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March 22, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:46:54
1019 FDR Premium 79: We Are Full of Treasure

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Well, alright, so...
So, I understand what you're saying about the false dichotomy, but what I'm not quite getting is how you can but what I'm not quite getting is how you can lower your expectations and still enjoy the outing.
Right, so...
Do you feel that if you don't get to live to be 300 years old that your life is going to be crap?
Well, no, but that's not quite what I mean.
Well, but there's an analogy that works, right?
Which is that if you have an unreasonable expectation that you're going to live to be 300, then you're going to be disappointed, right?
Because you're not going to get to live to be 300.
But you can still enjoy the life that you have by adjusting your expectations to what is reasonable, right?
Sure, sure. In fact, having the unrealistic expectations itself, and I wrestle with these all the time too, right?
Because, you know, when FDR really began to take off and it's like, you know, there are times when it plateaus and I reach for more and so on, right?
So, I mean, we all have struggled with this, this unrealistic expectations or just being empirical, right?
But if you have unrealistic expectations, then the disappointment and frustration is going to be It's fairly continual, right?
True.
But here's what I'm thinking on that.
The unrealistic expectation is I hope I find some interesting people there.
Somebody worth talking to.
What is the definition of somebody worth talking to?
Well, just interesting and just actually thoughtful and not just kind of stuck in new sports weatherland.
Well, but you had that with your philosophy group, right?
That's true. And how did that work here?
Not well at all.
Right, because what you mean is somebody who can really think, right?
Yeah, I guess that's true.
But what if, and this is going to be stupid ass Vane's death, right?
So I'm totally comfortable with that.
What if what we're doing here is completely revolutionary?
Right?
Then it's going to be really rare, right?
And you may find somebody who has the potential to think, or who thinks in particular circumscribed areas.
But you're not going to have anybody who understands and gets psychology, philosophy, economics, self-knowledge, dream analysis, introspection, the MECO system, the RTR. And I know that you're not expecting that in particular, but I'm just wondering what your expectations are of somebody who would be worthwhile to talk to.
Well, for example, today I was just looking for some basic curiosity.
I didn't even see that.
And did you see that in the philosophy group?
Actually, no.
Okay. And we got other people in on the call here.
I mean, how often do you run into somebody who is genuinely curious and thoughtful?
Well, outside of this community, not ever.
Yeah.
That was Nate? Yeah.
Well, what we have to do is work empirically, right?
I mean, we've just got to work from the facts, not from what we want or our expectations, right?
So, right.
So I lower my expectations to basically expect no one to be curious or interesting or thoughtful.
You're putting framing language in and you're creating a false dichotomy, right?
Because you're basically saying, okay, so then I lower my expectations or lower my standards, right?
Okay. We're talking about lowering your standards.
We're talking about accepting reality.
Because the way you frame it is like, fine, so I lower my standards and expect nothing from people, so why should I leave my apartment, right?
I know where this goes, right?
We've seen this train leave the station a bunch of times, right?
But if you were to say to me, oh, so Steph, I'm supposed to adjust my expectations to match reality?
I'm supposed to have realistic expectations?
It's tough to be pissed off then, right?
If you put it that way.
So there's a reason that you're choosing the language that you're choosing, right?
Right, so let's say then that, so what exactly is reality then?
What can we say that's true about reality in this situation?
Let's just ask around, right?
I mean, how many times do you meet people who you can sustain A relatively intelligent conversation, not where everybody agrees or anything like that, but somebody who's, you know, curious and interested and so on.
How many times do you meet people like that in your daily life or in your activities?
And we can just put this out there, right?
I mean, we can put this out there to this conversation.
We can put this out. You just gather information, right?
Right, right. So, for you, how many times a year do you meet people who are worth talking to?
Well, I mean, in my case, I mean, outside of FDR, basically never.
Okay, never. Nate?
Never. Never.
Other Greg? Never.
All right. I'm not very good at pattern recognition, but even I can see that there may be a pattern here.
Anyone else? Brian says never.
And Brian actually has said never, and that includes everyone at the RTR conference.
No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Matt, we've got the chat window going here, if you can see it.
But we're just looking at the trend, right?
Right. And we can't do anything other than first look at the facts and not make up stories about this, that, or why, but just look at the facts and absorb the facts.
And then we can start to look at causality and so on, right?
But you have a thesis that is not congruent with the facts of your experience, right?
Which means that it's a trap of some kind.
It's a myth, right? Okay.
It's not derived from the facts, right?
Stuff which is derived from the facts is not mythological, right?
That's science or that's empiricism or whatever, right?
But you have a thesis or an expectation that is not derived from the facts, right?
Which is expecting to find somebody like that in the general population.
On a hike. Right.
Or in an amateur philosophy club, or even a professional philosophy club, right?
Right. Yeah, I've tried on both.
Well, you also heard the rough statistics, right?
That how many people, and this is just roughly, right?
How many people in the FDR conversation do you enjoy talking with?
Do you seek out and converse with?
And I know that's a small number, and that doesn't mean that there's bad people or you don't care.
It's just how many people do you have that's like half a dozen maybe?
Yeah, roughly. Maybe four or five regulars.
Okay. So we start off with the thesis that maybe 100,000 people have visited FDR over the past couple of years.
Okay. And it's shaken down to the point where there's a couple of people that you enjoy interacting with, right?
Yeah, that's true.
So, what's the math on that?
.0002? Yeah, you're right.
It's just facts.
We may not like it, but those are just the facts, right?
Those are the facts, exactly.
Okay, so what we think...
Sorry, go ahead. Well, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how...
I mean, in effect, I don't see how that changes what my choices are.
You don't see how that changes what your choices are.
So we've worked out something that's new for you, right?
Just looking at a base statistic, right?
And we just got a bunch of other people, and you're immediately rationing into what do I do with this information.
You're not processing it, right?
Okay.
Right, because you're not sitting there saying, wow, this is a really interesting way of looking at it.
I may not like it.
Right? You know, it's like I've worked, and this is, you know, not to put you in the same category, but it's like, you know, when you do all this work to prove to somebody that there is no God, and then they say, well, but then people would just do whatever they want, and there'd be no ethics, right?
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Like this immediately, well, what is the effect of this information, right?
But let's process the information first, because there's a reason why you, a highly, highly intelligent, educated, philosophically aware person, has ignored some basic empirical facts until this moment, right?
See, you're not being curious about, well, that's obvious, but why haven't I processed it?
Because it is obvious, right, to say, well, you've got to work from the facts about what the odds are of meeting somebody on a hiking group who's going to be curious and worth talking to, right?
Well, and I did think about that, though.
I mean, on the one hand, I was trying to...
Okay...
I was trying to, I guess, not be negative and sort of...
Sorry, but that window, that was you trying to not be negative?
I'm disappointed. I'm alienated.
I feel uninteresting.
I'm just trying to figure out what would the full-on negative thing look like in comparison?
No, no, no. When I decided to do this, I said, well, maybe I'm just being like...
You know...
Because the thinking behind it is that I'm isolating myself in order to avoid Exposure to possibilities, right? Avoid exposure to possibilities, okay?
Can you break that down for me?
I'm not sure what that means. Right, so, and you've brought this up before, too, about how, but in a slightly different way, about how...
When an exception to the rule comes up, like you and Christina, for example, that that challenges the base assumption, and that's where the anxiety comes from, right?
So you have to sort of isolate yourself in order to avoid...
Exposure to that, right?
Having your theory shot by an example that's counter to it, right?
Right. So my thinking from there was that, well, then I'm going to try socializing because then I can sort of I guess...
Stop trying to avoid that possibility, right?
Right.
Right. And people are just typing into the chat.
I just noticed that they're saying that they see the reality of this problem, that the rarity of the people that we want to meet, but accepting it would just put you in a pit of despair.
And I say, that's an argument from a fact, right?
We face the facts no matter what.
We face the facts no matter what.
That's science, right? That's philosophy.
Right. That's all that we talk about.
We face the facts and then we figure it out from there.
But we don't reject the facts for the sake of it might make us feel sad, right?
Right. And I'm not...
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Well, just that thesis itself is not even proven, right?
That's no more... The thesis that if we accept the rarity of the people we want to interact with...
That if we accept that reality, we will feel a bottomless pit of despair.
That thesis is about as sensible and proven as if we get rid of governments, everybody will kill each other.
Right, and I'm not so much...
That really wasn't my...
No, I was just talking about that other thesis that was floating around, so...
But my thinking is, though, that if we accept the thesis, then I become unmotivated once again to bother trying.
I would argue quite the opposite.
My argument would be the complete opposite, which doesn't mean anything other than I would argue the complete opposite.
It doesn't mean that I'm right. I would argue the complete opposite.
And this is just maybe my experience in sales, right?
But if you really want to connect with people and you know how amazingly rare it is, right?
Let's say that you really wanted to connect with someone and you knew just how rare it was.
How could you maximize your chances of doing that?
Well, given all the statistics we've just been over, obviously the approach I've been taking isn't the right one.
Right.
How could you maximize your potential for achieving that goal?
I guess hang out on the FDR chat room.
That's a possibility for sure.
That's a possibility for sure.
And that's such an obvious possibility that you could flirt in the FDR chat room that the reason you haven't done it is telling, right?
Well... Flirt?
Okay, we can do stage two later, but even, you can certainly, you can hang out in the FDR chat room, but what you want is people closer to where you live, right?
So that you can actually hang out with people, right?
Well, I mean, let's go with that.
Forget about the other thing.
We'll just go with, like, the goal is to find people somewhere in Rally that you could have some sort of Intelligent conversation with, or even just an enjoyable conversation with, right?
Right, I'd be satisfied with that.
Enjoyable and interesting.
So given that the odds of trying to find that are small, and frankly getting smaller by the day as you become more self-aware, more self-knowledgeable, what is the best way that you have to achieve that?
Hmm.
Ooh, you're going to kick yourself.
Yes.
What, start my own club?
I don't know.
No, because you don't know what kind of lunatics are going to want to join, right?
Right. Right. Right.
I'm at a loss.
I mean, outside of social groups or FDR, I'm kind of drawing a blank.
Well, the way that I would suggest it is something like this.
Clearly, hoping that you're going to find somebody who comes to the FDR boards, who's from Raleigh, who's not married with three kids and has no time, and is interested in some things, that's kind of a long shot, right?
I also think maybe I need to move again.
Well, there is the Palmetto Bugs thing.
Maybe you do. Who knows?
Maybe you do. The religious culture down here is quite a bit more than I expected.
Right. Maybe I need to move to California or something.
I don't know. You may need to move to California.
That way you can get the Mystic Hippies instead.
Right. The granolas.
I think that There's a lot that you can do going on a hiking trip, right?
That is different than what you're doing that is going to have an effect on the outcome.
Okay. The way that I'll just, and I'm sorry because I know this is all supposed to be probing you and all that, but I've just used myself as an example, right?
And this is just what worked for me and so on.
maybe it'll help.
Clearly, if I had waited with FDR until I met somebody who already accepted what I believed I would never achieve it, right?
Because nobody believed what I believed, right?
Thank you.
Thank you.
That's true. So I faced an even bigger dilemma in some ways, right?
And this is not a competition, right?
But I'm just sort of pointing this out, right?
I had the challenge of how am I going to get people interested in the shit that I'm putting out, which is anti-political, Anti-most people's families.
Anti-most people's relationships.
It's going to blow their mind.
I'm going to get a lot of hostility.
I'm going to get a lot of problems.
It's going to destabilize a lot of people.
And the payoff doesn't come for years.
Sometimes. Right.
Not an easy sell, right?
Certainly not. You know, there are easier things to sell than FDR. Like, I don't know, a shitsicle.
Hula hoops. Right.
Hula hoops. Much easier, right?
Yeah.
So how did I do it?
Well, um...
How did I make people interested in what it is I had to say, even if I was making them eat a massive shit sandwich at the same time?
Crack a lot of jokes.
Well, there is a little bit of that in that, but that requires a certain...
Well, you have a great sense of humor, but how did I do it?
Um... Just...
Being, um...
Well, I mean, for me, it was the consistency and the passion.
That's really what kind of sold me.
I mean, you really believe this stuff, and...
In a way that you don't really hear in the voices of other people talking about atheism or anarchism or any subject, whatever.
There's always this sort of sedate kind of disassociation to most people who...
I mean, even people who have podcasts are like that, too.
Everybody's trying to emulate the NPR model, right, where you just kind of mumble your opinions, you know?
And, I mean, you are completely different in that, I mean, you really believe this stuff, right? Right, right, but there's lots of preachers out there who believe their stuff too, right?
Right. So they seem, right?
Barack Obama apparently can convince people he cares about them, right?
Right, but that's so transparent.
Well, but it wasn't for you for a long time, right?
Because you were into the Rush Limbaugh stuff and all that, right?
That's true. It's transparent now, but...
Because another way of asking this, and I know this sounds like it's about me, but it's really not.
Another way of asking is this, what the fuck were you crazy bastards doing listening past the first podcast?
You knew what was coming. I mean, what the fuck were you people thinking?
Like, oh great, let's keep listening and see what happens.
Yeah, and actually the family ones wound up having to listen to those two or three times before they finally sunk in.
Right. Right.
So why did you keep listening?
Because you were, um...
I mean, you were honest.
Lots of people are honest.
I mean, you listen to Walter Block, he's an honest guy about what he's talking about.
That's true.
Because, um...
Okay, so if it's not your honesty, your consistency, or your passion, then...
Yeah, I'm at a loss.
Do you want me to be annoying and keep asking, or should I tell you what I think it is anyway?
Well, one more try.
Because you're enjoying yourself?
Yeah, because I'm happy.
I mean, isn't that what you got from the first syllable?
It's like, this guy's happy.
And he cares and he's passionate about stuff.
That's what they were saying at Free Talk Live on Friday, right?
They were like, but you're just like the only positive person we've ever had on here, right?
That's true. Yeah, you're right.
That's exactly right. Get your gold and head for the hills, right?
There's nothing we can do if it's not going to be Ron Paul.
It's all over. Go buy some bio blobs and head for the hills or whatever the hell they were selling, right?
Because I'm not a film. That's exactly right.
Because I'm happy. Right.
Right. You're right. You're exactly right.
And I'm not idiot happy. Right?
It's contagious. It's infectious.
Yeah. I mean, isn't that what people want, right?
I mean, what I was selling had nothing to do with philosophy and nothing to do with DROs.
Right? What I was selling was happiness.
Right? Yeah, you're right about that.
You're absolutely right about that.
Because I've asked, I don't know how many dozens of people over the last couple of years, maybe 50 or 60 people, like, why did you keep listening?
And people are like, I don't know, it was entertaining, right?
It's like, yeah, well, lots of shit is entertaining, right?
Right. Right, right, right.
No, that makes sense. It's ferociously happy, right?
I mean, the podcasts are fundamentally and ferociously happy, right?
Yeah, and the interesting thing about that is that it doesn't necessarily mean that you're always smiling.
No, and it doesn't mean that I'm not yelling in anger.
And that's what people sort of mean by passion.
But it's the happiness that keeps people coming back, right?
The fact that I'm having a blast, but I'm not having a stupid blast, you know?
Like an Oscar party blast, you know, and all that kind of stuff, right?
Right! Champagne corks popping.
500! You know, it's not that kind of happiness.
This is something that is really sustainable.
Right, right. Genuine happiness, not just elation or giddiness or victory or whatever, right?
Right, right.
That's true. That's absolutely true.
And that's what made you all curious about what I was saying, right?
Yeah. And that's why the podcasts work and the videos work in a way that the articles don't, right?
That's exactly right.
Because that's the only way that you can transmit that.
The tone of voice that I have, which is not fake, which is genuine, and which is like...
You're looking across a desert because most people are trudging their way through lives without much joy.
Or if joy comes, it's the joy of escape or drugs or drinking or, you know, sex.
And that just comes and goes, right?
And so if you see this, which comes across everything that I do to one degree or another, it's going to come across that way.
That it's just, there's a lot of joy there, right?
Yes. Your phone is going off again, Greg?
Son of a...
It's okay, we're talking about pattern recognition anyway, so...
Every time we're on the phone with Greg...
Should be better now.
But that is what you were curious about.
It didn't have anything to do with DROs, and it didn't have anything to do with ethical theories.
And I was also, like, I was happy, and I was willing to be corrected, and I was willing to self-correct, and I was willing to take all the blows and then come up and be happy again, go down fighting, and then come up and be happy again, and so on, right?
This sort of fierce joy that I generally feel about life.
It doesn't mean, like, 24-7, but...
That is what made you curious, and that's what opened people up to the ideas.
This is what drives a lot of people nuts.
I accidentally, I don't go to Limey, but I did accidentally go there.
The only reason being that somebody pinged me and said, Limey seems to be down.
I wonder if they've shut it down.
Just out of curiosity, I went over it, but I couldn't remember the name of the forum, so I I just sort of tootled over, and I just hit a thread of theirs, and the thread was, you know, what has Steph brought that is new, right?
And this was their thread.
And I had a look at it just out of curiosity, and they were going through, well, the DRO theory has been done before, and yeah, okay, no positive unchosen obligations, but I bet you he got that from Robert Lefebvre and things like it, like all that kind of stuff, right?
And they were going through all of this stuff.
It's like, well, what new stuff has he brought?
And it's like, the new stuff that I brought is happiness, you dumb bastards.
Yeah. Yeah, but that's not something that you can...
That's not something that you can...
Pretend, either.
No, you can't. You certainly can't sustain it in the face of lots of opposition and sniping and bitching and this sort of stuff, right?
Right, right.
So how did you come to that in the face of all these statistics?
Well, I realized that, first of all, I mean, you got to be happy, right?
And there is a lot that we can do to control our state of happiness, right?
And the reasonable expectations is one of the core ones, right?
But you've got to be happy and content within your own skin.
And if philosophy can't give you that, nothing can, right?
That's never going to happen. If philosophy and self-reflection and being at peace with yourself, if you can't get there with philosophy, you just can't get there at all, in my opinion.
But I was very aware, because it took a lot of work for me to open up emotionally, right?
Because there's a lot of vulnerability and happiness, right?
Yeah, that's true. There is a lot of vulnerability because people view happiness as a big fucking target on your forehead, right?
Right. Right, that's true.
Happiness brings out the cranks and the irritables, right?
Yep. Lures them out of their cave, these dark trolls of misery and despair, right?
Yep, yep, that's true.
And you all see this, right?
You see the kid singing a song and being happy and the mom snapping at her to keep it down.
It's just natural.
Happiness brings out the dark side of people like nothing else, right?
Well, people as they are today, anyway.
Yeah, absolutely, of course.
Not in the future, but in the Hades that we live in.
Fresh blood, right?
That's what people view...
Do you see the paradox in that, though?
If that's true, that genuine happiness brings out hateful responses from people, then first then first of all, everything we've been saying over the last ten minutes or so couldn't be true.
And secondly...
Not in everyone. I mean, not everyone gets pissed off because I'm happy.
Right? It's just, it's a common response, but it's not a universal response.
Okay. I mean, we do have tens of thousands of listeners here, right?
No, that's true. So it's not a common response, but it is a response.
I think people who...
I don't know what the difference is, but I suspect it's people who are wanting to find that.
Like, really wanting...
Yeah, people who still believe in happiness and people who haven't dated an enormous amount of emotional energies to crushing the happiness of other people don't tend to be too threatened by the possibility of happiness, in my opinion.
Fascinated and intrigued, maybe, is more like the response from those folks.
Which folks, sorry? The ones who haven't, like you say, haven't devoted a lot of energy to attacking happiness.
Right, right, because you guys don't have guilt around that, right?
Right. And the people who have gone the Limey route to categorize things way too broadly, but that's just a big catch-all for those types of people, most of whom I never see.
Right? I mean, I do get, I don't know, like a dozen or so emails a day of people bitching and moaning about this, that, and the other, or just, you know, being mean or whatever, right?
But the vast majority of people just get irritated and leave, right?
Because if happiness exists, and if it's possible, then that places an implicit possibility and responsibility on them that they don't want to have, right?
So they're just like, fuck, my legs are broken.
I'm down at the bottom of the well.
Don't tell me to climb, right?
Right? Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense. So, what got people, what got you guys listening and staying listening was happiness.
And not my happiness.
What the hell do you care about my happiness?
But your happiness. Yeah, the potential for it for ourselves, right?
Right. Because you're the example that proves that it's possible.
Yeah, if one man can fly, flight is possible, right?
Right. And I don't think that there are people in this conversation, even in this call, who can say, I'm equally happy or unhappy as I was two years ago, or three years ago.
Oh, I'm definitely much happier now than I was then, for sure.
That's for sure.
And Nate? I would say at least 10 times.
And I am too. I am happier than I was before I started this as well.
And I started off not too bad, but I'm a hell of a lot happier now because I'm not involved in all of this business mess with people who...
Anyway, we don't have to get into all of that.
But yeah, there's a step up, right?
And that's not constant.
And there's sometimes when it's harder doing this than it feels like doing anything else.
But on balance and on average, it's a plus, right?
So it kind of works.
It is transferable, right?
Sure, sure, sure.
So that is an example of how a minority of one can grow into a community, right?
And not through manipulation and not through exploitation and so on, right?
Right, right, right.
But there had to be a, I mean, there had to be a core happiness there to begin with.
You couldn't just ape it and get the same effect, I don't think, anyway.
Oh, we have somebody, I don't know if he's got a mic, he says he doesn't feel any happier.
Matt, can you have a mic? Does he?
One of them didn't have a mic.
Okay, Matt K? Yeah, I do.
Yeah, so you don't feel happier than...
How long have you been listening?
About a year.
And you don't feel any happier or sadder?
I'm not sure, really.
I'm not sure.
So you're not sure whether you feel happier or sadder?
Do you feel strongly either way, or do you feel strongly about...
I don't know, I wouldn't say I'm a lot unhappier, I'm just maybe more aware.
Okay, and would you say that you've been listening to the podcast or doing the philosophy thing?
I've been mostly listening.
What would it mean to do it?
Because you've got Nate busting up his engagement, you've got Greg giving up a full-time job to work for this lunatic organization.
And again, this is not saying that it has to be anything that extreme or whatever, but what would it mean to you to say to do it rather than to talk about it?
I'm not really sure. Okay, so there's kind of like a fog here for you, right?
Yeah. Okay, and I would really love to deal with that fog and maybe we should at some point have a look at it.
Yeah, we can do it some other time if it's interrupting.
Right, but it's not like you have put this stuff into practice over the last year but feel exactly the same as when you started.
Yeah, it's not like that or anything.
Okay, and write me an email, give me a ping, and we'll take a swing at this, because I don't think you're alone in that, right?
People listen to the podcast, and it's like transmission from another planet, right?
Wow, it sounds like they're having... Oh shit, what do I do now?
Right, right. Okay, so make a note of that, and get in touch with me, and we'll figure that one out.
I just wanted to sort of...
And to me, that's not particularly an exception to what...
We're talking about because I don't think that I became particularly happy when I was thinking all of this stuff and embedded in corrupt relationships.
And I'm not saying that's your situation, but when I wasn't living it, it didn't make me any happier.
In fact, I think it just made my life more difficult.
Because the whole point of what I'm trying to do here is make philosophy actually help people rather than just make their lives more difficult.
Because when I was sort of in the objectivist camp...
It just made my life more difficult because it's all about abstracts and not about your personal relationships.
So, I mean, there's an example of a, you know, like, and I'm certainly, God knows, I'm no organizational genius or anything like that.
Far from it, right?
But it was the happiness that awakened people's desire to continue listening.
here's how I got happy and I know it is a shit sandwich a lot of times but here's how I got happy Greg's the only one who's read the core book on that right but I sort of shared tried to share as best as I can and as compellingly as I can how I got there right But your curiosity about who I... I mean, the conversation arose out of curiosity about happiness.
Not curiosity about ideas, not curiosity about politics, but curiosity about happiness, right?
I would say that that's true, yeah.
So... The only way that I believe that you can strongly affect the odds of creating that environment in your life is to be happy and to express happiness to people.
And that doesn't mean that I say that and you're like, yay, I'm going to go out and surf on my new tsunami of happiness and go and scoop up the world.
But what it means is that at least stop doing the wrong things, right?
At least stop doing the things that aren't going to work.
Right, right. And I guess that's kind of what it comes down to, is I'm...
I'm not really...
But you've listened to a thousand podcasts showing you exactly what to do.
So when you say, this is what I said, it's a cop-out when you say, I don't know what else to do.
You know exactly what else to do because it's what worked for you in getting you interested in this kind of conversation.
You're right. I mean, this sounds completely ridiculous, right?
But if you're going to go on a hike with people, big smile, right?
You know, walking tall, you know, shoulder square, chest out, big smile, firm handshake, you know, that kind of stuff.
I mean, I know that sounds all completely cheesy and it's like Anthony Robbins' power suits will, you know, eat your lunch or whatever, right?
But... But if it's in the tone of your voice, if it's in the way that you present yourself, and I'm not talking about faking anything, right?
But it's just going in and say, well, if I can't be happy, I'm not going to go.
Because I'm just going to make myself less happy if I go and I'm not happy.
Right? Right.
Right. That's exactly right.
And that's what's happening. That's what's been happening to you repetitively, is you go out tentatively, cautiously, Stingily, I would say, not sharing of your joy, not sharing of your heart, right?
Because you're resentful, right?
And I had to get over a lot of that, too.
Shit knows. I mean, look, I mean, I tried for talking 20 years to get published, got, you know, no interest in me in graduate school, had my company ripped up from under me and sold, undervalued.
I had a lot of resentment, right?
Family betrayals, violence, and all this.
I had a lot of resentment.
That's true. There is...
Yeah, that's a good point.
You hoard and you're stingy and you won't overcome and find...
This all sounds completely cheesy.
I'm aware of that, but I'm going to do it anyway.
You can't find the love for the potential in the people around you to say, fuck, it's not about my ego.
It's about sharing the truth.
It's about sharing virtue.
It's about making the world a happier place.
It's about making the world a more rational place.
And if I've got to take some bullets to do it, that's fine.
I will wear those with honor.
But what does that mean, take some bullets?
Well, it means that people are going to shit on you if you're happy.
And they're going to try and cut you down.
And it's going to hurt.
Because to be happy is to be vulnerable.
And it's going to hurt when people cut you down.
And that's just taking some bullets, right?
I get these emails of people cutting me down.
It pisses me off.
It hurts. It's upsetting.
Right? But that's just the bullets you have to take, right?
If you want to come out from under a rock, right?
As I said before, if you lift one finger in this world, there's going to be six million people screaming at you that it should have been a thumb, right?
Well, and I'm just thinking back over the course of the hike this morning, and... I'm just trying to think of what I could have done differently. and... I'm just trying to think of what I could Just trying to think of what I could have done differently.
Well, were you happy to go?
Oh, I was excited to go, actually.
Okay, well that's great, right?
I like hiking. Yeah, hiking is great.
Now, if you are, I mean, to me, this is my sort of mantra, just like, be relentlessly positive.
And that doesn't mean fake or anything like that, right?
It just means that I have a happiness in what it is that I'm doing, and yeah, I get knocked down and this and that, but I'm not going to surrender that which is good to that which is petty.
I'm not going to surrender that which is noble or that which is joyous to that which is little and mean-spirited.
I'm just not going to.
I'm just not going to.
I'm not going to hide and I'm not going to, you know, stick my light up my ass in case somebody doesn't like it, right?
And I mean, I did do some things differently today than I normally do.
I mean, like for example, I didn't wait for other people to introduce themselves.
I introduced myself first.
And did you do that tentatively or did you do that with great happiness or like what was your experience of that?
I would say it was – there was some reserve there.
But it wasn't – I wasn't like – I wasn't being suspicious or resentful or anything like that.
I was trying to be friendly.
How long did it take before the suspicion and resentment came up though?
Because when you were talking about it in the chat window, you were talking about it with suspicion and resentment, right?
Yeah, that's true.
So how long does it take for that to show up for you?
That happened when...
Some of the folks in the group started carrying on about their high school and college-aged children.
I got really irritated by...
How long was that? That was about a half hour into the hike.
It was about an hour and a half hike.
So you were saying that you were positive and happy to be there and chatting with people for about half an hour?
Yeah. That's about right.
Now, what did you tell them that you do?
Well, they didn't ask.
Why didn't you tell them what you do?
Well, an opportunity didn't really come up.
Oh, come on. You make those opportunities.
Right. And what is it that you would say if somebody says, Greg, what do you do?
Well, I would tell them that I work for you.
Well, I don't think that would make much sense to them.
I would say, I would tell them if I were you, I would say I'm a philosopher.
Well, I don't know that I really deserve that label.
Really? Why not? Well, I mean, you're the guy with all the podcasts and the videos, right?
I just push the buttons behind the scenes.
Oh really, so you haven't listened to all these podcasts and have become very well educated about philosophy?
I thought you had some of the podcasts because you mentioned that you've listened to a few.
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah.
Right, you don't have to invent a vaccine to be a doctor, right?
No, you're right, that's right.
You can just learn to be a doctor, right?
Yep, yep, that's exactly right.
You don't have to invent medicine, you don't, right? Right, right, right.
So, I mean, and that's what I would say, certainly to the people who've listened to, you know, I mean, I just say I'm a philosopher.
And I think that's valid for anybody who's listened to a whole bunch of these podcasts, because people have stopped pinging questions at you, you could answer them, right?
Yeah, I can certainly do that.
Yeah, what is virtue?
I mean, you can take those questions down.
It doesn't mean perfectly, God knows none of us do that, but you could take a damn good run at it, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I think I could.
Right, so you're a philosopher.
Just sounds weird to hear that.
Well, maybe. I'm not sure what you've been studying, but for me, it's been philosophy, right?
Right, right. Right.
It's like, oh, why do you get to call yourself a philosopher?
It's like, because I've devoted my life, body, and soul to the truth.
Because that's what I do with my day.
I eat, I shit, and I do philosophy.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Right? That's a good point.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Yes, it means you're Socrates.
That's true. I mean, I'm not Socrates.
Jeez, I mean, the stuff that I've invented pales in comparison to what everyone else has invented.
I'm just picking up the pieces and putting them together, right?
But no, what do I do?
I'm a philosopher, right?
Somebody who works as an accountant and spends his nights and weekends in a band says, I'm a musician, right?
Because I don't want to talk about being a fucking accountant, right?
Because I don't give a shit about being an accountant.
I care about music.
Yes, my brother does that.
Yeah, of course. In fact, I encouraged him to do that.
Yeah. I mean, you don't go to a waiter in Los Angeles and say, what do you do?
And the guy says, I'm a waiter.
He says, I'm a writer.
I'm a director. I'm an actor.
I'm a model. I just do this because whatever, right?
I want to talk about waitering, right?
Right, right, that's true.
Talk about what I care about.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, you're right. Sorry, go ahead.
Well, I was just going to say I really only got three questions from them, which was basically, who are you, why are you in Raleigh, and what do you think of the weather?
Sure. And do you know why you only got three questions?
That's a good question.
I don't know why I guess you didn't say I'm a philosopher Well I did tell them That I quit a long time job And moved to Raleigh I I it.
Kind of on a...
not on a lark, but...
because I was disillusioned with what I was doing, and that just kind of...
Oh, sorry? Sorry? What was that?
I was just enjoying the gripping recitation of your joy at being a philosopher.
Well, I had a lot of jobs and then I quit because I wanted to come to Rally because I like that.
Sorry. No, no, don't apologize.
This is just what happened, but you understand why you've only got three questions, right?
Because people were afraid that you might answer a fourth.
Well, and that's exactly right.
I mean, I kind of know...
I knew that that was why.
You create that, and then you get mad at people for not being interested in you, right?
But nobody owes you interest.
No, absolutely not.
I don't... I agree.
It absolutely doesn't happen.
Nobody owes you depth.
Nobody owes you curiosity.
Nobody owes you interest.
Nobody owes you philosophy.
Nobody owes you thinking. Nobody owes you anything, right?
No, they don't. Absolutely not.
But you get mad when it doesn't show up.
You get frustrated.
So there must be an implicit obligation that you've got cooking or you wouldn't get frustrated.
That's true. I do get frustrated.
Yeah, because you think they damn well should be bigger and better than that, and what the hell are they doing talking about this and that crap and shit and weather and who cares, right?
Well, I mean, isn't that what you say, though?
Well, I don't... I changed that.
I mean, that people really should be bigger than they are?
Well, yes, but I don't wait for them to suddenly wake up and be bigger than they are.
I make them bigger than they are.
Right? Yeah.
I guess...
I mean, what you're...
You're like this person who has this amazing ability to make people quit drinking, and what you're doing is going to a bar full of alcoholics and waiting for them to quit drinking of their own accord.
The reason that the emptiness rushes in is because you don't fill the space.
Yes.
The reason that people get small-minded and petty is because big people aren't vulnerable and open and honest and happy.
You create the pettiness by not filling the social environment with something bigger and more powerful.
It's a vacuum that rushes in because of your absence.
Right? That's kind of how it felt.
Right.
So it's your fault that they're talking about the weather.
Hmm.
Well, that's an interesting...
That's an interesting spin on the day.
Well, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
I bet you if you say, you know, I got really interested in this philosopher and I've quit and I've devoted myself full-time to spreading the truth, to spreading ideas about ethics and about virtue and about truth, which is just the most amazing thing in the world.
And I'm just thrilled to be here.
I'm thrilled to be talking to you guys and that's what I'm doing with my time.
There's no way people can talk about the weather after that.
Or if they do, you still don't let them bring you down.
How so? What do you mean, how so?
You still don't let them bring you down.
Well, yeah. If they talk about the weather and they're clearly a passive-aggressive bunch of adults, then you don't go on a hike with them.
Right. Right?
You say, oh, well, you know what?
I think I'm feeling a bit of a cold coming on.
I don't think I'm going on this.
Oh, my leg. Whatever, right?
My war wound. Whatever you've got to do to get out of the situation, right?
Right. But I've not once had somebody say to me, they're always curious.
Philosopher? What?
What are you talking about?
They've never even heard of such a thing, right?
Right. You might as well say I'm an alchemist, right?
I mean, it doesn't mean anything, but they're curious, right?
Well, I guess I just need to come up with a way to introduce that into the conversation, then.
What do you mean a way to introduce it into the conversation?
People say, what do you do?
I'm a philosopher. They didn't ask me what I do.
Yes, they did. They did ask.
No, they didn't!
Yes, they asked, what are you doing in Raleigh?
You said, I'm here because I'm disillusioned.
That's not what a philosopher says.
Well, the question was, why am I in Raleigh as opposed to in Chicago anymore?
Not, what am I doing as in my, what's my job?
Well, what you say is, I'm in Raleigh because I needed to cut my costs because I've decided to pursue philosophy full-time.
Which is true. Which is true!
So all you gotta do is say the truth, right?
I think that's got something to do with philosophy, doesn't it?
Honesty? Wait, let me check. B-E-E-F-G-H. Honesty.
Yes, it's right here. Sorry.
Wait, it's right above snarkiness.
There we go. No, that's...
Yeah, that's right. So that's really all I needed to do was just kind of...
Yeah, and so people are just writing here.
I think most people would think you're a bit nuts if you introduced yourself as a philosopher.
Absolutely. But then we go back with this late night shits and giggles thing where you just keep smiling and don't blink.
And then that way...
People will say that you, yeah, they will say, well, how much does that pay?
And you say, oh my god, it pays everything.
It pays everything.
Yes, I don't make as much money as I used to make, but to me, life is about happiness.
It's not about money. And yeah, you need a certain amount to live, and you can't be happy living in a cardboard box, but yeah, it pays beautifully.
It pays everything that you could imagine.
And it does. It does.
It does. It does.
That's absolutely true.
No, I personally, I mean, I wouldn't say it's a hobby.
I mean, even when I was an actor and working as a waiter, I'd say, people say, what do you do?
I'd say, I'm an actor. How much does that pay?
Well, not much right now. I'm working as a waiter, but acting is my thing, or writing, or, you know, whatever, right?
Right, right, right.
Right. I guess I just didn't feel...
Because you say, I want to find all these thinking people, and you introduce yourself as a retard.
I came to Raleigh because I'm disillusioned.
I don't know why I'm here. Can somebody make sure I hold on to the rope?
If you want to find thinking people, appear like a thinking person, right?
Yeah, that was kind of a weak answer.
Although I did get...
They brought up the movie Into the Wild later on, and I did get a few comments in on that that I thought were worthwhile, but nobody...
Well, but you get credibility with people right away, or not, right?
You can't build it later.
Yeah, I guess that's true.
I think the way that I would suggest or invite you to look at it, and this is going to be really freaky, right?
But the way that I would suggest, this is true for everyone.
This is true for everyone who's gone past 12 podcasts, in my opinion, right?
Or something, whatever they've got, right?
That you are full of treasure, right?
Because you have, and you have this incredible knowledge, right?
About RTR, about UPB, about the On Truth book, about all of the stuff we've talked about, the power of dream analysis, the power of the unconscious, the power of...
Philosophy of voluntarism, the fact that we don't need a government, the fact that God doesn't exist, the fact that you're one of the 5,000 people on the world who have approved for ethics, right?
Right, right, right.
You are full of treasure, which people desperately need.
Right? That's true.
I mean, that's just a fact. You are full of...
The world runs on ethics, everybody desperately needs ethics, and ethics, for most people, is manipulative bullshit, right?
Yeah, that's definitely true.
You've got the cure for cancer.
As far as I know.
If you can find a better one, let me know, right?
But we can't spend the rest of our life saying, well, maybe, maybe, maybe, right?
Because that's not what the bad people of the world are doing, right?
No, certainly not.
That's correct. So you're full of treasure.
You're full of what people need.
The problem is convincing them that they need it.
No, no, they know that they need it.
The problem is convincing you that they need it.
What do you mean by that?
Well... You don't believe it.
Sorry? I said we've talked about that before, I think.
Well, it comes as a surprise to you that you're a philosopher, right?
It comes as a surprise to you that you're full of treasure, right?
Well, not so much a surprise as a...
I mean, what...
I've I've I've I've I mean when I try the label on I feel like I'm I'm not
I'm not worthy of the label philosopher?
You feel that? Not worthy of the label full of treasure?
He's missing his toga.
Well, no, but seriously, Greg, I mean, who the fuck is it then?
If you, who have listened to all these podcasts, made these amazing contributions to this conversation, being everybody's fucking guinea pig right behind Steph saying, shit, I hope Greg doesn't step on a minefield, because I'm going in afterwards if he survives, right?
You're like the heat shield on the front of this space shuttle that everyone hopes is going to hold up, right?
Because you're the big guinea pig.
I can say whatever I want, right?
I'm through it all, right? But you're the big fucking guinea pig going through all this shit, right?
That's true. So you've been this total crucifixion dude in this conversation from the very beginning, right?
Everyone's like, hey, let's give it to Greg.
He'll eat anything, right?
I don't know if Steph's theory is any good.
Let's talk about Greg trying it out and see if he survives, right?
You're like, give a trial for this whole goddamn philosophy, right?
That's true. To a certain extent, anyway.
Yeah, to a certain extent, right?
And then there's Nate right behind, saying, well, Greg can't do much in the dating world at the moment, but let's see how this philosophy helps Nate with his dating life, right?
It's just... I shouldn't laugh, because I know parts of it were funny, but...
I mean, the amount that you guys have added to the credibility of this conversation, like, I don't just sit here and say, oh, let's invest a lot into these guys because, fuck, I don't know, I work from home and I need people to talk to, right?
I mean, because the most investment occurred when I was working full-time and newly married, right?
Right. But I did that because you guys were willing to step up and give what it is that we do here some independent verification, right?
Yeah, it works for me.
It is transferable, right?
Because maybe I'm just born freakishly happy, and I make up all this philosophical shit, which can't be transferred, right?
You know, like Pavarotti's singing voice, right?
Right, right, right, right.
But you guys are like, yeah, I took the lessons.
Boy, I can sing, right? That's true.
Well, I mean, to a certain extent.
To a pretty large extent.
I mean, who else was going ahead of you, Greg?
I would say, I mean, if you compare me now to before, like two years ago, I would say it's...
it's It's night and day.
Right. And so, I mean, Nate took a lot of the bullets in terms of dating.
And Greg, I think you were the first Dfue, weren't you?
No, that was me. That was Nate?
Yep. Oh, okay. Sorry.
Well, Nate, I mean, that's fantastic, right?
So you go ahead and give it a shot.
And then we, you know, we recently had when Jake's mom died, you know, conversations about that, because like, these are all things where people put a lot of trust, not so much in me, but in philosophy, but in the way that I communicate.
And some of it is trust in me, because I'm saying, yeah, you'll defoo.
And even if they get hit by a bus, you really won't feel regret, you'll feel relief, right?
Which is totally not what people believe and not what they're told, right?
Like, here, swallow this sword and it'll help your heartburn.
I mean, it just seems completely ridiculous, right?
But people did it and gained relief from it, right?
Yeah, that's true.
If you don't get to be a philosopher because you're second through the door, who does?
That's a good point. But that's what I mean, like in terms of Seeing the reality of what it is that we're doing here, right?
Yeah, you're right about that.
And if you get that about yourself, right, that you are full of gifts, that you are full of light, I mean, again, cheesy ass, I know that, but it's true.
It's true. If you get that you are full of treasure...
And yes, people are scared of that treasure and people are threatened by that treasure, right?
And people will, to some degree, feel shocked and diminished by the presence of a great soul, right?
Of a wise soul, of somebody who's thought deeply and experienced deeply and so on.
And the question is, well, okay, how am I going to get them over that hump?
Well, the only way to get them over the hump of their own fear...
Is with something that they want.
And what they want is not the truth.
And that's true of all of us.
What we want is not the truth.
What we want is not virtue.
What we want is not integrity.
What we want is happiness.
Is happiness. Right.
That is what... All those other things...
Go ahead.
No, no, I'm done. Go ahead. I was just going to say, all those other things are just means to that end.
Yeah! I mean, we don't want to exercise, we want to be healthy.
We don't want to diet, we want to be slender or whatever, right?
We want to be happy.
Everybody wants to be happy, and when they see somebody who's happy, they're like, gotta get me some of that.
Whether they like it or not, that's the irresistible gravity well of FDR. I know that human beings, the gravity well for human beings is happiness.
And so I've just been relentlessly fucking happy, and honestly so, from the beginning.
And I know that no matter how much people hate what I'm talking about, they are irresistibly drawn back because it's what they want.
So to sum all this up, the solution to this, what do we do after we accept the reality of where we're at versus everyone else and the rarity of the type of people we want to connect with,
the solution is to fill that void To be the people that we're not finding.
A thousand podcasts, and he still thinks there's a way to say, so to sum up.
Sorry, just kidding. No, that's a great way of putting it.
I mean, that's a great way of putting it.
That in the absence of greatness, pettiness inflates, right?
In the absence of depth, shallowness spreads.
In the absence of honesty, and what Greg was fundamentally was not honest, right?
And not a liar, and not a bad...
I mean, this is your fear, right?
Yeah, there's a lot of it there.
Your fear that people are going to laugh at you, that people are going to roll their eyes, that you're going to get tongue-tied, that you're going to get frozen, all of that stuff, right?
And all that has to happen is that you, once you get the joy of really connecting with people on this level, then it'll be like, well, I want that, right?
Because you weren't happy on this height.
Not to the extent that I was hoping to be.
No. You weren't happy on this hike because the empirical evidence of your description about the hike was miserable, right?
Well, actually, yeah, it was.
I mean, that's all I'm saying, right?
So your emotions are telling you that that's not the way to do things, right?
Because you're not happy, right?
That's true. I mean, there's more complicated things, but that's not one of them, right?
Yeah. Right, and because you plowed yourself under because of fear, and the fear fundamentally is of being ineffective, right?
If you knew for sure that when you said, I'm a philosopher, that people were going to go like, wow, that's really cool.
Tell us everything about it.
This whole hike is going to be...
I mean, you'd feel a little uneasy, but that would be quite thrilling for you, right?
Yeah, it would be. Right?
So if you knew it was going to work, you'd do it, right?
Yeah.
But the reality is, if you believe it's going to work, it works.
Okay, now you've...
No, this is confidence, right?
I mean, this is just, if you believe that you are full of treasure, people, and it's not conscious, it's not manipulative, if you genuinely believe that you are full of treasure, people will be drawn to ask you about it.
And it's nothing to do with, there's no statement or phrase, or if you stand with your hip cocked this way and shake your hand firmly, but your left hand, not your...
It's nothing like that.
If you... Because remember, 99.9% of everything we communicate has nothing to do with words.
Right? Right.
It's body language. It's the ineffable.
Demeanor. It's the ineffable, right?
We don't know how it all works.
Right? We know it's not spiritual, because there's no spirit, but...
We don't know how any of that works, but we know for sure.
When I realized that I... When I got the DRO thing, I knew that was some pretty good shit.
When I got universally preferable behavior, I knew that was some pretty good shit.
That's treasure. That's gold, right?
Oh, yeah. For sure.
Because of that, because I was sure that it was really, really great stuff, people wanted to know about it.
That's true.
If you hide things that people don't think are valuable, they won't look, right?
Thank you.
Go to someone's house and say, I hid an old rusty spoon somewhere in your backyard, right?
If you say, I buried $10,000 worth of diamonds somewhere in your backyard, how long do you think it's going to take for them to grab a shovel?
Instantaneously.
Right.
You can't stop them, right?
Right.
That's true. That's true.
That's true. And if you can't believe that about FDR, then you should find something that you can believe that about.
Seriously. Because there is such incredible joy in that.
Right? In being full of treasure and really helping people.
Well, and that's just it.
I mean, there really is nothing other than FDR that, I mean, that's why I'm here.
I know. That's why I'm here, too.
And I genuinely believe that there is nothing better than what's going on in the world today.
Nothing. There is nothing that I could conceivably imagine putting my intellectual energies to war that would be better and more important than this.
And I don't mean this even subjectively.
Because if you're a great jazz pianist and you love to play jazz, that's the best thing for you.
I don't think this is the best thing for me.
I think this is the best thing.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly right. So I'm not just full of treasure like I'm good at jazz.
I'm full of treasure for everyone.
Because everybody wants to be happy and I think we've got the way to do it.
And to stay. I think that's absolutely true.
that's going to really catch people's attention, right?
If you believe it, and there's nothing you need to do, there's no technique...
Techniques mean nothing, right?
This is where this Anthony Robbins and I, there's some superficial similarities, but empirically, see, we don't just believe that we've got treasure because we will it, or because we've got big teeth and firm handshakes or whatever, right?
We've proven it.
From the ground fucking up, right?
You just have to be willing to speak up and talk about it.
Well, to accept the empirical reality of what we as a community have developed, which is the very first top-to-bottom proven system of philosophy.
Right, right.
I mean, it's huge. It's huge.
I mean... The last time that was even tried was 6,000 years ago.
It's huge. It's huge.
It's huge. It's huge. And it blows everything out of the water.
And we're not saying anything to people that they don't already accept.
And that's why it gets people so screwed up, right?
And I genuinely believe, like I know I put lots of caveats out there and so on, but that's just so I can get people to read my stuff, right?
Hey, go, you know, so I can get the people who want to go in and find nitpick and fault.
I want to get those people to...
And also because I'm aware that for new listeners the odds are tiny that UPB works, right?
But UPB works.
Well, fundamentally because it's not an ethical system.
No, it's not an ethical system and it can't be opposed without being accepted, therefore it is axiomatic.
And the only way you can reject UPB is to reject reality.
It's all slavishly derived from the properties of matter and energy.
It's very simply just a standard for determining the truth or falsehood of ethical claims.
Right. And you can't say that there's no such thing as ethical claims or it's an invalid standard because that requires UPB. So it is the proof that human beings have been waiting for thousands of years.
I believe it is the proof.
And it's held up pretty hard to some pretty strong knocks.
Donnie with an A. Notwithstanding, God knows what the hell he's doing with it, but I still...
And all he came up with was that, you know, I've read the first two-thirds, and there's lots of little tiny errors.
It's like, really?
That's all you've got?
If you're not excited, then you're a tool, right?
Frankly, if you're not excited about that, then that's like saying, well, you know, this theory of evolution is really good, but there's some gaps in it.
Okay, if you're not excited about the origin of life...
Anyway, but...
So we have this incredible treasure.
We have this amazing, incredible treasure.
And we are a very, very small group of people who have it.
Right? Yeah.
Yeah. And if you get that, and all you have to do is mull that over.
I don't ever talk about technique, because it doesn't ever work.
It's innately false.
I don't sit there and practice sounding happy.
I just work on being happy and commit to being honest and open about that.
Well, and working on being happy, from the sound of it then, or from what I can infer from this conversation then, it basically just means focusing on the things that make you happy.
Yeah, for sure.
Whatever is going to make you happy within the rational context of what we're doing, but with the full recognition that we are full of gold, we are full of platinum, we are full of diamonds, we are full of treasure right now.
Now, in the future, there's going to be inflation, right?
There's going to be lots of people who know this stuff, right?
But right now, there are very few.
That's true. Even with all the internet, there are just very few.
And ideally, this becomes completely inflated, right?
Because ideally, you want everybody to have it, right?
Oh, totally. Absolutely.
Completely and totally. But that's generations off, right?
But this is a real singularity point of incredible glory, in my opinion, right?
And if you're not full of that possibility and power, then you need to meditate on that to fill yourself up with it.
And if you can't do it here, and I don't think there's any other place to do it, but if it turns out that you want to be a jazz musician and that gives you that sense of power and glory, then that's what you should do, right?
Right. Right.
No, that's true. That's a good point.
So we don't meet thinking people.
We make thinking people.
So ultimately, what I really needed to do was just stay focused on that and not let...
And let what happens happen.
You stay focused on the depth and power of what it is that you're doing.
And you just let what happens, but you just stay.
There's something that this crazy-ass monk guy, the Dalai Lama, said once.
He said, you know, like I said, I spend two hours each morning meditating and shaping my intention.
And I think that that's a silly way of putting it, but I think that there's some valuable truth in that, right?
To remember who it is that we are and what it is that we're trying to do.
And that we've already succeeded enormously.
Is fantastic, right?
And God knows I'm only a small part of that, right?
Because there's a whole community out there of people talking about it and pissing off about it, getting pissed off about it and fighting about it and so on, right?
But... That's a very good point.
What? No, just the...
Just the need for...
to sort of revisit the the the core perspective view of what it is we're doing here from time to time to stay in order not to get lost in in the day to day details
right? Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's a challenge for everyone who's involved in this, right?
Because it's just so ridiculous that we should have this This thing, right?
Whatever it is. It's just ridiculous that we should have this, but here it is, right?
And it's validated, and it's proven, and it's gold, and we're stuck with it, right?
And it is hard to remember, of course, right?
But that's what we're up to, right?
Right, right. That's true.
Well, I think continuing to learn to negotiate with ourselves, myself, I know that that lately has been what's really spurred on a lot of boosts in my happiness.
Oh, the MECO system?
Yeah, the MECO system thing.
I look back at it and is this really me talking?
This is like other part of me?
Because it just doesn't...
It's like surprising me every time.
Right, but that's why we get bowled over so much, right?
We get bowled over so much because we disagree with ourselves and haven't integrated that.
So then when other people disagree with us, they hook into our disagreements with ourselves and they paralyze us, right?
Right. And you know...
Actually, that brings up an interesting point, Nate, because that discussion that you and I were having about the post I put out there on Saturday, I wasn't having that debate with her.
She was just asking me questions.
I was having that debate almost entirely with myself.
She literally only asked me three questions.
Oh, I just misread it then, I guess.
I was just going by what you read.
But that's...
I mean, that's...
I was just reminded of that from what Steph was just saying, that disagreements with ourselves...
Or what people identify in us.
Yeah, that's very true.
If I could just figure out how to negotiate with this bully, I could really start to take things on.
It'll come. It'll come. You're doing fantastic with that stuff.
So let me ask one additional question around this that kind of goes to something you were saying in the chat window earlier.
But I guess it's just a peripheral concern I have now after all this.
This was just like a generic social group without any particular focus on dating or relationships or anything like that.
It was a mixed group of married and unmarried people.
Right. Do you think that was just another avoidance technique?
Oh yeah, no, no question.
Yeah, I mean, it was an avoidance technique.
You're Simon the Boxer As being awkward and rejected, right?
I guess that's true Right, so, I mean, you didn't go there as a luminous being of light to be thrilled, right?
Well, and wouldn't that be...
If my expectation was to be thrilled, wouldn't that be unrealistic?
You don't know that, do you?
because you haven't tried being thrilled and seeing what happens.
Well, now you're confusing me.
Thank you.
Well, if you go and you are full of treasure, right?
that changes the way that people interact with you.
Okay.
All right.
I see what you're saying.
So if you go there with the expectation of being full of treasure and so on, right?
And being happy to be there...
It changes the entire interaction.
It doesn't mean that everything goes your way, God knows, right?
But it does change fundamentally the entire interaction.
Well, I was kind of excited to go, but...
It just didn't...
I mean, it was too easy to find reasons to get irritated.
Right, right. You want to hoard your treasure.
You're like Smog, right?
You want to, because you're angry at the world, right?
You still feel a lot of resentment, which of course I understand, right?
But that's still a slave thing.
It's like, well, the world took from me, so I'm going to withhold from the world, right?
Well, I mean, how do you get rid of that?
Well, you can't get rid of it.
It's your experience, right?
It's who you are. It's what actually happened.
You can't get rid of it. You can't make up a different past, right?
No, that's true. No, I mean the resentment and all that.
How do you get rid of it?
Oh, well, you just have to stop.
You have to get what it costs you, right?
It's like, how do you stop drinking if you're an alcoholic?
Well, you recognize it's going to cost you everything, right?
True. What does it cost you?
It costs you intimacy.
It costs you feelings of power and efficacy.
It costs you a community that's around you.
Like, it costs you a lot, right?
So you say, okay, well, I could take this road.
I know what it's going to cost me.
And that doesn't make it go away or anything.
I know it's complicated and this and that, right?
But there is that fundamental thing.
It's like you let things slide until you get what it costs you, right?
Yeah, I see what you mean.
Um...
I see what you mean.
So, I'm not really...
I'm not really understanding the cost, I guess.
Yeah, and that's because you haven't experienced what the other side is like, right?
Where you go there not with the goal, fundamentally, of increasing your resentment against the planet.
You go there with the idea that there is good in so many people that they just can't access, and that people do want to be happy, and they have no idea how to do it, because everybody lies to them.
Right. And they're lying to themselves, too.
Well, that's harder to say, because...
Yeah, you could be right, but I think that's more cynical.
It's hard to say that they're lying to themselves if they've never heard the truth, right?
That's true. You're right.
Everybody is propagandized and so on, right?
They just don't know the truth.
You have the truth. They don't know the truth and they've never heard the truth because the truth, frankly, as we talk about it, is very new.
That's a good point. Just operating on false assumptions because they don't know any better.
Yeah, and my God, how could they?
Right? I mean, fuck.
I mean, if it did take 5,000 years for humanity to figure out, can we blame people for not knowing it?
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
So I guess what I mean is, more specifically, is if you think this idea of Just looking for generic social interaction as a kind of warm-up step is a good idea or whether I should be taking a different approach.
You've got to stop trying to work from the outside in, man.
That's the one piece of advice I would give you.
Stop trying to find the fucking plan.
There is no route through the maze.
Work on understanding what it is that you're doing.
What it is that you know, how incredibly valuable what you know is, how everybody does want to be happy but they're confused and they're frightened and they're only going to make the leap if they see some real happiness, right?
Not a little bit of happiness or I'll be happy if you, you know, show interest in me or if they sense non-pettiness, if they sense real depth and wisdom, right?
Then wherever you go and whatever you do will work.
Oh, I see. Yeah, okay.
What is my intention, right?
What is my intention with my interactions with people, right?
What is my intention with the amazing knowledge that I have?
I mean, it's an internal process.
There's no... Okay, well, if you join an archery club, you'll find true love, right?
I mean, there's just no way to do any of that, right?
Right. It's having the trust...
Of knowing how our unconscious is constantly scanning and reading everyone and everything and everywhere around us.
That there's this incredible spider web of unconscious communication going on all the time, which is pretty scientifically proven now with all this blink stuff, right?
Yeah, that's true.
If you tap into that stuff, you don't have to figure out a route, right?
You fly out of the maze, you don't have to figure out, right?
Left or right? Right.
Right, that's a tough skill to master.
Yeah, it's just an acceptance of a reality, right?
Because I'm not saying, you know, you were a golden god for no reason and you should, you know, master, you can fly through the universe at a whim, right?
We've done the work to prove this shit, right?
From the ground up, both logically and empirically and experientially, right?
Right. I mean, I wrote Crazy Talk like nine years ago.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I've got almost a decade of putting this shit into practice and it works beautifully and you guys got a couple of years under your belt and it's working.
This is just something we know.
And we have all the syllogistic proof in the world, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
We got the logic, we got the science, we got the experiential evidence.
At some point, we've just got to accept that we're right.
I mean, just reasonably, right?
Well, I mean, the alternative is a constant state of apoplexy.
Yeah, yeah, paralysis and self-doubt.
Self-doubt is good, but at some point, we've just got to accept that we're right.
Because all the bad people in the world already believe that they're right, so what are we going to do with nail-biting and worrying, and let's check over the syllogisms one more time?
I figure, I mean, this is why FDR didn't come out of nowhere.
FDR came out of seven years, or six years, seven years almost, of living this stuff, right?
sure that's why it started with a bang right with a bang I mean what I mean It didn't start tentatively, right?
Oh, I see what you're saying.
No, that's true. Yeah, you came out of the box with...
Hit the ground running.
Yeah, right away with the morality stuff and the DROs.
Oh yeah, proving libertarian morality is certainly below 20 in terms of the number of podcasts.
So two down, five to go.
What's that? Two down, five to go.
I'm not sure what that means. Talk about me and Greg.
Who are the five? Years.
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, I see what you mean.
Yeah, no, but see, the thing is, you guys get the meal pre-chewed and pre-digested, so it's not like you're swallowing broken glass like I was, right?
So it's a little bit easier for the second time around, it's easier for the third, and that's the whole reason it's going to spread, right?
Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, you won't have to be at it for quite as long, I think.
But yeah, it's just, I mean, we're doing this thing and it is the most powerful thing that's going on in the world at the moment.
And it's completely ridiculous and a complete ridiculous chance.
I mean, you might as well expect to win the lottery 10 times in a row, but that's the way it is.
And we've proven it six ways from Sunday.
It's true. It's valid.
It's treasure, and we can either live like it is true, and we have that treasure, or we can be tentative and keep it for the board, right?
So you think that my doing this, just working on being, just working on being, oh.
how did you believe it? Powerful and valuable or whatever it is that, you know, the reality of what it is that we have.
Right. Being assertive and happy about this stuff.
That's necessary but not...would you say that that's both necessary and sufficient or just necessary but not sufficient to say reach the end goal of I'm not going to answer another one of your questions about is it going to be this or is it going to be that.
Because you've just got to do it.
And I'm not asking you to will anything.
I'm just asking you to accept a reality that what we've got is proven.
So logistically, experientially, scientifically, empirically, it's proven.
Well, I do accept that.
No, you don't. Because if you did accept it, then you would accept that you are full of the most amazing knowledge on the planet at the moment.
If you really got that...
If you really got that, the way that you interact with people would just change completely.
And I don't know what that would look like.
Right? But if you just accepted that as something that's not willed but understood and proven, see what it's like.
Just accept that and wake up every morning, put it on your...
We are full of the most amazing knowledge in the world at the moment, perhaps ever.
I'm gonna try and remember that for the next week.
However ridiculous it seems.
I'm gonna try and remember that for the next week.
Right? Alright.
I'll do that.
And that's all that you need to do.
Okay.
Ah, there's the voice of a true believer.
Okay. Fine.
It's fine. I'm full of the most fucking great knowledge.
Great now. Where's my goodies?
Right now. People aren't congregating in my apartment yet.
No, I'm just...
I'm... I'm agreeing with you, and I'm gonna do it.
I'm gonna just...
I'm gonna... I'm going to try that.
You mean you're going to try and believe something that is true?
I'm not sure what that means.
Well, I'm going to wake up every morning and remind myself of it.
Yeah, right. Because it's true, right?
Sure, sure. Sure?
I'm not sure what sure means.
That's sort of a yes-no thing.
If it's not true, then we'll get back to work on our theories again, right?
Well, why would he have to remind himself of something that's true every morning?
Because it's wildly improbable that we are the crazy internet group who've got this amazing knowledge, right?
And it's so counter to how we're raised, which is to be small and to be deferential and to be polite and to be petty.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
I was saying sure with regard to what it was I was going to do, not the actual truth itself.
No, you said I'm going to try, right?
I'm going to try to believe the truth.
No, I said I was going to try and every morning wake up and remind myself of it.
Okay, got it.
Okay, so yeah, so just try and just, like, seriously, stick it on your monitor, right?
I mean, it is that fundamental.
I have to remind myself of it, right?
And I've been living it for almost a decade.
And that truth being...
That we are full of the most amazing knowledge and we have...
We are a tiny group full of the most amazing knowledge that everybody desperately needs.
And once, deep down.
Right, and that actually is true.
That is true. Yeah, it is true.
And that will change how you interact with people, and you won't even know how or why it's changing.
It just will. I will definitely work on that.
All right. Alright, so I'm going to go to bed.
Yeah, it's getting late. It's almost getting early.
Alright, no, it's a good chat, though.
It's a good chat. I hope that this was helpful.
Yeah, I think it was great.
Interesting. Interesting.
I think it was a bit more than that.
I think it was really helpful for me for...
My latest conversation that I've had with myself, so it's shed some new lights on it.
Good stuff. All right, well, I'll...
Good lord, we've got to stop producing so much video.
See, and we're just going to have to lash people in isolation chambers and let them out after 12 months, right?
But okay, I'll clean this up tomorrow and send it around.
But yeah, I think this is pretty much, let's not make this podcast zero.
We are golden gods. Right.
All right, man. Talk to you later.
All right. Bye.
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