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Feb. 22, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:07:03
991 Helpless (A Listener Convo)

Helpless in the face of helplessness.

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Time Text
Hello. Hello. Hey, how's it going?
Um, okay.
So you were feeling a little strongly?
Yeah. So what was happening?
Sorry. No, no problem.
No problem at all. Feelings.
They don't feel good, but they're good for you.
Yeah.
I don't know, I just got really scared.
Like, um...
Because, um, when you didn't message me back, I thought, you know, you know, maybe I had done something wrong, and, you know, you didn't want to talk to me or something, and then I felt like I'd never, like, be able to figure this stuff out.
And it's... It's just been really emotional because...
I keep feeling like I have to go back there.
Back to see your parents?
Yeah. Right, right.
Because there are things I need to get, and it's getting really scary.
Right, right.
Well, why don't you start by, and I'm sorry that it took me a little while to get back to you, why don't you start by telling me, or just giving me the story of where you're at with your parents, and what's been going on?
Um... Well, I realized about a month ago that I really, really wanted to do food, and I was living at home.
They have been paying for everything for me.
They've been paying for my school and, you know, my car and everything, so...
You know, they had basically owned everything that I had, so I decided that I wanted...
The first thing I had to do was start to be financially independent, so I went and talked to them and told them that I wanted to pay for my own school, and that's when things started to get really out of control, because... Sorry to interrupt you.
What was it that happened a month ago that gave you this realization?
I had just been thinking a lot about my past and paying attention to just, I mean, how I felt when I was around my parents,
particularly my dad, because that's the parent that I realized I had to focus more on because he's the parent that I thought I had You know, kind of liked or admired or whatever and I just was thinking a lot about you know,
what he had done when I was a kid and How it made me feel sad and a little angry like him being nice to me now.
And I just kind of realized that nothing was going to get better and I didn't even want it to get better.
So that's when it was kind of like the only option.
Right, right. And so the way that you sort of planned your escape was to begin detaching yourself from their financial support, but when you indicated that or your desire for that, things got worse. Is that right?
Yeah. And how did the things get worse?
What happened? Well, they told me, like, We've been saving for paying for your college, and it was something that was making us really proud, as if I was hurting them by trying to make a decision for myself.
And I kind of pointed that out to them.
I was like, look, I can't really base my life decisions around your desire for a sense of pride and that sort of thing.
And that's when my mother, she started to have She started to get really, really nervous, I guess, and tried to corner me with all these questions like, you know, do you ever want to see us again?
You know, stuff I wasn't ready to talk about, yeah.
So, the moment that you began to talk about financial independence, they sensed, in a sense, your motivations for that?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Right. So they're pretty smart, right?
Right. I mean, it's a kind of evil genius, but they're pretty on the ball, right?
Yeah. Right.
And did you talk to them, and there's no right or wrong, I'm just curious, right, but did you talk to them about...
Your feelings, your history, some of the suffering that you'd undergone or anything like that, or was that not something that you felt was going to be a safe thing to do?
No, I didn't do that.
I didn't think it was safe.
Right. Well, I'm sure that you're right.
I'm sure that that was quite wise.
And so when your mom said, like, do you never want to see us again, what was your response to that?
I said, I'm not ready to talk about that.
I said, actually, no I didn't, I said, I started kind of like RTR, I was like, I feel angry then because, you know, I feel as if you're you know, I feel as if you're just saying that to guilt me.
Right.
Right. That's not exactly RTR, but it's pretty close, right?
Because you kind of go into a conclusion there, but that doesn't matter.
I mean, you're not in a relationship that you don't really want to sustain, but they obviously saw that you were frightened and angry by the interaction, right?
Yeah. And what was their response to that?
Was it just to turn up the pressure, or...?
Um...
Well, my mom, she just kind of like, was like, I'm not guilting you.
I guess she just threw her hands up and walked away.
But, you know, she keeps, every time I go over there to get stuff, she keeps descending on me with those questions.
And what's your dad doing in all of this?
My dad is not, he's only home on the weekends.
I mean, every time I see him, he kind of just seems really, really mad.
But he doesn't say much, and that scares me.
What? Because it's kind of like...
My dad has, you know, this temper that it's just kind of...
He'll just kind of sit there and see you for a while, and then he'll blow up at you, so...
Right, right.
The other day they invited me out to dinner and I knew they were just gonna like attack me and I didn't know what else to do because there are still some things that I need from them so I went out and he kind of like was I'm sorry.
I'm so sorry. I mean, it's astounding.
You know, I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I'm sure.
We don't defoo, right?
We get defood, right?
Because what you're saying to your parents is, I'm not happy with our relationship, right?
Like you didn't walk into there out of the blue and say, screw you, mom and dad, I'm never going to talk to you again, right?
Right.
What you did was you went in and you said, I would like to change our relationship.
And you were talking about it at the financial level, right?
And it's not like you were saying, I want your car.
You were saying, I want to pay my own way, right?
Yeah.
But, so it's not, and this is, I mean, this was the same experience that I had, if it's any consolation, which is that I didn't go in to talk to my family, oh, those many years ago.
I didn't go in there because I wanted to break up with them or anything like that.
It wasn't really even on my mind, because this was obviously before FDR. It wasn't even an alternative that I thought of.
I went in there and just tried to have some effect on the relationship.
In other words, I went in to talk to my family to see if...
Well, not even to see, I thought I could.
Like, I thought I could say, look, I don't like this, and I don't like that, and we need to talk about it.
And everyone fell on me like a ton of bricks, right?
So, I didn't...
I mean, we don't actually defoo.
What your parents are doing is making it impossible for you to continue to have a relationship.
Right, yeah.
They're de-daughtering you, right?
Does that make sense? Oh, yeah.
And that's just important, because what they're going to try and make you feel It's that you're doing something to them, right?
Something bad, something negative, something spiteful, something childish.
They're going to try to make you feel that you're doing something to them, but you're not.
Yeah. What you're doing is you're saying, I want to have some decisions, some input, some reciprocity in this relationship.
And now what they're doing is they're kicking you out.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Because it's so easy to take that big burden on ourselves, right?
Right. I mean, I kind of thought, you know, there's no way that my parents...
Would think that what they're doing has any effect that's making me want to stay.
Like if that's what they're afraid of.
So of course they're trying to get me to leave or something like that.
Like if they're smart enough to figure out that a move towards financial independence on your part threatens their control and influence and quote value over you.
If they're smart enough to figure that out.
Then they're sure as hell smart enough to know that if you bully somebody who's not happy with their relationship with you, you're going to end that relationship.
Right. Like if Christina wakes up one day and says, Steph, I'm not happy with this marriage, I want things to change, and I call her a selfish bitch, what am I basically doing?
Trying to get her out.
I'm ending the marriage. She's not ending the marriage.
I'm ending the marriage, right?
She's just expressing a preference, which she's perfectly free to do, right?
If I then begin to belittle and control and abuse and manipulate, then clearly I'm the one who's entering the marriage.
And that's the great secret behind the defu, is that we're not the ones who bust up the marriage with our parents.
We're not the ones who bust up that relationship.
All we do is we express a preference and then we watch them detonate this whole relationship.
And blame us. Right?
And blame us. Right.
So, sorry, I just wanted to get that point across because I know that you're facing a lot of propaganda about your poor, helpless parents that you were doing something to, right?
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it's not true. They're doing it to you.
You simply expressed a preference, and a pretty mild one at that.
Right. I mean, isn't that part of what you feel, like this kind of crushing burden of guilt and responsibility?
Well, I mean, I actually, I think I kind of got that it was the other way around, that they were doing this to me.
But what I kind of feel is just that it's, that I'm trapped and then I have to keep going back there that I'm trapped and then I have to keep going back there and they keep Now, tell me, I don't understand this part.
What do you have to keep going back for?
I'm sure there's excellent reasons, I just don't understand them.
Well, for example, I need to get...
Them to sign my car over, if they will, because it's their car, they bought it for me.
And what happens if you don't have a car?
Then I can't go to school or have a job.
There's no public transit, there's no other alternatives, there's nobody you can hitch a ride with?
Well, I could get...
I could drive Rich's car, but he might...
I don't know, he might be changing his job soon, so he might need it for his work.
I just don't know, like, if it's possible.
See, myself, I didn't own a car or have access to a car until I was 33.
So the necessity of a car has never been quite clear to me.
Yeah. Well, I'm...
We've kind of got an apartment we're moving in, and I definitely need a car in order to get to school, which is like a half hour away, so...
I'm sorry, and there's no public transit that can get you to the school?
Not that I know of.
I don't think so. Well, it's important to look into, in my opinion.
In my opinion, right?
Because they paid for the car, right?
Right. And if you find them to be morally abhorrent, and if wanting the car gives them some control over you, I would take the bus for ten years before I would take that car, because you will never get the car, you will only get subjugation.
I mean, when I was going to university, I didn't have a car, and there was no bus that went there, and I biked for like 45 minutes to get to university and back.
In the rain, in the snow, right?
I mean, whatever it takes, right?
You've got power, you've got choices, you've got options.
And, by the way, it would be much cheaper to take that approach, right?
No parking, no gas, no maintenance, no whatever, right?
no insurance right yeah I mean obviously one thing I need is my birth certificate They've got to give me that. I think you can get copies of your birth certificate.
Like you can write too.
I know that you can get copies of your birth certificate because people lose their birth certificates in fires and so on and then they can get copies.
Okay. I just, I mean, I don't know why.
Maybe I'm just making all this stuff up.
I don't know why I'd be doing that.
Well, I'm not saying that you are making it up, right?
Because obviously it's nice to have a car and it's nice to have a birth certificate.
I mean, I understand all of that.
So I'm not saying you are making anything up.
But we do know that...
Your parents prefer it if you need them for something, right?
That's why they didn't like it when you started talking about financial independence, right?
They prefer it when you need them for something.
So this need that you have for things that are there might be their desire rather than your desire, right?
Right. And I'm sorry, do you still have any siblings who float around these people?
Yeah. Yeah, well, your siblings can do it for you, right?
Um, no. He's really mad at me.
Who? Oh, your brother is mad at you?
Yeah. Right.
Right. Yeah, I mean, I know it's tough.
I know it's tough. But...
having to have a car right and there is this kind of intangible thing that you know the pride of not being under the thumb of people because of that yeah now that having been said if you can get the car without a lot of hassle and it's not going to cause you a lot of problems I'd say go for it I'm People who screw up your childhood at least should owe you a car.
I have no problem with that.
But if it's this drawn-out thing that is causing you huge amounts of stress and anxiety, right?
Because what I got a sense of when we first started talking was that you felt trapped, as you say, trapped and helpless, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what happens when we have desires around bad people, right?
Right. They make us feel trapped and helpless and frustrated and dependent and confused, right?
And they will use the car and they will use the birth certificate and they will use everything else as a way of frustrating and controlling you.
Yeah. Because, I mean...
Also, we were going to move my furniture out of my room when we moved out, and I was there the other day getting clothes or whatever, and my mom was like, you know, now what in this room do you think is yours?
Sure. Yeah, this is like a divorce, right?
Where people are going to get really ugly.
I can't even tell you the amount of stuff that we have over at Christina's parents' place that we have no access to.
Like a four-poster bed, like books, like stuff that we need, old photographs, everything that you can imagine.
We stored there when we were living in a small condo.
And maybe we'll get it back after they're dead.
I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no.
But that's only stuff, right?
Right. I mean, who cares, fundamentally?
What's important is your peace of mind and your happiness and your contentment and your independence and your self-reliance and your pride.
Not a piece of paper, a car, clothing, some furniture.
Like, all that stuff can be replaced, right?
But the dread that you have on continuing to have to interact with these people and continuing to be dependent upon them, there's no price that's worth that.
And again, this is just my opinion, right?
I don't know all of the material circumstances that you're laboring under.
And wouldn't it be nice to have that burden lifted from you?
Thank you.
Yeah. Doesn't sound like you're experiencing it that nice, but that's okay.
I'm just curious what you're feeling.
Are you guys scared?
Scared of what? Like, what happens if I decide to, you know, not worry about that stuff anymore and just never go over again?
Well, what happens? Isn't that a good thing?
Yeah, but I don't know.
I'm scared. Well, again, you've heard me drone on about this before, and I hope you will again, but that's not your feeling, for sure.
That's not your feeling. That's not your feeling at all.
Because if it's beneficial to you, you're going to feel good about it.
So whose feeling is it?
Who feels really terrible if you don't ever go over again?
My parents. Right.
This is their emotion. This is their feeling.
This is the tripwires and the bomb that they put in.
You, to control you, right?
This is the remote control that parents install, certain kinds of parents install in their children, right?
Yes. But you, I mean, not to wish this on anyone, but if they got hit by a bus tomorrow and died painlessly, wouldn't there be a kind of relief?
Yeah. Right?
So, if you would feel a kind of relief when somebody dies, why would you feel bad for not seeing them?
them and if they die you're never going to see them again I mean you're not going to feel relief if your boyfriend gets hit by a bus Or you. But you feel relief with these people, so what could it mean to say that you'd be unhappy or anxious or whatever, scared, if you never saw them again?
Well, that can't be your feeling, because you're willing to feel relieved, or you would feel relieved to some degree if they got hit by a bus.
Right. So it can't be your feeling.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Right. Now, do you feel that...
Because you feel kind of small and helpless still, right?
Yeah. Okay, so rather than me theorizing, tell me where is that coming from?
Because you're taking a huge step here towards freedom and independence, right?
Right. And they are revealing their true colors through this process, right?
Yeah. And you are probably going through some very early childhood feelings here, because the last time you tried to stand up for yourself was probably when you were very, very young, right?
Yeah, I mean, they're acting kind of like...
I don't remember them acting like this since I was maybe 12.
Right. Right. Right.
So why do you think there's such, and I'm not saying this is true all the time, but in the phase that you're going through right now, why do you think there's so little pleasure at the prospect of independence?
I don't know.
Is the dominant emotion that you're feeling at the moment with regards to them, is it fear?
Yes. Oh.
Yeah. Okay.
Well, that's good, right? So we know what the primary emotion is.
And what are the thoughts that are preceding the fear?
Like, you have to be scaring yourself with some kind of story.
And by story, I don't mean that it's necessarily false, but there's a thought or a series of thoughts that you're having prior to the emotion.
They're going to... What?
You can, like, come over.
And do what?
I don't know, like, um...
Like, I don't know, this is, I don't know, it sounds really crazy.
Like, they're just gonna come over and pound on the door and, like, you know, wait for us, me and Rich, and try to, I don't know, confront us somehow, I don't know, I'm just...
Oh, I know, because, I mean, Christine's parents have done this a couple of times.
Right. Right?
They come pounding on the door, right?
Yeah. So what do you do?
If they do that? Right.
And then if they keep pounding on the door, you call the cops, right?
Right. But you're not a kid anymore.
You have the right of peace and security and serenity within your own home, right?
Yeah.
And nobody, nobody gets to be pounding on your door and scaring you.
Christina and I have got this thing worked out because she might be with a patient, right?
When they come by. That she's going to stay with her patient.
I'm going to have to go downstairs, open the door to her parents and say, you will now leave our property or I will call the police and furthermore we will be getting a restraining order.
I'm going to go to the wall to protect my wife.
I'm not a kid anymore.
And if people want to start screwing with me, I'm going to make it stop, right?
You have the complete right to freedom and security and peace within your own home.
If your parents violate that, if your siblings violate that, if a tramp violates that, you take the appropriate action to secure your environment.
Right.
And you're not doing this alone, right?
Yeah. So, what abusers do is they isolate you, right?
Yes. And the way that you fight that isolation is through, obviously, that's great, talk to me, talk to your boyfriend, but recognize that you are in a social environment where you have property rights, and you can exercise those property rights Right.
Right.
So it's to remember that it's not you alone with your parents, right?
Yeah.
Because when you feel less alone, then you're less easy to frighten, right?
Thank you.
Yeah. So there's two things that you can do to reduce their power over you.
One is to stop wanting stuff that they have of, quote, yours or whatever, right?
And the second is to remember that you have control over your own property, and you can use whatever means necessary in terms of the law to keep them away.
Right.
You're not helpless.
You're not dependent.
You're not under their thumb in the way that it feels like.
and it only feels that way because of course that was the case for many many years right and now you have all the power I know it doesn't feel like that right now.
You, my young friend, have all the power in this situation.
Right? This is not an ex-husband who's a bastard who you have children with, right?
Where you've got to share custody and you've got to get alimony and you've got to get child support and you've got to go to the...
Right? This is your parents.
They're part of your past. They're part of your history.
They have no legal rights over you whatsoever.
They're just some jerks you grew up with, unfortunately.
Right.
They have no more legal power and control over you than they would be if they'd rented out some room in the house and some guy had lived around you while you were growing up.
Thank you.
Yeah. So they have no legal control over you.
They have no financial control over you.
You're making the steps for that.
They can't invade your property.
They can't even be within 200 feet of you if you don't want them to be.
They can't call you.
They can't email you.
They have zero rights, zero power.
The parents, they don't understand, and of course they've had little reason to in the past, but they don't understand that it's a very, very tenuous relationship.
They treat children like the children are just going to be around forever.
You know, the way that a jerk would treat his wife if he knew for sure she could never, ever, ever divorce him and would be completely dependent upon him for the rest of his life.
But what I'm always trying to say is it's a voluntary relationship.
And parents have no legal rights over their adult children.
Adult children can walk out of their parents' lives and never ever get in contact with them again in any way whatsoever.
And the law says nothing.
I can't divorce my wife.
Thank you.
Without there being legal repercussions.
I can't have children with someone without there being legal repercussions.
I can't sign a contract and break it without there being legal repercussions.
I can't steal a car without there being legal repercussions.
But you can ditch a parent.
There's nothing. They have nothing to hold onto except Your doubts and fears which they've created in you, right?
So you have all the power here.
It's the complete reversal of what happened when you were a kid.
And if you can refrain from attacking yourself, they have no weapons at all.
The only weapon they have over you is you.
They can't make you feel bad.
They could when you were a kid, because they had power over you.
They can't make you feel bad anymore.
Only you can, right?
Yeah.
All they have is voodoo.
Thank you.
Which, if you don't believe in it, doesn't work, right?
Right. And the small and helpless and powerless feeling that you experience is what they want you to feel.
That's their goal for you to feel that.
Yeah. I mean, that's pretty much what's been going on the whole time I've been living here is I just don't...
I've been worried about whether I can find a job, whether I could even do this or anything like that.
Right. Right.
Right. And, of course, they want you to feel helpless.
They want you to feel controlled, right?
Yeah. They want you to feel like you can't make it without them, right?
Right. Right.
That's, again, the standard abusive behavior, right?
The guy who's abusing his wife doesn't want her to feel like she's really competent, right?
Yeah. I guess I had no idea how really scared I was the whole time I've been here with all this stuff.
Been at your boyfriend's, you mean?
Yeah. Right.
Right. And what does that tell you?
I mean, what does that fear tell you?
I don't know.
I mean...
What does it tell me now?
Yeah. That I should...
I don't know.
The fear I'm talking about is the fear that I'm not going to be able to do this.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, but tell me what it means when you say my fear is the fear that I'm not going to be able to do this.
Do you mean sort of separate from your parents?
Right, like, just practically.
I mean, emotionally I don't think I have a problem with it.
Well, that ship already sails, right?
Right, right. And right now it's just like, you know, I'm going to...
I think you can't go back. Yeah.
I mean, even if you wanted to, right?
Even if somebody said, I'll pay you a million dollars to go back and be friendly with your parents, you can't, right?
Right. Yeah, I know.
It's just... So it's the car and the birth certificate that stand between you and freedom?
Well, it's also the fear that I'm going to, like, things are going to fall apart and I'm going to need to go back and all that stuff.
Like, okay, that's, how would that happen, right?
How would things seriously, like, fall apart?
Like what? Like I can't get a job, um, you can't pay the rent, and that sort of thing.
But then don't you go on welfare or something?
And get roommates? Right.
Right, I, yeah.
No, seriously, right? I mean, you know, I mean, you're gonna pay into the damn system for the rest of your life.
Rather than go back to an abusive environment, I'd say take the damn welfare.
Right. Right?
Sell a kidney! Yeah.
eBay, right? I mean, whatever it takes.
Get a job flipping burgers.
Right. Get a job as a waitress.
You can do that, right?
Yeah. I mean, if it's any consolation, and I'm not sort of trying to pump myself up here, but if it's any consolation, I mean, we kicked my mom out when I was 15.
I still had three years of high school left to go.
You get roommates, you work two jobs, like, whatever you've got to do, you do.
But you're never going back.
You're never going back.
Yeah.
He won't let you.
Your boyfriend won't let you. He knows what it'll do to you, right?
When you have two smart, resourceful, intelligent people in a relatively free society, the option called going back to live at home is not an option.
It's not even close to an option.
Going back to live with your parents would be the equivalent of an emotional kind of suicide.
Oh yeah. So that's not going to happen.
That is never going to happen.
Even if you end up as a paraplegic, that is not going to happen.
Yeah. Now they want you to believe that you can't make it on your own.
You don't want to burn your bridges.
You might need a place to come home to and so on.
No. You don't need that.
As a backup plan, there's no plan B called going back there.
Right. We wouldn't respect somebody who comes out of prison and says, well, I'll try to get a job, but if I don't, I'll just go back to prison.
Yeah. Even having that in your repertoire is going to weaken you, right?
It's going to make you feel fearful.
Once you say, well, I don't know what's going to happen in my life, I don't have all the answers, but I tell you what's not going to happen is I'm never going back home.
Right. If you can't get a job doing something, you get a job doing something else.
Yeah.
If you have to get a job flipping burgers, that's still going to be far mentally healthier for you than going back to an abusive environment, which will...
I mean, if you can't get a job in the field that you want and you go back home, your self-esteem will get so crushed you won't even be able to get out of bed in the morning, let alone get a job in a field you want.
That's not an option, practically or psychologically.
But... ...
I mean, if your parents were abducted by space aliens and their house burnt down to the ground, you wouldn't sit there and say, well, I could move back in with my parents, right?
Yeah.
But this is the same thing.
Yeah.
Well, you know, you're not doing much here to help me with this, I've got to tell you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to give you some words of encouragement, but you're not rousing, right?
You're not rallying. This doesn't mean much to you, right?
Yeah, I don't...
You don't feel any better, right?
I don't know why, because it all makes sense.
Well, I mean, there's nothing else I can do, right?
I mean, I can tell you the facts of the matter and give you some words of encouragement, but you have to try and throw this weight off yourself, right?
I mean, I can't. Nobody can, right?
Right. And what that means is that there's something that you're thinking about that you're not telling me.
And maybe you don't know what it is, right?
Yeah. But it's like I'm a dentist and you're coming in and you're saying, this bottom right tooth hurts, right?
And so I, you know, oh, there's a cavity.
And then I numb it and it starts drilling.
And you're like, no, it hurts, it hurts, it hurts, right?
right well then we're looking at the wrong to train okay tell me the last time was that you got to magnificently angry
I think probably when they had me out to dinner last time.
Okay, you can't have been angry then.
Because what's missing here for you is anger.
Right? Because you still feel pretty much as helpless and pathetic as when we first started talking.
I'm not saying you are, but that's how you feel, right?
Yeah. Yeah, but...
I was pretty angry.
I don't... Well, why didn't that stay with you?
Probably because of the feeling that I had to go back.
Well, but we've just been talking about this feeling that you have to go back for like 45 minutes, right?
And it's made no effect on you whatsoever.
So it can't be that, right?
Like, I'm happy to put lots of energy into people's issues, but you've got to meet me halfway, right?
Or you don't have to do anything, you don't have to do anything, right?
But what I'm feeling is a frustration and irritation with you in particular, right?
This doesn't mean anything, right?
It's just what I feel, right?
It could be totally wrong. Because it's like you're lying there in a heap saying, all I want to do is get up, right?
And I say, oh, okay, well, here's a railing.
And your hand comes up and then it flops back down again, right?
I say, oh, okay, well, I'll help you to a sitting position, right?
Because you really, you say to me, I really want to get up.
And I help you to a sitting position, right?
And then you just kind of delicately slide off the chair and so on, right?
Right. At some point, I have to question whether you actually want to get up.
Does this make any sense?
Yeah. Now, what are you feeling now?
Because I'm not mad at you, right?
I understand. I'm just frustrated at the situation, right?
I think you're a wonderful, wonderful woman, right?
But there's frustration that's occurring for me in the situation, right?
And that's making you feel something, which is absolutely important.
So what is it that you're feeling?
I don't know how I feel...
I'm just...
I feel really upset with myself.
Okay. Upset is probably not quite as descriptive a word, and I appreciate you saying that, but what is it that you are feeling towards yourself?
Aren't you frustrated? Yeah.
Because you want these feelings, you want to feel strong, right?
You want to feel powerful. You want to feel magnificent, like you're striding out of a fire, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
But you say you're getting upset with yourself, but what does that mean?
Upset is too neutral a word?
word.
I don't know what that means, really.
Like, just really...
Like, mad at myself.
Okay, that's good.
That's good. And so, mad at yourself for what?
What are you doing that makes you mad at yourself?
Like, I'm just not...
I don't...
No, like, I'm not trying.
Right, right.
So, I mean, that must be frustrating for you, right?
Yeah. And I'll tell you why I know that it's frustrating for me, for you, right?
Is that we've been talking for almost 50 minutes now, right?
And I'm already frustrated, and I'm not living in your skin, right?
So the amount of frustration that I'm feeling is like.00001% compared to the amount of frustration that you must be feeling, right?
Yeah. So tell me more about that frustration.
Um... I just feel like...
I've been over this stuff so many times.
And I should get it.
And you do get it in your head, right?
Yeah. Okay.
I'm going to ask you an odd question, right?
And we may have to spend a few minutes on it, but it will be helpful at times.
You may have heard me talk about secondary gains, right?
So secondary gains are things which don't appear to be obvious as a benefit to somebody.
But let's say that there's some woman who's married to some guy and she really doesn't like him.
But she's terrified of being alone.
So what she'll do is she'll nag him to be different than who he really is, right?
Because she can't leave him because she's codependent.
This has nothing to do with you.
This is just a metaphor, right? So she won't leave the guy because she's codependent and she can't stand to be alone, but she doesn't love him.
So what she does is she tries to change him and nag him and nag him and nag him, right?
And she will find it very hard to give up the nagging because underneath the nagging is an acceptance that the marriage doesn't work and she's terrified of being alone.
So if she stops nagging, she has to face...
The terror of being alone, right?
She has to face her codependency, so she nags, right?
And then she says, but I hate nagging.
I don't want to nag. I want to stop nagging.
Because she doesn't understand that if she stops nagging, there's something else that she has to face that's even worse for her than nagging.
Does that make sense?
Yeah. Okay, so...
There's a secondary gain that you are getting from being helpless...
And, you know, quote pitiful.
I don't think pitiful, but this is sort of how it comes across, right?
You get a gain out of that.
So if you stop doing that, or if you stop feeling that, it's going to cost you something.
You're using this attitude or this posture, and I'm not saying it's fake.
I know that you feel it genuinely.
But it's very likely that you're using that to avoid something else.
Okay. So, if you could snap your fingers and be strong and powerful now, what would that cost you?
There would be something in it that would be negative for you.
Right. And you know what that is.
I don't. But you do.
If you don't ever have access...
To, you know, the sniffling, the sadness, the crying, the helplessness, the dependency, the insecurity, like if you didn't have access to that anymore, if you weren't allowed to do it in some way, what would that be like for you?
What would that make you feel?
How would that be bad for you?
Um, I feel anxious.
Okay, so if you weren't allowed to be sort of sniffly and sad, you would feel anxious, and how so?
So what would you feel anxious about?
That I'd have to act?
That I'd have to act?
But you are acting. Do you mean act like give up the car and forget about the birth certificate and that kind of stuff?
Take the bus? Is that what you mean?
Right. Right.
You've read RTR, right?
Yeah. Okay.
You remember Simon the Boxer, right?
Yeah. I think that you're a little bit addicted to helplessness.
Because that was your world when you were a kid, right?
You were completely, totally and legitimately helpless, right?
And your family diminished your abilities and so on, right?
Right.
And so in the way that Simon the Boxer was addicted to managing violence, I think that you're addicted to managing helplessness.
Managing helplessness?
Yeah, to feeling helplessness.
Right. Because we started this off, and I have no problem with this.
This is the natural progress of these sorts of things, right?
But we started this saying, why do you feel helpless?
Well, because I have to get my car.
Well, no, you don't. Well, it's because I have to get my birth certificate.
Well, no, you don't. Well, it's because of this.
Well, that's not a valid. Oh, they pound on my door.
Well, you can get rid of them. And nothing changed your feelings, right?
Right. Which means that you don't feel what you feel as a result of what you're telling me, but for some other reason, right?
Yes. Because if you genuinely did feel helpless because you wanted your birth certificate, the moment I said, you don't need to get your birth certificate from your parents, you should have felt relief, right?
Right. But you didn't.
Right. So what that means is that Right.
Right. So what that means is that you have a feeling of helplessness that you justify with external causes, but it doesn't come from those external causes, right?
Which means that at the moment you are generating, and I'm not saying this consciously or anything, you're generating this helplessness, because this is a state that is familiar to you, and leaving this familiar state would cause you anxiety, right? Right.
If you were to never feel helpless again, I don't think you'd even know which foot to put in front of the other when you were walking, right?
Yeah. Because that's what you know, right?
Yeah. And so what it means is that you've gotten so used to feeling helpless...
That now you feel helpless when you don't feel helpless, right?
Right. Does this make any sense?
Yeah, it does. And how do you feel?
Um... Better, but a little nervous.
That's good, though. I mean, I can hear the change in your voice that you feel...
It feels like you feel less oppressed, less, well, helpless, right?
Right. Right.
Yeah. And that one of the things that you were doing, in my opinion, is that you were trying to, again, not consciously or anything, but you were trying to frustrate me so that I could express the frustration that you were feeling with yourself, south, right?
Yeah.
It's so weird because it totally makes sense.
It just, at the time, it was like I didn't even expect it.
Expect what? You did express that you were frustrated.
Right, right. It did come as a bit of a surprise to you, right?
Yeah. And it did make you feel more emotional, but now you feel a little calmer, right?
Right. Right.
Because I've expressed something you don't like.
I mean, look, you're addicted.
If this theory is true, whatever, right?
But you're addicted to feeling helpless because that's all you know in your family, right?
But there's a part of you that is so absolutely sick and tired of feeling helpless, right?
Yeah. Don't you hate it?
Yeah. Right?
You want to be an Amazon queen, right?
Yeah. You want to be like Xena, like Margaret Thatcher in a bikini.
Okay, maybe not that last one.
Right? But you want to be powerful, right?
Right. So you are addicted to the helplessness thing because that was your survival mechanism growing up and that's all that you were taught about yourself.
But there's a layer that's not really very far below the surface that is so ungodly sick of feeling helpless.
Right. That it seems to me that you're very close to giving it up.
Yeah. Right?
Because every time you feel helpless, this is why you're so afraid of going home, right?
Because every time you're in that helpless place, you're already home in your parents' place, right?
Yeah. Like you're not out.
Yeah. So you're not afraid of going there in the future.
You're afraid of being there in the present, mentally, right?
Yeah. Right.
Right. And that's the price that you pay for feeling helpless, right?
Yes. Which is you never get to get out of the abusive environment you grew up in, in your mind.
Yeah. Right.
So there are two components to this, right, which you can think about and work on.
The first is that the helplessness is not empirical.
And we know that because when we peeled away the empirical layers, you still felt helpless, right?
Right. So, the helplessness is not because of the things that you say it is, right?
That it's a state of being, it's a state of mind, it's internally generated, right?
Right. So, solving it through external means won't work, right?
Yeah. It's like my mom, right?
She always said, my nose is too big.
I have a Jewish nose.
And she did, right? My nose is too big.
So, boy, when I get a nose job, I'm going to feel beautiful, right?
Well, how beautiful do you think she felt after she had a nose job?
Not at all. No, not at all.
Then something else was wrong, right?
There's no external solution to the problem of insecurity.
You can't be cool enough, rich enough, good looking enough, whatever.
You have to solve it internally.
It's an internal state, right? So your helplessness is habitual and self-generated and horribly familiar, which is like weirdly comforting, Right?
Yeah.
So that's the first thing you have to recognize, that it's not an external cause that provokes your helplessness, but it is an internal premise, right?
That if I'm helpless, I'm safer, right?
Right. Which, of course, is your family, right?
Because any time you tried to act, they screwed you up, right?
Yeah. So this is like an armadillo curling itself into a ball.
It's just instinctual self-protective behavior, right?
Yeah. And so you need to challenge those thoughts which provoke the helplessness without reference to external causes.
The car, the birth certificate, it has nothing to do with it, right?
Yeah. And so once you get that it's an internally generated state, doesn't come from outside things, that's the first step.
That's the first step, right?
Yeah. Because then you can start to deal with...
And then the second step is you have to recognize what are the secondary gains for being helpless, right?
Now, I can't help you too much with that because being helpless works for women in a way that it just doesn't work for men, right?
I mean, it's just a totally sexist thing.
But, you know, if I'm sort of...
I don't know, if I let my parasol flutter to the ground and say, oh, Lord above, it's too hot in here, right?
Like, people don't rush to fan me, right?
Right. Right. It works for women in a way that it just doesn't work for men, right?
So I can't help you that much.
Men have all their own crap, right?
The macho stuff and all that, right?
Which doesn't work as well for women, but there's a certain thing that it works for you, right?
I mean, deep down, just between you and I, doesn't it get things done sometimes?
Like when you're helpless, doesn't other people do things for you?
Oh, yeah. Right, right.
And so there are some secondary gains in terms of practicalities, right?
Like... I call you right back, you know, kind of thing, right?
Because you're upset, right? So it works, right?
But it also works in terms of it helps you avoid the anxiety of power, right?
Of being powerful.
It's a safe and secure kind of familiar womb that you can crawl into.
Other people can take care of you and you feel not happy but at least familiar and secure, right?
Yeah. And until you get what that costs you...
If you don't think that heroin is bad for you, why would you ever quit, right?
Yeah. But it costs you, right?
Yes. Security, strength, self-respect.
You don't respect yourself when you do that, right?
No. Because if it wasn't a habit you already had, you wouldn't sit there and say, you know what I really need to become a complete human being is learned helplessness.
Right. Right. That wouldn't be something you'd pick out of the pile of habits to be learned, like good health or exercise or whatever, right?
Right. And so it's a temptation if you're aware of it and you know it doesn't come from anything outside of yourself, then you need to be aware of when you're going into this state and say, yeah, okay, it's familiar. I get it, right?
But being yelled at is familiar too, but I don't want that in my life anymore.
Right.
Do you feel better?
I sense that you do, but...
Yeah, I feel a lot better.
It's just, I mean, it's surprising.
Like, no one has even ever said that to me before.
Well, you're really good at it, I must tell you.
Like, no kidding. You're, like, serious, like...
False self, Oscar. False self, Oscar.
No, I mean this. I know I'm saying you're manipulative.
I'm just kidding, right? But you're really good at it.
Like, man, you're just totally realistic.
And that says a lot about what you suffered as a kid, right?
Right. But see, the thing is, too, like, it takes, I mean, not to toot my own horn, right, but You have to be willing to not feel like a total jerk for snapping at somebody who's crying, right? Yeah.
Because you're crying and you're sniffling and it's like, oh, the weight of the world and I can't and I'm like, hey, you're really bugging me, right?
That's not the easiest thing in the world to do, right?
Yeah. But I just have to assume that it's coming from a good place because, I mean, I don't want you to be unhappy, right?
but that doesn't mean that I don't have to take off a band-aid suddenly from time to time right right well this gives me a lot to to work on now
Good, good. Well, listen, I hope that it's helpful.
I mean, I want you to have all the power in the known universe, right, because you're a magnificent woman, and you should have all of that and this temptation of helplessness.
We all have it. You know, the guilty secret is that guys have it too.
We just don't talk about it too much.
But yeah, you should have all of that power.
But yeah, you definitely, I would say, do have a tendency towards that as a default position when you're stressed, and you can certainly work to undo that.
Okay. Thanks so much.
You're absolutely welcome. I will send you a copy of this.
Personally, I will pay you $500 to release this as a podcast, but I'm just kidding, right?
I'd like to, but have a listen to it first and let me know what you think.
I think you did mention your boyfriend's name once.
I don't know if that matters, but if you could...
Oh, I don't think he minds. Okay, so are you okay with me releasing this, or what's your preference?
Do you want to listen to it again? Oh, no, you can just go ahead and release it.
You are a queen. Thank you.
Thank you so much. And I appreciate your honesty throughout this.
I know it wasn't the easiest thing in the world, but I hope it's left you feeling a little out of the woods.
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