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Nov. 16, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:10:09
913 Youth, History and the Future - A Couple Conversation
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Time Text
Hiya. Good, good.
Okay, so first thing, can I use your real names?
Yeah, yeah, sure. Go ahead.
That's fine. Good. That saves the problem of me saying something and you waiting for somebody else to respond, so that's very good.
Yeah. And us talking in the collective we, so...
Right. Right. Now, just out of curiosity, where are you guys roughly in the podcast cavalcade slash waterfall slash Niagara of Speech?
Well, I'm right at the base of Niagara Falls.
I've gone pretty much all the way through them.
I've just missed out quite a few.
I didn't listen to them exactly like in the numbered order.
I just flicked around, but yeah.
So we're going to deal with lack of commitment.
I'm just kidding. Okay, so that sounds good.
And yourself?
Me. I'm too scared to talk.
Yeah, we've just been dealing with...
If you have a webcam, I'm happy to do hand gestures, or if you have hand puppets...
No, no, we don't have one of those.
That's a lot easier than actually listening to people, because I can just make up what I need then.
That's better. I think...
We've just been talking about our anxiety issues as well.
What is the worst case scenario?
Look, I don't have to use this.
If it ever gets released anywhere, and the only place I think it would ever get released is with the book, you have the right to listen to it, to edit out whatever you want.
So you have complete and total control over this conversation outside of just talking to me.
So don't feel like I'm suddenly going to...
Put this out there on the internet with links to your house.
Email it to our parents' addresses.
Actually, I should have mentioned I will do that.
No, I'm kidding. Don't feel nervous.
It's just a chitchat.
This is just like a frenzied chitchat.
If it works, it works.
If it doesn't, it's just been a nice chat.
Okay. Thank you.
I don't know why I'm so nervous.
Well, is it because I'm so intimidating?
Maybe. Oh, good lord.
If you find me intimidating, could you talk to Christina a little bit?
Because I don't think she finds me intimidating at all.
So maybe you could...
Okay, I'm scared.
It could just be the situation we're in.
We're in my house and there's parents walking around and it feels a bit of a prison right now, so it's like whispering messages before the prison guards walk by.
So maybe you could start off just by telling me a little bit about your relationship as a whole, when you met, how long you've been going out, what your circumstances are.
Me and Tom have been going out for 13 months.
Just over a year.
We met in school. For a few reasons.
Yeah, well, we met in school, and I guess one of the biggest things that attracted me to her was the fact that she was vegan.
We were both kind of socially ostracizing ourselves quite slowly from that, I guess.
And, of course, she helped me become vegan.
I was just vegetarian before, so that helped a lot.
But I guess just turning vegan really shed a lot of light on our friendships.
So it just told us if someone can't even accept that you're vegan, it's just kind of a big indication that they're not going to be open and honest with you as a friend.
So we've basically got to the point now where We spend a lot of time together, but we don't go out that much.
We just have each other, really.
Yeah, we've got each other. Right, which is why you've ended up with a kind of social anxiety about talking to somebody like me, who's not...
I guess so, yeah. Very consistent so far, I like that.
Yeah. Thank you.
And I guess, well, since hearing your podcast actually in the summer, I've been just rifling through them, but Candice hasn't got that much chance to.
No, in my house, my sister really steals the computer loads.
And I mean, I've listened to podcasts and then she'll walk in and she'll be going like, oh my God, what are you on about?
What are you listening to? Just turn it up and then my mum will come in and then she'll start a conversation with me and it's like...
Doesn't that guy ever take a breath?
Doesn't he ever stop? How many podcasts are there?
Is this guy mad? It's better lately, though, because I've just got an MP3 player so I can listen to them on my own.
Nice, nice. Yeah, exactly.
But when we started listening to podcasts, they've become...
I guess sort of a center of conversation.
Yeah, they have. I find time to listen to them.
Kenny just goes on the boards and talks to other people.
We just really got into the whole libertarianism thing quite quickly.
It was in the summer, really, wasn't it?
Yeah, in the summer. It's really fun to talk about, though.
Right, okay. And then you were sort of interested in or succumbed to my come-hither stare about the possibility of this sort of real-time relationship thing in your relationship.
So is that sort of why we're talking?
I guess we're both on the same page as far as that goes?
Well, I guess we haven't quite got that far in talking about the podcast.
We talked about the political part of it, the philosophical bit, but it's the relationship bit we haven't really talked about together.
But we are very open together.
I mean, we do talk about stuff.
We don't keep secrets, really, and we're just honest, share our feelings, and...
Yeah, I guess when I was listening to the podcast on relationships, I was just beaming, because you were saying all of the pitfalls people fall into, and how you should choose someone based on virtue, and it's just something I've learned from my past relationships, and Candice from yours, to just really, really seek out virtue, like a guard dog sniffing out a prisoner.
No, that's good. And one of the things that works out so well with you guys in particular is that when I say virtue in Canada, the word actually means vegan.
Really? No, I'm kidding.
But that's what I think. Every time I use the word virtue, I actually mean vegan.
Okay. Okay, so you guys have been going out for 13 months, and are there any sorts of areas where you have hiccups or communication that hits a sort of confusing or skiddy or rough patch or anything like that, or is everything going completely swimmingly in?
I think when, yeah, I guess our parents are sort of a big block to our relationship.
I mean, particularly when I'm at Candice's house, I mean, like, if there's anyone who just might be listening, then we just can't, like, talk about anything, like, that might...
Yeah, it's literally like being in a prison cell.
But also, I mean, you're pretty certain that you don't like my dad.
Oh yeah, definitely. You hate him, you don't.
I kind of go near him, but I'm struggling to kind of agree with you because I just don't know what to do about my dad.
I mean, I guess because I'm outside the relationship, I'm outside the family, I can just see it straight away.
You know, I can see exactly how this guy acts and he's a complete, you know, he's a bastard.
He's really just this violent ball of rage and depression.
He's just not the kind of guy I'd want in my life.
I just want to Pluck Candice out of there really and elope.
I don't want to say young relative to, say, young people, but you're not in your 30s or whatever.
Are you in your 20s? No, no.
We're both 18.
We're both 17, actually.
17. Okay, good.
I didn't want to go how young.
Okay, so you're fairly young, and you're going to university, college?
Hopefully next year I'm going to university.
Is there a family situation there that makes it more complicated in terms of funding?
Sorry, did you say a family situation?
Yes. Well, for me, the course I want to do, I actually get quite a nice bursary from the National Health Service.
So, actually money from my parents isn't that much of a problem because my course fees and my living costs get covered.
But for Tom, yeah.
There will definitely be a money problem for you in there.
Oh, well, I don't think so.
I mean, like, taking loans and try for scholarships and stuff, I mean, it's not...
I'm not reliant on my parents in that sense.
And, by the way, we've both sort of chosen universities as far away from our parents as possible, really.
Right, University of Bangladesh, if I remember right.
Well, that's great.
So, what is it that you would look to get out of a conversation with me?
I assume that the focus is with your parents and not with each other, right?
Yeah, definitely. So what would be a complete and total success for the conversation that you'd have with me over the next little while?
What would you define as?
If we stop the conversation and you look back and you say, well, that was absolutely perfect, what would you have achieved?
Well, for me, that would be...
Just getting to that, I guess that real-time relationship thing would be great, but at least talking about Candice's dad, because, I mean, there's something very hard, it's just very hard just to get by in that household.
Just every time I go over there, it's so uncomfortable.
I can't talk to them at all, really, apart from the weather.
And when they say anything opinionated, I just shut up.
It's an unchosen positive obligation to talk to them when I see Candice.
Because obviously they live together and, you know, I take their food.
But, I don't know, it's just really...
If you could help us to just exist, I guess.
Just keep our minds and virtues together until we can get out and get to uni.
Because we are applying to more or less the same unis, so we can just escape together and live together.
I guess that would be a real help.
Yeah, I think the main thing for me is that my dad, he really confuses me.
Like, I don't get his behaviour.
It's so mood-swingy.
Sometimes he's so, so nice, and other times he can just be horrible.
And it just really confuses me.
I just don't get if this guy has got a mental health problem or if I should just forgive the bad behaviour and, you know, Get on with him.
I mean, I don't really know what to do, because when I look back to my childhood, and I remember some of the ways he treated my older brother in particular, it was really quite violent.
I mean, I suppose you've said this before, haven't you, Tom?
You wouldn't choose this man as a friend.
The only reason you really want to know him is because he was your parent.
I don't really know where this relationship with him is going.
Okay, well, that's great.
I appreciate that. So perhaps you could tell me a little bit about Candice or Candice?
Candice. Candice?
Yeah. Okay, let me just underline under...
Tell me a little bit about the behavior that your dad has.
Is there physical abuse?
Is there verbal abuse? Since we've got older, he never used to hit us, especially not me or my younger sister.
He's always been really against this idea of hitting women.
It's okay, of course, to speak to them abusively.
With my brother, he was really quite violent.
I mean, he used to kind of really push him around and swear at him and do all these kinds of things that, you know, I mean, Chris was probably only seven or eight, and I know it's just shocking looking back.
Wow, I'm so sorry for that.
That's terrible. Yeah, I mean, and I don't know what to think about my mom either, because generally speaking, I can have a really good relationship with my mom.
Like, she can make me laugh and smile and You know, we can get on.
I mean, we can't really talk about anything major, but I don't know.
I don't know what to think about them, really.
Well, so with your brother that was, you say, pushing around.
Could you talk a little bit more about that?
I think one major event that I remember, I think I was probably about four or five, I don't think my brother had done that much wrong, but sometimes my dad used to try and get my brother to help him with DIY chores and things like that, but my dad used to get really angry if Chris couldn't do something like find the hammer in the shed or just really stupid things.
I remember my dad used to get really angry and swear at him and As a small kid, you just kind of sit there and think, please stop.
This isn't nice. And I remember looking behind the door, and my dad having this really aggressive face.
He used to shout, and when he shouted, it was like, mental.
It was really violent, violent, violent shouting.
And I remember him slamming my brother into the wall.
I just thought it was disgusting.
This did happen on quite a few occasions, but I remember that one was always stuck in my head, really quite...
You know. And my mum, I don't really know what my mum did to stop it.
I don't know if she thought there was much she could do or if she just thought it was the best thing that my dad was doing.
You know, I didn't get it really.
Right, right. Okay.
And as far as the verbal stuff goes, there was screaming, there was swearing, and you said that he was not hitting his daughters or pushing them around.
No. But he would use verbal attacks or put-downs, like stupid...
Yeah, definitely. But he used to do that to all of us.
I mean, he still does on a few occasions.
Sorry to interrupt.
Did he do it to your brother as well?
Did he do it to who? Your mother as well.
Oh God, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Alright, so what sort of scope of verbal abuse and what sort of frequency of verbal abuse are we talking about here?
What do you mean by frequency of verbal abuse?
How often? No, how often?
Like, I mean, if he said, oh, you kids are driving me crazy because you seem stupid once a year?
Oh, no, it would be quite often.
I mean, this is what I mean when I say my dad was mood-swingy.
A bad argument would probably break out.
Well, not an argument. It would just be him shouting, I suppose.
Probably, I'd say at least once every two weeks, once every week or so, yeah.
It was quite a regular occurrence, but, like, It's made me really distant to him and he finds that really upsetting because I'm his eldest daughter and things like that and he wishes he had a good relationship with me but I can't force it,
I can't make myself feel anything but because he wants my love, he wants me to hug him, he wants me to I have a good relationship with him.
It really makes me feel guilty that I just can't bring those emotions out.
I just don't feel it.
No, my God. I mean, if you felt it, it would be incredibly unhealthy.
Probably, yeah. Seriously, what he's saying is, I want you to treat me as if I had never been abusive.
In other words, I want you to pretend that all this would never happen.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, after he'd shout at us or something, he used to come in and try and be friendly.
Say something like, I don't know, jokey, I can't really remember what, but he used to try and make us laugh and stuff, and me and my brother used to sit there and look at each other like, what?
What is this guy doing?
You know, it's just too confusing.
Well, I think I get a fairly clear picture, and I don't want to abbreviate what it is that you're saying.
Yeah, go for it. So, is there anything that you wanted to sort of...
I mean, I think I get a clear picture, which again, could be right, could be wrong, but I don't want to interrupt.
No, say it. Tell me what it is and...
Tell me what it is and...
Sure, sure. Okay.
Well, obviously there is, what you say, this mood swing.
And let me just ask you a question before I give you what it is that I think about this.
Yeah, go for it. Did he do this in public?
Did he hit your brother in public?
No, he'd never do it in public.
Never do it in public?
Did he ever scream at you and call you stupid in public?
No. No, it was definitely all in the house.
Well, then, for sure, it's not a mental illness.
I can tell you that with 150% certainty.
Okay, yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it.
Can I say something as well?
Because we know, sorry to interrupt, we know that he can restrain his anger if he wants to.
Yeah. I mean, in public, he could get angry.
He wouldn't, like, scream us in the same way that he could at home.
I mean, as a small kid, he was terrifying.
Right. I have no doubt.
After a while, if we started to cry in front of him, he'd scream, don't cry.
He'd really, really scream it.
Really shout it. And that just makes you cry even more when you're tiny, you know?
Oh, I know. Yeah. And then you're in a possible situation because your feelings are becoming stronger and stronger.
You're feeling more sadness, anger, and despair.
And I mean, the things he used to shout at you about, it was like pointless.
You'd be thinking, why are you shouting at me?
But you can't get away.
And it's, yeah, it was a really horrible feeling.
Right. So the first thing...
Sorry, the first thing to understand is that when somebody has a genuine mental illness, it is not to their willpower.
You don't sort of yell at somebody who's got Alzheimer's and say, just concentrate.
And they go, oh, okay, sorry, I'll just concentrate.
That's not how it works. If somebody has schizophrenia, you can pay them a billion dollars to not be insane in public, and they won't be able to stop them.
Yeah, I see. But my dad could.
Your dad absolutely, completely and totally could.
And so he was able to manage his temper, to suppress his temper, to control his temper when he was in situations where his own interests would have been threatened through being overtly abusive.
In other words, if there's a policeman standing there, if he turns around and clocks your brother, he's going to jail, right?
So he was always able to control his temper when necessary.
Right, so mental illness has got to go right off the list of things that you're concerned about.
Yeah, definitely. I can really see that now.
Thank you. Useful so far?
Yeah, definitely. I want to make sure that this is going to be useful for you.
I was definitely clear about that.
Now, the other question that you have, which I can sort of feel is difficult for you, is this question of the good dad, bad dad, the nice guy, nasty guy.
Yeah. Well, that's complex and I'll just give you one or two ways of looking at it that can help you understand it.
The cycle of abuse is very much attack followed by reconciliation.
To take it away from a personal situation, the typical situation is a husband He beats his wife or hits his wife and then he goes out and buys flowers and he's crying and this is in, if you've ever seen A Streetcar Named Desire, you can see this, Marlon Brando, it's a great film, but you can see this, like he hits her and then he's, you know, Stella, you know, he's like, he's weeping, I miss you so much.
And so what happens is the power then passes to the abuse victim to forgive and there is a cycle of abuse that is always A rollercoaster.
Always an attack followed by an apology.
But the apology is selfish as well.
It's not, I'm sorry that I hit you.
What your dad is really saying is, I feel bad and you must forgive me.
Yeah, I can see that.
So that's one aspect of the cycle.
Sorry, did you want to say something?
Yeah, I was just going to say, I can really relate to that too.
Because, I mean, the whole forgiveness, like...
You should forgive and you should feel guilty about stuff.
I mean, that's all been inculcated into me as well since I was a kid as well.
I mean, we were both raised Christian to varying degrees.
Yeah, we were. I went to a Christian school and had to go to church every other week or something.
So I can really relate to that.
You had to go to church every other week?
Yeah. That seems rather like not a very energetic Christian household.
Every fortnight, you know, it's a long way to go.
The pubes, they hurt my back a little.
You know, the singing and my throat gets raw.
It just seems like a lot of... It was with the school, actually.
Right, well, good for you. I was at boarding school where you had to go to church like four times a week.
Oh, my God.
I remember it clearly, though, because I had my first year of primary school in this school full of really hippie teachers, really chilled out kids.
They really knew how to deal with children.
And I was really happy.
I had loads of friends. And then at the start of the second year, I think, or the end of the first, I have a very vivid memory of being taken out of that school and being put in this Christian one where my brothers were going.
And the only reason I was told was that it's a better school.
Like, they've got computers, which the other school didn't.
And I just thought, I just bared that grudge all the way through primary school against my mum.
This vivid, vivid memory.
The main one that springs to mind when I think of primary school is when my mum was actually dragging me into school and sitting me down in front of a teacher and a load of goldfish eyes staring at me like all these children while I was just crying my eyes out and she just left.
Just a really strong memory of that.
Right, right, right.
Okay, and we'll get to this.
That would be great.
So that's one aspect of the cycle of abuse, which is an attack followed by a selfish desire for forgiveness.
And of course, this is really reinforced by Christianity, right?
Because in Christianity, You are constantly sinning, whether you like it or not.
I mean, a fart is a sin.
So you're constantly sinning, and then you have to go and pray for forgiveness, and then you sin again.
So there's this manic-depressive, psychotic cycle in Christianity and all of the major religions in this way.
You're constantly doing wrong, constantly atoning for it.
It really destabilizes, not just psychologically, but biochemically.
I mean, it's just not good for you as a whole.
You've got adrenaline all the time.
But the other aspect of it, of course, is that An abuser has a really difficult problem insofar as he can't see himself as an abuser, right?
Because once you see yourself as an abuser, you stop being abusive, right?
That's why denial is so important for people like alcoholics or whatever, right?
So, your dad had a problem insofar as he was screaming at, shaking, pushing up against the wall and insulting helpless and defences innocent little children, right?
Oh, it's hideous. Absolutely beyond hideous.
But he has a problem, which is how does he live with himself?
Well, of course, one of the things he does is he says, it's for your own good.
He also says that you provoke.
He also says that daddy gets stressed.
When my brother was about...
When I was 17, probably the same age as me now, 17, 18, he did actually try and bring up with my dad about how crap my dad had raised him and my brother basically like, I don't know, I think they went down the pub one night or something and my brother like tried to have a conversation with my dad about how he thought that the way my dad had raised him was pretty rubbish.
And I remember the whole conversation.
It must have really burnt up in my dad.
He must have been fuming about it.
Because I remember a few nights afterwards, they had the biggest argument.
My dad was like, you know, oh, I can't believe you said all those things to me.
It was so unfair. You know, it kept going on like this.
And all these things I do for you, I can't believe, you know, you turn around and say that to me after all these years and going on like this.
You little bastard!
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Right. Now, the thing is, you're going to have to stop watching your language, and this is not language police, right?
But this is just so that you can sit in the reality of the history, right?
Because you use words like crap and rubbish and so on, but frankly, it's evil.
To assault children, to verbally abuse helpless, independent children, Yeah, shopping center.
Yeah, shopping center.
Yeah, shopping center.
But if you came across him doing that, assaulting a child, I mean, it would be beyond shocking, right?
It would be beyond appalling.
It would be a total relationship breaker.
I mean, that would be a deal breaker.
Because you'd say, well, what you just did there is completely evil.
You attacked a child.
Mm-hmm. So you wouldn't say, well, that was kind of crap behavior.
You wouldn't say, well, what you did there was kind of rubbish.
You'd say, that was kind of evil.
And I know that in England there are certain words that have resonance around criticisms of people, pathetic, rubbish, crap, and so on.
But they kind of lack a real moral dimension, if that makes sense.
Because attacking children is evil.
If it's not, I don't know what it is.
That's one of the problems that you're facing.
It's not just, well, he was a bad dad, he was angry, he was abused.
This was evil behavior.
That aspect, you need to simmer.
That's not a word that we really feel that comfortable with these days.
You think evil, you think it's growing horns and he's got a lariat of fire or something.
But it is something that we need to get used to because we need to clearly identify that when somebody has the capacity to control his temper, but instead he seeths and sits and waits and terrifies his children until he can abuse them in private, that's evil.
And the last thing that I'll say about this cycle of abuse is that your father, after attacking you, Has to not attack you for a little while.
And what he needs to do is he needs to rebuild your trust.
Because what he's really attacking is vulnerability.
And it's his own vulnerability he's trying to cover up because he was attacked when he was a kid.
He had a really weird dad.
Sure. And a stranger can have sympathy for your dad, but you can't.
For you to try to have sympathy for your dad would be really unhelpful.
I think so. Because you experienced the fear and the pain and the anger and the abuse.
So, to take an extreme example, if a rapist was sexually abused as a child, a psychologist may have some sympathy for that rapist, but the rape victim should never try for that, right?
Of course not. Right, so what he's really doing is he's attacking vulnerability.
Now, if you attack someone every day, morning, noon, and night, you punch them, well obviously you'll get caught.
And secondly, You'll turn them completely into a sociopath, right?
I mean, that kind of extreme violence continually would...
The child would no longer ever be vulnerable.
But what your dad needed to do was he needed to attack you and let you become vulnerable again, let you lower your defenses a little bit again so he could attack you again.
And that's another reason why you get this attack followed by this break and this nicey-nice behavior that's almost more freaky and stomach-turning.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from.
To keep you off balance and also to make you feel like if a parent hits you five times a day, there's no way that you could conceivably imagine that that's your father.
No kid could be that bad.
But if it's only once every week or two or whatever, then it also helps the child, so to speak.
To become more self-critical, to say, well, obviously my dad can go two weeks without hitting me, so now that he's hit me, it must be because I did something wrong.
And you said something a little earlier, Candice.
You said, my brother was seven and he can't have done that much wrong.
He can't have done anything wrong.
Well, there's nothing a child can do that warrants abuse.
Especially not the things that my brother was doing.
I mean, there was no...
No, no. I'm going to be totally annoying with you here.
Yeah, go for it. Nothing a child can do.
A child can set fire to a cat and you do not abuse the child.
There is no behavior that a child can do that permits assault.
And you would never say to Tom, well, Tom, I don't want you to hit me unless the soup is not the right temperature.
If the soup is not the right temperature, then you can absolutely clock me, but other than that, I think it would be unfair.
You would say, under no circumstances can you hit me.
Does that make sense? Absolutely, yeah.
Right, and it's exactly the same thing.
There is no possibility that your brother or you or your sister did anything whatsoever that came within a bazillion miles of justifying any of these assaults.
Yeah, I can see that.
Now, I'm guessing that particularly with your brother, the physical assaults, Began to diminish after puberty.
Yeah, when Chris became as big as my dad, yeah, basically.
Here's another example of how your father can control his aggression.
Okay, yeah.
If he himself is going to face negative consequences, i.e.
he's going to get caught, or...
He's going to get hit back.
Amazingly, suddenly, he has the ability to control his temper to the point where he doesn't hit, right?
Yeah, definitely. Do you get how filthily cowardly that is?
To hit a child when you don't have to, right?
And then when the child throws up, suddenly, magically, you don't want to fight anymore.
Yeah, I can see that.
I mean, that's gut-wrenchingly, stomach-turningly.
I mean, it's really strange now, because when my brother and my dad do argue now, my dad always assumes that Chris is going to hit him.
That's the first thing he assumes, and I guess that is mainly because, most likely because, well, if my dad used to be violent to Chris, he can only know that he passed on the same behaviour to Chris.
And I suppose this is something that worries me about my brother and my sister, is that they do show the same behaviour as my dad.
And I mean, especially with my younger sister, it's upsetting because, I mean, she's 12, but it's quite horrible to think that she's going to be affected by this, but she's probably not going to get the same kind of help that I got in getting over it.
She'll probably never know that something is wrong.
Well, you can do a lot to affect that over time, so don't give up hope on her, right?
But you can affect her directly.
You can only affect her through examples.
I'm sorry, Tom, we'll get to you in just a second, but Candy, I just wanted to talk about you had some ambiguity regarding your mother as well.
Yeah, definitely. I don't know what to do about my mother because I generally think that Most of the time, I have a quite nice relationship with my mom.
I mean, you know, we'll talk about loads of things and she'll make me laugh and it's nice.
But then if I think about, like, back to my childhood or something and how she enabled my dad to act like this, is she really a nice person?
Do I really want to know her?
Sorry to interrupt. What do you mean when you say she enabled your father to act like this?
She didn't stop him.
It's a little more proactive than that, right?
Because she had children with him.
Yeah. It's not like you guys, like they came across you in their house, right?
And then your dad ended up hitting you, right?
No. She actively chose, pursued or chose a man who was verbally and physically abusive, and then she gave him children, right?
She brought children into the world knowing, as an adult, what your father was like.
I don't know, because I've spoken to loads of like...
Wives who've maybe had abusive husbands and they've said, you know, you just don't see it when you're first going out with them.
You think they're the nicest people ever.
And then you marry them and you realize they're actually horrible.
Wait, wait, wait. Hang on.
I understand this is a compelling story, but are you trying to tell me...
That it's believable that your father, I guess what, they went out for a year or two before they got married?
They went out for two years and then they got married.
Two years. And then how long after they got married, unless this is an embarrassing family secret, was it until they had kids?
I think about a year and a half.
Okay, so she's got what, three and a half years?
Did I get that right? Yeah.
Three and a half years. Are you going to tell me that your dad, when he was younger...
And closer to his own abuse was in no way, shape or form verbally or physically abusive before the kids came along.
I guess my mom just didn't pick up on it.
Either that or she just didn't care.
Well, it's hard to avoid the knowledge of, let's just say verbal abuse.
Your dad is more mellow now than he was when he was younger.
What does that mean? Sorry.
What it means is that he's less abusive now than he was when he was younger.
Yeah, definitely. Now that we've grown up.
That's true, but also people who have particular kinds of personality disorders, they do tend to mellow over time.
He's less abusive now than he was when he was dating your mom.
It's pretty hard to miss when somebody's being verbally abusive.
Right? You don't feel good, unless you're a complete masochist, and of course, that's not the case, right?
It's hard to miss that somebody is being verbally abusive.
Also, was he ever physically abusive towards your mum?
I don't think so.
My mum has never said that he was physically abusive.
If he was, I have no idea about it, let's put it that way.
Right, okay, so only towards children.
Only towards my brother. Yes, so sorry, you're quite right.
So I can absolutely guarantee you that there is no possibility that he was not at least verbally abusive towards your mom before you guys came along and while they were dating.
And I bet you it happened on the first date or the second date.
Yeah, yeah, probably.
I can see that, definitely.
I mean, my mum has talked about how my dad, like, he could say, like, I don't know, just stupid things to her sometimes which really weren't nice.
I mean, I don't know, like, taking the rip out of the way she looks or something, you know, things like that.
And, yeah, he wasn't, he wouldn't have been someone I'd have gone with.
I would have never chosen to go out with him.
And sorry, let me just rewind you for a second because you said he would say stupid things.
Yeah. Right, so if I say a stupid thing, then I'm saying the world is flat, right?
Maybe, but not...
No, to say something stupid is very different than to say something cruel or malevolent.
Yeah, okay, it was cruel then. Right, and again, I'm sorry to be such a nag about this.
No, go for it. There's going to be a constant family myth, because in the core of your cult, called the family, in the core of your cult, is this violence, whether it's verbal or physical.
The verbal violence is actually worse.
In many ways, you and your sister had it much worse than your brother did.
Because the verbal abuse is worse.
It's harder on the self-esteem.
It's harder on the psyche.
It doesn't leave a mark.
It's not dramatic. It's just this constant acid drip on your self-esteem.
In many, many ways, you guys had it much, much worse than your brother.
In the core of your family is this devil.
Of your father, and we'll get to your mother in a sec, but there's this devil of evil behavior, and I guarantee you that 99.999% of your family interaction is either making up stories about this, or ignoring it completely.
Ignoring it? Well, yeah, but if it does ever come up, it's like, oh yes, he used to say stupid things.
It's like, but it's not stupid!
It was cruel. It was cruel.
It was directed. It was focused.
It was an accurate wounding.
Right? And this is why, you know, crap upbringing in someone is, no, evil and abusive, right?
You have to call a spade a spade, right?
Yeah. I agree with you.
So then the question is, with regards to your mother, again, this is just trying to get accurate.
I'm not sort of trying to give you my interpretation, just to get accurate.
That your mother... She willingly chose, dated, got engaged to, got married to, lived with, and gave children to a highly abusive man.
And I'm sure she can make you laugh.
People can be very funny.
But you can pay a comedian 10 bucks to do that.
That's not the same as having value.
What I always try and say to people is that value in a relationship, particularly intimate, close relationships like family or lovers, value is something that you can't get from someone else.
So women will say, I cooked and cleaned for you.
It's like, well, there are restaurants and maids.
So that doesn't count.
What counts is what can be provided that nobody else wants.
Can, right? Intimacy, understanding, knowledge, and virtue, and wisdom, all of the kind of stuff that's unique to an individual and to a relationship, right?
So, with your mom, you know, that she makes you laugh, that you can go shopping together, that you ha-ha, I mean, that doesn't mean anything as far as real intimacy goes, right?
It's not, like, bad, it's not evil or anything, but the real area when you're tortured, when you say, I don't know what to do about my mother, what that means is that you're ambivalent.
About your mother. And what that means is that there's a certain kind of value that you get from her, but there's a certain kind of horror at the fact that she allowed, not enabled, created this situation, right?
Because if she didn't have kids with your dad, he wouldn't have had anyone to abuse, right?
So she created this situation.
It wasn't just like your dad got a hold of some kids and she stood by and did nothing.
She created that situation, if that makes sense.
And there's no way that I can obviously tell you what the resolution to your conversation or your relationship with your mother is, but I absolutely guarantee you that you have to talk to her about this stuff, right?
I just don't know if I can.
I don't know.
I just feel like she'd say something to me like, oh, it wasn't that bad.
Or... I had it much worse.
Or, I don't know, I'd be grateful if I had a dialogue.
And I'd find those things really hard to confront.
Well, and so what's your option?
What do you prefer to do instead?
Do you want to just pretend like nothing happened?
Not really. Well, I can tell you that's not healthy at all.
At some point, I'm totally absolutely sorry for going way forward in time here.
No, go for it. But let's say that you guys end up getting married and having kids, right?
Yeah. Right. Is your dad going to babysit?
No way. No, no.
Because he's going to be alive, let's say, for another 30 years.
Yeah, but what if he just kind of, I don't know, comes around one day and just says, oh, hi, I'm here to see your kids.
Police. Police.
I'm sorry, sorry, we just jumped a little bit there.
But what I'm trying to say is...
I don't know, I wouldn't know how to get them out of my lives.
That would be... Well, no, no.
That's another issue, right?
Forget about the how.
We have to look at the why first.
If you're convinced of the why, you can figure out a how, right?
Like, if you're convinced that it's really good to get to Bangladesh, you'll figure out how to get there, right?
But, of course, if you're not convinced, it's like, well, it just seems kind of daunting and stupid, right?
So, forget about defooing or anything.
Don't worry about that. The important thing is to get emotional clarity and emotional certainty, and we only get that through conversing with the people who've done us wrong, right?
Yeah. You would not allow, and I would think it would be pretty criminal, to allow your father to babysit your children.
Yeah, well, I mean, I'd be pretty scared anyway that he's going to do something violent, and I don't want my kids anywhere near a person who's going to do that, so...
And even if he's not doing anything violent, who are you going to be when he's around?
Because you go into a shell, don't you?
Yeah. Yeah, I can't be myself at all around my dad.
Yeah, absolutely. You sit all the time.
It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers for Tom, right?
Like he's going out with this vivacious, intelligent woman, right?
And the cat comes around and he's dealing with some armoured armadillo killed up under the camera.
It's literally like that.
I think you've explained how...
When you were with Christina, seeing her parents, I mean, I just listened to that podcast, and I don't remember which, but I completely related.
Like, you'd both go, and she'd disappear, and you'd end up talking to this Greek couple...
Right. Like I'm some state worker or something, you know?
Hello, I'm Stefan from the mountains.
Like it doesn't make any sense, right?
And it's going to be really disorienting for your children.
Definitely. Yeah, I think that's the thing.
I mean... I don't know.
When I'm with my dad, I can't speak about anything that I'm interested in.
I can't, I don't know, open up.
He wants, like, a loving daughter who can hug him, and, you know, he calls me lots of pet names, and he's really sweet and nice, but I just can't respond.
It's disgusting.
It's really disgusting.
Does he play the lottery at all?
Yes, every week.
Got it. And do you realise why I ask that?
No. It's the desire to have what you have not earned.
Yeah.
I see.
I want money but I don't want to work for it.
I want to be loved, but I did not treat my children with any degree of consistent kindness, right?
I want the effects, but I don't want the courts.
And so I would say that, first of all, there is no possibility of restitution in this situation.
There is no possibility of restitution in this situation.
We all have this fantasy that, sorry, we all have this fantasy that our parents are going to see the light, right?
That their foreheads are going to open, a big searchlight is going to come, oh my god, what did I do?
And they're bursting into tears and they are going to fall on the ground and beg for forgiveness and go to therapy.
I don't want that from my dad, though. I just don't want it.
Okay, right.
Because you know that it would be fake.
Yeah, I don't know. I just want to get away from my dad.
I don't like him. Right, right.
And so, I mean, that seems great, right?
But what you have a soft spot for is your mom.
Yeah, pretty much.
And I would invite you to figure out whether that's your mom's preference or your preference.
See, when we're young, and this, God knows, I wish this changed when you got older.
It doesn't as much as you'd think. But when we're young, we are so wrapped up in the stories that people tell themselves about why they do what they do.
And your mom, of course, stood by while your dad was abusive towards you guys.
She was supposed to be your protector.
You understand that, right? She was supposed to be the mother grizzly, the mother lion, who protected her offspring.
And this is core to her experience of the world, that she did not do this.
Of course, what happens when you're together and your dad's kind of clingy and grabby and giving you a hug?
And what does your mom say? I don't know.
I think...
My mom just kind of...
Well, actually, I think...
The way I act with my mom is that I can be really loving with her.
I will hug her and she'll hug me and all this kind of stuff.
And if my dad says, oh, why didn't you ever hug me?
My mom can actually look really smug, like, oh, I've got my daughter, but she clearly doesn't love you.
That can actually be how it is sometimes.
My mom can actually look really smug, like, oh, she loves me, but she doesn't love you.
And what do you think about that?
I feel like I'm getting back at my dad.
I feel like through my mom, I'm saying to my dad, I'm showing my dad that he didn't really do anything for me emotionally.
So I'm, you know, but I don't know, for some reason, I feel like my mom did.
Sorry, I mean, I'm just trying to process this.
No, go for it. I'm just trying to process what you're saying.
I don't. That your mom is using your abuse and resulting hostility to your abuser as a one-upmanship thing?
Possibly. No, no, seriously.
I'm trying to process this.
It's a triumph for her that your dad abused you and you don't love her?
It's something she's won at?
I think I can see it.
Your abuse is something she uses to prop herself up to get one over on your dad.
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
I'm just having trouble processing that.
No, now that you've said it, that makes sense.
It's shocking. I don't like hearing it, but it makes sense.
It's shocking. It's a calling.
It's horrifying. I know.
I'm sorry. You know, I'm not trying to make it that way.
You're just telling me what you're telling me.
Oh, no. But that's appalling!
I mean, if I was some woman married to some guy who raped some girl, and then that girl came over and wasn't affectionate towards her rapist, and I'd go, ha, you see, she likes me and not you, ha ha, one up for me, right?
But that's insane!
Has she ever come to you and said, how do you feel about your dad and what happened?
No. Well, because she knows, right?
because she's using it to prop up herself and to be one-up on your dad, right?
I know I like it.
No, look, with all sympathy, right?
I mean, I know we're giggling a bit here because it is so horrible, right?
I mean, I know that that makes sense, right?
But this is why you don't know what to do.
I have no idea what to do. Well, you do know what to do.
You know exactly what to do.
There's no one who needs to tell you anything about what it's like to have lived for 17 years in this family and what your future happiness and the future protection of your children is going to entail.
There's no one who needs to tell you thing one about that.
The problem is you don't want to do what you want to do.
You don't want to do what you have to do.
I mean, and I understand that too, right?
But the ambivalence is that you know exactly what you need to do, but you're terrified, as we all are, and there's no pill to make that go away, right?
But you're not indecisive.
You're ambivalent, which means you have opposing strong opinions.
It's not indecision, right?
Like, if I'm genuinely, if I'm stuck at a crossroads and I don't know which way to go, I'm genuinely indecisive, right?
But if I absolutely have to go one way, but I'm completely terrified to go that way, then I'm stuck there, paralyzed.
but those two are very different situations, if that makes sense.
Hello.
Hi.
Sorry that we had to spend so much on this, right?
But the reason is because Candice's family is so full of this mythology, right?
And everybody's working so hard to ignore the elephant in the room, the stump in the room, the violence at the core, right?
And everybody is desperate to not have this be revealed, and that's why everybody spends so much time making up stories and distracting and making jokes and, ha, ha, ha, and, you know, the daughter you abused doesn't love you, she loves you more, I win, ha, ha, ha, right?
I mean, that's exactly why they don't want to do it, because they know the moral horror that's at the root of this kind of behavior and treatment of children, and there's no one who needs to say anything about that.
You know, other than just settle it in.
And if you have doubts, right, talk about it with your parents, right?
But given that you don't want to talk about it with your mom, you know exactly what she's going to say.
You know exactly how it's going.
Then what's the point of speaking to her?
There isn't really any...
Well, you gain closure, you gain sympathy.
I guess so. But I don't want to say, I can just see it will end in like a big argument.
And to be fair, I mean, I have to live in the house for the next however many months and I don't want to be living in a really high tension house.
I mean, I know it's like that anyway, but if we all have this massive explosive argument, there would just be like, I mean, I don't even think I'd be able to sit down and get on with homework.
It would be that tense.
Right. No, you're absolutely right, and I'm sorry for being unclear.
What I mean by that is you came into the conversation with mixed feelings about your mom, right?
So when you have this conversation doesn't matter, right?
Because the conversation in its essence is just a confirmation.
So that you can see things clearly and directly, and then what we do is we get closure.
Closure is just another word for certainty, right?
There's no doubt. And you can wait if you want until you move out.
Like, it doesn't matter. But you can spend the intervening time in your own mind attempting to dismantle the mythology.
Yeah. I feel that my mother is counting my abuse as a way to one-up my dad.
How do I feel? Without having to open your mouth and talk to anyone, right?
Definitely. But yeah, look, I mean, to put it bluntly, people have to acknowledge this abuse or there is no relationship.
I mean, you can go over there every Sunday if you want.
There's no relationship if there's no truth at the core.
And even if they admit it, there's no possibility of restitution.
Nobody can give you your childhood back.
Nobody can turn you into the kind of person...
That you could be if you'd had a happy childhood, right?
That is a gift that can never be returned to you.
you.
And that's why parental apologies mean nothing.
Tom, was there anything that you wanted to add or any sort of questions?
Sorry.
Sorry, that we've had to spend more time on this side of things.
But, I mean, this is where the major, I think...
You don't seem to have a lot of ambiguity, right?
So we didn't sort of have to focus on you quite as much.
But I just... No, of course not.
Well, this is actually... Obviously, this is really helpful for me, too.
I mean, you're talking to my other half.
I mean, this is just great to let it all come out and to really tackle this because...
I mean, when we talk about it, it's, we, me and Candice, it's, it's, there's, the elephant in the room between us is her mum.
So, it's like, and it's, I feel, the situation is, it's much worse.
The elephant, if you like, is much bigger in her house.
Everyone is really, like, pushing and shoving and squeezing their butts up against the wall to try and avoid it, and they keep disturbing the elephant, and it keeps making noises, because they can't avoid it, because it's...
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean, compared to mine, I mean...
The elephant? There's not much squeezing.
Yeah, but there's loads of tension in your house.
I mean, your mom is, like, cold.
It's a silent, cold tension.
Yeah. It's a...
Wait, wait.
Sorry to interrupt. Yes.
Cold British mom?
You never hear of that.
Yeah, but that's what I thought my mom was.
They're always so warm and cuddly and affectionate. They're all like Margaret Thatcher on a deep freeze.
No, your mom is cold.
No, my mom is stoned.
No, I mean, the way I feel...
I mean, for Candice, there's a lot of emotion.
I mean, there's a lot. There's going to be a lot of guilt.
I can feel it when we make that break.
I mean, when it comes.
Like, in the future, we...
Yeah, but for my future children, I think this is going to be worth it to get away from them, because I don't want them to know my mum and dad.
It's not worth it.
What I'm saying is that I could disappear from this family.
I have old relatives who've...
There's this story of some relative who...
An uncle twice removed or something, who just disappeared to Ireland, changed his name...
And got married, and you just completely disappeared.
I mean, this has happened in my family before, and I really feel I could just disappear and not disturb them.
You could just get away. And not disturb them.
Yeah, no one would disturb you either.
No. But with my mum, I think when I go to uni, she'll be, like, ringing me up and saying she misses me, and I'll be going, oh, you know, I miss you too.
Oh, right. I think...
No, no, no. I mean, I get that too.
I do speak Spanish. Yes.
I speak Spanish, yeah.
Oh, then I'm very sorry for that.
I apologize. But, no, I get that too, obviously.
I get emails, the calls and everything, and they try to come after me, but it wouldn't be like a passionate It will be with my mom.
It will be with you, yeah.
Oh, it will be with my sister as well.
Absolutely, and it's so hard.
I'm the youngest of three brothers.
They're already at uni.
Nick, the brother two years older than me, he's studying in London.
He's already kind of disappeared.
He hardly comes over when he does.
He doesn't really talk. He's not there.
He just has this separate life.
The thing that's given me a bit of confidence, I suppose, is seeing him just not talking.
Even though he was so into that, He'd live in the house, but only for a few hours of the day.
They'd be hours when my parents would be asleep.
During that time, I kept talking to my parents.
I don't do it so much now.
I mean, after I realized that there's nothing there.
There's no friendship. There's no point.
But now I've stopped doing that.
I'm much more independent.
I really get the sense.
I understand, as you say, how these people just don't exist as souls in existence.
There's no emotion.
They don't exist in terms of my relationship with them.
Right, right.
And I mean, there is a general intergenerational thing.
Watch the video on why we're so different from our parents.
It might be worth having a look. But there is this intergenerational shift, and there is this massive uplifting of the human condition that we're part of, right?
And you guys, I guarantee that you guys are smarter than me, right?
Because you're just another generation down the pipe, right?
And your kids will be even smarter than you.
We better get our shit together.
No, you can't be smarter than us.
That's at all, right? So...
No, no, listen, biologically and on average, you guys are smarter than me, right?
I mean, and don't doubt that.
I mean, you are complete geniuses and philosophers, and you are smarter than me, and you should absolutely hold on to that, and trust your feelings about all of that stuff, right?
I'm just happy to pass a kind of torch, right, if that makes sense, but without a doubt, and your kids will be smarter than you, right, if this trend continues, so...
So you don't want to make any mistakes, right?
Because they'll pick it up like that, right?
They'll be, like, levitating or some freaky shit like that.
But I just sort of wanted to leave you with the thoughts, and I'm happy to chat more if you want.
But we have this habit when we look at...
And this is family mythology 101, right?
But we have this habit when we look at our family and when people talk to us about our families of what's...
Psychologically, it's called splitting.
And splitting is... You know, I have a good dad and I have a bad dad.
And you see this in fairy tales all the time.
Like, my good mother died and I'm raised by this wicked stepmother.
It's just splitting, right? And we do this with our parents.
And we say, I have a mean dad and a nice mom.
Or I have a nice dad and a mean mom.
My dad was abusive but my mom did the best she could.
So we identify the negative traits of one partner in the marriage and then we make excuses for the other partner's behavior or lack of intervention and so on.
But I totally guarantee you that there's no good person in a marriage.
There's no bad person in a marriage.
They are equals.
It is a system.
One could not do it without the other.
Your dad wouldn't have anyone to abuse if your mom didn't have children with him.
He couldn't have done it without her.
She created the situation and she couldn't have done whatever nefarious psychological stuff she was up to without him.
So, we have this desire to say, well, there's this bad person and then there's this better person.
This is your mom's story, right?
Which is why she takes glee or takes pleasure in the fact that you don't love your dad that much or whatever, right?
But there is no good person in a marriage.
There is no bad person.
I mean, it's equal, right? You can't slice and dice it up that way.
way.
It is a system, if that makes sense.
Well, we didn't do any real-time relationship stuff, but that's no problem, because this was the stuff that's more pressing, right?
Is there anything that's unclear or anything that would be helpful to talk about?
Do you guys want to sort of skew this one over?
Well, we'll definitely talk about all of this.
I guess...
I'm just trying to take in everything I've got.
Taking it in, letting it sink in, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Right, so you get a chance to hear it again.
We will do that. Do you think there's any worth in, like, I guess after this sinks in, like, whether it's worth seeing a school counsellor or, like, therapist?
Yes, yes, I would absolutely say that that is the case.
I can't do my, because I'm a bungee guy.
Yeah, I know. Here's the truth, and then I bounce out of it.
So I'm like, here's a bunch of illumination, and now I'm gone.
And that goes out, right?
This is just the beginning, right?
So this is like light diffused, and now you have to keep the knowledge alive, because your tendency, as is the case with all of us, Your tendency is going to be to slip back into obedience and subservience and unconsciousness, right?
Because that's what we're all trained to do as children, right?
So this illumination that you're feeling and chaos and, you know, it's like the fact that I've come in sort of with a Sten gun of truth and fired randomly, seemingly blindfolded.
No, I know. You need to maintain that process, right?
And you need to... You know, particularly you, Candice, right?
You had some pretty rough stuff happen to you, and you obviously, obviously, obviously, given your sensitivity towards animals and eggs, right?
You don't want to...
Inflict one tenth of one percent of any of this on your own kids.
So there is absolutely a process that needs to continue where you work through not just the intellectual illumination that I can bring to bear, but the longer term emotional work to make sure that the habits don't resurface.
I don't think they will.
I don't think they will.
That's mighty, mighty confident for somebody who's just had an hour, right?
Yeah, it is a shock. It's a shock.
When someone says it to you just so plainly, you just hear it.
And all you did was just clarify what she said.
You didn't bring in anything new, you just put it in black and white.
Oh yeah, I didn't do anything.
Well, yeah, I mean, I'm the guy who won't lie, right?
And I'm the guy who has nothing to lose by telling you the truth, right?
Everyone who's going to be invested in you, right?
So you go and talk about this stuff with a friend who also has issues with her parents.
She's going to say, oh, you just have to forgive your parents.
Why? Because that's what she wants to do.
Not because it has anything to do with the truth, right?
Whereas I'm the guy, like I got no family, I got no friends, I got you two to have this life.
But what I'm saying is that I don't have to...
Welcome to the desert island of truth!
No, but I don't have any blocks about the truth, because I've dealt with all of this stuff.
I spent years in therapy, I have to eat food, and Christine has gone through this, and so I don't have any blocks towards telling you the truth, whereas most, if not everybody that you meet in your life, with each other accepted, and future friends and so on, but they all have a vested interest in obscuring the truth for themselves, and they're just willing to bury you with that nonsense too, right?
Mm-hmm. Alright, well listen, I've given you 6 million ideas, so what I'll do is I'll compile this up and I'll put it in a Skype chat, download it and have a listen to it.
I personally think this would be a great podcast, but have a listen to it and just let me know if there's anything you want changed or edited or anything like that.
Just let me know. Okay, great.
Well, have a listen to it first, at least.
Just in case you're going to be horrified.
Bring it back! Don't release it!
Whatever you do, right? Right.
All right, well, you guys did fantastically.
I really do appreciate it.
I know that it's not the easiest thing in the world, but I think it is an essential process to gain some kind of clarity with this kind of stuff, and it's a hard thing to do.
Thanks a lot, Steph. So I think you guys did magnificently.
Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot.
Bye. All right, I'll talk to you guys soon, eh?
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