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Feb. 17, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:16:55

983 Sunday Call In Show Feb 17 2008

Material possessions, troll-fighting, loving more fully - and I talk to a woman who will not talk back...

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	Well, thank you everybody so much for joining.
	It is just after 4 o'clock on the 17th of February, 2008.
	And I just wanted to start off by talking a little bit about something that I was...
	It's an approach that I take when starting conversations, and I can see this stuff occurring in the chat window and also sort of third-party conversations that I hear about other conversations.
	But when it comes to investing your time, your finite, precious life-given time into conversations that occur with people, I think there's a certain kind of sales approach that can be very, very helpful. And I think what we need is a little bit more haughtiness.
	And let me sort of explain what I mean by that.
	Hopefully it will make some sense. And I'll sort of give you my experience of chatting with people.
	So I was in the Mark Stevens show over at We the People radio network last night, and there was a gentleman in the chat window who was a guest, and he was just talking a whole bunch of nonsense.
	You know, I don't agree with Steph.
	Well, what don't you agree?
	I don't know. I just like to think for myself.
	I reject things, and I call it thinking, all this kind of stuff, right?
	So... My thought, the way I sort of approach these kinds of things, and it might be of help to you, I think.
	I think it will be. The way that I approach these things is I view myself as Simon Cowell from American Idol.
	He's a somewhat acerbic British fellow, like me, except I'm not really at all acerbic or hairy or rich.
	But... I think I am a good judge of philosophical talent.
	At least I like to think so.
	So when somebody wants to engage me through email, on the board, on the chat, in whatever medium that I'm talking to somebody in the flesh, when somebody wants to engage with me in a conversation about politics or philosophy or ideas of any kind, Then what I do is I sort of picture myself as Simon Cowell.
	But I'm looking not for singing talent, but the ability to think.
	And this doesn't mean having perfectly formed thoughts.
	Lord knows that would be a criteria I would be highly unjust in inflicting on others.
	But it does mean having the capacity, having the instrument, having the capacity to think.
	So, basically, when somebody wants to engage me in a debate, I'm sitting there saying, well, I know I can judge a good singer when I hear it, so open your mouth, my friend, and sing.
	And if what comes out is, feelings!
	Nothing more than feelings!
	Which is actually...
	A bit of a preview for Podcast 1000, but we can come back to that later.
	Then I simply say, look, I don't know what you're doing here.
	I don't know what you're doing here, auditioning for a singing contest, but you really don't have an instrument which allows you to sing.
	So I think that something that you need to look at, or you need to sort of experience...
	If you're this far into the conversation, you know you can think.
	You know you can reason.
	You know how to think.
	You know how to distinguish truth from falsehood.
	You have, I think, a good level of understanding, particularly if you've read or listened to real-time relationships, The Logic of Love.
	You have a very strong understanding of your own internal processes, of your instincts.
	You are a fully actualized, at least in theory, human being.
	So you know talent when you hear it.
	So, you know talent when you hear it.
	And so, when somebody wants to engage with you in a conversation, then you need to sort of say, can you sing?
	Can you think? Can you reason?
	Do you have understanding?
	And do you have humility?
	Of course, humility is pretty much the prime requisite for...
	It's a necessary but not sufficient component of philosophy, right?
	To subject your will and your ideas to reason...
	And evidence. And so when you're debating with somebody or somebody wants to engage in a debate with you, you need to look at them critically.
	You need to look at them haughtily.
	And you need to say to them in your mind's eye, you need to say, how's the audition going?
	Are you competent or capable of discussing things in a rational manner?
	And if they're not competent or capable of discussing things in a rational manner, and you will know that very, very quickly...
	Then you just need to not engage with them, right?
	I mean, if somebody does come up and belts out some god-awful rendition of some song and thinks that they're a great singer, you don't sit there and say, hey, I'm going to invest months of my life in giving you singing lessons.
	That would not be a sensible response to listening to somebody come up with a terrible singing voice and want to think that they can win American Idol, because everybody's in it to win.
	It shows such a disconnect from reality that you couldn't even begin to explain the basics of...
	Reality, cause and effect, and so on.
	Like if you go to American Idol auditions and you've never listened to yourself sing, then you're mental, right?
	And then if you do happen to get in, it's purely accidental.
	So I would say we need to look at these reach-outs to us, so to speak, occasionally these reach-arounds, Which, look at them and say, well, can you think?
	And if you can't think, do you know that you can't think?
	So if somebody says, you know, I really want to be a singer, I know I can't sing right now, but I'd be really interested in taking lessons, that's great.
	But if somebody comes up and screeches like a cat being fed ass back through a blender and thinks that they're the best thing since Andreas Bocelli, then you don't even, I mean, there's nothing you can say to these people.
	And the last thing I'll sort of mention in this approach is that it's so important to remember that this is a multi-generational project that we are undertaking or embarking upon.
	And what that means is that we are not training people to be free.
	It's a very important thing to remember.
	We are not training people to be free.
	We are training people who are training the people who are going to train the people who are going to be free.
	We are not training anybody in philosophy who's going to live in a free society.
	What we are doing is training people who are going to train the people who are going to train the people who might one day be free.
	So we have to have a very high standard of who we're going to invest time, energy and resources into.
	Because if we don't, we're just going to squander all of our energies into fruitless, bitchy, frustrating, negative, hostile interactions.
	We have to be very, very, very judicious about who we invest our time and energy to.
	Because if you can make somebody into a great singer, when you take Sir Screechalot into your stable of people you're going to train to sing, you're excluding someone who might have this beautiful, supple, gorgeous voice.
	So all the time you spend trying to get a cat through a blender to hit a note correctly, accidentally maybe once, you're not investing in somebody who can really make a difference.
	So I think it's just very, very important to be a little haughty and to say, how's the audition to interacting with me going?
	So there was a guy on the board who came and basically said, you know, why do we have this exploitive, destructive economic system called marriage, right?
	Well, that's not a serious question.
	And he kept changing his story, and this is like, well, sorry, you failed the audition.
	Next! In your mind's eye, it's a stage.
	Who gets to be on that stage?
	Well, you've got to have that guy with the big...
	Sheep hook, ready to hook people off that stage at a moment's notice.
	Conserve your energies.
	Conserve your strength. Focus on those people who can really make a difference.
	Because we're looking for the next group of people who can take the conversation further.
	We're searching for the one.
	We're searching for that, I don't know, super rich kid with the golden voice, the massive connections, and who's 17, who's going to take it to the next level.
	We're looking for people to pass the torch to.
	And that means that we don't throw the torch down a well and hope it's going to somehow light the world.
	So I'm just suggesting, for your own happiness and sanity and for the effectiveness of what it is we're trying to do, just try to be as judicious as possible.
	And don't look at people who come in who are irrational, don't look at them as challenges to be overcome or people you have to turn towards the truth.
	Just shake your head and say, well, if you think you can think and you're going to start telling me all about reality...
	Then obviously you can't, not only can you not think, but you're not even within five interstellar dimensions worth of reality to begin with.
	And I don't have the time or energy, and you obviously don't want to learn.
	So I am not going to engage with you.
	I am going to wait and engage with people who are enjoyable and who make progress.
	And this is sort of related to what we were talking about with Rod.
	Last weekend, about the speed at which people get it.
	You can spend 20 minutes getting somebody 90% of the way there, or you can spend two years getting somebody 10% of the way there.
	And just be really judicious.
	For the sake of the future, for the sake of having a really satisfying effect on the world.
	Because at the end of your life, you don't want to look back and say, well...
	I sure had a lot of fights with people.
	I don't know that I changed that many people's minds, but I sure did have a frustrating time beating my head against a wall and not moving the conversation of philosophy and truth forward in any particular way.
	I don't want that to be your epitaph.
	That'd be very expensive to put on a tombstone.
	And so just look to the future.
	Look forward and conceptualize looking back in your life.
	If you say, well, you know, I played it smart.
	I conserved my resources.
	I only focused on investing in those where that investment really paid off.
	I didn't hand out my money randomly and hope to make a killing.
	I studied.
	I invested. I invested wisely.
	I withdrew investments from non-performing people.
	But hoard your resources and invest them only where the payoff is clear and the satisfaction is strong.
	And don't get drawn into fights with people.
	Who think they can sing and save your energies for the naturally talented.
	So that's my sort of intro thing.
	That's it for me, so feel free to give me a huge long pause now while you pretend to be shocked that I'm asking a question.
	No, I'm kidding! The mics are all yours, my friends.
	I just had one quick question about that interaction on the board.
	Uh-huh. So he comes in with that pseudo-question, loaded question, and somebody follows up with, I don't understand what you mean by oppressive or whatever it is he called marriage.
	And then you immediately responded with, well, Despite the title, it means he's not serious about the question.
	Yeah, it's not a serious question.
	It's like, have you stopped beating your wife yet?
	I mean, it's not a serious question.
	Right, right, right, right.
	So at that point, I figured you had pretty much checked out of that thread.
	But then you went back and engaged him anyway, and I'm wondering why.
	Well, I'm not sure that I engaged him.
	What I did was...
	I asked him for his definition of a few things.
	The reason that I went back in there...
	I mean, I knew that the guy wasn't going to be talking about anything sensible, but the reason that I went back in there was so that other people could see that more clearly.
	Okay. So...
	It wasn't...
	You don't suppose that it was pretty obvious from the initial post then?
	You mean like the thread on no property?
	Right. No, I don't think it's obvious to some people when there is not an open and curious and honest intellectual debate occurring.
	I don't think that it's very obvious to a lot of people.
	I mean, if you look at the stuff that went on in the There's No Property thing, if you look at the determinism stuff, it's...
	You know, it is hard for people to see it sometimes, so...
	I suppose...
	Okay, I was just curious about that.
	That was my only question.
	Sure, thanks. 24 people can be in the conference call.
	I did find another place which you can rent monthly which allows you to have up to 500 people in the conference call.
	That'd be 500 people who wouldn't know that they're supposed to have a question.
	Anyway, we can come back to that.
	So it's open to whoever has a question or comment next.
	Well, Seth, maybe I have a tremendous echo.
	I think it's better now.
	Okay. I must say that sometimes debating these people is not so frustrating, but I have some weird enjoyment about it.
	I don't know where that comes from.
	Do you have any idea? Sure.
	Sure. Well, tell me about your childhood.
	Yeah, what about my childhood?
	Alright. Well, did your parents say things that you felt were incorrect?
	Definitely, yes.
	And what was your response to that?
	Well, debate and a bit of passive aggression.
	And did your debate occur at the rational level, or was it more emotional and assertive, or as you say, passive-aggressive?
	Yeah, I think in the beginning it's more passive-aggressive, because I didn't really know how to have the rational debate.
	But later it's more based on arguments, yeah.
	So you're saying that when you were younger you didn't know how to have a rational debate?
	Well, it's difficult to formulate things.
	Well, I'm not sure that I agree with that.
	I've noticed children to be enormously rational, but the way that you can tell whether or not you knew how to have a rational debate was when you were younger and debating with your parents.
	Did you experience the debates as satisfying, emotionally as well as intellectually?
	Or was it frustrating?
	No. That was more frustrating, yes.
	Right, so you at least knew that it was a deviation from a productive standard, right?
	Yeah, but I think it was frustrating because you couldn't get out of it.
	But, yeah, here it feels more like some kind of wrestle match or something.
	Right, so, I don't know, have you read or listened to Real-Time Relationships at all?
	Yes. Okay, well, you know the story of Simon the Boxer, right?
	Yes. You might want to have a read of that section again, substituting frustrating debating for physical violence.
	Because you would have a habit of feeling that you had a sense of power and control by entering into these debates and trying to get the other person but never being successful in getting them, right?
	Mm-hmm. So that's why you would do it, right?
	Because it's a familiar situation.
	And are you still in contact with your family?
	It's diminishing.
	Okay. And have they changed at all since your introduction to philosophy?
	Have they accepted any sort of more rational or sensible premises or processes for debating?
	Not with my parents.
	With my sister, yeah, there's some progress.
	Right. Okay, so your parents are the same as they were when you were young, right?
	Yes. In this way, right?
	In terms of not having a sensible approach to debating?
	Mm-hmm. Right.
	And when was the last time that you got into a debate with one of your parents, or one of these pseudo-debates?
	Yeah, I got a letter last week.
	And you responded to that in a way that was familiar?
	I have not responded yet.
	That is not kind of enjoyable.
	Okay, but what was the last time you did get into a debate with one of your parents?
	Two months ago? You mean a verbal debate?
	Yes. Yeah.
	Two months ago, I think, yes.
	And the outcome was not satisfying, I would imagine?
	No. No, I mean, everybody gets tense, and then you kind of just have to abandon ship, right?
	Agree to disagree, blah, blah, blah, right?
	I never said that.
	Well, how did the debate end, then?
	How did the debate conclude? What was the end point?
	Yeah, it was an attempt to go to chitchat and to avoid the area of conflict.
	Sure, yeah. I mean, it's religious, right?
	Fundamentally, without reason. It's either domination of one person or the other through force of personality, force of arms, or power differential, or you just both have to drop the debate and agree to, in a sense, just either pretend that nothing happened, agree to disagree, which is kind of the same thing. But you have to drop it, right?
	Yeah. You can't play a game if you're playing chess and they're playing checkers on the same board.
	You just have to agree not to play, right?
	Yeah. Rationally, it's sensible.
	It's not going anywhere. Right.
	So overall, the premise that I would put forward would be something like this.
	that anything that we had a negative reaction or experience of when we were children is something that we must studiously avoid as adults, right?
	Because it would trigger that emotion.
	Okay.
	Well, yeah, for sure.
	And also because we know that we're going to be drawn to it to recreate a situation that we constantly strove to master as children, right?
	But, yeah, it makes kind of sense trying to train yourself in something you used to lose.
	Well, sure, but you have to put yourself in situations where you're not going to lose again, right?
	I'm not sure if I understand.
	Well, what I mean by that is to take a silly example.
	If you are a boxer...
	But you go into the ring with a guy who shoots at you, you're not going to win, right?
	No. Right, so if you want to gain confidence as a boxer, you have to stop getting into the ring with people who have guns, right?
	Yes. But you have to fight only with people who respect the rules of boxing where it's a fair and clean fight, right?
	Yeah. And so that means that you don't debate with people who don't have rational standards for truth and falsehood.
	Because they're the people with a gun you can never win, right?
	Because there's only personal dominance in that environment.
	But the reason you feel like trying is that you feel like this time I can win or something.
	Well, but you can't, right?
	You can't win in a debate with people who don't have objective and rational standards, right?
	It's like trying to practice science with a theologian.
	Yes, but the strange thing is that I myself also got convinced slowly, and sometimes it doesn't go so fast.
	How long have you known your parents for?
	My parents, that is kind of a lost cause.
	Well, but that's all I'm saying, right?
	Yeah? Okay.
	All I'm saying is that if somebody's not rational, you can't teach them to be rational.
	You can't. It's just not possible.
	Sorry, and what I mean by that, if they're not rational, and they don't know that they're not rational...
	Then what you're basically doing is saying to a guy who's capable of running a marathon, I need to give you open heart surgery.
	He's going to say, open heart surgery?
	I just had a chest x-ray.
	I'm as fit as a horse. I've never had any problems.
	My cholesterol is normal.
	I feel perfectly healthy.
	My doctor has given me a complete certification of health.
	You're just going to look crazy to him, right?
	Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree on that.
	But yeah, if you have a debate with a troll, then you don't know them for 40 years.
	Well, I don't think you need 40 years myself.
	I don't think you need 40 years.
	I think that you can get this usually within the first few exchanges, whether they're verbal or written.
	And you'll know this not based on reason in terms of abstract rationality, But you'll know this because you'll either feel enthusiastic about talking to the person, or you will feel kind of frustrated and negative about talking to the person.
	And I'm just saying, you know, trust your instincts on that.
	That is a strange thing that I still feel like engaging and not really frustrated, I would say.
	I do kind of enjoy putting a new answer in.
	Sorry, what do you mean by putting a new answer in?
	Just continuing the thread and yeah.
	And what is the pleasure that you feel out of that?
	Can you describe it? Like, what is the pleasure that you feel?
	Yeah, every time I put in a message, I think, this one puts it down really well.
	It'll make a difference. It's naive, maybe, but yeah.
	No, I don't think it's naive.
	I actually think it's sort of darker than that myself, but I could be wrong, right?
	So, when you're debating with somebody who's irrational, and you post something in a thread...
	What is the feeling?
	Is it that you're going to get them, that this is going to shut them up, or this is going to win, or they're going to finally say, you're right, you've been right all along?
	What is the feeling that is behind that?
	Yeah, that is a bit the feeling, that you're able to bend someone a little bit in the right direction.
	Well, that's not really a feeling.
	Can you tell me what the feeling is?
	Hope? No, I can guarantee you that you're far too intelligent a human being to experience hope in debating with people who are irrational.
	So what is the feeling? What are my choices?
	Well, I mean, just tell the truth, right?
	So when you see somebody's posted something in a thread, and they have misconstrued or misunderstood, and this has been going on for a while, and you have an urgency, right?
	Like, you want to get on the board, and you want to post something in response, right?
	Yeah. Well, what is the feeling that motivates that?
	Hmm. Ah, yeah, Greg is helpful.
	It's sarcasm often.
	Okay, sarcasm is, again, sorry to be annoying, but sarcasm is not an emotion.
	So what is the emotion that's behind, like that urgency, that I want to, I got to post, I got to get him.
	Like, what is the feeling behind that?
	Revenge? Yeah, think of emotions rather than thoughts.
	You know, mad, sad, glad, angry, frightened.
	Not frightened. No, I don't think frightened.
	Not sad either.
	Sorry, I don't think it's sad.
	I don't think it's frightened. Sometimes this is just a process of elimination.
	Yeah, I'm trying to.
	But I won't say it's mad either.
	Well, mad doesn't mean crazy, right?
	right?
	It just means it can be frustrated, it can be angry, like these kinds of things.
	I wouldn't think of frustrated, but… Well, we don't have to answer this right now, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but what I would say is that this is a very important emotion for you to understand.
	And the fact that you don't know what you feel when you engage in this repetitive and unsatisfying behavior is very, very important.
	The fact that you don't know what you feel when you pursue this action, which you, say, have a real strong urge to do, the fact that you don't know the feeling that precedes the action is very important, and we don't have to figure it out right now, but I think that it is very important for you to figure that out, and that's very easy to do.
	You can just scan the board and look for something that really makes you want to post and say, whoa, wait, before I post...
	What am I feeling? And what are the thoughts that precedes that feeling?
	What is the goal of what it is that I'm trying to do?
	What am I intending to achieve?
	Have I ever achieved what I want in the past by doing what I'm about to do now?
	So it's just a matter of stopping and examining.
	This is how we break out of habits.
	You stop and examine.
	What are my feelings? What are the thoughts that produce it?
	What is the goal of doing what I'm about to do?
	And have I ever achieved what I want by doing this before?
	And it's just becoming mindful.
	It's decelerating what may be a defensive response or an aggressive response.
	It's decelerating that, breaking it into its component parts, because it's only when we understand that that we can really begin to make choices.
	I think what happens also is that when I see a response then I think that I can't let this person get away with this.
	I have to respond to this one and then you get a chain effect.
	Right, right. And then, and I certainly agree with you, I think that's a very astute observation.
	But then you have to ask yourself, if you want to, you know, live consciously, you can ask yourself, okay, I really want to get this person, or I can't let them get away with this, I can't let them post this without me responding to it.
	And I think that's a very common, I appreciate you going through this, I think this is a very common feeling for people.
	But then you have to say to yourself...
	Is this about the truth or is this about me?
	Is this about my anxiety avoidance or passive-aggressive vengeance or aggressive vengeance or whatever?
	Is this me acting out my past in a non-productive way or is this me actually contributing to the advancement of truth to whatever degree I can?
	Because I think we only feel honorable when we engage in debates with people that are honest and above board and productive.
	And they can be animated.
	They can even be emotional.
	But if we are recreating our childhood experiences when we're getting involved with difficult people and stretching it out, then I don't think we feel particularly proud or honorable about that.
	Because we're clouding, I think, the natural and often quite simple truths of philosophy with a lot of back and forth and so on.
	And so the challenge, I would say, it's, you know, whatever you like, but my suggestion would be to say, and this is how we know whether it's about us or about philosophy.
	It's a very simple test.
	What does it cost me not to post?
	What does it cost me not to post?
	So when somebody's being difficult or changing their story or redefining terms and being kind of slithery, of course, like everybody, this is behavior that's designed to hook you in.
	This is a person who doesn't have anything positive to offer in terms, not you, people on the board or whatever in your life.
	They don't have anything positive to offer.
	It's negative economics.
	All they do is they can offer you some immediate relief from anxiety.
	So, just if you can...
	Well, in your case, you don't even know the feelings, but I'll just sort of say, what happens to me emotionally if I don't post?
	Or if I post tomorrow?
	And if what happens is you feel anxiety or you feel anger or you feel something negative, then I think it's not particularly knowable to post.
	Because you shouldn't post and you shouldn't use my resources or anything.
	You shouldn't do that to avoid your own anxiety.
	That's not philosophy, right?
	That's a kind of weird self-management.
	And we all do it. I'm trying to pick you out, right?
	But... But I think that's really important to understand.
	How do I feel if I don't post?
	And if you're like, well, yeah, I can post tomorrow, whatever, right?
	Then that's fine, right? Or if you say, well, you know, I can post, I can not post.
	Or, you know, if I don't post, I'll feel sad because this is a really enjoyable debate.
	But if you say, well, if I don't post, I'll just be mad.
	I'll be steaming. I'll be frustrated.
	I'll be, right? Then that's not...
	I don't think that's a good reason, if that makes sense.
	Okay. I'll have to mull it over there a little bit.
	Well, thanks. And again, I do appreciate you bringing this up.
	I think that this is something that people are...
	I mean, I'm prey to it. Everybody's prey to it, right?
	But don't engage with people who are manipulative is a very, very foundational aspect of life, right?
	Don't... Don't get involved.
	You know these foreign entanglements that Washington spoke of?
	Don't engage with people who are not being honest.
	Don't engage with people who are being manipulative.
	Don't engage with irrational people.
	And you'll know whether they're irrational or not based on your feelings.
	They will tell you all that you need to know.
	But I would say that if you're posting to avoid a negative feeling, that's a bad reason.
	And that's just going to have you waste a huge amount of time, yourself and other people, right?
	Because other people got to read the stuff.
	And if you're acting out of frustration and you're not conscious of it, what you're going to do is you're going to increase the frustration in everyone else, which is going to cause more people to pile on the thread.
	And it becomes a free-for-all time waster.
	Do you think I'm doing that?
	Well, I don't know, because I haven't identified the threads that you've had, but the key thing to do is to just look at your emotional experience.
	Why is it that I want to post, and what are the emotional consequences of not posting?
	Okay, that's clear.
	Well, thank you, and that was a great topic.
	I really do appreciate you bringing that up.
	Alright, well, thank you very much, and let us know how it goes.
	If you can't figure out this stuff, be sure to post it in a highly aggressive way.
	No, I'm kidding. That would be great.
	And if you don't mind, I can move on to the next caller.
	Alright. Alright, thank you very much.
	Next! Hey, Steph, it's me.
	Me? Me, yes.
	It is James. How are you doing?
	Not too bad. How are you? My heart is pounding.
	I have quite a lot of fodder over this past week, I think, at least for me.
	I don't know exactly what I want to talk about, though, so maybe that's the call-in show.
	It's not exactly... I don't have a topic prepared.
	And I'm so sorry. The server is working beautifully.
	I'd like you to hold that thought, but I do believe that it has stopped recording at my end.
	And I know that Greg's recording, but let me just call everyone back in literally 30 seconds.
	But it looks like my recorder has stopped, or at least it's not counting up as it's supposed to, which will mean that the sound quality will be poorer.
	So give me just a second.
	I will call you back in literally 10 seconds or so.
	All right? Sure. Hi, sorry about that.
	We're back. We're fine.
	In fact, it was recording, but you can never tell.
	Okay, James, are you there?
	Yes, I am. Sorry, please go ahead.
	Well, the interruption actually allowed the adrenaline to go down a little bit.
	Excellent. Boo! Sorry, go on.
	Hey, hey. Should we wait a few minutes or a few seconds to reconnect people here?
	Is that just going to distract me?
	Sure. Okay, go ahead.
	Okay, so I had a lot going on last week, as you know.
	Yes. With the funeral of my mother's fiancé and with the thing between you and me with the recording and the conversations I've had with a number of people.
	Now, sorry, just before you go on, I can certainly sense that your feelings are strong, which of course is nothing wrong with that.
	I'm sure that's very healthy, but do you want to talk about what you're feeling before we go to the content?
	Sure. I feel an awful lot of anxiety.
	Right, right, right.
	Right, and the thought that's perceiving that anxiety is it, what's the thought that comes before the anxiety?
	You know, I don't know what the thought is.
	Yeah.
	Well, we can run through a few just to see if any of these make any sense.
	Is it that you think that I would get angry at you?
	You know, I don't think that's it.
	It's possible. I don't think that's it.
	Is it that you feel that you are breaking some sort of confidence by talking about this in a public arena?
	No, that doesn't quite resonate either.
	Okay. Is it that you are concerned that your mother may hear this?
	No. Are you concerned about the reactions of anybody else in this conversation, either now or the live crew here, or anybody who'd listen to this in the future?
	That might be pretty close to it, yeah.
	That's a lot closer.
	Okay, so it's more the community's perception of you in the future that you're concerned about?
	In the future and possibly immediate future as well.
	So like in this call, right?
	Sure, yeah, in this call.
	And what is the story or the fear?
	Is it that people are just going to call you names?
	Even in this call, are they going to break radio silence and all pile on you in a massive horde of verbal abuse?
	What is the worst case sort of negative scenario?
	That I'm going to be drummed out.
	That I'm going to be told that I've got to go.
	That you have to go from the conversation as a whole?
	Like, that's it? You're off the island?
	Yeah, that's what it is.
	Okay, and how do you see that unrolling?
	Like, how do you see that occurring?
	I mean, let's say that you're totally right.
	We're not going to talk again, and it's all over, right?
	But how do you see that sort of unrolling?
	Well, I was talking...
	With Greg. If he doesn't mind, I didn't even ask him.
	I'm sorry about that. He's got a mic.
	He can tell us if he doesn't want you to talk about it.
	He can shut me down, right?
	Just kidding. Wait 20 seconds between each point, though, just in case he's in a pause.
	Sometimes he's rebooting... He has a lot of upgrades.
	Sorry, go on. Right, right, right.
	Oh, boy. Alright, so...
	How do I see that whole thing...
	Drumming out, or...
	Well, sorry to interrupt, but it can't be because you'd be talking about your mom, right?
	Like, it would only arise because you were talking about your interaction with me or Greg, is that right?
	Um... Yeah.
	Sort of. Um...
	No, I don't even know if that's quite it.
	Because... Well, I don't...
	You know, it's...
	I'm sorry.
	I just...
	Right now, I don't know.
	Somewhere I know, but it's not coming to my mind.
	Okay, well, would you rather talk about the issue with your mom's boyfriend, or would you rather talk about the issue that you and I had about the recording?
	And I know that rather is a subjective term there, you'd probably rather talk about neither, but of course there's something that's impelling you to do so, which I think is a good idea.
	Sure, sure. Well, I guess we can just go for the easy one, and if it's okay, go for the harder one, at least in my view, the death of my mother's fiancée.
	I'm not sure if there's anything actually to talk about there.
	I mean, it's kind of done.
	And when you contemplate talking about that subject, James, do you feel anxiety or not?
	No. I said that first, but it was anxiety building up to the other subjects I was mentioning.
	Okay. So, do you want me to kick off the conversation about the recording and you and I? Sure, and I have a feeling that something about my girlfriend will also come up.
	Well, and I'm perfect.
	I don't consider the issue that occurred between...
	I don't, and this doesn't mean it's not, but just my perspective is...
	I don't consider that what occurred between you and I with regards to the recording, and just for those who don't know, I had to...
	For two weeks in a row, we lost kind of crucial slices of the recording because there was a problem with my recording, and Greg forgot to record, and then it turned out that Greg's recording was bad, and I had sent an email to James saying, you didn't happen to record Sunday's show, And then he said he felt really bad because he I think he you felt that you should have or were going to or something like that.
	And then I said, yeah, it's kind of frustrating for me because I don't make backup recordings if I think other people are making backup recordings and blah, blah, blah.
	But I don't consider that to be a huge deal.
	It was just a little bit of extra work.
	Well, half a day of extra work to put it together.
	But I don't consider that to be a huge deal between the two of us.
	But I'm certainly happy to talk about it if it is for you.
	But if you'd like to talk about your girlfriend or if that's more pressing, which I would imagine it is, but of course that's for you to let me know.
	It's your choice about where you want to go.
	Um... Yeah, well...
	You know, I don't know...
	I mean, it's...
	Yeah, I mean, getting down to the...
	I keep thinking steak and potatoes, and that's totally not the expression.
	Getting down to the root of it...
	Yeah, I think talking about my relationship with my girlfriend is something that we can discuss because it's ever-present and a big part of my life.
	And look, I know that this is, I have purposefully not brought it up with you because I know that it is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very difficult part of your life.
	And by that, I don't mean that your girlfriend is very, very, very, very difficult.
	I just know that this relationship is a very, very hard place for you to go to, right?
	So I've been fully conscious of the fact that I BCF-bombed you a couple of weeks ago, and that we haven't talked about it since, although it has come up about six months ago.
	So, I mean, I hugely respect the difficulty and the action that you're taking in bringing this challenging topic up.
	So, for what it's worth, you know, kudos.
	Thanks. Sure.
	So, where do we go?
	I hate to be an annoying repetitive guy, I just want to know where people's knowledge is.
	You've listened to RTR, is that right?
	You know, I've listened to part one, and I haven't been able, gotten around, whatever you want to use it, to get to the remainder of the book.
	Well, you don't want to hear the remainder of the book, right?
	Oh, probably not, I guess.
	No, seriously, I mean, if you're having relationship issues, then a book on relationships from a philosopher that you respect who has a great relationship would be both a blessing and a curse, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yes, that's the case.
	Right, okay, so that's no problem.
	I just wanted to know where you are in terms of that so I could know what to refer to or what not to refer to.
	So, I'm perfectly happy to ask leading questions, or I'm perfectly happy to listen like a sponge, whatever your preference is, is fine with me.
	Bear with me just a moment, please.
	Okay.
	Let me think.
	Hold on.
	Just hold on one second.
	I'm very sorry.
	Sure, no problem at all. Feelings.
	There's nothing more than feelings.
	I would like Beth to hear your side of the conversation, but she's not in right now.
	Could you dollar her in?
	Oh, sure. Oh, it's Snagglefrog.
	But it's spelled P-H-R-O-G. Sorry, that's a little security thing we have here.
	2 G's, GG at the end.
	Okay, so we're all set with that?
	I believe she's in.
	Okay. She's in. And is she mic-less, or she doesn't want to speak, or is it mostly because I'm...
	I'm always happy to have...
	We have both of us in the same room.
	She's actually hearing an echo of me.
	But if we had two mics, then there would be an echo for me speaking for you, too.
	If she wants to contribute, then I can just hand over the mic.
	Okay. Okay.
	I think that at this point, you can just ask some questions and see where we go.
	Well, if you don't mind, I'd rather ask her questions than you, because I know a little bit about your side, but if she doesn't want to, that's totally fine with me, too.
	Beth? She says she's really shy.
	Okay, that's no problem. Does she have a hand puppet I could talk to?
	You can use a sock if you want with M&Ms for the eyes.
	Does she have an invisible friend I could mind melt with?
	No, that's fine. Okay, I can ask you questions if she doesn't want to talk, that's fine too.
	Yeah, okay. Okay, so...
	There was a time in the past, six months ago, where you were having some enjoyment challenges in the relationship.
	That's right James, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, certainly, yeah, that's true.
	Right, and look, that's another condemnation of the relationship.
	We have that, Christina and I have that when I don't get my cappuccino within three to four seconds of me waking up, and I have to use the air horn.
	That is, so we all have these satisfaction deficiencies.
	Christina is not going to get the microphone at the moment.
	Ow! Biting! Ow!
	Just kidding. Yeah, deficiencies, this occurs, right?
	And that's actually a very good thing.
	Because it indicates where you can grow in the relationship.
	Now, would you say, and this is a somewhat subjective thing, but overall, would you say that your level of satisfaction has increased or decreased relative to six months ago?
	I would say it's definitely increased.
	Okay, so when you look at, and again, I'm sorry to put you on the spot, but this is just all subjective nonsense, but when you look at a 100% great relationship, where would you say that you were at six months ago?
	Well, are we on a scale of zero to 100, or...?
	Yeah, 0 to 100 is...
	And you can use decimals, that's fine, if you want to get totally, because I know you're a computer programmer, so you'll need some, three decimals, let's limit it to.
	You're killing me, Steph.
	I don't know how to put that.
	I guess...
	Well, now, sorry, let me just interrupt you for a second.
	I guarantee you that you know how to put that.
	The question is, do you want to say it or don't you?
	There you go. You don't have to be honest with me.
	I think you should be honest with your girlfriend and she should be honest with you.
	And we don't have to do this now.
	But the question is, do you not know or do you not want to say?
	And I won't accept the first answer.
	Sure, sure. I know that well enough for now.
	Or at this point. You know, I would say that it must be around 30-40% in that range.
	I think that's probably, I mean, that seems reasonable to me.
	and where do you feel that it is now?
	Hmm.
	I think it's gotten to like...
	It's gotten to somewhere like...
	I don't know, 60-ish?
	65? Okay.
	What's the 40% that's missing for Beth?
	Oh. She can't answer this because she had her chance.
	She could have had the mic. But this is because we always think about what's missing for us in a relationship, right?
	And that's natural, right?
	But if we assume that Beth is around 60%, which is reasonable because you can't generally be happier than your partner is in a relationship, then what is the 40% that is missing for her?
	You mean in terms of – oh, man.
	Shhh.
	And I also guarantee you that you know this too.
	Whether it's reasonable for us, right?
	It could be that, geez, I wish you'd never heard this goddamn FDR thing and put me in all these impossibly difficult situations with this goddamn philosophy.
	And by the way, I'd also like a million dollars.
	It could be anything, right?
	But what's missing for her in the relationship?
	And again, is it because you don't know or you don't want to answer?
	No.
	I'm drawing a blank, but...
	Does she want to talk now?
	She's shaking her head no.
	No, okay. Can she write it down?
	And now, if she's actually carving it with a knife in your forearm, you might not be quite at 60%.
	No, I think that would be a little bit of a...
	An issue. Right, okay.
	Well, look, I mean, the first thing that needs to occur, in my opinion, this is, you know, me, humble guy just throwing out some opinions from the frozen tundra, but you need to figure out what 100% relationship is for you guys, right?
	What is 100% relationship look like?
	What happens? How does the day go?
	How do you interact? What do you do on the weekends?
	What is your long-term goals?
	Medium, like what do you do in 10 years?
	What do you do in 5 years? What is a 100% relationship for you?
	Because if for you a 100% relationship is opening up the relationship to hookers and blow and hers maybe not so much, then you're going to be working at cross-purposes to some degree, right?
	Just a bit, yeah. If you have like 100% relationship is complete and total honesty, and she says, well, 100% relationship is getting along with people even if it's not easy, then you're going to be working at cross-purposes, right?
	So you have to look at the core values that are driving your goals, right?
	Yeah. And we've done a little of this, but no, certainly not to the extent that you're talking about here.
	Not at all. And that's, you know, there's a reason you haven't done that, right?
	I'm sure. What that is, is again...
	Well, look, the challenge is that you got into a relationship, and there's nothing wrong with it, it's just an observation, that you got into a relationship prior to consciously evaluating your values, right?
	Yes, yes. It's like, I took a job before I know what I wanted to do with my life.
	Well, what are the odds, once you figure out exactly what you want to do with your life, that that's going to be the perfect job for you?
	That's the fear that we all have in relationships post-philosophy, right?
	It's like, well, if we sit down and explicate our values to each other, right, and say, I don't know, or let's mull it over, or God knows, or, you know, but you can have fun doing it, that you're going to be staring at each other across a grand canyon of opposite values.
	And that doesn't mean good or evil, it's just different, right?
	Sure, sure. But I would say that if you don't know what 100% is, anywhere you – I mean, if you don't know where you're going, anywhere you end up is accidental, right?
	Yeah. No, you're right.
	There's actually an interesting conversation she and I had earlier today.
	In which I was talking about kind of what I want to do is get in the car and drive.
	Just drive anywhere and no real destination.
	And maybe that's kind of a metaphor for what we're doing right now.
	Well, the reason you would want to do that, though, is not because you're adventurous, but because looking at the map is going to cost you something.
	Whether it will in reality or not, we don't know.
	But you fear it's going to cost you something.
	Yeah. No, it actually is interesting because, Beth said, you know, you want to have an adventure.
	It's like, no, it's not because I want to have an adventure.
	No, and I think you hit it on the head.
	Looking at the map is going to be kind of scary.
	Yeah. Right. No, I mean, because the explication of values, I think it was her second day, Christina said to me, look, I want somebody with a stable income, who's not hysterical, who's the strong but silent type, so I want both strength and silence, hair model.
	There was lots and lots of things.
	At least you got that one down. She also said, I want somebody who comes from a stable family, who's close to his family.
	And who has a good relationship with his siblings in particular, and who's not going to screw me over by pretending to be an executive and then turn into some weird internet guru.
	So, I'm not saying that explicating your values gets you them, as we can see from that example.
	In fact, it can lead you in quite the opposite direction, but it usually is an important process.
	Oh, personal hygiene.
	I remember she emphasized that quite considerably.
	Again, sorry, honey.
	Or, you know, when we first got down to it and she said, man, it is cold when we first got down to it and she said, man, it is That's not... That's not its normal.
	Anyway, sorry, go on. Oh boy.
	To come out, right? I'm sorry.
	Well, it's shy. I'm glad I didn't hear that one.
	I'm getting a lot of audio dithering on this side.
	Put a couple of kibbles out front.
	Can you hear me okay? It's like getting a moray eel out of a hole.
	Sorry, go on. I was just wondering if you can hear me okay, because...
	Sorry, just kind of said the chat.
	Craig, naughty. I'm cutting out.
	Blame Time Warner. So, I mean, in your humble suggestion, Seth, What, I mean, maybe finish up the RTR book?
	I mean, are there other resources?
	I mean, obviously we have to talk to each other.
	I mean, I don't want to... Yeah, the RTR book is a good place to start, but look, she's got to be on board with the philosophy thing.
	Or you've got to get off the philosophy thing, which I don't think is possible.
	And this is sort of a, dare I say it, a bald truth.
	It's that if you believe that it is virtuous and valuable and noble and whatever to do the philosophy thing, which I believe it is the case too, then she can't fight you on that.
	And this is just something you guys need to talk about.
	And... Because you can never talk someone out of what they consider to be a virtue.
	You can never ever talk somebody out of what they consider to be a virtue.
	That's why everybody spends so much time trying to redefine what virtue is, because that gets control over the other person.
	I'm not saying this is true in your relationship, but if you believe that philosophy is a value and a virtue, which I believe it is too...
	And I think there's very strong arguments, if not certain arguments after UPB and RTR to establish that, then she's not going to be able to fight you on that.
	She's either got to get on board, and that doesn't mean she has to become a philosopher, but she has to respect your drive for truth and honor of virtue and so on.
	She has to. Because if she doesn't, then she's going to be setting herself against your highest and greatest value.
	That's never going to work.
	Now, in the same way, if she has a value, and again, because she's not talking, I'm just going to make it up, right?
	But if she has a value, which goes something like this, philosophy is a nice hobby, but I don't get and see why it has to invade every single aspect of our life.
	I don't know why it's got to cause all of our personal relationships to be put to this mad test and blow up in our faces, and I don't know why we have to be these holy warriors for truth or whatever.
	So I think that it's much better or nicer, or you could say more virtuous and noble, to work to get along with people, to bring people along slowly, to accept some imperfection in our relationship so that we can work to improve themselves and ourselves.
	If she's got that...
	Then you're not going to be able to talk her out of that if she believes that that is a noble and virtuous and positive approach to things.
	So when I talk about value explication, we're really talking about what is the good.
	And we don't have to be a philosopher to have a theory of what the good is, because everybody has that theory one way or another.
	So if the philosophy stuff has had some positive effect on your relationship, which of course I hope it has, then it's going to have some positive effect, but then there's going to be a drop-off, right?
	So in terms of your personal relationship, philosophy is going to have a very strong positive effect.
	However, if philosophy is universalized and then starts to go outside of your relationship, then it's going to cause a lot of anxiety and challenge for her, right, if she's not on board.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Thank you.
	Like, what do you mean you're not going to your step-fiancé's funeral thing, right?
	No, actually, she, um, she, well, what was, what happened exactly?
	It was, um, that kind of made you feel a little anxious, me not going, right?
	Yeah, she's saying yes.
	Yeah, we don't know. I don't trust you.
	Sorry, go on. You don't trust me?
	Oh, man. Yeah.
	Oh, knife to the heart, Steph?
	Look, she could be inflatable for all I know.
	I've never talked to her. Oh, man.
	Honey, say, say. I'm sorry, go on.
	Say the following. Oh, God.
	And take that look of perpetual surprise off your face.
	Sorry, go on. Well, she's turning red.
	Good job. Excellent.
	And she thought this was some sort of noble conversation, right?
	I've just blown the whole thing for her, right?
	I'm so sorry. Let's get back to our definition, shall we?
	I think that she actually appreciates this quite a bit.
	Well, we try to have fun while changing the world, I guess.
	That's the idea, right? Yeah, and while so-called screwing up our own lives, at least from the perspective of outside of philosophy.
	Free Domain Radio, go down with giggles.
	But sorry, go on. Yes, yes.
	Well, now you've got it choking.
	It's great. Why would you set me up with a joke like that after the inflatable thing?
	Why? Why? Are you trying to get my rating pulled?
	Sorry, go on. What rating?
	What rating? Right.
	Sorry, let me rewind and go for that joke then.
	Sorry, go on. Ah, yes.
	So, the funeral thing.
	I guess that's just one example, though, right?
	Because... Well, sorry, just because I think I know where the challenge may be, right?
	So it's one thing for her to say, I think it's a good idea for you not to go to the funeral.
	That's one thing, right? However, it's quite another thing for her to say, I think that we should not have destructive or corrupt relationships in our lives as a principle, right?
	Agreeing with an instance is one thing.
	Agreeing in principle is quite another, right?
	Sure, sure. It's like saying that this one particular charity is helping us, but we need to point guns at people in order to feed the poor.
	Yeah, or like saying, well, I don't like subsidies to the farm industry, but we should keep the subsidies to the oil industry, right?
	Yeah, okay, yeah, that also works, yeah.
	So is she in agreement with principal?
	And it's just a question.
	It doesn't matter, right? But is she in agreement with principals that also apply to herself?
	or is she more in agreement with, yes, it seems like I can understand why you wouldn't want to go to this guy's funeral.
	See, the good thing is this is not an otter shake the head question.
	So it's going to be challenging.
	Yeah.
	There should be a string on her back.
	Try pulling the string. I hate math!
	Sorry? That's gonna deflate her.
	Right, right.
	Okay, don't do that.
	That, um...
	She's seen me sort of go through a lot of my relationships.
	But that doesn't mean for her, right?
	Yes. See, she's hoping that she's going to be able to stand in front of this tsunami called philosophy, and it's just going to go right around her, right?
	Are you shaking your head?
	You're nodding your head?
	She's grabbing a sofa.
	What are you trying to say?
	She said she has to think about it. - Right.
	Well, look, I mean, and this is the important thing, right?
	Because you approach this, and this is a bit of a male-female divide to put on a sexist hat for a moment, but this is not a better or worse thing, but men tend to approach things in terms of principles, and women tend to approach things in terms of an emotional understanding of instances, in general, I mean, in a ridiculously generalized way.
	And so Christina, when we met, and she said, so this stable family that's on my checklist, how do you rate?
	And I actually bit her hand and ate the checklist.
	When she asked that, she sort of said, well, yeah, it makes sense that you would not spend time with your family because of X, Y, and Z. But she didn't get the principal thing, and that's partly because I hadn't worked out the whole principal thing yet.
	But then when it came to her family, it was like, well, no, this is different, right?
	This is apples and oranges, right?
	Or rather, Greek people and crazy people.
	I was going to say, that sounds quite familiar.
	She totally understands why I don't want to have anything to do with my family.
	But we've been talking...
	Well, maybe I've been doing most of the talking...
	But about her experience with her father, and I've done some listening, you know, and how that sort of plays out with some of the things that, you know, other things that we've talked about, you know, in other situations.
	Right, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but I can, and I'm sure this will resonate, but let me know if it doesn't.
	So, Christina would say to me, your family caused you pain, so I can understand why you wouldn't want to see them.
	But my family doesn't cause me pain, so the standard doesn't apply.
	That's not exactly how it works with us.
	Oh, sorry, go ahead then. Um...
	It's more like...
	Excuse me.
	Hold on a second. Pardon me.
	I couldn't hit the mute button in time.
	The... It's more like I've noticed that, well, I mean, I don't know how much I've told you about her particular family situation.
	There's an awful lot of pain that goes on there.
	In particular with her father, she ends up with some pretty negative feelings after talking with him, sometimes at least.
	Like depression and the general feeling of blah, as she puts it.
	And so we were talking about that, but...
	But that's not the same as pain, right?
	Like depression is not quite the same as pain.
	Because depression is a feeling of emptiness or a feeling of lethargy or a feeling of negativity, but it's pretty generalized, right?
	It's not like when somebody's yelling at you directly, you've got your heart pounding, your fight or flight, but depression is a little different, right?
	Depression is just kind of like I'm emptied out, right?
	Yeah, I guess I was considering my own experience of being depressed because it was very painful.
	Sorry, but your experience with your mom is that she actively scares the multicolored crap out of you, right?
	Yeah, a bit.
	A bit? Very much so.
	Do you want to read back some of your posts about your mom's email?
	No. Necessary.
	I apologize.
	What are you doing with your microphone?
	Are you clenching it in your ass?
	You can get a mic stand, you know, because that can get tiring.
	I know. Oh dear, I'm afraid he's gone.
	He's just about to solve it all.
	Alright, well, you can work on your technical issues and we'll come back to you later if you can, but if somebody else would like to take up the bandwagon, that would be excellent.
	Perhaps we can mute him just for now while he's doing his thing.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I guess we'll just have to leave it for now.
	Thank you.
	If he keeps making noise, we'll drop him off.
	But sorry, if somebody else has a question or a comment or issue, feel free to jump in.
	It's also generally not a great idea to use an anaconda as a microphone stand.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, can you drop him? Just kick him off.
	Yeah, he'll have to come back in if he's still making noise.
	Okay, sorry if somebody else had questions or comments or issues.
	That'd be great. The other thing,
	too, is that you might want to check the girlfriend model ID number because it could be that your microphone is getting interference from the remote control girlfriend broadcaster.
	Can you get him back?
	You can always have a list of topics you could...
	Talk about while we wait for the crickets during the crickets.
	No, I don't want to go on big rants while I'm waiting for questions because I get those all week.
	Somebody's going to come up with something once they realize that it's a place where they can ask questions.
	You can always think of a comedy routine.
	I have a question.
	Is that Nate? No, this is JC. Oh, sorry about that.
	Go ahead. Yeah, I know you see tattoos and piercings and things as a sign of low self-esteem.
	What do you make of people who buy lots and lots of stuff?
	I mean, how should we think about our material possessions in terms of our life, I guess?
	Well, I mean, it's a very good question.
	There's two poles, right?
	So the one is that you don't buy lots and lots of stuff, and then the other is that you buy lots and lots of stuff, and all of it is free-domain radio books or audio books or specifically T-shirts, hats, and that, of course, is a mark of incredibly high self-esteem, particularly if you're only wearing the hat and you go outside anyway.
	That... It's the mark of an extraordinarily high level of self-esteem, and that's the kind of advertising we want.
	Unless it's cold, in which case, again, it's not such a good, if you're a guy.
	Awesome. Yeah, well, I mean, we need...
	Just a little bit of context, why I ask the question is because I need to get rid of most of my stuff in the next couple months.
	And I'm feeling a little weird about it.
	Why do you need to get rid of your stuff?
	Because I need to move into a much smaller place.
	Ah, okay. Well, I don't have any particularly strong answers.
	For sure, we don't want to define ourselves by our material objects, right?
	The material objects are non-reciprocal, so you don't want to just, you know, have a relationship with your laptop and so on, right?
	So we don't want to be defined by our material objects.
	But at the same time, I mean, as a pragmatic and materialist philosopher, I certainly have no problem...
	With, you know, buying shiny toys and having a nice place and so on.
	So I think that there is an interesting etymological...
	The word possession, I think, is very interesting because it means both things that you own and also the demonic inhabitation by an evil spirit.
	And I certainly am rather shocked to the degree to which people are willing to sacrifice personal relationships for the sake of material objects.
	And I'll give you a quick example.
	When Christina and I were first going out, she lent me her vacuum cleaner.
	Because me doing everything with the dust buster in a shop in Hale wasn't working as well as we'd hoped.
	But she lent me her vacuum cleaner, which she'd had for a long, long time and was very expensive and so on.
	Because all of the things she ends up owning tend to be very expensive and often high maintenance.
	But anyway, we can come back to that another time.
	But... I was going to drive it back to her and I took it downstairs and I had to grab something from around the corner and I came back and somebody had walked off with her vacuum cleaner, which was expensive and treasured and so on.
	And we'd only been going out like a month or two, right?
	Not even? Three months?
	Three months, right. Okay.
	And I was obviously upset that somebody had stolen the vacuum cleaner or maybe they thought it was just there because somebody was tossing it out.
	But, you know, she was wonderful about it.
	She's like, you know, no problem.
	We'll put up a little poster or whatever.
	But, you know, we were enjoying each other's company.
	And so a couple hundred dollar vacuum cleaner did not stand in the way of us remaining close and sort of happy with each other.
	I'm constantly amazed the degree to which people will let material accidents or so on.
	You know, like if... I don't know, if your boyfriend or your girlfriend, husband or wife puts a ding in the car, it's going to cost you a couple of hundred bucks to get fixed.
	It's amazing to me the degree to which people will just throw their partner under the bus in terms of holding it over them or getting mad or whatever, right?
	And I just think that kind of prioritization just doesn't make any sense to me at all, right?
	Like, I mean, if you love somebody and you respect them and you admire them, then a couple of hundred bucks, a couple of thousand dollars here or there, you know...
	I just, I can't understand that kind of stuff.
	And that used to, I mean, that's part of what I grew up with, right?
	Like, I mean, if I, I don't know, like, if I took a flashlight out and I lost it or it broke, like, I'd be terrified, right?
	Because it's like, I'd get really badly punished for it, right?
	And that, to me, just never made any sense, you know, like that your kid would feel scared because of a $5 flashlight, you know, like it just, that kind of stuff didn't make any sense.
	So I really don't like the degree to which people use material accidents or material objects.
	To hold it over other people and to punish them because that's so degrading to the other person.
	To be less than a material object is so dehumanizing.
	So I don't like the way it works out in relationships, but, you know, whatever floats your boat individually I think is great.
	All right.
	I either answered the question or he dosed off.
	No, no, you answered the question, yeah.
	No, I think it was a really good answer.
	Oh, wow. Excellent. Thank you.
	Hey, sooner or later. Okay, did anybody else have other questions or comments or issues?
	Well, I can always add to that.
	I think Alice Miller talks about the bourgeois something.
	I can't remember what she called it, but it's like people that manage their sadness or anxiety by going out and buying lots of stuff.
	Sorry to interrupt, but just for sure, finances in a relationship can be an enormously volatile topic, and it's something that would be a very good show for Christina and I to do at some point.
	Control over finances is control over power, and going into debt is passive aggression towards the other person, and secretive buying, and so on.
	That kind of stuff. And a lot of people get addicted to this, what is sometimes called, in an all-too-lighthearted vein, retail therapy.
	Like, I'm sad, so I'm going to go buy something.
	And that is enormously destructive, and that just digs your hole without a bottom.
	But I'm so sorry to interrupt.
	Please go ahead. Right.
	Well, that's kind of what I tend to do when I get sad is I buy stuff.
	And I want to go out and get things, like new toys.
	And what is the alternative?
	If you don't do that, what happens?
	I mean, first of all, if you can afford it, so what, right?
	I mean, more power to you.
	Well, what happens is I have these long-term goals that depend on a certain amount of savings and stuff like that that I'm sacrificing at the expense of this short-term gain of relief from sadness.
	So I want to move somewhere, and that's going to take a lot of...
	A lot of savings and investment and certain things to get out of this house and traveling around to find a cool place that I would want to live in and stuff like that.
	So that's going to take some money to explore and figure out.
	But what happens if you're feeling down and you want to go and buy something?
	What happens if you don't do it?
	What feeling are you avoiding if you don't?
	Bye. Boredom.
	It's not just boredom.
	It's boredom combined with the sadness.
	It's having to sit in it.
	Right, so if you get a new electronic toy or video game or something, then you learn it and you become better at it or whatever.
	Right, I feel...
	Yeah, it's like getting a puzzle or something and feeling effectual because you're You're busy putting together, but a puzzle is inexpensive and, you know, I don't really like puzzles.
	And how are you sitting with your own thoughts kind of thing?
	Better than...
	Sorry, you've taken a lot of props away recently, right?
	I mean, the blunts, the...
	Rhymes with...
	No, I shouldn't say. The ladies, but you have...
	I mean, you've taken away a lot of props in that sense, right?
	Yeah, the blunts, the serial dating, the serial relationships, the...
	Oh boy. And even lately, now that it's come to my attention, the buying stuff, and I don't know.
	God, I had a bunch of other stuff that I was doing.
	Well, and where did you learn that from?
	What were your parents' habits in terms of purchasing?
	Well, I would...
	I would say they didn't buy the things that I wanted, but they certainly bought the things that they wanted.
	And was your mother or your father the biggest shopper?
	Um... I think it was my dad who bought a lot of toys.
	And why did he buy toys?
	Um... To feel better.
	And in fact, a lot of those toys were stupid investments into these new snake oil things.
	Just stupid things.
	Did he buy things that would keep him in the garage or in the basement?
	No, but things that would keep him in the bedroom doing whatever it was he did.
	Away from your mom, right?
	Right. Yeah, I mean, people will often use objects as a means of distancing themselves from others, right?
	Right. And in my case, it's kind of to occupy myself in this sort of isolation.
	I'm in this sort of a...
	It's an occupation, kind of.
	I want a stereo for my car, you know, but I also want to move.
	But one is easier to get than the other.
	Well, but you're because...
	Sorry, in my opinion, you are comparing the wrong two things.
	You know, again, just my humble, stupid opinion.
	Because what you're doing is you're saying, well, I can get a stereo for my car or I can move up my plans to move, right?
	But that's not a very...
	I don't think that's a very real comparator.
	Why? Well, if you say to yourself, I can go and buy a stereo for my car, or I can become more lovable, that would be a different situation, right? A different balance, right?
	I don't see how those two relate.
	Well, I'll Spin something out and you can see if it makes any sense.
	You had a habit of using external objects from drugs to women to avoid the anxiety that you felt when you were alone, right?
	Exactly. So anything which exacerbates this habit of using external objects to avoid the anxiety of being alone is going to make you less lovable, right?
	Because if a woman senses that you're with her because you don't want to be alone, then no woman of any self-esteem is going to be flattered by that, right?
	Definitely not. Right.
	So the degree to which you can break your habit of relying on external things to distract you from a certain emptiness that you feel within yourself, and the more that you can condition and train and sort of simmer into yourself satisfaction with your own being in the present without having to have distractions and so on, then the more lovable you're going to be and the more a woman is going to feel that you want her rather than that you need her.
	Oh. So I just like...
	How do I know when I'm buying something for...
	Because I just want it, you know?
	As opposed to need it.
	Like, the same object.
	Like, car cereals, for instance.
	Well, you do it when...
	When you look at the feelings, what happens when I don't do it?
	What happens if I don't do it?
	My particular habit of buying things, and Christina will vouch for this with no small amount of facial tics, is that I have to be at death's door in terms of need before I'll buy something.
	So I could literally have a computer that is trying to bite my head off, a notebook that's developed teeth and an appetite, and I'll be like, no, no, I can tame it.
	I don't I'll find a way, right?
	I'll feed it gerbils and hopefully it won't bite my hands off, right?
	Yeah, for me it's just the opposite for me.
	Right, so I know that when Christina is literally, like when I'm in the trunk being driven to Best Buy, and she's like, if I have to hear any more problems with this hardware, I'm going to, you know...
	It's just like, if you don't buy a notebook for you, I'm going to buy a notebook for you, right?
	And that's, of course, just terrifying, right?
	It's just terrifying. Yeah, it would be like me doing her laundry and everything coming out about to fit a Malibu Barbie size.
	But so, you know, it's like, well, what's the opposite?
	I can go too far that way, right?
	Because I'm so used to hoarding, right?
	So I can go too far that way.
	And Christina can sort of help me to open up my dusty wallet a little bit more.
	But it's what happens if I don't do it?
	Well, I feel relief if I don't buy something, right?
	Because, like, yeah, I don't have to spend money.
	But if you're like, well, if I don't do it, I'm going to feel really bored and irritated and depressed, then don't do it.
	And what do I do instead?
	Just feel bored, irritated, and depressed?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Absolutely. And then, using your knowledge of the RTR, Christina's fabulous presentation from Miami, you look at the thoughts that are originating all of that, right?
	Yeah, I have that video, by the way.
	I can watch that again. Yes, you can.
	So, yeah, so what you do is you figure out what are the thoughts that are preceding it, what are the thoughts that are making you feel worthless and empty and depressed and valueless and whatever, whatever, right?
	And you look at those thoughts and you challenge those thoughts.
	You don't feed the demon of distraction.
	You challenge the demon of distraction.
	The demon of distraction.
	Yeah, it's quite a demon.
	Yeah, there's a great book.
	It's horribly Christian, but it's really good, called The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, the guy who wrote the Narnia nonsense.
	Yeah, I've heard of that.
	It's an interesting book if you ever get a chance to read it.
	There's some really good stuff in it, but one of the things he says, he says, you know, the devils of this world don't distract you or don't turn you from the path of virtue with great sins.
	They don't say... We're going to distract you from the path of virtue by filling you with a mad desire to strangle every Japanese schoolgirl in the city, right?
	Because then you go like, oh, that's pretty bad, right?
	So I'm not going to do that. They said that the real demons of this world distract you with irritability and discontentedness and fretfulness and worry and fears that are not...
	and concern about the future and just...
	they distract you with little things, right?
	That the devils of this world turn you away from virtue by making you cranky.
	Not by filling you with great evils.
	But by disarming you with littleness and pettiness and fussing and my shoelace broke and this kind of stuff that goes through all of our minds.
	But it's this temptation of the tiny.
	Temptation of littleness.
	Right? And so it's like, well, what is it that you want your life to stand for?
	Well, do you want it to stand for I had a good stereo in my car?
	No! You want your life to stand for I had a great and passionate love.
	And I made a huge difference.
	And see, we keep having to, right, lift ourselves up.
	Because we're all raised and so small, right, and petty.
	Classrooms are filled with petty horizontal attacks from other kids, you know, but looking different or whatever, right, so...
	Learning to love the large, which is what this conversation is all about, learning to love the large again is really hard, right?
	And so distracting yourself with little things as opposed to preparing yourself for big, great, wonderful things, that I think is the real balance, right?
	Should I move or should I get as car stereo?
	Well, who cares? It doesn't matter, right?
	But if I can learn to be content in my own company, then I can have a great and beautiful love.
	That's worth more than car stereo, right?
	Way more, yeah.
	Right. Yeah, okay, that really helps.
	It's what I was saying to Charlotte a couple of weeks ago, right?
	Like, what are you going to cross town for, right?
	For just some guy who's got a job, you know?
	Like, no, in terms of what she wanted in a guy, right?
	Hey, he's got four fingers and a thumb.
	At least on one hand, I'm good to go, right?
	I mean, no, you want a hero, right?
	You want your life to be big and heroic and juicy and terrifying and exciting.
	I mean, we want to be big. We want to live large.
	And you can have that.
	I mean, you have to be content with your own company because otherwise you'll be prone to self-attack and thus you'll be susceptible to manipulation and all the stuff that we've talked about before.
	But... Yeah, as Christina said, if you don't like your own company, how can you expect somebody else to like your company?
	Like, if you have to distract yourself, you're going to end up having to distract others, right?
	Which means that you're not going to attract a woman who's content with her own company, which means you're not going to end up liking her, right?
	Oh, right. She just becomes another object to...
	Yeah, this is...
	Everything seems like such a paradox lately.
	Yeah. What's paradoxical?
	Well, it's like it's a loop.
	A self-reinforcing loop.
	Well, I'm not sure how that's paradoxical, though.
	What was it before?
	I can't remember.
	No, there's a part of you that wants to call it a paradox, right?
	But I don't know that that's a good part of you.
	Like, I don't know that that's a really healthy part of you.
	It isn't? Well, no, because, I mean, if it's a paradox, then it's false, right?
	Right. Right.
	So, it's not...
	You know how I was saying, like, you...
	I think you said this in a thread to somebody else.
	You are insecure because you need them, or is it that you need them because you're insecure?
	This seems kind of like a paradox to me, but it's not, right?
	Well, no. It's like any habit that you have where the original stimuli is no longer present, then you're doing it to yourself, right?
	Because you were constantly attacked, you could never feel relaxed.
	This is the Simon the Boxer thing again.
	But because you were consistently attacked as a child, you could never feel relaxed.
	And so it was bad for you to be content with your own company.
	It was dangerous.
	It's like going out onto a battlefield without a helmet.
	But that stimuli is long gone.
	Right? Nobody sits there and attacks you anymore, right?
	For sitting around doing nothing.
	Right. Now you can totally sit around.
	You're legal and 21 and over 21 and you can quit your job tomorrow and you can sit in your own feces if you want.
	Sorry, I'm just looking at my to-do list for next week.
	But you can, right? You can do anything that you want, right?
	Right. Stew in your own filth!
	Sorry, that's a week after. So if you're feeling discontent, then you're doing it to yourself.
	Clearly, no one's doing it to you, right?
	Right. Right.
	Anymore. So I can be like that Charlie Brown character that has the dirt all over.
	He always seems happy and content with the dirt.
	Hey, we all had our role models.
	But no, you can do whatever you want, right?
	So when I was a kid, my brother would grab my hand like all asshole older brothers would.
	He'd grab my hand and because he was so much bigger and stronger, he'd grab it and he'd say, he'd hit me with my own hand saying, stop hitting yourself, right?
	Yeah, mine too. Right, so if I'm still doing that at 40, then I'm doing it to myself, right?
	Right. Which is an infinitely more manageable situation, right?
	Right. So the two, the key here is recognizing the two, the things, what is of more value, the car stereo or the infinitely better relationship or the healthier, happier feelings. You don't want the car stereo, right?
	And I guarantee you this, you don't want the car stereo because the car stereo is a continuation of the pattern that was set by your parents, which is distraction from the self, right?
	Right. Right.
	So, it's your parents who want you to have the car stereo.
	Because they're the ones who taught you to distract yourself from yourself.
	Why did they do that?
	Well, because if you were comfortable with yourself, then you would have figured out how evil and abusive they were, and you would have gone to the cops.
	Right. Right.
	So they always got to keep you off balance.
	They always got to keep you discontented and self-attacking, right?
	So that you're not worth defending.
	You're not worth saving.
	Oh, wow.
	So every time you avoid the peace and serenity of being content with your own company, you're obeying the orders of your parents.
	That's...
	Well now I can't buy any more car stereos.
	That's good. I think you really got the principle there.
	It really is about car stereos.
	That's all it comes to. And the reason I'm going through all of this is the FDR car stereo, which plays nothing but podcasts at volume 50, is coming out.
	In fact, even if you turn your car off, it still keeps playing it.
	It actually can't be turned off in any way, shape, or form.
	And it comes with an atomic battery that will last at least 23 generations.
	Until Libertopia. Great.
	Hey, that's a great idea.
	Yeah, absolutely. Just bury those in various areas just in case you know.
	And your parents don't want you to be loved, right?
	Right. Right, your parents don't want you to be loved.
	They don't want you to have a great and secure and wonderful relationship because when you have that, their evil is that much more exposed, right?
	Isolation is the key to abuse, right?
	So every time you do something that renders you less lovable, less capable of having a great relationship, you're just obeying your parents, right?
	Oh boy... Yeah, that's it.
	Right, everything that you do that renders you a fertile ground for love's beauty to sow is directly counter to the corruption of your parents and your teachers and your priests and all this stuff, right?
	Right. I actually ended up sitting with my feelings last night because I really wanted to go do something.
	I ended up writing about it because I just didn't know what to do.
	But that's good.
	I mean, I know that it's not easy, right?
	And the only reason you do it is because you want to have a great love, right?
	Right. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
	It'd be amazing. I'm telling you, cappuccinos.
	Oh, so that's what it's about.
	Absolutely. Caffeine delivery is really the foundational aspect of a great passion.
	I mean, when I say to Christina, after the 45th cappuccino of the morning, you set my heart aflutter, I'm not kidding.
	It's only the 45th one, though.
	Only the 45th.
	Before that, it's all neutral. Alright, I think you gave me another key to unlock some door somewhere.
	Actually, it's already unlocked.
	Sorry, if you don't buy the car stereo and you don't find the great love, at least you'll have enough money to buy a girlfriend like James.
	Right? One of those inflatable ones. So, it's win-win.
	That's what I'm trying to say. Right.
	Yeah, I need to find out where to get me one of those.
	Oh, I think you know. Okay, well, that's something to mull over.
	Thank you. That was an excellent, excellent topic.
	I'm certainly happy to take another question from other listeners, so please speak up.
	Yes, Steph, I got a question, a job question.
	And I'd like Neutronoid to join in because Neutronoid, he's on the call and he said a month ago that he had lost his job and he was having a real problem with it.
	I've got 12 more working days left on my contract, and for strange reason, I can't really feel any anxiety about it.
	I mean, the guys that I work with in my office are going nuts, worrying about their future and everything, and I just don't feel like that, but I don't know why I'm not feeling like that.
	Right, right. Okay, well, does Neutrinoid want to join in?
	Does he have a microphone? Does he...
	Okay, well, he can join in if he wants, of course.
	So you've got 12 days left, is that right?
	And then you're going to be cast out into the wilds of the job seekers?
	Yeah, and prospects aren't that good in my area for my specialty, and it looks like if I want to keep my specialty, I'll have to move.
	But that's really not bothering me either.
	Okay, and why would it bother you?
	Well, it seems like it bothers everybody else.
	Right, right.
	So I feel like I should be bothered about it.
	You mean because like the way that lots of other people believe in government?
	Well... Oh wait, what about the God thing?
	Do you feel like maybe we should be heading in that direction?
	Because like a lot of people believe in God, right?
	Yeah, I see where you're going on that.
	No, no, wait. Let me give another few examples.
	I'm just kidding. Let me really pound this hamster into the ground.
	Well, I'm just ready to let it happen to me.
	I'm not really opposed to getting a new job, but I haven't even got to the point where I've put out my resume on CareerBuilder or Monster.com or other places.
	And why do you think you haven't done that?
	I'm not saying you should have, I'm just curious why you think you haven't.
	Well, I think there may be some kind...
	There's two things. There's like some small glimmer of hope that some new contract may occur.
	But I'm actually...
	The bigger feeling is that I'm actually glad that this job I've had for seven years is going away.
	It's a government contracting job.
	I don't like the people there.
	I don't like the situation.
	I don't like keeping my mouth shut all day and not talking about things that I want to talk about.
	Right. No, I can imagine.
	That must be tough. I want to see how a new job would be any better.
	Well, but you don't know, right?
	You don't know what it is that you're going to be doing next, right?
	So your next new thing could be you self-employed, right?
	Could be what? Could be that you're self-employed.
	Yeah, last time I was self-employed, I... Oh, you know, that just sort of rung a bell with me.
	I've had some recurring dreams where I'm just like, work to death, work to exhaustion, and the last time I was self-employed, it was like that.
	But were you happy or unhappy relative to your last job or this job?
	Oh no, I wasn't really happy being self-employed.
	It was like every minute of every day there was something I needed to be doing for the business.
	Yeah, no, I know that feeling.
	The FDR thing has kind of broken the levy as far as some of my time management has gone, but that's fine.
	But you could do, perhaps, a better job, now that you're older and wiser and more mature, you could do a better job, probably, of managing your time.
	So that you didn't end up being a complete slave to yourself, right?
	They say, you know, they say, oh, be your own boss.
	It's like, but as my own boss, I'm an asshole of a boss.
	I'm a workaholic, right?
	So I have to sort of manage that myself and make sure that I still work on the pleasure principle, but it may not be the same given that it was, you know, probably close to a decade that you were last self-employed.
	You're a different human being now, and you probably have more of a sense of self-worth because there's a lot of desperation in self-employment, right, if you don't quite believe that you've got a lot of value to offer.
	Then it's easy to be exploited, but that may be different for you now, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, and I don't really feel like there's any kind of impending doom because of only 12 working days being left in this contract.
	I mean... Well, I mean, obviously you're not going to starve to death on day 13, right?
	I mean, you have some children you can rent out or whatever, right?
	So you have some – I mean, you're not going to starve to death.
	So I think personally my feeling is that downtime is quite important for transition points in life.
	And that's my story when Christina catches me napping in the afternoon, that I'm planning, meditating.
	Anyway, it's desperate but true.
	But no, downtime is important.
	So what this means is that what you want to do next is not what you're doing now, but you don't know exactly what it's going to be.
	And I think self-trust in that area is so, so important, right?
	We have such a feeling, or I used to have this feeling when I was younger, you've got to will everything, you've got to make stuff happen.
	If I don't do it, it's not...
	But it's not true. We dance with ourselves, right?
	Sometimes we lead and sometimes our unconscious or its desires unfold the future for us and then sometimes we take the helmet.
	I mean, it's a dance with ourselves in terms of, I think, most productively navigating through life.
	It's not about willpower and it's not just surrendering to the inevitable, inshallah, whatever, right?
	So I think in this situation what's happening is that you are developing a sense of self-trust which says, I don't know exactly what I'm going to do next, but I know that what I do next is going to be the right thing.
	You know, I had a...
	Sorry, unless you've just joined the bad image and I'm not sure that...
	What you want to do is really get important to have downtime resonating.
	I think that might be close to what I'm thinking.
	Right, right. I mean, you don't want to feel anxiety about a lack of anxiety, right?
	Because then the only flavor you have is anxiety, right?
	I'm either anxious or I'm worrying about not being anxious, right?
	Hold on, my 13-year-old is giving me grief.
	No, you're not doing that.
	Why not? Because we don't know his address.
	Write down his address and his phone number right now.
	Sorry. Oh, no problem.
	No problem. I thought you were talking to me.
	We're going to change the topic. Anyway, no, no, we're not doing that.
	But, no, I think it's okay.
	I think it's okay. I mean, you are a very responsible human being, so you don't have to worry about suddenly becoming some Joe Hippie irresponsible dude, so you don't have to sweat about that.
	You know you're going to do right by your family.
	You know you're going to do right by your life, but you probably do feel quite relieved that this is being pulled out from under you so that you can find someplace something better to do.
	I think it's perfectly sensible and I would relax into your future, particularly when you get older.
	I've talked about this before, but there's this Jungian pyramid thing.
	So when you're young, you've got to will everything.
	And then when you get older, you have to accept the results of the choices that you've made.
	Not many people say, I'm going to go be a doctor when they're 50.
	But it's okay to accept some momentum later on in life.
	I mean, I certainly hope that I'm not going to have to reinvent myself for the 15th time and that I can do FDR until they throw dirt in my face, but it's okay to accept some momentum and to not have to will your way through everything when you're sort of around middle age and thereafter.
	Uh-huh. Does that help?
	I mean, I know we didn't have a big question or anything, but does that help in terms of a way of looking at it?
	Yeah, I think better relax into your future, huh?
	Yeah, honestly, it's… Is that a stephism?
	I think it is.
	I mean, it's certainly what I've tried to work with, right?
	Because we don't tend to daydream or have desires in the presence of stress, right?
	One of the things that depression… Depression and stress are highly related because stress scrubs out our inner life and our daydreaming and the fertility of our own creativity.
	So… So I would say relax into your creativity, relax into the fertility of your future for sure.
	Relaxation and self-trust has an enormous amount to do with allowing us to meet our future with a full sense of our own potential, I think is very important.
	But if we're pushing ourselves and stressing, and I've got to find another job, then we don't actually know what we want.
	We're just doing what we have to, right?
	And then our whole life becomes have to, and the pleasure goes down, and it's no good.
	Yeah, I cleared out all my debts last year.
	So, I mean, all I have to do is make a house payment.
	So, that's about it.
	No, that's good. And certainly, I mean, I didn't do FDR. We paid off our cars.
	We made sure that we took out a line of credit on our house in case we needed to.
	So you can be responsible and prepare, but once you're ready, then yeah, relax and take a couple of weeks, take a month, figure out what you want to do.
	Otherwise, you'll end up doing something prematurely and you'll end up not succeeding at it and have to change again.
	So it's no good. Yeah, that's the idea that I've been thinking about is, you know, it's only 12 working days to go and I'm still thinking that it's premature to get going on anything.
	Yeah, and you know, this is part of RTR with yourself, right?
	Instead of saying, well, I have to get my resume out and I have to do this, and it's like, I don't know why I'm not feeling stressed or anxious about this, and I don't know why, but I'm curious as to why.
	And maybe it's entirely right that I shouldn't.
	And maybe not feeling stress is going to make a lot of sense.
	I mean, before I did FDR, before I wrote any articles, before, before, before...
	I would while away the time having debates with nobody in my car, right?
	I mean, and I didn't know why I was doing that.
	I thought, well, geez, maybe I'll do speeches later in my life or whatever, right?
	And that helps a lot in terms of developing my ideas and speaking and so on.
	It wasn't being recorded or anything like that.
	Why was I doing that? I don't know, but it turned out to be incredibly useful, right?
	So it's okay to have that, you know, just let things play out and assume that the right thing is going to happen.
	Okay, thank you very much.
	Well, best of luck, and keep us posted about how it goes.
	This is a fascinating experiment, and I've certainly done it myself a number of times, and it's worked out really, really well.
	Cool. Okay, thanks very much.
	All right, do we have other comments, questions, issues, problems?
	Hey, Steph. Hello?
	Can you still hear me? I sure can.
	Can you hear me well? All right.
	I think this mic is on its last legs.
	Right. I kind of wanted to just go back to the last thing we were talking about.
	I mean, unfortunately, I don't really remember what it was.
	I'm thinking a dumb, weirdly sexual joke.
	That's usually a safe bet.
	And then you were going to say something, and I was probably going to interrupt you with another dumb joke.
	So we could just continue that for a while, if you like.
	Hmm. How do we skip all that?
	Get to something useful, right?
	Okay. Oh, that's alright.
	I can't really, like I said, I can't really think of it, but...
	Well, sorry, we were talking about, if I remember rightly, and I'm sorry to interrupt you again, but we were talking about the fact that you experienced highly negative stimuli from your parents, and that your girlfriend does not experience the same highly concentrated negative stimuli.
	And I don't mean this with you all the time, and you said, well, I wasn't that scared of my mom, and then I threatened to read some of your board posts, and you said, okay, maybe a little...
	And we were talking about that different experience, that if she's not going on principle, right?
	Like, the principle in RTR and the principle that I've always talked about is this, that faking stuff doesn't work, right?
	Faking stuff doesn't work.
	And, you know, attempting to falsify reality is a very bad idea.
	It only benefits bad people at the cost of the happiness of good people.
	And it's really bad, right?
	Pretending you don't have cancer does not get rid of your cancer.
	And pretending you have a relationship when you don't have a relationship corrupts everything that you do, right?
	So if Beth is more around, well, if I feel really bad, then I'll maybe stop.
	If I feel as bad as you did with your mom, then maybe I'll stop seeing my dad, right?
	But that's not really the same as making a decision, right?
	Because the whole point of philosophy is prevention, not cure.
	So you don't say, well, when one of my lungs collapses, I'll go and see a doctor.
	The whole point of philosophy is supposed to be about nutrition.
	It's like, stop smoking.
	Don't wait until you get cancer and go see a lung doctor.
	So, if Beth is not visible to her father as an individual and can be honest and open and vulnerable and reveal herself and feels treasured and doesn't mean always agreed with or whatever, right? But if she can't be open and honest with her father, I'll just say pick on her dad.
	Then she doesn't have a relationship with him, and she can pretend to have a relationship with him to avoid the anxiety of attempting to fix that relationship or get rid of it.
	That's all I talk about, right?
	I don't say, cut off your relationship with your parents.
	I'm saying, hey, if you have a relationship with your parents, then you should be able to be honest with them.
	Right? About what you think and what you feel, right?
	And so, if you have a relationship, then you should be honest.
	Which is, to me, is no more radical than somebody saying, I have a job.
	It's like, oh, then you should be getting a paycheck, right?
	Well, no, I don't get a paycheck.
	Then it's not a job. Then it's a volunteer thing or whatever.
	It's not a job. Right?
	And so, if somebody says, I have a relationship with X, it's like, oh, then you should be able to be honest with them, right?
	And tell them what you think and feel and listen to them and, you know, whatever, right?
	It shouldn't be this weird, manipulative, whatever, whatever, right?
	And if you say, I have a relationship with someone, then it should be a positive thing.
	You shouldn't walk out of there feeling depressed or alienated or, you know, you shouldn't roll your eyes about thinking about going to see that person or whatever.
	Right? This is the radical stance that we take in this conversation.
	If it's a relationship, it should be positive, and you should be able to tell the truth.
	And if you can't tell the truth in your relationship, then it's not a relationship.
	And the effect of that on everything else that you experience, your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your boyfriend, your relationship with your co-workers, your relationship with your siblings, your relationship with everyone, is going to be totally messed up by the fact that you're faking a relationship.
	A core relationship with your family, pretending to have a relationship where you don't.
	So if she understands the approach to relationships that not just...
	I mean, not just here.
	Everybody says you should be honest in relationships.
	I mean, I just did a podcast conversation with the RTR folks, which is well worth listening, where I just go into a big spiel about how what we do here is not weird at all, right?
	It's not weird. Everybody would agree that if you have a relationship with somebody, you should be able to be honest with them about what you think and feel, right?
	And so if she says, well, my relationship with my parents doesn't cause me as much pain or negative stimuli as your relationship with your mom, so I'm going to keep on with it, then that's not a philosophical approach.
	But if she says, it's not a relationship if I can't be honest, so I either need to be honest and turn it into a real relationship or get rid of it, then that's the philosophical approach.
	And then it's not really that dependent on how she's feeling in the moment, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I follow you.
	Sure. Alright.
	And she's not at that point, right?
	No, I don't think so.
	Oh, you'd know. You'd know.
	You'd know because then she would be sitting down to have the talk, right?
	With her dad. Yeah.
	And say, you know, for years, dad, I haven't felt that close.
	I feel scared. I feel there's a lot of obligation in our relationship.
	I feel anxious. I'm not saying it's your fault, but this is my experience, and I didn't like this that happened when we were a kid, and I'd like our relationship to go in this direction, and I feel terrified even bringing up anything honest and vulnerable.
	She'd be sitting down to having the talk, right?
	And you wouldn't miss that or the preparation for that, right?
	No, no, I wouldn't miss that one bit.
	Right, so she's in a holding pattern, right?
	Like, we get to live forever, and all of our mistakes can be reversed, right?
	Like, I'll struggle through another Sunday brunch with my dad, right?
	And then I'll just deal with the fallout, right?
	Yeah, I guess that's...
	Yeah, I think you're right.
	You guess I'm right, you think I'm right.
	Tell me if I'm wrong. I mean, obviously I don't want to say things that are false, right?
	But I feel like I'm sort of launching things into a bit of a fog here, if that makes sense.
	You're right. Okay, and why did you feel nervous saying that I'm right?
	Yeah. And why's that?
	Because Beth's sitting here and gets me to agree with you on something that's very uncomfortable.
	But why is it uncomfortable?
	I'm not saying it shouldn't be.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	This is just my opinion, right?
	But why is it uncomfortable?
	Is Beth getting upset?
	She doesn't appear she's getting upset.
	Okay, she's not currently shooting a knife or anything like that?
	She's not uploading a virus to my server and calling the FBI, right?
	I mean, she's not doing any of those things, right?
	No, she did say she is getting a little upset, though.
	Use the code word if she is...
	She is getting upset? Does she want to get on the horn?
	She still doesn't want to get on the phone, on the horn.
	Okay, but you know why she's upset, right?
	So why is she upset?
	The story, I believe, is something like...
	Well...
	I know it, I know it, I just...
	I don't know why I can't say it.
	Okay, I can tell you why, if you like.
	Yeah, sure. And you know, but tell me if I'm wrong, right?
	She's upset because she wants to be free.
	And it's terrifying. And what I mean by that is not that she wants to be free from her dad.
	I don't know, right? I don't know the details and it doesn't matter right now.
	But I guarantee you that Beth...
	Okay, I'll just talk to you, Beth, because I know you're listening.
	She's listening, right? Yeah. Yeah, she is.
	Okay, Beth. You desperately, completely and totally want to be free to be honest with your dad.
	To tell him what you think, to tell him what you feel, to listen to what he thinks, to listen to what he feels.
	You want to be not guarded around your dad.
	You don't want to sit there and say, okay, what can we talk about that's safe?
	What can I say that's not going to upset him?
	What can I say that's not going to make anybody mad or upset?
	What can I say that's going to be innocuous?
	What can I say that's not going to make people shoot me dirty looks?
	You know, you don't want to go over there to your dad's place and walk on this minefield and have to navigate.
	This is all very complicated, and it's all very depressing, and it's all very misery-inducing to have that kind of, quote, relationship where you're constantly walking on eggshells, and there's six billion things under the sun that you can't talk about, and there's like three things that you can talk about, all of which are crushingly dull.
	You want to be free to be self-expressed in your relationship with people.
	You want them to see who you, Beth, really are.
	And you want them to love you for who you really are, for the thoughts and the feelings that you have, even if they don't agree with them at all times.
	But you want them to be curious about who you are, and you want to be curious about who they are, and you want to get the feeling that you can talk and listen without this terrible dragon of offense and upset and anger and disappointment and guilt and manipulation, all of that rearing its ugly head and frightening the hell out of everybody in the room.
	And I know that you come back depressed from seeing your dad because you're not able to be real with him.
	You're not able to be yourself with him.
	That you go over to these people that you're supposed to be close to and you hide and you hide and you hide all the time.
	And that is very, very sad.
	That is very sad and it's not your fault.
	It's not your fault. You don't define the relationship with your parents.
	They define the relationship.
	You and James can define your relationship with each other.
	But you don't define your relationship with your parents.
	That's their definition.
	And I guarantee you that when you were young and you were honest and you were curious, as all children are, that you were punished in one form or another, either overtly or through people withdrawing or shooting you bad looks or whatever, right?
	And the reason that you're upset is that in this dungeon that you inhabit with relation to your dad, that you see a chink of light, right?
	Called... Honesty, right?
	Called telling him what you think and feel.
	And you really, really want that.
	You want that in all your relationships.
	You want that visibility and that honesty in your relationship with James, in your relationship with your dad, in your relationship with everyone else in your family, in your relationships with all your friends.
	And you're completely terrified because...
	There's a part of you, and we don't know if it's right or wrong, but there's a part of you that thinks the moment that you're honest, you're going to be alone.
	So you get stuck in this terrible paradox, and it is a truly terrible and heartbreaking paradox, which is that I have to spend time with people not being with people.
	I have to hide in the presence of other people.
	Because if you were alone, you wouldn't have to hide, and if you could be yourself with other people, then you would actually be really related to them.
	But you get stuck in this paradox.
	In order to be around people, I have to not be around people.
	In order to have a, quote, relationship with people, I have to hide and contradict everything that I really am.
	And I can guarantee you that you're really, really, really tired of doing that.
	Because that self-management, management of other people, hiding, what can I say, what can I not say, the dissociation, the navigation of the minefields, what's going to upset people and how do I get through this?
	That is all exhausting.
	It's like you're walking around with a backpack of lead on your back and you're tired of it.
	And you're upset because there's some truth.
	I'm not saying this is all truth.
	This is my opinion. You can let me know what you think.
	But there's some truth in what I'm saying.
	And you do want to be able to be honest.
	This is not radical.
	I mean, I'm not saying, you know, that we have to do all these weird things and believe in lizard men who conquer the planet 50,000.
	I mean, this is nothing weird, right?
	Philosophy is not weird. It's just, okay, well, if you have a relationship, you should be honest with people in your life.
	It's scary as hell.
	And it feels weird because it's so counter to the way that most of us have these, quote, relationships.
	But it's not weird when you think about it that you should be able to be honest with the people in your life who you claim to be close to or love or have a relationship with.
	So if I don't miss my guess, and maybe I'm talking completely out of turn, it's just nonsense, right?
	But if it works, it works.
	But you're upset because you want to be honest with the people around you and you're terrified that your relationships will not survive your honesty.
	How's this for you?
	She's nodding the scent stuff.
	Oh, good. Okay. Okay, good.
	So, and this is the first time I've talked to her, right?
	So, look, you're not alone in this, right, Beth?
	We've all been there. And we all, you never quite leave, right?
	Because this is all our histories, right?
	And it's not, we're not like a lost little broken tribe of people and everyone else has these great relationships with our parents, but we sad and broken little underworld of people don't and blah, blah, blah.
	This is everyone, right?
	This is everyone. This is everyone.
	The world is not a happy and healthy place because we're not allowed to be honest with each other, because we get attacked and punished for being honest.
	You could never say to your teacher in school, it's not all parents, you can never say to your teacher in school, I'm bored.
	I don't want to learn this stuff.
	I'd like to learn something different.
	You just had to shut up and take it.
	And anytime you express an opinion, pretty much you'd get punished.
	This is the world. And here in North America, it's a lot better than it is most other places, right?
	So this is kind of a new integrity to honesty that we're trying to work on here.
	It's not weird because everybody already agrees that you should be honest with the people that you're close to.
	But it's not like a lost tribe of broken people who are attempting to rejoin the whole people of society.
	We just kind of get it in advance of other people.
	Like, we're trying to understand it at a conscious level why we can't be honest with people.
	So this is like a vanguard of a new thing.
	It's not like we're trying to repair ourselves and rejoin the majority of society.
	We're going far out ahead of society, trying to make a new future where people can be Heaven forbid, actually honest with each other in their relationships.
	And nothing that I'm telling you is...
	I'm not telling you anything that I haven't done, right?
	I've had these conversations with everybody in my family.
	I have these conversations with Christina, sometimes a little more than she wants, but we've tried it all and lots of people in this community have tried this honesty and it's really grueling and it's really tough and it does feel like you're stepping off a cliff and hoping that some weird wind god is going to carry you to nirvana, but it does work.
	We all desperately want to be honest and open and vulnerable with the people in our lives and there are people who will attack you for that And you should not have those people in your life.
	You just shouldn't. You should not have people in your life who make you lie and who make you falsify who you are and who you can't be honest with.
	And it's a weird, new, honest conversation that we're trying to have with the world.
	And it is scary and it does sound bizarre, but only because it's so scary.
	These are values that everyone agrees with.
	Everyone agrees that we should be honest with each other, and we're just trying to say, okay, well, if that is the value, then let's actually do it, even when it's scary.
	Does that make sense?
	Because I know it's a lot to absorb, but that's sort of what this is all about.
	She's still very shy, but she says yes.
	Okay, so you might want to listen to the book that I've written about this stuff, Real-Time Relationships.
	It might be helpful.
	Maybe you could even push James to go past the first bit.
	If you go ahead of him, then what you can do is you can use all the tricks to get him to do stuff for you.
	So it's a lot of power, and just try and use it wisely.
	Well, thank you, Steph.
	Well, you're welcome. I mean, I hope that you guys stay in communication with each other about this kind of stuff, and I hope that this makes some sense as to why it's not just about whether you can struggle through a relationship, but if you allow these relationships into your life, it tends to drive out the good stuff, right?
	I mean, it doesn't take a lot of pee in a drinking bottle to make you not want to drink it, right?
	So you don't want bad relationships in your life because life is short.
	And when we die, we go into the ground, they throw dirt in our face, and we never come back.
	And we don't want to spend one more minute in these empty, nonsensical, manipulated, unpleasant pseudo-relationships.
	We either make them real or we make them gone because life is short and life is beautiful.
	And we want to preserve and defend that beauty, and the beauty primarily in our relationships.
	Well, thank you very much.
	You're very welcome. Any other questions about this, or is there a certain amount to chew on?
	I think, oh, I certainly got enough to chew on.
	I think Beth has been blown over.
	Yeah, well, sorry, you got the full FDR frontal.
	Normally this is stripped out in an unholy lengthy series of podcasts, but you kind of got the concentrated version.
	So I hope that it makes some sense.
	And, you know, call in any time.
	My email's on the website if there's anything I can do to help with this, because I know it is an alarming, though desperately yearn for, transition.
	But anything I can do, I can keep totally private if you like.
	Complaints about James, you know, we'll talk, sister, you and I. Now that I made her laugh a little too much.
	Look, the email's coming in already.
	Wow, 12 volumes. Oh dear, crash the server.
	Wow, you must have been preparing that for a while.
	Is she using the computer with her brain?
	Because that's a really cool interface.
	Thanks very much, and do stay in contact with us if you go through, if you want to, if it's useful.
	This is a community that can help, so I hope that you will.
	And we might think we have time for one more question.
	No? Alright.
	One more very tiny, rapid, tiny, nothing question.
	if anybody has one, as my food begins to be prepared.
	All right.
	Well, thank you, everybody, so much for another wonderful show.
	It is an absolute highlight of my week to speak with you brilliant, brilliant people.
	And I really appreciate your time and attention and focus on keeping this philosophical conversation moving and growing.
	Please drop by Greg's fabulous emporium of Free Domain Radio gear.
	It is great for us to have stuff bought.
	It is also great for the conversation for other people to see the website.
	So if you could do that, that would be fantastic.
	The four books, The God of Atheists, The Novel, On Truth, The Tyrion of Illusion, Universally Preferable Behavior, Irrational Proof of Secular Ethics, and the latest and greatest, I think, Real-Time Relationships, The Logic of Love, available And once again, thank you so, so much for dropping by this Sunday afternoon.
	And have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful week, my beautiful people.
	I look forward to your donations, and I will talk to y'all soon.

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