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Feb. 9, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:29:08
974 Foo-Crastination (a listener conversation)

The ABCs of the FOO-Review...

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Well, first of all, thanks for sending the email.
I know that that stuff is not the easiest or the most pleasant stuff in the world by any stretch of the imagination to talk about, but I think that you are, you know, for what it's worth, I think that you're doing the right thing and you're on the right track when it comes to actually dealing with procrastination in this way.
So, what has happened for you since you wrote the email?
Not a whole lot.
I ate dinner and went to sleep.
That's about it. And have you, I mean, you've obviously had some additional thoughts about it, or maybe some more thoughts about it?
Yeah, I did think about it a little more.
One particular memory came to mind.
I do remember my mom was really into coloring contests.
One time she brought back a coloring contest and she wanted me to color some flowers.
She had to go out to get some groceries from the car really quick.
When she went out, I had painted a flower green.
When she came back, she did not like that one bit.
And I got yelled at pretty bad for the green flower.
Right. Right.
Right. Okay.
And... I don't want to go into too much detail because you mentioned that you weren't comfortable going into too much detail about your family history, but I think it's suffice to say that you were savagely tyrannized and brutalized when you were...
I mean, I don't think that's an exaggeration.
I'm not saying you grew up in a concentration camp, although for children, what you went through would be effectively similar to a concentration camp for an adult.
But the hysteria and aggression that your mother had against you, and the indifference and sort of manly, alienating contempt that your father had, combine that with your brother's aggression, and I mean, you grew up like a ghost, right?
Something like that. Although, I guess about two months ago, I wasn't really sure if I was growing up in a violent setting or aggressive setting.
Yeah, I wrote an email and it sounds really bad looking back at it, but there was a lot of good stuff too.
I know you talk about that in some of your podcasts, but If I call her and I say, okay, you did this to me, this was really bad, how could you do that?
Granted, she probably couldn't say this for all of them, but I could see her saying something like, well, we did it for your own good.
Say you were going to do something that was going to harm yourself.
We wanted to stop you from that and you wouldn't listen, so we did X or whatever.
Right, right, right.
I mean, of course, your mom is going to have her story or description, if you like, for why she did what she did, and she's not going to say, well, I was a cruel sadist who enjoyed torturing children.
I mean, no one says that, right?
I mean, I think we can be fairly safe.
I'm not saying that's the case for sure, but for sure she's not going to say that, right?
Yeah, I hope not. Right, right.
I can't believe you didn't figure out that you were in an evil satanic cult where the children were hamana, hamana, right?
I mean, she's not going to say that.
But if you'd like, depending on your level of comfort with this kind of stuff, I would say that the first thing that you need to do when you start to bring this kind of stuff up about your history...
Is you're going to get into, it seems, it usually is very likely that what happens is you get into a kind of debate, an internal debate with your caregivers or with your mom or with your dad, where you say this bad stuff happened and then they say the opposite occurred, right? Or there were good times too, or you don't have kids yet, you don't understand, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
Yep, that's actually something that you said exactly verbatim.
Oh, look, I mean, we know the whole set of excuses, right?
Times were different back then.
We didn't have access to the same resources.
You were a difficult kid.
Until you have kids, you won't understand.
Compared to how I was raised, you had it easy.
We know all of this stuff, right?
This is constant propaganda that comes from parents, right?
Of course, the key question is...
Did she do it in public or did she not do it in public?
And what I mean by that is, did your mother aggress against you in this kind of hysterical way when there was a policeman around or, say, a priest or somebody in the community that she respected?
That's a really good question. I've actually been trying to think about that.
I don't remember any particular instance of her doing that in public.
Now, there were times when I would do something that she didn't like, and she'd be able to do something violent like that in the presence of a relationship, like company, like a relative or something like that.
But I don't think ever in a public place.
Right, so she would only aggress against you when she could get away with it, right?
Well, we know that because she got away with it, right?
For the most part. Well, tell me how she didn't get away with it.
Well, I'm becoming aware of it.
Well, but this is all after the fact, right?
I mean, you're 27, right?
So this is all way after the fact.
I'm talking about when you were a kid.
She got away with it, right?
I mean, she wasn't hauled off to court.
She wasn't ostracized in her community.
She kept her standing and so on, right?
Well, there was the guy I mentioned in my email that she did something in front of and he intervened.
Right, but she got away with it insofar as there were still no negative repercussions, right?
Like just at that one point, somebody stood up to her, but like nobody called protective services and nobody called the cops, that kind of stuff, right?
She didn't face any negative repercussions for emotionally abusing a child, right?
Right. So she did get away with it, right?
Yeah. And not only did she get away with it when you were a child, but she's also getting away with it now insofar as it is not a topic that you talk about, right?
Well, we started last time about two weeks ago.
That's the last I talked to her and we talked about it.
And what was the content of that or what happened?
Well, I brought up some of the things she did and I asked her where it came from or why she did that and she basically said, well, I'm sorry that we failed you and what can I do to make it up to you?
And why did you bring up why she did what she did?
I'm just curious. I'm not saying you did the wrong thing.
I just sort of want to understand.
I'll just try to figure things out in my head.
Okay, you do this thing to a kid, and they can't really defend themselves, so...
I mean, why would you do that?
I mean, looking back on the way I was, I think I was a fairly reasonable, happy kid.
I didn't want to do bad things.
I tried to be nice and good to my parents, but I think I would have responded pretty well to a reason and sit down and talk.
Right. Okay. I'm sure that is the case.
But tell me why it is that you...
I mean, do you think that what they did to you was morally wrong?
I'm just talking about the roof over your head and the food, but, you know, the emotional and occasionally physical violence.
Um... Well, I guess I think it's wrong, but I'm concerned that I don't have a counter-argument.
Like if she would ask, okay, well, okay, spanking or belting, that's really bad.
Well, what would you have done? And I really don't know how I would answer that question.
Like if I had a kid that was wearing a temper tantrum or something and I couldn't reason with him, well, what would I do?
Well, what you could do is you could say, well, what if, Mom, what if you get old and you start having symptoms of mild dementia and you forget your keys?
Am I allowed to belt you?
I suppose not.
You know what she would say, right?
I'd say absolutely not.
Well, why not? I mean, children have cognitive deficiencies, right?
Because they're children. It's the same way that they're short, so to speak, right?
So children have cognitive deficiencies, which means that they're forgetful and they lose things and so on, right?
All things which you were punished for, right?
Right. So if she were to develop, and she will, I mean this is inevitable, right?
When she develops, when she begins to develop cognitive deficiencies, in the same way that you had cognitive deficiencies when you were a child, are you allowed to scream at her and beat her?
And she would say...
She might say something like, well, it'd be best just to leave me alone because I've already had my full life and I don't need to be taught to behave any certain sort of way because I'm going to be in my house and whatever, but a kid has to grow up and integrate into society and whatnot.
Well, but of course, if she ends up living with you, and I'm not saying, God, no, she won't, right?
But if she ends up living with you, and you need her to be safe, or you need, like, because she says she did things.
So, for instance, if she runs a bath, and then forgets that she's run the bath, and it overflows, are you allowed to scream at her and beat her?
Because, obviously, she's done something that's going to be harmful to your house, right?
Mm-hmm. She would probably say something like, well, if I'm that bad, I should be in an old folks' home or something like that.
Okay, but that's no problem.
Then we say, should I give instructions to people in the old age home that if you forget things or do things that are detrimental to their interests that they can beat you?
Sorry, we just had a slight technical hiccup here.
The recording continues in just a moment.
Hello? Oh, hi.
Sorry about that. The fault was at my end.
Oh, okay. Yeah, so, sorry, let's just continue down this road, because I think that there's a lot of interesting stuff in here, and I certainly do appreciate that your mom would be a challenging person to debate with, right?
But saying, like, if you didn't have the money to put her in an old-age home, and she had to live at your house, and she did something like lost her keys, or ran a bath and forgot to turn it off, or whatever, right?
Then would you be allowed to hit her if you couldn't put her in a home and didn't have the money and so on?
Absolutely not. But why not?
That'd be a good one for her.
But you see, she knows exactly what to avoid, right?
She knows exactly which topics to avoid.
She would probably come up with something like, well, you just have to respect your elders no matter what, right?
So she'd just play the age card, something like that.
She'd just come up with something like that.
So she would have a great deal of difficulty with the logical or moral problem.
Sorry, can you just...
You're grinding around a bit on your microphone.
It's just kind of loud in my ear.
Like when you adjust it, if you could just find a comfortable spot with it, it would be easier.
Oh, sure. Thanks, no problem.
But it would be...
She would have a tough time defending it, right?
I mean, if you were persistent.
Yeah. And so, I guess the question I'm asking is, when you say to somebody, why did you do what you did?
What is the reason or the purpose behind that?
Like, when you say to your mom, why did you act in this way?
Like, what is it that you're looking to receive?
Are they protecting themselves, or...?
Well, but you're asking that question for a reason, right?
Because there's a whole bunch of things that you could do in that interaction, but you choose to ask that question.
I'm sure you have a good reason for it.
I'd just like to understand what it might be.
Oh, why I asked her? Why you asked her that question.
Why did you do what you did?
I was just trying to figure things out in my head like you did something really bad to a kid.
Well, why would you do that? It couldn't have been.
I find it hard to believe that it's because, well, I was reckless and I was uncontrollable and there was nothing else you could do.
I was a wild, rabid, raging beast.
Well, I don't think that was right. I was kind of hoping for, well, my dad did it to me and that's just what we were taught, something like that, I'm sure.
Well, but do you think that she admitted that what she did was immoral?
No, not really.
She did say she's sorry she failed to raise us right.
But that sounds to me like, I'm sorry that you just mysteriously had a bad experience.
I don't think she said, I'm sorry that I beat you and terrified you.
I'm sorry that I bullied you as a helpless child by threatening to send you to an orphanage.
Yeah, I think her exact words were, I'm sorry I failed you.
Right, right.
And what did that make you feel?
I kind of felt a little bad.
Bad how? Well, like...
You know, she's my mom.
I really haven't thought all this all the way through yet, and I still kind of feel that obligation and, well, maybe she was doing it because she had to or she was nice or she thought it was for her own good.
Maybe she had good intentions. So I kind of felt a little bad.
Okay, so you think that maybe she screamed at you and hit you because she had good intentions?
That does sound kind of funny when you put it that way.
Well, it's like saying I stabbed this guy because I had good intentions.
I mean, that's how I would sort of process it, but, you know, I'm certainly happy to hear if there's another way of looking at it.
Yeah. Actually, I was having a debate about this on the chat boards.
If there's a kid, let me play devil's advocate here for a second, if there's a kid and he puts a...
A pair of tweezers in the electrical outlet, or he tries to, and the parents try to talk him through it first, and then they give him a couple of warnings, and then he still goes and does it.
Is that reason to use violence to protect somebody from death?
Good Lord, no. You cover up your electrical outlets when kids are that young.
You child-proof your house.
I'll say he could go to kindergarten and find another electrical outlet to do it with.
They child-proofed those kindergarten classes like you wouldn't believe, right?
In my particular kindergarten, it was like a church, so they didn't do that.
Right. Or maybe what we could do is we could say, if the child is running towards traffic, what do you do, right?
Well, you grab the child and you restrain the child, right?
I mean, that, of course, in the same way that you would do that for a blind man, right?
Does that make sense? In that case, you could probably keep your doors locked so the kid doesn't get out, but in the case where there's electrical outlets all over the place and readily accessed...
Well, what I would do if I were the parent is I would say to the person running the kindergarten, for God's sake, childproof your kindergarten.
Like, I would go in there with the childproof stuff and I'd stick them in the electrical outlets.
I mean, there's so many alternatives to aggression against children that I can't really see any time where physical violence with children would make sense.
There's so many options, right?
Now, certainly, if I saw my kid about to stick a fork into an electrical outlet, I would grab that away.
But the whole point is that you prepare your kid, right?
You say, these things are very dangerous and you explain to them, you know, what's happening and why it's dangerous and you give them knowledge about electricity and about conductivity and so on, right?
So that they understand that it's not a good idea.
And the same thing you do with a hot stove, right?
Because kids don't want to hurt themselves any more than you want to go and stick a fork into your eye, right?
Right. So once they understand that certain actions will cause themselves to get hurt, then they're going to...
But of course, if you have a parenting style where you're just screaming at kids and so on, then they're confused, they're upset, they don't know what's going on.
And then, of course, they're going to do things that appear random or self-destructive.
But it's the abuse that comes first, and then the child starts acting in a manner that's dangerous.
Yeah, that's what I was wondering about.
That sounds right to me.
Yeah, children don't just get up and, you know, self-mutilate.
They don't just sort of, you know, push a thumbtack through their thumb, right?
That's a disturbed action, right?
That's the action of a child who's gone through severe trauma, right?
So parents can't say, well, you were self-destructive and therefore I had to be violent.
No. You're self-destructive because they've already been violent.
Yeah. I talked to a bunch of my friends after I started thinking about this, and some of the ones that didn't procrastinate, that were really spot on and everything, they had a parenting style similar to what you're describing.
Right. Right. Right.
And see, here's the thing, right?
You were terrified for your childhood, right?
During your childhood. I'm not saying that 24-7 you lived in constant terror, but it was never very far from the surface.
Right, yeah, I was pretty scared.
Well, terrified, right?
Sometimes. Like, if she started yelling, I'd be very terrified.
Well, but here's the thing.
She could start yelling at any time, right?
At the drop of a hat, yeah.
So, if I'm an abusive husband, and I only hit my wife once a week...
Can I say to her, are you crazy?
There's like 30.9 days that I don't hit you.
So you have it 99% good, right?
Can I say that? No.
Why not? Because it's crazy.
Well, why is it crazy? Because you're still hitting them.
Well, but most of the times I'm not hitting her, right?
Yeah. Like, if I hit her once a month for one minute, then she's 99.99999% hit-free, right?
So, why would she have anything to complain about?
Well, because she's getting hit.
Right. Right.
She's getting hit. And that colors everything.
And she doesn't know when she's going to get hit, right?
Right. So, hitting is then omnipresent within the relationship, right?
Yeah. It's not like on a timer where it's the same time and day every month.
Even if it was, it would still be part of the relationship, even if it was totally timed that way, right?
And she knew exactly, right, down to the minute when it was going to start, because she'd be anticipating it, right?
And then she'd be tortured about whether she should put up with it, and there'd be all the moral reasons.
See, the real abuse with children is not hitting them, right?
Because if simply getting hit was abusive, then when a child fell off a bike and smacked his head, we'd take the sidewalk to court, right?
Yeah, that's fear.
Well, it's not even the fear.
It's the moral story that the child is told about why he's being hit.
Right, did your mother say, I hit you because I'm bad?
Uh, hello?
Yeah, I'm getting some real grinding sounds.
My mic? Yeah, it means you're moving your microphone?
Nope. You might have a cord that's being rolled or cranked or something.
That's possible.
It's not exactly an expensive microphone.
Is it still going on? No, it's fine now.
Oh, okay. So, your mother didn't say to you, I hit you because I'm bad.
Right? Yeah. What did she say to you?
What was her story about why she hit you?
It was like, well, she wouldn't exactly give an explanation, but you could say, well, you were being bad, so I had to punish you so that you wouldn't do this again, or so you could understand, get it through your head, something like that.
Right, so you were hit because you were bad, right?
Mm-hmm. Right?
So, in a sense, you made your mother hit you, right?
Yeah. Now, did she ever say, I really enjoy hitting you?
No. She would probably say, I don't want to, but you make me do it, right?
Right. So, in other words, in this interaction, you are the aggressor and she is the victim, right?
Mm-hmm. Do you get how completely fucked up that is?
Yeah, that's pretty messed up.
That is the worst part.
That you, as a child, are portrayed as an all-powerful aggressor and the parent is the helpless victim.
And you are so bad that the only thing the parent can do is belt you or scream at you.
which you then get blamed for.
Right.
In other words, the parent offloads the entire impetus to the interaction onto the tiny little narrow shoulders of the child.
The parent takes no responsibility for her actions, right?
But blames it all on the child.
Right. Now...
That is highly, highly irresponsible, right?
fundamentally to say, my child is causing me to hit him.
Yeah, we're getting a lot of crackling noises.
And now you're cutting up?
Hello? Hello? Yeah, I can hear you.
Yeah, I'm just getting a lot of crackling noises and it gets hard to hear you.
And what that means is that you're shifting around, or if you could just, I hate to say it, but if you could just find a comfortable position and stick to it, that would be excellent.
Yeah, that's weird. I was trying to remain perfectly still.
I don't know where that was coming from.
Strange. Strange. Anyway, so, the parent says, I have no responsibility for hitting you, but the responsibility was entirely yours, right?
So the person who has the height, the economic independence, the power, the choice, the authority, and the capacity for violence, says, I have no responsibility, right?
And the helpless child, who's completely dependent upon his parents, has complete responsibility for the abuse, right?
And then... Is the child also...
See, irresponsibility then becomes the hallmark of the parents, right?
The parents say, I'm not responsible, right?
Right. Now, how were you treated if you acted in a, quote, irresponsible manner?
I was beaten. Right.
But you see the sick paradox there?
Yeah. Well, tell me.
Tell me about it. Well, there's no way for us to really defend ourselves, and if they acted in an irresponsible manner or irrationally, then they wouldn't have the same repercussions.
They wouldn't get beaten. Well, in fact, they'd be praised, right?
In a sense, for being good parents and beating their kids, right?
Mm-hmm. So...
If we look at the crime...
Of child abuse, continual child abuse, which is what you suffered, I mean, to me, without a doubt.
Is the yelling and guilt trips, is that also abuse?
Oh, absolutely. Fighting in front of children, screaming at children, raising your voice at children, bullying children, threatening to sever your parental bond with your children by calling...
I'm going to call the cops, have you taken to jail, I'm going to send you to an orphanage, threatening to send a child, a very young child, out into the world on his own, is sick abuse.
Complete and total child abuse.
Like, no question, 150% certainty.
And we know that it's child abuse because you were terrified the whole time.
I mean, you're not crazy.
You didn't say, hey, you know what?
I'm just going to wake up and respond to loving parenting without and out terror.
Right? Right.
So, we know that it's child abuse because you were terrified.
Mm-hmm. So, if we understand that child abuse is about the most heinous crime that someone is capable of...
Did you...
I'm sorry. Let me just start off with a metaphor.
I don't know if you've heard the one in the podcast where I talk about the guy in the wheelchair.
I don't think so. Okay.
I'll just run this one past you very quickly and maybe it'll help you understand.
Let's say that you see a guy in a wheelchair who's, you know, in his early 20s or whatever, but in a wheelchair...
And he inadvertently rolls over your mother's foot, right?
And she turns and BAM! Punches him in the face.
As an adult, now you see this.
What would you feel about that?
I'd be pretty pissed.
That's just reckless and insane.
Okay, go on. Well, I mean, the guy in the wheelchair didn't mean to do it.
It was an accident. Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Are you saying that even if he had meant to do it, it would be okay for her to hit him?
No. He's in a wheelchair!
But, go on. That's a pretty good analogy.
Yeah, yeah, she shouldn't hit him at all.
He doesn't have the capability to defend himself.
Well, that's not true, though.
See, this is why this metaphor is so good.
But tell me more. So you're just, you're in the mall, guy rolls over your mom's foot on his wheelchair, and she just turns and bams him in the face.
Just tell me what you think and feel in that moment, and what you would do.
Well, I would intervene. What are you doing?
That's crazy.
But even if you couldn't hit back or whatever, you could just run away from him.
That wouldn't be good.
I mean, hitting him in the first place is just totally wrong.
Okay. Now...
Would you, if the guy wanted to press charges against your mom for hitting him in the face, would you say, I think that's a good idea?
she should have, there should be consequences for what she does.
Hello?
Oh, sorry. Did you hear that last part?
Yeah. Yeah, I think there totally should be consequences.
So you would support pressing charges...
And again, this is just a metaphor. I'm not saying anything you have to do, but...
Would you support the guy in the wheelchair pressing charges against Jermon?
Hmm... I mean, I would take his side, but I don't know if I would publicly support him because of the whole nepotism thing.
What do you mean? Well, she's my mom, and I feel obligated to stick up for her.
Okay, and why? I wouldn't do it by supporting her, just not getting involved.
But that would be supporting her, because you'd be a witness, right?
Yeah. I suppose I would have to support the guy in the wheelchair.
Well, you say that sort of regretfully, right?
Yeah, because up until now I figured I'd take the side of your family because that's just what you do.
Well, did your mom take your side when you were part of her family as a child?
No. So help me understand, I don't understand what you mean, Moniz, because she sure didn't take your side, right?
Well, at least when she was angry.
There was a top-down hierarchy, but when it occurred outside of the family unit, she would take my side, like in school or whatever.
Yeah, but that's like saying, don't you dare hit my wife, that's my job, right?
Yeah. I mean, that's not taking my wife's side, right?
That's just saying, I want a monopoly on abuse.
And the reason that I'm asking you all these questions is that it's very important to, because your mom puts everything forward as a moral or practical argument, right?
But we need to sort of unravel all of this and figure out what are the real, quote, rules in the family, right?
Because she puts them forward as universal rules, right?
You said, Jesus Christ, so of course I had to pour liquid soap down your throat, right?
Because what you were doing was wrong, right?
Right. So she puts things forward as a universal rule, right?
But it's hard for me to understand how these universal rules work, right?
So you say, well, I would not want the guy in the wheelchair to press charges against my mom because you're supposed to stick up for your family, right?
But she didn't stick up for you when you were a kid in your family, right?
Right. So she doesn't have a rule called stick up for your family, right?
No. The rule is stick up for your parents.
Not really reciprocal. Right.
And what does stick up for your parents mean?
If we look at the wheelchair metaphor and we break that down, what does that mean in reality?
If she hit the guy in the wheelchair and the guy in the wheelchair said...
Hey, lady. You don't go hitting guys in wheelchairs.
I'm going to press charges, and I need you, your son, as a witness, right?
And you were to say, I think I'm going to do that.
What would your mom say? Yeah, well, how could you do that?
Right, you should stick up for me.
You should, you know, family, right or wrong, right?
But what does that actually mean?
I mean, in terms of practicalities, it means that I should be able to hit guys in wheelchairs and get away with it, right?
Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?
No. It's totally illogical.
And so what that means is that you should take the side of an abuser over a victim, right?
Mm-hmm. I mean, that's called being a bad guy, right?
Yeah. For you, I mean.
Right. That's not something I would do or could do.
Well, but you are doing it.
So if I stood up for myself in the past, it would be better for my moral character.
No, I don't think that's true, and I don't think that you had any chance whatsoever to stand up for yourself as a kid, right?
And into your teenage years and so on.
Like, that's not what I'm talking about.
I mean, like, right now. Like, going back and standing up for myself when I was younger, and I couldn't.
No, let me sort of explain sort of what I mean by saying that you are doing it now, right?
Which is that an adult man in a wheelchair...
You say he couldn't defend himself, right?
Right. But that's not true.
How can a man in a wheelchair defend himself against your mom?
Well, he can take her to court or roll over her feet again.
Yeah. He's not dependent on her, right?
Right. She doesn't have total legal and economic control over him, right?
Mm-hmm. He has legal rights, he can press charges, he can do whatever, right?
Right. So, as an adult, the guy in the wheelchair is infinitely better able to defend himself than you were as a child, right?
I'm not sure. I'm just sorry to interrupt for a second.
You're responding very quickly, and I really don't know, and it's hard to tell without eye contact, if you're processing any of this emotionally, because you're just like, mm-hmm, like very quickly, and I just don't know the degree to which this is impacting you or not.
Yeah, I'm getting it.
I'm not really sure where it's going to take me, but...
Okay, I just wanted to make sure.
So... As a child, you were infinitely dependent on your mother, and an adult in a wheelchair is completely independent relative to you as a child, right? Yeah.
So, what you're doing as an adult is you're saying...
My mom never hit a guy in a wheelchair.
Right? Because you go over and you have chats about religion and politics and this and that, right?
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.
We can do all this stuff.
It's fun. It's kind of bonding.
There's a connection there, but at the same time, there's this past that kind of overshadows everything.
Well, it does for you, right?
Yeah. So, you're refusing to act as a witness to yourself, right?
Yeah. Now, does it benefit you to lie about your past?
Or pretend it didn't happen?
No. Well, I guess in the short term it might.
Well, how so? I wouldn't have to deal with the immediate problems of saying that my mom was abusive or that she did an incredible harm to me.
But admitting that is, I think that's just something you should do.
Well, and tell me what you mean when you say, I wouldn't have to deal with the immediate consequences of saying that.
Do you mean saying that to your mom?
Yeah, both. If I didn't admit it right now, then that would save me from the discomfort of having to go back and look at all that stuff that happened from, I guess, a reasonable perspective. But it does also save me from going back and talking about that with my parents.
It's kind of a scary thought.
Well, of course, you don't have to talk about it with your parents, right?
Right. But you know what I mean?
I mean, you can admit it to yourself, what happened to you, and you can process your past, and you don't have to say one syllable of it to your parents, right?
Well, I don't have to, but I feel like I should.
Why? I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just curious what your reasoning is.
Yeah, I just think that it would help me try to put it in perspective, I guess, so that I could put myself back when I was having that stuff done to me, and I could maybe see things from their perspective and be and I could maybe see things from their perspective and be able to talk about it more often and get everything out in the
So you feel that a good way to experience or to process abuse is to continue to expose yourself to your abusers?
Well, I think I can stand up for myself now.
Amen.
I'm not really dependent on them.
Well, but... I'm still not sure how that relates to my last question.
It might. I'm sorry if I'm just missing it.
But I'm just trying to understand the theory which says the best way to recover from abuse is to be vulnerable in the face of abusers.
Oh, yeah. I'm not sure if it is.
It's just the only thing that I think of at this time.
So, grabbing at straws, I guess.
Well, I'm just trying to give you some possibilities, right?
Because... If you say, well, the way that I deal with my abuse is I try and see it from my parents' perspective, that's not healthy.
I guarantee you that's not healthy.
And I'll give you an example which is a bit more extreme, but perhaps it will help clarify what I mean.
If you're a woman and you get raped by a guy, does it do you any good to try and see it from his perspective?
No, but I think having a discussion with him to try and find out why he did might help him understand it better.
So that he'd be able to remove that illusion, or say in my parents' case, it'd allow them to remove that illusion that they were doing it to help me.
But why would you want to help your parents, right?
Like, if the woman who's been raped says, well, I really want to help my rapist get over the pain of having raped me, can you see that that might not make a lot of sense?
Yeah. Yeah, that does make sense.
I mean, if I'm tortured for years in prison, I don't think that I owe my torturer a whole lot of investment in his mental health, right?
Yeah, that seems pretty sick.
I mean, there may be somebody who can help the rapist, maybe some really competent therapist or something, if he wants to get fixed, but for sure his victim can't do it, right?
and shouldn't try.
And your parents, and we just talked about your mother so far, shows absolutely no indication that she wants shows absolutely no indication that she wants to try and empathize with this or with you or with the past in any way at all, right?
And she would do that by wanting to talk about it?
Or... No, she would do that by asking you your experience of it.
She would do that by going into therapy herself.
She would do that by paying for your therapy.
She would do that in a million ways.
She would do that by breaking down in tears.
She would do that by...
And you would feel it.
If she was genuine, I don't mean manipulative tears, like, oh, I'm sorry I was such a bad mother to you, right?
I mean, you know when somebody's being genuine with you, and you know when somebody's manipulating you, and you know that because when people are manipulating you, you feel kind of depressed and dismal and guilty and all that kind of crap.
When people are being genuine with you, it has a rich emotional resonance for all of us, right?
Yeah. And also, you know, if she genuinely wanted to fix any of this, it would have already happened.
Because now, she's caught.
You've caught her, right? You're beginning to wake up to your history.
You're not being a well-programmed little love robot for her, right?
So you're starting to wake up to your own experience.
Now she's caught, right?
So, how do we know that the thief is showing remorse?
Well, he voluntarily returns the property with restitution.
So, if a guy steals my car, I know he has remorse when he both returns my car and gives me $10,000 for my inconvenience.
That's how I know that he actually has some remorse, right?
Yeah. Sorry, when the cops catch him in my car and he says he didn't steal it, he says that he just borrowed it from a friend who he doesn't know where he lives, and he threatens to sue me, right? I know that he's not...
Yeah.
Now, if the guy who borrows my car totals it by driving it into a ditch, and he's totally broke, then he can't make restitution, right?
Yeah.
I can't get my car back, right?
Which means that any kind of forgiveness becomes impossible.
He could work to try and repay it.
Maybe. It's possible, but let's say he's showing no indication of getting a job.
Am I going to stand around there and say, well, maybe he'll have a change of heart a year down the road?
No. Right?
You just say, well, that's a write-off.
Now, I can't get my car back if the guy's broke and he's totaled my car, right?
Why is that metaphor important here?
Because I can't really be given anything tangible back.
And it's kind of hard to return that which was taken.
You can get your childhood back, right?
You can't get your childhood back.
You can never be the guy you would have been without these tyrants, right?
Bullying and terrifying you.
You'll never be that guy.
You'll never even know for one second what it's like to live inside the skin of that guy who'd been raised decently.
That's a tragedy, right?
Yeah. And no restitution is possible.
Like, if I have a kid and I don't feed him nearly enough food during puberty and he grows up kind of stunted with thyroid problems and this and that, I can't give him more food when he's 20 and fix it, right?
Yeah. He'll never be the guy who got enough food when he was a teenager.
That whole phase is gone.
Wow.
I'm pretty much stuck.
Well, look, there's good stuff that you can get out of your trauma.
I mean, you can get a lot of wisdom, you can get a lot of insight, you can get a lot of...
You know, in the same way that if you break your leg and you go through physiotherapy, you can end up stronger than before.
But you'll still never be the guy who never broke his leg, right?
But for sure, you are never ever going to be the guy who had a happy childhood.
Right. So restitution is impossible.
Because you cannot have restored to you what was taken.
Yeah, that's true.
And as to why they did it?
A. They'll never tell you.
B. It doesn't matter.
And C. It's not relevant.
They'll never tell you why they did what they did.
I guarantee it. They will never tell you why they did what they did.
Because they don't know, they're not curious, and they will throw themselves off a cliff if they were to ever figure it out exactly, right?
Like if they were ever to figure out exactly what harm they had done to a trusting, innocent, beautiful child, they would not be able to live with themselves.
This is a life-or-death struggle for them.
For both of them? Yeah, of course.
Your dad let it happen.
He's chuckling in the newspaper, right?
Reading the newspaper. He married her!
He knew what she was like!
like he gave her children.
Is my brother also responsible or is he off the hook because he was going through the same thing?
Well, that's a tough question.
I genuinely believe that kind of before puberty...
But the other question, did he hide it, right?
I mean, if he hid it, then he knew it was wrong and he's responsible, right?
You say that he became less aggressive and more passive later on in life.
But he's still telling you, oh, it didn't happen.
They never reversed the locks. You're crazy, right?
Well, he's responsible for that, right?
Because you're not crazy. You remember.
You were there. You know. Well, that's one of those things that I'm not entirely certain about.
Like, I seem to remember it happening, but I can't remember a specific instance.
But, sorry, what I'm trying to get at here is that whether or not the locks were reversed or not is completely irrelevant, right?
Right. Because what you do remember is damning enough, right?
Mm-hmm. So focusing on whether the locks were reversed or not doesn't matter.
When you got the serial killer convicted for 25 murders, it doesn't matter whether he ran a red or not.
What's that going to give him, 401 years in prison?
Yeah. What I don't get is that I kind of had the same thing, you know, where it gets passed down.
So, like, say they did this to my brother and he took it out on me, and I could have taken it out on my younger sibling, but I didn't.
Right, right, right.
Well, you, God bless you, so to speak, and we don't know why, you have empathy.
You can't hurt another human being, particularly a child, except in an extremity of self-defense.
You can't hurt someone if you have empathy.
I mean, you might do it unconsciously, you might be, you know, whatever, distracted, or you might be snappy, but you can't torture someone if you have empathy.
So you, we don't know how, we don't know why, managed to hang on to your empathy, which is great to be applauded, right?
But you're an angry guy, right?
You're an angry guy about the past, and I think that you have absolutely every right to be angry about the past.
But you feel helpless in the face of your family, so it comes out as procrastination.
I'm not convinced I am angry.
I mean, I know that it really bothers me, but I'm kind of a pacifist.
I try to... I guess I'm still trying to work things through without any sort of anger or aggression, even though I know anger is healthy.
Yeah, sorry. Tell me what you mean when you say, I don't get angry because I'm a pacifist.
I went through college and I read Seneca.
I think that might have twisted my views on some emotions.
Oh yeah, like the whole thing where you should not let passion take away your soul.
It's a demon that you must vanquish and so on, right?
Yeah, I think what he was saying about anger, at least, was that it was a temporary form of insanity and that any time it occurred you should stop and question it and think through it calmly and that type of thing.
Well, but what he's talking about is rage, which is very different from anger.
Okay. Right?
What your mother was displaying towards you was abusive rage, right?
Mm-hmm. But that's not anger.
Like when the guy defended you against your mom, he obviously was upset at how you were being treated, right?
Yeah. Was he abusive in turn?
No. No. So he was angry, right?
Yeah. And you appreciated that.
It was good. It was healthy.
It was necessary. I really appreciated it.
Right. So that's an example of somebody who's angry, but it's not rage, it's not destructiveness, right?
See, anger you can think of as like your body's defense mechanism, right?
Like, you know, you have this immune system, right?
You get a cold, it attacks the cold virus and so on, right?
Yeah. Well, that's healthy, right?
But rage is like cancer, or like AIDS, where your body just starts attacking healthy cells, right?
So we want to differentiate between an immune system and cancer.
Because there's no way that you can spend your entire childhood frightened and bullied and not be angry.
It's impossible. In any childhood or just...
Any childhood. There's no possibility that any child...
Like, it's exactly the same as saying, well, if you don't feed a child, maybe he'll just be fine.
Right? It's never going to happen, right?
And if you bully, frighten...
I mean, it happens at the autonomous nervous system level.
It happens at the limbic system. It happens in the hypothalamus.
It happens... It shapes your brain when you're bullied and controlled and aggressed against as a child.
Shapes your brain.
And there's no possibility...
That we can be aggressed against for years and not be angry.
And that doesn't mean violent and that doesn't mean abusive and that doesn't mean destructive.
But I guarantee you that you're angry at your parents and I guarantee you to some degree that you're angry at your brother.
And I guarantee you that they don't want that feeling in you.
Yeah. They'll try and talk you out of it.
They'll try and defuse you like you're a ticking bomb, right?
And the reason they want to do that is because if you're angry, then what they did becomes real, right?
So my concern here is that you're living their agenda, right?
I mean, your mom wants to think that she was a good mom, and she wants to think that if bad things happened, it was your fault, and she wants to do all of that by ha-ha, chuckle-chuckle, let's talk about religion and politics, right?
That doesn't serve your agenda, right?
It doesn't serve your needs, your reality, right?
Right. So you don't want to spend one second or one day more of your life not being really honest with the people around you.
I mean, deep down, right?
Because you've got to have some conclusion to this.
You're paralyzed. You have problems with procrastination.
You have doubts about your relationship with your girlfriend.
You've been going out for years.
Right? You're kind of in orbit, right?
You're not making any progress.
Right. Right? This shows up with problems at work, in your personal relationships, and so on, right?
Mm-hmm. Now, you can break out of this orbit, this like airless, not getting anywhere thing.
But in order to do that, you have to let go of some illusions, right?
And it was not your fault what happened to you as a kid.
That there was sadism and brutality within your family, and that your parents are perfectly able to control their tempers.
If they want. And they just chose not to, right?
And that's why I ask, do they do it in public?
Actually, now that you mention it, I mentioned a story about my brother having an attempt at him being thrown into the water.
That was pretty public.
Well, sure, but that's not the same as beating a kid, right?
Right. They never did the really ugly stuff.
With people they didn't know and trust to support their abuse, right?
Never, not once, right?
I can't say for sure.
Oh, you'd remember. You would remember that.
That would be startling. That would be like...
you would be able to remember that like nothing else. - Does doing it in front of other relatives count?
No, it doesn't count if those other relatives aren't going to do something.
Okay, yeah, because I think that happened in some cases in front of relatives.
And I bet you those relatives were equally abusive to their own children, right?
Very possible. Well, it's based on the situation you're describing.
it's almost certain.
So your parents have the capacity to control their tempers.
And how do we know that?
Because also, when you bring this stuff up now, your mom doesn't scream at you and try and hit you, right?
Right. Why? Because I'm not really dependent on her anymore.
Right.
You see, she can control her temper.
If she wants.
I mean, that's how we know that it's not a physical mental illness, right?
Like somebody who's schizophrenic, you give them a million dollars to not say crazy things, and they eat the million dollars, right?
Yeah. Right, but if your mom had been given a million dollars to not yell at you for an hour, she would have made it, managed it, right?
Right. So they're not crazy.
And they have the absolute and perfect ability to control their tempo, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that just makes what they did all the more horrible.
Oh, completely, yeah. I mean, this means that they're perfectly responsible for what they did, because they have the capacity to do otherwise, and did and do otherwise.
And also that they're continuing to exploit you now, right?
Because you're in your relationship with your parents, not for your needs, not for your benefit, right?
But for their benefit.
For them to pretend that everything's fine, right?
Yeah. And when you bring up the truth of your experience, you'll know, and this will never happen, but if you don't believe me, go test it, obviously, right?
What do I know, right? But it won't happen.
Go test it, though. But you'll know, because your mom will say, oh man, tell me more, oh man, tell me more, tell me more.
she will not interrupt you with justifications or excuses or anything like that.
Right, so my concern is that you're going to go in to talk about this with your parents and they will always have amazing, incredible and total power over you.
Always. You cannot get rid of 27 years of first impressions.
You just can't. Any more than you can pretend you don't know English when someone's speaking English to yourself, right?
Yeah. So they will always have a dictatorial power over you, no matter what.
No matter what. So if you go in and you try and establish your reality with people who are complete ninja experts at fogging, confusing, baffling, misdirecting, passive-aggressive, guilt-inducing manipulation...
The question is, how long are you going to beat your head against that wall?
I can't stand up for myself now?
With them? No. No, it's never going to happen.
It's never going to happen. I'm going to tell you, I haven't seen my mom, and you do what you want with your family, right?
But I haven't seen my mom in like eight years.
I swear to God, if I saw her walking down the street towards my house, my bowels would turn to ice.
I mean, she's like in her 70s, right?
She couldn't do a damn thing to do any physical harm to me, right?
I work out, I'm 215 pounds, right?
She couldn't do a thing.
I would be completely terrified to see her.
And that will never change.
That's hardwired. I mean, that's growing up with this person, right?
Where does that come from? Is that like an emotional obligation or...
No, this is just the channels carved in my brain, right?
Like, I was exposed to English and I learned English as a language when I was a kid.
So that's just the way my brain is.
It's shaped like somebody who learned English, right?
And so I can't pretend that I don't know English.
It's just carved in. It's my whole...
It's not just my brain. It's my whole nervous system, right?
You know, like a soldier who's been in combat for ten years...
Can't be emotionally neutral to a war film, right?
Right. Can't be.
It's impossible, right? And that's an adult we're talking about for you and me, right?
20 years as a kid, right?
So if I'm able to recognize the anger I have toward them, I'll never be able to get rid of that.
It'll always be there.
Well, no, I wouldn't say that to be the case, right?
Because the whole purpose of this kind of anger is to get the bad people out of your life.
Now, once the bad people are out of your life, then you don't have to be angry anymore, right?
So, I mean, it's like once your immune system has killed the cold virus, it doesn't keep going, right?
It just stops. But I guarantee you that you will be perpetually procrastinatory, that you may get into a very disastrous marriage, and you may have children with a disastrous mother.
I don't know. I'm just saying, right?
But for sure, the problems that are caused by your childhood will continue in your life.
As long as you hang around your abusers.
So the way out of this is defooing?
Well, I mean, that's my suggestion.
Again, it's worked for me, it's worked for a whole lot of other people.
Because there's no possibility of restitution, you're not getting any honesty, and life is short.
You don't want to spend the next ten years stuck in the same thing, right?
But the important thing is, I mean, if you want to, if you're not certain, and it sounds like you're not, then obviously, I mean, what do I, I'm just some guy in Canada, right?
So, I mean, you've got to go with your own experience and judgment.
But if you want to get to the quickest resolution, which is my strong suggestion, then I would do, if I were you, I would do the following.
I would go and talk to my mom and dad.
Get them together. And your brother, too, if you can.
And I would talk about my feelings.
Right? I don't get the sense that you're somebody who's very connected to his feelings.
Probably not. Well, yeah, and the probably part is the not, right?
And the reason that I say that is because you went to your mom and you said, why did you do what you did?
But that's not...
Any kind of answer she's going to give, you're not going to trust or believe anyway.
But what you need to do is you need to go to your parents and you need to say, do you know that I was really scared through most of my childhood?
This was my experience of this situation.
This was my experience of that situation.
This was my experience.
And you just say, this is how I felt when I was a kid.
And I'm really scared to be telling you now, my heart is pounding, my hands are shaking, I'm terrified.
Because that's all honest, right?
Because as soon as you say, Mom, why did you do it?
And she says, well, because of this, and well, because of that, and well, because of the other.
Well, what are you going to say?
I don't believe you. But then where do you go?
You're stuck. Stalemate, right?
You can't go anywhere in that direction.
Because you're arguing evidence, and there's no evidence.
The past is gone, right?
There are no videotapes.
There's no affidavits.
There's no recreations, right?
So you say, I don't know if you've read the Real Time or listened to the Real Time Relationship book.
Strongly, strongly, strongly recommend it.
But you just say, this was my experience.
And I think it's had some bad effects on my life, you know, and I'm trying to deal with those and be responsible for what happened in my past.
But I wanted to talk about this with you for a day or two.
I've been terrified the whole time.
I'm terrified now. I don't know why.
I'm not saying it's because you're bad people, right?
But you just keep talking about your experience in the moment.
Of what is happening to you emotionally when you're talking to your parents, your brother, or whatever, right?
Because nobody can tell you that you're wrong, right?
If you say, I was terrified when this happened when I was 10, and they say, no, you weren't, right?
What would that mean, right?
Uh, hey. Hello?
It wouldn't mean anything, right?
Like, if I'm some abused woman, And I say to my husband, I'm terrified of you.
That's honest, right?
If I say to him, what were you thinking last summer when you hit me?
There's no reality in that, right?
And he can just make up whatever he wants.
So is there any point in even asking the question?
Or bringing up those points in my history?
Well, um... If you have doubt about your parents, and obviously this has been one conversation, right?
And you've... I mean, you're trying to engage with your mom and so on, right?
So you're in that process, right?
So my suggestion is you keep talking honestly with your parents until you just don't want to do it anymore.
Right? And if they make up stories about that, then you say...
Like if they say, well, it's because we didn't have access to the resources, right?
Most people's temptation is then to say, what do you mean?
There was the Dr. Spock books, there was stuff at the library, there were parenting classes available in the 60s or 70s, I guess you're in the 70s or 80s when you grew up.
This stuff was all available, there were therapists, there was this, that, and the other, right?
But that's, so what?
Those, oh, we didn't have, we didn't know about those.
It all becomes stuff you can't prove and can't do anything with, right?
But when you say, well, like if you say, why did you do it?
Say, well, we didn't have the resources, then you can tell them how that makes you feel, right?
Because, you know, I think the resources were available, but you didn't want to take, and that makes me feel X, right?
And then you're not dealing with facts that can't be proven, but you're dealing with your experience in reality, right?
That's where the breakthrough or the breakup is going to come, right?
So what if they offer genuinely to help or something like that?
Like they say, okay, we'll pay for your therapy or whatever.
Well, you have to know, I mean, the only thing that I would suggest, and this is because you're an analytic, you're a very smart fellow, right?
You're very intelligent in ways that I can only dream of, such as math, right?
So, you know, with all due respect for your intelligence, what you're going to want to do is you're going to want to draw this Dungeons and Dragons type thing about how you navigate this conversation, right?
That's your temptation. Yeah, what do I say if they say this, right?
Well, you tell them how it makes you feel, right?
So if they say, fine, we'll send you to therapy if that's what you want so badly, right?
How would that make you feel?
Not really. Oh, I know. You know.
You know. Like if they said it in just that tone that I gave you.
Fine, we'll send you to therapy if that's what you want so badly.
We'll pay. Fine. In that tone, I wouldn't be too happy about it.
But I think if they did, they'd probably do it sincerely.
Yeah. I don't know that you'd want to be going in with a prejudgment that people who are capable of decades of child abuse have the capacity for sincerity.
To their victim.
Right? So you're saying there's absolutely no way they can even feel remorse or offer anything?
Well, it would be unprecedented, right?
I mean, I've gone through I don't know how many people with this particular process.
It would be unprecedented? I don't know.
I mean, it's...
Maybe a rock will fall up tomorrow and we'll learn something new about physics.
I don't know, right? It could be.
It could be. But I certainly would not go in with that expectation, right?
Because I would go in with zero expectation of it happening and open to being pleasantly surprised.
because if you go in with the expectation of them having some kind of turnaround, they will smell that in you and they will manipulate you because of that desire.
So when they say, X, Y, we'll pay for therapy, we'll do this or that, you just have to tell them how we'll pay for therapy, we'll do this or that, you just have to tell And if you can't figure out at the moment, then you say, well, I'll have to just sit here for five minutes if you could just hold that thought.
Let me just sit here for five minutes, look inwards and see how that makes me feel.
And then you tell them. Is that how you do it if you're disconnected with how I feel?
Is that the way to go about it?
Well, you can't have a productive communication with somebody if you're not in touch with your feelings.
I know that you and I have the same rational brain and it took me a while to trust these evil little imps called feelings but they're really helpful and really good at what they do.
They're a lot better at my life than I am in many, many ways.
They're not better at philosophy But they sure are better at intimacy and love and joy and happiness, right?
Because those are all emotions and that's what we want, right?
So, for me, it would just be a case of, you know, sit down with yourself beforehand.
You know, you can write stuff out.
You can prepare and so on.
But it's sort of like saying, do you play racquet sports at all?
Yeah. Okay, tennis, right? So, in tennis, obviously it's good to practice, right?
But if you've got an important match coming up, I don't think it's important to say, okay, well if he hits it over here, I'm going to hit it there, and then he'll hit it back over here, and then I'll run over there, and then I'll go over here, and then I'll go up to the net, and then I'll go, right?
Do you understand how that would never work in tennis, right?
Why not? Mm-hmm. Because everything's kind of like in the moment.
You can't just have a game plan for every single thing that's going to happen and go, oh yeah, I remember page two, it says do this.
Right, because you've done your practice and you trust your instincts in the moment, right?
Because when you're in the game, you're done with your practice.
Now you're playing, right?
So this is the same thing. There's nothing wrong with practicing this.
If you've got friends who can help you role-play or whatever, that would be great, very helpful.
But when you get into the conversation, you just tell them how you feel in the moment, but you don't sit there and say, well, if they say this, then I'll do that.
That's just going to paralyze you.
So what was your approach to listening to your feelings and that type of thing?
You mean in this situation or in another situation?
In your situation when you were realizing all this and you were trying to talk to your parents.
It was horrible.
I mean, it's as horrible for me to contemplate you doing it as it is for me to do it myself.
It's horrible. It's totally, totally horrible.
But I just had to say, and I was still, this is all quite a long time ago, and I didn't have all the words for it endlessly that I do now, but I knew that it was important for me to be honest with people, right?
To be honest with people and to let them make whatever decision they wanted to based on my honesty, right?
I wasn't going to try and control the outcome, and I wasn't going to try and make them listen, and I wasn't going to try and make the conversation go some way, and I wasn't going in desperate for a, quote, positive resolution to the conversation, right?
Because that's all jumping out of your own skin, managing from Jupiter stuff, right?
What I wanted to do was I wanted to go in and say, you know what, I am going to be as honest as I can possibly be in this interaction, in the moment.
Not about just when I was eight this happened, but then when people say, oh, that's nonsense, right?
Then say, you know, when you just said, oh, that's nonsense, I felt my whole stomach drop.
Like I felt really scared and nervous, right?
So I wanted to talk not just about the feelings I had in the past, but the feelings I was having in the moment.
And that's really hard.
Because it's like dropping your armor when you feel that there are arrows coming in, right?
It's really counterintuitive, like most things that are worthwhile.
So from that process, I found out that I didn't really like my family.
Because I didn't want to control their reactions to what I was saying, but I also didn't want to control my reactions.
So I said, okay, well, I'm going to be as honest as I know how, and then I'm going to see how I feel afterwards, right?
Do I want to talk to them again?
Was that positive? Did I feel there was a breakthrough through and so on, right?
And so you just go and be as honest and don't try and control what they do and don't try and control how you react to it, but just see how you feel afterwards.
And I felt like crap afterwards, right?
And of course, everybody was saying to me, well, you felt like crap because you did something wrong.
And it's like, well, I don't have any proof of that.
I went in and I was as honest as I knew how and I didn't yell at anyone and I didn't call anybody names and I was just really honest and I knew that because I was terrified.
And afterwards... I felt belittled or ignored.
I felt put down.
I felt diminished.
I didn't feel good, right?
And then I had doubt, so I went back and I did it again.
And I had doubt, and I went back and did it again.
And after the third or fourth time, it's like, I don't want to go back and do it again.
In fact, I'd pay good money to never have to do that again.
And that's when you know you're done, right?
What worries me is that I was raised being told what to think, what to feel, and what to do.
And now that I've come to the point I am, I was kind of confused.
So I kind of reached out to rationality and empiricism.
So it's kind of led me to where I am.
And now if I go back, I'm worried that I won't be able to trust what I'm thinking or feeling.
Right. And I totally understand that.
But I'm telling you that you have all the rationality.
Your feelings are rational and empirical.
When you were terrified as a child, that was not irrational, was it?
When you feel fear at the very idea of talking this openly with your family, if they then turn out to be absolutely wonderful people, and they listen and they care and they're concerned and you feel whole and healed and all that, then of course your fear of doing it was irrational.
But I guarantee you that's not going to happen.
I guarantee you that your fear...
Of talking to your family honestly and openly is completely rational.
So it's important to understand that feelings are not the enemies of reason.
Defenses are the enemies of reason, but that's different.
How do you differentiate between feelings of the true self and the false self?
Well, that's a big topic, and there are some podcasts on that.
But just sort of very briefly...
are philosophically sound, right?
Right, so the false self-feelings are like, okay, they abused me, but I'm going to hang around them, right?
That's not philosophically sound, right?
Right.
Right.
It's not logical.
It's not logical, it's not empirical, it just, like, you know, when we were talking, and I used these analogies, and you said, you're right, that doesn't make much sense, right?
It's not empirical.
It just, like, you know, when we were talking, and I used these analogies, and you said, you're right, that doesn't make much sense, right?
Or that is pretty heinous or whatever, right?
Or that is pretty heinous, or whatever, right?
Well, everything that causes you to ignore those basic facts, like how would you feel if your mom hit a guy in a wheelchair, that's all false self-defense, right?
Well, everything that causes you to ignore those basic facts, like how would you feel if your mom hit a guy in a wheelchair, That's all false self-defense, right?
It's avoidance.
It's numbing.
And it drives those feelings underground, and they erupt in other areas in your life, like procrastination about your work and your relationship.
But the true self-feelings are philosophically sound.
And they're the same in every situation, right?
Like UPB, right? So the true self feelings are like, okay, if my mom hit a guy in a wheelchair, I'd be disgusted and feel that she was a bad person and be horrified, right?
And I'm also horrified and disgusted by the fact that she hit me when I was a child.
And I'm even more... Because I experienced it and I was completely dependent upon her, right?
So there's a consistency in the true self-feelings, but the false self-feelings, they divide everything up into contradictory nothingness, right?
So what kind of confuses me is that how can...
I know a couple people that they weren't treated like I was, maybe, but they were hit maybe a couple times, and they turned out okay.
So... Is there a lot more to this, or is it just the degree to which you're attacked?
Well, I couldn't say that, and I don't want to go ex parte with third parties that I don't know anything about, right?
But again, I think that this is part of you trying to create a conceptual map for this.
Well, that was my experience compared to these other people who don't have this, but they might have that issue.
Forget all of that. I know that that's tough, right?
Because this is something you hold on to quite strongly, and with good reason.
and you're very good at conceptualizing and it's part of your career, but forget all of that.
Forget other people's experience and what happened.
This is your experience, your history, your family, your childhood, your life that you've got to focus on, not comparing it to other people because you don't know their history and their parents.
It takes forever to learn this stuff about people deep down, to all its level of detail, but just focus for the next little while on your experience and your honesty with your family and obviously with your girlfriend as you move forward.
Mm-hmm.
You mentioned earlier that you said that defooing was the quickest way, implying that there was other ways.
Well, no. I mean, look, in my opinion, in my experience, and I've been doing this for a while, but there's not going to be a way that you can ever have a good relationship with your parents, right?
So most relationships have got to have ten times the good things than the bad things, as a general rule of thumb.
So you had 27 bad years with your parents, Or even if we say it's only 20, right?
That means you've got to have 200 good years with your parents in order to match up.
But then we can say that it's even more than that because these were the 21st years and so the first impressions take a while to undo and so on, right?
Even if your parents turned into perfectly wonderful people tomorrow, we just don't currently live long enough for that to turn around, right?
So when I say defu, like you can defu, you can just sort of wake up one day and say, you know what, I've thought about this whole thing, and yes, they are people that I don't want in my life.
I'm going to start building better relationships with people, and this stuff's only going to get in the way and re-aggravate my symptoms.
So you just slither out the back door through the defu process that has been talked about before.
Or, you know, you can say, well, I'm going to try and make it work by not talking about my past and you can spend another five years wasting your life around these people and with the additional disaster that you might get married and have kids with the wrong person.
And then you sort of go, damn, I wish I'd listened to that crazy Canadian guy five years ago.
Or you can go in and you can be honest and go through this whole sequence of conversations and so on.
But yeah, for sure, in my opinion, you can't have a good relationship with people who abused you for decades when you were a helpless child because the only reason they've stopped is because you got bigger.
and that's not a very virtuous thing.
But, you know, the important thing is for you to figure that out for yourself.
And you don't have to.
You can continue to float around and do stuff.
It's just that if you get married and have kids and it's the wrong person, then you're going to just be living your childhood all over again.
I don't want that for you.
Yeah, that'd be bad.
Yeah.
Thank you.
So the anger that I have from being raised like that is kind of manifesting itself in passive-aggressive responses to not doing good work and not doing it on time?
Oh yeah, for sure. For sure.
I mean, you like your career, right?
I'm not sure. Oh, you're not sure. I'm sorry.
I thought you were quite keen on your career.
No, I'm really not sure.
I'm beginning to wonder if I might have done that because it's what they wanted me to do or it's where I was directed.
Because I remember asking, well, I don't know what I want to do.
What do you think I should do? Ah, right.
And they'd say, well, you're good at math, so do something in the science.
Right.
Now, what would really good parents have said?
Think about it and do what you like.
Sorry.
Sorry to be a dick.
I really want you to.
Yeah, I have no idea.
No, of course. I mean, you're a very smart fellow, but there's stuff that you're trained not to think about.
So if you say to your parents, I don't know what I want to do, right?
What they will say is, good parents will say, why is it you think that you don't know what you want to do?
Was there something in the way we raised you?
How is it that you deal with decisions as a whole?
They wouldn't just say, do this, or go off and think about it and get back to me.
they would be curious about your thinking and how it works for you and they'd sit there all weekend, all week if they had to, to try and get to the bottom of it did you see the difference?
yeah .
But of course, if you had parents like that, it seems very unlikely that you would ever end up in a situation where you wouldn't know what you wanted to do with your life.
Because you'd already be used to making decisions.
So is that something I can fix or?
You can fix it for sure.
Of course, yeah. You can fix it for sure.
But you have to...
You're in a slow drip poison with your parents, right?
Because you're hanging around your abusers.
So you're in a slow drip poison situation, so the first thing you do is you stop the poison.
And then after a while, you'll start to feel stronger and better.
I mean, we do heal. This is not like permanent, right?
But you've got to keep re-exposing yourself.
You've got to stop re-exposing yourself to this situation with your parents.
Okay.
Well, it looks like I have a lot of thinking to do.
Um...
Yes, I think that's true, but I would actually put it more down to feeling and acting at the moment.
You've got no shortage of thinking capacity, right?
But I would make the call as soon as possible and say, I want to sit down and talk about some family stuff with the family.
Then you can do some preparation for it, but it's not so much thinking as it is doing and talking about your feelings with them.
Is this something that could be done over the phone, or is this a probably-should-be-done-in-person thing?
It's better in person, but if that's not possible for, like, a month, I would do it as soon as possible.
But, I mean, phone is better, and if you've got webcam...
Sorry, in-person is better.
If you've got a webcam, then that's better, too.
But I wouldn't put it off for a month if you're just not going to be able to see them for a while.
Gotcha. So you'll let me know how it goes?
Or let me know when you decide?
Oh, I will definitely do that.
I really appreciate this.
Thank you very, very much. You're very, very welcome. I'm sorry we didn't get to the procrastination thing, but I think you'll be surprised how quickly that gets dealt with when you deal with the other thing.
So there is another part to this then?
Well, yeah, but I mean, the first thing you do is you stop doing the wrong thing, right?
You stop exposing yourself to the poison, and then you start working out, right?
Yeah. So, but just deal with this thing first, and then I think you'll find that the procrastination thing will be a whole lot easier and better.
When you deal with the root cause, then you don't have to deal with the symptoms nearly as much, and since procrastination is a symptom of your dysfunctional relationship with your family, once you deal with that, procrastination as a symptom should alleviate very quickly.
How will I know when the parental thing is gotten rid of and is no longer a problem?
Well, that's the question of closure, and I'll refer you to the real-time relationship book for that, if you don't mind.
Yeah, I actually bought that a couple days ago.
I haven't gotten a chance to listen to it yet.
Well, of course not. You've been putting it off, right?
How could it be otherwise?
Okay, well, listen, keep me posted about what happens, and I'm glad that this was a useful conversation for you.
Okay, thank you very much.
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