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Nov. 27, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:49:45

923 The Ricky Sandwich Part 1: Stef, Ricky and RTR

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	Hey, thanks for having this call with me.
	I really appreciate it. No problem.
	I've just been thinking about your FDR. Why system fail, Ricky?
	You know what? That was given to me from a friend.
	It was in a newspaper article.
	It was a headline. It was actually a pretty sad story.
	A young kid who basically was neglected by his parents ended up passing away because of the neglection.
	The article was about how the state didn't step in and save the kid.
	That was the headline.
	It was pretty sad, so I cut that out.
	So yeah, the Jungle Drums are telling me that you were not a massive fan of 920 in other than the most abstract manner.
	Yeah, not a big fan at first.
	I've listened to it quite a few times, actually.
	Because whenever one of your podcasts strike that big of a chord with me, in a positive or negative way, I usually give it a re-listen to see what comes up.
	And I gotta admit, the first two times, pretty upset.
	And... There's, I don't know, lots of, it's pretty dynamic as far as the emotions went.
	It wasn't just anger or being upset.
	There's some frustration involved, a little bit of everything.
	I'm sure some other people can identify with that.
	But I listened to it today again when I got up, and I started having quite a bit different reaction.
	Not, like, maybe...
	More like homicidal rage?
	No, no, I'm glad that didn't get worse.
	Actually, it was... Me too.
	It was actually a pretty big reduction in my angst about it, which I thought was interesting, too, and I think I... I think the responses from the people last night who were kind enough to go into more detail about their feelings and talking about that, I think that kind of settled in with me as I went to bed last night and woke up.
	But yeah, I do have some criticisms.
	There's probably, I don't know, maybe like a 50% reduction in My qualms with it.
	But I would like to explore it a little bit more with you.
	I think a lot of people actually would.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	The way that might be the most helpful way to approach it would be, I mean, it's up to you, of course.
	But let's take the standpoint that I was a total dickhead for putting this podcast out.
	No, seriously. Like, let's just say Steph fell off the dickhead bandwagon big time on 920, right?
	So without wanting to sort of spare my feelings or, you know, hedge your concerns, just give me the rant, you know?
	Like, you know, just let it rip.
	And, I mean, I'm not made of glass.
	Don't worry about that. And let's just go with, you know, that I've been a total dick and have, like, spat on people who are trying to help me and have been petty and annoying and not used and not followed any of my own principles and all that.
	So maybe you can give me that speech.
	Okay, I'll try not to break your heart.
	No, I'm just kidding. No, at first, yeah.
	At first, it comes off...
	I mean, you are the person who really introduced curiosity to me.
	And you've been an excellent example of it all the time, especially on the boards and with your YouTube posters.
	And... My first reaction to the podcast was, where's the curiosity?
	Because I didn't see you post anything about or ask people why the response was so low.
	I didn't see any initial curiosity for the podcast and your opinions about what you took as people being fearful of being in the conversation or going out in the public.
	Talking about this stuff.
	Or living their values. Because it seemed like you started from the premise of not buying t-shirts equals not living your values.
	Or the what next people.
	Because you do start out the podcast with this is just my opinion.
	This is for the people who want to know what's next.
	Who defood, etc.
	And I wondered, I mean, the first thing that came to mind for me was the t-shirts are an avenue for the end result, which the end result would be going out there and sharing this stuff.
	And I felt like...
	If that's the crux of it, the actual sharing of it, then the t-shirts being one avenue of many.
	And it seemed like you were very focused on that one avenue.
	And since that one avenue wasn't being readily taken up so quickly, because it's only been a week or so, that people weren't doing what they claim to want to be doing.
	And I can understand that.
	It seemed like a pretty narrow viewpoint to me at first and kind of still does.
	I'm not sure. I could give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's just the thing you were talking about at the moment, but I'm not entirely sure.
	But the problem is you do give a buffer in the beginning, but then later on in the podcast you do say...
	That you're sure that there's a lot of stories for not buying the t-shirts, but you don't buy them.
	So it kind of...
	I don't know if that's right to say that you're negating the opinion buffer or the I'm sure that this doesn't apply to everyone thing.
	I'm not sure if that negates that completely, but it feels like it does.
	And you really did come across like you are 100% certain that the majority of the 300 who or so that visited the t-shirt thing were not living their values based on the fact that they weren't buying t-shirts and that's how you knew that, you know, that's what they were avoiding.
	I'm not so sure about the email sharing.
	I remember seeing the board post about that.
	I don't know. I can't really...
	I don't have anyone's email.
	I think I email like five people.
	But I can't identify with that too much.
	I don't know if Greg was just...
	I don't remember you or Greg saying anything about scouring the internet or phishing for emails.
	That I don't know how to do.
	I thought it was more or less share your email inbox.
	Sorry, that part was from a while back.
	Was it? Okay. One person did offer to do it, but then never did it.
	I even created a video for that person saying, here's how to do it, and then they just never did it.
	And that's neither here nor there, because if you don't remember it, maybe you never saw that post.
	But anyway, go on. Yeah, I didn't.
	So that's probably pointless to get into.
	But yeah, the main thing was the t-shirt ranting from you.
	And you talk about the t-shirts as being like an open, honest, wearing your heart on your sleeve kind of thing.
	That that kind of exposure was not possible before the t-shirts were even available.
	Which, I mean, if you tell your boss that you're going to be at work at 8 o'clock in the morning, And that's the crux of it, is being on time and honoring that agreement, then how you get there really isn't important.
	And I think this is what it is.
	Freedom Main Radio and where it's taken a lot of us, especially the Whatnexters, because I'll consider myself a Whatnexter, for sure.
	I definitely am one of those people who would like to take it to a sharing kind of level.
	It seemed like Your estimation of the t-shirts not being bought and the fact that people were scared of that kind of exposure or that kind of vulnerability,
	I have a hard time seeing that as, I mean, for the people who have defood and have lost, you know, Have lost the majority of people in their life or that social comfort because, you know, I doubt a lot of those friendships were genuine anyway.
	But it's still rough.
	It's still tough. And I think that in itself is a hundred times more brave and courageous than if they did have...
	I don't know.
	I see that as negating...
	A fear of being vulnerable because they didn't wear a t-shirt.
	I would argue that someone who has the food, assuming that the circumstances called for it, and have gotten rid of the bad people in their life, I would say that the vulnerability that it took to do that,
	The courage that it took surmounts any type of postulation that them not buying t-shirts means that they're not living their values.
	Because I would say that the t-shirts is more of a preference.
	And it's a great, great way to do it.
	And I'd encourage it totally.
	But I do think it's a preference.
	And I agree with you that it's a...
	That it's a very simple thing.
	It doesn't take a lot of effort to wear a t-shirt that talks about something you do love.
	Which brings me to the next thing where, since FDR is so important and it is so amazing, completely amazing, I would imagine that You would want to have done the best job possible for creating something that is striking, that is memorable, that will generate conversation if people were to see it.
	And I don't feel like that was done because I'd imagine since the end result of wearing the t-shirt is to generate curiosity from other people and to generate conversation.
	I would say that the most important thing about the t-shirt is making it a great way to advertise, is making a great t-shirt, something that is not just a kick out in Freedom Wing radio text or a little logo.
	I think I just didn't see them as being even close to resembling something that would Yeah, it might be recognizable for people who have seen FDR on the internet,
	but I would imagine the main purpose would be to strike a chord with the people inclined to notice something that has to do with Personal freedom or liberty or that kind of stuff.
	Or people who don't know about Freedom Main Radio.
	So I thought that criticizing people for not buying t-shirts when the t-shirts didn't seem to be well done And saying that this is, you know, the most important conversation on earth, I thought that was a contradiction of sorts, or it didn't make sense.
	But, yeah, it was mostly just, I felt a lack of curiosity from you.
	And I did feel, I did have a personal...
	I did feel personally targeted, because you did quote me.
	Well, you were. I mean, that's the feeling, right?
	Right, right. And so, I would have liked if I was asked...
	I don't mind that you published it.
	I don't feel embarrassed or anything.
	I do feel like, as a friend, that I would have been at least asked my...
	My feelings on why I was being pedantic about the logo or, you know, being bitchy about it.
	Well, sorry. That's assuming that you were being pedantic and bitchy rather than me being a jerk, right?
	So let's not...
	We haven't come to that conclusion yet, right?
	Right, right. But, you know, it could be both and it could be just me and it could be just you.
	But I definitely wanted to explore the ego identification that you had talked about in another podcast with your teeth.
	And, you know, the shirts being about you and that kind of stuff.
	So I definitely don't—I'm not ruling out that possibility.
	I don't feel—I've never felt a— I do run my mouth about it quite often, and I do bring it up in kind of silly ways, even when it doesn't call for it with people that I do meet.
	And I do get rejection a lot from it.
	But I do enjoy it, and I didn't feel like the t-shirts were a prerequisite to that.
	I feel like an exception to the podcast.
	I was targeted as someone who was bitching about the logo or saying that it was lame or even that it reminds me of the United Way, which it does.
	I really have a problem with that.
	To be honest, I hate the United Way, and every time I see it, I think that's what I'm putting out is I'm a United Way supporter.
	Right, right. But yeah, it was mostly the curiosity from your part, and I felt like some of your premises were off.
	I certainly think that you are right, and it's possible to be right.
	Obviously, some people on the board do have a problem with, or did have some angst with...
	With wearing Freedom Aid radio on their sleeve, so to speak.
	So, you know, you definitely are right in some ways.
	But not buying a t-shirt as a rule, as being...
	Fearful of that, I don't think is alright.
	So you feel it was maybe sort of more of a defensive story that I had up, you know, that people aren't buying something that I'm offering, so I'm going to start criticizing them at a sort of fundamental level, rather than to say, guys, I'm hurt that you're not buying my t-shirts, is that what you mean?
	No. Kind of, yeah.
	I do think once the t-shirts were put out, it only took five days of low sales to make you...
	Like one person bought.
	Right, right. I would imagine that since you did have people asking for them and people didn't buy them, I do wonder why the...
	I think it's quite possible that the complaining about the way it looks could be a defense mechanism.
	I'm not sure that's the rule.
	But I would think that, like I said earlier, that you would be making...
	Since the end result is to generate attention, that you would be making something that's...
	I mean, you have enough people on the board with a lot of great talent to come up with some really remarkable stuff, and that does take time, but I would imagine that the people who do say, I'd rather wait for something that really strikes a chord Seems like there was some effort put into it.
	I still feel like that's a legit...
	A legit response to it.
	Okay, I'm sorry. I'm just going to call you back in one second.
	I just have to switch computers.
	This one's almost out of space.
	Oh, no problem.
	So I'll call you back in just one sec, okay?
	No problem. Just hang up on your side.
	My screen's gone down. Thanks.
	Okay. Oh, no problem.
	Yeah, so I mean, if I understand this correctly, and I don't want to...
	I'm not trying to paraphrase. I just want to make sure I got the points down that you were talking about.
	You feel... You felt mad at me because you felt, and I can certainly understand why, and I wouldn't contradict your feelings in a million years, that you felt that I put these t-shirts out there, got mad at people for not buying them, and then lashed out at them using a moral argument in a sense, or at least some sort of argument around integrity.
	And was not curious about the reasons as to why people weren't buying the t-shirts.
	So instead of being a good marketer and saying, well, why is it that people aren't buying the t-shirts?
	Instead, what I did was chastise them for not living with a certain kind of integrity.
	And that was kind of insulting because if the issue is...
	That people are successfully pursuing sharing this conversation in other ways than nagging at them about t-shirts, which as you say is just one avenue, is pretty sort of close-minded.
	And as you say, it was a very narrow focus.
	And also, if there is an issue of quality around the T-shirts or the logo or the text or whatever, then getting mad at people for not buying T-shirts when the T-shirts are of substandard quality or low quality is not productive, right? then getting mad at people for not buying T-shirts when
	So you feel that it was a lack of curiosity that drove me to sort of lash out, which is very much against what it is that I put forward as decent or reasonable or productive behavior.
	Does that sort of make sense?
	You're 100%. Yeah, you got it.
	So, obviously, there's the risk.
	There is still the risk, obviously, that I'm completely wrong and still being defensive.
	So, you know, bear with me as I try and hack through the issues and see what is going on.
	Now, if I'm wrong, like if I'm being defensive...
	Sorry, if I'm not wrong, then I'm not being defensive.
	That's fair, right? Either...
	Well, do you...
	I mean, I'm not saying I am right, but if I was right about the reason why people aren't buying the t-shirts, then it still may not be the best way to handle it, but it's not exactly the same as being defensive, because being defensive is kind of being wrong, right? Well, did you mean that it was just your opinion, like in the beginning of the podcast, or is it like an objective, like UPB kind of thing?
	It's certainly not a scientifically proven fact as to why I can't do brain scans of people.
	Right, right. I understand that.
	But I mean, is it more like an objective sense, like a moral argument should be, or is it still in the realm of opinion for you?
	I mean, because if you're going to put the wrong and right label on it, then it's not so much opinion.
	You know what I mean? Yeah, well, it's certainly like if some girl doesn't call you back...
	And you say, well, I guess I was just too sexy for her.
	Which happens often.
	Then clearly that would be wrong, right?
	Okay, I understand. But if you say, well, I think I came on too strong, and then if some friend of yours asks her and she says, well, I think he came on too strong, you're accurate with regards to what she's saying.
	It's not UPB accurate, but it's like that is a seagull, not an anvil accurate.
	Yeah, I understand. Okay.
	Okay, and again, but if I was right, because one of the things for the proposition that Steph's being defensive is that I have to be wrong, right?
	I mean, because if I'm right, then there's no point.
	Like, I don't show a whole lot of curiosity about whether Hitler was a good guy, right?
	Right. So curiosity is important when you are projecting and when you're being defensive.
	It's a way of putting down that This is the way that I would approach trying to evaluate whether or not I'm being defensive.
	So, the sequence from my side is that, oh gosh, as long as a year ago, dozens of people have asked, if not more, for a free domain radio paraphernalia, right?
	Now, we certainly have gone through a whole sequence.
	I don't think you've even been around for some of them.
	A whole series of logo designs and all this kind of stuff.
	And I never liked any of them, right?
	I mean, the one that we found...
	With the world and the eye.
	I mean, that I like.
	I'm sure that...
	I don't know if there is another logo out there that's like it.
	Maybe there is. But it has certain things that we've talked about on the board that I like and other people didn't seem to dislike hugely and some of them also did like it and we tried different color schemes and we tried different variations of it and so on, none of which worked particularly and some of which started to get rather lurid like, you know, Freedom in Radio, this diseased eye is your gateway to truth or something.
	So we have taken a large number of swings at the logo and there does tend to be You know, what we need is a dripping pentagram of anarchism, you know, or something like where you have the A. Right, right. And blood dripping and people want these really edgy, angry, goes well with nine piercings t-shirts.
	Yeah, I agree with that too. A little false advertising, right?
	Because that's not what the show is about.
	Exactly, not at all. Giddy idiot in a car, right?
	So to me, we've gone through the mill and I've spent days trying to find good logos and I've had people contact me through email.
	We've gone back and forth with at least half a dozen people on a variety of logos.
	You know, at some point you've just got to act, right?
	I mean, I couldn't find anything that I liked better than this one.
	Does that mean it's the perfect and final logo?
	Well, no. I mean, the website goes through changes too.
	So for me, it was a very lengthy process that led to getting this logo.
	And it is now...
	Everywhere that I put FDR up and RSS feeds, it is in there, pretty widely distributed.
	It may not be perfect, but of course logos never are, different things to different people.
	So after about over a year of off and on having a logo project and having, I guess, picked one a couple of months ago, That had sort of quieted down, if that makes sense.
	So the logo was what the logo was, and there weren't people who were coming and saying, I can't stand that logo.
	If one had said that, then we'd have started searching again.
	But it's either that or spend $10,000 to get a logo design company to do something for you.
	And they're going to hire graphics designers very similar to the half dozen or so who gave me strong efforts for the logo that I sort of worked with over the last...
	and none of which were even close.
	Bridges spanning things.
	Nice, nothing wrong with them, but just never got the show.
	I thought this was community, the world, all this kind of thing.
	Individual egos, but together in the world.
	It just kind of worked in some ways and it also had a kind of gentleness to it that the podcast is rough enough without having a...
	Yeah, I see what you mean.
	Having an angry...
	The show needs to be presented as something that is not violent, that is not...
	I mean, just because otherwise, not only do we frighten people off, but the people we don't frighten off, I'm not sure that we want to come to the website.
	Yeah, exactly. Having just been an anarchist cookbook, now I want to come and listen to a podcast.
	Yeah. So, I mean, for me, the logo isn't...
	I know that for some people, and obviously for you, the logo is like, well, Steph just grabbed a logo and...
	And just went with it, right?
	But that really wasn't the process from my side.
	Like, to be totally honest with you, it was a long and grueling process, most of which occurred off the board, but some of which occurred on the board of people submitting and saying, well, maybe we could try this, or maybe we could try that.
	And it just never got anything that worked, at least for me.
	So then I spent, I think, a day and a half trawling all of the conceivable design sets I could find on the internet, and then finally bought one that had not been bought by anyone else.
	So it just, you know, had something that I could live with at least for the time being.
	Now, is that the final one?
	Who knows, right? If you look at Coca-Cola's logo from early in the company's, it doesn't look anything like the one today, or at least it doesn't look a huge amount like it.
	So it can change, but, you know, there's a kind of good enough, right?
	I mean, as you've seen from the, if you watch the Perfectionism video or listen to it, right, there's, you know, you've got to, your life is short and you've got to move at some point, right?
	So I could start opening up the whole Let's do another five days on logos thing, but that's five days of podcasts and articles and outreach and all this kind of stuff and videos that I can't get done, right?
	So that's just the balancing act that you have to have.
	So from that standpoint, there was a lot of thought and energy and time that did go into the logos.
	Greg and I, if we ever feel like boring the pants off, people will release that as a podcast.
	Spent hours up here on the salon weekend trying to brainstorm to find out good quotes.
	And it just seems to be almost impossible.
	I mean, every quote you come up with doesn't capture the conversation.
	The one that is the closest in terms of evoking the most...
	Accurate description is one that has been around since very early on in the podcast about taking the red pill versus the blue pill.
	So that's what we sort of went with.
	And then we also wanted to make sure that people could put their own text in if they wanted something else.
	So we worked pretty hard to try and get that to be as customizable as possible, if that makes sense.
	So if people said, well, I don't like that tagline, then it's about individualism, right?
	So you can make up your own and so on.
	So I'm...
	It may not be a great logo.
	It may not be the best logo, but with the time investment and resources that we have, it's certainly by far the best that I could come up with.
	Again, I did quote out some logo design services, but they're pretty expensive.
	You still don't know if you're going to get the right thing at the end.
	That was sort of a bird in the hand.
	It was worth two in the bush. That doesn't answer whether it's high quality or low quality, but it does sort of answer, you know, was it just like, oh, fuck it, just grab a logo, you know, just push something out there for the hell of it, right?
	No, I appreciate that, because I did think that was more of a, screw it, let's just get something.
	Right, right, there's a paint splat, let's go with that.
	Now, to move more towards where you were coming from, this was my thought process with regards to you, right?
	So this is specifically you, and this is where I'm a total jerk if I'm wrong, so don't hold back, obviously, if I am, right?
	Okay. Do you remember what you were wearing when you came up and we went for the barbecue and we went to breakfast at Chorus?
	Totally. I totally remember.
	Perhaps you could describe this to the fine listeners.
	I had a t-shirt. Let's see, the logo on it, which I actually had never even really noticed before.
	It kind of just looked like sketchy artwork.
	And we're in line, and stuff happens, like staring at my shirt, and I look down.
	And the only thing that was kind of apparent on it from a distance was like a skull.
	And as we...
	Further investigated the shirt.
	There was guns, needles, knives, snakes.
	I mean, it was like, it was everything, every symbolic thing of being evil and terrible and negative.
	It was an old t-shirt, it was faded, and I think it had holes around the collar.
	It's not actually an old t-shirt.
	It's actually one of those reproduction old looking t-shirts.
	Right, right. It looked like something that had been drawn like graphite on paper.
	It looked like a very sort of lead pencil kind of drawing.
	Right, it was very light.
	It wasn't apparent.
	It wasn't like a bold kind of look at these guns kind of thing.
	Yeah. But yeah, it had a worn look to it.
	It looked like a t-shirt that, you know, if you were a dad, that your 15-year-old son in a fit of nihilism might have jotted down, right?
	Oh, for sure, yeah. It had a very worn, old look to it.
	Right. So this was my perception of what was quality for you, right?
	That was sort of the t-shirts that I'd seen you wearing, right?
	Plural or... I don't have...
	No, no, that's a unique t-shirt as far as my wardrobe.
	I wouldn't argue against the fact that I wore clothing that was very, like, I don't know, punkish, kind of lame.
	No, no, not lame, but it's just you like the grunge look, at least at that point, right?
	Yeah, right. And so, yeah, I had earrings and that kind of stuff, so I... So yeah, the wardrobe, I guess, went with that kind of shirt, but that shirt was a bit, as far as, you know, that was a bit much.
	I don't have any other shirts like that one, but at the time I didn't.
	But yeah, that was, yeah.
	You were also wearing, and pardon my ancient ignorance, but you were also wearing what looked like some sort of pajama bottoms?
	Yeah, I have plaid shorts.
	Yeah, they're plaid, and I guess they do resemble pajama shorts.
	They look like they just come with a cup of cocoa and bunny slippers or something, right?
	I wish they did, but no.
	I know you've prepped up a little bit since then, so this is not your choice of clothing or anything like that.
	It's just that when you talk about the quality of your apparel...
	Can you see that, from me having had direct experience of your apparel, it doesn't follow logically?
	What do you mean?
	When you're saying that the FDR t-shirt is not of high enough quality, It doesn't quite follow, just for me, right?
	And again, this may be my ancient 41-year-old brain, but it doesn't quite follow from the choices of clothing that I've seen you in that you would say these 100% cotton, finely woven Egyptian cotton t-shirts are not of high enough quality.
	Okay, I see what you mean.
	I would say you have a point.
	Yeah. I'm not trying to disprove your thesis.
	I'm just trying to tell you what my experience is of...
	It's like me saying to you, I don't like your haircut.
	Right, right, right.
	And with our conversation that we had in Toronto, I think...
	See, right now I feel that since the main goal of the FDR t-shirts is to...
	Is to generate conversation and especially kind of be the spokesperson when you're not out with a megaphone shouting things about personal freedom.
	I think quality, that should be the judgment for quality because I don't know if you can compare Normal civilian clothes.
	I know your argument with having a neutral look, so when you're giving out a message that it doesn't conflict with what you're putting out.
	I understand that, but I think that the quality aspect for the FDR shirts is going to be more judged more based on the actual end result, which is Getting a message across from people who are just looking at you in random places.
	Right, okay, and I'm so sorry to be annoying.
	I just got a call from someone else. I forgot to set myself to invisible.
	I'll call you back in one sec. Okay, no problem.
	Hi, sorry about that. I'll keep doing that every time I feel that you're about to win a point.
	Oh, no problem. So...
	As far as I understand it, right, so you're saying that the quality of the t-shirts should be relative to the quality of the conversation, not relative to the t-shirts or the clothing as a whole that I saw you wear.
	Yeah, I think the criteria for judging the t-shirts, the FDR t-shirts, isn't...
	I might be missing something, but first thoughts, yeah, I would say that it's...
	The criteria for quality is a little different.
	Now, when did you join the conversation?
	I joined, let's see, around early fall of 2000, or late summer of 2006.
	Right. Do you remember what the website looked like at that point?
	Yeah, it was the blue banner.
	It wasn't the white one, which we had for a while.
	I don't remember the white one, to be honest, because I first found you on YouTube, and I only listened to you on YouTube, and that was about it at first.
	Can you say that the production quality of the YouTube videos is very high?
	Oh, for sure. Yeah, you've got a great camera.
	What's that? The ones in 2006?
	Oh, the ones in 2006?
	Oh, no, back then? No, a lot different than what you have now.
	Right, and that obviously didn't matter too, too much to you, right?
	No, no, it didn't.
	Okay, and again, I'm just sort of trying to, you know, if you'd been somebody who joined like really recently when I have the great mic and the great camera and the time to do it properly and all that, but when I'm just sort of slamming together stuff in my car, you were interested in the conversation even though clearly this is a guy yelling in a car on his way to work, right? Yeah, yeah.
	So, and again, I'm not trying to turn you out.
	I'm just saying from my perspective, because I know you've been around for a long time.
	I thought you'd been around even with the ugly white website.
	But even if you come in through YouTube, that's even better in a way, because those videos are ugly as sin.
	The camera's shaking.
	Half the time, my microphone is around my neck, and you've got to crank it up to the point where I'm yelling in your ear and stuff, right?
	Yes. You were not put off by the quality of the appearance, but were, I guess, enamored or whatever by the quality of the content, right?
	Yeah, I would say that because of my history with Ayn Rand and objectivism, since you, I think I remember there being something about, like there's an objectivism tag in it, So that definitely sparked my curiosity enough to get through one of your YouTube videos to be impressed, yeah.
	To grit my teeth and make it all the way through.
	Yeah, yeah. So clearly, there was no logo back then.
	I was not using a webcam and a car, right?
	And a bad microphone.
	So all I'm saying is that for you, the conversation worked beautifully with no quality in the presentations.
	Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, little quality in the package, yeah, for sure.
	Oh, yeah. I mean, that's got to be one of the worst videos out there, the stuff that's in my car, right?
	Yeah. And, of course, things are a lot better now.
	Production quality is up, and audio quality is up, and, of course, the bandwidth that I can afford now and the cheapness of it means that I can put the higher quality audio out and so on.
	So I'm just, again, I'm just trying to sort of...
	This is sort of the way that I'm thinking, right?
	So, rightly or wrongly, like, I know who you are, and I met you, and I think you're a fantastic guy.
	I really do. And so, when I'm sort of putting together the criticisms that you have, saying the t-shirts aren't of high enough quality, when the stuff you wear is not high quality, and also you got into the conversation hook-like and sinker when the quality of everything was way lower than it is now.
	So that's hard for me.
	And again, this could be my story, but it's hard for me to put that together, if that makes any sense.
	Right, right. No, I see what you mean.
	Coming from me, it might not be the best criticism.
	Would it be different if it was coming from somebody who didn't have that kind of past?
	If someone who...
	I don't know, but let's just stay with you and I, right?
	We'll deal with the others later.
	So that's sort of hard for me to sort of piece together, right?
	And so I felt, and you knew that I knew all of this, right?
	I mean, I'm not saying, every day saying, ooh, you know, what does Steph know about me or anything, but...
	But you knew that I knew all about this.
	I also know that you've been wanting to talk to me for quite some time about your problem with appearances.
	Yes. Right.
	So I viewed this a little bit more as, Steph, I really do need to talk about this thing about appearances.
	Yes. And yeah, you're right.
	It's not just my own...
	Do you also mean my problems with other people's?
	Well, you're a designer for physical beauty, right?
	Yes. I mean, for me, these two things in you are not unrelated.
	I can agree with that.
	I don't think they are either.
	Okay, okay, good.
	So anyway, we put these t-shirts out and we sort of looked for a long time to find the right place that has really good quality t-shirts because a lot of them that are out there are pretty crappy, right?
	Right. And, you know, we put the logo together.
	We sort of mentioned we asked people for taglines a little while back, and nobody can come up with any yet.
	I mean, maybe some marketing genius will sail through and set us all straight.
	So we put all this stuff together, and then with some fanfare, we put them out, right?
	Okay. To a great indifference.
	Now, it's not an indifference, right?
	Because the people came to the website.
	Hundreds of people came to the website to have a look at the T-shirts.
	And then they got stopped by something.
	Yes, yes they did. It's not that they didn't want t-shirts, because otherwise we wouldn't have had any hits, right?
	Also, people wouldn't have said for a year, we want t-shirts.
	Right. So people came to the store, and they then, they got stopped.
	Now, did they get stopped because there was a logo?
	Well, no, because that logo's been around for months, right?
	Did they get stopped because it says the logic of personal and political liberty?
	I don't think so because that's been the tagline since day one.
	Did they get stopped because on the back of the t-shirt it says take the red pill and then we tried to get something that looked like both a pill and a suppository because I think the suppository is actually more accurate.
	I don't think they got stopped by that, because if they did, they could have seen, well, I can just put my own quote in, right?
	Right, right. Did they get stopped because the t-shirts aren't of high enough quality?
	Well, no. Did they get stopped because of the price?
	I don't think so, because we're only taking a buck off of that, which we're going to put towards buying a better URL from this place.
	So my question was, what I was sort of trying to understand, is that people are thundering over there, looking at these t-shirts, And then they're getting stopped, like they're not taking that next step.
	Now, it can't be because there's anything particularly surprising or shocking about the t-shirts, right?
	Right. It can't be because they're too expensive, right?
	It can't be all of the sort of typical reasons that you would expect.
	It has to be something else.
	Yeah. Does it matter that, or to you anyway, that maybe not every one of those people who came even had the set intention of buying one, but mostly just looking?
	Well sure, I understand that for sure.
	Not everyone, some people of course went over there out of curiosity.
	And of course you don't expect when 200 people go that you're going to sell 200 t-shirts.
	You expect 5,000.
	No, you just know that there's going to be 50% of people who are just there for shits and giggles or whatever, right?
	But when one person buys, then you know that something else is going on.
	Just from my perspective, again, this could be my total mythology, but I know for sure that people are going over to there and then they're getting stalled.
	Now, if they're getting stalled...
	For a reason that is reasonable, if that makes sense, then what they'll say is, they'll come back and give feedback, right?
	But when people are going to go and do something that they've asked for and then they don't come back and give you any reasonable reason as to why they haven't bought, then you know it's something they're not that proud of.
	And people saying that they didn't like the logo and the text and whatnot isn't reasonable.
	Well, that is the logo, right?
	Now, if you love a band, right, and you don't like the band's logo hugely, does that mean you're never going to buy it?
	I mean, to me, that would be kind of shallow, right?
	Like, if you love a band, but you think the logo's kind of gay, you're still going to wear the t-shirt, right?
	Actually, I would say no.
	I mean, I've passed over bands.
	I love t-shirts because they were horrible.
	Personally, I have.
	Yeah, in my case.
	That's fair enough, and we'll come back to the shallow side of things a little later.
	Yeah. It's kind of been a surprise that the Free Domain Radio logo was on the Free Domain Radio t-shirt.
	Do you understand what I mean? Like, if somebody said, I just, I just, I hate that fucking logo.
	I mean, that logo, it's like somebody poking me in the eye with a blood spear or something like that.
	Then they just wouldn't go to the website, right?
	Because they know that the logo is on the t-shirts.
	Well, I would say, what do you mean?
	They wouldn't go to the website? Well, it would seem unlikely.
	Like, if you just hate the logo, then it seems unlikely that you're going to...
	Again, it's less likely that you'll go to look at a t-shirt when you know that you're not going to buy it.
	You hate the logo. Like, why would you waste the time?
	I don't know if that's like a...
	I can see that being interpreted like that, but I think the curiosity kind of outweighs any preconceptions of just because you don't like the logo.
	I mean, I didn't like the logo.
	I thought it was horrible. And I still wanted to look at the shirts to see what was available.
	Right, okay. But you could assume that if everybody hated the logo and cared so much about this conversation, So if people say, well, that logo just doesn't capture this conversation to the point where I'm not going to put it on my body, then you'd think, given that this logo is everywhere now, that people would have told me more about that when it comes to the website.
	Some people like the logo, some people didn't like the logo.
	You can't please everyone, right?
	But that logo is everywhere, right?
	So it seems odd that when it comes to putting it on their body, people would kick up a fuss about a logo when they wouldn't when, say, the website was being redesigned or the logo was going out everywhere else or whatever.
	I'm not saying you didn't.
	I know you didn't like the logo because you get the United Way thing from the beginning.
	But, again, it's just sort of my perspective of things, right?
	That the people said, okay, I can live with the logo.
	Some people liked it.
	Some people didn't.
	I would say the majority of people liked it the most of the logos that we had come up with over the last year or maybe a little bit later than a year.
	So it can't be that the logo that most people have approved of through the conversation or at least haven't said, oh, my God, you put that goddamn thing on the website?
	It's a virus, get rid of it, or whatever, right?
	It can't be that suddenly they see it on a t-shirt and it becomes abhorrent to them.
	Does that make sense? Right, I see what you're saying.
	It's because there's a kind of ego identification with themselves in the logo, and not so much it just being a Something on the website?
	Well, what I'm saying is that, and let's just say you personally, right?
	If you were like, this logo fucks this whole thing up so much, I won't even put it on my body, right?
	And because I care so much about the FDR conversation, then why wouldn't you make more of a fuss about it going on the website and everywhere else?
	I did at first when you first picked it out.
	I think you remember I... I said something about it.
	I mean, I didn't care so much.
	I honestly don't care that much about the logo as far as what it is.
	It is frustrating because of what it reminds me of.
	That's really frustrating for me.
	You actually tried to find this logo from the United Way.
	You didn't have any luck. Is that right?
	We found ones that were...
	I don't know, because when I mentioned it looks like the United Way...
	A lot of people said, yeah, it does.
	And then when I went to look, the United Way logo is a bit different, but there were ones that were associated with it, like Habitat for Humanity, that had that same three people with little eyes and holding hands kind of thing.
	So yeah, it is weird that the United Way logo isn't like a facsimile of it, but it is, for some reason, just kept reminding me of the United Way.
	Right. If people come to the Free Domain Radio website, they're going to see that logo, right?
	So even if you were to write up your own Ricky Von Ricky business card with Free Domain Radio and no logo, right?
	Because you hate the logo so much.
	Right. The thing that people are going to see when they come to the website you're telling them about is the logo, right?
	So whether they see it on your t-shirt or whether you drive them to the website in some other manner, they're going to get their eyes poked out with that logo no matter what, right?
	Right. Well...
	Eyes poked out. I don't know about that.
	If you say, I can't stand this website, sorry, I can't stand this logo to the point where I won't wear it on my body, then that's, and you're saying that it's not due to the quality of t-shirts regards to you, but with regards to the conversation.
	But with regards to the conversation, first people, first thing people are going to see anyway is the logo.
	Right? So, again, I'm just, like, in my own mind, this was sort of my reasoning pattern, right?
	It's like, If people hate the logo, it's right there on the website, right?
	No matter what to do, if they tell people, if they tattoo it on their forehead, if they, you know, whatever, they sky-write it, first thing people are going to do is come and see the logo, right?
	Yeah, I wouldn't say that, like...
	I know what you mean, that because, like, when I say that, I don't...
	I see what you're getting at.
	I'm getting, like, a better understanding of...
	Of it because when I say I don't want to wear it because I think it's low quality, I'm making a judgment for other people as well.
	Well no, it's that it's on the website anyway.
	So let's say that we had no logo and a t-shirt that you love and people went to the website and there was no logo on the t-shirt, they're going to see the logo anyway, whether it's on your body.
	Or on the website. So if they're the kind of person...
	Like if you say, this logo will diminish the Free Domain Radio conversation, right?
	Right. Well, does it matter if it's on your t-shirt or on the website?
	No, no. I don't think...
	You're right. It doesn't matter. I don't think I ever said that, other than it being ugly, I don't think I ever said it would deter people.
	I did give my own opinion that I didn't like looking at it.
	Well, you did say that the quality of the t-shirts was not up to the standard of the conversation, if I understood that rightly?
	Yeah, I expressed that in the sense that I think it was...
	I don't think there was a lot of effort put into the creative aspect of it.
	The striking or...
	I mean, like...
	Good advertisement should be.
	It didn't seem very...
	And I know you said you put a lot of effort into it.
	So, yeah, of course they can evolve, become better over time like the rest of the website has.
	Well, sorry. Let me just sort of explain to you what I mean.
	Okay. So, if...
	If you show a picture, let's go to shallow Ricky, right?
	So if you show a picture, if someone shows you a picture of a girl and she's like four miles a bad road, right?
	Just not a doctor.
	And then she says, well, I want you to go out with her, but don't judge her by the photo, right?
	Okay. You're not going to say, well, I'm sure she's really good looking in person then, right?
	Probably not. Right now, whether when you and I have that chat, whether you'll end up going out with her, I don't know, but...
	But, um, whether, like, if you're gonna meet the girl, the picture means something, right?
	And if you don't like the picture, then you're probably not gonna like the portrait, and then you're not gonna like the look of the person, right?
	Right. Right, so, um, if the logo is negative to the conversation as a whole, then it doesn't matter whether it's on your body or on the website.
	Like, if you're handing out a picture of an ugly girl, then the shallow guys aren't gonna want to go out with her, right?
	Oh... Alright, I see what you're getting at.
	Right, so the issue is not so much the logo, it's the logo and you.
	Right. The logo, more specifically, on you.
	Yes. That doesn't mean that the logo...
	I'm not trying to make you believe that the logo is great.
	You can hate the logo until you draw your last breath.
	I mean, that's fine with me. I'm just trying to sort of step you through what my thinking was prior to the podcast, right?
	Which doesn't mean that it's right, and this is sort of where I was coming from, right?
	No, no, I don't think you're wrong either.
	I never said that it doesn't apply to me 100%.
	I do want to talk to you more about that.
	I could be wrong, right?
	That's what I mean. I don't think that I'm wrong, but what the hell I've been wrong for, even when I've been certain of things, right?
	So... So that was sort of my issue, right?
	That a whole bunch of people came to like saying, Steph, for God's sakes, give us t-shirts or we're going to kill her firstborn or something like that, right?
	And yes, they say okay to the logo and so on, right?
	And then you come to the website and then it's like, come on!
	You know, everything comes to a crashing halt, right?
	Right. And so, of course, you say that there was no curiosity, but I don't think that's the case because...
	I did ask on the...
	I mean, I didn't sort of sit there and say, why aren't you bastards buying the t-shirts?
	Because I didn't know.
	But I was monitoring the board very closely for responses to the t-shirts.
	Right? So people said, well, we want hoodies.
	Okay, we'll give you hoodies. People said, well, I'd like a different color.
	Let's give you different colors. I'd like to be able to put my own text on.
	Great. We'll get you the ability to put your own text on, right?
	Right. And then what happened?
	Didn't affect too much.
	Nobody bought any t-shirts?
	Right. Then I know that people are not being honest with me.
	Right. I do wonder though, because the entire criticism of the not buying the t-shirts went as far as not being in the conversation or not living your values.
	No, it wasn't so much, sorry, and God help me if you quote me back and I'm wrong, but what I remember of the podcast is more that you can live the conversation in your own life just for you, right?
	And that doesn't mean you're not talking to people and so on, right?
	But there's something else entirely about going out there and being proactive in the world about the conversation, right?
	Right. Getting off our asses and going out into the world, right?
	So it wasn't so much... I wasn't saying you all are hypocrites, right?
	What I was saying is that this is a scary next step, right?
	And we need to talk about it.
	And the way that I know that people need to talk about it is they're feeding me all this stuff about the t-shirts, right?
	Because they're saying, well, if the t-shirts are like this, we'll buy them.
	Okay, they're like this. Nothing, right?
	Okay. Well, if we get more colors, we'll buy them.
	Okay, here are more colors.
	Right? Nothing happens, right?
	So then I know that people are resistant to buying the t-shirts.
	And it's got nothing to do with the logo.
	And it's got nothing to do with the type of fabric.
	And it's got nothing to do with whether it's got a drawstring in the hoodie or five G-strings come with every baseball cap.
	I know. I just know.
	And this not because I wasn't curious and not because I didn't ask people questions, right?
	But I just knew that it was something else.
	And it couldn't be because people really didn't like this conversation.
	Because... They're here, right?
	They're on Podcast 920.
	I know that you all love this conversation, right?
	And so I also know that I'm being fed a whole load of malarkey about why people aren't buying the t-shirts.
	So everyone's coming and then they're getting stopped.
	And then I say, well, how come?
	And they give me all these answers and then we conform to those answers and they still don't buy.
	And then they give us more answers and we conform to those answers and they still don't buy.
	So I just know.
	I mean, that has to be that there's something else that's going on that people aren't proud of, that they want to get somewhere, but they're kind of stuck.
	Now, can it be that, like, at least with myself, I wouldn't say that you're incorrect with, you know, that I have issues in regards to shallowness and stuff like that.
	Or at all. Don't you?
	With myself, I wouldn't say that you're wrong in that respect.
	That could be where a lot of my anger or upsetness came from, but there are also other implications in the podcast about the t-shirt thing.
	It was more or less not buying the t-shirt equals not Living your values if you're a what's next person.
	No, no. And again, I'm sorry.
	I'm totally sorry if I came across that way.
	And I don't mean that in any kind of way.
	Well, I think you did come across that way.
	And I didn't...
	I felt weird giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't come across that way.
	Because it was so...
	You know, I could be wrong.
	I could be... I could be wrong too.
	But... That when you say that because...
	People are getting stopped by a logo or their aesthetic preference or whatever that you want me to feel this conversation is unimportant.
	That's what you said. You want me to feel this conversation is unimportant.
	I thought that was a really, really big stretch.
	Like I said, I can have this problem with shallowness and it could be coming out because of the t-shirts.
	That could be a factor.
	But to stretch it to this conversation is unimportant.
	I remember that, and I will stick by that, although I could, again, be completely talking out of my armpit, right?
	But what I mean by that is if some girl says, oh, Ricky, you are the best guy ever.
	Like, you are just the most fantastic, sexiest mofo on the planet, right?
	Okay. And you say, great, let's go for dinner.
	dinner and she says no I kind of have to grab my bathroom well then I wouldn't take what she said very seriously Thank you.
	Right. And so you'd ask her, well, can you get someone else to grab your bathroom?
	And then she'd say, well, no, I have to, you know, I've got this, I've got to clean out my shoe closet down in the basement.
	Whatever, right? I mean, she just comes up with stuff as to why.
	Or she says, well, you know, if you part your hair on the left, I'll definitely want to go out with you.
	Right.
	I mean, I see what you mean.
	At the end of that conversation.
	As far as the t-shirt preference goes, I'm sure that with the way I dressed before, you wouldn't prefer someone that you liked or that you wanted to date to You know, wear something revealing or, you know, be slutty in some respects.
	And that is a preference in a lot of ways, but it shows something.
	But what I mean though is in terms of the not buying the t-shirts equals this, I still feel like it's a preference for somebody to want to wear an FDR t-shirt without it having any implications.
	It can have implications, and I think it does in my personal life.
	But I don't think the implications can be stretched as far as thinking the conversation is unimportant.
	Because if before the t-shirts were available, and...
	If the end result was talking about FDR and bringing people into the conversation, then is that not possible?
	I mean, I certainly felt like I was doing that long before the t-shirts were even available.
	And now that they're available because I didn't jump on it, or I had some problem with it aesthetically, that it cancels out everything I've done before that.
	Well, no, I mean, that's why I'm not saying that everybody has been, you know, quavering before a cliff edge for a year, right?
	And of course I have huge respect, and I did say that to the people who've donated and have worked with all this respect for what people have done before.
	But, let me ask you these questions then, if you don't mind.
	Yes. How many people have you brought into the conversation?
	Um, that have decided to actually post and stuff?
	Well, who've stayed and donated.
	Who stayed and donated? I would say none.
	And that's...
	Well, tell me what you think of that.
	But that's...
	That doesn't make sense to me because the t-shirt thing doesn't always mean you're going to ever...
	I mean, I could wear a t-shirt every day with FDR on it for the rest of my life and it doesn't mean I'm going to bring someone in who...
	It absolutely means that.
	Why? Well, it's just a matter of...
	I mean, you probably don't know this, right?
	Because you've not been a sales and marketing guy, but this is just a numbers game, right?
	All forms of advertising is just a numbers game, right?
	So there's a reason why people show the same two ads during 60 minutes for six months, right?
	Because repetition is all that matters.
	The first time somebody sees an ad...
	They don't even remember it. Second time, maybe they remember the color of the logo if you quiz them deeply or something, right?
	It takes 10 to 15 impressions for somebody to remember anything.
	Right. But you just said earlier that, I mean, this is the exact quote that one in a thousand people might respond to the conversation, might have any inkling to do anything with it.
	One in a thousand. Exactly.
	That's why exposure is so important.
	You said that you've been working to get people into the conversation.
	You said, I have five people in my email list, right?
	Right. But it doesn't...
	I don't think that has to do with...
	I mean, the fact whether you have somebody who is talking to 20 people a week about it or somebody who's talking to hundreds, I don't...
	I mean, other than one person being more productive in that sense, I don't think...
	You can imply that one is more less courageous or brave than the other one because they're not pursuing it in the same exact manner.
	Well, but there are plenty of times, obviously, where you're not talking about freedom in radio, right?
	Oh, yeah. Where for some mysterious reason other topics become more important.
	Don't ask me how that could happen.
	I'm just kidding, right? But there will be plenty of times where you're just walking...
	Down the street, right? Right.
	And with a t-shirt on, you're doing something productive to the conversation, right?
	And if you don't have the t-shirt on, then you're not.
	Well.
	I mean, it's just, I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, say that you've got to wait 24-7.
	God knows I'd like to, but what I'm saying is that If all other things being equal, this is icing on the cake, right?
	Wearing an FDR t-shirt?
	Sure. Yeah, I think it's a very simple thing to do.
	I think it's a great thing to do.
	I still think it's preference though.
	But this doesn't mean that talking to people is now worthless.
	That's a false dichotomy, right?
	So you're trying to put me into this place where it's like, oh, so if you're not wearing a t-shirt, you're doing nothing?
	And that's not what I'm saying, right?
	But in the podcast, I mean, you gave that kind of equation, that not buying t-shirts...
	I never said that the only way you can help FDR is to buy a t-shirt, because otherwise, why would I be asking for emails?
	Or why would I be helping people with conversations that they're having with other people in their lives?
	Yeah, that's fine.
	I understand that, but that's not how you put it in the podcast.
	So, in the podcast, and I'll listen to this if I have to, in the podcast I said, the only thing you can do for the conversation is to wear a t-shirt, not buy a book or have conversations with people or give me your email addresses or anything like that.
	The only thing that you can do for the conversation is to wear a t-shirt and anything else is completely futile.
	No, you didn't have to say that, though.
	I don't think. I mean, I could be wrong, but when you say that...
	When you say that when 300 people don't go to the...
	Oh, you're back.
	Sorry. I just lost the audio for a sec.
	Go ahead. I think you put it in a kind of equation form.
	You didn't give all the jargon about covering the bases or anything, but you did say that the fact that the t-shirts were selling that you know, that you want me to know that blah, blah, blah.
	I've never written down.
	That would be a good way of putting it, actually.
	No, I think that's...
	Blah, blah, blah.
	What I do remember saying was something like, since you're not buying the t-shirts, you want me to feel angry and frustrated, and you also want me to feel that the conversation is less important.
	And I know that it's not less important.
	So here we have a paradox to work with, and here's how I'm going to try and work it out, right?
	Yeah, it was...
	Well, I think you said once you get your personal life together and vulnerability and, you know, it's like the what's next kind of thing.
	And then I think you said...
	You said it funny.
	You know... What you know and I know that you know.
	And so the reason that I know you know is you're not buying t-shirts.
	I understand by that.
	And what I'm saying is that there is something that needs to be done that we all know needs to be done.
	And what's been happening so far is that people have been asking me to do it by giving me donations, right?
	And what that is is going out and advertising and communicating openly about this conversation outside this conversation.
	Does that make sense? Yeah.
	I do have a question, though, that I'm not sure on, and I'd like to hear a take.
	What if somebody doesn't What if they have done all those things, they've gotten the bad people out of their life, worked with vulnerability, and they're not really concerned with a what-next.
	What if they've found that happiness?
	I mean, if happiness is the goal and you don't have any positive obligations, of course, what if a person doesn't have a real desire to solicit this stuff?
	What if they're very content and happy with The friends and, you know, the family that they've acquired through it.
	Well, I certainly understand that, and I think that's a great place to be, and I don't have any problems, and I think that people can get to that place and can enjoy that for a while.
	But the problem, as I have said from the very beginning, the challenge with this philosophy, or with philosophy as a whole, is that if you keep studying it, at some point you become an expert.
	And what that means is instead of just reading some books on nutrition, you've now become a nutritionist.
	Right? And certainly by the time people have gotten into the three, four hundreds, they're in that area, right?
	In some respects, yeah.
	And certainly by the time they get higher up than that and have...
	By the time you've touched UBB, I mean, you're toast, right?
	You're completely toast, right?
	And so the difference is that in a world of plague, Somebody cannot study to be a doctor and not work to heal people and be happy in the long run.
	I mean, you can make yourself healthy and you should enjoy that health for a while.
	But in the back of everyone's brain is knowing two things.
	One is that they now know how to heal other people and that the world needs healing.
	And two, that if they don't, the future ain't going to be too pretty.
	I would... I don't know.
	I see what you're saying.
	I don't know if I fully understand the altruism having...
	Well, I do think it is altruistic in one sense to feel because you know something, you have to share it.
	I would say that's altruism.
	I mean, I know you're saying that you're not going to feel happy unless you're doing it, which isn't self-sacrificing, but...
	You can feel happy. You just...
	You know...
	Obviously, as I said, if you could snap your fingers and make the world rational, you'd do it, right?
	Yeah, I'd hope so.
	If you didn't, I'd do it for you.
	So, all other things being equal, you would much rather the world be a healthier and rational place, right?
	Yes. You would be happier in that world, right?
	Even happier. I'm not saying you're unhappy now.
	But you would be happier in that world.
	Oh yeah, it'd be much more enjoyable.
	Right. I mean, you wouldn't be dating crazy elfish women or whatever.
	Yeah. This is the draw you at least used to.
	And of course, you wouldn't be paying any taxation and you would have voluntary DRO associations and you would have had an infinitely better education and you wouldn't have been exposed to religion and there would be no wars.
	I mean, that is a world that we could be pretty happy in.
	Yes, and you're completely right, but I don't think that is enough of a criteria to hint at or imply any positive obligation on people who do know.
	Well, I haven't said anything about positive obligation, though.
	Yeah, but I feel like you imply it When you at least kind of put down the people who aren't going out and doing those things.
	It seems like a positive obligation.
	It's all about choices and consequences, right?
	Like, if you smoke, then you might get cancer, right?
	I mean, just identifying that is not...
	I mean, that's not causing it, right?
	And so, if people, as they do, complain a lot about the state of the world, right?
	And they say, God, I wish the world was more rational.
	I can't believe how irrational people there are.
	I can't believe how many crazy people there are in the world.
	And I can't believe the taxes.
	And do you know George Bush is doing this?
	There's lots of people complaining about...
	The sick people in the world, right?
	And they themselves are doctors.
	That's why I use the AIDS metaphor, right?
	So all I'm saying is that you can't complain if you have the cure and it's too much to wear a t-shirt.
	Then you can't complain about the state of the world.
	I'm not saying there's a positive obligation.
	You can wear nothing if you want, right?
	But if you don't...
	Wear a t-shirt, or as I said, it doesn't have anything to do with FDR t-shirt, whatever it is that you feel is going to make the world healthier, then you can't complain.
	I mean, then it's just silly, right?
	Because then you're complaining that everyone's sick, and you've got the cure, and you're too lazy to hand it out, even if that just means wearing a t-shirt.
	Like, if it's too much work to wear a t-shirt, to spend 10 bucks and to wear a t-shirt, if that's too much work for you, Then clearly the health of the world means less than that to you.
	And again, I don't mean... I mean, that's not mis-ionistic.
	It's like a free domain radio t-shirt will end war.
	But it's something, right?
	Yeah, but it's a very linear way of putting it, too.
	Go on. Well, it's...
	I think it's a bit more dynamic than that.
	When you say that I remember this with the objectivism in Rand stuff, as far as can you measure love?
	And she says that, yeah, you can based on, like if you say you love somebody and they ask you to rub their back or something and you say not right now and you have no real reason, then you love them as much as, you know what I mean, as what you're willing to do.
	You value them as much as you're willing to do.
	I think that's a linear way of putting it.
	I think it does imply some important things, but I don't think it works like that.
	I don't think you can say once the t-shirts come out that if people aren't getting them that I mean, it's like if you put out buttons for 99, you know, for a few pennies.
	It doesn't mean, you know, it's a small thing and it's easy to do.
	You can wear a button at any time of the day, but I wouldn't say that the people who aren't getting them means anything substantial.
	I mean, it can, but it still seems like a linear way of looking at it.
	Well, it's measurable, right?
	I mean, I don't know everybody's mindset, but I do know their actions, right?
	Yeah, I feel like the t-shirts, for a lot of people, is not a step back, but if you're going to put it in a linear way, I think it's much further behind the things that people are doing from FDR. Is that true for you?
	The t-shirt thing? Yeah, I feel...
	I feel the stuff that I've done with philosophy and the changes in my life have been...
	Oh yes, I understand that.
	Sorry, but this is the part of the conversation that libertarians just hate.
	And I did too, right? So I mean, it's when it's no longer just about you, right?
	That's part of the conversation that libertarians...
	And the t-shirts, fundamentally, is about other people.
	It's not about you.
	Right. Right?
	And that's where libertarians feel resentful.
	Because every time in the past where libertarians or anyone has been asked to do something for other people, for a larger cause, it's always been exploitive, right?
	Yeah, I don't know much about libertarians.
	I never even... Like, I was never...
	You know, ask what you can do for your country and, you know, do something for them.
	Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. Every time that you're asked to do something for a collective idea...
	It's exploitive, right? Okay, I see what you mean.
	Yeah, okay.
	You mean do I feel that way?
	No, what I mean is that I think that libertarians reject this kind of collective concept, right?
	And they say, well, you know, because we're asked to cut down our carbon emissions for the sake of the world and we're asked to recycle for the sake of the world and we're asked to serve our country and we're asked to Like, all of this kind of stuff.
	Every time somebody comes up with a positive obligation or any kind of obligation to a collective, it's always about exploiting the individual, right?
	So, you know, be excellent in your job.
	It's always about work for no pay, right?
	Okay, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying, yes.
	So, it's hard for people...
	To listen to somebody saying, it's not about you, it's about others.
	And not hear some sort of horrible religious quagmire, right?
	Or statist quagmire, or some sort of collective thing, right?
	Yeah, I do. We might be on to something right now.
	Because I did have a weird creeped out feeling at some parts of the podcast.
	I know, I know.
	It's a totally sensitive podcast, so go on.
	Yeah, I did. I got a creeped out feeling a few times when it was the save the world talk.
	And I do want the world to be a better place.
	And I thought...
	And I don't know.
	In my head a few times, from what you've talked about before with how the world is going to change...
	And it was always a very personal thing, you know, fix your own life, go for your own happiness, and the rest is going to come together.
	And now it seems like it's a more positive, proactive approach to it, which I'm not sure I have discomfort with because I don't.
	I think it's a good thing, but I still feel it's You're not leaving room for your earlier approach to saving the world.
	Well, but the earlier approach was not about saving the world, it was about saving yourself, right?
	But yeah, which you equated with will change the world.
	Sure. It is what is required to change the world, right?
	Right. Like, you have to be healthy yourself.
	You have to be able to swim before you can go and save people, right?
	So the first thing you've got to do is learn how to swim, if you want to then be a lifeguard or whatever, right?
	Right. And so once you know how to swim and everyone's drowning, once you're aware of the fact that everyone's drowning and you know how to swim, you can't be happy in the long run by just sitting there on the shore going, well, there goes another one down.
	Hey, look, there's another kid drowning.
	Oh, look, there's somebody else drowning over there.
	I think you should explore that further because I think, I mean, with myself, it's an interesting...
	I've never heard that before.
	I've never heard that you can't be happy without...
	Going out there and doing something.
	It's kind of new to me, and I think it's worth, like, if you'd like to, talk about more, because I'm not sure I get the entire implications of it.
	Oh, you get the implications.
	That's why you didn't buy a t-shirt.
	What do you mean? Like, I'm interested now, like, in that.
	Like, what do you mean? The last hour.
	No, I'm just kidding. No, it's...
	Finally. God's sakes, you said something that was interesting.
	No, no, no. Like you said, yeah, I do know.
	But... Okay, let's just go with the emotional side of things, right?
	Because, you know, we've got already enough intellect in this show.
	Okay. So you buy a t-shirt.
	Okay. And it comes in the mail.
	And you put it on.
	And you walk out of your house down the street.
	Very sexy. Are you asking me to play along?
	Yeah, yeah. Picture myself?
	In your mind's eye, you're walking down the street with that logo, like an evil third nipple coming out of the middle of your chest.
	And you're walking down the street of a baseball, launching a personal political liberty, take the red pill, or I took the red pill, or whatever, right?
	And you're walking down the street.
	How do you feel? Okay.
	I'll go ahead and presume it's going to be a busy street.
	Thank you, yes. You're welcome.
	I don't know, I feel okay.
	I feel fine. I never said I wouldn't buy a t-shirt.
	I did bitch about it.
	But how would I feel in my head right now?
	I just called you Bitch Ugly, that's all.
	No, how would I feel?
	Not with you anymore. Sorry, go on.
	I would feel...
	Okay, since it's a new thing, I just got the t-shirt, and it's new.
	I'm not used to it yet. So I would feel anxious in the sense of who's going to notice.
	I guess I would be paying more attention to people's eyes as they pass me to see if they're checking it out.
	Alright, so you line up at Starbucks, and some guy says to you, take the red pill.
	What the hell does that mean? I would tell him that Freedom Aid Radio is a philosophy show, and I'd probably ask him some questions to see exactly where to take the conversation, I guess. And then he says, so what, you're saying that we're all in the Matrix and you guys have the answer?
	Well, why don't you give me one of the answers that helps me out of the Matrix then?
	I would probably...
	I always like using the government doesn't exist metaphor because it's kind of simple to get across and it's kind of a shock for most people.
	And I'd probably give them the...
	What you talked about before about how science is not about the study of the obvious, but it's about what's not obvious, like the sun rotating around the earth and such, things like that.
	And then I'd probably bring it into the realm of philosophy about how philosophy does the same thing, about how a lot of the things that seem obvious aren't quite what they seem to be.
	And how do you feel during the course of that conversation?
	Excited. I would feel pretty excited to be having the conversation.
	Okay. Do you know why I don't believe you?
	Why? Because if somebody said that you can have exciting conversations about philosophy for the price of a $10 t-shirt...
	Are you telling me that the first thing you do is complain about that t-shirt?
	It doesn't, again, I know you believe what you're saying, but it doesn't jive with your actions, if that makes sense.
	I would, I don't know.
	Sorry, what happened to the friends that you tried to, or the people in your life that you tried to get into the conversation?
	One of them is still a podcast listener and lurker, who I talk, you know, with stuff about too.
	He's still Working on stuff.
	I don't really hang out with him, but I do talk to him about stuff when he wants to.
	And my sister, Stacy, has been doing pretty well.
	She listens to the podcast and stuff on the way to work, but she hasn't gotten involved with the board or anything.
	And, you know...
	You have my nephew with it now, so I wanted her to know that since she has a new one coming along that it's important that she know where to go with it.
	But most people that I do talk to about it don't want anything to do with it or they think I'm crazy or something.
	But how do you experience that?
	How do I feel when I experience that?
	Yeah, well, what is your experience of that?
	Like, when people are giving you the thousand-yard stare or you've got foliage coming out of your forehead?
	I don't know. I associate a lot of humor with it, so I've never really gotten sad about it.
	Yeah, you know, honestly, I've never really had a...
	Like, it's a bummer.
	It's disappointing, I won't lie.
	It can be very disappointing, but I don't...
	You know, it's like if somebody didn't believe me that 2 plus 2 equals 4, I wouldn't cry my eyes out or anything.
	And I still have that approach with it because when people don't respond to it kindly or they throw me in the loony category, it doesn't really bother me too much or at all.
	But it's not something that you would seek out, right?
	I mean, is that right? I don't prefer it.
	No, I don't prefer it.
	And again, I'm sorry to be a nitpicking guy, but you said that you would find the conversation with the guy in Starbucks exciting, but that you'd prefer not to seek these things out.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	I mean, I wouldn't seek out the disappointment.
	I wouldn't be like, let's go be disappointed today at people.
	But, I mean, I don't have qualms about that.
	I don't worry so much.
	You've got to remember, with my Jehovah's Witness background, I was knocking on people's doors for a large part of my life as a young kid.
	That can't be a good set of memories.
	No, it wasn't.
	If I put myself back in those shoes, I thought I was doing some amazing, wonderful thing.
	It took a lot of courage to knock on people's doors and mouth off some Bible crap to them.
	You had all the rejection associated with that.
	And again, isn't there a little bit something that's not wildly dissimilar, wearing not a Watchtower t-shirt, but an FDR t-shirt?
	Dissimilar? I mean, there's some similarities, right?
	In that, putting forward a truth that most people would just not believe or would roll their eyes or whatever, right?
	Yeah, right, right. Similar in that sense.
	The funny thing is, though, I would always get yelled at by the people, the They're called elders in the congregation about how I would dress outside of the kingdom.
	Because I would dress very...
	They called it worldly.
	They called the way I dress worldly.
	Like you're trying to look like other people in the world or something.
	And they didn't like that so much.
	But I mean, like...
	Because I did buy...
	I did buy...
	Hello?
	Hello? Sorry, go ahead.
	You cut out for a sec there, but you're back.
	Oh, you know what it is?
	My Logitech thing has a mute button on the wire, and I keep hitting it.
	I'm sorry. No, but I did buy a bunch of on-truth books from you.
	I think I have two left, my own copy and one other, and the others have been given out to people that I still talk to about it.
	A lot of them liked it, and a lot of them I thought it was crazy, crazy, crazy talk.
	And so I'm going to make them give me the book back.
	But yeah, I wouldn't have got those books if I had a fear of talking about philosophy with people.
	I think... Personally, I think that I'm pretty good at communicating it with people that I talk to.
	I usually don't fumble too much with the conversation.
	I can usually talk to them in a pretty curious, open way without striking too many defense mechanisms, but you always end up hitting one of them along the way.
	I don't know. When you give me the analogy about how would I feel if the conversation did arise from the t-shirt, I do still think that I would have an excitement.
	I always have an excitement when I talk to people about philosophy for the first time, which is why I bring it up a lot with people.
	Even when it's not called for, I somehow pull it out of my ass to talk about philosophy because I do love talking about it.
	And I never voice stuff like it's my own opinion.
	I definitely give you the respect of holding the podium in that regard.
	Because you're more than qualified for it.
	Not many people can say they've had 20 years of going over this stuff in their head.
	Yeah, even when you don't want to.
	Right. And so...
	In that sense, I have trouble equating what I've actually done and what I do with the t-shirts and that meaning that canceling out what I've been doing.
	I still have trouble putting the two together because I'm not lying.
	I understand that I have personal appearance problems.
	I've got through the way I dress.
	I certainly dress a lot different than I used to.
	I still have problems with attraction and that kind of thing.
	I do think we're hitting some sore spots with me in this conversation, but I still have weird qualms about the implications that you're making.
	Yeah, I mean my experience with the t-shirt was I'm glad they're out.
	I ordered like, I don't know, I can't remember a hell of a lot because I want to be able to wear them at the gym.
	I want to be able to wear them at the mall and I want to be able to wear them and go for lunch.
	I even want to be able to wear them when I'm out screaming at the sidewalk doing podcasts because I'm really looking forward to people stopping and asking.
	Like I couldn't wait to get my hands on them because I want people to ask me.
	And even if they're not asking me, I want them to see the T-shirt, right?
	Right.
	And so for me, it was just like I don't care.
	Or they could be made of rats feet and...
	Like neon, right?
	As long as it's not too itchy and it'll get people to see the website, right?
	That was my sort of experience of it and I know Greg ordered a bunch of it too and so on, right?
	And that to me is genuine enthusiasm for something, right?
	Right, right. So what you're telling me about what would happen for you when you have the t-shirt on is not the same as your actions, right?
	Now... You mean inaction?
	Yeah, like inaction.
	You were negative about the t-shirts and didn't order any.
	Yeah, I was disappointed.
	I haven't ordered any yet.
	I have to ask you this though.
	Are you slightly a bit worried that people are going to put retarded stuff on the t-shirts that are sporting around FDR? No, I don't.
	I think people have pretty good judgment.
	It certainly could be true that...
	I hope so....my forum or something might put, it's a cult or something like that.
	Right. But people could do that anyway, right?
	I mean, if people are really keen on it.
	All the people that those people know, I don't want them to come to the site anyway.
	Anyway, okay, gotcha.
	No, no, I do want to get a t-shirt.
	I was disappointed in the overall presentation.
	Honestly, it wasn't going to keep me from buying one and wearing one.
	I just bitched about it a little bit because I wasn't as impressed, so to speak.
	But this is part of what I'm trying to get people to understand, and I've had this conversation with a number of other people who've been around for a while.
	Your opinion means a lot.
	I know this is shocking, but your longevity in the conversation and your opinion means a lot.
	You are an elder.
	Yeah, it does make sense.
	I understand what you mean.
	Right, so when you come and you say that basically the t-shirts suck, that has an effect on people.
	That just struck a chord with me, dude.
	I'm telling you. And I had the same conversation, and I'm not even going to go in with who, right?
	But it's the same conversation, right?
	There's a reason that you posted this publicly.
	There's a reason that you didn't send me an email or Greg an email.
	there's a reason that you posted this publicly yeah that struck a big chord with me like right now as far as how I'm feeling at the moment in the moment yeah I'm feeling a lot different right now.
	I don't know. That kind of feels like the culmination of a lot.
	What do you think about the posting it publicly?
	Well, tell me what you feel.
	I think it doesn't matter.
	What are you feeling? Oh, How do I feel about that, or how do I feel at the moment?
	You said you got a feeling.
	Oh, yeah. I feel bad.
	Honestly, I feel bad.
	I do. Now that I have a...
	I feel if I could go back and not do that, I would.
	And... I'm trying to formulate exactly why.
	I feel that just really, really made the whole thing seem like not a big deal at all.
	Like, I mean, the t-shirts not being...
	Like, my whole approach to it being not done well or being...
	Like, that seems like a very...
	Nill reason to bring up like what I had said in the beginning of the conversation about them not being well done and bitching about all that.
	Now that suddenly feels very lame.
	You are, I mean, look, you are one of the better looking people on the board.
	People know that you have a real sense of style, right?
	Right. And people have also seen a picture of your sister, who's not the ugliest slice of white bread in the bin, right?
	Right. And you have a coolness to you.
	I mean, this is just from my observation, right?
	As somebody who couldn't You couldn't pay me enough to get cool attached to me in orbit, right?
	But you have a kind of coolness to you, right?
	I mean, that's my... I mean, right.
	Yes, I do. Why, yes.
	I can't believe it took you this long to mention it.
	But you know what I mean?
	Like you have a kind of hipness to you and so on, right?
	Hello?
	Hey, how's it going? Hey, what's up, Steph?
	I was just wondering if I could pass you for a couple of seconds.
	Sadly, system failed Stefan, and I just lost the last few minutes of our Last conversation.
	Oh, no problem. I didn't want to summarize the conversation saying, as it turned out, I was completely right.
	Ricky was totally wrong about everything.
	Isn't that what happened, though?
	Oh, no. Okay.
	I just wanted to sort of...
	Okay, what did you say?
	Go! But just I'll summarize it as I remember it and then just let me know that...
	We did talk about your history when you were young, and my memory is, and I'm sorry if you did tell me, my memory is that you certainly had talked about your parents' Well, your mother being religious, your father, not so much.
	But as it turned out, you were used as a cult-like advertisement for the Jehovah's Witnesses when you were a kid.
	You had to go door to door, and it was obviously not something you were given much of a choice with.
	And that had some effect on your perception of, can you be advertising for this cult rather than the cult that you were raised in?
	Oh, right. Exactly. No, it had to have.
	Yeah, it was a poster child for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
	I don't know where it got cut off, but part of the drama of me being a kid with that was I would get lectured a lot.
	I would be taken in the back of the Kingdom Hall and get yelled at about the way I would dress outside of the Kingdom Hall.
	Like, I wasn't wearing, you know, a suit and stuff.
	And, uh... You were being worldly?
	Are you addressing any... Yeah, they call it worldly.
	Like, uh...
	And so, um...
	But, yeah, I was forced to go out in service, was what they call it.
	You know, talking to people door to door.
	And, uh... You're basically told if you didn't, then, um...
	Yeah, it wasn't like a choice.
	You had to. You had to.
	Otherwise, you'd be guilt-tripped into it and people wouldn't talk to you.
	Part of what occurred for you was that your clothing in particular was controlled, right?
	Insofar as you had to go out in a little Lord Fauntleroy suit and all that kind of stuff, right?
	The ways in which we are controlled is usually the way in which we rebel.
	And so part of the way that you responded to that, which is perfectly sensible and rational, of course, is like, okay, you can control my clothing here, but I'm going to have a reaction formation called wealthy clothing everywhere else, right?
	Exactly. And that's what kind of blew me away about our conversation, too, is I didn't see it come into that.
	Like, it was in the back of my mind, but I didn't realize...
	I didn't see those dominoes going down in that direction, so it was interesting to make that connection.
	But yeah, the JW history definitely was a sore spot as far as that goes.
	Now, that having been said, there was responsibility on my part, which was a lack of asking you about this, right?
	And so there was...
	I mean, I apologized, of course, for...
	Going further down that road than I should have of assuming...
	And I went to the place of physical vanity rather than childhood trauma, which of course was not fair on my part.
	And if I had been patient and been curious, as you rightly pointed out at the beginning of this conversation, then it would have been less of a difficult transition.
	So, I mean, I certainly remember recognizing that and apologizing for that.
	Was there anything else? I mean, I know we hacked around that topic for a bit, though I think we've summed it up fairly well here.
	But was there anything else that was part of that later bit of the conversation that you wanted to get across?
	I don't know. I think I just...
	I had mentioned that when some of those things were pointed out to me, I had an immediate emotional reaction to it when we were talking.
	I mean, it was instant. It was an instant kind of like humility, an instant kind of regret, and I kind of felt embarrassed that I had reacted the way I did.
	It's amazing, sorry, just by the by.
	Isn't it just amazing, and this is the part that just continually blows my mind about myself and about others, is just how incredibly close to the surface those feelings are.
	Oh yeah, it was kind of weird that, I don't know, it was just instantaneous.
	It just bubbled up out of nowhere, and it hit me, and it was only, you know, it was just as soon as the connections were kind of made.
	And I was telling Greg, I said, it's amazing that It's amazing how many veils are there to be lifted.
	And I said, it seems like the more you progress, the more they get, the more they're transparent sometimes.
	If that makes any sense. Right.
	I mean, people always say, you know, I have a tough time getting in touch with my emotions if they have particular aspects that are tough.
	I have a tough time getting in touch with my emotions to stand the other.
	But usually it's like our emotions are having a tough time getting in touch with us because they are with the right key, with the right understanding.
	And I think that what you and I did is a good example of sort of the real-time relationship insofar as I talked about my experience, you talked about your experience.
	And what we were able to do was to eliminate that which was not relevant.
	Yeah, it's like that Fight Club quote where he says, to truly let go what doesn't matter, or let slide.
	Yeah, and I think we went through, you know, and there was a way that, and this is sort of eliminating the stuff that doesn't really matter and getting to the core of what does.
	You can't actually get to the core of what does matter until you have dealt with what doesn't and understood that it is only a symptom, not a cause.
	Because otherwise, if I'd have said, well, forget about the t-shirts, let's talk about your childhood, you'd have been like, hey, wait a minute, don't pull your psychology stuff with me, man.
	Psycho Kung Fu. No, yeah, I noticed that too, because once I actually got it out, it was like, maybe this stuff isn't so important.
	Kind of in the back of my head, once I vented it, it wasn't like...
	It definitely cleared the way for the real benefit of getting down to the pass, which I am still surprised at how much sense it makes.
	Now, of course, I mean, I really appreciate the time that we took on that conversation.
	I know it was a long one, but to me it was a great example of the kind of stuff that we're working on.
	Did you want to schedule the time to talk about the physical vanity stuff that is an exciting challenge for both of us?
	Yeah, I would love to, actually.
	That would be a great conversation for me.
	I don't know how many other people can identify with that, but it's a challenge to me where I have no clue how to get around it.
	It feels like it's in your nature, almost.
	You know what I mean? I don't see an off switch, and I don't see any switches to make it...
	I don't know. That's a really big challenge.
	I'm eager to get somewhere with it.
	I mean, there's a number of different ways we could do it, right?
	We could hang up and do it now, or we could see if other people would be interested in joining in on that conversation if there are other people who may have the same sort of issues.
	So it's not just the laser on you, so to speak.
	It's however you would feel best about doing it.
	Oh, I don't feel uncomfortable at all just talking with me about it, but if you think other people might want to be on it too, that's completely okay.
	Whatever you think is best.
	And when would you like to do it?
	Anytime is okay with me.
	Okay, well, why don't I hang up and give you a callback?

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