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Sept. 2, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:34:59

857 Sunday Call In Show Sep 2 2007 (better quality!)

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	Alright, well thank you everybody so much for joining us over here on the magical land of TeamSpeak on the 2nd of September 2007.
	Without any further ado, I'm going to start with a snippet from a very interesting article.
	That is in a magazine called Harper's, which I'm sure you're aware of.
	This is from May 2007.
	It's just that I've been fairly rapid in the bathroom, so I haven't gotten through all the Harper's that I need to, but I did get to this one.
	And this is from an article by a gentleman named Gary Greenberg.
	And it is called Manufacturing Depression, because depression, of course, is a very...
	Large topic in society as a whole, and it is a black dog that seems to bring down FDR listeners from time to time when it's more than 30 or 40 seconds between podcasts.
	And look! I can totally understand that.
	That would make perfect sense to me.
	I know that if Christina doesn't hear a podcast pretty continuously, there's pretty hysterical reactions, which of course you can fully understand.
	They're just agreeing with me on the chat, right?
	Two to three hours without a podcast!
	That's like the guy who just broke the record for holding his breath, right?
	Which was like 15 minutes or something like that.
	So... Oh yeah, okay, sorry.
	So, okay, this is the text.
	This gentleman signed up for a...
	He's depressed because he lives in New York and he writes.
	And he signs up for a depression test, right?
	So a clinical trial...
	Of a depression medicine based on this sort of fish oil omega-3 thing.
	So this is what he has to say and I think it's very interesting when it comes to looking at the efficacy of psychiatric drugs which are the thing.
	Nobody talks to patients anymore in the psychiatric community.
	It's just bend over and I'll make you better with a little pill.
	So this he writes, I'll just read a few paragraphs from his article, which is very interesting.
	He writes, Back on the street, blinking in the noonday sun, I peek into the brown paper bag they have given me.
	The study medicine comes in a pair of plastic bottles stuffed with two weeks' worth of glistening amber gel caps.
	Good name for a band. They look just like regular prescription drugs, but for the sticker that says, Drug limited by federal law to investigational use.
	That seems a little dramatic for something I can get at my health food store, or by eating however much salmon it would take to provide two grams of omega-3s per day.
	But under the agreement we've made that they are the doctors, that I am sick, that I must turn myself over to them so they can cure me, the medicine must be treated with the reverence due to a communion wafer.
	Well, not among us, I guess, but...
	Not that anyone at Mass General would say so.
	In fact, they've designed this study to minimize the possibility that something as unscientific as faith Or credulity or the mystifications of power could be at work here.
	The trial is a so-called three-armed study.
	I have been randomly assigned to one of three groups.
	One group gets placebos in both bottles.
	Another group gets...
	Ah, here we go.
	Eicosapentaenoic acid and a placebo.
	And the third group gets docasahexaenoic acid and a placebo.
	I am, in fact, Latin.
	Only the anonymous pharmacist laboring in the bowels of Mass General armed with a random number generator and sworn to secrecy knows which group I'm in.
	The study will then be able to show which of the two omega-3s has more effect and whether either one is more powerful than a placebo.
	This method is known as the double-blind placebo-controlled design and it provides a way to deal with something that the drug industry would rather forget.
	That in any given clinical trial, especially one for a psychiatric drug, people are very likely to respond to the fact that they are being given a pill.
	Any pill, even one containing nothing but sugar.
	Which is why the FDA requires all candidate drugs to be tested against placebos to try and separate the medicine from the magic to see what the drug does when no one is looking.
	But like a pain in the ass brother-in-law, the placebo effect keeps showing up, curing people at a rate alarming to both regulators and industry executives.
	In fact, in more than half the clinical trials used to approve the six leading antidepressants, the drugs failed to outperform the placebos.
	And when it came time to decide on Celexa, an FDA bureaucrat wondered on paper whether the results were too weak to be clinically significant, only to be reminded that all the other antidepressants had been approved on equally weak evidence.
	And there's a footnote here.
	He says, the advantage of antidepressants over placebos in those trials was an average of two points on the HAMD, which is a depression.
	Hamilton is a depression test.
	A result that could be achieved if the patient ate and slept better.
	The average improvement in antidepressant clinical trials is just over 10 points, which means, according to Irving Kirsch, a University of Connecticut psychologist, that nearly 80% of the drug effect is actually a placebo effect.
	Despite the fact that the placebo effect is the indirect subject of virtually every clinical trial, no one really understands how it works.
	Science designed to break things down to their particulars cannot detect something so ineffable, so diffused throughout the encounter between physician and patient.
	Until there is money to be made in sugar pills, at which point the drug companies are sure to investigate them thoroughly, about the best we can say is that the placebo effect has something to do with the convergence between the doctor's authority and the patient's desire to be well.
	In 2002, researchers observing the EEGs of patients in an antidepressant versus placebo trial stumbled on a pattern of brain activity common to those subjects who respond to placebos.
	Drug companies were very interested in this discovery, not because it allowed them to study the placebo effect, but because it might allow them to identify those placebo responders and bounce them out of the trial before it starts.
	But this relative ignorance doesn't stop doctors, wittingly or not, from using their power as a healing device.
	For instance, they can reshape you in a way that makes you a good fit for the drugs.
	That's what those questionnaires, with their peculiar way of inventorying personhood, do.
	They alert you to what it is in yourself that is diseased.
	Casting your introspection as, quote, excessive self-criticism.
	Your suspicion of your own base motives as low self-esteem.
	Your wish to nap during the afternoon as excessive daytime sleepiness.
	Your rooting hunger late at night as increased appetite and so on.
	So it is a really fascinating article, well worth looking up if you can find it in the archives.
	It goes through the entire process that this guy went through as part of this clinical trial.
	And he actually reveals at the end, I don't think I'm giving anything away, he reveals at the end that he actually saved part of a pill and had it submitted to an industry.
	He was in the placebo group, although he was told throughout the entire period that he was getting better, that he must be getting better, that he seemed happier, that he seemed more positive.
	And remember, this is the government, right?
	This is the government and this is the drug companies.
	The drug companies for the recent old age Prescription drug program spent ten million dollars on lobbying, right?
	The drug companies and the government work very closely together, and I use the word work very loosely, pillage the general population very closely together.
	Prescribing somebody a pill If they are down, it's much better than dealing with their problematic thinking, with their false core beliefs, with destructive relationships that they're in, with their personal history, with all of the philosophical challenges that arise, and psychological and moral challenges that arise from having to deal with people's unhappiness.
	A wise listener recently wrote, and I read it out in a podcast, about how depression is like Holding a brick for days.
	The first little bit is not that painful.
	But then it just gets worse and worse until it becomes unbearable.
	And I think the metaphor is very apt.
	When you use your brain in the wrong way, and what I mean by that is, when you have had poor thinking, poor mental habits, or negative mental habits inflicted on you through abuse as a child, or through poor examples from your parents and teachers, you end up using your mind in the wrong way.
	And holding a brick for days is using your muscles in the wrong way.
	Muscles are designed to contract and then expand.
	Just holding something rigid is not what they're designed for, certainly not for any lengthy period of time.
	So, of course, anything is going to cause you pain if you use it wrongly.
	And if you use your foot to try and break concrete, your foot is going to hurt like hell.
	Because that's not what a foot is for.
	That's what a forehead is for.
	So, I just think it's very, very important for people who are depressed.
	And I'm, look, I'm no doctor and I'm not a psychologist and so on.
	But, my strong personal experience with this kind of stuff, as well as people that I've talked to, is that you need to figure out what you were taught that is causing you to use your mind incorrectly.
	Are you focused on the wrong things?
	Are you focused on shallow things?
	Are you focused on, quote, success or material gain or personal attractiveness from a merely physical standpoint?
	Are you calling...
	A form of cowardice, courage, which is, while I don't confront people, I live and let live, I don't stand up for things because nothing is really true, and this is not particularly true with people who are in this conversation, but nonetheless, it sort of comes to mind that there's this lady on the boards who I did a podcast on recently, and she has this theory That you should not get upset with people who do you wrong.
	And I smelled cowardice in this.
	And I don't mean like she woke up and said, I'm going to be a coward.
	I really don't. I just meant that she didn't want to confront people because it's scary to do it.
	And so she defined what she didn't want to do as bravery.
	She defined, rather than deal with the feelings of cowardice, which I certainly have when it comes to confronting people.
	I don't like it, I think, any more than anybody else does.
	But I think when you define what you recoil from as courage, that's really, really bad.
	And so this lady, she gave an example which I mentioned in the podcast about when she was a kid, and this boy punched her in the face, and she didn't fight back, and she then felt bad for him because he got a detention, and this and that and the other,
	right? And so I did this two-part series on female subjugation that I think is really worth having a listen to, and she listened to those while she was on vacation, and she wrote to me that she was enraged at what it is that I had said.
	So she was so angry at me that she couldn't sleep, right?
	And... So, of course, I wasn't alarmed, because it's not particularly surprising.
	But on the board, I said to her, well, I certainly don't want to have done you wrong, and I certainly don't want to have been insulting, or put you down, or anything like that.
	So, why don't you grab a microphone, and we'll talk about it on Skype.
	It's free, and so on.
	And sadly, she never got back.
	Never came back. She said, oh, I don't have a microphone, and it's a long way to go to...
	Walmart to pick one up and so on, right?
	And of course, when you think about it, right, if she had won a contest for $10,000 that said, all you have to do is get a microphone by tomorrow and call this number, she would have done it, right?
	I mean, she would have done it, right?
	And this is the kind of stuff where it is important to call people on stuff, right?
	So if somebody says, well, if somebody does you wrong, you should not get angry at them, but you should talk to them.
	So then I do something which she considers really wrong, and she doesn't pick up the microphone and talk to me.
	So it's just when people put forward these kinds of values, it's really important to challenge them, not because you want to put them down or humiliate them or anything like that.
	It's far from it. It's because you want to help them understand that if they really have these values, if we really have these values, we should live these values.
	And if we don't live these values, we should find other values that are more consistent with how we live.
	But to live with values on a shelf that you just look at and preen yourself before and say, what a highly valuable and valid and person of great integrity I am.
	Because I have these values.
	But when it comes to real-life situations...
	If we act in the complete opposite, that gap is, to me, depression.
	Or it results in depression.
	And we're taught these terrible values.
	So it's not that it's everybody's fault and I'm not trying to blame people.
	It's just that when we talk values, we are setting a standard for ourselves.
	If we talk values and live the opposite, then we're going to be unhappy.
	We're going to be unhappy.
	It's like if you eat like a supermodel but train like an athlete, if you live in opposition in terms of cause and effect, if you eat like a supermodel, 1,200, 1,300 calories a day, and you train like an Olympic athlete where you need 3,000, 4,000 calories a day, well, something's going to give, right?
	You're going to get sick. And it's very hard for...
	I mean... I mean, I could be being unjust to this woman even now, but I don't think so, because she hasn't contacted me, I think, in about a week or two with anything to do with having this conversation, right?
	And I bet you she doesn't make the connection.
	So she says, if people do you wrong...
	You shouldn't get angry at them, but you should talk to them.
	And then when I do her wrong, as she says, she then gets angry and doesn't talk to me.
	That's the exact opposite of what she claims is the good.
	Exact opposite of what she claims is the good.
	And then complains about not being happy.
	Well, of course. And it probably hasn't...
	I mean, this is not a big elaborate scheme or plan that I put forward in these conversations.
	It's just what naturally happens.
	She wants to free herself from false beliefs as much as I want to free her from false beliefs.
	But it's really scary because it's a lot easier to talk about ethics than it is to do ethics.
	It's a lot easier to talk about values than to live values.
	But if you talk about values and live the opposite and don't even notice it, of course you're going to get depressed.
	Of course you're going to get depressed.
	Because values are for you then a defense mechanism.
	Which means that thinking for you is a form of non-thinking.
	Thinking, for you, is a form of anti-thinking.
	Courage is cowardice.
	Integrity is hypocrisy.
	Virtue is vice. Truth is a lie.
	And of course, it's like working two opposing muscles at the same time.
	Of course you're going to hurt yourself.
	Well, that's all for my introduction.
	Thank you so much for your patience.
	And if you would like to...
	If you have questions or comments or issues, there's no...
	You can sort of mention it in the Skype window.
	I haven't muted anyone.
	You can also use your press to talk, or you can just...
	If you have the voice activation system set up, you can just talk, but...
	All right.
	Yo. My volume good?
	Your volume is excellent.
	You couldn't be a more pleasantly expanding guest.
	Ah, thank you.
	Um, wow.
	I can't believe you made that joke.
	Really? You can't believe it at all?
	Go ahead. Yeah, I know.
	I've been listening to your podcast and it's just zinger after zinger.
	Not zinger like the family zingers you were talking about.
	Or zingers you exchange the waxes more.
	Right, and not zingers like funny jokes either.
	I appreciate your kindness, but go on.
	Well, if you're remembering, I'm Chugaris.
	I hosted you on July 4th on the radio station.
	If you recall my distinctive and pleasant voice.
	Yes. I wanted to talk today about drug use.
	Since I heard somebody come on the Gizmo cast last week, and he kind of brought up marijuana and mentioned it as a...
	An instant communalizer and it's kind of like a quick solution for some people.
	So I guess what I want to talk, I wanted to kind of maybe cross-examine you on your position on marijuana because I'm not really clear on it and I really haven't found a direct source where you've explained it in detail.
	So maybe you can give me a brief summary and then I could jump in.
	Oh, sorry, when I talk about living your values, I really mean for other people, so I don't really like to be cross-examined on stuff that's difficult for me, so feel free to choose another topic, because this was mostly directed at the young lady on the boards, not me!
	So, go ahead. Well, okay, we might as well dive in now and alienate the last three remaining listeners who like me.
	So let's jump into that.
	And let me put forward my own sort of personal knowledge and understanding of these things.
	I have never smoked marijuana.
	I have never taken opium.
	I have never taken ecstasy.
	I have... I was an occasional smoker in my youth.
	I have a drink on occasion, and I am a slave to caffeine.
	Actually, I'm down to one cup a day for the most part, so it's not too bad.
	But I don't really take any drugs.
	I do have a sweet tooth, but that's mostly under control now.
	I think I've given up chocolate and cookies and all that kind of stuff, because, you know, I'm 40, so that's it for fun.
	So... That's sort of my history and so on.
	That having been said, I do appreciate that there's great creativity in drugs.
	Some artists that I like have been heavy drug users.
	So that's certainly there, though that isn't to me a particularly positive argument for it.
	I loathe drugs.
	I loathe drugs from the tips of my toes to the remaining fringes of my mop top.
	I absolutely hate drugs.
	I hate drugs. I don't hate drug users.
	I mean, they may be experiencing something I can never understand and so on.
	But I absolutely, completely and totally loathe drugs.
	I loathe recreational drugs, I loathe hard drugs, I loathe ecstasy, I loathe LSD and heroin and weed and all of this other stuff.
	I absolutely, completely and totally hate it.
	Well, absolutely, completely and totally defending the right of people to do it and that it should be perfectly legal.
	But I really hate, and of course, right, I am a philosopher, and Christina, of course, is a psychological associate, and we're heavily focused on helping people to process reality.
	And drugs, by definition, interfere with your ability to process reality.
	There's no such thing as a higher realm, there's no such thing as universal oneness, although it certainly is the case that drugs will give you that feeling, but it's an illusion.
	It's an illusion, right?
	I mean, you can spin around and close your eyes for three minutes and then feel that the world is spinning, but it's not.
	All the drugs do is mess with your ability to process reality effectively.
	Now, I'm simply talking about recreational mind-altering drugs here.
	I'm a big fan of penicillin.
	I'm a big fan of other kinds of drugs, and I occasionally will take an aspirin if I have a headache.
	The drugs which people take to make themselves feel better, I think, is incredibly destructive to themselves in the long run.
	And, of course, everybody and their dog is going to say to me, no, it's not.
	And this is just an opinion.
	This is just my opinion.
	I don't have scientific proof.
	I have no direct or personal evidence.
	So I merely put this forward as an opinion, right?
	So, there's no point telling me that you have found drugs to be personally wonderful and enlightening.
	Nonetheless, they're still messing with your capacity to process reality.
	And what they're doing is simply messing up with the biochemistry of your brain.
	They're introducing things.
	And look, I'm not talking about...
	People who smoke marijuana because they have to deal with the nausea that is brought upon by certain kinds of radiation treatment for cancer.
	Or people who take marijuana or smoke marijuana because it helps them with glaucoma.
	I'm not talking about it as a medicinal use.
	I'm talking about it as a recreational drug.
	I think that the illusion That's screwing with your system, and drugs are definitely an interference with the system.
	I think the illusion that there's anything that's not just a waste of time and life and brain in that, I think is a terrible illusion.
	And I think people waste a lot of their time and lives getting stoned.
	And stoned people are kind of stupid, right?
	You know, technically, they're like drunk people.
	And then, of course, everyone's going to say, well, but they're not as bad as alcohol.
	Look, I hate alcohol as well.
	I hate people who use alcohol as a crutch, to deal with social situations, to lower inhibitions, to deal with anxiety.
	I hate self-medication of any kind, because you should and must, to live with integrity, confront your demons, not narcotise them in one form or another.
	Novocaine I'm a big fan of, but only for breakfast.
	So... So yeah, I think that the drugs are very bad.
	If I could will them off the planet, I would.
	If I could get every drug user in the world who was using mind-altering recreational drugs to stop, I think that the world would be a much happier and better place.
	I can't believe parents do it.
	And now you can flame away.
	That's my particular opinion.
	Oh, I don't really want to flame it.
	I mean, from what it sounds like, you're attacking the right kinds of things, which is, you know, the drug is the crutch, you know, the use of it, you know, to...
	To exist in social situations, the use of it to elude reality.
	But, you know, you mentioned earlier that a lot of great art and a lot of music has been made under the influence of drugs.
	What is the effect of those drugs that have allowed those forms to be created?
	I mean, is it simply that somebody perceived an illusion of the oneness of the universe and made good art?
	I mean, isn't the definition of good art that which reflects reality accurately?
	Well, the one that pops to mind is the rock opera bit, Bohemian Rhapsody, which Freddie Mercury composed after becoming a big fan of cocaine, which he was on for about 10 years.
	I think as a disinhibitor, of course, drugs allow people to get more in touch with their creative side, right?
	Because a lot of drugs will lower the superego.
	So the self-critical faculty, as an artist myself, I know that it is the self-critical faculty That is the most dangerous inhibitor to artistic creation, right?
	You just have to blindly and sometimes stupidly and sometimes with no evidence believe that you have something of value to say.
	You have to believe that you're a good artist often before you become a good artist.
	And I think that drugs cause a disinhibition or lower the inhibitions of that critical voice that we all have in our heads and allow people to take many more risks than they would have otherwise and through those risks people can then create some great stuff.
	Unfortunately, the people who take a lot of drugs don't tend to have very successful personal relationships, so while I think it's great that art has come out of it, the art could have come out of it through psychotherapy, right, through the disinhibition that comes from self-acceptance and wisdom and self-knowledge, which would have been a more sustainable lifestyle for these people, so the art that comes out of it It's like the poetry that comes out of a war, right?
	I mean, we don't say that the war, that the poetry justifies the war, but it's not a bad thing to have.
	Okay, you also mentioned the illusionary factor, but something I've noticed, I mean, something I've experienced a lot in philosophy is that I'll come across two philosophers who'll say the same exact thing in two distinct It's wild to realize that this is what's going on.
	This is exactly the effect. So I think there's a direct connection between our perceptual faculties and, you know, how we tend to view reality or how we tend to cut up reality and how we chop the pizza, I guess, or chop the onion or however you want to call it.
	So isolating these negative effects, these poor uses that you've just cited, I mean, don't you think that there's some sort of value to the, I guess, different cuts of perception you receive under the influence of certain kinds of drugs?
	Well, but when you are on LSD, right?
	So I remember talking to a guy who took LSD, and he said that he looked up, and the moon was dripping flame, right?
	Now, unless NASA missed something, right?
	It's not that you're perceiving reality differently.
	You are perceiving reality incorrectly.
	I don't think there's any philosophical value in perceiving reality incorrectly other than as a negative example.
	So you say, how is it that we know the difference between our dreaming and our waking state?
	Well, because dream states contradict the natures and properties of reality that we're perfectly aware of when we wake up.
	But you don't have to take drugs to know what it's like to experience non-reality, because that happens for us every single night when we sleep, right?
	So you don't have to take drugs to know the difference between an imagined reality and, you know, quote, regular reality.
	Well, it's not, I wouldn't say that it's an experience of a counterfactual reality, but I mean, in our dreams, the forms we experience in those are products of what we actually experience in reality, and this is something that Descartes observed, you know, so it's not exactly new.
	So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that There are some drugs that put you in a strictly hallucinatory state, and most of the stuff that comes out of those drug experiences are pointless.
	And I'm not really defending the use of extreme hard drugs, but I'm just saying that there is some sort of, not perceptual value, but rather I guess, conceptual value in the types of byproducts of existing concepts that you receive when you're under the influence of these drugs.
	You know, when you come home from a hard day of work, you'll sit in the bathtub or something, and there'll be some steam, and you put on the aromatherapy, right?
	To me, I don't see a distinction between that kind of activity, which gives you, let's say, a mildly euphoristic effect.
	There's no difference between that and the use of drugs.
	We're sure there is. Well, sure there is.
	I mean, because in the one situation, like meditation can help people to relax and so on.
	So meditation will release endorphins and exercise, I know, of course, will release endorphins as well.
	But this is your body's natural production, right?
	That's very different from introducing foreign substances that simulate that issue, right?
	Yes. I guess in this regard, I still don't see a difference because you're introducing an external stimuli, right?
	If that stimuli is achieved via, I don't know, let's say exposure to flashing lights as opposed to exposure to a chemical...
	Well, no, no, no, look, look.
	There's a difference between a voice in your head and a phone call, right?
	Yeah, okay, you could say that.
	I could say that or there is a difference?
	There is a difference, but I think there's sort of this analogy because maybe the question at hand is you're talking about our body's natural state, our body's natural responses.
	If you create external stimuli to manipulate your body's responses, how is that different in principle than introducing a new chemical?
	I mean, unless you have a scientific...
	Sorry to interrupt, but the reason that I asked you if there was a difference between a voice in your head and a phone call is that a voice in your head is internal stimuli.
	You know, when you have these debates with yourself, should I or shouldn't I, whatever.
	Should the donation to FDR be one kidney, a firstborn, or 500 bucks, the latter.
	I mean, when you have those debates, then those are voices in your head, and we're aware of that, and that's an internally generated state.
	But when we pick up the phone and we put the phone to our ear, and somebody else is talking to our mind, that is something that is being introduced to our system from the outside, right?
	That is auditory reality that is being introduced into our system from the outside.
	There's a difference.
	Fundamentally, between causing yourself to relax from a psychological standpoint and then finding that your fight-and-flight mechanism relaxes and you're pumping out less adrenaline and your adrenal glands are getting less exhausted and so on, right?
	There's a difference between learning how to relax yourself and calm your system down, which is all an internally generated state, and Introducing chemicals that directly affect your sense perceptions and reality from the outside.
	I mean, it's just your natural production.
	There's a difference between your body producing blood and doing blood boosting, like injecting blood from other people to get better performance.
	There's a difference between working out and gaining strength and then pumping, like taking steroids, injecting steroids and gaining strength, right?
	I guess it's just the intentionality of your...
	I mean, you turn the lights low, let's say, to relax, or, you know, you change...
	If you manipulate your environment heavily enough, it just seems like there's the same level of intentionality and direct effect that there are with drugs, which is why the government, you know, did all these tests, you know, both with drugs and then also with all types of other stimulus.
	Like, that's why the interrogators will shine a light in your face, you know, because it makes you more likely to tell the truth.
	So I guess I'm just seeing that there's a...
	It's still physical manipulation, no matter which way you look at it.
	It just happens to me that the direct...
	No, no, no. With all due respect, I have to completely disagree with you, and this is not...
	We're not in the realm of opinion anymore, right?
	Because we have objective fact to appeal to.
	So, for instance, if getting into a hot bath and doing all that metrosexual stuff you were talking about, not that there's anything wrong with that, I've been known to take a relaxing bath myself, but if you could get the same effects From having a warm bath that pot gives you, tell me this, why is there pot?
	Why would people pay 30, 40, 50 bucks for marijuana if you could get exactly the same effect from a warm bath?
	If you could manipulate yourself into having the same effects as a drug, I guarantee you that drugs would not exist.
	Maybe they require a different level of input.
	Maybe it'll take weeks or months of discipline and meditation to achieve centeredness.
	I'm just making this up.
	Maybe it would take much more work than it would to simply go buy a dime bag off the street.
	Oh, I agree with you completely.
	I agree with you completely.
	That's why I hate drugs.
	Because people, if they're anxious, if they have problems, if they're ill at ease with themselves, if they have anxieties, if they have phobias, if they have a lack of ability to relax and enjoy themselves, they should deal with that.
	At a spiritual, psychological, philosophical level, they should deal with that, with those negative thoughts that are going on.
	You don't just firebomb aspects of your personality out of the way because they're inconvenient.
	I'm not saying you suggest that, but you don't just say, well, in order to feel happy, I'm going to take a drug, and then say that that is a good and wise and productive decision.
	It's not. Right, in that regard, I don't disagree with you at all.
	Okay, but now I guess what I'm trying to say is that you did cite, I guess, some sort of tangentially positive effects of drugs.
	Let's say somebody does have these things under control.
	Let's say they're not firebombing their issues out of the way.
	They know how to relax. They know how to know, et cetera.
	I mean, can this person justify to himself the use of drugs?
	I mean, I don't think so.
	I mean, of course, you can do anything you want.
	You justify whatever you want.
	I don't think that there is a reasonable justification for using drugs.
	And that's partly because they're illegal.
	I mean, at a sort of functional level.
	I don't mean at a sort of fundamental level.
	But at a functional level, right, I mean, bad stuff can end up in drugs, right?
	You don't know what the heck's in there.
	It's not like labs have certified it because it's illegal.
	It's expensive, it's illegal, and of course the risks of getting caught, the risks of going to jail and all these kinds of things.
	The fact that people are still willing to spend all of this money, still willing to risk putting unknown substances with unknown quality controls into their body, That indicates to me that anybody who takes drugs is not processing decision-making, let alone being thrown in jail, ending up with a permanent criminal record, which is quite a hamperance in the modern economy.
	Not to mention supporting the criminal underworld.
	I support the legalization of drugs, but anybody who thinks that drug runners in the modern world are really great people, you know?
	It's terrible. I mean, the economy that you're supporting when you buy drugs is absolutely wretched and brutal.
	It exploits children. It exploits women.
	It supports tyrannical foreign governments.
	The proceeds are used to buy weapons, fund terrorism.
	I mean, so you put all of this together, and people throw all of that out of the window because they want a high, that says to me that there's not a sensible way to self-justify the taking of drugs.
	Okay, well, to then drop the context of the current black market economy, let's say you grew it in your own house, or you produced it in your own house.
	But it's still illegal, right?
	You could still go to jail.
	Like, you could still go to jail.
	Right? That's why I say I can't believe that parents smoke pot.
	Right? Because what are they going to do if they go to jail?
	It's incredibly irresponsible.
	It's incredibly irresponsible. Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, because it's incredibly irresponsible with regard to their children and even themselves to some degree.
	But beyond that, isolating those factors, let's say you're rich and you know that you have the ability to avoid a jail sentence and you can grow it in your own house and you're not supporting the black market, what then?
	Well, we could go one step further, right, and say that what about in an anarcho-capitalist society where drugs are perfectly legal and there's no black market that you're funding, I mean, and it's perfectly safe, and I'm perfectly willing to go all that way, right, because people are going to say, well, what you're citing is an example of a statist society, which I fully agree with.
	So let's move to Ancapistan.
	We'll go forward 143 years until the Freedom Aid Radio Society has been implemented.
	Okay. And we can say that it's perfectly legal, it's perfectly safe...
	Sorry? Okay.
	It's perfectly...
	Oh my God.
	Oh my God. Oh my God.
	You guys are on drugs.
	I think I just muted that person who was making all that nice.
	Just suck my dick.
	Oh, okay. Sorry, that's not something we can really do on the air.
	So, we can go forward 143 years and we can talk about the situation where it's all legal and so on.
	Still, what you're doing is you're voluntarily introducing substances into your body which mess with your sense of reality and our brain and our bodies are specifically designed to interact productively and positively with reality.
	And you've made that choice rather than to deal with whatever is creating anxiety for you.
	Or even if you just say, well, I only take drugs to achieve more happiness.
	Well, what's wrong with achieving more happiness through more virtue?
	Virtue is what makes us happy.
	Courage, integrity, honesty.
	That's what makes us happy.
	So if people just say, well, I could either live a better life, be more virtuous and have more courage, or what I can do is I can just inject some biochemical substance into my body and get the same.
	I mean, it's just... You know, that's like saying, no woman will love me, but if I slip some drug into her drink, then she'll think I'm great.
	It's just not a productive place.
	What you want to do is you want to be someone that a good woman will love.
	You don't want to just pick some woman and drug her and then think that's love.
	And in the same way, you want to look into your mirror and say, I am a person that I am happy to be and respect being and I'm happy to do what I'm doing and I'm proud of what it is that I do.
	Not drug yourself into feeling good.
	It just seems like it's not like if you take drugs that you can't necessarily wake up in the morning without being high and not look in the mirror and feel the same way.
	I think it's kind of like what you're saying almost implies that if you take drugs, there's automatically a deficiency in your regular life.
	Well, there's no question of that.
	I mean, that's just logical, right?
	And I'm sorry, I don't mean to say that you're not being logical, but this is just my perspective.
	There's absolutely no question that if I go for a raise in my job, that I want more money.
	Is that fair to say? Yeah, that's fair.
	And if I'm perfectly satisfied with the amount of money that I'm making, then would I go for a raise?
	I mean, you wouldn't. No, you wouldn't, right?
	So, if I'm perfectly happy...
	I'm sorry, that's just whack loads of echo.
	Do you have mic and speakers running at the same time?
	Oh, yeah, sorry. Let me just move my speakers.
	Yeah, switch to headphones. That'll save.
	But if I'm perfectly happy with the amount of money that I'm making...
	Then I will not ask for a raise.
	And if I am not happy with the amount of money that I'm making, and I want more money, then I will ask for a raise.
	And so, logically, if someone is taking drugs, they are immediately saying, I am not satisfied with me in my natural state, and I wish to improve my experience of myself and of the world, but primarily of myself.
	So there's no question that if somebody is taking a drug, they are attempting to remedy a deficiency in their life.
	I mean, in the same way that if I go out and buy an mp3 player, it's because I want to remedy a deficiency in my life, which is that I don't have an mp3 player, if that makes sense.
	I do not see his...
	No, we're good, we're good. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, so if somebody's taking a drug, without a doubt they're attempting to remedy a deficiency through biochemical means.
	Just give me a moment here.
	Sorry. Sorry, you just lighten up.
	Don't bogart that man!
	Hey, I'm gonna try to avoid giving good air here, so...
	Sorry. Eventually somebody wrote, Steph's voice will permanently be the voice in our heads.
	Absolutely. Donate.
	Donate. Donation time.
	Come on. Look, I'll keep doing this until you come up with a...
	Dead air is even better than that.
	Speaking of the Siphon in the head, after listening to so many podcasts in my car, it's almost like when I sit in my car, I automatically hear your voice.
	I think that officially now I'm Kit.
	You know from Knight Rider, the car that spoke to people?
	Oh, right. Your door is ajar.
	No, it's not. It's a door.
	Anyway, go on. Another zinger right there.
	So... Your logical argument seems very tightly knit, and it makes sense.
	I mean, obviously it's tightly knit because, you know, you wouldn't put out an argument if it wasn't or if it weren't tightly knit.
	I like to think of it as sooner or later one of my arguments has to be tightly knit.
	This just happens to be the one, so go on.
	Right, so I think maybe our center of dispute here lies in the fact that Drugs are a distinctly separate kind of activity or entity than anything else that you would consider to be a valid means of improving happiness in your life.
	Well, I mean, there's manipulations of biochemical states that can occur from other things, right?
	So a lot of people take comfort in food, right?
	So a lot of people, when they're anxious or upset or stressed, a little bit more on the feminine side of things, but certainly not in my household, but That people take enormous comfort in food and they use the sort of drugs that the body releases upon the reception of certain kinds of sugary or salty or fatty foods.
	That is how they manage their moods.
	I'm not just talking about pot here.
	I'm talking about any time that you manipulate your internal state by introducing foreign substances into your body.
	So, that's something that I think, I guess that could also be women sleeping around.
	But anyway, there is, to me, it's not just drugs.
	I mean, it's small.
	People also do this with cults or with collectives, right?
	Or what they do is they'll join a group for the high of getting along with everyone and getting the approval of everyone.
	And that can also happen in Scientology and Christianity and Islamic worlds and so on.
	So, that's a little bit different because that is a little bit more like taking the bath, but for me, if you're not happy, if there's a deficiency in your experience with yourself, you should figure out whether that's coming from something you should improve in yourself, in which case drugs is wallpapering over a big hole in the wall, or you should say, well, the reason that I'm not happy with myself is It's because I have unrealistic expectations, right?
	So, if I said, if Free Domain Radio, after the first three months of me working on it full-time, if I don't have 500 radio stations broadcasting my show, then I'm a complete and total failure, right?
	Well, then, of course, I'm going to feel unhappy, but if I take drugs, I'm not dealing with the core problem, or even if I eat food, I'm not dealing with the core problem, which is my expectations are unrealistic, that I've got expectations which are a form of self-abuse.
	And I'm attempting to control something that I can't control and all this and that, right?
	So, we had a guy on the board recently who was saying that although he drinks at times to excess and gets drunk, there's no way he's giving up beer just because his wife tells him to.
	Well, you know, I hate that kind of stuff, frankly.
	You know, just don't drink.
	You know, like, just stop. I mean, I'm not talking about a glass of wine at dinner or anything like that.
	I'm talking about people who get drunk.
	And of course, this is common among younger people as well, right?
	So, it's just, don't do that, right?
	Deal with your issues like a man.
	Deal with your issues like an adult.
	Don't just sort of run off into the arms of some biochemical nonsense and claim that you solved a problem.
	I mean, I don't disagree with any of that.
	So, actually, another example I wanted to bring up is exercise.
	A lot of people tend to abuse that, too, and become, you know, And so far because it releases a lot of endorphins and stuff.
	So I guess my point in bringing up exercise is that it can be pretty hard to distinguish when you're doing it for a perfectly valid reason or simply doing it because of the happiness release.
	And I think maybe if I can try to boil down your conclusion, what you should be getting high on, you know, what you should be getting happy on is your own psychological satisfaction of, you know, gaining knowledge or doing the right thing.
	Right. I mean, have you ever been in one of these debates where you're debating with someone and it's just...
	I'm just using an example that we're probably all more familiar with.
	So you're debating with someone and you're just thrilled and you're having a great time and they're intellectually challenging and so on.
	I can assume that you're enjoying this debate.
	I can tell you that I certainly am.
	Well, that's a real pleasure.
	So when I look back over the last 10 minutes of my life, right, of having this conversation with you, I'm watching Christina shoot up.
	When I look back on this last 10 minutes, that's just to stay awake, right?
	But I don't look upon these last 10 minutes of you and say, something was missing.
	I was not happy.
	I was not fulfilled. I was not excited.
	I don't look back on the last 10 minutes of our conversation and say, something is missing.
	Something is missing. Something's not right.
	Something's not working. I'm not fulfilled.
	I'm tense. I'm upset.
	I'm unhappy. Something's missing.
	I could be happier and I don't know how.
	To me, the last 10 minutes, I'm perfectly content.
	I wouldn't want to go back and change a thing.
	So that's sort of how you know When you're sort of happy and content with yourself, and I'm not saying I spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week in that state, but I feel that way the majority of the time, certainly probably 75 to 80 percent of the time that I'm...
	Sorry, in this part the TeamSpeak server shut down just a little bit, but we pick up just a second later.
	So, if I'm saying that something is missing from my life, then I'm going to want to fill that, right?
	I'm going to want to change that.
	And so, for the last 10 minutes that I was debating with Shugaris, I don't look back upon those and say, something's missing, I should have done something differently, I should have been doing something else, I wish I'd been eating a peach.
	You know, that was a perfectly satisfying interaction for me.
	And when you get those kinds of interactions with people, when you...
	Oh, you know what?
	Let me be even more annoying here.
	What is our... Oh good, we're on the right codec.
	Sorry, technical. And that's what you should aim your life towards, right?
	So that you're living in that situation where you are getting as much satisfaction as you can imagine from as much time as you can.
	And that takes a fair amount of engineering and integrity, and for me, 25 years of patience and work, but that's what you should aim at, right?
	And if you take the shortcut, if you take the short circuit, To me, using drugs is like going to a prostitute instead of having somebody love you.
	You're just getting the physical effects of virtue, which is happiness and well-being or joy or whatever.
	You're not actually getting the right cause.
	And it becomes an addiction.
	Because when you make choices to adjust your biochemistry rather than to achieve real joy, happiness, security, self-esteem, peace of mind, and virtue, if you make that choice, you're basically saying, I can't get it by being virtuous.
	I can't get happiness by being virtuous.
	And when you make that choice, it lowers your self-esteem.
	If you say, I can't conceivably get a woman to love me, so I'm going to go to a prostitute.
	Well, that very action says you've just confirmed the diagnosis, right?
	It just makes it worse and worse, and that's why people have a tough time letting go of those things.
	Alright, sorry about that. I'm back.
	I just had to come back in as admin.
	So, alright. That's my sum up of the drug position.
	I was going to do a series of podcasts on it, but why not?
	Listeners are king.
	So, if that's what we wish to talk about, that's what we shall talk about.
	I just know that there are people who, like there are people who are attracted to the anarchist loosey-goosey philosophy because they dislike discipline, right?
	Anarchism for them is a form of rebellion against authority and so on.
	But of course the reality is that it is the state of society that lacks discipline.
	The state of society lacks discipline, integrity and reality because if you fail, you just go on welfare.
	If you decide not to support your kids, other people have to take care of it.
	The anarchist society is one that is fundamentally, in a sense, founded on discipline and personal responsibility because other people are never forced to support you in the way that they are and to support your decisions in the way that they are in a state of society.
	Because in a state of society, everyone's Lindsay Lohan to some degree, right?
	There are no consequences for their decisions, particularly, where, you know, she gets caught driving like a mad witch with cocaine and she gets, what, like a day or two in jail?
	I mean, it's all nonsense, right?
	So, the people who are drawn towards anarchism because they think it's loosey-goosey and anything goes...
	Really not, I don't think, processing the reality of it particularly well.
	I think that they're sort of missing the boat, so that's sort of my other thing that I think is important when it comes to thinking about anarchy and responsibility and drugs and so on.
	Alright, well I think we have put just enough out there to piss off everybody who is into recreational drugs, so perhaps we could start with a new topic and defend Some other people.
	Speak now. Speak now.
	Mothers. Mother, will they help me drop the bomb?
	Mother's gonna make all of your nightmares come true.
	Alright, if you'd like to talk about mothers, we can certainly talk about mothers, but there's not much like me talking about mothers, because I think people have heard about mine perhaps sometimes even more than they would think.
	If you could come up with questions, we have been on the show for about an hour.
	You know that questions are coming, and it sure does help me, because then I don't have to edit out all the dead air later.
	So if you could rouse yourself to come up with a question or two, that would be most excellent.
	It can't be a surprise that I'm asking for them.
	I mean, you know how these shows work, right?
	By the way, thanks for the discussion, Stefan.
	Oh, thank you. It was really great.
	I am glad that you brought it up.
	I guess we might as well get this flame war out of the way.
	Okay, well, I guess if somebody says here, I want to talk, but I have thin walls, my brother would hear everything.
	Can you not go into and hide it down?
	I mean, seriously, can you not take stuff into a pillow?
	Like put a pillow over your head and hide it down?
	Can you not go in the closet and cover yourself in clothing?
	There's lots of ways to muffle the sound, right?
	And I can always volume normalize, as I generally do, so whispers are fine as well, so I wouldn't worry about that too much.
	Right. Okay, well, no problem.
	I mean, if we don't have any other topics, I don't want to...
	I mean, I've done another podcast today, which you might want to listen to, 856.
	So, which was...
	Oh, okay, sure. Go ahead.
	We have somebody who'd like to talk. Hey, Steph.
	Hi. Oh, sorry.
	I thought you might have more to say. I had actually a pretty interesting conversation.
	Kind of a follow-up from last week.
	Okay, sorry. Can you just start again?
	We had a bit of a cutout of audio.
	I'm not sure why. Go ahead. Kind of a follow-up of last week's conversation.
	Sorry, Stephen, I'm going to have to interrupt you again.
	What's happening is your voice is cutting in and out.
	That may be because you have voice activation and you may not have it set high enough.
	Can you just click on Settings, Sound, Input, Output?
	And the voice activation level, you might want to bring it down, or ideally if you click the push to talk, right?
	So voice activation, bring it down to whisper.
	Or if you can click on push to talk and use the control key when you want to talk that way, because right now I'm only getting every second or third word, which won't be enough.
	Is that better? Yep.
	So I have to take the control key when I want to talk?
	Yes, that's right. Okay, okay.
	This is, I guess, a follow-up conversation from last week's conversation and she realized, I suppose, that she was being pretty irrational and tried to apologize and, I don't know, I just didn't really respond very much and Then she asked me, you know, what was wrong and stuff like that.
	I forgot exactly what question she posed, but I basically spilled a lot of what I had been, I guess, a lot of problems I've had with the relationship for the past 15 years.
	Like, uh...
	Like the fact that, you know, physical abuse and, uh...
	Humiliation, that sort of thing.
	Right. She was shocked.
	Absolutely shocked. Sorry, she was shocked that you remembered?
	She was shocked that you didn't like being physically abused?
	Or she was shocked that you brought it up?
	Or, like, what was she shocked about?
	That I was so capable of speaking my mind exactly how I felt.
	I mean, I think I started off by saying...
	I didn't feel like I could ever be authentic around her, you know, and that I was always forced to be happy and, you know, pretend to only have positive emotions and, you know, that sort of thing.
	And now, was she surprised that you experienced that because she didn't believe it was true?
	Or was she surprised that you expressed it and she did think it was true?
	Oh, I think she thought it was true.
	She thought it was true? Like, she thought it was true like it was your experience, or she thought it was true like she did that to you?
	Both. Both.
	She was, I mean, just surprised that I was able to, I guess, capable of telling that to her.
	Right, and look, I mean, I'm not trying to, I mean, what you did is fantastic, like all hail, all bow, bow down before him, but I'm just trying to understand what it is that your mother accepted through that conversation.
	So, You told her, you know, the physical abuse was bad and I don't feel I can ever be authentic.
	Did she say, yes, the physical abuse was bad and yes, I have forced you to never be authentic or I have bullied you every time you've been honest?
	What is it that she said that can help me to understand what her understanding was of what you said?
	She listened for about five minutes straight and Then she said something to the effect of, I don't ever have to, like, forgive her.
	She would understand.
	So she would understand if you never forgave her?
	Yeah. Basically.
	And what do you think she meant by that?
	It's hard to say.
	It's hard to say. It was, uh...
	She's never really said anything like that to me before.
	What was your emotional experience?
	How did you feel when she said that?
	I don't know. I felt, you know, before I told her all that, I felt really anxious about, you know, and I also felt a little bit cornered by the conversation as a whole, but I felt good getting it out there.
	I was kind of surprised by her response that she didn't start, you know, blaming me for having these feelings.
	That was almost what I expected.
	So I was surprised at least...
	Well, sorry, you just cut out at the end there.
	I think that the credit can...
	Accrue a little bit to this conversation, right?
	Because you have a fair amount of certainty that you have inculcated in yourself about your experiences based on this conversation, so people who are bullies or who are violent towards children are very sensitive to what they can get away with.
	It's not easy To abuse a child in the midst of a relatively open society for many years and get away with it.
	So you've got to think of them like they're these expert fish, right?
	They can just amazingly know when to give a little, when to yank in the rod.
	They're like the old man in the sea.
	They're like these expert fishermen.
	So the reason that your mother responded the way that she did was that she knew that to blame you would not work.
	And I think that's credit to you and credit to this conversation to some degree.
	I'd agree with that. I agree with that.
	It's still hard for me to see her as being that good at it, but yeah, I think that that's true.
	Alright, so how did you feel when she said, I wouldn't blame you if you never forgave me?
	I felt she was being authentic, but I think that there was...
	A degree of closure.
	I mean, I still want to leave.
	Okay, so do you think that it's ever possible that you can forgive your mother for the emotional and physical abuse you suffered at her hands for many years?
	No. Okay, so if your mother is genuine, About what she said, then if you go up to her tomorrow and you say, Mom, I've thought it over.
	I have decided that I can never forgive you.
	I really appreciate that you've said that you will perfectly well accept it if I don't, so I'm going to bid you farewell for the rest of my life.
	That scares me.
	Well, sure, then what would her reaction be?
	I don't know. I was surprised enough by this reaction.
	I love it. You know, this is great, and I do appreciate that it's a hard conversation to have, but I still love it that people tell me that they don't know about their parents.
	So, no, of course you know, otherwise you wouldn't be scared.
	First thing you told me was you're scared, right?
	So you know exactly how she's going to react.
	That's a good point. I don't consciously know.
	But you know that you'd be scared, right?
	So what would you be scared of?
	Her disapproval, probably.
	I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
	Her disapproval, probably.
	Well, yes, but... Among other things.
	Do you think that you're such a coward that mere disapproval makes you frightened?
	It doesn't from most people now.
	Right, right. I don't think you're a coward at all.
	I think you're incredibly brave, right?
	And I'm nothing but respect for what you've done with your mom.
	So, when you say to me that I'm scared of disapproval, that's incongruous to me, right?
	It'd be like Mike Tyson saying, I'm scared that Gary Coleman's going to beat me up.
	So, when you think about saying to your mom, well, I appreciate that you said...
	That you will totally understand if I never forgive you.
	I never can forgive you.
	I never will forgive you. I think it would be perfectly wrong to forgive anybody who committed such crimes against a child.
	I won't turn you in.
	I won't throw you in jail. But I never want to see you again for the rest of my life.
	Bye-bye. Right?
	The emotional reaction that sits in you immediately comes from your correct assessment of the situation.
	So, when you hear me say those words, what do you picture in your mom?
	Rage.
	Go on.
	I don't know how much what else I picture.
	I think that she would be sad also, but definitely angry.
	Right. Okay, so earlier you said to me, and again, I'm just nitpicking because this is just minor corrections on a magnificent job, but you said to me that you thought she was authentic when she said to you that she'd be perfectly, and she would perfectly well understand if you never forgave her, right? I did say that.
	And this is what you thought.
	I mean, I'm just pointing out that if I say to my employee, I'm perfectly content if you quit, And then they say, I quit.
	And then I assault them?
	Might it not be...
	Might my earlier statements not be cast in doubt somewhat about me being perfectly fine if they quit?
	Definitely. Right?
	So, I think from this standpoint, and this is just combing over, right?
	Let me tell you something that you know unconsciously, but it's hard for you to process consciously.
	If you have spent year upon year upon year abusing a helpless little boy, you can never ever be authentic.
	You can never ever be honest.
	You can never ever be intimate.
	You can never ever treat anybody with concern, empathy, care, respect, or love.
	There is a price to these crimes that is bottomless.
	When you said to me that my mother was authentic, it was perfectly clear to me, and in time it would be perfectly clear to you, that you were expressing your mother's perspective, not yours.
	Because there's no possibility That your mother can ever tell the truth to you or deal with you in a direct manner.
	Because we have to assume that there's a hierarchy of crime and that beating a helpless child is quite a bit worse than merely lying.
	We don't throw people in jail for lying.
	We damn well should throw them in jail for beating children.
	And so if your mother is willing to do a crime like beat you up for years...
	Is she really going to say, well, but I don't want to tell a lie?
	No, no. Of course not.
	Of course not. How should I, uh...
	How should I deal with those situations when that sort of stuff happens?
	Deal with, uh... Do you mean deal with yourself or deal with your mom?
	Deal with that conversation if a conversation like this comes...
	Well, because there are two aspects.
	This is fairly advanced, but you're cruising along very well.
	So, there are two aspects to any interaction when you talk about dealing with things.
	The first thing is your interaction with yourself, and the second thing is your interaction with the other person, right?
	So, when you're talking about these things with your mom, There's your experience of it, right?
	And you could choose, if you're getting yelled at by your mom, to just nod and say, okay, that's fine.
	I understand. Yes, I'm sorry.
	Blah, blah, blah. You're so right.
	You're so absolutely, completely and totally right.
	You couldn't be more right. I'm going to build a monument to you of pure rightness.
	You are the platonic form of perfection, and you're right.
	And you can say all of that, right?
	And that's appeasing...
	That sounds pretty familiar. Yeah, I mean, we've all gone through that.
	I mean, we've got these kinds of moms and dads.
	Um... You know, can I blend into the wallpaper more so that I don't exist and offend your sensibilities and blah blah blah, right?
	So, that's dealing with the other person and it can be the most effective way of dealing with someone, right?
	However, then what you have to do is you have to deal with your own experience of that person, right?
	You have to deal With your own experience of that person afterwards, right?
	So in this conversation with your mom, you did great.
	I mean, you told the truth and this and that and the other, right?
	But then what you need to do is you need to sit down and say, okay, what was my experience of that conversation in the context of my entire history with this woman?
	Right? So she said, well, she would perfectly well understand if I never...
	Forgave her. Well, what does that mean?
	Does that mean that she recognized that she did wrong, but never brought it up?
	Well, what does that mean?
	If she's known all this time that she's been doing wrong, but she's never brought it up, what does that mean?
	If you'd never brought it up, would she ever have brought it up?
	There's a great difference between confessing and being caught, right?
	You caught her! Oh, yeah.
	She's just hoping to get away with it.
	So there's no real regret there.
	It's like, oh honey, you caught me sleeping around.
	Hey, I'm sorry, you know.
	Hey, I didn't mean to hurt you, right?
	Well, would you have told me if I hadn't caught you?
	This is just another strategy.
	You can compare all of this kind of stuff, and you know all of this stuff in your heart of hearts, right?
	So the important thing is not to figure out how to control your mom or deal with your mom, but how to deal with yourself in relation to your mom, right?
	That's the great challenge. So how's it been for you in the week since you've had this conversation with her?
	I'm sorry, was it a week or shorter?
	This conversation, two days, but it was follow-up of a conversation a week ago that we talked about.
	So what's different in the last two days?
	Between you and your mom. She seems to feel that we've made a lot of progress with our relationship.
	Oh, no. Oh, no.
	I'm so sorry. Oh, God.
	Okay, please go on.
	I'm so sorry. It's not funny at all.
	But she seems to feel that you've made a lot of progress with your relationship, does she?
	Okay, go on. That would be her surface emotion.
	I'm not laughing at you. I'm sorry.
	Go on. With what?
	How the relationship's different?
	Right. On any fundamental level, I don't think that it is.
	She's been just...
	I think she's been kind of...
	Now she's being extremely careful, but I don't think it's for the right reasons, like you said.
	Yeah, because she's caught, right?
	Yeah, she knows where I've been, how I've been feeling for the past five years.
	She's being more sensitive to, I guess, the fact that I am aware of what's going on.
	And what does that mean?
	What would be the ideal response?
	What would she do to be the perfect mom?
	I mean, obviously this is a stretch, but what would be the ideal response in that situation?
	It's too late. I mean, that's how, when I was saying could I forgive her, I was just saying no, because it's like the 10 to 1 thing.
	If she did it now, what would it mean?
	It would just mean that she could have done it at any time.
	Right. But there is a perfect response to this, which doesn't, I mean, there's no possibility of a relationship with your mom, obviously, right?
	But there still is a perfect response.
	Oh my God, I never realized any of this.
	How terrible of me let me get into therapy and try and figure all this stuff out.
	I hope someday you can forgive me.
	me I'll completely understand if you never do you know anything you need 30 here's $30,000 for your therapy Sure, sure. I mean, they are paying for my therapy, so...
	Okay, okay. Here's $30,000 for whatever you want.
	If you need to move out or something like that.
	Yeah, here's $50,000.
	We're going to buy you a condo and hand you the keys.
	We're going to pay for your therapy.
	We're going to pay for your education because we have done you such unbelievable wrong.
	And we're so shocked at what we have done to our precious child.
	And we so totally understand that you want nothing to do with this but to do what we can to expiate the guilt that we feel, the wrong that we have done to you.
	We're going to make the next couple of years, without us around, the happiest and most relaxed and contented that you could conceivably have.
	We're going into therapy.
	You go into therapy.
	We're going to disconnect from all of our friends.
	I'm going to quit my corrupt job.
	I don't know what your parents do, but whatever, right?
	We're going to make a complete change.
	We're going to sell the house, give you half the money.
	We're going to go and move to an ashram and study your navels and become better people, right?
	That's what happens when you realize you've participated in a crime of decades.
	That's what you do. You take responsibility and your actions completely change.
	Sure. But they're not doing that.
	Oh, no, no.
	What are they doing? Same thing as always.
	It's just right on the surface, I mean...
	Yeah, nothing happened. Nothing happened.
	You know what, if we pretend that nothing happened, maybe he'll pretend that nothing happened.
	You know, let's just hide out for a little bit.
	Let's just go on as if nothing happened, and maybe he'll get so disoriented that he'll drop this whole thing.
	Let's just keep sneaking around!
	Let's pretend that nothing happened, and maybe it'll all just go away.
	In some ways, don't I want that?
	Don't I want them to pretend that?
	Well, I don't know. I can't answer that for you.
	Is that what you want? Do you want them to pretend that they never hurt you?
	Actually, no, I do know that you don't want that, because otherwise you wouldn't have said anything.
	Because before, they were pretending that they never hurt you, right?
	And then you went and told them that they hurt you.
	Well, but I was...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, that is an interesting point that you make about why I got into this in the first place.
	You know, my mom, she was asking, you know, why are you so distant?
	And I don't know why.
	I don't know why I told her, but I felt like being authentic with her.
	I felt tired of not being authentic.
	Yeah, that was the right thing to do.
	do.
	The important thing to do now is to process what has happened afterwards.
	Sure.
	And what's happened afterwards is it's like you never said anything, except your mom says, you know, I think this relationship is much better.
	Is it better for you?
	Oh, no, not really.
	Not at all. Right.
	I would suspect... I don't think it's better for her either.
	Well, but you don't know that, and that doesn't matter.
	What you do know, and what does matter, is that she's saying, our relationship is better, and she's not asking, is it better for you?
	That's what I was laughing at earlier.
	That's what I'm laughing at earlier, right?
	Sure. She's not asking if...
	She's saying, our relationship is better.
	Like, for both of you.
	But she's not asking you if it's better for you.
	I mean, if Christina and I were having sex problems, and I just changed something, and I said, hey, our sex life is so much better now than it was before, I mean, wouldn't I have to ask her at some point?
	I mean, I'm sorry to conflate this with your mom, but that's kind of what I was laughing at before, right?
	Can I make a unilateral decision about the quality of a relationship?
	Not a real relationship.
	No! So, now, you're not any more real to her than you were before.
	You don't even need to be part of this relationship.
	See, this is what people don't understand when I talk about defooing, and it's because I've been hedging it a little bit, but we might as well talk about it clearly now.
	Defooing is not breaking from your family.
	De-fooing is recognizing that you have no family.
	De-fooing is not ending a relationship.
	De-fooing is recognizing that there is no relationship.
	Right? If you're thrown out of a plane and then you hit the water and two days later you say, hey, you know what?
	I think I got thrown out of a plane.
	That's not when you de-plane.
	You de-played two days ago.
	Right? You never had a relationship with your parents.
	De-fooing is just recognizing that there never was a relationship.
	That you were just a little wind-up vanity toy for them and that your participation is completely immaterial.
	You don't have to be there.
	That's what's so terrible about these family relations.
	Children go through entire lives of feeling guilty and manipulated and controlled and angry and upset.
	They don't even have to be there.
	The parents don't care fundamentally other than for appearances.
	But you told the truth to your mom because you wanted her to change.
	And what you wanted her to do fundamentally was to ask you about your experience within the family and to keep asking you and keep asking you and keep asking you.
	For her to be even remotely curious about your experience of being her child.
	But she didn't.
	She went on as if nothing happened, and then she said, I think our relationship is a lot better.
	Which is not a decision she gets to make.
	And she doesn't consult you, and she doesn't ask you, she just makes it up for herself.
	That's not a relationship.
	You're like not even an imaginary friend to her.
	You as an individual, I don't mean you as the category son and blood of my loins or whatever, right?
	You as an individual with your own thoughts and feelings do not exist for her.
	And then when I say to people, well, you should stop seeing your family, they say, but we have this relationship.
	But you don't! And how could she have a relationship?
	How can you have a relationship with someone you've tortured?
	You can only torture a child if you have no relationship with that child to begin with.
	You can only torture, beat, insult, cheat, humiliate, degrade a child if you have no bond with that child to begin with.
	You can't hurt someone that you care about.
	I mean, you can do it sort of off the cuff or briefly or whatever, but you cannot have A situation of systematic cruelty towards a child if you have any relationship with that child whatsoever.
	That is not sheer, narcissistic, brutal, sadistic, sociopathic consumption.
	Need. Your needs.
	Your mother's needs. Always.
	Never. Yours. You're not allowed to have needs.
	So, whenever somebody says to me, I was abused as a child, I know that there's no bonding, I know that there's no empathy, I know that there's no relationship, I know that there's no curiosity about the child, I know that this will never change, because people who are capable of torturing a child for many years are never capable of any kind of real relationship.
	It's absolutely, completely, and totally impossible.
	It's like asking a mute to become an opera singer.
	So there is no relationship.
	And there never was.
	And there never can be.
	And defooing is just saying, okay, I accept that.
	I'm not going to lie to myself about that anymore.
	It's like just not going back and...
	Visiting my Legos for Christmas or something like that.
	No, it's like not going back to play with your Legos that blew your fucking hands off.
	And now we'll blow your forearms off and next time we'll blow your arms off.
	Right?
	You're a young man, you really need your hands.
	You're breaking the tension with a good old masturbation joke, is there?
	My wife is too innocent to even know what that means.
	Oh, man. Well, Steph, I appreciate it as always.
	Thanks for helping put that in context.
	No problem, man. No problem.
	Just keep us posted with how it's going.
	And I know this stuff is really tough, but you're doing fantastically.
	Just observe, yeah? You don't have to do a thing.
	You just have to observe your experiences when you are with...
	Your mom and your dad and your family, how do I feel?
	How do I feel? How do I feel when I'm having conversations with Steph and he actually is asking me a couple of questions and really listening to what it is that I'm saying and giving me maybe some useful stuff?
	And how is it that I feel when I'm in the context of these abusers, right?
	How is it that I feel? What's my emotional state?
	Am I guarded? Do I know what I'm feeling?
	Do I know what is going on for me?
	Do I know what my heart rate is at?
	Do I know whether my hands are sweating?
	Do I know whether my spine is tense?
	Do I know whether my muscles are rigid?
	Do I know what it's like to be fully in the presence of these dangerous people?
	That's really interesting.
	That's a good point. Your body is absolutely, completely and totally telling you everything that you need to know.
	The body memory is perpetual.
	The unconscious memory, the body memory is perpetual.
	We have to push that away in order to survive these situations, but you're ready to launch now.
	You can begin to feel it.
	All right. I'll pay a lot more attention then.
	Excellent. Excellent. This will be great because then you'll burst into tears and strangle people with a turkey.
	That's going to be excellent. I'm not sure how you strangle people with a turkey, but by God, if you record that, put it on YouTube.
	You'll make a fortune. Maybe something like that Mr.
	Bean, whether he ends up with a turkey on his head.
	Yeah. Joey and friends, too.
	Anyway, listen, enough inane references.
	Thank you so much. We can open up to anybody else who may have another comment, issue, question, or problem.
	And... Thank you.
	Yeah, great job, Stephen.
	You did fantastically done. Thanks, Steph.
	I'll talk to you later.
	Okay. Alright, do we have any other questions, comments, issues, problems, compliments, expletives?
	If not... Steph, I had a short one, I guess, about something related to the foo.
	Actually, it kind of relates to also your relationship as an individual to yourself in the past.
	And it kind of also has to do mostly with obligations you've incurred from your past individual self.
	So let's say I had a relationship with a friend or a parent or whatever, and at some point, let's say when I was 18 or 17, I made a promise to them.
	And now looking back, I realize that I made a huge mistake.
	I mean, what is my ethical course of action at this point if I'm trying to convince this person to revoke the promise and to set me free of my ethical bonds?
	I mean, do I even have an ethical bond in that case if the different me in the past made that promise?
	Well, I don't think that you...
	I mean, this is my particular standpoint and we'll talk about two situations here.
	One is obligations that you incur as an adult.
	You are never a slave to a promise, right?
	You can't sign away your own moral independence, right?
	So, I can't make a contract with you saying, dude, I'm going to be your slave, and I'm no longer responsible for myself, right?
	So, given that that's the case, promises are always revocable.
	Promises are always revocable.
	You cannot sign away your free will.
	You can always, at any time, anywhere in your life, choose to revoke a commitment, right?
	People sign up for subscriptions for Free Domain Radio, and occasionally they'll cancel, right?
	And they'll cancel because whatever, whatever, right?
	But even if they wrote to me and said, I'm going to support you for two years, man, and then after six months they say, screw this, I hate it, you know, causing trouble in my family, my kids are listening to this now, it's not so much fun anymore, then they just cancel, right?
	And that's fine. And see, even if they'd signed a contract with me, They're totally free to cancel.
	There may be consequences to them canceling, right?
	There may be consequences.
	So, in a legal situation, you can always choose to welch on your debts, right?
	There's just going to be consequences to it.
	Now, if you can pay a debt and the person is honorable and they've provided you the service, then it's wrong.
	I mean, if you order something from eBay and you don't pay, then it's stealing, right?
	So we're all fine with that, but that's sort of the one situation which is as an adult, right?
	Now, the other situation is when you're a 17-year-old child and you make a promise to your parents, right?
	So let's say you make a promise to your dad.
	He says, I'm going to pay for your High school, I'm going to pay for you to go to the first two years of university if you work for me for a year after you graduate.
	And let's say he's an abusive guy, right?
	He beat you, yelled at, he's a bad guy, right?
	Yeah, take the goddamn money and then just walk.
	That would be my situation.
	When you're in the thrall, when you're under the control of bad people, parents and so on when you were a child, Yeah, it's like a state of nature.
	You just do whatever you can.
	Say whatever you can to get whatever you want.
	It's a state of nature. I don't think you owe anybody.
	You can lie to them. You can cheat them.
	I mean, it's a total state of nature.
	And to me, I would have no ethical problems with somebody saying, with the full knowledge that they were never going to go and work for their dad, Yeah, you know what?
	I will take 20 grand from you to go to college, and I know that I'm never going to come and work for you.
	Absolutely, I would have no problem with that.
	Right? Because this guy stole your childhood, right?
	Right? So, for me, getting back...
	Of course, I mean, I've made this argument before with student loans, right?
	You can apply for student loans or grants even from the government because, you know, they stole your money when you were a kid.
	They stole your childhood by stuffing you in these stupid schools.
	Your parents may have stolen your childhood and your happiness and given you a huge debt that you have to work through in terms of therapy and stuff, right?
	So, yeah, just grab whatever you...
	I just... I don't see any...
	Honor is only for the honorable, right?
	Integrity is only for people who have integrity.
	So I don't think that you owe people a squat if they exact promises from you out of force, right?
	It's like saying if I'm in jail and I can get away if I tell the guard I'm going to the bathroom when I don't actually have to go, if I can escape through the bathroom window, am I not allowed to lie to the guard and say I have to go to the bathroom when I don't?
	Well, of course I am, right? So that's sort of my take on it, but tell me what you think.
	No, that's a good point.
	And yeah, my childhood was stolen by the public education system.
	But besides that, beyond the actual state of nature case, which is, you know, where the children is, you know, he has no choice in the matter who parents him.
	I want to focus more on the adulthood to adulthood example.
	Let's say, I mean, let's say it's in a friendship, right?
	And I'm about age 25 and I make a promise to my friend, right?
	I'm an adult, but then I increase my awareness, you know, I come to Freedom Marine Radio and all these new great things.
	Suddenly, I realize that this friend is not acceptable.
	You talked about when you break a contract, you know, you can choose to take the consequences.
	What if this friend isn't particularly, let's say, abusive or, you know, violent or anything?
	Simply, I find him extremely boring, and I realize I've just put myself into a horrible quandary.
	I mean, should I just, since it's boredom, should I just accept the consequences and, you know, abide by my contract?
	I mean, let's say there's no legal...
	I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm not sure what you mean by contract in this sense.
	Do you mean like a money contract?
	I'm not sure what you mean by contract in terms of friendship.
	I guess more of like a...
	Let's say an agreement to...
	To somehow look out for each other in one regard or to just some sort of chosen positive obligation we've taken that maybe wouldn't have quantifiable legal ramifications.
	Oh, you mean like... Maybe it's our fault...
	You know, like you're gonna be like...
	I mean, no, no, no.
	BFF is ridiculous because that's like signing away your free will.
	Just kidding. But...
	Maybe...
	I'm thinking more of like a...
	Okay, you help me study when I'm in law school and I'll help you study when you're in medical school four years down the road or something like that.
	Right. Right? I mean, is it our fault for not creating an opt-out clause in the first place?
	I mean, is that a mistake? If you create a contract with an opt-out clause, then maybe it's invalid or...
	Well, the first thing is you can't have contracts in that way.
	That's not a contract, right?
	I mean, the first thing that I would say is that if you feel that you need to create those kind of reciprocal promises in a relationship, it's not really a relationship.
	It's not really a friendship.
	You should just want to help your friend study because you want to help your friend study because it's fun, because you learn something, because it'll help him, right?
	But I don't think that you can say, well, I'm only going to help you study if you help me study in the future.
	That to me is not a friendship.
	A friendship is so you just I don't say to Christina, I'll mow the lawn if you do the dishes.
	I just mow the lawn. And then she just does the dishes or whatever.
	And then she hands me a list of all the other things I need to do, which never gets completed.
	Anyway, we'll come back to that another time.
	Anyway, so I would say that it's not really a friendship if it's a pendulum.
	It's like, I'll do this for you, but then you should do this for me.
	I mean, you should just want your friend to succeed.
	You should enjoy spending time with him.
	And if that means helping him study, you should do that out of the goodness of your heart.
	If it's a drag...
	For you to help him study, and then you think that that creates an obligation for him to help you study because you didn't enjoy it, well then what you're saying is, my sacrifice creates sacrifices in other people.
	But logically that's not true.
	If you choose to forego pleasure, that has no obligation for anyone else to forego pleasure, right?
	Right. Well, I guess now I look at it this way, it does make sense.
	I was just concerned about, like I said earlier, the relationship between your individual self now and your individual self of the past.
	I'm just wondering about the types of problems that are incurred when you don't have knowledge and you make a bad decision, and then down the road you have the knowledge and that's it.
	I guess you just have to man up and accept Your stupidity of the past.
	Absolutely. I mean, if you get married to someone and it turns out to be the wrong person, or she doesn't grow, or she's hostile, or she regresses, and you grow, or whatever, then you, you know, you just get divorced, and you take the consequences of that, right?
	There's going to be a cost to it, and this and that and the other, but yeah, you can break your obligations at any time.
	I mean, otherwise we would be enslaving ourselves, which wouldn't be logically possible.
	No, that about does it for me anyway, so thanks.
	Oh, thank you. That's a very interesting question.
	All right, did we have any other tidy little shots issues before the end of the show?
	Go listen to 856.
	I think you'll enjoy it. And if we have any, I'll just give a second here in case anybody had any last-minute questions.
	Otherwise, we will end the show for today.
	Somebody said, what does Steph think about FSP? The Free State Project?
	I like the Free Self Project.
	I'm not so much on the Free State Project.
	No, I think it's...
	I mean, if you want to go move to New Hampshire, go move to New Hampshire.
	But don't move to New Hampshire because you think that you're going to be able to vote in a libertarian government.
	I mean, the federal government just does what it wants, right?
	So there's, I think it's, was it Colorado or something like that, they have legalized marijuana like an ounce or less, you don't get prosecuted according to the local laws, but the feds just come in and do it anyway, right?
	I mean, there's no possibility that political action will free us from the government.
	This is a multi-generational project, and there's just no possibility that political action is going to free us from the government.
	The government's on its last decade anyway, I mean, basically, you're trying to steer the ship after it hit the iceberg.
	You're sort of trying to spin the wheel of the Titanic after it's hit the iceberg.
	I mean, the state's already going down.
	I mean, the U.S. state I'm talking about here.
	The positive obligations are just so staggering and so unsustainable.
	There's no possibility. Moving to New Hampshire is not going to make you free.
	Moving to New Hampshire is not going to make you free.
	In fact, it's going to interfere with your freedom because there are all these damn groups who want you to come and join their freedom projects.
	So, no, work on yourself.
	Work on yourself. This is a multi-generational project, and you want to make sure to maximize your freedom in the present, which means don't waste time with politics.
	All right. Well, yeah, absolutely.
	If we want to talk about it more next week, that would be great.
	I think it's a very interesting topic, but at least you'll still have some idea where I stand to begin with.
	Well, thank you, everyone, so much for dropping past this long weekend.
	I think it was a great, great show.
	I think that's some of the best sets of questions we've had since the last show.
	No, in a while. So I really do appreciate it.
	You guys have been fantastic, been wonderful to debate with, and thank you for being my drug of choice.

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