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July 6, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
33:38
820 Saving the Maiden - A Listener Conversation...
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Yeah, how's it going? Not too bad.
How are you? I'm okay.
Could be better, it sounds like.
Yeah, yeah. I had a lot going on recently, as of last night.
Right, right. What's up? I went out with my girlfriend all day yesterday, but apparently she had been grounded and her mom called the cops on her.
And if I had not been under 18, I would have been arrested.
Wow. Yeah.
That's not good. No, not at all.
Not at all. And, I mean, I thought it was way out of proportion, but, I mean, I don't know.
I could run you by some details and let you know or whatever, but it's been weird.
Well, like, July 4th, we went with her whole family to Busch Gardens, which is like a theme park up here in Virginia, and they had like the big fireworks and the, you know, patriotic la-di-da.
Yeah. So, her mom went off to get some ice cream, and we were like, well, we're just going to go over here and watch the fireworks.
And she didn't have her phone on, and for some reason they didn't call me, but we were looking all over the park for her mom, and we couldn't find her.
We found my dad, and we hung out with him until we could get a hold of her mom.
And then when we did...
She got grounded for yesterday, but didn't tell me.
And she called me and asked if I'd come pick her up, so I did.
Sorry, sorry. She got grounded for yesterday.
This is when you were at Busch Gardens?
Yeah, she got grounded for yesterday while we were at Busch Gardens two days ago.
And I'm sorry, I just missed what she did that she got grounded for.
She got lost. That's what she did.
She got lost, and there was no cell phone thing or anything like that, right?
Yeah. Okay, so she got grounded.
Did they not believe that she was lost?
I mean, there's very few parents, even crazy ones, who would ground you for being lost.
Did they think that she just sort of took off and that she wasn't really lost?
The way her mom put it is we ditched her, but what really happened is we got lost, and we told her that.
And we told her we were looking for her, but she didn't believe us.
Did she? So you were lost with...
I'm so sorry for missing the details here, but so you were lost with your girlfriend?
Yeah, we were both lost from the rest of the group.
We both got separated. And that was including spending...
So it was just you two at Busch Gardens for some portion of the day, and she thought that you guys had ditched them?
How long? Yeah. Like an hour.
An hour. Okay, so she thought that you ditched them and, I don't know, gone to sell drugs or something terrible like that, right?
Yeah. Okay, okay.
Now, when you hooked up again...
Sorry, let me not use that phrase because it means something different to me than you.
When you met up again with your girlfriend's family, was there a big trouble?
What was the story there?
Yeah, there was a lot of trouble.
We... Because her brother was up and it was like a big deal that her brother was in town.
And her brother yelled at her for about 15 minutes after we found him.
And then her mom yelled at her for another 30 minutes.
And I mean cussing and screaming all in the middle of like this huge crowd.
It wasn't like it was let's get to the car and then we'll talk about it.
It was in the middle of everything yelling and screaming at this girl who's 15 and can obviously take care of herself for more than an hour.
But what were they saying?
They were like, why the hell did you ditch us, you dumb bitch, and stuff like that.
I was like... Oh my god, really?
Oh, that's terrible. Yeah, I was like, are you guys serious?
Like, come on. Oh my god, that's terrible.
Yeah. Oh, how humiliating.
I know. And then they started yelling at me, too, and I was like, wait, I'm not even your kid.
Right, right.
And then my dad's standing there, and he's like, were they yelling at you?
And I was like, yeah. And he's like, what the hell?
What do you mean? Your dad was there while they were yelling at their kid?
Yeah. Did he say anything?
He was like...
Well, he believes you shouldn't get involved in other people's stuff, but he was like, hey, can you at least do this somewhere else?
I mean, this is kind of like...
This is a family issue or whatever.
And then they started in on him, too.
They were like, well, why didn't you call?
And whatever. And it was like, oh my god.
I was... I was flabbergasted that they did that in the middle of a couple thousand people.
In some sort of fantasy world, where there's the perfect outcome to this, what would you have liked to have seen happen when that was going on?
In a perfect world?
Maybe just see my girlfriend walk off and leave her mom alone.
I mean, there's no need for all this to be going on.
They should have just been fine.
Do you think that you would have had any chance to stand up to these people or shame them back or anything like that?
Oh, no. There's no way.
Her mom...
You know those people who...
They say one thing, but they really feel another thing.
And then they say the thing they really feel and they contradict themselves the whole time they're talking?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, she's one of them.
And you can't talk to her.
It's, like, impossible. Right.
So, and then her brother is one of those army folk, and I just...
Ah! Okay. Yeah, that sounds like a wise thing not to get involved.
Yeah. I was just, like, I was just really quiet, and then I, like, I waited for her mom to chill out, and then I took her aside, and I was like, yeah, so just be calm and don't freak out and all this stuff.
And she's doing really well with not fighting back as much, but...
Or not being...
As outspoken, kind of trying to step away from the family.
Oh yeah, this psychotic environment.
And she's 15, right?
So she's got a couple of years to go.
She's got to try and find some way to make her peace in this freaking prison, right?
Yeah. And that's where yesterday came in.
She got grounded and she told her mom she wasn't staying at home.
She was like, I'm not staying here and I'm just going to go out and I'll go do something.
She didn't say she'd be with me.
And I didn't know she had gotten grounded.
I just want to put that out there.
So I called her after school because I've been doing summer school to go ahead and finish state school.
And I called her and I was like, so do you want to chill today?
I've got my little brother with me.
We can go and do something with him and he likes hanging out with you and blah blah blah.
And she's like, Yeah, just come get me.
It'll be fine. And I came and got her.
And we hung out, like, all day.
I mean, it was, like, from noon to, like, 7.
Your brother? Is that right? Yeah, with my brother and her.
And we ended up going back to my house, and my little brother was on the computer playing a game.
And we were sitting here watching TV, and her dad comes to the door, who lives right down the street from me because her parents are divorced.
Yeah. And he knocks on the door, and he's like, hey, is someone here?
And I was like, yeah. And he goes...
Well, she either needs to come with me or the cops are going to be called.
And I was like, really?
You're like, hey, this is just getting better and better every day.
I was like, what happened?
He goes, well, her mother said she wasn't supposed to go out today, and she did.
And I was like, so you're going to call the cops on her?
Like, seriously?
He was like, yes, we are, young man, and you're going to, and whatever, and Mom's freaking out.
But he's way more laid back.
He's definitely not one of the controlling people.
He's just like, you know, let the kids do what they want to do and whatever.
Yeah, but I mean, he's not standing up.
Like, the thing is, nobody's standing up to this woman, right?
You can't because you're not old enough.
Your dad didn't. This guy didn't.
No one's putting a line in the sand saying, listen, you crazy woman, this is a terrible way to get your kid.
Well, I'm planning on doing that if I can ever get a hold of her, but she hasn't been answering my phone calls.
Well... You might want to think about that just a little bit, and we can talk about that in a few minutes if you like, just because I know that you want to protect this girl from her mom, right?
I mean, you care about this girl, and obviously she's being treated in just a completely horrendous way.
And the mom is totally nuts.
And none of the adults are doing what they should be doing.
None of the adults are saying, listen, you need to calm down.
You need to stop yelling at your daughter.
She got lost. You need to sit down and discuss this rant.
Nobody's saying this to this woman.
Anyway, so go on with your story, and then I'll chime in with my two cents if it helps.
Yeah. So then...
She went home with her dad yesterday, and they went back to her mom's house, and her mom being the kind of narcissist that she is, called her aunt in on a thing.
For some reason, her aunt had to be there to, you know, chime in and help chastise the child.
Oh, yeah. So she kicked out last night.
Oh, so first of all, she's grounded, and then she's not allowed to come home.
Yeah, that's good consistent parenting.
Yeah, right, right.
You know, be consistent. Consistently crazy, yeah.
So she's left.
She walked out the front door.
She's like, okay, you don't want me here?
Fine, I'll leave. She walked out the front door and the cops got called.
Oh my god. So she gets kicked out of her house and then she gets what?
The cops get called and my daughter's run away?
Yeah. So she walks back into the house when she hears her mom on the phone with the cops.
And she's like, well then, fine.
I will go upstairs and pack and wait for dad to come get me.
And so she went upstairs and she was packing and her mom's yelling at her the whole time.
She's packing and crying and all hysterical and whatever.
And she's calling me every five minutes going, what the hell should I do?
You've already been through this kind of thing.
And I was like, I don't know. Your mom's a little bit different from mine.
Mine's crazy, but not like yours.
And then, well, not exactly like yours.
I mean, it's just different degrees of insanity.
Yeah. And so we're calling back and forth.
Her dad won't even take her.
Her dad won't take her?
No. Because he's a fireman and he works at a hospital.
I think he's some sort of doctor's assistant or something.
But he works like 24 hours a day.
But so what? Yeah, that's what I said.
I was like, she can stay at home alone.
She knows how to cook, you know, that kind of stuff.
She lives like five seconds down the road from me if she lives there.
If she stays there. So, like, she's not exactly alone and she's not going to get, you know, raped and pillaged without me showing up, you know?
And so, anyway, her dad wouldn't take her.
She's stuck at her mom's house now.
Her mom said if she leaves the house at all today or any day without any sort of permission, the cops will be called on her immediately and she'll be taken to juvie, I guess, or something as a runaway.
Well, that's a tough call, right?
I mean, she does have some rights in the situation.
She can't just be thrown in jail by her mom.
And what's the plan?
Is she going to be locked at home like Martha Stewart for the next three years?
I mean, what's the plan here?
I mean, of course, there is nothing other than abuse and humiliation and degradation.
So anyway, sorry, go on with your story.
But yeah, that's basically where it is now.
We've talked twice today, and she's...
She's really upset about the whole thing, but there's not much I can do.
I mean, I can't go over there and rescue her in the tall tower in the castle or something.
And how old are you again?
I'm 17. You're 17.
Okay, so how long have you guys been going out?
Six months now. Six months.
Okay. And just tell me if I'm going over the line.
I'm just going to ask some questions.
You tell me if it's okay or not.
And what do you like about her?
Everything? I mean, she's basically the same as I am.
Like, our whole history is exactly almost the same, and the only thing is she's the youngest kid and I'm the oldest kid.
And we both, I mean, I've had her listen to some of the podcasts and stuff, and she totally gets it, but she's kind of got a lot of questions and stuff, and she doesn't want to defoo because of the whole Christian, leaving your family's bad thing.
Uh-huh, right, right. You know, like, and that's what she's been taught the whole time she's been growing up is if you leave your family, then you're going to hell or whatever.
Yeah, and it's not like good parents need, good parents would never need to teach you that, right?
No. I don't need to teach you my wife.
If she leaves me, she's going to hell because she doesn't want to leave me because I'm a good husband.
Exactly. Yeah.
And... Okay, go on.
So, I mean, we get, we're exactly on the same path as far as morality and what's right and what's wrong.
It's just... Her family's totally tough to deal with.
Well, and I'm sorry to interrupt you for just a sec, but I mean, in this kind of situation, precision is really important.
You're not on the same track as far as morality goes.
Not yet. I'm not saying you won't be, right?
But just from the outside, she has a kind of family cult thing going on that you don't.
Oh yeah, but she realizes that it's bad and that she shouldn't be with it.
But she's still trying to work through the baby stages of it.
Got it. Everyone goes through that.
So she accepts the premises, but she's not ready to do the actions yet, right?
Yeah, yeah. Now, is she 15 and a bit?
Is she close to 16?
She'll be 16 in February.
In February. Okay, so she's just sort of turned 15.
Now, the other tough question I have to ask you is, why do you think that she did not tell you that she'd been grounded?
Because I would have made her stay at home.
Right. Right.
That's not good. And look, all due sympathy to this girl who's being completely tortured.
I have no reason to believe that you're not telling me the total truth.
So all due sympathy, but she kind of got you hoovered into here to something.
She did not give you the full facts.
She didn't give you the partial facts.
She didn't give you any facts.
Yeah. Right?
And that's not good, right?
I mean, the thing that you need to establish with her, right, is like, if you're gonna be with me, you gotta tell me what's going on.
Like, you've got to tell me the truth.
Yeah. Because, you know, you need to be able to make your own decisions with regards to this stuff, just so you don't end up getting hauled in jail or something like that, right?
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a risky situation in some ways because clearly there's a very unstable and dangerous mom on the warpath, right?
I mean, if she scares your dad and she scares her ex-husband and she probably scares everyone else because she's able to get away with this kind of nonsense, right?
You're not the guy who's going to be able to successfully stand up to her.
I absolutely guarantee you that.
And I would really, if I were you, and again, you're your own boss and you're a smart fellow, so it's up to you, but I would strongly discourage you from trying to sit down and confront this mom.
You have no authority.
You have no power over her.
You're not her boss. You're not paying her salary.
These kind of people only respect power.
They don't respect virtue. They don't respect courage.
They don't respect honesty. This kind of person who brutalizes her child in public Is not going to respond to any argument from virtue, and because you don't have any power over her, she's going to know that you don't have any power over her.
And so she's going to then work to try and humiliate you as much as possible and make your life a living hell.
And I don't want you to feel, if you put a lot of stock into this kind of confrontation, you're going to go in and you're going to get blown out of the water.
And it's not because you're not smart and it's not because you're not strong.
I would too, anyone would.
Right? Because she's insane.
And you can't argue with crazy people, as you pointed out earlier.
So if you go in and you try and take her on, what's going to happen is you're going to get blown out of the water and then you're going to feel really bad, like you failed.
Yeah. Right? I think you've got unrealistic expectations of what it is you say.
You can't ride up on a white horse and take this girl out of this kind of situation.
Now, another question that I... Sorry, was there anything you wanted to...
You can hold that one. You're totally right about that.
Like, I know I couldn't You know, totally save her from it, but I could...
I was thinking about talking to her, but I'm...
I mean, not like...
This is what I'm gonna say and whatever.
I was just like... If I did, what would happen?
Yeah, I wouldn't. You don't have any control in this situation.
If you did have evidence of her being physically abused, then that would be something else, right?
Then you could call the cops, or then you could call social services, and they would go over and they would do an investigation, and she might then get emancipated because she's so close to being 16.
She might get student welfare.
She might get out of that kind of situation.
I don't know what the legal status is of verbal abuse.
It's very, very not a thing you can really use against anybody.
Right, right, okay. And you don't know of any physical abuse, is that right?
I know they had a fistfight one time, but not anything recent enough that there'd be evidence.
Right, right, okay. That was when we first started going out, they had a fistfight, and that scared me enough.
I was like, okay, so your mom's crazier than my mom.
Okay, so like, tell me this, right?
And this really just comes out, all due respect to your relationship and your affection for the girl and so on, but I gotta just ask you, right?
Growing up in this kind of household is really damaging, right?
I'm sure I don't have to tell you.
It sounds like she's got it even worse than you had it, if I'm reading this sort of correctly.
Yeah, definitely.
Right, so this has huge effects on someone, right, who is still essentially in many ways a child, right, because she hasn't had any proper emotional instruction on how to deal with conflicts, which is why she just comes over to your house and doesn't tell you, right?
And I don't blame her for that in a way, right, because she's just trying to find a way to survive this terrifying and terrible situation.
But... The kind of pressure and abuse that she's lived under, parents separating crazy mom, I mean, this kind of public humiliation and so on, she's going to be kind of messed up, right?
I mean, I'm sure I'm telling you anything that you don't know, right?
Yeah, I know. So, right, I mean, do you think that it's a good idea?
I mean, I have my opinion, which I won't be afraid to share with you, because you can just take it for what it's worth, right?
Yeah. Do you think that it's a good idea to be romantically involved with somebody who's going through this kind of stuff, or do you think it would be better to be there as a friend?
Well, the way it's kind of been going is kind of a both kind of situation.
Kind of like a both thing? What?
You mean like a both thing?
Yeah. Right.
Like... I mean, because she knows I've already left my mom, and she's gone out of my life, and so she's kind of hoping I can give her some guidance in the whole how it's going to go down thing.
Right. So, I mean, I've told her it's not easy, and she knows that it's going to take a while because she can't leave right now.
And if she could leave right now, she would, but since she can't, it's going to take a minute, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm just trying, like, we're just trying to work through, like, the everyday of, okay, so this is what Crazy's doing today, so today is a day where you come to Rob's house, or today is a day where you stay home because you don't want to get in trouble, or, you know, whatever.
And they know that you're dating, right?
The mom knows that you're dating.
Oh yeah, she knows. Right, right.
That's probably one of the things, I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's probably one of the things that's got her kind of crazy.
I mean, not your fault, right?
But she's maybe scared of sex or pregnancy or something like that, right?
Oh no, it's worse than that.
According to what she said to me yesterday was that she had supported our relationship the whole time, which wasn't any amount of truth at all.
Uh-huh. Because when we started going out, she had told her that if we were...
I think the rule was we could only hang out if a parent was around.
Right. And then the rule was only if friends were around, and now we're allowed to hang out alone.
And, I don't know, her mom's really, really, really controlling.
Sure. So any amount of control she loses, she tries to fight back in another way.
Right.
So like the whole time I'm over here being a good person and showing what a good person's like.
My dad's a good person, I'm a good person, my brother is a good person.
She's seeing how bad her mom and her family are and she's like, "Why can't you guys act this way?" And so it's become like a big battle.
Right, right.
Now... Again, there's no way to psychologize people from a distance, but it seems to me that the mom freaks out when the daughter is in a situation where she could be having sex.
And again, I'm just totally guessing.
Oh yeah, that's really a part of it.
Right, and so this is not designed to give any empathy towards the mom, right?
But just so you can understand where the psychology may be working in this kind of situation.
This kind of instability and sexual paranoia may be resulting from something like the fact that her mom, this girl's mom, was raped when she was 16 or 15 or something like that.
And so she's terrified that that's going to happen to her daughter And the way that she manages that anxiety is by trying to control her knowledge of the whereabouts of her daughter.
And so she's... I mean, this is not to justify anything the mom is doing.
It's totally outrageous and horrendous behavior.
But just so that you can understand the kind of psychological motivations that might drive a mother to become hysterical and abusive in situations where she's afraid, and this could be totally unconscious, that her daughter might be...
And again, nothing to do with you, nothing to do with her daughter even...
Where her daughter might be in a situation where some bad things might happen to her.
Actually, that's how she sort of manages her own anxiety.
It's a total wild theory, but that would sort of fit with some of the facts.
And that's the kind of depth of problem that you're facing in this kind of situation.
So, I mean, if advice is, you know, you never want to give advice to anyone.
I mean, I know that sounds weird coming to me like 12 million podcasts, but a couple of things pop to mind and, you know, take them or leave them, whatever works for you.
If you really want to help this woman to, and of course, if she's considering what she's considering, which is what you've done, then we can't really call her a girl because, you know, she's...
It's a very mature thing to look at.
if she feels that you're not there running your ugly little teenage boy eyes up and down her daughter's body or something like that.
It's a possibility that that might be one of the contributing factors.
And the other thing that's more possible, if you say that her dad is laid back, I think that it seems to me, I get the sense that you come from a kind of community where the parents look at each other differently than they look at the teenagers, right?
So if you got your dad and you and this girl and went over to her dad's place and said, look, this is not a sustainable situation with the mom, right?
The mom is like saying, get out of my house.
And then the mom is saying, if you leave this house, I'm calling the cops.
This is a situation that could end up with your daughter being locked away.
This is pretty bad. This stuff should be taken very seriously.
You have an unstable, crazy mom on the warpath, and you have her daughter who is going through the naturally rebellious phase of teenage years who's going to lose it one day.
You did, I'm sure, with your mom.
I sure as hell know that I did with my mom.
She's going to lose it one day.
And she might do something that she regrets, whether that's saying something or doing something, right?
But this is a situation where the tension is just going to rise and it's going to rise until somebody does something really stupid, right?
So this is not a kind of, you know, well, it'd be nice if you could take her in.
This is like, you know, this girl has got to get out of this house.
And if you and your dad, maybe the girl too, I don't know, goes to her dad and says, look...
I know that this may not be the most convenient thing.
I know you work 24 hours, but she's 15.
She's going to be 16 next year.
She knows how to cook. She's legally allowed to stay on her own.
You've got to do something.
You've got to step up as a dad and do something to take the pressure out of this situation.
It may not be permanent, right?
It may not be permanent. Maybe if she and her mom get separated for six months or whatever, That something can occur.
There could be conversations that are less hysterical that could occur to try and find some way of living together more reasonably.
But that's the approach that I would take.
I mean, obviously you care about this woman and I think that's wonderful.
I don't think that being romantically involved in her...
I don't think she's in a state to make decisions about romance at the moment, right?
She's kind of fighting for her life, if that makes sense.
Like fighting for her soul, for her psychological health.
And I think romantic involvements at this point...
Is not a good idea, right?
Plus, I mean, again, I don't know what the laws are as far as statutory stuff goes, right?
Where you are. But you could also be compromised that way as well, right?
Not by the laws. As far as the age of people that you're allowed to have sex with?
The way it works in my neck of the woods is you have up to five years leeway.
Oh, I see, I see, I see.
So you're not compromised from that standpoint?
No, no, no. Like, I could be 20 and have sex with a 15-year-old and I'd be okay, which I think that's kind of gross.
Just not 21, right, okay.
Just not 21. Got it.
It could be the day before a birthday.
Right, right. And if this is someone, and this is a hell of a lot to think about right now, but I think it's important, right?
I mean, you can never start thinking about this stuff too early, or at least I sure as hell wish I'd started thinking about it when I was your age.
Let's say that this is a woman that you might want to spend some considerable time with in a relationship at some point in the future, right?
You all can't have a really relaxed courtship with like screaming, banshee, cop calling mom on the warpath, right?
That's not going to work for sure, no matter what your intentions are and what it is that you'd like to do in this situation.
You just can't have candlelight and wine and I guess you can't have wine either, right?
You can't have candlelight and walks on the beach when you've got, you know, crazy mom with a shotgun riding around in a convertible or something, right?
So I think that if you really like This girl, then whatever you can do, and you obviously care a lot, which is great, and you have some knowledge based on the stuff that I've talked about and your own experience, of course, more importantly.
You have some perspective and you can look at the map and try and figure out how to get this girl into a safe haven.
And I think that the safe haven is the dad.
And I think that the adults in your community kind of need to do something here.
Because this girl is like drowning in the water, right?
And people have got to step up and do something about it.
And there is a place where she can go.
If you're interested in a long-term relationship with her, then I think if you continue to be romantically involved with her at the moment, It's going to add more fuel to the fire, especially if the mom's paranoid about that kind of stuff.
Sorry, go ahead. I know you keep going back to her mom's paranoid about us being sexually active or whatever thing, and that's actually something she had said to the dad yesterday.
She had said...
Well, they're sexually active and I don't want her living near him or something.
Sure. Well, I mean it's totally bogus because I know her mom's scared of it.
You know what I mean? Like I know her mom would freak out if we did.
So it's been kind of a, you know, let's put that off a little bit until her mom's a little bit more secure about our relationship or whatever.
Yeah, but if she's crazy, like if she's crazy, then she's not going to believe that, right?
Yeah, of course not. Right?
So, I mean, I really – I do appreciate and respect the sensitivity that you're showing in this area, but I think it's got to be hands-off policy for you to have any credibility, and I think that needs to be explicitly expressed to the dad or to the mom.
Again, if you take this advice, and you sort of mull this over, but – You need to get her out of that pressure cooker situation.
She needs to obviously learn philosophy or whatever it is that she's interested in to try and gain some perspective.
She needs to read some books on child abuse and read some Alice Miller books and whatever Nathaniel Brandon books so she can get a sense of the kind of veil of tears that she's had to struggle her way through.
If you can get her into some kind of safer haven, and that may not be permanently with the dad, right, because there may be a lot to ask for him, but, you know, maybe it's six months, maybe it's three months, anything that you can get where she gets out of the pressure cooker with her mom.
If you can take a step back from the romantic side of things and be there as a friend and really try and help her to get her to a safe haven.
Then what happens is, you know, a year down the road, maybe things have calmed down a little or two years when she's got some independence, then you guys can pick up, right?
She's going to be in a lot better position to be able to make decisions because right now she might be making romantic decisions for all the wrong reasons, right?
She might just bug her mom.
Again, I'm not saying she doesn't care for you, but there's a lot of this stuff that's layered over top, right?
And so I think that you want her to be free to choose you, if that makes sense, because then it's a really rich and viable choice.
But you don't want her in the middle of all of this hurly-burly and craziness to make romantic decisions or sexual decisions at the same time.
If that makes sense, that's kind of a lot to put on someone.
Yeah. Yeah, I got that.
I mean, I understand what you're saying.
Yeah. I know I'm going to have to think that over.
Yeah, listen, I mean, this is just some guy in Canada, right?
So, I mean, you know your own heart.
You know this woman. But I can certainly tell you that she's got a heck of a lot on her plate right now.
And she's not going to be a very happy person for quite some time.
I mean, no matter what you do, you could wish her into some sandals resort in Barbados.
She'd still be miserable for six months because she's been verbally abused her whole life.
She's beaten down. Yeah.
She's beaten down.
And you need to give her the room and the space and the support as a friend so she can build herself back up.
Then when she builds herself back up, she's going to choose you with freedom, with joy.
But right now, she's desperate.
She's beaten down. And whatever you get from her romantically now is not going to be very stable.
Yeah. I mean, I was definitely thinking along those lines recently.
Because I know if I'd have had at least a friend or somebody...
Who had seen the whole thing happen and watched as I had to defoo or whatever then I know it would have been way easier for me.
Yeah, she needs someone to help her chisel away at this horrible thing of the family cult, right?
Because, my God, I mean, if I was 17 and somebody said, hey, you know what?
It's actually not that big a virtue to see your family.
You see people who are good to you and good in your life, but there's no such thing as automatic virtue for just having a kid.
I could have saved myself like 15 years of misery with my family.
So the fact that she's got someone like you in her life that can help her to start to unravel some of this cultish fairy tales that she's got about her family, I mean, what an incredible gift that you would give to her.
And when she gets free of all of that, right, then she might be a great person to date or whatever, but you know what it's like.
I mean, God, to have to reinvent the wheel on your own, the fact that she's got you and a resource maybe like the podcast is...
It's going to do a hell of a lot of good.
And I think that's an incredibly great thing for you to do, right?
I mean, just by the by, right?
And, you know, when we've struggled through something on our own, we can help somebody else out who's got the same issue.
Boy, does that. It doesn't make suffering good, but it's the best thing you can get out of suffering.
Yeah. Yeah, I totally get that.
It was definitely really helpful to find the podcast because it was like an answer.
Right. Yeah.
Well, I'll tell you what. Listen, I've given you a heck of a lot to chew on.
And what I did was, obviously, this is not a podcast, right?
But I do record everything that comes in.
What I'm going to do is I'll compile it.
I'm not going to publish it, of course, right?
Because there's names and there's private stuff and so on.
But I'll give you the link.
And then you can just listen to it again or once or twice more, whatever you like, you know?
And if it would help the girl, you could play it to the girl or whatever.
But, you know, I just totally salute you for thinking about this stuff, for trying to help this girl.
I mean, it really is a wonderful thing that you're doing and it's going to pay off, I think, in terms of your own self-respect and happiness as well.
All right. That sounds great.
Okay, man. Listen, keep in touch.
Let me know how it goes and I'll send you an email.
Actually, what I'll do is I'll put it in the Skype window where I put the podcast.
Okay. All right. Thanks, man.
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