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Aug. 29, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
30:27
854 Ask A Philosopher 2

ADHD mother in laws, the roots of self-pity, and a biochemical prison

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Good afternoon, everybody.
It's Steph. Hope you're doing well. This is the poor, sad, and inferior shadow half of the Ask a Therapist team.
Christina is still on hiatus, out with Raul, learning how to bathe topless in Milan.
So I'm holding down the home fort as we wait for her return.
So we're going to start right away.
Buy my book. It's on my website, On Truth, The Tyranny, Evolution.
It's fantastic. And I've also got a new Free Will series, a three-parter, count them three, for the price of one, which is for the price of zero, except for donations, which I look forward to and enable me to eat.
I'll have a look at the Free Will series.
It's on YouTube. It's a playlist, so you don't have to hunt around too far to find it.
So, first and foremost, we start with a gentleman who says, help, I need somebody.
My mother-in-law has a severe case of untreated ADHD. It is very much the big family secret, as it is painfully obvious, hurtful to everyone.
And no one ever does anything about it.
Having married into the family and otherwise not feeling the venom of someone with ADHD until now, I simply don't know how to react to her anymore.
She is literally the most rude, obnoxious, pushy, and irritating person I know.
She doesn't listen to anyone, talks non-stop, behaves like a child, and thus far I have yet to be able to express to her in a manner, where she comprehends what I'm saying, that she can't continue to walk all over my wife and I. We're good to go.
She literally isn't doing anything wrong, but leaves a wake of sadness and hurt with everyone in her life.
I feel like a rape victim who gets put on trial no matter what I do, and the only result of this whole thing is that she is ruining my marriage, her relationship with my wife and I, heading down a very dark path with her family, and stomping all over everyone in her life without any obvious signs of acknowledgement or control or interest in changing.
Once more Help!
Well, obviously I'm sorry to hear about this trouble And I'm sorry to hear that you have Such a stereotypically witchy Mother-in-law That is a real shame And a very, very difficult situation to be in Yet, strangely enough, not.
So, the first thing that I would say is if it's untreated or undiagnosed ADHD, I wouldn't necessarily call it ADHD. Because ADHD is a complex thing with no biological markers and the diagnosis can go back and forth for years with people and I doubt very much that a dose of whatever they use to treat ADHD, that stimulant, the Ritalin, I doubt that that's going to have anything to do.
Well, they wouldn't treat an adult with that, but I doubt that's going to have anything to do.
With helping with these kinds of behaviors, I, sort of as a more relevant diagnosis to ADHD, might suggest another acronym, which is BITCH, and you can look that one up.
That may be a little bit more helpful for you in dealing with this.
But I must say that I'm not sure that I quite understand what you say when you say that your mother-in-law is the cause of all of your problems.
I don't really understand that.
And I'll sort of give you an analogy which might help you understand why I don't understand it, and maybe you can help explain it or help me understand it better.
So, if you park your car...
In a particular spot every single day, and every single day, a boulder comes down, crashing down a hill, and completely destroys your car, and then you go and buy a new car, and then you park it in the same spot, and after a couple of weeks, you're completely broke, and you write a letter saying...
You know, these rocks are the cause of all my problems.
Well, I would say that it's not the case that the rock, or in this case your mother-in-law, is the cause of all of your problems.
Of course not. There are a million, a billion, a couple of billion nasty people in the world, and you can choose to spend time with any of them.
And as you know, I don't recognize mother-in-law as any kind of valid moral category that contains any kind of obligation in it.
If you let difficult people into your life, your life will become difficult, and you can sit there and blame the difficult people, but the real question is, who invited them into your life?
You did! Please don't tell me that this behavior was completely unknown to you before you married your wife, and you obviously are completely frustrated with wanting to change her.
But of course, a central tenet of any kind of rational approach to mental health is the understanding that you can't change anybody else.
You only have control over your own actions, your own choices, your own behaviors.
You have no choice over how other people are going to react to those things.
You can influence them to some degree by behaving better or whatever, but fundamentally your actions are the only thing under your control.
So given that that's sort of a basic reality or a basic fact, that only your own behavior and actions are under your control...
And you find this mother-in-law to be endlessly destructive.
And of course, I fully, I mean, assuming you're telling me the truth, I fully agree that this person sounds like a horrendously destructive and difficult person to have in your life.
So, given that you can't control anybody else's behavior, but you can only control your own behavior, what are you going to do?
Now, trying to change her is not a rational option, because you can.
You can't. If she is as bad as you say she is, the odds of her changing are precisely zero.
Because we're not talking about a modification of behavior, we're talking about a complete reversal of a personality structure.
I mean, you might as well say, well, my marriage will get better the moment that I can close my eyes and wish myself to the dark side of the moon, not the album, but the place, and that would be something that you would have to give up on as a hope and deal with something more practical.
So what do you do? Well, I can speak from some experience here insofar as before Christina was ready to defoo and I was seeing how destructive her parents' behavior was towards her, and to give them their due credit, they're not even on the same planet as this lunatic that you've got as a mother-in-law.
And they were just critical and a little negative, and they didn't listen to her and so on, and we had problems that arose when we would see them.
So after a particular incident wherein Christina had advanced an opinion and her mother had Scowled at her and changed the topic immediately and sort of radiated disapproval and negativity.
I said, you know what?
I've now known these people for, I guess, about two years at this point.
And I just don't see them treating you that well.
I don't see them treating you really badly, yelling at her or anything like that.
They're not horrible people in that way.
But I just don't like the fact that...
I mean, I love you.
You're my wife. And there are people who are hurting you.
And I'm not going to support that.
I'm not going to participate in that in any way, shape, or form.
I'm not going to condone that or signify any kind of approval.
So I'm terribly sorry to inform you, dear wife of mine, but I'm no longer going to see your parents.
I strongly suggest that you don't see your parents.
And I will fully support whatever it takes to get you over that considerable hump of no longer seeing your parents.
But I'm not going to.
If you say, we're going over there for brunch, then I'm not going to come.
And I'm not going to come because I don't want to see you be hurt.
And if you feel the need, or you want to go, or you've got your issues to work out, or maybe you're too scared to break with this destructive witch.
But if you want to go, that's your business.
I can't control your behavior.
But I can certainly control my own behavior, and I'm no longer going to participate in any social events or engagements which hurt you.
And, of course, also hurt me.
Watching you get hurt hurts me.
So I'm going to do what is necessary to protect...
My mental health and happiness.
And I'm no longer going to see your mom.
You take a leadership role.
Your wife can't in this moment, right?
She's obviously raised in a very chaotic household and so on.
Your wife can't and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, leadership is a baton that passes back and forth in marriages.
But you take a leadership position in this and you say, I'm not going to stand for this.
And you don't say, I'm not going to stand for this and therefore you all have to do this, that or the other.
I mean, that's not self-actualization.
That's not Healthy.
And it's not realistic.
That's manipulative.
It's manipulative for me to say, I'm not going to do this, and now you all have to do that.
The sentence ends with, I'm no longer going to do this, and you give your reasons, and of course we can listen to what people say and get their response, and it doesn't mean that we're completely like a bullet through the air, unable to waver, and so on.
But you say, look, who is this woman?
She's your mom. But that's no particular obligation to me.
In fact, it's no particular obligation to you.
But this is how we free the world.
We don't free the world by saying to people, you have to do X or Y or Z, or this family has to acknowledge this crazy person.
Of course the family is not going to acknowledge this crazy bitch.
Of course not. I mean, she's been reinforced the whole time.
The whole family structure is built around ignoring this.
It's completely and totally impossible that this family is going to acknowledge this Sort of the reality of this crazy witch.
So the way that we free the world is we simply say, I'm not going to do X. We lead by example.
We say, I no longer engage with corrupt people.
And I'm certainly happy to support this.
And I'm not just doing this because I can't handle it or because I don't want to confront this person or whatever.
I'm just doing it because this is the right thing to do.
It is the right thing to do to not have corrupt and destructive and abusive people in your life.
It is immoral to have corrupt and abusive and destructive people in your life.
You are giving sanction to brutality.
You are supporting corruption and evil.
But I'm not going to force people to do stuff.
I am going to demonstrate freedom.
I am going to demonstrate the principle of no unchosen positive obligations in practice.
I'm going to show what it looks like to be free.
And then those who want to be free, and I'm talking about it, give my reasons, those who want to be free will follow me, and those who don't want to be free, there's nothing you can do.
Right? If someone's drowning and you jump into the lake to save them, if they kick a little bit because they're panicking, then stay with them.
If with full knowledge and cognizance they punch you in the face, fuck them, head back to shore.
Right? You can't save people.
You can only demonstrate salvation and see who's interested.
So, yeah, I mean, who is the cause of this woman being in your life?
You were the cause of this woman being in your life.
You knew who she was before you married your wife.
You're still choosing to have this woman.
I mean, if this woman is coming over, you leave the house.
If your wife has said, oh, we've got to go, just, you know, you go.
If you feel that it's important to do this, and I mean, I know that it's totally wrong, but if you feel that it's important to do this, then go do this.
But I'm not going to do it.
This woman can be in your life, but she's not going to be in my life.
Because this is a badass woman.
So, you have complete authority, control, and power in your life.
And yes, you know, I mean, it certainly is more than a little possible that your wife is going to get really mad at you, and, you know, the fact that you're acting on your principles is going to make people angry, as it always does, right?
Certain people. And you don't have any control over that either.
The only thing you have control over is your behavior, and that means no longer spending time around these kinds of people.
So, this is one of the easier ones we've gotten, as far as Ask a Therapist goes.
I don't need more than, what, 12 minutes on it.
But, yeah, you just don't have anything to do with this woman.
Oh, well, my wife. It's like, well, no, that's your wife's business.
Right? That's your wife's business.
But your business is whether you support bad people.
And by spending time with them and pretending otherwise that they're not bad, you're doing exactly that.
The best way to free others is to act with liberty ourselves.
Alright, so the next part of this conversation is a gentleman who writes, and we'll call him Bob.
Bob writes, Is there something wrong with me?
Brackets, strange fantasies, and the like.
So he says, When I cry, I don't really dislike the experience.
I don't like crying in front of other people, of course, but when I'm alone, it feels okay.
Once I have started crying, I will often find myself purposefully thinking sad or self-deprecating thoughts to make myself cry more.
I think that I take pleasure in feeling sorry for myself and in other people feeling sorry for me.
When I was in high school, I would often find myself daydreaming and fantasizing about awful things happening to me or people I love.
I would, for instance, imagine both of my parents being killed in a car accident, forcing me to live with my aunt and uncle or some variation thereof.
In this fantasy, I would be able to act however I wanted, drink excessively, have violent outbursts, and I would almost be justified in acting that way because my parents had recently been killed.
Another common fantasy would involve me being hit by a car or being shot or having people worry about me, come visit me in the hospital, and so on.
I still have these thoughts from time to time, but have become more aware of them and try not to revel in them because I feel that they are unhealthy.
Any thoughts you might have on any of this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks a lot, Bob. Well, I certainly do understand that feeling, right?
What's that? You'll be sorry when I'm dead, and all this guilt will be on your head.
So I do really understand these kinds of feelings, and I've had similar sort of experiences like that before when I was younger, a little bit younger than you are, but not much.
So I'll tell you what I think is going on, and of course you can let me know whether you think this is valid or not.
So, what I believe is happening for you, and I'm going out on a limb, so let me know if it makes sense or not.
What I believe is happening for you is that people, your parents, or your primary parents, did not pay much attention to you when you were a child and do not know who you are.
There's not any real intimacy.
There's not any real empathy, particularly empathy for you and your states of mind, your thoughts, your feelings.
There's a very strong sense that I get from this.
Of isolation. And so I'll tell you what I think is going on, what your unconscious is trying to do, and then we can talk about how to change what's happening, right?
So we all have a need for affection, a very strong need for affection, and to feel valued by others, right?
And there's a huge root of human motivation, a huge causality at the bottom of human motivation, which is, what do you do if you're not loved for who you are?
All children should be loved for who they are originally.
Just loved and adored and worshipped for who they are.
It doesn't mean no discipline or all that kind of stuff.
But we all should be loved for who we are.
And that's how we gain a sense that we are of value to other people.
If we are not perceived as having any value to other people, it's very hard for us to really believe or feel that we have value for ourselves, if that makes sense.
So... If nobody ever teaches us to speak, we can't just invent language on our own.
And if nobody ever finds real value and pleasure in our natural being, the natural play and interplay of our thoughts and feelings and instincts and so on.
If nobody ever really takes value or finds value in who we are in our natural state, we can't very reasonably invent value for ourselves or invent a reality called we have value any more than we can invent language if we're not taught it or invent all of mathematics if we're never taught it.
So what I believe has occurred in your life is that you have not been valued for who you are.
And massive amounts of human society are devoted, and some pretty exploitive areas of human society are devoted to sort of, quote, solving this problem, right?
So if you don't feel that you have value for who you are, well, what are you going to do?
Well, you're going to fuss with your hair.
You're going to work out.
You're going to try and look good.
You're going to try and be cool.
You're going to try and learn dance moves.
You're going to try and be smart.
You're going to try and get a degree.
You're going to try and be a doctor, right?
You're going to try to like certain types of music.
You're going to try and portray yourself in a certain kind of way.
Because me, just me, is not enough.
I gotta be me in a Ferrari.
I gotta be me rich.
I gotta be me cool.
I gotta be me with a tattoo.
I gotta be me with piercings.
I gotta be me with grills.
Right? If you're not enough...
If you're not enough, just you, just you in your natural, unadorned, unpumped up state.
If you're not enough, what are you going to do?
Well, you have to create something which makes people care about you.
Breast implants, hair transplants, all of the mess and nonsense.
Talent is a big one, right?
Oh, I have talent! Now people will care about me.
But we know. Owen Wilson just tried to slash him wrists, right?
Not enough. Doesn't work.
Right? So what is it that we're going to do if we're not enough to have people care about us just for who we are in our natural state?
Well, we're going to have to add something to create value.
And your particular circumstance, and I can't, obviously, I don't know what caused this, but your particular circumstance is that people will care about me if it's me plus tragedy.
Right? So, you know, women say people will care about me if it's me minus 20 pounds, or me with a boob job, or me with a facelift, or me with dyed hair, or whatever.
Right? But with you, it's people will care about me if it's me plus tragedy.
So you create this world in which a terrible thing has happened so that people would care about you.
In a sense, you'll have something to say.
You'll have someone to be. You will be the guy whose parents died horribly.
This is a guy, my last job that I had, there was a guy who was once on the Olympics.
He was an Olympic rower.
And, of course, you found out about this within 30 seconds or 45 seconds or a minute of him.
This is the constant advertisement that people give you, either explicitly or implicitly.
You know, I go to clubs and I cut right through the lines.
You know, that's...
I'm not enough, just in and of myself.
Right? It has to be me plus being really cool and hip and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So in your particular situation...
You're not enough in and of yourself, so you plus tragedy is what will get people to pay attention to you and have sympathy for you.
Now, of course, nobody fundamentally, deep down, at all likes having to put on an act to, quote, create interest in people.
Nobody likes that, right?
I mean, every woman even wants to be loved for who she is, right?
But then it feels...
Uncertain about going out just as she is.
Right? So the primping and the whatever and do I look fat and all this kind of stuff, right?
I mean, we all want to be loved for who we are.
But we're all terrified that unless we put on a show, nobody's going to love us, right?
So your show, in your own mind, is tragedy.
And there is self-pity in that.
And there's good reason to have self-pity, which is that you weren't loved for who you are.
But if you were loved for who you were, you wouldn't need to invent these tragic scenarios, wherein people will have sympathy for you or pay attention to you.
But, of course, there's anger in that too, right?
There's anger in having to create a show to get people's attention.
Because deep down we know that if they really loved us, we shouldn't Have to create a show, right?
So the anger that comes from feeling unloved or abandoned comes out in the desire for the tragedy to strike your parents, not you, right?
You don't say, well, gee, what if I, you know, what if my leg fell off or something?
And it's a sympathy, right?
It's hostility towards other people.
And so that sort of shows up That way.
And there is some things, and you do mention, right, so you get shot or hit by a car and people come to visit you, right?
And there are these scenes, these soap opera scenes, right?
So it's either hostility towards others or hostility towards yourself that comes up, but there's always a hostility, right?
Because you don't say, people will love me because I get a windfall, I win the lottery, or, you know, it's a negative thing, it's a destructive thing.
And so you also feel that this is going to absolve you of sort of human laws of ethics, right?
So you can start acting really badly, but then people can sort of have sympathy for you because it's like, well, you know, he went through a terrible time, so he's drinking and this and that.
So you want to act out this anger.
But you need kind of the permission to act out the self-destructive behavior of drinking and drugs.
But you need the permission of tragedy to do so, right?
So I would say that if you want to sort of get to the core of these issues, you have to sort of examine within your own heart what does it mean to be loved and cared for?
Were you ever loved and cared for passionately, devotedly, just for who you are?
Right? Are there things that you're doing that would make right now that make good and virtuous people love you or respect you or admire you?
And if not, you need to start doing those things.
And there's lots in the podcast about that if you'd like to listen to those.
But I think that's really the core issue that's going on.
Once you find out this hollowness that's in your heart in these areas, then you need to sit down with your parents and say, I'm not sure that I don't feel that you ever loved me for who I was and work through that particular process.
And... Hopefully you will be able to find a way out of these fantasies and towards a more productive way of having people love you, which of course is a beautiful thing.
Alright, next up, we have another Bob.
Dear Steph and or Christina, I am having trouble understanding my family and why they do what they do.
First, my mom has a schizoaffective disorder, and sometimes she will be nice and caring and a little social, but other times she will have delusions, like my dad is seeing another woman, even though there's no reason to believe this.
During this phase, she will be very antisocial and is provoked Sometimes for no apparent reason.
Also, I have an older brother, age 22, who has severe autism and cannot live on his own.
My dad is hardest to understand.
Sometimes he will also be nice but will get aggravated by certain things.
He obsesses about my formal education and if I show significant signs of slacking or not living up to his expectations, usually not doing homework, he will lecture me about and hand out He also spoils my older brother, doing almost anything for him, unless he, Dad, is extremely aggravated.
He also works for a defense contractor, which may say something important about him.
What I want to know is to understand what the heck is going on.
Why does Dad spoil my brother?
Why did he marry a schizophrenic woman?
If you need more info, please contact me.
I remember being spanked when I was young, but after four, it stopped.
However, I was physically assaulted by my autistic brother when I was young.
If I did anything that somehow aggravated him, he would hit me.
Eventually, I would fight back, and he doesn't hit me now.
If he has any problems, he will take it out on Dad.
Understandably, I've been very resentful towards my brother and my dad for spoiling him.
Also, due to the circumstances, I have high levels of anxiety and am easily stressed.
Oh, my brother, my brother, my brother, what an absolutely nightmarish and terrible situation.
My heart absolutely bleeds for you.
I'm so, so sorry.
What a complete nightmare and crazy-ass zoo you've been born into.
And, oh, man, kudos for surviving as well as you have.
There's not much that I can say.
Your mom, for sure, is schizoaffective, for those who don't know, is biochemical in nature.
And, of course, because it's biochemical in nature, it doesn't mean that it's only biochemical in nature.
Because what that also means, of course, is that that has significant effects on self-esteem and other aspects of psychology that would not be directly influenced by...
Like, I mean, if somebody has bipolar disorder...
Then that person is going to end up with lower self-esteem because they achieve less in life, they're more prone to depression, less prone to self-trust and so on.
So your mom has a physical disorder which has a very strong effect on a wide variety of aspects.
Of her thinking and her feeling.
So that is just a complete nightmare.
And why she's doing what she's doing?
Well, if you short-circuit a robot, it's going to do some weird things.
And there's no particular way you can say, well, why is my robot doing these weird things?
It's like because it's short-circuited, right?
I mean, if you jolt electricity through your arm, your arm's going to flap around like a fish on the bottom of a boat.
So saying why it does that, well, it's because it's broken, right?
So... So that aspect of things, I mean, can't do much about, but you do need to process your own feelings with regards to this and the legitimate hell that you've gone through in this family and...
I mean, you're young, so leaving may not be an option.
But what I would say is that I don't think that your family would find it.
Unless, I mean, they're all completely deranged.
And by this, I mean, your father really sounds like the only one who's remotely sane.
To say, look, I mean, it's been a pretty stressful family growing up.
I need to get some counseling.
I really need to get some counseling.
And the most important thing for you to do is to get to a therapist so that you can process your experience of living in this family, which...
Oh man, I mean, just what a nightmare.
I'm so, so, so sorry.
That is just beyond awful what it is that you've had to go through, that you had to suffer through in this family.
So the only thing that I can suggest, because there's not much that obviously that I can do...
Not remotely in any way, but the thing that is absolutely crucial for you is to get to a therapist.
Now, if you're still in high school, then of course you may have access to counseling through that.
If your dad works for a defense contractor, then he may well have some sort of benefits that will allow you to go and see a counselor for free.
But, I mean, if there's one thing that you need to do, you need to You need to find out about that.
There may be a kid's helpline that you can call that is going to help you to get to talk to someone helpful about this.
But you can't do this on your own.
No human being could.
And it is real strength to ask for help when you need it.
So the absolutely crucial thing is to get to a therapist as quickly as humanly possible and start to work through.
This stuff is going to fester. The longer you leave it, the worse it's going to be.
So... I mean, as much as possible, you want to prevent this, and you can do a lot to do this.
As much as possible, you want to prevent this from carrying on to another generation.
So I would say, given that you're dealing with some serious biological ailments that have produced terrifying behavioral diseases, Thank you.
Thank you.
to someone who can get you there.
You won't have to pay.
And I mean, there's no one who could say that you don't need it because, oh brother, that is just terrible.
Well, thanks so much to those We will continue to plug on.
Christina should be back, I guess, in a couple of weeks or a month, a month and a half.
And I hope that I'm doing some vaguely credible job of dealing with these or tackling these.
So thank you so much for listening.
I look forward to your donations.
And I look forward to selling you my book.
And you can go to freedomainradio.com.
Just click on the Untruth Tyranny of Illusion.
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