would perceive it as angry.
So you didn't feel angry when you were writing this?
No, I felt more anxious than angry.
Like, I don't recall feeling angry writing it.
So when you say, nobody owes me a damn thing, and I damn sure don't owe anyone anything either, that came out of anxiety?
Oh, that's a good point.
I really don't feel like running around with a list begging people to like me because of it.
If someone's interested in who I am, they'll ask.
If not, then so be it.
Yeah, that's a good point.
It doesn't seem like anxiety to me.
Just, you know, again, I wasn't in your head, but that doesn't seem like anxiety to me.
That's a very good point.
No, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
And also even the quote, right?
What I have to quote offer, right?
So if somebody says, well, what do you have to bring to bear to a romantic relationship?
And it makes you enraged, which I think it did, right?
Acting out that rage and causing frustration and confusion and despair in other people is, in my opinion, self-indulgent.
We've spent a lot of time focusing on how we were victimized, and I think rightly and justly so, but it's also, I think, very important to focus, as I have with some individuals, on how we victimize other people.
Yeah.
You weren't posting this because you wanted a response, because no real response is possible.
Why are you just venting, right?
This is not an honest question.
Or an honest series of questions.
That's true. That's true.
So, the first thing that I would suggest as you pursue this program is to try and have a look at the possibility of the issues around self-indulgence, around letting your temper run away with you and that sort around letting your temper run away with you and that sort of Okay.
I mean, I don't want to be unfair.
I mean, I'm totally happy if this is a completely nonsense explanation.
That was just sort of my thought about it.
Well, I'm just trying to understand how I would do that.
Sure, and I think it's because you don't have any options that this becomes a default position, right?
It's not like you're picking and choosing from a bunch of different options and then you say, hey, I'm going to do the cynical bitter one, right?
Right, right, that's true.
Right. So, what got you so angry?
When your therapist says, what do you have to offer a woman?
Hmm.
As we know, there's a thought that precedes the feeling, right?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Right. Right, I'm just thinking back.
Um...
What got me so angry?
Well, and it's interesting too, because when she first asked the question, I didn't really...
I didn't really get angry at it.
It wasn't until after I was...
Because that was near the end of the session.
It wasn't until a day or two later when I started trying to make some notes about it that I really started getting angry about it.
Well, what happens, because I think that this running around with the list thing, begging people to like you because of what's on that list, I think that the phrase begging people to like you is significant, right?
These things don't just pop out of nowhere, right?
Yeah, that's pretty loaded language.
It's very loaded language, right?
Yeah. So, what I get from that is that subjugating yourself to someone else's approval feels like an act of humiliating self-destruction.
Yeah, that...
Who are you to judge me?
You're going to use your judgment of me to control me and manipulate me and humiliate me and degrade me, right?
Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
The moment that I depend on somebody else's good opinion of me, they're going to fuck me with it, right?
Yeah. Well, I don't want to go too strongly, I mean, but that's sort of the sense that I get.
I mean, if it's not right, we can modify the language.
No, that's about accurate.
And, um... You know, and, um...
Why should I depend on other people's opinions of me anyway, right?
Well, but that's a reaction.
Sorry, that bit is a reaction to it.
Right. When you say, well, why should I do this, right?
It's because you already feel that it's a negative thing to do, right?
Right. Like I don't say, well, why should I do another podcast?
It's like, because I enjoy them, right?
Sure. Why should I eat a plate of pie?
Well, the pie is good, right?
Right, right.
So, when you see yourself in a situation where you hand power to someone else, to a woman, right, that arouses in you an extraordinary amount of anger and fear, right? Yeah, it does.
And when I say extraordinary, I don't mean unusual.
I just mean extraordinary based on extraordinary provocations.
In the past, right?
Extraordinary provocations in the past.
Yeah, well, I mean, just to go back to your family, right?
I mean, did anyone have a genuinely good opinion of you in your family in the past?
Well, I wouldn't say genuinely, but...
It wasn't like it was consistently negative.
Well, but it was only positive when you were pleasing, right?
Right. I mean, it was never positive when you were inconvenient, right?
Exactly. That's true.
You can see with the conversations that I have, and also the conversations that you have with people, that people find me enormously valuable when I'm the most inconvenient to them, so to speak, right?
Yeah. Right? When I push them to the null zone, to the blank spot where they're not allowed to process, right?
Right. Right. That's true.
That's true. So, for you...
Since you were raised by corrupt and evil people and had, shall we say, for the sake of argument when you were a child and a teenager and in your 20s and early 30s, corrupt and evil siblings...
then for you, gaining approval, gaining the approval of those around you, is the opposite of being virtuous, right?
Oh, I see where you're going with that.
Yeah. Sorry, you got a clicky kind of thing, a noise that's going on?
Can you hear that? Sorry. Yeah, sorry about that.
Nervous habit.
I see where you're going with that.
Take it away. That's what it was in the past, and so I think that it's going to be like that in the future, too. To seek the approval of others now would be the same thing.
Right. Right, so the question goes through the Foo translator, right?
What do you have to offer a woman, translates to, how can you best appease evil people and destroy yourself?
Right. Right, that makes sense.
But the question I have is how is that not the case?
You mean in the future?
Yeah, given that most people are like that now, still, already anyway.
Sorry, what do you mean by most people?
You mean like most people are the same as your family?
Yeah. Oh, no.
No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.
No. No, no, on a number of levels.
First of all, your family is pretty far out there, even as far as families go, even based on the average.
I mean, your family is pretty brutal, and your mother's a severe, over-medicated hypochondriac, right?
I mean, your family's, like, fairly far off the bell curve, even by contemporary standards.
Even by medieval standards, I would say, right?
So that's the first thing that I would say, that you don't want to look through that lens and think that you're looking at a clear-eyed view of the world.
And the second thing, of course, is that you will never ever meet anybody like your family again because you are no longer a child.
That's true. You're completely independent.
You don't need people to survive.
You would, I'm sure, sail through life relatively content without pursuing this at all.
In fact, sometimes it would seem like quite the opposite to pursue it.
But you will never, ever meet anybody like your family again.
Right. By the time you get old and decrepit, they'll all be dead, right?
That's true. So you'll never be under their power again, right?
Ever. That's true.
Right, so thinking that, looking at your, that the world is like your family, is the viewpoint of an enslaved and entrapped child, right?
Well... How do you distinguish, then, between the false overgeneralization,
or the normalization, and the actual state of the actual world, which is pretty corrupt?
Right? Well, but, I mean, that's like saying I've been in prison for ten years, and when I get out, everybody's a prison guard, right?
Well, you're not in prison anymore, right?
So it's unjust to call everyone a prison guard.
That doesn't mean that everybody's the exact opposite of a prison guard, but when fundamental material circumstances have changed, you can't impose the old relationship on the new one, right?
I mean, not reasonably or justly, right?
Yeah, that makes sense.
And the variable that has changed in the equation is not your parents, but your adulthood, right?
Your independence. That makes sense.
Because you have no control over your relationship with your parents, no possibility of independence, no possibility of chosen relations, right?
With your parents, with your extended family, with your school, with your church, with your siblings.
That's quite true.
Now you have complete and free choice, right?
Yes. Complete and free independence with regards to your childhood, right?
Well, my childhood's over, so...
Well, but I mean, I don't mean like complete and free independence would be encapistan, but what I mean is relative to the power that your parents had over you, you have complete and free independence, right?
Right, right, right, right. So that is a massive change in a variable, right?
It's like if you were in prison for 10 years and they said you have to make license plates, and then you came out and said, well, the only job I can do is making license plates, what would someone say to you?
Well, I would assume they would say they only make those in prison.
Yeah.
Yeah, or, you know, if it was like folding laundry or whatever, right?
They'd say, you don't have to do that now because you're not in prison, right?
Oh, right, right, right. You can choose to do that if you want, and there obviously will be a certain amount of familiarity in it.
But you don't have to.
I mean, you had to do the laundry, fold the laundry when you were in prison, but now that you're out of prison, a pretty significant variable has changed, which is now you can choose any career you want.
Well, I mean, within the limits of reason.
What do you mean? I've been in prison for 30 years, and however old I am...
I didn't say 30 years, though, did I? I mean, you can change the metaphor for sure, right?
But that's just...
Right. However long, right?
Whatever. Some careers are going to be kind of impossible to achieve at that point, right?
And do you think that the nitpicking over semantics is a good way to move forward?
No, that's true. Right, because you're trying to be annoying, right?
I mean, whether it's 10 or 11 years, whether it's license plates or folding laundry, it's not the essence, right?
You're stalling, right? Right, the essence of the metaphor being the imposition is gone.
Yeah, that your liberty has been secured.
And your options are now wide open.
I mean, relative to prison, right?
That doesn't mean that you can be an underwear model.
It doesn't mean whatever, right?
But relative to prison, your options are wide open, right?
Gotcha. As wide open as they could be after you get out of prison.
And infinitely more wide open than you were in prison, right?
Yes. Yes, that makes sense.
So... That's the variable that has changed, right?
So if you look at the world like everyone's a prison guard, when you're actually out of prison, guess what?
You're not actually out of prison, right?
Right. Because you will still have the same emotional reactions.
And, of course, what will happen is you will only end up inviting prison guards into your life.
Right?
Or not.
Or not?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Oh, you mean if you're afraid that everyone's a prison guard, then you will just live alone, right?
Right. Right, right.
No, I understand. That certainly is a possibility, though I would not call that freedom, right?
That's just solitary confinement rather than general quarters, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Right.
Right, but that's still not out of prison, right?
No, because it's just...
It may be out, but it's just behaving as if I was in.
Right, and it excludes the possibility that you can benefit hugely from the approval of good people to exactly the same degree that you were harmed by needing the approval of bad people.
Well, that's an interesting point.
That's an interesting point.
So what...
Well, I guess that question's already kind of answered.
Now, what's the benefit of...
Of course I know what the benefit is.
Well, what is the benefit? Well, friendship, right?
Okay, but that's just another way of saying benefit.
What is the benefit? Well, the ultimate benefit is happiness, right?
Well, yes, but how is it that the good opinion of good people can help achieve and maintain happiness for you?
That's a good question.
Since...
Since I can't Well, I mean, conceivably I could, but since I can't sort of manufacture everything I want or need for myself,
myself, then having good people around who have access to those things sort of makes that possible, right? I don't know what that means.
Can you give me a practical example?
Right, so...
If I couldn't...
I mean...
I need to eat every day, right?
So I have to be able to get into a grocery store as long as I haven't...
What on earth does that have to do with virtuous people?
I mean, your grocery store guy could be a church-going child molester for all you know, right?
Right, but the point I'm making is that we need things from other people, right? In order to achieve our own happiness.
Well, no, you could go through life without getting involved in a romantic relationship, right?
That's true. Because the real question that we're talking about here, your therapist basically said, what do you have to offer other people?
But that's not the real question, right?
For you. What do you mean?
Well, the real question that we're stalling here on, which I think is productive, right?
Is not, what do you, Greg, have to offer other people?
But what? But what they have to offer me.
Right. Right. You can't think of something, I mean, not off the top of your head, right?
But you can't think of something that people have to offer you, right?
So obviously, if people don't have something to offer you, but you feel like you have to give something to them, or have something to offer them, that's humiliating, right?
Right. Oh, I see what you're saying.
It's like paying to have a job where you just stand around.
That's humiliating, right? That's a good point.
So maybe that's where the anger is coming from.
Well, yeah.
I mean, obviously it was not the question at hand, right?
But you're saying, well, look, if other people don't have shit to offer me, why should I run around trying to get their approval?
What's in it for me? Well, of course, that is a child with corrupt parents, right?
What's in it for you is a roof over your head, Sonny.
Food to eat and maybe a little less weapon, right?
Yeah. It's all negative economics, right?
Yeah, that is exactly right.
Right. That's exactly right.
That's why I love that song, Can Anybody Find Me Somebody to Love, right?
Not somebody to love me, but somebody I can love.
It's the reversal that I think is so clever in that song, myself.
Because normally people are saying, I want somebody to love me, right?
Right. But it's no, like, I want somebody that I can love.
I want somebody who's beneficial enough in my life that I'm drawn to them, right?
Like a plant to sunlight.
Right, right. That's exactly right.
Right. But of course, if nobody has anything to offer you...
Why the hell would you want to go around begging for the approval of indifferent people who have nothing to offer you?
How humiliating would that be, right?
Yeah, that's pretty damned humiliating.
That's shitty! It's one of the reasons why I've been so...
Now that I think about it, it's one of the reasons why I've had so much trouble with these group outings.
Right. It's why you have trouble with group outings.
It's why you have trouble...
You mean the hiking and stuff like that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's like, God Almighty, give me somebody that I can respect and admire.
Please, dear God above.
I never feel very enthusiastic about it.
Right. So you go through it like a rote mechanical exercise, and thus it just confirms your thesis, right?
Yeah. Right, that people don't have shit to offer me.
So I'm not going to run around begging for them to like me when they don't even have anything I want.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It's like saying to the vegetarian, what can you offer the butcher?
It's like, fuck that. What can the butcher offer me?
Nothing. Right.
Right, so that leaves me with kind of a problem.
Well, that's okay. We started out with kind of a problem, so at least we're not moving backwards.
Right.
Well, I mean, my initial reaction to that, to thinking about that, is that maybe I was right in the first place.
You mean that people don't have stuff to offer you, women in particular, blah, blah, blah?
Right. But this is what I'm talking about when I talk about self-indulgence.
Okay.
You have empirical evidence to the contrary.
It's not up to you, and it's not up to me.
You can't just make this shit up and think that it's true.
It's kind of what we say to people about ethics and God and the virtue of the government.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
You've got to look for the evidence and you've got to reason through it.
But in this area, you're like some gassed up Rastafarian.
You just make shit up and it's like, well, that feels true, so it's true, right?
Yeah, pretty much.
So you're posting on a board that's only made possible because this guy's wife loves him so much, saying women can never provide anything of value, right?
Well, not in general, but just to myself.
Right. There's this book out there.
What's it called? UPB. Right, which says that when you talk about values, you can't create individual exceptions, right?
Right. But here, you have no problem with it, right?
And here's how we can understand the statist and the religious person, right?
Yeah, that's a huge disconnect, isn't it?
Well, sure. So, women can provide enormous, fantastic, wonderful value, which you experienced the times that you've come up here, right?
That's true. I mean, I'll post one day pictures of where I was living before I got married.
A refrigerator box would have been an upgrade, right?
Right, so there's a beautifully organized house, there's, you know, great conversation, there's food on the table, there's, you know, a humming and positive woman in the house and who, you know, is really affectionate and positive and wants to make people feel comfortable and is happy and so on, right? I mean, that's a massive plus over and above everything else that she's done for this conversation, right?
The Oscar therapist, the You know, encouraging me to pursue this dream, being the financial bedrock that has allowed me to do it with more risk than I would have otherwise taken, and all that kind of stuff, right?
Right. Now, of course, it's no more than I've given to her, right?
I mean, I was the financial bedrock when she wanted to go quit her job and pursue her dream of being an independent clinician.
So, yeah.
So, I mean... It's no more than we do for each other.
It's not like I'm ripping her off.
I know some people sort of get confused about that kind of stuff, but it's nothing like that, right?
But it certainly does have, it is reciprocal and it is mutually positive, right?
Not to mention all of the great advice that she gives me in terms of conflict and so on.
It's hard to, you know, particularly in conflicts that occur on the board or through emails or whatever, right?
Because I have that objective, I think, objective opinion, which has proven to be great.
I have somebody who can give me feedback on the things that I can't see myself, right?
Right, right. No, all of that is true.
Right, so it is certainly possible that a romantic relationship can lead to a vast increase in happiness.
And of course, the only significant value that I'm bringing to this conversation in terms of the changes that people can make in their life is the connection between the state and the family, right?
That is one of the big differentiators and that came from Christina's probing questions, right?
That's a good point. So, this is all built to, you know, at least half a degree on her.
And that's what I mean when I say that you're posting on a board that only exists because of the generosity of a woman, right?
That's a good point, yes.
And because you visited, right, you know, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I don't think that you...
Sorry, go ahead. No, I'm just saying that's all true.
That's all true.
Now, I can guarantee you that if I had thought that women had nothing to offer me, I would not be married to this woman.
Because.
Well, because you just wouldn't have bothered, right?
Yeah, or I may have bothered and I would have said, well, you know, the only thing that women have to offer is sex and food, you know, and shit like that.
Whatever, right? But I would have automatically downgraded what she would have to offer me, and therefore I would automatically have downgraded my generosity to her, right?
Right, if somebody's going to give you a tomato that they've spat on, you're not going to pay very much for it, right?
Right. It's, you know, one of these things where you, you know, in Windows, like you move one slidey thing up and down, the other one moves up and down simultaneously.
Well, generosity is that too, right?
If I don't think that anybody has anything to offer me, I don't tend to be very generous with them, right?
That's an excellent point.
That's a very good point. So she would have recognized my stinginess, and she was more generous than I was when we first started going out, as I've mentioned before.
So she would have recognized my stinginess and my downgrading of what she had to offer me, and she would have felt offended because she would have thought, well, I have an enormous amount to offer.
I know that. And this guy doesn't think I have anything to offer, or doesn't think I have that much to offer.
So he's kind of stingy, and it just wouldn't have worked out, right?
She said, I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to prove my value to someone.
Right. The exact reverse scenario.
Of yours, right? Yeah.
Right. When you say, well, I don't want to run around trying to get other people to like me just because of some list, right?
What you're basically saying is other people better run around trying to prove their value to me with some list, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.
But a secure person would never do that, right?
Any more than you want to do it, right?
Right, right.
Expecting them to do that is sort of re-inflicting the humiliation on them.
Right, and that's what I mean when I say if you believe everyone is a prison guard, you'll only end up alone, as you say, or with prison guards, right?
Right, or becoming one.
Yeah, or becoming one, which I don't think is your thing, but...
No, no, no.
But if you were to sort of understand, and this is breaking the patterns, breaking the cycle, right?
If you were to understand that your life could be immeasurably enriched through romantic love, immeasurably enriched through romantic love, then you would be looking for somebody you could be generous towards.
Right, and how do you do that?
Well, you're jumping over, right?
Right, which is you're saying, okay, assuming that I've processed all of this emotionally, what next?
I see what you're saying. How about we work on processing it emotionally first, right?
Yeah, good point.
Good point. It's like, assuming I had a car, where would you like to drive to?
It's like, well, why don't we get a car?
And then we can decide, right? Right.
Car? What's a car? Right.
I don't know if it's a Prius or a station wagon or a Ferrari or, you know, I don't know.
It depends where we go, right? Right.
Right. Because there's nothing missing for you yet, right?
And this is the challenge that...
I only know this part because this is the challenge that...
That philosophy as a whole faces, right?
Which is that, what are we selling to people?
Well, it's a short-term shitstorm, right?
So far. It's like, hey, are you missing a shitstorm in your life?
Come to Freedom Aid Radio and crank up the fan, right?
Do you feel happy and secure if a little numb in your relationships?
Well, you can blow up this California fault with FDR, patented depth charges, right?
But it's like, what are we selling?
Well, people don't know that they don't know.
People don't know the happiness that they're missing, and they think that the pursuit of material things and the slow depression that most people face over life is life, right?
They don't know any more than a guy who lives to 90 thinks he's living a long life unless he hears everyone else is living to 300, right?
Right. Right.
So what the hell are we selling if people don't feel any discontent or shortage with where they are?
And that's part of the relentless positivity and happiness that I try to bring to bear is to say, yeah, you can be this happy, right?
Teeth grittingly, annoyingly happy to people, right?
And to yourself, right?
So if for you, if there's no gap to correct, right?
I mean, you can't go to the 90-pound guy and say, would you like to buy a diet book?
Right.
Unless it's like an increase your weight diet book or something.
But you know what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, if for you there's nothing that is going to be positive on the other side of going through this process, of course you're going to be like, well, fuck, I can't see any point in doing this, right?
Yeah. It's like going up to me and saying, well, Steph, you see, if you train for two years, you could never make the Olympic ski team, right?
And I've had conversations like this with my therapist, too, and they never seem to come out in any kind of satisfactory way.
Well, how's this one working for you?
Well, we're up to that point now, so let's see what happens.
Let's see what happens.
Let me ask you this.
You've sort of shown me your own life as an example, and why is it that I don't, in your mind, why is it that I don't see the gap between myself and your example?
Well, you do see the gap, though.
That's where the anger comes from.
Well, now you're confusing me.
Well, when I was younger and I went to theatre school and I was interested in being an actor or wanted, I thought that was going to be my thing, to be an actor.
When I left theatre school, before graduating, because I just found it to be a really toxic environment and unpleasant, for some years afterwards, I would follow the careers of the people I was in school with, with burning jealousy and rage, right?
That's an exaggeration, but I would flip through and I would see, oh my god, this guy's on a TV show, right?
He was one of the actors who was really good, ended up on a TV show in the US, and One of the girls that I went to McGill with who my girlfriend directed in a play ended up starring in Boston Commons and she's on Prison Break and she's on Nip Tuck and so on, right? So you look at these people and because I had a desire for that, when I saw them achieving it, I felt stress, right?
Anger, frustration, humiliation, right?
Sure, sure, that makes sense.
Whereas now, it's like, hey, more power to you, right?
Right. I'm doing something far more valuable than even being, in my view, than even being the biggest movie star in the world, right?
Right. I mean, a hundred years ago, sorry, a hundred years from now, frankly, who's going to give a shit about Brad Pitt?
But I hope to still be relevant right now.
Right, right, right.
Or some secondary part on Prison Break.
Right, which is, I mean, the most that I could have hoped for, right?
Not looking even remotely like Brad Pitt, right?
So all of that reality, the stress only comes from the desire, right?
I don't look at some...
Romanian gymnasts and say, God, I burn with envy for that, right?
I can't even touch my toes.
And I'm 40. Right?
That's not a thing for me, right?
Right, right. However, I will sometimes look at public intellectuals, you know, and feel a twinge, so to speak, right?
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
So, for sure, you see the gap and you have the desire, right?
Well, what I mean is, because just a few minutes ago you said that I don't see the...
Consciously.
Consciously you don't see it. Unconsciously you do.
Oh. Oh, okay.
So... Then I'm getting angry and posting these posts because subconsciously I see the gap.
But what I'm asking is why...
Where's the disconnect?
What do you mean?
You mean why is it unconscious?
Well, yeah.
I mean, I've argued with my therapist a couple times Not argued, but talked about this sort of, you know, I'm on one side of a minefield and I can't really see anything on the other side of the minefield and there's some drill sergeant yelling at me to run across the minefield and I'm like, uh, why?
You know? Well, the reason is that there's no way away from the minefield for you, right?
I mean, to use your...
I don't think the metaphor is hugely great, but Lord knows I have my share of duds, but let's take it for what it is, right?
Right. Which is that this is an issue that you can't leave alone.
It is a volcanic issue for you, right?
Yeah. You're the sergeant, right?
Yeah. That's true.
I mean, you're not just helpless here and it's like, I'd like to go somewhere else, right?
You're the sergeant and you're the minefield, right?
And you're the pot that's throwing sand in your eyes so you can't see what's on the other side of the minefield, right?
Well, that's an interesting point.
Then who's in the ditch?
Thank you.
Well, you're in the ditch too, right?
It's an ecosystem, right?
Right, right, right.
Right, so I mean, this is just around self-honesty, right?
I really want this thing.
I can see how enormously beneficial it can be, right?
Not having this thing is part of my core narrative, right?
What do you mean? The core narrative of, you know, not being good enough or, you know, being broken or, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
Oh, um...
Oh, that's interesting, because...
Yeah, that's kind of...
That was kind of the content of the post.
Yeah, I mean, you veer between I'm fucked up and the world's fucked up, right?
Yeah. It's a nice set of train stops to shuttle between, but maybe we can get off the tracks, right?
Take off on foot. It's the train to nowhere, right?
Yeah, that's a good point.
Right, and your core, you know, the core belief of a lack of value or whatever, or the value that you have is hated by other people and so on.
And I know these, right?
I mean, I have to wrestle with these as well, so.
But that's all stuff that we were just told about, right?
Right.
And that's the inoculation that the world has against people like us, right?
Right.
Because the, well, the value that whatever value I do have, Was hated. Sure.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Again, as I said at the beginning, extraordinary provocation, right, results in extraordinary defenses, and those are perfectly valid and healthy when you're a kid, right?
That makes sense.
So... What...
is that?
Huh?
Well, what is that value?
What value? That was hated.
Well, the virtue, the curiosity, the intelligence, the skepticism, all the stuff that you talked about in your post, right?
So that's...
That's something that would go on that list, you think? What list again?
Of what I might have to offer?
Well, yeah. I mean, yeah.
I mean, virtue is...
Love is recognition of virtue, right?
So, I mean, if it doesn't go on that list, then, you know, according to our theory, love don't work so well, right?
Yeah, that's a good point.
I hadn't even thought of that.
Yeah, that's...
I don't even know why I hadn't made that connection.
Well, because this is your null zone, right?
This is where up is down, black is white, and reason means nothing, and...
You know, I can be the exception to UBB. I mean, this is the null zone for you, right?
Yeah, that's a good point.
That's another good point. And we all have them, right?
We all have them. Yeah.
The gray area where I'm the only exception to everything else.
Right. Right.
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
So, it's just the honesty of admitting that you want it.
You know, whether you like it or not, you just want it.
sure sure sure and therefore it must have something of value to offer you right yeah And if it has something of value to offer you, if love has something of value to offer you, and...
You want it, then you must have something of value to offer love, right?
Well, I don't follow how those three things can act.
Well, because otherwise you'd be an unjust person, right?
Like if I say, I want everyone to give me a million dollars and do nothing to earn it, that's unjust greed, right?
Right, but it doesn't mean that you...
That doesn't...
I mean, you still...
Working with this hypothetical, you still want it.
The want doesn't necessarily imply...
No, I don't want everyone to give me a million dollars.
If I genuinely felt that everybody owed me a million dollars just because I was breathing and I did nothing to earn it, obviously that would be immature and unjust, right?
Well, sure, sure, sure.
Right, so if you say, well, love has something of great value to offer me and I want it, but I have nothing to offer love whatsoever, that would be greedy and immature, right?
That certainly would, but it doesn't change the fact that I want it, right?
Well, yes, if you're willing to accept the thesis that you are a petty and immature human being.
And, yeah, I mean, that's it, right?
Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. I think I see what you're saying.
But...
But... But...
I mean...
Does it necessarily follow?
Well, no, but we're talking about you, right?
Right, okay. So you would have to have been a totally petty and unjust human being, and Nobody has noticed that.
I haven't noticed that, right?
That I invite a petty and unjust human being to my house and to work.
Like, I just haven't noticed.
Nobody's noticed that, right? No, that would be ridiculous.
Right. So, I mean, that's all I'm saying, is that you can sustain that thesis if you're willing to say that you want something for nothing.
And if you wanted something for nothing, you'd be run screaming from this conversation the first podcast you listened to, right?
Right. Yeah, that's true.
Because this is like nothing for something almost at the beginning, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
That's true. That's true.
So... So then, rejecting that thesis...
Yeah, it means that you know that you have something to offer, right?
Which is why you want something.
At least an outline.
Yeah, I mean, and the degree to which you feel you have something to offer is the degree to which you feel frustrated that you don't have that in your life, right?
Oh, wow. I hadn't made that connection.
Well, sure. Like, I mean, if I thought I was the worst actor in the world, I wouldn't feel frustrated at not being an actor, right?
That makes sense. Right.
That makes good sense.
I mean, that was the degree of frustration that I felt in academia and in book publishing and so on, right?
That I knew I had some great stuff to offer and nobody seemed to want it, at least until this venue opened up.
Right. To be generous and to exchange that with a woman is the degree to which you're frustrated that it's not happening.
That's an excellent point.
I used to like baseball a lot, but I don't really care that I'm not a baseball player.
Yeah, you don't watch spring training and say, God damn it!
The fuck is wrong with the world that I'm not out there?
Because I kind of knew that I sucked at it, so...
Yeah, yeah. And of course, most things in life we suck at, right?
Which is why we tend to specialize.
But yeah, you know, at least your instincts are telling you deep down that you have an enormous amount to offer and that a woman is going to have an enormous amount to offer you.
That's what your gut is telling you.
That's why you get frustrated.
That's why you get angry, right?
And so you're going to have to throw your gut out too, which is something never recommended, right?
In this conversation.
Right. Wait a minute.
Oh, you're going to have to say my gut is just torturing me with an impossibility?
It's like, no, it doesn't do that, right?
We've got so much evidence that people's anxiety, people's frustration, people's rage, it all comes from a place that if they listen to it is incredibly helpful, right?
That we've seen over and over and over again.
Right. It's just making all these...
It's just making all these connections that we're kind of...
Where it gets kind of difficult.
Well, sure, but that goes back to the question of why are virtuous people great to have in your life, right?
Yeah, that's true.
Well, this call is a perfect example of that.
Right, and if you have this, plus companionship, plus love, romantic love, you know, plus sex, plus cuddling, plus, you know, someone I have dinner with every night who makes you laugh and who you make laugh.
I mean, who would not want that, right?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So once you admit that you have a desire, right, then you will start to activate your means to get there, right?
We don't take sleeping pills unless we can't sleep, right?
Right. So once you admit that your desire is very strong for this and that you strongly believe deep down that you have an amazing amount to offer a woman and that a woman in particular is going to have a great amount to offer you, then you'll be motivated, right?
Hmm. I've been sort of half motivated, I guess, is the right...
Yeah, you've been following it like a rote, right?
Like, I guess I've got to do this thing because, you know, it's on the list and shit like that, right?
But it's not motivated by a real desire to achieve that which you believe you are capable of that's going to bring you the greatest happiness, right?
Right, right, right, right.
Right, so it's just about being honest, that you really want it, that you genuinely believe that you have a lot to offer a woman, that she has a lot to offer you.
You have no fucking clue how to do it, and that's totally fine, because the first step is always the honesty, right?
Right, right, right, right, and all of that is true.
Right, and all of that is true, and then the next step is, obviously, I mean, after you simmer on this for a while, is you just have to do the opposite of what you've done.
The opposite of what I've done.
Yeah. Which is...
Well, what it means is that you have to start, maybe over the internet or something, but start getting in contact with women and talking to them.
Not necessarily as Joe Studley, Doodley, pickup guy or anything like that, but just to start to talk to women online or wherever it is that you can meet them and just see.
Yeah.
And face that fear of rejection and face that fear of X, Y, and Z, all that kind of stuff, right?
But it's like what we were talking about with Nate at the PKRT roundtable, right?
You just got to do the opposite of what you've been doing, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's, yeah.
So did this get a little further than...
I mean, relative to your expectations, this was okay?
Oh, relative to my expectations, it was, yes.
I ditched the other group that I was connected to because they were just a bunch of Divorcees complaining about their college-age kids.
Right.
But there was another group out there that was... single specific.
So I thought I'd give that one a try.
I don't know if that's a good idea or not.
To give another group a try?
Yeah. Well, the path will open up once you've got the feelings down, right?
Again, you enjoy the view from orbit, right?
Well, what do you mean the path will open up?
What does that mean in concrete terms?
Well, what it means is that, you know, when I went through the therapy crazy talk thing, when I had read all of this shit and written all these books, I didn't know what the hell I was going to do with it.
And I didn't do it saying, I'm going to do all of this so I can start a podcast in five years.
Right, right, right.
And I certainly didn't do it saying, well, if I go through this, I'll be happily married, right?
But it changes who you are, it changes the people around you, right?
Right. There's a difference between leaning up against the rail of a ship and turning the rudder, right?
Right, sure. So, if you just accept that you have a desire for all of this, and you want it, and you have something to offer that's great, and so on, once you start to really believe that, what to do next will occur for you.
If you leap, a bridge will appear.
It's weird as shit, but it really works.
Right, so... So then I should just sit here and wait for the inspiration?
Well, can you tell me what was inflammatory and annoying about what you just said?
Well, I was...
Do you think that at any time during this conversation I said you should sit and wait?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
So why would you introduce that?
Because I'm getting frustrated again.
Right. So you're trying to make me frustrated, right?
By pretending to misunderstand everything that we've been talking about for an hour and 20 minutes, right?
Right. Sorry about that.
I'm saying work on the feelings.
You sit in the chair and you understand that you have this desire for love, for intimacy, for sexuality, for romance.
You have a desire.
You have something to offer. And you just work through all that anxiety and you just let it all happen to you.
And you talk about it with your therapist and you journal about it.
Talk about it with Pete. Just let yourself go through all of that, right?
That is hard work, right?
That is not sitting around waiting for inspiration to come any more than I was sitting around when I was writing Crazy Talk, right?
No, no, no, no.
Right, right, right, right.
I agree.
Right, but how you said earlier, you know, all this stuff changes the people around you, too.
Well, the problem I have is that there are no people around me, period.
Right, right. It's just me and my Skype connection.
Once you go through this, there will be people around you.
There will be, no question, right?
Because you will be a different human being to interact with, as we talked about with your cynicism about the hiking trip.
When you said to the cab driver, I'm a philosopher, what happened?
Yeah, yeah.
Right? You'll just be a different person, and you'll be interacting...
I mean, not a different person, you'll be more of who you are, but you'll be interacting in a way that people will find appealing and positive, unlike your first post on the board here on this topic, right?
So people will be around you.
I have to kind of...
Be somewhere people are, right?
In order for that to happen, right?
Well, but you've been where people are before and it hasn't helped a goddamn bit, right?
Right, right. So don't worry about it.
Don't worry about that. Just work on the feelings.
Well, because I wasn't in the right state of mind, right?
Yeah, it didn't matter where you went, right?
Right. Right.
Well, I guess what I'm saying is I kind of have to work in parallel.
Right? Well, I don't know what you mean.
Just work on the fucking Felix, Craig.
I mean, I don't know what the hell you're overcomplicating all this for, right?
Alright. I gotta work in parallel.
I gotta get a Cray. You know, maybe I need a hot air balloon and five goats.
Jesus Christ, just work on the goddamn Felix, right?
Okay. Okay. Right?
I mean, we've covered a lot in this podcast.
This is enough meat for weeks, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's probably...
And you're immediately like, yes, but what after those weeks?
Right? It's like, no, no, no, no.
Go through the weeks. You don't even know what it looks like on the other side of that.
Yeah, that's true. That's a good point.
That's a good point. All right.
I'll... I'll go with that for now.
Excellent. Alright, I will send you a copy and let me know what you think.
Will do. Thanks, man.
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