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March 7, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:10:57
1003 Peeling Paint from the Wall - A Listener DeFOO Conversation

Turning the spotlight on a religious mother...

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Time Text
Hey, good morning, Steph.
Hi, how's it going? Oh, wait a minute, I've got to turn up my volume.
Okay, try that again? Uh, yes, uh, trying again.
Okay, great. Are you getting an echo?
No, no, it sounds great.
Okay, great. Okay, our situation is that my mother-in-law is a really manipulative person, and my wife, through our conversations that I've had that I've learned from FDR, is just beginning to really realize that.
So she's considering defooing from her.
But she wants to be sure of her issues beforehand, so I suggested that she talk to you.
Sure, I'd be happy to step her through.
I hope she doesn't hate the fact that you found the show to begin with, because that's going to be a different situation, right?
It's like, you bastard, now you've liberated me, I actually have to be free?
Or is she...
She secretly likes the show, just is sometimes kind of anxious about listening to it, because she knows it'll change her.
At least I think so.
That's not it at all.
Okay, well, I'm going to put you on with her, okay?
Let's put her on.
Okay. Hello?
Hi, how's it going? It's going okay.
Now, just to remind you, I do record these conversations because, you know, I do this as a show, but that doesn't mean that this goes out as a show.
That just means I record it, and then I'm going to give you a copy.
If I think it's going to be useful for other people, and given your situation, I think it will be, I'll certainly ask that we can release it, but it's totally up to you.
So feel free to speak freely.
This is not going out without your permission.
I just wanted to say that up front.
Okay. Sounds good.
Okay, so let us hear the tale.
What is going on with your mother, or guess what has been going on with your mother?
Oh, boy.
And take your time.
We'll start at the beginning, and let's have some detail.
Okay. Like, how far in the beginning?
Wherever you feel the story starts is where I think the story starts.
I guess when I met my husband, Tim, and I was going through...
Okay, I was raised Christian, Southern Baptist, whatever.
And when I got to be about 18 years old, I started looking around at other religions because I wasn't really happy with it, and I felt really persecuted in the church and all.
I didn't really talk to my mother about it.
I was just doing it.
And then I met Tim. Sorry.
What was it that led you to feel persecuted within your church?
Oh, um... I never felt like I fit in.
I felt like it was hypocritical, a lot of things that went on.
I don't really know.
I can't think of a specific thing right now.
That's no problem. Did you feel that you were being persecuted, or if you spoke your mind, you would be persecuted?
Yes, if I spoke my mind, I would be persecuted.
Right, so there was a kind of a growing tension, and I'm just trying to understand it, because I think this is important.
There was kind of a growing tension between the thoughts that you were having internally and what you felt, and I think quite rightly so, what you felt could be expressed in the environment you were in there.
Yeah. Okay.
Definitely. Definitely. Okay.
So, when I met Tim, he introduced me to paganism, and I started to learn things.
Well, anyway, I was already interested in Wicca, but he was just, like, giving me more information and stuff.
So, that's what I decided I wanted to try.
And then our relationship just like blossomed from there and we were dating and Got engaged and married and everything.
And my mother has just really felt that he's been kind of like the snake in the tree.
And he's the one who influenced my decision to leave Christianity.
Isn't that more the snake in the garden?
Or the snake in the tree in the garden, right?
I mean, this is the serpent, the evil, right?
Yes. Yeah.
And I've tried to tell her that no, that's not what it was at all.
And I had my own thoughts that he had nothing to do with.
And that it was my choice completely.
And she just has never accepted that.
And that has started...
That was like the beginning of the tension between us.
Because... I felt like she wasn't listening to me.
I still feel like she's not listening to me because I'm trying to tell her this was my decision.
Nobody else's. And I can tell that she's not accepting that answer at all.
And even though we don't talk about it very often, it's still...
Like, I heard from my sister-in-law just the other night that whenever my beliefs come up, it's, oh, her beliefs.
You know, really derogatory kind of thing.
And I'm like, that's...
I just don't feel that's right.
And of course, if they were to try that with your mother's beliefs in the Christian God, she would get...
Everybody would be shocked and appalled, right?
That's her faith you're talking about, right?
Yeah. Right.
And, um... Really, what kind of kicked this off was I was over at my mom's house recently, like two weeks ago, because of my son's birthday party.
And I stayed a few days afterwards to hang out with my sister-in-law because she's living with my mom and dad right now.
And we were in the kitchen just talking and something came up about how my mom and my husband don't really have a relationship at all.
And they both kind of like complain about the other one to me and I hate that.
And so then mom was like, well, the reason I don't talk to Tim is because he's irrational and illogical.
And so she just can't talk to him.
Yeah, I thought that was really funny.
And, you know, so that really angered me and I got kind of defensive for my husband.
And I was like, like, that's not what it is at all.
You're just not listening to him because you feel that you already know everything.
So it just started a whole big fight and it got into the religion stuff again.
And she was saying that I am the roadblock between my children and salvation.
And at this point, I was just sitting there listening to what she's saying to me and thinking that you don't even care about me anymore.
All you care about is my kids, is what you're saying.
And You know, I'm all of a sudden the evil person here because my children aren't being allowed to be exposed to her religion and stuff.
And that was really kind of like eye-opening, like I could see that she's just having the tribe mentality and stuff.
Yeah. Do you want me to, and I don't want to interrupt you at all, but I've had a couple of thoughts about the thing, some things that you've said so far, which, again, I don't want to interrupt your flow, but I also don't want us to drift too far, because otherwise we won't remember what we were talking about before, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Okay.
What I get a strong sense of, do you mind if I use your name, or do you want to keep that off?
No, that's fine. My name is Jennifer.
Jennifer, okay. Jennifer?
Jennifer. So, Jenny Pooh?
Yes. Okay, no problem with that?
Okay. So, Jennifer, what I get a strong sense of, which doesn't mean anything other than I just get a strong sense of it, so you can let me know if it makes sense.
I get a strong sense that you have a kind of blended narrative here, and what I mean by that is that There's your experience and then there's your mother's story or interpretation or mythology, as I call it sometimes, about your experience.
So for instance, you said that when you got married, that was the start of the tension between you and your mother.
Uh-huh. Now, I guarantee you, that's not the case.
I mean, I'm not psychic.
I don't even believe in psychic things.
But for sure, it was not, given who your mother is, and given who you are, at least what I sense about you, there's no possibility that...
Your relationship with your mother was warm and respectful and loving and intimate and free and wonderful, and then you married that rat bastard Tim, and then by God, he pulled you into his satanic hole of paganism or whatever, and then everything. Now, your mother, though, has a story which I would fully expect, which says, we had a great relationship until you met that rat bastard Tim, right?
Probably. So your experience of your mother is not that things were great, and then you met this guy, and then everything went to hell.
But I bet you that's her story, right?
Uh-huh. And so I think that one of the reasons you're fighting her so hard is she's kind of up in your head, right?
Exactly. You also said...
I'm not picking, I'm just sort of pointing out the things that struck me.
You said that when she was talking about you standing between your children's entry to the pearly gates and off into the fiery pit of perdition or whatever, you said that you were looking at her and you realized that she doesn't care about you, she only cares about your kids.
Uh-huh. Now, I can guarantee you that if she doesn't care about you, then she sure as hell doesn't care about your kids.
Okay. Now, she would like you to believe that she really cares about your children.
But if religion is a poisonous ideology, if it is a soul and mind-destroying, sick story, which she wants to infect your children with, it's hard to understand how she could claim, legitimately claim, to really care about your children, right?
I care for your kids so much I want to infect them with guilt and conformity, self-hatred and belief in the poisonous fairy tale many years ago.
That's not love. That's not caring, right?
I can't say to my wife, I really care about you and I'm going to give you directions about how to get to the doctor's and then give her the completely wrong directions.
If I knowingly gave her the completely wrong directions, that would not be a loving act, right?
Right. And so, if your mother is desperate, and of course, religion reproduces by feasting on the young and corrupting the young.
And so, your mother wants to get her hooks in, because that's what religious people want to do, is get their hooks into the kids, right?
But it's not because she cares about them, right?
In fact, it's quite the opposite.
Right.
Right. Right.
Right. I've noticed that actually because I felt kind of like I made the decision that I wasn't going to seek my mother's approval anymore because I feel like that's what's been causing my personal anguish through this is because I've still wanted her approval.
And by, like, separating myself from that, I just, I feel lighter, you know?
Sorry, I really, really do apologize for interrupting you again.
It's very rude. But I just wanted to mention something else.
Now, I think, I'm not sure if you were aware that you just did it again.
And now maybe you're aware of it, but I just wanted to double check.
What? Well, you don't want your mother's approval.
Uh-huh. Right?
Right. I mean, this is my opinion, my strong opinion.
Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter.
You can let me know. But your mother is not somebody whose opinion you really respect.
Is she? Right.
I mean, not really, right?
She's a religious cultist, she's mean, she's manipulative, whatever, right?
Right. So, if...
If I know that a doctor is really bad and gets his patients killed all the time, I'm not going to be desperate to seek out his advice, right?
Right. So you don't want your mother's approval because you don't respect your mother's opinion, right?
Right. She wants you to want her approval because that gives her power over you.
Right. Right. It's very important.
You don't want your mother's approval.
She wants you to want her approval because then she can withhold it and torture you, right?
Yeah. I can see that.
So I just wanted to make sure that was fully conscious for you, right?
Because you say, well, I've decided I don't want my mother's approval anymore, but I don't think you ever did.
Your mother wanted that.
Your mother wanted you trailing after her begging for approval, right?
But you never wanted that because you don't respect her.
Yeah. Yeah. So this is what I mean, like, sorry, I'll stop now, but I just wanted to, this is how deep it is that we have to pull ourselves apart.
It's like separating co-joined twins sometimes when we've grown up with really manipulative parents.
They get so far in our head, it's like trying to pull paint off a wall sometimes to separate our opinions and experience from their manipulations, if that makes sense.
Yeah. No, I see it.
It's just really hard to actually do it, like you say.
Yeah. But I do see it.
I've seen it for a long time now because there's, like, all these things that I'll do or say or something, and I'm like, oh, my mother would just so cringe kind of thing because she's still up there.
And, yeah.
Okay. So, and I have no problem if you go somewhere else, but I think we need to go a little further back in time.
To have a look at the stuff that happened a little earlier in your relationship with your mother.
Because I have a view, the adult relationship with our parents is merely an effect of the early childhood relationship that we have with them, right?
Which tends to replicate in a dismal photocopying kind of way.
But if you wanted to talk about something else, that's totally fine.
And I promise you we will get to the DFU stuff, but I just wanted to get a bit of a mental map of your early experiences with your mother.
Um... Hmm...
I'm not sure where to go to start telling you about my early experiences.
Okay. Well, can you tell me...
Sorry, you were going to say?
I was going to say that the other night, this was actually going through my head again, so I sat down and wrote out kind of like a thing that I wanted to say to my mom.
And it started basically saying that I feel that she hasn't really taught me Anything positive in the way that she raised me.
Because I can see how she taught me a lot of fear.
Like, a lot of fear.
Fear for her and fear for the world.
Because my mom has always been very cautious.
And she's always, like, afraid of what could happen.
And she very much instilled that in me.
Because when something scares me or something, I will immediately run through, like, a bazillion things that could happen.
And I know that that just comes from my mom.
And also, I learned...
I feel I learned a fear of rejection because she didn't listen to me as a kid.
It was very much, yeah, okay, honey, go play.
You know, like whenever I wanted to share something that I felt strongly about or whatever.
And I know because of that, I didn't really confide in my parents about anything.
anything, I would confide in my friends because my friends actually cared about what I said.
And I forget what else I put on there right now.
Oh, thank you, honey.
what sort of discipline did you experience as a child from your mother?
Mom Mom wasn't like really in Really involved... Well, okay.
No. Mom would discipline by...
With her voice.
By, like, yelling.
Although she didn't, like, right away go to yelling.
I viewed mom as, like, you didn't want to get mom mad because mom didn't get mad very easily, like dad did.
But when mom got mad, she really blew up at you.
And... Sorry, what did blowing up at you mean?
What would that sound like?
What would she say?
Like screaming, yelling, following you around the house for a good half an hour or so, going on and on about what you did wrong or why she was mad at you kind of thing.
I mean, it was like a big ordeal.
And was there any name-calling involved in this?
Like, you're lazy, you're stupid, you're irresponsible, you're...
You know, whatever, right? Um...
I don't remember names being directed at me.
I remember names...
I think there were names directed at my brother.
Um... Right. And I'm assuming that Tim doesn't scream at you for half an hour, right?
No. Right.
I mean, that's not part of your relationship, right?
But if he did that, would you consider that to be abusive?
Yes. Yes, I would agree.
Yeah. Okay, so we've got anger used as a tool of domination and humiliation, which is kind of verbally abusive, in my opinion.
So we have a history of non-attachment, right?
You didn't feel secure.
You can't feel secure around somebody who has the capacity to treat you in this way, because it means you get that they fundamentally don't empathize with you.
Right. You don't have a strong bond.
You don't have a strong sense of attachment.
And you kind of had one of these walking on eggshells childhoods, right?
Yeah. I felt a little bit outside of my family.
It was just me and my brother and then my parents.
And my brother was diagnosed with ADD. I don't know if that really had anything to do with it, but they were always dealing with Justin.
I always felt like I was abandoned and lonely and misunderstood and pretty invisible too.
Part of it was I didn't want to get involved in that, so I would try to stay out of trouble or at least be very good at going behind my parents' back so that I would stay out of it.
But I also know that I was a little bit starved for attention because they were giving it all to Justin's troubles because he was always in trouble at the same time.
And you said that your father had a bad temper?
Dad was short-tempered, and Dad did spank, and Mom did some spanking, but not nearly as much as Dad.
And she says it's because she grew up in a very abusive home, and so she didn't really like it, but whatever.
So it was her feelings that were important, right?
Yeah. Good point.
Yeah. Right, don't hit the kids because I don't like it, right?
Yeah, basically.
And my dad has always, my mom steamrolls over my dad and he lets her, like, always, but that's another issue.
Okay, now let me just, I'm just going to point out a couple of things about your use of language.
And I'm just going to – this is just optional ways of looking at it that to me would make more sense, which again, I wasn't there.
This is just my thoughts and opinions, right?
Now, you said that your mother taught you a lot of fear.
Now, I'm going to say why that seems odd to me as a phrase and then you can tell me if it makes any sense.
And this is an over-the-top question.
So I apologize for that.
It's just the only one I can think of.
If I am kidnapped, right?
And somebody locks me in a basement, right?
And I don't know, like pulls my fingernails out or some horrible thing like that, right?
Then I wouldn't say that that person taught me a lot of fear.
Right? Okay.
What would I say? Right.
You would say that they made me very afraid.
They inflicted a lot of pain on me.
Well, okay.
But that's a little bit different, right?
Because if you say, my mother taught me a lot of fear, it's like she's teaching you some third-party thing.
But if she said, she inflicted a lot of fear on me, or she hurt me with a lot of fear, then she's doing it to you.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Which I'm guessing is more accurate.
I'm guessing, right? That's just sort of my thought.
And then the language...
Sorry, does that make any sense?
Or does it just sound like total hair-splitting?
It makes sense, but...
I can't remember if I was actually...
No, I was afraid of Mom.
Of course you were. She was following you around the house.
She had a slow burn, then erupting volcanic temper.
She was verbally abusive.
I mean, that's why I asked if Tim would do it now, you'd be terrified, right?
Anybody would, right?
But this is a woman who's like four times your size, who has complete control over you, and she's like terrifying.
Yeah. Yeah. See, I remember better being afraid of Dad's temper, because he was like, he'd go off quicker than Mom would, and start yelling, and I was afraid of Dad yelling at me more than Mom,
really. Well, but then you were also, of course, part of you was as we all are, because, and I've said this before, I don't know if you've ever heard it in one of the shows, but there's always one parent that kind of gets away from the rap, so to speak.
Which is completely unrealistic, right?
If your dad was yelling at you or was hitting you, then your mother, of course, should have immediately intervened, right?
Uh-huh. So she doesn't get off the hook.
There's no such thing as a worse parent.
Uh-huh. Does that make any sense?
I mean, if you disagree, that's fine.
It's just my theory, right? It's just my thoughts.
Yeah. No, I don't.
I agree. But you, yeah, it just sounds a little bit like you have like a, there's the bronze bad parent and then there's the gold bad parent, so to speak, and they're on different levels.
That is not usually the case.
And again, the reason that I would, the reason, sorry, are your parents still together?
Yes. Okay.
Now, when you were talking about your relationship or role around the family, you used...
What I call Swiss.
Because Swiss is a neutral country.
Switzerland is a neutral country throughout most of the 20th century and the wars and so on.
And I have a lot of listeners who like to move to Switzerland.
And what that means is that they have very neutral language when it comes to...
And there's also a foggy...
Switzerland is very foggy, apparently, because there's lots of language that is used that is vague.
And I'll just give you some examples here.
You said, I felt a little bit outside...
My family? Uh-huh.
I felt kind of abandoned.
I felt pretty invisible.
I felt a little bit starved for attention.
Uh-huh. Does that...
Does you see the pattern there?
Yeah. I'm, like, minimalizing.
Oh, yeah. It's like, oh, no, no, no.
Just throw me a hunk of bread every day.
I'm full. Thank you.
I'm just... And, you know, if you could just crack the window so I get three oxygen molecules, that'll be fine.
I'll be kind of... So I would just, and the reason that I sort of point this out is because you have a desire to speak the truth, and your parents have, and your mom in particular, has a desire for you not to speak the truth, right? Right.
Right, so you try and squeak a little truth out from this inner conflict, right, where you want to speak the truth, but you've got all these traps and censorship within you for speaking the truth.
So you kind of give, you crack the window a little, hey, did you see anything?
Boo! I'm here.
Come on. I'm in the wind, right?
I'm in your pants. I'm here. Come on.
So it's like you're like the peripheral vision sufferer, right?
That's happening over here. You look and then you're like humping and sewing or something, right?
So when you say I felt a little bit outside my family, What that means to me, logically, would be, well, I was 90-95% in my family and 5-10% out of my family, but I bet you if you tried to tell me how you were actually inside your family, you wouldn't come up with much of anything.
Or would you?
Is there a way that you can describe being inside your family?
Because it's a little bit kind of abandoned.
Like, what does kind of abandoned mean?
I mean, in a sense, you get abandoned or you don't, right?
I don't know. I... I don't know.
Well, what would it mean to you emotionally if you were to say, I felt abandoned, I felt utterly outside my family, I felt completely invisible and totally starved for attention?
Because those are just statements of feelings, right?
They're not statements of fact.
Yeah. If I'm on a beach and it's windy, and my wife says, I feel cool because she's in a bikini, and I say, I feel hot because I'm in a snowsuit, this isn't just statements of experience, right? Right.
So if you say, well, I felt outside my family.
I felt abandoned. I felt invisible.
I felt starved for attention.
Those are just statements of feeling, right?
Nobody can argue with you about that.
I mean, obviously, your family would say, you weren't at all starved for attention.
I mean, this is ridiculous.
But that would be statements of fact, right?
They're not dealing with your statements of experience.
And that differentiation between those two, I think, is very important for you.
Because doesn't it occur that whenever you say something about your history, your past, or your experience of your family, that people just tell you that you're wrong?
Yeah.
Okay, so how does that conversation go for you?
I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking me to...
Sorry, it's not your fault.
I'm not being very clear.
If you were to say to your mother, I felt abandoned as a child, I felt invisible, and I felt starved for attention, what would she say?
I've actually had that conversation with my mom, and she says...
What did she say? She said that she realizes that they weren't always there for me because they were dealing with Justin.
And she's sorry for that, but she can't really do anything about it because it's in the past.
And they did the best they could, given a difficult circumstance, right?
Yeah. This is not uncommon to you, Jennifer.
Everybody goes through the same thing.
When we have dysfunctional parents, we sit down with them, as I think is a reasonable thing to do, and to say, this was my experience of the family.
And parents do two things.
They make excuses, and they minimize.
Now, they can't terrorize, and they can't bully, and they can't abuse, and they can't do all of that nonsense, because we're adults, right?
So it would be kind of ridiculous, like saying, go to your room, right?
Right. But they will always provide excuses and they will minimize your experience.
They will never say, tell me more, tell me more about how you feel.
Or they'll talk about their own feelings, right?
So when somebody says, well, it was a difficult situation, we did the best we thought we could, then that, of course, is an excuse.
When they say, well, there's nothing I can do about it now, that is both an excuse and a minimization and so on, right?
But they never actually ask you how you feel, right?
Right. So it's not like the pattern is over, right?
Right. You say, I feel invisible, and they say, invisible?
We can't even see you, right?
Well, I guess they still keep feeling invisible, right?
Right. Say, I felt outside the family, and they say, well, there's nothing we could do, and we don't care about how you feel now, because it's all in the past.
It's like, hey, this feels familiar.
I think I've just confirmed that.
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
So, the issue did not arise with you getting married, right?
Right. And the persecution that you initially talked about in the church was persecution that you feared from, not the church, but from your mother, right?
Yes. If I tell her the truth about my thoughts about God or religion or other things that I'm thinking, she is going to persecute me.
Yes. And you know that...
And she has. She has, right?
That was your thesis as a kid, and it's been amply confirmed with empirical evidence as an adult, right?
Uh-huh. What is your urge...
Where does your urge to fight with your mom come from, do you think?
Because you... I'm guessing, based a little bit on what you said, but you kind of want to get into it a bit with her, right?
Right. Right. Why?
Because I'm not quite ready to give up and I want her to accept me for For the person that I am and the choices that I've made and not always hang it over my head that, oh, you left Christianity and stuff like that.
And can I interrupt you again with a thousand, thousand and one apologies?
But when you say that you're not ready to give up, empirically that's not true.
And again, I'm not even going to hang my hat on an opinion here.
I'll actually step out into empirically, right?
Because you've had year after year after year after year of not being honest with your mother, right?
Right. So from the age, from the dawn of the zygote to where you are now, or at least until recently, right?
Right. You have totally given up on your mother.
Right. In the past, right?
Yes. So when you say, I'm not ready to give up on my mother, that is not true.
Because given the history of your relationship, you have given up the very hope, thought, or idea of being visible to your mother, your entire relationship.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm sorry to pound this point, there's not a big long thread of you having this hope and this belief and so on, and now you're thinking of giving it up.
You're trying to dig up something that you buried as dead from the beginning.
If I don't have a car for 20 years, right?
I don't have a car for 20 years, and you've known me for 20 years, and then I walk up to you and say, you know, Jennifer, I'm thinking of getting rid of my car.
Okay.
That would be kind of silly, right?
Yes. Right?
Or if I come up to you and I say, Jennifer, you know, I really have hope that my car can be fixed.
I think it's really broke.
I hope it can be fixed.
By God, if it could be fixed, I'd be happy.
Uh-huh. Now, maybe you should say to me, okay, first of all, you need to tweak the old meds a little there, Steph, but secondly, if you need a car, you should get a car, but right now you don't have one, right?
Uh-huh. So you bring to the table no hope, a history of no hope.
Now, there is somebody, though, who wants you to have hope.
My mother. Do you see?
It's like pulling the paint off a wall.
Sort of. I would question every motive you have about your mother.
Every motive that you have about your mother.
Because you guys are so intertwined, right?
Because when we don't have bonding, we have clinginess, we have intermingling, we have codependency, we have fusion.
We don't get healthy and mature separation and individuation, right?
This is not my theory.
This is pretty standard stuff.
But... Your mother really wants you to believe that she can give you what you want.
Uh-huh. Right?
Right. Because if she can dangle that carrot in front of you, you'll keep coming around, right?
Right. And she wants you to keep coming around.
Yes. But your empirical Multi-decade experience of your mother is that she's never going to give you what you want.
Right. So, your experience is of no hope whatsoever.
In fact, not even no hope, but certain knowledge that you're not going to get what you want.
In fact, you're going to get the exact opposite of what you want.
See, not getting what I want, it's like I don't wake up every day and say, damn, I didn't win the lottery, right?
But if somebody comes and slaps me around the head every morning, that's different.
That's getting the opposite of what I want, right?
Right. Your mother gives you the opposite of what you want, but she wants to dangle this thing out.
Like, she could give you what you want if only you figure out the right way to approach her, if only you figure out the right letter to write, or the right words to put together, or the right dance, or I don't know what it would be.
Maybe you kill three chickens and do the Macarena, but somehow she's got this thing out there that if you can pick this lock, there's this incredible treasure on the other side called love and happiness and devotion and maternal daughter bond and so on, right?
Right. But here's the thing.
If she's in this treasure room and she hears you at the door, why do you have to do all the work?
Why doesn't she just open the goddamn door?
I don't know.
Oh, I think you do.
In fact, I know you do.
Because then she'd have to see me?
I don't...
Oh, you know.
You know. You know. Why isn't she the one making the advances?
Why isn't she the one healing the relationship?
Why isn't she the one making things better?
Why is that your job? Because she doesn't want to.
Yeah, of course, she doesn't want to.
She doesn't want to, and why doesn't she want to?
Because she doesn't care.
Well, does she not care about you, or does she not care about everything in general?
Like, is it personal to you, or...?
Everything in general, probably.
Well, she only cares about things that matter to her.
Well, I think that's true, but I think that's true of everyone, right?
I mean, that's true of me, that's true of the best person on the planet, whoever that person may be.
We all only care about things that matter to us.
The real question is why don't you matter to her?
Okay, let me ask you this.
I'm sorry.
There's nothing wrong with what you're doing.
Everybody's retarded at this moment.
I don't know if you've heard these other conversations.
We all become, I do, my wife did, everybody becomes completely brain dead at this point, so don't worry.
This is totally, totally, right?
It's like the city just goes, like the whole just goes offline, right?
Because we anticipate a strike, right?
Yeah. Does your mother think she was a good mother?
Yes, for the most part.
Does your mother think she is a good person, was and is a good person?
Not perfect, but did the best she could and was a good person and so on.
Yeah. Okay.
She's a good person, she was a good mother, and good means she's virtuous and all that, right?
Right. Now, if you were to ask your mother, Mommy, dare we say dearest, No, she gets mad at me for that.
Yeah, no kidding. No kidding.
I bet she does. I bet she does.
But if you would say to her, Mom, do you think that it's important to be curious about the people that you love?
Like, to want to know what they think and feel.
Not to agree, but just to know, right?
Hang on just a minute.
What's going on? I've got to go with it.
Okay. I'm sorry.
I was half paying attention because my daughter came in the room.
Oh, no problem. So, if you were to say to your mom, Mom, do you think that it's important to know the thoughts and the feelings of the people that you love?
Uh-huh. What would she say?
She would say, yeah, sure.
Of course it's important. Yeah.
Mom, do you think that honesty is important in relationships?
Yeah. Okay.
So it's important to know the thoughts and feelings, and it's important to be honest, right?
Right. So help me understand why, and you can roleplay her if you like, it's fine with me, but help me understand then that when I talk about my thoughts and feelings and I'm honest with you, you tell me that I'm wrong or you reject what I think and feel.
She'd say, I don't do that.
What do you mean?
I don't see what you're saying.
Great. Keep going with that.
Let's hash this sumbitch out, right?
So, Mom, do you see that you just did it?
No. Well, I said that I experienced that you reject what I think and feel, and you immediately rejected what I thought and felt.
And said I was wrong. She'd say, no, I didn't reject what you were thinking and feeling.
I just said that I don't do that.
I do listen to you.
Well, but I said that I experienced you as not listening to me, and you immediately contradicted me and said that you do listen to me.
But the question wasn't whether you objectively do or do not listen to me, because we'll never know.
There's no Dr.
Phil tapes of our house growing up or whatever, right?
Uh-huh. I felt, or I feel, that you don't listen to me, and then when I say that, you immediately tell me that I'm wrong.
And don't listen to me.
Uh-huh.
And what would she say to that?
I don't know what she would say.
Right. And the reason that you don't know is because you haven't gone there, right?
Right. And I don't know if you've got this real-time relationship book that I've been plugging away on, but get it.
It's real cheap. Just grab it.
You can download it right away.
But this is a very key thing, right?
Because you want to fight with your mom about facts, right?
Who said what, who did what, what happened when, right?
Uh-huh. You've got to throw all that aside.
That's not going to help you.
That's playing her game, right?
And you can't win her game.
Yeah. Right?
Right. So the thing to do, though, is you simply talk about your thoughts and your feelings.
Uh-huh. And do you see how it took about literally 15 seconds to get to the core contradiction of your mom, that she holds these values in theory that she completely and hypocritically acts the opposite of in practice, right? Right.
Yes, we should be honest.
Well, I'm telling you honestly that I don't feel like you listen to me, or I don't feel whatever, right?
I've had these feelings of being outside the family and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
She immediately just dismisses, right?
Right. Right. So she makes this transition from, yes, this is a very core value in human relationships to, I'm going to do the complete opposite and not even notice it, right?
Right. Right.
That's why she's not working at the relationship.
That's why she's throwing up all these roadblocks.
Right. That's not clear, right?
That's not clear. Sorry, go ahead.
I have this problem a lot.
It's kind of half clear and I understand it.
I couldn't repeat it.
I couldn't put it in words for you to make it clear to somebody else or even really myself.
expecting your mom to want to work at her relationship with you is like expecting a professional counterfeiter to create a counterfeit detection machine it's like you lost me get sorry it's um...
expecting your mom To work at her relationship with you is like expecting a thief to install alarm systems in people's houses.
Right. Because that's the complete opposite of what she's all about, right?
She's all about making up stories that make her the good person and anybody who contradicts her the bad person, right?
Right. That's kind of called narcissism in my opinion.
Right? So a narcissist is like a counterfeiter and a thief and a criminal and so on, and even worse than those things because at least those people only prey on adults, right?
The narcissist primarily preys on children, right?
It must have occurred to you like, well, if she doesn't like me that much, why did she have kids?
I did a podcast on this recently.
I don't know if it's going to come out, but it's sort of a central question, right?
So your mom is, this is all just my opinion, right?
So just whatever, nonsense, nonsense.
But your mom is like piously self-righteous and has this world, this fantasy world that she inhabits where she can just wish herself into being a good person and a good mother without actually having to be a good person or a good mother, right?
Right. She can just say it.
And it's true. Yeah.
Yeah. And if you disagree with that, then she wants, like, proof of what she did wrong, and even if you try to bring up proof, then she comes back with, like, stuff, and it all gets muddy, and nothing ever gets to really, like, the bottom of things.
Right, right.
And the reason for that is there is no...
There is no mother there.
There's no person. There's no personality there.
See, we were talking earlier about how you're trying to pick this lock to get into this incredible treasure room of a great relationship with your mom, this treasure, this gold, this jewels, all in this big room, and you're trying to figure out how to get into this room, right?
Right. The awful secret is there's nothing in the room.
Uh-huh. That's why your mom's not opening the door.
That's why she's changing the combination every time you get close to picking the lock, because there's nothing in there.
And that's what you knew from the beginning, which is why you spent year after year after year hiding and lying and falsifying with your mom, right?
Now, she wants you to come in and fight with her, and she wants you to get mad, and she wants all of that, for sure.
Because that keeps you around.
And in battling you, she battles her own doubts, and there's all this other nonsense going on, but I don't know what it benefits you.
I don't know how, I mean, do you fool or not?
That's not the issue. I just don't understand how a relationship with your mother benefits you.
Does it make you happy? Do you look forward to seeing her?
When her name lights up the call display on your phone, what do you feel?
Like, I don't really want to answer it right now.
Most of the time, that's what it is.
We have a little less foggy Switzerland in there.
I don't really want to answer it.
Like, there's a part of you that does, and there's a part like, do you or don't you?
Do you want to answer the phone when your mom calls or don't you?
Like 95% of the time, no, I don't.
And what are the times when you do?
What's the difference? When I've called her about something and I know she's calling me back, then I do want to answer.
And is that like you want to chat or is it a piece of information that you need or plans to make?
It's usually information or plans to make.
Okay, so that's not a relationship, right?
That's just a fax, right?
I mean, like the 5% where it's like, what time were we meeting again?
7 o'clock, click, thanks.
Wow, that was a great and intimate relationship.
Yeah. Okay, so any time where there's any involvement or emotion, you don't want to do it, right?
Uh-huh. So, help me understand...
Make the case, you know, because not to me, what do you care about me, right?
But make the case for yourself.
Like, why do you want to have a relationship with your mother?
You don't have to. You're not obligated to.
There's no reason to.
If you have a dysfunctional relationship with your mom, I guarantee you it's going to be messing up your marriage and it's also going to be messing up your relationship with your kids.
So there's a lot of downside.
95% of the time it's bad.
You fight. You have this god-awful history with her.
She's religious.
She's cultish. She's vicious.
She's bad-tempered. She's dismissive.
We've got all the negatives, right?
So, what ladder are you going to use to dig your way out of that hole?
What's the pluses on the other side of the column?
Um... Well, really the reason that I'm hesitant to actually cut off any relationship with my mother is not because of my mother at all, but because of other people that are involved with my mother as well.
And I'm afraid of how they'll react if I cut off from her.
So you're afraid that those people may take your mom's side?
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Well, doesn't that tell you everything that you need to know?
I'm not saying this is easy, right?
But just from a logical standpoint, if people who have to choose between you and your mother choose your mother, isn't that killing two birds with one stone, so to speak?
I guess.
Well, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, right?
I'm not talking about the emotional difficulty of it, because, I mean, I'm right with you there, Sisterly.
Like, it's a horrible thing to contemplate in action.
But I'm just talking about in theory.
Uh-huh. Like, if there are people who look at you and your mom, right?
This cantankerous, religious, culty bitch, right?
And you. I assume it's not that way.
You seem a good-natured person.
And they say, I'm going with the cantankerous culty religious bitch.
Uh-huh. Well, it's like, hey, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, right?
Uh-huh. But, I don't know, that's just hard to do.
No, no, it's hard to do.
Look, forget about the doing.
Because we're not talking about the doing.
We're not talking about the doing.
Honestly, forget that. Okay.
I'm forgetting. Because I'm like saying, hey, do you feel like climbing Everest?
You know, like, I'm not dressed for it.
It's like, I'm not talking about being dressed for it.
We're just maybe. I don't have the right shoes.
I got my Manolo Blahnik on and they just don't work in ice.
You know, like, forget that. We're just talking about the theory, right?
Okay. If you don't mind.
I mean, the practicality is another issue, right?
But if people will go with your mom and side against...
Like, they're either going to come and talk to you and say, Jennifer, what is going on with you and your mom?
And you're going to say, look, you're going to have to sit down.
I'm going to make you a nice pot of coffee.
And I'm going to tell you the whole thing.
And it's going to take an hour or two.
And, you know, just hear me out and so on.
And this was my experience. And you tell them what happened, right?
Why you made the decision that you made and what you were thinking and what you were feeling and how anguishing, how heart-wrenching it was to make that decision.
You go through that process, right?
Right. So people will either come and talk to you or they won't, right?
Right. Now, if they won't even come and talk to you to hear your side of why you made this difficult and painful decision, then, you know, I hate to say it, but fuck them.
Yeah. They don't even care enough about you after you felt invisible in this family for year after year after.
They don't care enough to come and hear your side of things.
Then what value are they really anyway?
Yeah. Now, they may come and hear your side of things, and they may disagree with you and so on, but, you know, just be persistent and say, well, but this is still my experience.
Disagreeing with me, like if I put my hand in a stove and somebody tells me it's not hot, that doesn't really help me.
It doesn't burn. It doesn't help me.
It's like, but I'm burnt, right?
But fire isn't that hot.
Doesn't matter. Look at my hand.
I'm burnt, right? Right.
This is how you feel based on your experience.
You're not paranoid. You're not paranoid.
You didn't just get hit in the head and woke up with this weird distaste for your mom.
I mean, this is based on a lot of accumulated history, right?
It didn't come out of nowhere.
It was built over years and so on, right?
Right. So if people, they don't come by or they, you know, they just go and talk to your mom and your mom says, oh, this ungrateful, how sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have an...
That rat bastard Tim stole my daughter.
Whatever, right? And they're like, are we going to get the pitchforks and the brands that we're going to get them?
They all turn into that weird cult mob, then isn't that...
I mean, how much of your life do you want to spend in this crew?
Because that really means that they're just like her.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I'll tell you this, you already know that they're just like her because you're afraid of them.
Right? It's questionable on like one or two, but yeah.
Yeah, and I even bet you that it's not that questionable on the one or two.
I mean, in my opinion. This is what I always try and nag people about, and I apologize.
It just seems to work, right?
It's like, you already know everything there is to know about your family.
You already know exactly what's going to happen.
Yeah. And I can tell you that if you do defu, you're not going to be the one who does it.
What do you mean? It's not going to be you who does it.
Okay. We don't defoo from our parents.
Our parents actually defoo from us.
What we do is we make a commitment to be honest to everyone who's in our life.
Yeah. Right?
And if they don't like it, too bad.
I'm still going to be honest.
Okay. Because I want to be a person I can look in the mirror and say, I'm an honest person, a good person, I fight the good fight, I stand up for what I believe in, and I don't take manipulative crap from anybody, right?
Right. With dignity, honor, respect, right?
All the good things, right? Mm-hmm.
So what happens is, we go to our parents, and we say, this was my experience for childhood.
And if they dismiss it and they negate it, they say, well, see, this just confirms...
What I'm talking about. And anyway, this is all in the RTR books.
I won't go into any detail here, but honestly, get the book.
But what happens is, they eventually tell us to go away.
Right? Because when we're honest with them, we're no longer serving their needs.
Right. So they don't have any use for us if we're not supporting their fantasies.
They reject us.
The defu is not, we leave our wailing parents in the dust.
My family didn't even call me when I started being honest with them.
Okay. Right?
They don't think, oh shit, is he telling the truth?
Hit the eject button.
We're about lies here.
We're not about telling the truth.
Shit, who knows where that could lead?
Oh, we know. That's not a good place, right?
Yeah. So we all take this burden on, like, we're going to be the ones that defoo, and oh my god, we're going to separate from our parents, and we're going to pull their arms off our neck and cast them to the earth, and we're going to stalk off, and they'll be reaching after us so big, and we're like, with this drama thing, this big soap opera. It's all nothing.
Exactly. What happens is, we tell the truth, they hit the button, we're gone.
Wow. And you know that.
And you know that. And you've known that since you were like one year old.
And that's why you've never spoken the truth to your mom.
You know exactly what's going to happen.
and it's not you who's defooing.
All right, so you can let that burden go, right?
I'm just trying to pull some of the bricks off your back, right?
Because I know that there's a lot of torture in this for you, right?
And I understand that.
That's actually a good sign, right?
When people are like, yeah, fuck mom.
It's good that it's torturing, right?
Because that means that you're still bonded and you don't have the capacity for love.
And it's all good stuff, right? Right.
So I'm just trying to, you know, all you're going to do is go and be honest, which is a value that your mother already agrees with, right?
Right. Right. So all you're going to go is go to your mom and say, hey, you already told me, you always told me to be honest with you, always told me not to lie, so this is what I'm going to...
And then see what she does when you actually do what she says is the right thing.
Right. And what if she surprises me?
She will not surprise you.
People, she's not going to change now.
Mm-hmm.
She's not gonna change now.
But you don't get that at every level, right?
You've still yet to separate you from her in this psychological arena?
Yeah. Right?
So, you know, seriously, RTR book, you know, I'm not trying to pitch you anything here, right?
Because it's not like I do an hour conversation every time I sell a book, right?
I'm just sort of saying that it's like the worst marketing strategy in the world for an hour and trying to buy my book and make five bucks.
But actually, in some countries, it'd be a good wage, but not the country I like.
But I'm just trying to pull some of the bricks off your back, right?
All you're going to do is go and tell the truth, right?
Now, you don't even have to do that.
You can continue to fight and you can continue to be put down and humiliated and you continue to be ignored and conform and feel frustrated and 95%.
You can be totally free to do all of that, right?
Because everyone has this weird idea that I tell people to leave their families.
It's like, no, I'm telling you to get close to your family and then they'll get rid of you if they get that kind of idea.
But I'm just trying to... It's not a big confrontation.
It's not a big blowout.
If you want to talk to your mom, then you just say, okay, well, I'm going to be honest and tell her what I feel, right?
Yeah. And that's either going to work or it's not going to work.
But what's not going to happen is I'm going to go right back into my little shell and pretend that I don't exist again.
I'm not going to live another day turning myself into a ghost for the pleasure of people whose morals are at best suspect.
Right.
And there's no big drama if you do decide that you just don't want to see her anymore.
more.
Right? It's just...
I mean, we've got examples of this on the board, but this doesn't have to be a big drama.
You just say, you know, like a...
Because there'll be enough conflict that she'll be happy to see the back of you for a while, right?
If you're honest with her, right?
And so you just say, well, you know, I'm going to take a little bit of a break.
I'm going to work on my own issues.
I'm going to, you know, figure out, you know, give her whatever she needs.
I'm the one who's totally at fault.
I'm going to go into therapy so I become a better...
Whatever, right? I'll get back in touch with you when I'm ready or whatever.
And that buys you a couple of months, right?
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
And you see how you feel.
It's like a trial separation.
You see how you feel over that couple of months.
If you wake up every day and the birds are singing and rainbows and walk on the wings of butterflies to get wherever you want to, then you'll just be like, hey, you know, I think I'm going to stretch this to a permanent vacation, right?
But if you're like, oh, you know, I'm really sad and I miss her so much and there are all these good times and so on, right?
Which is always not going to happen, right?
But it's just a trial, right?
It's just say, hey, you know, I'm going to see how I feel without this, quote, relationship in my life.
Buy myself a couple of months of time and see what happens, right?
See how you feel. I get the sense that there's going to be some big drama.
There's going to be a big thing and tears and imprecations and fights and they'll be calling it all hours of the night.
It doesn't have to be like that.
It might be. I don't know because your mom could be a whole lot crazier than even I think.
But it doesn't have to be like that.
There's a lot you can do to manage the transition.
But just make a commitment and say, I'm no longer going to hide my precious being for the sake of people who were bullies.
And either the bullies can adjust to the fact that I'm no longer going to hide myself and lie to them and pretend that things aren't the way they are, but I'm just not going to hide myself anymore.
Because life's too short to spend cowering under a rock whenever your mom comes over, right?
And that's not what you want to give to your kids, right, as an example.
Oh, definitely not.
Because they'll see what you do.
This is why I say it. It messes up your marriage.
I'm not saying your marriage is messed up.
I'm not saying you're a bad mom or anything like that.
But it has a negative effect, right?
Yeah. Because they're like, well, good people, because obviously they think you're a good person, right?
And you are, sure, right?
Good people talk a lot about goodness.
But then when bad people come over, they totally fold.
They what? Yeah. They totally fold, right?
They just cave in. They just vanish.
They become different people.
Their strength evaporates.
You know what I mean? No, I don't understand.
I'm sorry. I'm not being clear.
Your kids look at you like you're a goddess, right?
Because you're their mom, right? Okay.
And so they get a vision because they see you with your mom, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So they see you with your husband, and you guys have a good, positive, loving relationship, right?
Yeah. And then they see you.
What do they see when you're around your mom?
How do you look to them?
Do you look happy? Yeah, I still try to get along with my mom, but it's just I don't talk about things that I know will start a fight.
Right.
Do you look happy to them when you're around your mom?
Because that doesn't sound happy to me.
That sounds like walking on eggshells, right?
And you can always answer and say, well...
How does it seem to you guys when I'm around?
Because they'll know, right? They got it.
I mean, kids know everything about the family, right?
If you ever want information, right?
People always say, oh, this is Rosetta.
I don't know how to uncode my family.
Just ask the kids. They'll know.
How does it seem to you?
How do I seem to you when I'm around my mom?
Ask them what they think of their grandmother.
How do they feel when you say, hey, we're going to grandma's.
They get all excited. Yay!
Or are they like, oh, really?
I hope she's got some presents. No, they get all excited.
Oh, okay. Well, you can explore that, right?
Because they may be seeing a side of your mom that you can't see for whatever reason, right?
So you've got a lot of information there from your kids, right?
If your mom is not a good person, then you don't want your kids to be excited to go hang with bad people, right?
Yeah. They're only four in three.
I'm sorry? They're only four in three.
Right. I mean, this is my experience of working in a daycare and having spent a lot of time around my nieces that, even at that age, they give you some pretty useful information.
But that's just me, right? You can sort of ask them and see what they think.
But yeah, I'm just saying it doesn't have to be a big, huge drama.
It doesn't have to be a big, huge mess, right?
I'm not sure if that's possible with my mother, but we can try.
Right, right. Well, is this, I mean, sorry I talked so much, I just kind of wanted to get a lot of information across relatively quickly, but has this been useful or helpful, or is there anything else that you wanted to ask?
Oh, it's been very useful.
I feel kind of like an idiot because I'm just sitting here like, right, and I don't really know what to add to the conversation sometimes, but...
No, this is a...
I get that you're a very caring person and that you don't want to cause people pain unnecessarily, and you also don't want to act in an unjust manner, right?
Uh-huh. You don't want to do something you might regret, right?
Yeah. I miss her so much.
I mean, we all have these disaster scenarios, right?
You mentioned, of course, that your family has helped you along with.
So no, no, you did fantastically.
But I just wanted to make sure if there was anything else that you wanted to ask, if this conversation was complete enough for you.
It made sense. Yeah, I think it's good.
All right. I don't think I have any more questions.
Fantastic. Well, Jennifer, I really do appreciate it.
It's a great chat. I'll send you guys a recording of this and let me know.
I personally think this would be completely gold, fantastically useful, helpful stuff for other people because you're certainly not allowed to do this.
But have a listen and let me know what you think.
Okay. All right.
Thanks. Thank you.
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