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Oct. 11, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:03:02
882 Choosing A Career

A listener and I work through the process of choosing a career

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Hey, how's it going? Good, how are you?
Not too bad at all.
How's my volume? Okay.
Volume is fine. Cool.
So, what happened that night?
You were working on a...
I was working on an assignment, and I pretty much just felt in a short time span that I don't want to be in computer science.
Right. It was kind of like...
It made me think of what you said before about willpower is overrated, and I thought doing this for another two years would just be, like, more willpower than I could muster.
Well, it wouldn't just be for two years, right?
Oh, yeah, exactly.
The rest of your natural-born life.
Yeah. And I know my roommate loves coding, so I know what it looks like to really enjoy it, but I just don't have that.
So what was the process that led you to get into computers to begin with?
I had a really interesting computer science class in high school, and the teacher pretty much just let us do whatever we wanted, so we programmed games.
And I really liked the creative aspect, but ever since then it's been...
I enjoy running games and stuff like that, but I don't think I could work in Office applications and dry stuff like that.
Right, right. Now, isn't there...
Again, we'll start with some of the practical stuff first, which I'm sure you've already...
Sure....but there are specific programs for game developers, right?
Yeah, yeah. I just don't even think I'd like programming games really anymore.
What about the more artistic side of the game, such as map design or the graphics and that kind of stuff?
I'm not really sure.
I think maybe I could enjoy the non-coding part of creating a game, sort of like the storyline or just like the vision for the game sort of thing.
Right. Or you could do some stuff around map design, which is more codey, but not exactly coding.
Yeah. Like more scripting and design.
I don't think I could get as enthusiastic about it as I would something like being a psychologist when I'm actually changing people's lives.
Well, yes, of course.
That's where you're screwed.
Yeah. I mean, technically.
Because on the one hand, it's a nice, elegant piece of code, and on the other hand, it's changing someone's life, so it's kind of not really a comparison to me.
Right. And I mean, I'm certainly going to tell you from my standpoint that computers became a whole lot less interesting after I started really working out philosophy.
Exactly. I found the same thing.
The senses are less rich than the soul, so to speak.
Right. And computers, to one degree or another, are either analytical or around the senses, but not to hijack the term, not soulful or spiritual, in a way that is really satisfying.
Exactly. I think if I hadn't have found FreeDomain, I might have had 10 years of coding before I realized that I didn't love it as much, but luckily I did find FreeDomain.
Luckily, I have detonated your school career.
I love the way you use the word luckily.
I mean, you're right, but it's just not many people would see it that way.
Yeah. Now, but you said that you didn't love coding as much, and I'm just trying to understand what your emotional relationship to coding is.
So do you love it somewhat?
Do you love it a little? Because you said you wouldn't love it as much after 10 years.
You'd notice that. I'm not sure what I meant.
But what is your experience now?
Do you love it, but just not as much?
Oh, no. No.
I feel right now, if I... Coded again, I would lose the will to live.
That's how I feel about it right now.
Oh, so it's not just a matter of love or not.
It's like sheer gut-level raging anathema, right?
Yeah, yeah. Right.
I think maybe in a couple years I could pick it up.
And just dawdle around with it a little bit and not hate it.
But at the moment, it's hate.
Right, right. Well, that's both good and bad at the same time.
Because, I mean, it's bad insofar as it is definitely withdrawing from an investment that you've made in a particular field.
But it's good in that you're not tortured by a whole bunch of ambivalence, like torn between two lovers feeling like a fool kind of thing.
Not at all. So from that standpoint, you're more fortunate than most insofar as you dislike something, but you also have grown to dislike it more and more relative to something else that you like more and more, which is philosophy or psychology or whatnot.
Yeah. It's interesting too because I saw a psychologist for about six sessions and she pretty much said flat out that you're not going to enjoy computers anymore.
And at first I was kind of like, huh?
But yeah, I realized now she was right.
Why do you think she said that?
Well, she asked me what my interests were and none of them were computer science.
Right. Yeah, she said I would enjoy something that's more humanitarian.
I think she probably meant more in the humanities.
But okay, so that's interesting.
So this is sort of a way that I try to frame the major life decisions.
Are you married? No.
Oh, so you can't ask what your wife would do.
Because that's the way that I do it.
Like, honey, what should I do? But it's different now, because you're still a single man, so you still have this annoying free will thing.
So let's go to your gravestone, right?
So you're a young guy, but let's say in 60 years or so, They're throwing you down for the big dirt nap and they're throwing the dirt on your face.
And what would you like to see sort of carved on your tombstone?
Not good coder.
No. Made the world a better place, maybe?
Maybe. And enjoyed every minute of it?
Yeah, okay. So would that be the...
I mean, I'm not trying to corner you and you can change this answer anytime you like, but...
Made the world a better place and enjoyed every minute of it.
That's what you would like to see on your tombstone.
And I can certainly tell you from my own direct experience that there's nothing that's more enjoyable than making the world a better place.
So it's not an end, it's an interwoven...
Although the challenge is to learn to love a world that's pretty corrupt, but we can talk about that another time.
So you would like to be a force for truth, light, virtue, enlightenment, and all of that good stuff in the world.
Is that right? Yeah, I'd like to be a staff mini.
Oh, I'd like you to be a Steph Maxie.
Hell, pick it up where I am, drop it off and keep it moving forward.
So, what field do you see?
Well, sorry. So, when you look at that as your tombstone, that is going to be the life that when you're sitting on your deathbed, you're going to look back and say, well, I couldn't have done much better than that, right?
Right. Yeah. And that's really important.
I think it's sort of important to work from the goal backwards, right?
And figure out what you need to do to get there.
So, I mean, there are a number of different approaches that you can take to making the world a better place.
Everything from just being, you know, working in a Joe job and raising happy kids yourself.
You can run for office.
No, I'm just kidding. You can be a writer.
You can be a musician and sing songs about making the world a better place.
You can become a radio personality.
You could write screenplays like this.
A whole bunch of things that you could do.
But what is it that you think would, I mean, what's your tolerance for risk?
And what is your sort of ideal lifestyle?
Is it sort of middle to upper class?
Are you happy living in a loft with three other unshaven people?
Or what is it that you're looking for?
That's an interesting question, because up until fairly recently, I would have said, I want to be very successful, but talking with the therapist, she kind of uncovered that that was more my dad's dream for me than my own.
Right, right. So, I'm not really sure.
I think I would like to be comfortable, but...
I'm not sure if a mansion is something that I really care about.
Well, that's good because I don't know that there's any philosophical or psychological pursuit that can give you a mansion other than...
which involves more drugging children than helping them.
But that's sort of an extreme, right?
To look for a mansion is to look for being in the top 0.1% of the population in terms of income.
But what is this sort of minimum?
Like, what is the standard somewhere above living on a cardboard box selling pencils and screaming philosophical obscenities into the gritty winds of downtown...
Somewhere between that and a mansion, where's your sort of comfort zone or where would you feel like a minimum acceptable level of comfort would be for you materially?
I'm actually pretty comfortable right now without a car, just living with a roommate.
One thing I would like is a view of a body of water of some sort.
But other than that, I could take the bus really.
Right, okay, okay.
And would you feel comfortable raising your children in an apartment?
Good question.
That assumes children, but I think I would like children.
I'm sorry, the reason that I ask you that is I certainly didn't get the sense that you didn't want children even from when we met.
Because you'd have to be a lot unhappier to not want.
I mean, that's sort of my theory. And the reason for that, of course, is that the decisions that you make now, you don't want to make decisions that preclude you being what you would consider to be a successful father or a good provider.
Because the decisions you make now are going to affect that, right?
Yeah. So if you don't want kids, no biggie, right?
You just have more money for yourself.
But if you end up wanting more money, then you have, it's kind of tough to go back in time and build up your capital, if that makes sense.
Yeah. That is a good point, because I would like to either send my kids to a private school, or if I had time, I could homeschool them.
But yeah, I would like to be able to provide them with the best medical services and give them a good education.
I guess middle class is probably when I need to be able to do that.
Well, it depends, of course, right?
I mean, because you're in Canada...
services, plus it's not too likely that your kids would require more than the standard care available under sort of our socialized medical system.
So that shouldn't be a huge deal.
As far as education goes, homeschooling is certainly an option depending on which career you're going to end up choosing, right?
So if you end up wanting to be sort of the itinerant wandering philosopher guy, then you'll certainly have the time to homeschool your children.
But if you decide to become a psychologist, then you won't really have the time to homeschool your children, but then you would be able to afford a private school.
Yeah.
So I think either way, I could probably figure that out.
Thank you.
Okay, okay, I've got it.
And how do you feel in terms of, and this is going to sound like an odd question, but I'll throw it out there anyway, how do you feel in terms of your sexual security insofar as picking up a girl for a date?
With no money. Right.
No, I mean, seriously, this is an important thing, right?
Because depending on your level of sexual confidence, which is not a good or bad thing, right?
Picking up the girl for a date in a bus might be troubling for some people, but other people it might be like a charming and bizarre kind of confidence.
So that's another thing to take into account.
And I only say that because I was so shallow even into my 30s that the fact that I had an expensive car gave me sort of a thrill when I was picking up girls for a date, which it shouldn't have because those girls proved to be rather uniformly not worth it.
And the woman who married me did so when I was unemployed.
So it didn't turn out to be a very good criteria, but it is something that's important to consider.
That is something I don't think I could answer right now.
I'd probably have to think about it.
Okay. I mean, you can't solve it all in one conversation, but these are just the various criteria.
I'll wait that down. Right.
And, of course, you'll get a recording of this, and should you feel...
I think it would be a great conversation for others to listen to because I know there's a lot of people in the same boat but you'll have a chance to listen to it and release it as a podcast.
You'll of course get a chance to write these questions and answer them in more detail.
My initial reaction to that is that I don't think it would bother me too much.
Maybe if I was dirt poor it might be difficult but I don't think I'd want the kind of girl that's Only going to go out with me for a nice car anyway, so...
Well, that's true, but you do face a challenge insofar as if you want to end up in sort of a situation like I have where you're making...
I don't know, a fifth less than you were making before, but fortunately you have a wife who's willing to be generous enough with her income, then...
I mean, this is all part of the planning, right?
It takes a fair amount of confidence to bag a rich chick.
That's all I'm saying, right?
So that's sort of important.
Of course, if your nickname is The Tripod, that might be a whole lot easier on that kind of stuff.
So these are just considerations to have, right?
That you don't want to end up feeling like you have nothing to offer a woman because you're broke.
That's going to seriously interfere with your romantic success.
That's just stuff to keep in mind.
What's your level of entrepreneurial drive?
The reason that I ask that is that It's quite different to sort of do what I do, and I sort of have an entrepreneurial background to a large degree, and I've only really ever had one regular job at the computer industry as a COBOL programmer, and after that it was mostly all entrepreneurial.
So I'm more comfortable with that kind of stuff, but there are other people, and it's not a good or bad thing, there are other people who are less comfortable with that, and of course, if you become a psychologist or a psychiatrist, Then you will have a kind of structure and require much less entrepreneurial drive to make a success of yourself.
This I think...
It's a little bit interwoven with my dad's dream for me because I would have said a couple of years ago that I have a really high entrepreneurial drive because my plan from my childhood was start a software company and become a multi-millionaire and retire at 30 or something like that.
Too bad the 90s ended, huh?
Yeah. I think I have a fairly high entrepreneurial drive.
I don't think I would be happy with a 9 to 5 office job.
And I don't mind working odd hours and things like that.
Okay. And what is your pleasure in terms of travel?
And I'm going to ask you that just in terms of when I first started traveling for business, I thought it was the best thing ever.
I get to travel the hotel.
And then within about six months, it was like, oh God, who can I pay?
Which church can I join?
Against all my beliefs to get someone to travel for me.
Some people just like to travel and I, because also I'm a light sleeper and have trouble adjusting to time zones, it becomes just exercise and exhaustion.
So what's your preference in terms of travel?
Because there are certain, like if you become a public speaker, there's going to be a lot of travel versus a psychologist where it's much less.
I think it would be pretty taxing on me.
I think I'm probably like you in that regard, that I would enjoy it initially and then eventually hate it.
Oh yeah, look, the three cities in four days is just...
And I find it very stressful to travel because I'm not particularly well organized, except in my thoughts or my fantasies, some might say.
But it's less fun for me because I'm always like, oh, where's my ticket?
Am I in the right place?
Am I in the right gate? I'm so distracted by thoughts running through my head that it's not very good for me to...
I'm not a very relaxed traveler from that standpoint, whereas some people are more relaxed.
So that's just another sort of consideration to have now.
What is your level of comfort or pleasure in terms of public speaking?
I won a couple of awards in high school for public speaking, and I was on the radio.
But I find it difficult, but I think less difficult than most people do.
Difficult, of course, right?
Going to the gym can be difficult, but the question is, what is the reward for you emotionally?
Uh... I'm not really a natural performer.
I don't think I get that performance high, but I don't see public speaking as something that I really want to avoid.
So if it came along, you would do it, but it's not something that you'd want to base your career around?
Yeah. I don't really find it...
I don't really think it's a plus or minus for me, it's just work, really.
Which I think is unusual, because most people hate it.
Or they love it, right?
I mean, one of the two. Okay, well that's very interesting.
And do you prefer to work alone, or do you prefer to work in a group setting?
Wow, these questions are tough.
Sorry to interrupt, but by that I will assume that a group of like-minded people, not like you want to join at the post office or something.
Right. Well, I'm pretty introverted, so I like to be alone most of the time, but...
But I also like being part of a team.
Well, no, that's fine. I mean, it's good to know what your capacities are, right?
And likes and dislikes and so on.
So what we're trying to do is to sort of give some shape to the decision-making process of where it is that you want to go, right?
Because you don't want to invest another two years and a quarter million dollars in...
Expenses and lost income to find that it's not the right thing for you either.
And these questions aren't going to be able to determine that for certain, but they certainly will be able to reduce the odds of making another mistake.
Not that this is particularly a mistake where you are, right?
It's just sort of where you were, but that's what these...
So there's no definitive answers.
It's just a way of being able to balance the questions.
I completely lost the question for you there, didn't I? I'm so sorry.
So you're comfortable in a group or in an individual setting, so it's not a negative for you to work in a group, but you also don't mind working alone.
Yeah, I don't think I could work on the floor of the stock exchange or something like that because it would just drain me too much.
But I like people when I can sort of control when I come and go sort of thing.
Got it, got it. Now, when it comes to interacting with people, and this may be a little bit more theoretical, but when it comes to interacting with people in terms of trying to help them think more clearly or trust their instincts more or become happier, do you think that you would prefer a shorter term exposure to them, or would you prefer to work with them for months or years?
Sorry, just to clarify that a little bit more.
My wife is fantastic at working with people in the long term.
I would be terrible at working with people in the long term.
So, you know, like this conversation.
Really? Oh yeah, no, for sure.
I mean, if I had to see a patient for, if I was a psychologist and I had to see a patient for a year, I'd go completely mental.
But I can bungee in and give people some useful stuff.
So I prefer working with people in the short term.
And so there are some people who will do like a weekend seminar or whatever, right?
And they come in 16 hours with them or 12 hours with them or whatever.
And then they go off and do their thing.
And then there's other people who prefer working with, you know, they might work with a guy for two years or three years, right?
So do you have any particular preference that way?
I think I could do either, but I think I would prefer long term.
Okay, that makes sense.
That makes sense. Now, With regards to academics, right?
Because there's ways of achieving...
I think we're zeroing in, and let me know what you think, but there's ways of achieving things which involve more of the entrepreneurial go-out-and-make-it-happen kind of thing, and then there's stuff where you go and you get accredited, and you get your PhD in psychology or your master's in psychology,
and then you are less entrepreneurial, and the big distinction here is that If you're accredited, then you can be paid by insurance companies, which allows people to come and see you without as much financial strain.
But of course, you can just set yourself up tomorrow as a psychotherapist or some non-regulated term and just start advertising that I'm a talking dude that'll make you feel better.
So, in terms of accreditation versus initiation or just brute force willing it on people, which do you think you would be happier in?
I think accreditation.
Just because I hate calling places to try to get business.
I've tried that before for a summer company and it was just awful.
Well, it is tough. And I certainly remember when Christina started Meadowvale, she was not at all pleased about going into the doctor's offices to flog her wares, so to speak.
And that was easier for me to do because I've done it before and didn't mind it.
So that's an important thing to understand as well.
There is a kind of...
Almost radical insouciance in saying, I'm not accredited, but believe me anyway.
And I mean, I'm not sure, I mean, if I only had a high school education, say, I'm not sure that I would not feel a bit more reticent about, like the fact that I've been to grad school and got a master's from an Ivy League school doesn't hurt in terms of...
In terms of what it is that I'm trying to do here.
And of course, in a way, if I had a PhD in philosophy from Harvard, what I'm doing with Free Domain Radio might be even less credible, because then it would be, well, why aren't you a professor, right?
So I sort of got the perfect balance in that standpoint.
So it sounds to me that you would prefer to work with people, and I'm guessing, since this is the kind of stuff that you're interested in, that you would prefer to work with people in the realm of ideas rather than medicine.
Yeah, definitely.
So psychology would be preferable to psychiatry?
Definitely, yeah.
Okay, okay.
I have some experience with psychiatry and did not like it.
No, I think it's a pretty brutal occupation at the moment.
It's been pretty perverted number of government initiatives.
So where does this leave you in terms of decision-making?
And again, there's nothing final here.
We're just trying to step through some of the matrix that can help you make a more productive decision.
I think I would be fairly happy being a psychologist.
I just have two concerns about it.
One would be that I would...
Be stuck with people who aren't of the quality of the Freedom Ane listeners.
Do you mean in terms of patience? Yeah.
Right. So, I don't know.
If I was working with alcoholic moms who beat their kids or something like that...
Well, you wouldn't be, though, right?
Because, I mean, just from a practical standpoint...
They wouldn't come. Well, no.
A, they wouldn't come, but even if they did, you can't treat anyone who's abusing a substance.
Okay. Okay. And of course, if somebody was committing a crime, such as beating their children, you would be required to report that to the police.
Okay. Yeah.
And finally, just so you know, there's a filtering process at Free Domain Radio.
As you see every now and then, there's a purge of people who are kind of jerky.
So you have the same prerogatives, of course, as a practitioner, that you can not treat anyone.
You can just refuse to treat them.
You're not bound to treat anyone.
I just want to be careful that I don't have the ideal of having only bright-eyed, young, philosophy lovers as patients, and then I end up with kind of lesser patients, if you know what I'm saying.
Well, yeah, for sure. You don't want to set yourself up to, you know, hey, if I go on the single cruise, it's going to be only supermodels who have...
Yeah, for sure.
You want to be realistic in that, but I think that you've known enough about the world, and you've seen enough of what's going on.
At Free Demand Radio that you know that there's a lot of people out there who aren't going to be productive to talk to, but they're much less likely to call.
Trolls come to a free board.
They don't tend to pay thousands of dollars to a therapist.
The other concern I would have about being a psychologist is I'm not sure I have that natural empathy that I think a psychologist needs.
Okay, so tell me more about what you mean by that.
Well, I think I tend to approach people in emotional suffering kind of stoically.
And would you say that you do that to yourself as well?
Yeah, definitely. And do you think that that would be something you would like to change in yourself, or do you think it's a good approach?
I would like to change it, especially if I have kids, because...
If you remember that young girl that called in that time, when she falls down and bangs her knee, she would run to my mom, not to me, because I would just be kind of like robotically...
I wouldn't have that natural empathy that a kid would like.
Well, you may. You may not.
I mean, it's hard to say in advance of the situation.
But, I mean, first of all, there's nothing wrong with the kid going to mom instead of dad, right?
Yeah. I mean, women are, you know, to be stereotypical, women are generally better at that kind of stuff than men are.
Men do have a kind of empathy, but they also have a kind of impatience when it comes to empathy, and I don't think that's really a bad thing, right?
So the stereotype is that women will talk about all the problems in the world and never solve one of them, right?
And the idea is that men don't talk about any problems but get them solved, right?
So I wouldn't say necessarily that it's a bad thing.
I mean, where is it that you feel that, or by what standard do you feel that that's a bad thing?
Was it something you decided yourself, or was it something that somebody communicated to you explicitly or implicitly?
That's a good question. I think my mom might have communicated that to me.
Well, you know, certain types of women, particularly immature women, are consistently frustrated with the way that men act or interact.
I mean, I remember having a girlfriend years ago.
I'd be on the phone with an old friend of mine, and we'd talk for an hour about politics, philosophy, economics, and whatever, right?
And then we'd hang up the phone, both completely satisfied with the conversation, and my girlfriend would say, what's the matter with you guys?
You don't ever talk about anything personal or anything real.
It's like, but that's personal and real to us.
He was constantly irritated, like, how's his wife doing and stuff?
It's like, well, I assumed if she was in traction, he would have told me, right?
So I assumed she's fine. But there's a lot of, and of course men are the same with women, but there are lots of women who define feminine traits as virtuous or good, and then any man who does not display these feminine traits to a great degree is called bad.
And that's sort of why I wanted to ask you whether or not this thing called empathy had been defined as something you just don't possess, and then you were called deficient for lacking it.
I think... I think I have empathy.
I'm not very good at showing it.
Sorry to interrupt again.
What would it mean to show empathy?
What would be an example of that, where you were deficient?
Well, one example is my mom told me when she was seeing a therapist and she was relating some really tragic childhood events, her therapist actually was crying.
And I just can't ever see myself being able to, well, at the moment I can't see myself being able to display that kind of emotion very easily.
Well, because, and sorry, because you don't feel that emotion, or because you feel it but fear expressing it?
The second option, yeah.
So you do feel that kind of emotion, but you don't express it.
Right. Right. Okay.
Well, yeah, then I think that that would be the case.
And how did your mom tell you about this, right?
Did she tell you about this, like, look at how emotional I can be and you're deficient?
Or was there some other way that she brought it up with you?
Um, it was, I don't think it was, I don't think she was talking about my empathy when she was telling me that.
It was just on the way home from seeing my therapist, we were just talking about her therapy and my therapy and our experiences, so I don't think it was a put-down.
Okay, but you have felt at times that it was a put-down, right?
Uh... I don't think...
I don't think so.
I don't think... But I think in other instances, she has sort of put me down as having a lack of empathy, but not in that...
not there.
And is this a complaint that she also has about your father?
I'm not sure.
Probably, but...
Not that I can...
I can't remember her saying it, so...
Has she ever mentioned a man who she feels has the correct amount of empathy?
Not that I can remember.
And has she ever said, help me to understand what it is that I did as a parent that was deficient to the point where you have less empathy for yourself?
Definitely not. But that's a reasonable question, right?
I mean, if a coach says to a gymnast that he's been training for 15 years, you're not jumping high enough, the coach can't distance himself from that instruction, right?
The instruction that he's given over the past 15 years.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
One thing that she said to me that actually made me pretty angry was, you just don't care about people.
And I was kind of like, well, why do you think I'm in philosophy and I'm actually trying to uncover the roots of problems to fix them?
Wait, wait, sorry. She said to you, you don't care about people.
Yeah. But do you realize what a crazy statement that is, right?
Yeah. Because if you genuinely did not care about people, that would not bother you, right?
So she must think that you do care about people, but she's telling you that you don't.
Why? What were the circumstances that gave rise to that comment?
I was kind of grilling her about religion.
Is she as religious?
She was religious and she raised us religiously, but sort of because of my grilling her, she's become less religious.
And since she divorced my dad about two or three years ago, all her religious friends pretty much shunned her because she got divorced, so she kind of saw how hollow it is.
Ha ha ha ha ha!
So it didn't work for her anymore, and now she's not as faithful.
Right. Right, right, right.
All her lifelong friends were, whoosh, gone.
Now, when you use the term grilling, is that your term or your mother's term?
That's my term.
And why do you say it's grilling?
Because there's some anger in it being raised religiously.
Okay, so I mean, you definitely care about that and you feel that there's some hypocrisy in your mother's approach, right?
Oh, definitely. So she could give up religion when she didn't like it anymore or when it didn't work for her anymore or when her friends shunned her, but you weren't allowed to give up religion when you didn't like it, right?
Definitely not. Okay, so when you are asking her these questions, what's her reaction?
Um... Well, she said sorry for raising me religiously, but I don't feel it emotionally, really.
Okay, so why is she saying sorry?
And I'm sure you're right, right?
So she's saying sorry as a way of getting you to stop bothering her about it, right?
Could be. Could be.
That's probably it.
Well, what does she, okay, so you say, I didn't appreciate being raised religiously, and she says, I'm sorry, but why is she sorry?
Is she sorry just, well, I'm sorry you don't like it, or is she, like, I'm sorry because there is in fact no God, and I was just being conformist, and I inflicted it on you?
Right, exactly.
She said she's sorry for forcing me to go to church, and she was conforming to her friend's beliefs and stuff like that.
Okay, and now, of course, the interesting thing is that she then calls you, she says that you don't care for people, right?
I think she was saying that about, because I don't display the emotion.
Now, did she display emotion about God in the past?
In what way? Well, did she claim that God loved her?
Did she have any kind of emotional attachment to church?
Or was it entirely, like, even down to fear, right?
Fear of, she must have gone to church for some emotional reason, because there's no rational reason to go, right?
So what was the emotions that for her were bound up in the realm of religion?
I think, well, we were talking about it recently, and she said she sort of saw God as like a superhero that protected her.
And I think the other half is conformity.
Okay, so she had a kind of fantasy of comfort and protection, and she also had a fear of disapproval, which she then projected to a metaphysical creation called God, or something like that, right?
So it would seem reasonable to say that she taught you that emotions can be entirely false and manipulative.
I guess so. It can be.
I don't mean that they always are.
But certainly in the example of your mother, she felt that God was there to protect her and she felt a fear of criticism from others.
And so what she taught you when you were growing up was that emotions are simply things that you use to manipulate others and reduce your anxiety.
Yeah, you're spot on.
Right, so when she was dragging you off to church because of her own needs and her own anxieties, it could scarcely be said that she was caring for you, right?
Mm-hmm. That is...
Yeah, you nailed it there.
That's... I kind of see emotions as manipulations...
Sure, sure. And so you were taught that emotion—and again, I'm simplifying it.
I know that there's all the shades of gray in the universe, but we'll just simplify it for the moment.
You were taught that emotionality was a manipulative and bullying and moral tool, right?
Because you were taught to go to church because it was good to go to church, right?
Your mom didn't say, go to church because I'm afraid I'll get criticized if you don't.
Yeah. Right?
Because God exists and he's good and you should go.
It's moral or whatever. So, when your mother says that you seem to lack a certain kind of emotionality, it would seem to me that what she's saying is, you don't manipulate other people the way that I do.
Right? So it's a nice compliment, really.
Yeah, absolutely, right? I mean, if that's what she believes emotionality is, right?
I mean, has she inquired as to your emotional experience of being told to go to church?
Has she inquired as to the long-term effects that that's had on you?
No. Right, so it's still all about her, right?
I guess so, yeah.
Well, I mean, I'm certainly willing to hear arguments to the contrary, because when you say, I guess so, you've come to some conclusion, right?
You're right, yeah.
I mean, if she hasn't shown any curiosity about the emotional effects that this has had on you...
being curious, and therefore she can't really be empathizing with you.
Right.
So if she only has the capacity to, quote, empathize with herself, which is another way of saying narcissistic manipulation of other people for the sake of reducing personal anxiety, or achieving an illusory goal of happiness, right?
If that is her definition of empathy, then when you say to yourself, maybe I lack the empathy that is required, what you're saying is, I may not be a good therapist because I won't exploit my patients.
Yeah. Because, I mean, the reason that I sort of wanted to talk about this and drill into it in a bit of detail is that in families, as you know, you've probably heard some of the mythology podcasts, and I know you have a copy, of course, of On Truth...
You know, we get mythologies placed upon us in families, right?
So we're children, and, you know, we're the troublemaking one, we're the difficult one, we're the nice one, we're the good one, we're the responsible one, and you have had a particular label placed upon you called the, you know, the kid who lacks empathy, or something like that, right?
The robot. The robot, right?
And I think, certainly from my experience, The ability to make somebody else cry does not mean that you have empathy.
It means that you have self-pity, and maybe your therapist has self-pity as well.
But I mean, I've had people in movies make me cry, But that doesn't mean that they have empathy for me.
It just means that they're good at acting, right?
I've had onions make me cry.
It's not like the vegetable has a big amount of empathy for me, right?
I mean, that's not the definition of empathy, right?
The definition of empathy is sensitivity towards the emotional states of other people.
Not yourself. Not yourself.
If you're only sensitive to your own emotional states, that's called narcissism.
And so the fact that your mother calls you a robot or cold or unempathetic means that she does not have empathy to your emotional state.
And so what she is actually doing is called projection, wherein we blame others for our own shortcomings.
So how do I remove the feeling that I'm being manipulative when I express emotion?
Just by knowing?
Or just by practice?
Or... Well, you use the real-time relationship, right?
So let's say that you're talking to someone, and you express an emotion, and then you say to that person, how did you feel when I expressed that emotion?
And try and be as honest as you can, and then if that person says, you know, I felt kind of manipulated, then that would be a good indication.
As long as you feel that they're being genuine, right?
But you test it, right?
Like anything else. You subject it to empirical observation.
But the first thing you have to do is break free of the mythology that you are a cold and unemotional person, right?
Right. Because that's just a story, and that's, of course, a more accurate description.
Anybody who says that to a child, especially the parent, is in fact a cold, manipulative, and unempathetic person.
I'm surprised we came here from CareerAdvice.com.
Well, no, no, but this is the core of the career advice, right?
Because it could well be that the reason you ended up in computer science is because you felt that you were an unempathetic person and maybe technical discipline would be the best thing for you.
Yeah. So it could well be that this is the mythology that got you into your current career, which then, through your involvement in this conversation, you've managed to find a buried aspect to yourself, or you could say a non-mythologized aspect of yourself.
But, of course, if you go into the realm of therapy with the definition that you are an unempathetic person, that is going to make what could be a very pleasurable experience kind of an uphill battle because you'll be fighting your mother's cold, ghostly voice in your head the whole time, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it could be entirely possible that you are by far the most empathetic person in your family.
But what you empathize with, when you empathize with someone who's cold, you feel cold, right?
Right.
So the fact that you don't feel that much with regards to your family might be an indication that you are the most empathetic person there.
I also think it would be pretty destructive if I continue to see emotions as manipulative while I'm a therapist because I would just feel like all my patients were manipulating me all the time.
Well, but to some degree you would be correct, right?
Because one of the reasons that people do go to therapy is because they don't know how manipulative they are, right?
But you need to be aware of that and not reject it, right?
Because you need to be empathetic towards the manipulation.
And right now, you're not empathetic towards your mom's manipulation.
What happens is you're empathetic towards your mom's mythology, but you've got to go to the next step and be empathetic to what's really going on, not just to what her story is about what's going on.
Okay. And how do I do that?
More therapy? Well, again, it's not to pound a dead horse, but it's the real-time relationship.
You sit down with your mom and you say, Help me understand what you mean by cold and unemotional.
And then you tell her, you give her the running commentary, the subtitles, of what you're feeling when she says stuff, right?
So when she says, well, you just don't empathize with people.
It's like, well, tell me what that means.
Because it seems to me that when you tell me I just don't empathize with people, you're not empathizing with me.
Right. Like, it doesn't feel good.
I don't feel encouraged.
I don't feel... For your role as the parent in coaching me about my emotional life.
Okay. Right, clearly a woman who's gone through a divorce may not be, or anybody who's gone through a divorce should have some humility with regards to their own emotional skill set.
Right. And also, you know, you can describe to her your feelings of your experience with her, right?
Like, you know, you say that you're sorry, but I don't get it emotionally.
You know, because when people say you're not empathetic, what they mean is, you're not responding in the way that I want you to when I manipulate you.
Okay. You know, it's like the TV set that doesn't quite work.
You just bang it. And that's what calling names in families is almost always...
You're supposed to be a little love and approval robot.
You're not giving me the love and approval I want, so I'm going to just bang you around the head a bit, either verbally or physically.
But I would start with the assumption that you are not...
Broken, right? I would start with the assumption that you are a healthy young man and if you don't feel something, there's a damn good reason for it.
Okay. Because if that problem were solved for you, if you were genuinely aware or believed or had evidence for your own capacity for empathy, Then the possibility of being a happy psychologist, whether at the Masters or a PhD level, would be that much greater, right?
Right. But if you feel like, well, I could be a good research therapist if I got to work with rats and spiders, but with human beings I'd break them with my icy hearts or something.
That wouldn't give you the tombstone that you're looking for, right?
What's good with spiders is not what we want on our tombstones, right?
Right. His rats made it through the maze the quickest.
But yeah, I would say just based on a small amount of information, and of course this is all subject to your review and acceptance with whatever works for you, but it doesn't sound to me like your mom has empathy for you.
And it doesn't sound to me like she has the capacity to be curious about others.
So that is your template.
And you can't empathize with a narcissist because a narcissist will only use your emotions to control you, to have you serve her needs, right?
So empathizing with a narcissist in a real way is rejecting the narcissist's manipulation, because you get what's really going on underneath.
If you empathize with the surface of the narcissist's feelings, like your mom's therapist did, then you will feel a certain kind of emotionality, but it won't be real, because it doesn't sound like she is really warm and supportive of you, and therefore, if you lack a certain kind of emotionality with her, that would seem to me to be entirely rational.
This is complicated stuff.
And what's complicated for you?
Just all this below-the-surface type of things.
Well, I don't know that...
I mean, I know it seems complicated, but it's just UPB, right?
I mean, if somebody says...
If somebody hurts you by saying you're not empathetic, then clearly they're not empathizing with you, right?
Right.
If somebody gives you a correction that doesn't make you feel positive and motivated, then they're not trying to help you.
I don't know if you read any of the stuff, Nate posted on the board some stuff where this guy was criticizing this definition that we work with of love being the involuntary response to virtue.
And this guy was just being dismissive and saying, oh man, if I was to write a dictionary, you'd be the last person in the world I'd come to and was insulting and this and that, right?
And I was just saying, well, don't debate with the guy.
It's like, oh, but what if he's right?
It's like, well... That's like saying, you know, a guy can stab me and maybe he'll hit a tumor, right?
I mean, if somebody helps you by sort of, quote, hurting you, it's so accidental that you'd never do it.
And there are people out there who can help you in a positive way, right?
So this is just UPB, right?
Somebody who hurts you by telling you the truth is not being empathetic, right?
And so if they criticize you for lack of empathy and it feels bad, then you say, well, it feels really bad.
And then they'll say, well, that's only because it's true, right?
And they'll just make you feel even worse, right?
And the real-time relationship is saying, Mom, when you say that, I feel terrible.
It actually made me feel angry.
And you say that too, right?
When you say that, it makes me feel angry.
And then she's going to say, because I've hit a nerve, or words to that effect, right?
Because it's true, right?
And you say, no. Because then what you're saying is that every time I'm told the truth, I get angry.
But when someone says to me, two plus two is four, I don't get angry.
I don't remember getting angry when someone told me that the world was round.
I don't remember getting angry When someone told me that, you know, Washington is the capital of Washington or something, right?
So it's not that I get angry whenever anybody tells me the truth.
I get angry because what I feel is that you're putting me down and trying to be superior and also taking no responsibility for your role in parenting me in terms of my emotional, the result of this, right?
So, yeah, I mean, it would seem to me that if your mom is saying this because it serves her purpose to think that you're unemotional rather than that she is manipulative, right?
Because if we try to manipulate someone and they don't fall into line, we will get angry at them, right?
Yeah. Right?
Like the same way that if you run the counterfeiter's false bill under a scanner, he's going to get upset at you, right?
Mm-hmm. So, for most people, if they are manipulative and somebody's not responding, they will almost inevitably call that person cold and unemotional rather than, you know, you're not falling for my trick.
I guess I should stop trying to be manipulative.
That would be nice if people were just like that.
Well, it would be, but to do that, you have to respect your own emotional apparatus and to understand that there's a good reason why you don't empathize in the way that your mom says you should and that it would be actually really, really bad if you did.
Because you're onto your mom's game, right?
You're onto your mom's number. Deep down, you get it.
which is why you don't respond in the way that she wants.
Okay.
You can't be, I mean, you can't respect that kind of interaction, right?
So, No. You can't feel cared for.
You can't feel that to empathize with.
You can't feel encouraged.
You can't feel like it's a discussion, right?
It's just a judgment. It's a sentence.
You're cold. You lack empathy.
You don't care for other people.
translation, you're not responding to my manipulations in a way that I like, so I'm just going to insult you.
you.
That's not very pleasant, right?
And what are you thinking about what it is that I'm talking about?
Okay.
I just think you're right.
If I talk long enough, eventually I will be.
You shoot a thousand arrows over a hill, every now and then you'll hit a bullseye.
But what is it that you're feeling about this?
Because you've labored under this label for quite some time, right?
Yeah. I just think it's going to be difficult to break out of this label.
Well, no, it's not, right?
And this is where I'm going to be annoying, as I usually am, at least at the times, right?
It's not going to be hard to do it in terms of practically how do you do it.
It's going to be very hard to do it emotionally.
And what you do is you just, as we've talked about, like the way out of the cage is the foggy center, right?
So what you do to break out of this label is you are simply relentlessly vulnerable with your mother and you see what happens.
Okay. So, you know, you sit down with your mom and you say, I feel bad when this happens, I feel mad when this happens, and so on, and you see how well she handles your vulnerability, because she says, well, you're not open to me and that's bad and so on, so fuck it, be open to her and see what happens.
That's the way to break out of the label, right?
If everybody tells me that I'm just cold and this and that, okay, here I'm being open, right?
And maybe it's not convenient to you because part of what I'm open about is being angry and upset about stuff, but you can't claim anymore that I'm not being open or vulnerable, and then see what they do, right?
I mean, if I say to my wife, if you park the car on the left, I'll be perfectly happy, and then when she parks her car on the left and I'm mad, then she's recognized that this was just a manipulation, right?
And so if your mom says, well, you're cold and you don't express your feelings and so on, then you start expressing your feelings and you see what happens.
She should be jumping up and down for joy.
Oh, what a breakthrough. How fantastic.
But you know if you won't, right?
Well, there's only one way to find out, I guess.
Well, you know, but you don't know yet, right?
You know deep down, which is why you don't do it.
But that's the way to break out of this label, is to simply say, okay, let's say that everything you say about me is true, so I'm going to act in the opposite manner, and let's see if that makes you happy.
Sometimes when I'm open, it feels like someone's poking a whole bunch of holes in me and I'm kind of draining out a bit.
Sure, but that's because what happens is you're trying to reach to connect with a narcissist and that means that you're falling off a cliff.
Yeah, and I feel like I have to retreat.
Right, well don't retreat.
Fall off that cliff. Okay.
You know, just keep reaching out until, you know, you can't reach out any further, right?
That's how you get out of these traps, right?
I mean, you're a big guy now.
You can handle falling off the cliff, right?
You couldn't when you were 5 or 6 or 10 or 15 or 18, but you are an adult now, and you can keep reaching out, and you can handle the pain of your mother not responding.
But if you keep withdrawing from that experience, you will never be free of the illusions in this relationship.
It's like touching the hot stove.
It's like, ow, ow, ow.
Absolutely. Except it's not.
It's just an emotional experience and you are strong enough to handle that emotional experience now, right?
Okay. Right?
So you just keep going.
And it's hell.
It's hell. I mean, I don't have to tell you this because that's why you haven't done it, right?
It's hell to do it. It's essential to do it.
And that's why you get closure.
Closure is just certainty. Closure is just another word for certainty.
So at the moment you have a high degree of ambivalence because a good chunk of what you think about yourself is your mother's mythology about you.
So you want to find out if that's true or not.
Which means you just be relentlessly honest, because obviously she'd say, look, I'd prefer for my son to be honest with me, right?
Yeah. And someone would say, well, even if he's upset with you?
And she wouldn't say, oh, well, I never want to hear about that.
She'd say, no, even if he's upset with me, I want him to be honest, right?
Right. So it's like, okay, let's just take you at your values.
Because if your values are objective, then you should value me being honest with you, even if it's upsetting.
But if your values are just manipulative and they're just set up to hurt me, then you should get mad at me when I follow your principles.
Now, you know the answer to that deep down, but it's not conscious for you yet.
And the way to make it conscious is simply to put it to the test.
Alright. If you say so.
Well, no, I'm absolutely open to any other alternatives.
And of course, if there was a less painful way to do it, I'd be keen to do it, right?
but I have not discovered a way to achieve certainty except through vulnerability.
I'm sorry, but this is what your mom would say, right?
Yeah, definitely. She would say that she wants you to be honest with her, right?
Yeah. So, either she's saying that because she genuinely does want you to be honest with her, in which case, even if you're getting angry at her, she should be pleased, deep down, right, fundamentally, or she's just saying that because she's manipulating you, you, in which case she'll be unhappy if you're honest with her in a way that's not convenient to her ego.
But if you get this kind of knowledge with your mom, you will be an absolutely unstoppable force for good in a therapeutic environment.
This is the sword you have to pull from the stone.
This is the beast you have to bring down.
Sometimes it feels like with a toothpick and bad breath.
But this is the fire that you have to go through to become, I think, a powerful force for good in the world.
Because once you get this with your mom, you will no longer be susceptible to it in any form.
With your patients, with others in your life.
And once you get this with your mom, you will never...
I mean, you know, you want to have kids, you want to have a happy marriage.
The gold at the end of this rainbow...
Is that when you get this with your mom, you will never be susceptible to it from any other woman.
And then you will find the exact opposite of this kind of narcissistic manipulation to be that which you desire.
And you will not be putting yourself down in order to serve the narcissistic needs of someone else.
You will end up with the capacity for a very happy marriage and a very different style of parenting.
For want of a better phrase, that you were exposed to, right?
So there's real gold in them that are hills, but it definitely is a lake of fire.
You've got to swim over to get there.
Alright, I will do it.
Keep me posted? Yeah, will do.
Sorry, go ahead. What do you think?
Do you think psychology is a good route for me?
Well, I would listen to this again and go through the criteria.
My particular suggestion would be that I think that the way you should go is because you have – I don't think you need to go through to the PhD level because legally – and you'll have to double-check this, of course, with more specific guidance counselors in your university – Legally, there's no particular difference between PhDs and Masters, the psychologists, and the PhDs another five years, which sort of sucks, right?
So, if you want to practice, you should go to the Masters level, and then you should become accredited, and you should, I think, join...
I wouldn't work in a hospital setting if I were you.
Obviously, it's a public health care system, and as the experience with Christina shows, it's pretty corrupt.
But you could join a group of psychologists and be there, cut your chops for a while, and then you could go into private practice on your own.
And I think that you could do an enormous amount of good in the world.
And this is the heavy lifting that nobody wants to do.
We want to swarm out and vote for Ron Paul and stuff, but there's the heavy lifting of individual interaction that makes all the difference in the world.
This is a multi-generational project, and we're just...
Francis Bacon never got to see the iPod, right?
Just by inventing the scientific method, he never got to see all the fruits.
But we sure as hell wouldn't say to him, don't do it, because you won't see an iPod.
So we won't get to see a free society, but this is the steps that we take that will inevitably get the world to that.
So I think it's going to give you the income that will make you comfortable.
I think it will give you the accreditation that will make you more confident.
I think it will also be a good mix of entrepreneurial opportunities to let that part of your work go into sway.
It will give you the chance to work with people and not with people.
And if you choose to do public speaking, then you can do that but minimize your travel.
So I think it fulfills a lot of the criteria that you were looking for.
And of course you said that you were more comfortable working with people in a longer term environment, which of course would be the case with psychotherapy or psychology in a way that it wouldn't be with psychiatry.
Well, I'm excited to get started.
Thank you.
Thanks for having this chat with me.
Well, I know it was a bit of a detour, as it sort of feels like, but I think it was essential to talk about that aspect of things, but I'll compile this and just let me know what you think of it.
You can put it out, it's cool.
Oh, that's very kind of you. But I'll send you the link anyway.
Just have a link in case there's anything else.
We didn't mention any names or anything, so I think you should be fine.
But just to be paranoid, if you could just listen to it first.
Cool. Sure. All right.
Well, thanks, man. Keep me posted about how it goes.
Thanks to you very much. Have a good day.
Oh, you picked up your book, right?
Yeah, thanks for signing it for me.
I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry that I was stuck holding up some fencing.
But I'll send you just as my thanks for this.
I know it's helpful to you too, but I think this has been very helpful for other people.
So I'll send you the audiobook so you can listen to it as well as having to sit there and read it.
I know you younger generation kids with your iPods.
Oh yeah. Alright, thanks.
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