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Dec. 6, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
46:41
932 Predatory Depression Part 2 (A listener conversation)
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Time Text
How's it going? Hi.
Hi. So, I'm sorry. I just didn't want to necessarily interrupt your entire life, but I just had a couple of thoughts this morning that I wanted to sort of run past you and just sort of see what you thought, if you have a few minutes.
Oh, yeah. I'd love to hear them.
Okay. So...
About, you said, a little over a year after your dad officially left your mom, you became depressed when things in your life were going very well.
Yep. And your depression is not for the faint of heart, right?
I mean, the degree of your depression was considerable, right?
I mean, it was a pretty black dip, right?
Yeah, definitely. So, I have a little theory, because the timing of these kinds of things tends not to be accidental.
So, if you have some sort of repetitive strain injury, like a carpal tunnel or tennis elbow or something, it builds up over time, but usually there's not one particular moment that turns it chronic, but that's not the case with psychological ailments.
And since I went through a very similar thing to you, though I did not go quite as dark as you did, but then I didn't have quite as difficult a family life, for me, a lot of finding my way out of it had to do with finding why I went into it when I did, if that makes sense. Yep, perfect sense.
So, then the question becomes, why...
Why did it happen at that time?
Now, there's some stuff that seems to be somewhat required for a kind of collapse into truth, if that makes any sense.
Some stuff that seems to be required.
Generally, when people are highly stressed, like, I mean, if you're in a war, you know, or you have no money, or you've got three screaming babies, people tend not to have that kind of collapse.
But... Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. When their life is going well and better, say, than it's ever gone before, they then get depressed and it's somewhat incomprehensible.
But in a sense, that's when they've reached the shore and that's when they can realize or recognize how tired they are or how dysfunctional certain things are.
And you may not get it consciously, but that's what happens unconsciously.
Yep, that definitely makes sense.
So then the question is, what was the precipitating incident?
And I'd like to sort of put forward...
A theory, and you can let me know whether it rings true or not.
Okay. Your dad has a story about his life and who he is, which you have engraved, really, on your very bones.
So, if your dad were to give me the few-minute version of who he is and what kind of guy he is and so on, what would that sound like?
Ooh, um...
I guess a hard-working guy who was trapped in a bad marriage and stayed in it for his kids until they were growing up and were able to get out themselves and then that's when he got out.
That would probably be his kind of story.
I actually don't know too much about his childhood.
He's never really talked about it.
He defood himself when he was 20 years old.
He just left.
Left his family, didn't give them the next place or anything.
Just up and left, basically, and he's never really talked about it.
So I couldn't really give you the story going back.
But definitely, for the last 20 years, what I said before would be the case.
Right. Now, if he was asked how he ended up in such a bad marriage, what would he say?
He probably would say he made a stupid decision.
Right, right. And that stupid decision, of course, is rather long-lived, right?
I mean, in terms of they met, they dated, they courted, they got engaged, he got married, he had kids, right?
So that stupid decision took place over a couple of years at the very minimum, right?
Yeah, definitely.
I think it was relatively fast, considering kind of the normal progression, but it would still be a couple of years, yeah.
Right, okay. Okay, so he would put it down to, you know, my marriage dice came up snake eyes, so to speak, right?
Yeah, something like that, yeah.
Right. Too bad, you know?
You're hoping for the double sixes, but occasionally you get the snake eyes.
I know that I can use gambling metaphors with you because of your history, so...
Okay, so...
His story would be that he stayed married for the sake of his children, and that...
Then, when his children were older and able to fend for themselves, he got divorced, right?
Yeah, he actually kind of said that when he was going through the divorce, he actually said, you know, I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not, but that's kind of what my thinking was.
So, yeah, that's definitely his story.
Now, of course, the first question that I would ask such a person is, if the precipitating incident was the fact that your children were grown, then, in your mind, then why in reality was the precipitating incident that you were having panic attacks and chest pains and stress-related heart ailments?
Oh, yeah, sure. That's what you pointed out earlier to me.
Yeah, that's definitely the case.
But I guess that's what he said in terms of...
Well, basically, it was over for a very long time, like maybe 10 years, perhaps.
And that was his explanation of kind of when I asked him, you know, why didn't you bloody do this 10 years ago or whatever?
Right, and his story was, I stayed for the sake of the children, right?
Yep. Now, did he ever ask you whether you thought that it was good to be under the care of your mother when you were a child?
No, no, I didn't.
And I'm just sort of, again, not trying to sort of topple your dad's statue, but when we look at this, when someone says, I did it for you, right, the first question to ask is, well, how did you know that's what I wanted?
Yeah. Right?
I mean, if I buy you a car, and then it turns out that you're blind, can I really say that I did it for you?
Yeah, that's true. So people will often say that to us, and again, this is just part of the whole self-protection thing.
This isn't the central thesis, but this is just sort of some supporting stuff, but...
When people say, I did it for you, as I sort of wrote about in the untruth thing, they're trying to create an obligation in you, a sense of guilt and a sense of obligation.
But, of course, it's the old thing, like if I buy my wife for Christmas some sort of kick-ass video card, right?
And say, well, I bought it for you, right?
I mean, she may reasonably ask me why on earth I would think that's what she wanted.
Yeah. So, again, that's just something to be aware of.
When someone says they've done something for you, and it's not what you wanted, then they're not telling you the truth, right?
They're giving you a story. That book justifies themselves, makes them look like a good guy.
Because, of course, he says, well, I sacrificed myself.
But that's not true.
He sacrificed his children.
Yep. So...
The story that you had with regards to your dad or your dad's mythology is that he was protecting you, right?
Yeah. Is that right?
Like, what did he think would happen if there was a divorce?
What were the negative consequences for you that he thought would occur?
I'm not sure.
I guess from his perspective it would have been based on an idea that a family that's together, whether they're actually together or not, That if they appear together,
it would be good rather than, obviously, children are divorced, have problems and stuff, so I guess he would have been basing that reasoning on if they didn't get divorced, it'd be better than if they did.
Okay, so for him, some abstract negative consequences would occur If you, if he divorced your mom when you guys were children.
Yeah. Of course, if he moves out for months of the year, that's not exactly a together family, right?
Yeah, it's the same thing effectively, yeah.
Well, actually, it's even worse.
Because if they divorced, and we're not talking about the 1960s here when my parents divorced, but if they divorced, it would be very likely that he would get joint custody, right?
Possibly. No, that would be the case, right?
Unless she could prove woeful negligence on his part, then they would get joint custody.
Okay, yep, yep, alright.
And what that would mean is that half the time you would not be with your mom.
Okay, yeah, I guess so.
I think in practical terms, if that happened, then I'd probably still have ended up at my mum's for the majority of the time, because the child support system and everything over here is very biased, so he'd probably have to work full-time just to maintain that, but possibly I'd be at his house on weekends or something like that, yeah.
Yeah, so, okay, I mean, I think that's possible, that, of course, because she didn't work, and there's a reason why she never got a job, right?
Because she was anticipating this.
So it certainly could be the case.
But of course, he could find ways to make money without going to construction or dig sites for months of the year, right?
People can be very resourceful when they have to be, right?
So if he had gotten divorced, then you would have had less exposure to this toxic woman that he couldn't stand, right?
Yep, yep, definitely.
So, it certainly wasn't for you that he stayed married to your mom because he wasn't there and you had to spend all your time with your mom.
Yeah. Do you know if there were any affairs?
My dad did have a girlfriend at the time when they went through the divorce.
So, yeah.
I mean, I guess it depends.
I guess it would be an affair in a technicality kind of way because in reality the marriage would have been over kind of 10 years previous.
But, yeah, that was the case.
Although that was kept from me and my brother until after the divorce had gone through.
So, if I understand it correctly, you're saying that your dad was away from a wife he disliked.
And I'm sorry to talk about your parents in this way, but...
So, your thesis, or the family thesis, is that your dad lived like a monk for ten years.
Despite the fact that he was away for months at a time.
Oh, I really...
I have no idea for the first part, but for the last maybe year or two, whatever, I definitely know he did have a girlfriend.
Before that, I have no idea, really.
But it doesn't seem particularly likely, does it?
I'm not sure, really.
If you've ever been to one of these construction sites, it's a fairly male-dominated place.
I do understand what you're saying, but I couldn't...
I don't think I could reasonably make a judgement on that either way with any confidence.
Sure, sure. I mean, and again, this is not, you know, convicting in absentia.
It's just that, I mean, I worked in a mining crew, and it was an all-male environment, but there were towns where you could go in and meet women, right?
So it's not, you know, it's not like you live like a complete monk for the entire time.
So these are just sort of things to think about, right?
The likelihood that a man who...
That a man lives without any sexual contact for eight years when he's got means and opportunity to procure it seems unlikely.
I mean, it's just something to think about because if it has occurred in your family, and you may never know the truth, if it has occurred in your family and it's never been openly discussed, then that is going to make your perception of romantic relations or sexual relations somewhat less, it's like somewhat jaded, right?
Yeah, definitely.
So, your dad leaves your mom, and he leaves your mom because she's so toxic that she's killing him, right?
Yeah. And then, within a year, you hit your depression, right?
Yeah, about a year, I guess.
I can't really remember the exact time, but it would be probably a year, plus or minus three months.
Right, okay. And how long between your dad getting the diagnosis from the doctors and him leaving your mom, what was the time frame?
A couple of weeks probably.
Maybe two weeks. Pretty much immediate, right?
Yeah. So he made the decision immediately.
Yeah. And I would submit...
That that action completely detonated the mythology of your dad, about your dad, for you.
Okay. But what happened was, you know, we get depressed often when we have two contradictory thoughts that cannot be resolved.
And what happens is we have a belief about our parents.
My dad is a good guy.
You know, he's trapped in a bad man.
My dad is a good guy.
And what happens is, and my dad loves me, and my dad does his best, you know, and my dad makes mistakes, but he's got good intentions, he's good at heart, or whatever.
We have this story that is inflicted on us.
It's what our parents believe. And then what happens is life begins to accumulate evidence against that story.
And what happens is, at some point, enough evidence accumulates that the story becomes unsustainable.
Okay. And when the story becomes unsustainable, then we have the unstoppable force hitting the immovable object.
Alright, yep, that makes sense.
And then we collapse.
So, I mean, I had this story that my brother loved me and this and that, right?
But then after a series of pretty rancid betrayals in business, I could no longer sustain that mythology.
Yeah. Now, I also...
Because that mythology was, for me, reality, I was stuck in a very difficult place.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is that I need to act, but reality is contradictory.
It's like two people with equal power over me are both screaming at me at the same time, go north and go south.
Okay, yeah. And so what happens, of course, is we simply curl up into a ball and do nothing.
Yeah, that definitely rings true.
And this is not just our reaction.
This is the reaction of all animals, right?
Certainly all mammals, right?
I mean, if you give contradictory biofeedback to a mouse, it will simply stop moving, right?
Yeah. So, my guess is that when your dad acted so swiftly to protect himself from the toxicity of your mom, Then the fundamental, the foundational lie of your parents that your dad said that he was trapped in a bad marriage collapsed, right? Yep.
I mean, if you can make a decision, I mean, he decided immediately and it took a week or two to implement the details, right?
Yep.
So he wasn't trapped.
Okay, yeah, that does make a lot of sense.
Not trapped. Not trapped at all.
Could have done this at any time, and as you said, you said to your dad, why didn't you bloody well do this years ago, right?
Yeah. Now, he had to change his story, right?
Because his story could no longer be, well, I was trapped.
Because he had just proven that he could get out of this trap in a heartbeat.
Yeah. So now, he had to come up with another story, right?
Yeah. His first cover was blown.
I was trapped! And now, he had to come up with another cover.
And what was his next story?
That he was doing it for my brother and I. Mm-hmm.
Right. Right.
Right. So, from him being a helpless victim of a bad marriage, he then became the noble hero who was trying to protect his children.
Yeah. From negative consequences, right?
Yeah.
Now, why is that thesis or that story completely unbelievable, given the circumstances?
And this is a tough one, so...
Sorry, go ahead. I think perhaps of what you ran over before about...
The consequences of him getting a divorce would probably have resulted in me spending less time with my mother rather than as much time as I did.
That's certainly partly the case, though I would go for something a little bit more direct.
Okay, what would that be?
His solution to the problem of your mother's toxicity for himself was what?
To get out.
Right. So, for himself, self-protection is not seeing your mother, right?
Yep. But how did he define protection for you?
Leaving me with her.
Right. Right. Do you see how chillingly manipulative that is, that story?
Yeah, it's pretty absurd when I look at it like that.
Right, for me, he says, for me, the solution to being poisoned is to stop eating the poison.
But for you, for many years, the solution to being poisoned was to eat more of the poison.
Wow, that's, yeah, I feel stupid for not being able to say that.
Thank you.
Well, of course you couldn't, right?
Right, of course you couldn't.
None of us can see this without help.
None of us. I couldn't, as you've heard on the other listener conversations.
Don't feel stupid. Nobody can see this without help.
We can't solve these problems alone.
Yep. So, I would say that two things occurred when your dad left your mom.
Two major things, right, that would precipitate depression in any sane human being.
Number one, you became fully aware that your dad's story about his marriage was a complete lie.
Because he proved that he was not trapped.
That he could act decisively in a matter of days.
To protect himself, right?
Yeah. So, you got that your dad had lied, and I use the word lied somewhat loosely here, but let's just go with it for the sake of your experience of it as a child particularly.
Yep. That your dad had lied about why he was in the marriage, and also that your dad fully understood how to protect himself.
In other words, how toxic your mom was.
Yeah. Yeah. And then, what you saw was that your dad made up another story.
Thus, sacrificing you on two levels, right?
One, by making up this story called, I Only Did It to Protect You, he sacrificed you on two levels.
The first is that he completely rejected the possibility of examining how you had been hurt by your mother, given that he knew how toxic she was and had a doctor's report to confirm it.
He completely rejected the possibility of examining or exploring how you were hurt by your mother.
And secondly, he showed you that he just makes up whatever shit he can get away with to make himself feel better at your expense.
Yeah, okay. - Okay.
And that's what your true self or your unconscious got about your dad, right?
Yep. But at the same time, there's this insistent and omnipresent mythology about your dad, right?
Yeah.
And the two are completely irreconcilable.
Well, that...
It does...
does resonate with me in a big way that theory yeah and so what do you feel?
I'm not sure. I kind of do feel that you've probably hit the nail on the head fundamentally, but it's all still kind of spinning around in me.
I guess I feel slightly confused about it, although I think I completely understand it, how you presented it.
It definitely makes me look at the entire situation in a different way.
There are, in many ways, and this is an oversimplistic way of looking at it, but I think it could be helpful right now.
There are two kinds of people in the world.
There are the kinds of people who are so elementally screwed up, and I swear to God, in the future they will be looked at as batshit crazy, who can hold...
Two contradictory thoughts in their head without batting an eyelid.
Have you read 1984, by chance?
No, I haven't. You should definitely read it.
Yeah, I will. It's on my list.
Yeah, after all my books.
And the reason for that, of course, is that they say, well, we're always at war with this country.
And then the very next day, they have decided to be allies of this country and to be at war with another country.
And they change the whole story within society.
Yeah. And there are people who can do that, who can change their entire story.
Their personality is so fluid and empty and manipulative and self-serving that they can simply change their story and not bat an eyelid.
There's no continuity, as we were talking about with that Buddhist guy who was on the chat window, right?
There's no continuity in their processing of reality, right?
Yeah. So your dad can go from, I was a victim of a bad marriage, which is a false story, to, I was not a victim of a bad marriage, but I stayed in it for my kids.
He can make that transition with no seeming discomfort at all, right?
Yeah. And of course, that places the discomfort and the confusion and the craziness on everyone else.
So that's one type of person who can just switch stories, change directions, move to another dimension with no problem, no seeming problem at all.
And then there are the other type of people who, at times it seems unfortunately, but in general fortunately, can't do that.
So, when your dad switched stories, it didn't slow him down at all, right?
Yeah. But when your dad switched stories and manipulated you and you saw that, you saw how swiftly he moved to protect himself and then did nothing to help you and then claimed that everything he did was to protect you?
But that's vile!
But you are one of the people, the second type of person, Who can't shrug that off.
Who's not insane.
You can't be given a mad and exploitive contradiction, fundamentally, and just go, okay.
Right? I mean, out of nowhere, like metaphorically, the finger of God plunges into our foreheads and says, you are not a soul that can live with contradiction.
And you are, God knows how, right?
One of those people.
You can't bear contradiction.
Now, it certainly has been my experience, which is not to say proven, it's just my experience, it certainly has been my experience that people who lack empathy for others also lack empathy for themselves.
And people who lack empathy for themselves are not troubled by contradiction.
But people who have empathy for others and people who have empathy for themselves are highly disturbed by contradiction.
Especially manipulative exploitive and self-serving contradictions.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And unconsciously, you got that you were being completely manipulated and that what happened when you were a child was happening again.
again, that you were being thrown to the dingoes for the sake of your dad's immediate self-justifications.
When your dad left your mom, Thank you.
The story that he came up with was exactly the same, fundamentally, as him leaving you with your mom.
But now, you were old enough and free enough to actually see it at some level.
And so all those years of being sacrificed to your mom for the sake of your dad's immediate self-gratification came flooding back.
The trigger was the repetition of your dad's behavior.
Okay.
You sound less than convinced, which is perfectly fine, of course, right?
Because I could be wrong. No, I'm completely convinced.
I'm just, I guess, in a state of shock, really.
It's only, you know, it's been less than 24 hours since kind of the whole mythology about my dad.
You kind of shattered it.
So, yeah, I'm still...
I'm trying to absorb it, I think.
Your dad kind of shattered it, right?
You pointed it out to me.
Yeah, you pointed it out to me, at least at a conscious level.
Yeah, I mean, just to be precise, right?
I mean, if I say that the bridge has fallen down, I haven't made the bridge fall down.
Yeah. Oh, you've made it conscious for me, at least.
Right. And the reason that I wanted to give you this, right, was obviously I know that you're a very smart and very robust fellow, but the reason that I wanted to give you this this morning was so that there's a...
This is not a final answer.
You know, I mean, this may not even be the answer, but it certainly is part of the answer.
And I wanted you to be able to frame...
Your experiences of the past while in terms of your depression and your paralysis.
I wanted to give you a way of looking at it that conforms with the evidence and becomes somewhat comprehensible, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
Because isn't it a relief to not feel that you were just struck down by some bizarre malady?
Definitely. I've been kind of looking for an explanation to it for quite a while without any kind of progress to that.
So this is definitely a huge help in that regard and definitely a big relief, I guess, that I'm not just playing crazy.
No, no, you're not crazy.
In fact, I would strongly suggest that the reason you got depressed is because you're sane.
Yeah. It's nice to think about like that.
Well, it's healthy, right?
Yeah. I mean, the people who feel the pain, the people who actually experience the symptoms...
And like the sane ones, right?
I mean, if you've got an infected tooth, it's the person who's got a healthy nervous system who feels it, right?
I mean, the guy who's a leper who can't feel any of his nerves, he can't feel it, right?
So it's actually health that causes pain.
And the last thing that I would say about your depression is that it's also a test of other people.
Okay, can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Well, the thesis that your father provided you was that he sacrificed his own happiness for the sake of your health, for the sake of your needs, right? So he stayed in an unhappy marriage for the Yep.
Because he didn't have the theory that you would be physically injured if there was a divorce.
He thought that you would be psychologically injured, right?
Yep. Yeah, definitely.
So, when your dad puts forward a thesis that says, I will sacrifice my own happiness for the sake of your mental health, right...
The next thing that happens is your mental health goes through, to put it mildly, a bit of a stumbling block, right?
Yeah.
And what is your dad's reaction?
Um...
Um...
I'm not sure he would say.
He was definitely kind of concerned at the time.
I'm not sure.
given what you've told me now that that could have been guilt-driven rather than a genuine kind of concern.
Yeah, actually I can't think of too strong a reaction that came from him.
Well, and certainly your dad, as we've talked about last night, your dad is...
A very intelligent man.
And since he himself had a diagnosis of imminent death based on his proximity to your mother, making that connection would be relatively easy, right?
Yeah. And this is not...
I mean, nobody's asking him to learn ancient Aramaic, right?
Yeah. This is like, well, I was struck down, and now my son is struck down.
And the two things in common are proximity to the mom, right?
Yep. Now, if your dad were to step up and say, well, the first and most obvious place to look is the toxicity of your mother because it almost killed me, then that would cause him to feel what?
A lot of guilt for leaving me in that situation.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Your dad would then have to confront his own dark side, his own capacity to exploit...
The helpless, right? Yeah.
So, the thesis that your dad put forward was that I will endure a decade of sexless misery for the sake of your mental health.
I will sacrifice a decade of my life to stay with a woman I loathe, all for the sake of my precious son's mental health.
So the depression is about the most efficient test that you can come up with to find out whether your dad's thesis is true.
Could you quickly run over that again?
I'm sorry, it didn't quite click for me.
Sure, no problem, no problem.
If... A woman claims to love me and says, I would swim overseas, I would climb over mountains to do anything for you.
And I say, can you pick up my dry cleaning?
And she says, no.
That doesn't really fit, right?
Right. So if your dad says, I will endure...
Any amount of discomfort and personal agony in order to ensure my son's mental health but does not do everything conceivably possible to help you when you become depressed then clearly his thesis is false that he would endure any personal discomfort for the sake of his children's mental health.
Okay, yep, that's a lot clearer.
So, in a sense, right, the depression is also partly a test of your father's thesis, right?
So, early on when you and I were communicating through email, you said that nobody had connected your depression with your childhood, right?
Yeah. Your father, when he told you that he stayed with your mom to improve your mental health, clearly understood that childhood experiences shape our mental health, right? Yep.
Because he said, when you were a child, I stayed with your mom so you'd be mentally healthy.
So he perfectly and clearly understands in that story, in that statement, that childhood experiences have a direct effect on mental health, right?
Yep. But then, when your mental health becomes compromised, does he mention anything about your childhood?
No, he didn't.
Do you see how that is a complete contradiction of his thesis, that he stayed with your mom to give you a more stable and happy childhood for the sake of your mental health?
Yeah.
So when your dad acted so decisively to protect himself and then lied to you about why he was doing what he was doing and then failed to present any evidence that would be uncomfortable for him, what occurred for you is an extraordinary what occurred for you is an extraordinary feeling of not being loved.
In fact, of being used.
Okay, yep.
Okay.
Thank you.
And because this was not able to be raised into consciousness for you, it became chronic and paralyzed, right?
Yeah. Because it was unimaginable.
The thesis was reality.
The mythology was reality, right?
Yeah. Like, I don't think that gravity is a mythology, right?
It just is what it is.
Yeah. And this is, I think, why you were drawn to Free Domain Radio, right?
It was because here was a foundational challenge to mythology, right?
Yeah. And you're like, geez, I need the big picture here so that I can see the story, which at the moment, it's totally surrounding me like physics.
Yeah. It took me quite a while to...
It definitely wasn't my first stop.
I spent months looking at depression related sites and stuff like that and I could find absolutely nothing to connect with.
It was definitely lucky that I eventually stumbled across FDR for this.
And you may, in fact, if these go out as podcasts, you may want to revisit some of those sites and post these podcasts, right?
Because this can be helpful for people who are suffering from depression.
Yeah, definitely. Depression is knowing that a story is false, but not being able to differentiate it as a story, which then erupts as a kind of lethargy, because you don't know what is reality, but also there is a...
A paranoia, a fear, right?
Because there is a danger, but you can't identify.
There's an invisible lion in the room, and so there's paralysis, because you don't know where to go, and there's also fear, right?
Because there's predators around that you can't identify.
Yeah. So, you can think of this as the shaking of the philosophical talcum powder in the room, so you can see the lion, right?
Yeah. How about the freedom in radio?
Talcum for the lions in your brain.
That should be clear to everyone, I think.
Yeah. Wow.
I can't believe you were able to explain that to me in 40 minutes when I've been looking for the answer for two years and I couldn't find it.
Well, it's a freaky ability, I agree.
I'm just glad I was never tempted to use it for the priesthood, right?
Because, I mean, if a philosopher can do this, I mean, with the truth, imagine what priests can do with mythology, right?
So, I agree.
It is a completely freaky ability that I have.
And, you know, hopefully I can use it for the power of good.
And this is, of course, why I ended up leaving my career, because as far as what the world needs, it's stuff like this, rather than another piece of good...
Nay, excellent software coding.
So I appreciate, look, I mean, it has an enormous amount to do with your openness and your honesty, right, as far as that goes.
So I mean, this is a conversation, right?
I mean, there's nothing that I can do without your participation, which I know is not easy, right?
And this is entirely disorienting stuff, right?
Yeah. This is like trying to navigate the world when gravity has reversed and everything has changed color, right?
I mean, it's disorienting, right?
Yeah, it's very kind of confusing and definitely disorienting like that.
Have you seen the movie The Matrix?
Yeah. Yeah, okay, so you know that bit.
I very vividly remember this the first time that I saw it in the theaters.
The bit where Keanu Reeves character, Neo, he pops out of this pod and he's bald and he's got these things attached to him and then he goes down that chute into the goop and so on, right?
And I just remember watching that at the time and saying, what the hell is going on?
Like, what kind of freaky-ass drugs did they take?
And what the hell is going on? I was completely disoriented, right?
Yeah. And, of course, it makes sense in hindsight, and it certainly makes sense when you see it again, right?
Which is why the fact that these conversations are recorded and available not just to you, but to others, is so essential.
Because the disorientation that you feel is much alleviated.
By seeing the progression of the questions when you get to hear it again, right?
So the movie The Matrix makes a whole lot more sense the second time around, and that's why, you know, therapy is fleeting, right?
I mean, and this isn't therapy, this is philosophy, right?
But therapy is fleeting. And these conversations come and go, and what you end up without a permanent record is the impression that something was true, but you can't exactly remember what, right?
But with this, you have a record of the progression of questions, which can be a way of, through repetition, we can start to see these patterns a lot more clearly.
So, I mean, it's great that we have this technology and all that now.
Yeah. Yeah, it's excellent.
Okay. Are there any other questions you wanted?
Anything else that you wanted to talk about?
Or have I just given you another egg to fry for breakfast?
No, that's excellent.
Thank you very much.
Oh, you're welcome. And thanks again for your participation and, of course, your generosity in sharing this because I think this is such a common problem for people that I think that together we can take a good sword swing to knock back some of the darkness of the world.
I hope so. All right.
Well, thanks so much. Stay in touch, eh?
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