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Feb. 28, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:34:55
995 Podcast In Reverse Part 1 - The Solution

A conversation after the conflict...

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So this series is, I think, an interesting series.
I've decided to release these in the reverse order to which they occurred.
Greg and I were attempting to do a role-play, and it went...
Just a little bit awry.
And then we talked a little bit later where I presented a theory as to why I thought the conflict that we experienced had occurred.
And I thought it would be interesting to hear the solution before providing the conflict.
And I hope that you will find it interesting.
I think that with the knowledge of the solution, or at least a possible solution, it will be much more interesting and instructive to listen to the conflict as it unfolds so with that in mind let us start with the podcast in reverse series 995 and 996 with the solution to the conflict followed by the conflict itself Okay.
First of all, I did want to apologize for one thing where I made fun of your defensiveness in the last call.
I think that was not wise or kind or helpful, so I just wanted to apologize for that.
I don't remember what you said.
Oh good, then I'll cut it out and this apology out of the recording.
So let me just sort of take a...
This is not going to be anything to do with...
Role-playing or daemons or anything like that.
So let's just take a theory for a spin and see if it can help understand what occurred, right?
Because look at a nap after that, right?
It was some exhausting shit, right?
And what that means for me is that it can be kind of exhausting being you, right?
And... It's interesting, that's exactly what happened.
I had some lunch and then I took a nap because I just felt so drained after that.
Yeah, no, I mean, we both had the same experience of that conversation.
And what that means, I think, since it benefited neither of us, it can't have come particularly from either of us's direct person at person, right?
There was a foreign element Dictating the course of the conversation.
That would be for the benefit of somebody else, right?
That's the follow the benefit thing, right?
Okay. So I'm going to run...
I know that doesn't make any sense, but I'll run down a possibility of what happened, and you can let me know if it makes any sense.
Sure, sure, sure. Your mom was...
Misanthropic, in a way, if I understood from what you were saying from our last conversation.
Yeah, yeah. She really did sort of hate people, but just kind of...
She sort of disingenuously liked them, if that makes any sense.
Oh, yeah, to me it makes total sense.
In fact, it would be shocking if it were otherwise, right?
So she pretended to like people or she had good...
She had really good...
A really good appearance of liking people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And oftentimes, you know, it was kind of infuriating in a way because she would...
She had this habit of, she would spend hours talking to, she had a best friend down the street, and talking to her, and then after she would go home, her friend would go home, she would spend the next few hours complaining about her friend.
Oh, no question.
Yeah, no, I understand. That used to really irk me.
Right. And did you ever talk to your mother about how you felt about that?
No, it wouldn't have accomplished anything, and I kind of knew that.
Right. I mean, it would have been an unpleasant, difficult, blah, blah, blah, right?
Right, and I mean, I would have been willing to sort of put up with that if I knew it was going to go somewhere, but it would just end up in a shouting match or something.
Right. So your mother's defenses were impenetrable, right?
Yeah. And, as far as your feeling, it either ended up as a shouting match if you would attempt to tell the truth to your mother, right?
Or, what else would happen?
Like, when your mother would talk for, I imagine it was not a brief conversation about the failures or flaws of her codependent whatever relationship with her friend or quote friend.
How did you feel in those situations?
Myself?
No, how did you feel not yourself?
Just kidding. Don't start with me, Gautier.
Yeah, I would feel pretty disgusted.
Right.
And how long would these sessions of your mother complaining would go on?
How long would they go on for?
Um... Well, when I would first...
When she first started doing that, after I got around, I don't know, high school age or something...
Um...
It would go on for quite a while.
Maybe an hour or more.
But after a while, since I wasn't really providing any feedback, it just got less and less and less to the point where...
She wouldn't talk to me about it.
She'd talk to others in the family.
Whoever would give her the feedback she was looking for, I guess.
Like, would she do this with your brothers as well?
Yeah.
And what did they do?
Just kind of...
Patronizer.
Just what? Patronizer.
Just, you know, um...
Would actually engage in a conversation with her about it.
I... I just...
I really didn't...
Like I say, I was pretty...
I don't know, grossed out by it, so I didn't...
I didn't feel like saying anything, and...
And... And so she wouldn't...
after a while figuring that out she didn't want to she didn't really come after me as much if that makes any sense - Yes.
It sure does.
And are you saying that this only occurred for you starting in high school?
Well, I can't remember it before then.
If that was going on before then, I don't know.
I have very few memories from before high school.
So when you say very few memories, do you mean of your mother, of your life, of...
Period.
My life, my mother, my father...
So you're like that Greek goddess that popped full form from her father's forehead or whatever.
It's like, man, that must have been quite the labor, you know?
All right. I'm 14.
Well, I can remember falling down a set of stairs when I was five or six.
I can remember being made to sit in the living room with my pants on.
Soaking wet. After peeing myself when I was four or five, I can remember...
I can remember most of the worst spankings I ever got.
I can remember...
Let's see...
I could probably count on two hands of the memories that I have from before I was 12 or 13 years old.
And do you remember any interactions with your mother before the...
Is it 12 or 13?
That's the high school thing?
I thought that was younger. Yeah, I guess that would be middle.
So 12 or 13, can you remember anything to do with your mom before that?
Anything at all?
Well, in terms of conversations with your mom, not like massive, traumatic, horrible things, of which I know there were plenty, but just of this habit of your mother's of putting people down.
And of course, I would imagine, tell me if I'm wrong, that she would put people down in a kind of oblique way.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Okay, so do you remember conversations with your mom before the time period that you were talking about?
Or rather, having to sit and listen to your mom be negative towards people?
Oh, you know what? She used to do that to her sisters all the time.
Do it about her sisters to you or to her sisters about someone else?
Not specifically to me, because this was when I was way, way young, but we'd be sitting at dinner and she would be grousing and complaining about her sisters to my dad all the time.
Right. And what did your dad do?
In various ways. Sometimes more direct than others.
And my dad was always actually, interestingly enough, on their side.
Oh, but I like your brothers.
They're nice people. I like your sisters.
They're nice people. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That kind of thing. Just kind of trying to...
Manage her temper, I guess?
I don't know. Manage, so when you say she would get angry at this sort of stuff?
Give me a spiel that your mom would have about someone, just a few minutes of it, or a few seconds.
Alright, um...
Shit.
Shit.
And it can be about her friend.
It doesn't have to be about the sisters. Alright, let me think.
Um... Okay,
so like her friend's husband was an alcoholic and she would spend a lot of time talking about how her friend doesn't Doesn't seem to want to do anything about it and how she was constantly sort of enabling him and How he was kind of messing up their kids and stuff like that.
And once when I was older, I actually asked her, do you say any of this stuff to her?
Oh no, it's none of my business.
And what did she mean by that, do you think?
Well, at the time I figured what that meant that was was that she just She was just too afraid to say anything.
To the woman herself.
yeah and what do you think now well now I'm not sure haha Now I... You know, I wonder...
I wonder now whether she even cared.
Right?
She just wanted something to talk about.
And that was something to talk about.
Right?
Right. And was this friend of hers, do you think her husband was an alcoholic?
Oh, I know he was.
Eventually they wound up divorced.
And he wound up in AA and lost his job and all kinds of stuff.
And did your mother have other friends?
No, my parents both were not very friendly people.
And what happened to your mother's friendship with this woman after this woman got a divorce and so on?
For a long time it was distant, but after a while she kind of came back.
So for a couple of years after the divorce it was like no contact and then all of a sudden she just started coming back again.
And did your mother complain about her still, or was there, you weren't around that much to hear that?
Yeah, by then I was long gone.
And when did your mother, when you were older, I mean in your 20s and early 30s, when you would be around your mother, did the same negativity occur?
Well, she would never talk openly with me about that stuff, because I pretty much...
At one point, I just told her, I don't know.
Whatever you have to say, I don't want to hear it.
And then she just stopped talking to me about that stuff.
And did she talk to you about anything else?
No, because that's all she has to talk about.
Whenever I would get into conversations with one of my brothers or with my dad about something more intellectual, she would just kind of tune out.
Kind of disappear.
If I understand it rightly, your mother only would talk to you to complain about other people, and when you stopped her from doing that, she didn't have anything to say.
Yeah. That's about right.
Okay, so the only interactions that you...
I mean, with your dad, at least you could have intellectual arguments of a kind, right?
Right. Right.
Your mother would listen to her complain about people, or there was nothing, right?
Right. Right, that's exactly right.
And this probably would have gone back as far as you can remember, and probably would fill in some of the gaps...
That you can't remember.
Probably. I would say that there's a very high likelihood of that.
I mean, the ways in which parents behave negatively when kids get older don't develop with the children, right?
In fact, they're usually less when the children get older.
Right. And she was extremely disingenuous with her own sisters, too, and some of her brothers.
How so? All smiles and handshakes when they were visiting, but then afterward it would be hours and hours of complaining about them.
And what would the complaints be about her sisters?
Oh, there was a lot of infighting in her family over my grandmother's property after she died and various things that her older sister did to sort of Commandeer the will.
How they never call her.
She's not going to call them if they don't call her.
How bratty her sister's kids are.
How messed up they are.
On and on and on.
It's funny how...
Well, not that funny, I guess, but it's interesting how the death of a parent is usually the last nail in the coffin for the civility of the siblings.
My mother, I mean, we have a...
I don't know, he's probably not alive now, but I had a half-uncle or a half-brother on my mother's side who we stayed with when we came to Canada for...
I think six months or so.
Because when I first came to Canada, I was in grade eight.
And then when I came to Toronto, they put me back in grade six.
And so we stayed with this fellow for months.
And I guess they were close enough for that to give us a place to stay.
But then when my grandfather on my mother's side died, there was some dispute between my mother and her half-brother.
About who was supposed to pay for the flowers that were sent for the funeral that they attended.
And then it began.
And that's how fragile the bond was.
And of course, the fact that it ruptured around the death of the father.
What's interesting about that with both my mom and my dad...
I mean, my mom's...
My mom's mother died while my parents were dating.
And my mom's father died about six months after I was...
No, no, no, no, that's a mistake.
No. My grandfather on her side died when I was...
Oh hell yeah, that's right.
I do remember him.
I was maybe five when he died.
And that's when all hell broke loose on my mom's side.
And the thing is, they didn't go their separate ways.
It was sort of like they entrenched and then just started Lobbing grenades at each other.
And then the same exact thing when my grandfather on my dad's side died.
This was about ten years ago.
He died. When that happened, all of a sudden, brothers my dad hadn't talked to in decades.
All of a sudden, they were feuding with each other.
And they're still feuding with each other.
Over 60 acres of lumber land in Wisconsin with an old dilapidated house on it.
It's like, Jesus, you guys, give it up.
It's like My dad's oldest brother is almost 80, and they're still arguing with each other over who deserved the property that my grandfather owned.
Come on! Way past the point when that matters anymore, right?
Well, but of course it's not about the property.
Oh, of course.
Of course. I mean, that's like saying that my mom's fight with her half-brother was about who pays for flowers, right?
Right. It's some other subterranean resentment that is just sort of a symptom of Right,
right. But, but yeah, so for, I mean, for as long as I can remember, all Mom ever had to talk about was her resentment of her own sisters.
Well, but I'm going to guess, and obviously correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going to guess, though, Greg, that That's not all she had to talk about because that would have been much easier psychologically.
Because if we just talk about your aunts, like her sisters, she would bitch at them, about them, bitch about them and complain about them and put them down and this and that and the other.
But wouldn't it be the case that she would also have a...
kind of sinewy, rock-solid sentimentality about them as well?
Hmm.
So if you said, well, given how much you complain about these people, it doesn't sound like you love them, what would you say?
Oh yeah, you're right.
She would turn on a dime.
And what would she say? Well, she'd actually get vicious toward you if you said that to her.
You know, how dare you suggest it?
Right, and if you were to say, okay, well, it's not that I dare suggest it, it's just that after hearing you complain about a group of people and say entirely negative things for year after year after year, it's hard for me to understand how you can still love them.
What would she say to that?
Right.
Well, she would say that I don't understand, and I don't know what I'm talking about, and I wasn't there, and that I'm just being rude, and that she actually and that I'm just being rude, and that she actually loves her siblings very much, and that she actually loves her siblings very much, and that they just don't get along, and that I'm only bringing
and that I'm only bringing that up to hurt her and that...
She would interpret it as an attack on her, right?
Right.
And then turn around and want to retaliate.
Right. And if you were to say something like, well, can you understand, though, that it might be hard to see the love that you have for them if...
Since really all I've heard you do is complain about them for 30 years, can you at least understand how it might be hard for someone else to see the love that you have for them?
Well, the conversations would never get to that level.
If they did. Just if, right?
If you could... Like, what would she say to that?
She would say...
Hmm, she would probably say something along the lines she would probably say something along the lines of...
Um...
Hmm...
Okay, let's try, and I'm just trying to map.
I'm just trying to map your mother's understanding or feelings around this area.
So if you were to say something like this, if you were to say, Mom, you've always told me that telling the truth is a good thing, right?
She would agree with that or not?
Well, she would agree with that, but...
Actually, I don't know, interestingly enough, I don't know if she would agree with that, because she was pretty open about her disingenuousness.
Well, but did your parents have a rule that said you should tell the truth and not lie to them?
Only for us. No, no, but they put it forward as a principle, right?
But they would get really upset if you were that forward with them or if you were that forward with other adults around them.
Sorry, what does forward mean?
If you were that direct and honest, right?
For them, there's, like, levels of honesty, right?
And, um...
Well, but how old were your parents when they had their first kid?
Um... 23.
Okay, 23. So, normally, we start giving children moral instructions when they're three to four years old, right?
Sure. Right, so...
Surely by the time you're 35, and their oldest kid would have been 12, right?
That you would be in the category of, you know, the same category that they would be, right?
Morally, right? I'm not...
Oh, well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, they couldn't say, look, you're just a kid, you don't know, blah, blah, blah.
I'd say, look, I mean, I'm the same age you were when your kid was 12, my oldest kid was 12, right?
Right, but it wasn't...
I know it wasn't age-specific, it's being a parent and this and that, right?
But if you were to say, as an adult, let's say that you were 35, right?
And you heard your mom complaining about her sisters again, right?
To someone, right? Talking in her sleep, who knows, right?
And you were to sit down with her and say, with your whole family and say, look, all I remember from my childhood is mom having issues or negative interactions or negative complaints about her sisters, right? And I think that we as a family need to sit down and talk about all of this stuff.
We need to heal. We need to speak openly.
So the next time we're all together, I'm going to facilitate that.
I couldn't even get them to talk openly about me, let alone...
No, no, because it wouldn't be up to them.
The next time we're all together, I'm going to facilitate it.
You're not trying to get them to talk.
You're going to say, the next time that we're all together, I'm going to facilitate it.
And what I mean by that is, I'm going to bring up the issues, and we're going to work through them.
Because this thing where we complain about people when they're not around is not good, right?
It's not a healthy way of having it around.
And the instant reaction would have been, that's...
Not my responsibility.
That's none of my business. I don't have any standing.
Well, and what I would respond to that, again, if I were in your shoes, what I would say is, well, but it is my business, and you as parents, and particularly you, Mom, have made it my business by complaining about it year after year after year.
Right. I mean, if it's not my business, why do I even know about it?
And some of these very things you're saying are things that came out of my mouth when I was a teenager in high school, and it didn't go so well.
Right, but I'm talking like, sorry, if you'd have said this when you were 35, we're just magical alternative universe land, right?
Right. You said, well, you guys have made it my business by complaining to me About this year after year after year.
And so my experience of this family is negatively impacted by this feud, right?
Or these planes.
So it is my business.
In the same way, you can't turn your stereo up really loud and then say it's none of my business if I'm in the same room or the same house.
It is my business because it's negatively...
You put headphones on, I agree.
It's none of my business. But when it negatively impacts my experience of this family, it is my business.
You've made it my business and I'm going to deal with it.
Right. If I were to say that at 35, which is not under these circumstances or in this context, but what was going on for me a year and a half or two years ago, their response would be, well, there's the door.
You don't have to be here.
Right. Okay. And so they would say, okay, well, oh, sorry, then I would say to that, say, so what you're saying is that we can, as a family, that our solution to conflicts is to continue to hang around with people and smile to their face and then tear them down behind their back.
And that's something that you want to stand on as a noble and virtuous principle.
And that's exactly what they do.
Well, what would they say? Because as soon as I left, that's exactly what they did.
No, but what would they say if you challenged them on the noble principle of smile to people's face and stab them behind their back?
Well, at that point, if I openly call them a hypocrite, my dad would step in and literally get violent.
Right. If I called my mother a hypocrite, my dad would...
No, but you wouldn't be calling them a hypocrite, right?
I didn't... I mean, as you, I didn't use that phrase.
All I said is, is that the standard that we have as a family?
I'm not saying it is, but is that the standard, that the way that we solve problems is to smile at their face and then talk down about them behind their back?
That would be instantly recognized as me calling them hypocrites.
Right, okay. Now, if your dad were to get violent, right?
Which you say he would, right?
Then, again, this is fantasy alternate universe, right?
Where you are, you know, captain hero of all time, which we all want to be, right?
Right. Then I would say, in that situation, I would say, if you're going to get violent with me, I will tell you what the consequences are going to be.
If you get violent with me and do not listen to me in a calm and rational manner, I will tell you what will unfold.
I am going to go home And I am going to write down every complaint that remains unresolved between mom and her sisters.
And I am going to drive to each of these sisters' houses, or if I can't drive there, I'm going to mail it, and I'm going to say, these are the issues that are currently interfering with my ability to enjoy our extended family life.
Every single issue that has been complained about that remains unresolved, I am going to bring that...
Out into the open so that it can be discussed and worked on.
And you can get as mad as you want and you can shake your fist in my face.
The madder you get, the longer that list is going to be.
To suggest that course of action would probably elicit either blank stares or belly laughs.
Okay. And what would that mean, though?
That would mean they would have...
They would think that I was trying to...
Bluff them with some gigantic elaborate scheme.
No, it's not a big scheme.
I am going to talk about, I would say, in this situation, I am going to bring these issues out into the open so that we can work on them as a family.
I'm either going to do that with your participation and counsel and input, or if you threaten me or laugh at me, I'm going to do it.
But either way, it's going to happen.
And we can either sit here and discuss the best way, and maybe we do this in the presence of a counselor, or maybe we do it in the presence of a priest, or maybe whatever would be even remotely acceptable to them or whatever, right?
But this feud, you're going to go to your graves with this feud still cooking, and I am tired of the negativity that floats around this family and the complaints about everyone else that are never addressed with other people.
And if this means that I am kicked out of this family, then I'm kicked out of this family.
But I am taking a stand that this endless complaints about other people are going to stop.
They're either going to stop because I'm kicked out of this family, or they're going to get stopped because we all sit down and work it out together, or they're going to get stopped because I will simply go and talk about these issues with my aunts.
If you don't want to participate, that's fine.
But in one way or another, someone's got to stand up for Actually solving problems in this family, not just smiling and pretending they don't exist and then complaining and complaining and complaining mostly to the kids for year after year.
Yeah. And what would they say to that?
And what would they say to that?
Um... And if they sat there forever, what I would say is, if,
and I'm not saying it can be, but if these issues could be resolved between mom and her sisters, To some degree, in some manner, so that you didn't have to smile to their face and then complain about them behind their back.
If these issues could be resolved in some positive way, so that there was some closure and some understanding and some sympathy for whatever has gone wrong, would that be a better state than smiling in their presence and complaining about them later?
Oh, my mom would simply insist that there was no solution.
Well, but you see, we don't know that because we've never tried talking about things openly and honestly with everyone around.
Like, we all get to get around and we talk about this, that, and the other.
But I'd say to her, Dad, you don't want to be like your oldest brother, 80 years old, and still complaining about your dad and your siblings.
You don't want that for the rest of your life, do you?
You know what his answer to that would be?
No, of course not, and then launch into a complaint about them.
Right, and then I would interrupt him and say, this is good, right?
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Instead of complaining to me, who cannot bring any kind of resolution to these issues...
We need to sit you down with your brother and maybe a third party mediator or some sort of counselor or some priest or someone.
There's lots of resources in the community that can help you guys negotiate this.
But see, exactly what you're doing now, which is complaining to me about somebody that you never talked to about these issues, that's not the way that this family should be running in the long run.
Oh, and in his case, it's actually a little bit different because the three of them would get on the phone and yell and scream at each other for hours over it.
Right, but that's what I mean when I say you need a third party.
When relationships get this fractious, this aggressive, then you need a third party who can help you to talk to each other in a way that you actually solve problems rather than just yelling at each other, right?
Right.
And I even actually at one point suggested a lawyer because the problem that they complain about all the time is really a legal one.
Well, but it's not about the law, right?
It's not about the farm.
It's not about the law. This is why when we actually have freedom in our personal relationships, we can get by without a state.
Because everybody uses all this shit to hack at each other about issues that they're not being honest about.
Right. And my dad's argument would just be, well, you know, I have the right solution and all they have to do is listen to me.
Then the problem will be solved.
And then I would say to my dad, Dad, if you have the right solution, then why isn't the problem solved?
Well, because the property is in Arthur's name.
Well, but the fact of the matter is that this problem is not solved.
So nobody has the right solution because surely the right solution involves actually solving the problem.
And the way I saw it, there wasn't ever even really a problem there.
I mean... In the way you as Greg saw it?
Yeah. Right, right.
Right, but this would be the approach that, and obviously I'm not saying this would ever work or anything like that, but this would be an approach where I would say, look, either you're going to work out things with your siblings...
And you're going to have honest and positive relationships with them and you're going to put aside all of these hurts and you're going to stop trying to be right and you're going to stop trying to dominate people and get mad at them and bully them or just gossip about them negatively behind their back.
Either we move towards that as a family or I know that you don't love your siblings.
Because if you remain committed to fractious, negative, spiteful relationships with people, you can't claim to love them.
You can't. If you do claim to love them, and you do, then you have to work towards a more positive solution.
But sitting there, having negative, toxic, difficult, unpleasant relationships with your siblings, and then claiming to love them, doesn't fly anymore.
And someone in the family's got to stand up and say, this is not right.
And I'm going to be that person.
And y'all can throw the slings and arrows at me as you want.
You can get as mad at me as you want.
But deep down, you know I'm right.
You know this is not the right way to run your relationships.
And nothing's going to change unless we change, right?
Right. And... And I've had similar conversations with my dad about this stuff.
And what happened?
Nothing. Nothing ever happens.
When these conversations happen, he's all ears, but only in the later years.
He was all ears, and he was all agreement, but nothing ever came of it.
And things always descend.
And do you know why?
No.
Well, you weren't committed to having it work.
Oh, well, yeah, that's right.
Because if you were committed to having it work, then it would be like, you know, we either go with them together or I go alone.
You're right. I totally agree with you on that.
And I'm completely willing to admit that the fact is I just got to a point at some point that I just didn't care anymore.
I really fundamentally don't care about them.
No, no, no. Listen, don't get me wrong.
God, I'm not saying you did anything wrong at all.
I mean, God, they're a bunch of lunatics, right?
But there's a couple of things that I wanted to get out of this conversation with you, right?
The first is that you just did your first successful roleplay.
Okay. See that bit when I said it wasn't going to be about roleplaying?
Sorry. And how did that happen?
Well, tell me.
We role-played your mom, we role-played your dad, and you did a great job.
Because they're the only other people in my head.
No, no, forget that.
Forget that, right?
You did a really good role play.
Well, I'm not...
Because I said, I would say this is you, what would your parents say?
Bang, you got it right away.
Yeah, that's pretty easy, because I can...
Because I know exactly how they're going to behave.
But that's all I'm saying.
And I can visualize. I'm not saying that...
All I'm saying is, I'm not saying you can run a marathon, I'm saying you ran down the street, right?
Well, sure, sure, sure. Right, so here's an example of a way in which you can engage your unconscious to get responses.
Now, okay, it's a little easier, I totally grant you, which is why I started with this.
It's a little easier to do this kind of roleplay than it is to roleplay with Mr.
Internal Angry or whatever, right?
I totally understand that, right?
Right. But I'm going to, like having worked this part, I'm going to advance a theory as to why our previous conversation was so debilitating, right?
Why it was like an attack of plague or something, or some sort of brain-wasting disease, right?
Yeah, it did sort of, it felt like I'd drunk a bottle of NyQuil or something.
Right, right, but without the fun high, right?
Okay, so, and if we do release this as a podcast, these are going to be in reverse order.
So people get this first and then they hear the solution, then they hear the problem, which I think would be better.
Sure. Plus, we don't want everybody falling over having naps at the same time.
We might have pilots listening, who knows, right?
But here's the thought.
Who is the most frustrating person in your life when you were growing up?
The most frustrating person.
Well, it's a pretty close race there.
between my mom and my dad But I would have to say I mean, excluding myself...
Probably...
Well, that's a tough call.
Right. Okay, um...
I mean, I don't mean to be fogging, but...
No, that's fine. That's fine. That's fine.
Your father would openly call people assholes and jerks, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But your mother never would, right?
No. Your father was outwardly aggressive.
Your mother was just endlessly manipulative, right?
Until her temper boiled over, yeah.
Yeah, and then she'd get aggressive.
But that was only if you kept pushing...
No, I'm sorry. It doesn't matter.
That would happen either way. So they're both equally frustrating.
Your dad would open...
Because what we had in the last conversation was the problem of misanthropy, right?
Hatred of all people. Right.
And the thing is, my dad would only be that open to people he wasn't intimidated by because of their social status or their job rank or something like that.
Right, right, right.
Right, so then you have the additional thing of, like, he's the big He-Man warrior who turns into, you know, cringing McVermin, right?
I mean, if somebody has more power, right?
He's either at your feet or at your throat, right?
Yeah, he's extremely conscious.
He was extremely conscious of power hierarchies.
Oh, sure, of course. That's the effect of him as a parent, right?
Okay, so what we're trying to do is trying to figure out...
Because the frustration that we both experienced in our last conversation had a lot to do with unconscious defenses, right?
Now, it would seem to me, this is just my thought, right, you let me know, that your mother's defenses against her own aggression were more unconscious.
Okay.
Because as you say, she never openly said that anybody was a jerk, right?
She'd just endlessly complain about them and then if confronted on any negative feelings, she'd say, oh no, I love them.
Right. Right, so that's really unconscious aggression, right?
Like your dad wouldn't sit there and complain about people for hour after hour, right?
And then say, no, but I love them.
No, no. Dad wouldn't do that.
He'd be like, yeah, that guy's an asshole, right?
Right. Okay.
Because where we got stuck in our last conversation was this list.
When your Mr.
Callous said, people are manipulative, cynical, self-important, deluded, close-minded, and hateful.
Right? Okay.
Now, later on in the conversation, you said...
that you were concerned, or we sort of worked on the thesis, that if you were openly misanthropic, that it would be being like your mother, right?
Oh.
Like I'm asking you to become your mom, right?
Right, but that's not exactly true, is it?
The reason it was so tiring was that you already were your mom.
Ha.
Ha.
Because...
I was...
Ha.
Oh. Let me see if I... Let me see if I got this.
Because I... Well, in simple terms, because I was complaining about people behind their back?
I would say that I don't recall you doing a lot of that, complaining about people behind their back.
I did think that you were unable to be openly hostile.
Oh yeah, the same thing happened in the call about the relationship thread.
I couldn't do it.
And it wasn't like I was restraining myself either.
It was like, the minute you asked me to do that, my mind went blank and I was rummaging through a black hole for answers.
Right. Well, we have more answers here than we did in that conversation.
Right. Right, because the lid came off to the point where you said, I don't care what they think.
Now, there was another phrase that you used, which was, what I say goes.
Now, did your mom, and it doesn't matter particularly, I'm just curious, because those two are sort of singular phrases, did your mom have this defense which said, but I don't care what they think?
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
She sure did. Alright.
Alright. And did your dad, and I'm sure I don't even need to ask, did your dad ever have a phrase which said, what I say goes?
Oh yeah. I put lots of money on that.
He actually, well, he made it absolutely explicit to the point that he had this favorite phrase of his, there's the right way, there's the wrong way, and then there's my way.
You're going to do it my way.
Right, exactly.
So what I say goes. Not what I say is right, but what I say goes, right?
Exactly. The Old Testament.
He openly acknowledged that he was the arbiter of what was going to happen in that house and whether or not it was right or wrong.
Right, right. So your mom had this curious enter the dragon hall of mirrors planet, right, where she doesn't care what other people think, but she can't stop talking about them.
Right. And when she's in their presence, she gets...
She's terrified. And won't say food.
Exactly. Which is sort of a contradiction.
If you don't care, then why are you terrified of speaking up?
When you say sort of a contradiction, can you tell me what part of that is not a contradiction?
Mr. Switzerland, I'm sorry, I'm going to just send the diplomatic embassy over.
At what point does it go from being just a harmless verbal tick to being a subconscious cue?
Oh, I'd say start with the subconscious cue myself, right?
Because getting you together with certainty about your family is like pushing two incredibly opposite, very powerful magnets together, right?
Can't quite get the detachment.
Right. We could reverse this polarity.
But see, this is my rough thesis.
You know, whether it makes any sense or not doesn't matter.
I'll just sort of mention it as a totally sketchy thesis.
Which was that we got through to...
The hostility that you had imbibed from your mother towards carbon-based life forms, let's say.
And then, when I attempted to engage with that hostility, you got very fluidly and very evasively defensive, insofar as you got silent, you changed the topic, you said you reversed your position, and so on, right?
Yeah, the reversal I didn't even notice.
And the reason that that I think is important, and the reason why this provoked all of these defenses, is that you felt at some level that if you were to express honest hostility that you felt towards people, that that would be being like your mother.
But that actually would be being the opposite of your mother.
Because your mother never directly expressed hostility to people, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.
And the reason that that was particularly hard for you was that there were people on the conference call.
Oh, that's interesting.
Right? Who were in the chat window, who were listening in.
Yeah. Yeah, that's very interesting.
And so in an effort to avoid your mother, you were being your mother because your whole mother's thing was to avoid herself.
Yep.
Yep.
And I think that's why it became so exhausting.
Yeah, because at some point I was so...
Confused by what it was that I was trying to accomplish.
That I didn't know what to say.
Well, you did always know exactly what to say, right?
Because there was good, strong, healthy defenses there, right?
Hmm. Ooh, look at that.
I was just excited by a donation.
It's 50 cents. I know, it's pretty funny.
Anyway, go ahead. It doesn't matter.
Why do people even bother doing that?
Oh, I think we know.
Yeah.
So, okay, so...
So, what happened was, when you expressed some hostility that you felt towards people...
you were actually accessing a layer of your mother that she was heavily defended against, right?
Yeah, in their presence, sure.
Yeah.
Sorry, what do you mean, in their presence?
Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by heavily defended against.
Your mother hates everybody.
But she claims to love them.
Oh yeah. And whenever you would get, try to get your mom to say, I don't like this person, I don't like my sisters, what would she say?
She would instantly deny it.
Right. Right.
Right. So, you got to a level of, because this is not, I don't believe this is innate to you, this hostility towards people.
I actually think, I think you quite like people.
Myself. Just my opinion, right?
Doesn't mean anything. It's just my opinion, right?
But... Well, that's curious...
Sorry, go ahead. That's curious.
What sort of...
What got you to that opinion?
You... You have lots of laughs when you talk to people in the chat window and on the call-in show and in our conversations...
And so on. And, you know, you liked Christina, you seemed to have a good time socializing in Miami, and so on.
Okay. Well, what about...
What if...
I mean Because I was thinking Right before you said that I was thinking to myself About That about My own Misanthropy
and how it's a hatred for the category, but Somehow I'm capable of allowing for instances that contradict it.
Right. If that makes any sense.
No, it means that you have a prejudice that is not empirical.
Like if I say, I hate blacks, right?
And then you say, well, you have this friend who's a black.
It's like, oh yeah, well, he's great. I say, well, you have this friend who's a black and you've joined this black volleyball league and you like going bowling with these guys who are all black.
And I say, oh yeah, those guys are all great, but I hate blacks, right?
And you say, okay, well, tell me the blacks that you hate, right?
And be like, oh, you know, there was this, I don't know, gang of black guys who beat me up when I was a kid, right?
It's like, okay, so you don't hate blacks, you hate people who beat you up, right?
I mean, you may be, you know, it could have been a bunch of Chinese guys, could have been, you know, white guys or whatever, right?
Yeah, that's a good point.
And it's not empirical, and we know that it's not empirical, because if I claim to hate blacks and yet have great relationships with a bunch of blacks, then I'm not deriving my judgment of blacks from the empiricism even of my life, right? Right, I'm assuming it from somewhere else.
Well, it's inflicted.
It means somebody else in your life hates blacks.
So we know that your misanthropy is not yours, right?
I mean, you're not even taking into account the time and energy that you have spent That's true.
I'm sure I'm totally ignoring that.
Just empirically. I mean, you're an amazingly helpful and highly respected person, and people have a great degree of affection for you.
Like anybody who's ever talked to me about you has always had the greatest degree of respect and affection, because you're very honest and open about things that you have that are problems and things that you have that are great and so on, right?
And for me... It's never enough, it seems.
What's never enough? I feel like...
Um Um Well like there's There's um How to put it Um You feel like it's not enough Like
No, like I haven't done enough to earn the praise.
Well, sure. No, I understand that.
I understand that. That might be the undertow of your mother's misanthropy.
But just to totally pound the point home, right?
Imagine that you and I were working on a screenplay, right?
And we said, okay, we need to create a guy who really hates people, right?
What kind of characteristics would he have?
Well, he'd be very open.
He'd be very honest. He'd be very vulnerable.
He'd really want to help others.
He'd love to go and visit with them.
He'd be very social, and he'd really enjoy interacting with them.
Would that be a very believable character as a Mr.
Throwback? No.
No, he would not be.
Right. Right.
Now, if we said we want to create a female character who hates everyone, what would we have her do?
Well, we'd have her smile to everyone's face and then bitch and complain to her helpless independent and stuck at a corner children for hours upon hours and then deny any kind of hostility she ever had, thus further messing with people's heads.
Like, that's the character that we would design that would be credibly called somebody who hates people, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
She really does hate people.
Oh, she really does. She really does.
And that's because she fears people, and that's because she's been an abuser, and it's the price you pay.
It's the price you pay for hurting children.
There's no end to the wretched hell that you create when you do this.
Now, if we were to say, how would we design a character whose nature it is to like people, but who has a block in accepting that?
We'd say, well, let's take the first guy and make him the kid of the second woman.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
So you absolutely do have an aspect of yourself that was inflicted upon you, right?
Nothing has a greater effect On the mind of a child than the unlived life of the parent.
This is a theory, I don't know if it's universally true, but it's not my theory, but it seems to be quite an important place to start.
Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to ask you to clarify that.
I'm not sure what you mean by unlived life of the parent.
Well, your mother really hated people, but never admitted it.
In fact, it would be the exact opposite, right?
Right, right, right. If you pressed her on it, she would definitely deny it.
You wouldn't even have to press her.
You'd just have to make even an oblique comment, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's true. You wouldn't have to have her up against the wall.
You just need to make something that would even be...
You know, it's interesting that...
Sorry, your mother has an unlived life of someone who really hates everyone, right?
Well, what you mean by that, then, is a consciously unexperienced life as that.
Yeah, like an unconscious desire with a conscious denial, right?
Right. Right.
Right, because you have, I mean, you're the mirror image, right, as we so often are of our mothers, right?
We can be Freudian for a moment, right?
So your mother unconsciously hates people.
Right? And consciously claims to love them, right?
Yeah. And you're quite the opposite.
Right? Unconsciously, you really like people.
But consciously, you say I have a problem with disliking people.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Because if you look at you, again, we don't make this look why I got snappy about you, again, sorry about that, but that's why I got snappy with you in the last conversation, right, where I said, stop making stuff up and work empirically.
Stop being religious and mythological with yourself and work empirically, right?
So you look at your empirical actions and you say, where's the evidence for the thesis that I don't like people?
I'm involved in the chattiest goddamn place in the internet, right?
I'm a intermediary between this wanked-out, ever-rambling philosopher dude and people who want to talk about him or about the theories or with each other or whatever, right?
Right. They'll call me for help.
They talk to me for help. I will answer emails with help.
I will stay up late trying to help people.
Where's the empirical evidence for my big hatred of people?
Right, right.
Yeah, you're right about that.
So, what we were doing in the last conversation was we shot a huge fucking torpedo into the side of your mom's unconscious hatred, right?
And we started reeling that fucker into the surface, right?
Yeah. And these provoked not your defenses, not your native natural defenses, but whose?
Hers. Right.
And then you said, well, if I express this, hatred, I'm being like my mom.
But that's actually the opposite of being like your mom.
And because we were merrily fucking off in the wrong direction, we got kind of exhausted, right?
Let's go deeper in the fog for clarity, right?
Right. Right.
You're exactly right.
I'm almost in the volcano.
I can see for sure now, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, you're right. That's exactly right.
Well, it's both being like her and not being like her, right?
No, no. Sorry.
It's being honest about the unconscious aspect of her, which is being the opposite of who she is, right?
Right, and the unconscious aspect is her misanthropy.
Yes, her misanthropy.
And the conscious aspect is her denial of it.
But if you put those two together, it's the opposite of her, right?
The way that you get rid of this misanthropy is to express it and make it conscious, which is exactly what she did the opposite of her whole life.
Right. Right.
Right, you're right. But...
What does it mean for me to express it, though, because...
I mean, like you say, just working empirically, I can see that it's just...
I mean, I would be just sort of, like...
Making shit up.
No, no, because you understand misanthropy, because you were raised by a woman who had no problem getting her unconscious hate on, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Like, I know mysticism and vanity and craziness and violence.
I know all of those things.
I even know entitlement, though, right?
Because I can write the bad characters in my novels, right?
So, I know...
These thoughts and feelings.
I know that they're not mine natively, but I know them.
And I can inhabit and express them as I do in these horrible characters that I have in some of my novels, right?
Reginald's touchiness and vanity and, right?
I mean, I know that stuff, right?
And you know misanthropy, and you can play the part of a misanthropist really well because it's imprinted on you, right?
The same way that if you grew up in a household speaking German, you can speak German, right?
Doesn't mean you love German, just means you've been exposed to it, right?
Right, right. And it doesn't mean you...
doesn't even mean you are...
German. German, if that makes any sense.
If you're raised by German parents in Uzbekistan, whatever, right?
Because there's, like you say, there's a true self in there somewhere, and that has existence independent of whatever else is being impressed upon you.
As a child, so to assume that the identity that you have, the characteristics of your personality that you have are all yours, Is to deny the distinction between the imprinting and the true character.
Right, right. I mean, the Miko system is also partly the personalities that are impressed upon us, upon our natural wax, so to speak, like those signet rings of the Middle Ages, right?
It doesn't mean that we're not wax anymore.
It just means that we have an impression.
And it comes from culture.
It comes from teachers. It comes from siblings.
That's why we... Because we are an amalgam of a whole bunch of our true selves and a whole bunch of personalities pressing up against us, right?
For good and for ill. Right.
And that makes perfect sense.
And that's why the I, as a singular point of conscious control, just doesn't make much sense, right?
Right. It's like saying there's one of my organs that is me alone, right?
We could say, well, it's the brain.
It's like, well, but take everything else away.
The brain dies in 30 seconds, right?
Right. So there is no I that is just one part of your brain or one part.
The body is an ecosystem.
There's not even an I that's just one point in time either.
No, that's right. That's right.
So for you to be able to express misanthropy would be to make it conscious and to identify it as an influence upon your life, an impression upon you that is not just you.
It's not you. And that's to make it conscious and to bring it into the personality and say, yeah, you know, there's a part of me That knows a hell of a lot about what it's like to unconsciously hate people, everyone. And the only way that I can fight that part is to bring it to the conscious mind.
And when you put it in those terms, you kind of...
You have to give it some sort of form.
You have to give it a name. You have to give it a shape.
And that's what these daemon characters are all about, right?
Otherwise, there's no...
Otherwise, there can't be any distinction between the genuine character and the impression.
Right. You can't see it.
You can see it, and if you remain afraid of it, it dominates you, right?
Right. Right, because then that's what was happening in the call earlier today.
You had a rule in you which says, misanthropy cannot be expressed.
Right, but then you let the cat out of the bag...
Everybody's an asshole, so to speak, right?
And then, in the rule, that kicked in the rule called, this cannot be expressed, which is your mom's rule, and your dad's rule, and your brother's rule, and your aunt's rule, and your fucking extended kooked up backwards family rule, right?
Yeah. Yeah, um...
It can't be expressed, but it's still a core part of who they are.
Well, yeah, I mean, if you've got a rule which says, don't let this prisoner out, you know damn well there's a prisoner, right?
Right. Right, right.
And of course, if you end up guarding, not you, but if your family ends up guarding this hatred of everyone and pretending it's not true and so on, right?
They don't get to be free.
Like, if you've got a stand guard outside a prison door, you're not free, right?
And if you say...
Who I am is bigger than my impressions, than the things, these daemons, these aspects of other people that have been impressed upon me.
Then I can inhabit that.
I can toy around with it.
I can play with it. I can express it because I'm bigger than that.
Yeah. It is within me, right?
Yeah, and earlier it was scaring the crap out of me.
And I was mostly afraid because...
I was certain I was going to alienate people.
Right. Which, I wouldn't have been afraid of that if that was actually something that didn't matter to me.
Right. You thought that people would mistake this infection of misanthropy for your true self.
Right, right.
And if it was my true self, then I wouldn't care at all about saying these things.
But no true self hates everyone.
It's always a defense, right?
Misanthropy is always a defense.
It's impossible for a true self to be hated, in my view.
That's like saying a healthy body has cancer.
It's just an oxymoron, right?
Yeah, I guess that's a good point.
Whereas you read something like the godforsaken trip into hell called Almost, right?
And you don't say, Reginald is Steph's true self, right?
No. You're like, wow, this guy's had some exposure to evil because he can write about it, right?
And not explicit evil.
Reginald doesn't kill people.
He doesn't beat his children.
He doesn't... Right.
No, the question that comes to mind is, well, who is he basing this guy on?
And if I had thought it was you, I wouldn't be asking that question of myself.
If you thought what was me.
If I thought Reginald was you.
Right, right, right.
I'll be asking the question.
Right. So, that's like, if you have a framework of a true self, right, and you say, I am strong enough to take on the criticisms of misogyny, Misanthropy.
Sorry, of misanthropy.
Although in my case, maybe it's both.
Carbon-based, as we said before, right?
Goddamn palmetto bugs.
But then, of course, what you're afraid of, and this is a real and just fear, Craig, because this does happen as we know, right?
But what you're afraid of...
What do you mean by...
Sorry? Sorry? No, go ahead.
Go on. What you're afraid of is that if you express your mother's...
If you roleplay your mother's misanthropy, right?
That some people are going to attack you for that, right?
And mistake you for your mother's misanthropy, right?
Yeah. Because of their own impressions in history and bad self-management, right?
That's an interesting point, right?
But you want to see those people, right?
You want to see those people.
If there are going to be blow dots in the jungle, you want them to be fluorescent, right?
So you can duck. You're right.
You're absolutely right. Yeah, that's absolutely right.
And the funny thing, of course, is that you seem to be the person, and I would stake everything on this, you seem to be the person in your family who likes people the most, right?
In an odd, ironic sort of way, I guess that's true.
No, not in an odd, ironic way.
In a completely open and empirical and obvious way.
Because you're working as hard as you can to have genuine and positive and helpful interactions with people, right?
And your brothers are joining churches in the military.
Yeah. That's absolutely true.
And who is considered to be the most misanthropic or the only misanthrope in your family?
That would be me.
Right. This is so typical in wildly dysfunctional families that the person who is the most virtuous is considered to be the worst.
And has to carry the sins, right?
There's a reason why that Jesus metaphor works so well for people, right?
Has to carry the sins of the entire tribe.
Yeah. I mean, I would say that I'm the least manipulative person on the internet that I know of, right?
And, you know, these guys on this other board...
They consider me to be the most dishonest and manipulative person on the internet, right?
Right, or anywhere for that matter.
Yeah, anywhere at any time.
You're the guy that they're spending all their time on.
Right, and this is the same thing as you, right?
The family gets to project all of the unconscious misogyny onto you so that they feel temporary relief, right?
The same way these guys get to portray...
to get to project all of their hatred and frustration and whatever, right?
Hypocrisy and so on, onto me, right?
Temporary relief, right?
Project your sins onto others and then attack the other, right?
That's the goat, the sacrificial goat in RTR, the book.
Right.
And so, in a sense, right, we know who we are by taking the mirror image of what our families say, right?
Yeah.
Right, so everybody in my family thinks that I just play the victim and this and that and the other, right?
Thank you.
Sure. But I'm actually the one who refuses to be victimized or victimize others.
I mean, I'm as far as a victim from a victim as you can think, I would imagine, right?
Well, yeah. Everybody says that I am addicted to other people's thoughts and can't think for myself, right?
And I would say that there may be things that I have lots of flaws at, but not thinking for myself is definitely not one of them.
In fact, you're probably one of a handful of people on the planet that actually does think for himself.
I think so, rightly or wrongly.
And so the idea that I'm a slavishly reproducing other people's thoughts when I think that I've contributed a fair amount of original material that's unusual to the variety of realms is...
So how is it that I know who I am?
Well, I'm the exact opposite of what my family tells me I am.
Yeah, and all these years...
Sorry, I just need to look to the evidence for that, right?
The actual facts of what I do rather than what people tell me I'm like.
Yeah. Or even what I tell myself I'm like.
Sorry, go on. What's interesting about that though is that because...
Because I had sort of...
not sort of but I was pretty much living out what they said I was until until until this all started and
And do you know what happens if you don't do that to them?
If your family says to you, you just hate everyone and you're just a bitter this, that, and the other, right?
I mean, I spent seven years living in a little house in Wisconsin hiding from everybody.
Oh, you were definitely well on your way to being the get-off-my-lawn-kids guy, right?
Yeah, yeah. And it was just making me so sick of myself that I couldn't stand it anymore.
The genesis of Boo Gauthier was definitely...
Goddamn kids, get off my lawn!
You got your pants up to your nipples and they'll suspend them.
Right, and the fact that you were willing to take on that role is a twisted kind of, obviously, tribute to the power of your family, but...
When you no longer are willing to take on that role, then your family feels a great deal of suffering and pain because they don't have an easy receptacle to put their projections into.
And what it means is that the misanthropy that they're all pouring into you, then it comes back to themselves.
And they don't want that. That's where our families defoo with us when we start playing out our roles, right?
Because it's like, well, fuck, if you're not going to eat my shit, what use are you?
Right. Right.
That's exactly right.
If you're not going to be the family Jesus, then I'm no longer in this religion, right?
Well, and that's kind of what happened, too, at least for me.
It doesn't seem to be the...
My experience is, in terms of the deflu, is as common as what most people go through, but when I finally said, enough's enough, and just, you know, walked off, they were like, Well, good riddance.
Like you say, I don't want to be bothered with you anymore.
Right. My projection machine is broken.
I'm throwing it out. Right.
Except for my mother, who hounded me for months after that.
Everybody else was like, fuck them.
Right, but your mother...
You were the receptacle for your mother's misanthropy, which is why she hounded you, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.
So she faced that most of all.
Right, it's almost like...
She was kind of using me as a...
Like, if there could be one more version of her, she could feel better about herself.
Right. Right.
Right. So, how do you feel about this conversation?
Much better. Good.
I certainly didn't want to leave it where we left it with the last conversation because that was, you know, we can't both be plowing into the couch for an hour after we talked.
Right. And in talking it over with Christina about my experience of the conversation and so on, Of course, the problem is that my mom hates everyone too, which is probably why we had this little perfect storm.
Right.
So just to lift a lid here, I mean, we both we both know this scenario of people refusing to admit their own hostilities and so on.
So that's why I got more irascible than I should have been.
But I think that's that's why I think it was good to go one level deeper and try and figure out what was going on.
And I certainly feel a lot better than after the last conversation.
In fact, I feel quite positive indeed relative to that.
So that's why I was revisiting.
Yeah, I still feel like...
There's some work I need to do in this area, but I do feel like...
Oh, no, you're done. No, no, me too, right?
Sorry, go on. Oh, I was making noises.
But after the first conversation, I just felt like I had loaded myself up with a...
A cart full of cinder blocks.
I've got dolly putt boobs hanging all off my body.
I must lie down. No, of course.
But that's very instructive as well, right?
Oh, sure. Sure.
It's hard to...
In that frame of mind, it's hard to think your way out of it.
Well, you can't, right? You can't.
Okay, well, let me compile these.
I'd like to release them in reverse order myself, if that's alright with you, but you might want to have a listen to them first and see what you think.
Certainly. Alright, man.
I really appreciate this. Thanks a lot.
Oh, man, thank you. I appreciate it, too.
I'll talk to you soon. Alright.
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