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Dec. 28, 2006 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
39:51
575 Dream Analysis: Okinawa, Korea
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Time Text
Just getting ready to go outside.
And let's have a chat about a dream.
I'm going to go for a short walk today.
And I'd like to have a chat about a dream that a gentleman sent in that is quite powerful.
is something that exposes the nature of a wide variety of things, familial structures, imperialism, and a military father, a military family.
So, let's...
Actually, I don't really need my gloves, since I have to handle paper.
Let us remove our gloves.
Make this a little bit more sensible.
Alright, so, let's have a look at the dream first.
The gentleman says the following, North Korea dream.
I visit North Korea with my parents, my brother, and one of my sisters.
We stay in a two-room kitchen and living room area, white cement blockhouse, similar to military housing we stayed in when my father was stationed in Okinawa, but smaller.
We do some sightseeing together, but I forgot this part of the dream, except the impression that it was rather uninspiring, unemotional, an experience to spend time with my family.
It was a rather uninspiring, unemotional experience to spend time with my family.
Later, the U.S. suddenly invades, and mortar shells are raining down all around.
We don't leave, and for some reason I don't initially ask why.
Eventually, I notice that everyone is acting like nothing is wrong, and ask, and my mother...
Sorry, the typo in the post.
I notice that everyone is acting like nothing is wrong and ask my mother why we're not leaving.
She says that my father doesn't want to.
I ask him, and he, depressed at life as he is sometimes want to be, replies that he's waiting for a mortar to come crashing through the roof.
I get pissed and say that I'm running before we get caught or killed.
My mother says she'll come and begins to pack the dream ends soon after.
I should know, because that's the end of the dream.
And he says... I should note that sometimes when my father got depressed at his life, he threatened to kill himself to gain sympathy.
Occasionally he'd blame us for his miserable life, and he threatened to take us along for the ride.
For instance, one time we were traveling to visit Tijuana, a Mexican border town.
When I was about six or seven, he got pissed for some unfathomable reason, and he swerved the car towards one of the street lamps in the freeway median until, while he threatened us in a depressed and angry sort of way.
And then somebody asked him, I just wanted to know, has your father, although your father may not have talked about it directly, was he ever involved in combat?
Also, was he a lifer and got out before he started behaving so self-destructively and aggressively, or was he still in the Marines when he began behaving this way?
You said Okinawa, so I assume he was in the Marines, and it really makes a little difference what branch.
The Marines tend to be more collectivist and brainwashed, and therefore self-identify less as a free agent than as part of collectives such as the Bork.
To which he replied, He never saw combat, but he started behaving that way before he got out.
His own father was a drunk who beat his children rather senselessly, so I suppose that's where the seeds were planted.
He enlisted in the Marines towards the end of Vietnam and missed that.
Once his enlistment was up, he took four years of college, which coincided pretty closely to the first four years of my life.
During that time, he treated me fairly decently, though my mother treated me with minor contempt.
After college, he became a Marine officer.
That's when he started beating me and becoming hateful towards everyone.
I suppose the training in manipulating enlisted men seemed useful at home.
He missed out on the first Gulf War because he had an administrative job, and then he retired because, before the most recent misadventures, though he wouldn't have been able to go as he was by then in bed.
So thank you so much for posting this dream.
It is a very interesting dream.
I'm going to mention just a little bit about Okinawa for those who aren't aware of it.
Okinawa is a highly controversial, at least two Okinawans.
Okinawa is an island to the south of Japan, where a terrible battle was fought in World War II, where there were reports of the Japanese killing the Okinawans for food, herding them out of the caves they were taking shelter in, starvation, mass slaughter, mass rape, as you can imagine, 250, 260,000 people killed, just an absolute butcher house.
of a war, and the Americans have taken enormous amounts of the Okinawan real estate for their own military bases.
And they're not subject to US law, they're not subject to Japanese law, they're kind of an anarcho-capitalist version of hell, where you have a non-competitive, non-law, self-policing kind of antithesis of the DRO system.
But it's very anarchic in its own way and it really is a might-makes-right kind of anarchy in the traditional sense.
There have been about 5,000 crimes committed by the US servicemen since the early 1970s and there's massive environmental predation, enormous amounts of accidents, planes crashing into schools and killing dozens of children, All of the kind of oil spills and explosions and crashes that you would naturally associate with a military base full of a bunch of sociopaths.
I don't know the mechanics of how the money gets transferred from the US to Japan, but Japan pumps billions of dollars a year into the Okinawan economy, thus crippling it completely.
And making most people totally dependent on either the US basis for their income, government transfers or tourism, of course, as well.
It has little native sort of labor.
And there have been some very highly publicized cases of child rapes.
A bunch of US servicemen in the 90s grabbed a 12-year-old girl and Cyril raped her and then got off with a couple of years in prison.
And even that wasn't guaranteed because The Japanese government was very slow to act because Japan can't enter the U.S. bases.
So, the U.S. adopts a veneer of legality in Okinawa by saying, well, we lease this land and therefore it's legal for us to be there.
One of the towns, 70% of the town, actually no, 82% of the town is covered by U.S. bases and The actual residents of Okinawa have to live in the remaining 18% of the town.
It's a pretty dismal situation when there was a rally to get rid of the US bases, or to at least push them out as soon as possible.
It's the same thing. Sorry.
Redempted. At least reportedly, you never know the figures.
850,000 Okinawans showed up.
And, of course, their will to the great democracy, their will meant nothing.
So Okinawa is a real slice of hell and a real training ground for sociopaths.
It's a playground for sociopaths, really, the US basis in Okinawa.
It is where the government, as I said before, war and these kinds of situations is where the government really gets to be itself.
And so when this gentleman was stationed with his family in Okinawa, It's not surprising to me that a dream of returning to that particular kind of place should figure.
Because this is a terrifying social environment for a child.
Because children very much understand implicitly what's going on in social situations.
It's a terrifying environment for a child to be in this kind of sociopathic Hellish, state-sponsored, mercantilist, top-down, hegemonic anarchy where sociopaths can do pretty much what they want with fear, almost no fear of repercussion.
Now, the interesting thing, though, for me, there are many interesting things about the dream.
Let me just return back to the first page.
The interesting thing is that the dream is taking place within a house that was originally in Okinawa but the unconscious has translated or has moved the house to North Korea now I'm sure everyone's perfectly aware of what's going on in North Korea what kind of country North Korea really is so I'm sure there's no particular doubts about all of that but it is very interesting that In a land where he actually was,
in Okinawa, in the military bases, the Marine bases in Okinawa.
Which is supposed to be a slice of protected US property, and it's supposed to be for US interests.
It is really an extrusion of a hellish kind of environment into the Okinawan Peninsula, or the Okinawan Island.
But in the dream, He is visiting North Korea.
North Korea, of course, is a hellish dictatorship.
King Yong Il, I think, is the Elvis-haired, pompadoured, short jerk who runs it.
And he's visiting a dictatorship.
So his brain is bypassing any emotional associations or any leftover patriotic associations he may have.
with the base in Okinawa where he was stationed with his father and is saying it was actually this house was in a dictatorship and that's quite important as we'll see as we as we move on so they do some sightseeing together which is a very odd thing to do in in North Korea I mean it's it's a dismal hell on earth right there's nothing to see So it's quite fascinating to see that there is sightseeing going on,
and unfortunately he's forgotten this part of the dream, and I don't know if he has any other associations with sightseeing.
Certainly sightseeing is one of these things that families do, so they don't have to talk to each other.
They go for drives, they play games, they play I Spy, they play all these games, all the games in the world, And they'll go and see sites and they'll take photos and they'll say stand close together and what do you want for lunch and who needs to pee and let's go through this bit of history or do you know what happened here or do you know what happened there?
Families will have an enormous stock of mindlessly, blindingly dull topics that are specifically engineered to avoid any potential kind of intimacy or exchange of true emotion or thought or feeling.
Sorry, I don't know why I'm Mr.
Redundant today. I'll probably say that a few more times as well.
Oh well, the language center.
She may be short-circuiting. I've spent too much time with data lately.
And sightseeing is a pretty emotionally empty experience because what you have There's a great line from some Nicolas Cage movie.
The Sarah McLaughlin song was in it.
Meg Ryan, She Can't Sleep.
Some angel movie. It's a remake of a Wim Bender's film.
And in that, she's eating a peach.
And he says, what does a peach taste like?
And she says, you don't know what a peach tastes like?
And he says, well, I don't know what it tastes like to you.
It's a very interesting comment.
And very empathetic.
It's a fundamental of empathy.
I don't know what it feels like to you.
And sightseeing is a family rolling around looking at stuff.
And any sightseeing that I've ever heard of, and all the pictures that you've ever seen from people who've been sightseeing, is That they're standing there staring at the Louvre or the Arc de Triomphe or some flooded street in Venice or some damn thing.
And they're taking photos and so on.
And it's a family looking at a bunch of stuff.
And hey, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with stuff.
I can take a good museum tour.
Well, actually, I can do two hours at a museum, then I can pretty much fall over.
But families don't say to their children, Well, how does this vista, how does this thing, how does it make you feel?
What does it think? What does it make you think?
What is your reaction to it?
They're all standing there, and somebody talks about the history, and somebody says, this looks pretty, or somebody says that looks pretty, or somebody says that they've got to pee, or they're bored, or they're hungry, or they're tired.
And it really is just hurting a bunch of lonely and disconnected people around various sites in the world.
And that emotional emptiness that is involved in sightseeing is something that most people who've had some experience with family know exactly what that's all about.
And I certainly have had my experience of it.
I went to Africa to visit my father twice in my life for quite some time each time, and it was brutal.
Oh my God! Oh my god, yes, he could tell me about every single bird that ever existed.
He was quite the ornithologist, amateur ornithologist, and of course he was a geologist, still is, I think, and so he could tell me all about every single rock formation and sedimentary layer and everything going on and how they mine for gold and all these goddamn things.
Like, I can get that shit from a book, thanks.
If I was even interested, right?
No question about whether I'm interested.
I remember when He came to visit me in Montreal about 20 years ago, I think.
He ended up teaching a lecture on the geology of Africa at McGill, which was where I went to school.
And I went and sat in another classroom and he gave his lecture.
That's all very nice, but it was also very sad and cold on his part.
Sorry, minor deviation here.
Maybe it'll show up somewhere.
But he was quite keen.
Obviously he took the time to secure for himself a lecture at a university that I was attending.
He told me when it was and he went and did it.
Was this because he wanted to impress me?
It's kind of hard to be impressed by a guy who leaves you in the care of a psychotic woman, right?
Oh, but if you can give a lecture on geology, that makes you a great guy.
I mean, just hope how people think when they try to justify themselves and how they avoid the basics is just astounding.
But this sightseeing issue and the emotional emptiness that goes along with it, first of all, there's nothing to see in a dictatorship anyway.
And secondly, you're with a family and you're sightseeing.
And for almost all families, that just means That you all go and stare at something and you don't ever communicate about how that makes any individual feel.
So, that's a very interesting sort of moment that there's an emptiness in going around with the family.
Now, later in the dream, the US suddenly invades and water shells are raining down all around.
This is a very interesting juxtaposition because we have A U.S. military base house, at least the emotional connection with that, a U.S. military base house in North Korea, and then the U.S. invades, and that's quite circular, right? So, in North Korea, which is an enemy, we have a base house that was originally associated with Okinawa, and then the U.S. is invading.
So the U.S. is both inside and outside.
And that's a very odd thing.
Mortar shells are raining down all around.
We don't leave them for some reason, he says.
I don't initially ask why.
Eventually I notice that everyone is acting like nothing is wrong and ask my mother why we're not leaving.
She says, my father doesn't want to.
Now, the father is fairly pure, distilled evil.
In my opinion. Somebody who threatens to wipe himself out and a child while driving on a highway, not to mention somebody who is drawn to living a brutal marine lifestyle as an imperialistic occupier of a country that certainly has no capacity or willingness or desire to harm the United States.
That's pretty much pure evil.
And somebody who takes his father, sorry, his father takes his family, we can assume that the father is the one responsible for this for the most part, because the mother is deferring to the father in the dream, right?
So the father takes, the military father takes the family to North Korea.
And then there's an invasion.
Now, a military man must have some idea when an invasion may be imminent.
I think that's a fairly safe assumption.
You may not know exactly when it's going to occur.
But I think it is fair to say that somebody who's been in the military, of all the countries in the world to go and visit, might have some idea about North Korea being a potential for an American attack.
And so to take his family to North Korea I mean, if you go to Italy, you're pretty safe, right?
If you go to China, you're pretty safe.
But if you go to North Korea, there's a risk, let's just say, and that risk is then fulfilled.
So the father brings the family to Okinawa, and then...
America attacks, and the father must have had some knowledge of this, and must have had some desire for this, to take his family and put them in a highly dangerous situation.
A suicidal situation, really, when the U.S. attacks civilians drop on flies, as not just the U.S., but any place.
So there's a suicidality, a murder slash suicidality in the father, bringing his family to a potential war zone, and then refusing to take cover.
When the shells start raining down, the waters start raining down.
There is no particular nobility to suicidality, of course.
It's a fairly... I mean, except under a particular situation, terminal illness and so on.
But I've never been a big fan of some sort of German writers from the 19th century who wrote about the desirability and nobility of suicide.
Goethe, one of his first novels, The Sorrows of Young Werther is about just this.
But there is a kind of incomprehensibility, and I can feel this in the dream, a kind of incomprehensibility to somebody else's behavior.
I could never for the life of me understand what my mother and my father and my brother...
I could never understand What made them tick?
And I think that there's a certain amount of incomprehensibility here in this dream as well.
I just can't fathom why people end up in this situation where they're moody and they're upset and then they're angry and then they're happy.
I mean, I don't know if it's just random biochemistry.
I don't know whether it's people just getting possessed by demons.
It seems almost... That's strange to me.
How people's moods can be just so truculent and random and so on.
So, I can't really understand my own family and never have been able to.
And I can't...
I could never predict my mother's moods or what would make her happy or not happy.
And, whereas, I mean, I perfectly understand...
I perfectly well understand Christina and have a fairly good handle on myself, so...
It's not that human nature is incomprehensible to me, it's just that really random and deranged people are, by their very nature, unpredictable.
So, there's no nobility to suicidality, but there is even less nobility, anti-nobility, in suicidality that manifests itself as threats towards others.
I mean, if you want to kill yourself, go kill yourself, but don't Kill yourself, or try to kill yourself, or threaten to kill yourself with your kid in the front seat of the car.
And I'm sure this happened a number of different times in different ways.
And if you want to kill yourself, then kill yourself, but don't become a Marine and start screwing up everybody else's life.
God knows what his father got up to in Okinawa, along with the other sociopaths in this lawless society that they run there.
So... Of course his father doesn't want to leave.
His father brought them there to get them killed.
Right? This is a kind of petulant rage against reality that a suicidal person who just decides to kill himself says, I can't find a way to be happy while living.
I cannot find pleasure in living.
And, okay, that may be a mistake, I think it is, but It's a personal decision, right?
It's like somebody taking heroin.
It's your deal. But somebody who is so petulant and angry that they say, not only can I not find pleasure in living, but life is such a hell that it denies me what I want, and therefore I'm going to frighten, terrorize, and brutalize other people in petulant reactionary rage against the mean-spiritedness of life which constantly thwarts me.
I mean, that's a very, very different state of mind than somebody who's merely depressed and suicidal.
So, this father wants to die and wants to kill.
And he feels this way because he is petulant rather than some other motive which may be less criticizable.
And so, when this gentleman asks his father and says, why are we not leaving?
And he says, I'm waiting for a mortar to come crashing through the roof.
This hatred, this savage, bottomless evil of threatening children with destruction because you're petulant and pissed off about something in your own life, is absolutely stunning.
I swear I cannot find any compatibility with my own species, or at least with certain aspects of people within my own species at times.
It's just astounding.
How could anyone do that?
How could anyone look at their own moods, look at that particular situation and say, I think what's a really good way to do it?
I think a really good way of dealing with my own unhappiness Is to threaten my child with a fiery death in a car.
That's a kind of sadism.
Of course, it's not a kind of sadism.
It's sort of the essence of sadism.
That when you yourself feel petulant and frustrated, that you reestablish some sense of control by terrifying other people.
And...
Sorry, nobody can see me talking into my Rios.
Once people fast fire, I take a break.
So, when he says his own father was a drunk who beat his children rather senselessly...
It's a very interesting word, senselessly, and I think that's partly why the dream is coming up.
That... The world from the outside is sort of co-joined with the core, with the home, right?
So the larger world outside, the US threat that's coming in, is also occurring within the inside, right?
So we have this little house that is mirrored by something in Okinawa, in this house.
There is a family, and the outside world, the US is attacking from the outside, is attacking this house.
And this gentleman wants to flee the house.
I mean, there's almost like the...
I'm not sure that I would, in the real world, try and flee a house that was being shelved.
I have no idea. Is it safer to be out in the open, or is it safer to be in a house?
I vaguely get the sense that it's safer to be in a house, because this man's desire to leave It's somewhat of an indication that the US is really targeting only this house in its attack on North Korea.
And that's an important thing to understand, just the logic in the dream.
I don't know, like you go to the basement or...
I don't know what you do, grow under a table or something.
But I'm not sure that I would go out into the open when there's mortals flying around.
You don't even get the protection of walls from shrapnel.
So... If he leaves the house, then he leaves the war.
And again, he can correct me.
Please, you can correct me if I'm totally wrong about this, as of course anything in this dream.
But the interesting thing is that he pauses to ask his mother if she'll come with him.
And then his mother...
Let me just check here.
I get pissed and I say that I'm running before we get caught or killed.
My mother says that she'll come and begins to pack.
Now, that's interesting as well and I'll just sort of end up on this particular aspect of it.
His mother says that she'll come and then she begins to pack.
Well, I'm not sure, again, if shells are raining down on a house and the only way to escape the shells is to run away from the house.
I'm not entirely positive that I would stop to pack.
And I think this is an indication in the dream that this gentleman's mother is not conscious of the danger that is floating around, that the shells are raining down, the US is attacking.
And that is something which is It's very hard for people to see, particularly in this traditional configuration of the violent, murderous, suicidal father, or just violent father, and the enabling mother.
This is something that is hard for people to see, that the mother doesn't want to live either.
And, of course, if you're married to a man like this, and you've enabled and participated in this highly distilled evil of his life, I think it's hard for us to see this, that the mother also doesn't want to live, right?
Because the shells are raining down in the house.
To leave the house is to gain some level of safety.
And the mother says, well, I'll be with you in a minute, dear, but first I want to pack.
That is not a mother who wants to live either.
I don't care what I've got in my house.
If shells are coming down, the only way to flee the shells is to flee the house.
I'm not sure that I'm going to start folding my undies into a bag.
Unless I really don't want to live myself either.
So this is the great mystery of the enabler versus the enactment.
The person who acts out versus the person who enables the acting out.
And it's very hard for us to see That somebody who chooses a man like your father and chooses to stay married to a man like your father is themselves evil and do not want to live.
So she's saying, well, we can't leave because your father doesn't want to leave.
And then you say, well, I'm going to go.
And she's like, no, no, no, no, wait.
I'll pack. So she doesn't want you to leave yet either.
She wants you to stay. And I bet you the dream ends shortly thereafter and I bet you at the end of the dream you're not free sailing to greener pastures with your mother.
Because when you want to tear out, your mother says, wait, I'll pack.
She's keeping you there.
And our sympathy for these women runs so deep and it's so irrational.
Understandable, but irrational.
And I bet you so many of us in these particular situations look at our mothers and say...
She had to live with this terrible man.
I have sympathy for her. Look at how she was raised.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But your mother had children with the sociopath.
Your mother left you exposed and alone with the sociopath.
Your mother did not intervene to protect you from this sociopath.
So, the idea that, as it seems there is in the dream, quite strongly, this idea that your mother is deserving of your protection or consideration or care or concern this idea that your mother is deserving of your protection or consideration or care or concern for sure. The idea that your mother is somebody that you need to rescue from this prison.
You know, there's the nice cop and the nasty cop, but they're both still cops.
There's the God who beats you and there's the God who dresses your wounds so that you can be beaten again.
They're both sadists. They're both part of that system.
So I think that the dream certainly is about making your father's psychological nature more known to you.
And I think that's fairly known to you already.
But I think the dream is more fundamentally about your mother.
That Sightseeing with your mother and your father and your family is emotionally empty.
That you're taken to a dictatorship by your father that's about to get attacked.
That your father doesn't want to leave.
Your father spirals down and wishes to kill himself, wishes to kill others, but in a petulant way.
In a thwarted kind of way.
And your mother is keeping you there through distraction and through Professions of a desire to leave.
Oh yes, well if you're going to leave, then I do want to leave this house as well.
But first, let me pack.
Well first we can't leave because your father doesn't want to.
And then, you can't leave because I have to pack.
So, I personally would not be at all surprised if you wish to defoo or have defood with your father, but are having a tougher time with your mother.
And it is the non-obvious, right?
This is the black hole orbiting the sun, the maternal influence on this traditional constellation of parental crimes, that the father is the actor and mother is the enabler.
But if you think, I mean, this is the paradox that occurs, this is the challenge that occurs when we think that one parent is more virtuous than the other.
Either your mother and your father are equally corrupt, which would be my opinion, or your mother is less corrupt than your father.
If your mother is less corrupt than your father, then you face the challenge of explaining just why this person who is less corrupt and therefore has a stronger sense of right and wrong.
You have a tough time, I would think.
You're going to have a tough time explaining why she did nothing to protect you.
Let's just say, if you would like, that your father is a blind, raging beast with no control over his actions and therefore holds little moral blame.
But your mother is not somebody who is a blind, raging beast with no control over her actions unless has some degree or level of moral responsibility.
Fine. Well then, Your mother is more morally culpable than your father for failing to protect you.
If your father is this sort of vague, drunken, angry, rending bear who's simply a born predator or had any kind of integrity or ethics beaten out of him as a child, therefore is not morally responsible for his behavior, fine.
Then your mother, who is supposedly less corrupt, holds more moral blame for Failing to protect you, for bringing you into this marriage, failing to protect you in this marriage, failing to leave and take you with her, which she could have done relatively easily.
I mean, compared to times in history when it was much harder.
So, I don't see that your mother gets off the hook at all.
If your father is purely evil, I mean, just on the other continuum, If your mother is purely evil, but your mother is unable to tell right from wrong, then it's hard to understand why she would have ended up with such an evil guy.
And then it would have been sort of randomized, right?
She would have had a good guy, she would have had an evil guy, who knows?
But she sort of zeroed in on this totally evil guy.
And that must indicate some capacity to see evil within her own nature, some knowledge of evil.
And she stayed with him.
If she was somebody who had no corruption within her nature, no self-hatred, no hatred of others for unjust reasons, and she was just sort of morally neutral, then when he started beating her, she'd say, ow, that hurts. So when he started beating her children, ow, that hurts.
That's bad. And then she'd leave him.
But no, she stayed and she willingly had children with this guy who she knew was a bad guy.
So the moral neutrality doesn't make sense either.
She chose him. She chose to have children with him.
She chose to leave those children in his tender mercies at regular intervals.
And so that doesn't sort of work either.
So there's really no way that your mother can be taken off the hook for the moral crimes that she has...
Committed against her children.
And so I think that it's very tempting for most of us to look at the sweet mother propaganda and say, well, my mother did the best she could in a difficult situation.
As if she was sort of chained or enslaved.
Well, there's no law that says women have to get married.
And there's certainly no law that says women have to choose guys like this.
And there's certainly no law that says That women have to remain married to guys like this.
So, your mother is a sadist as well, according to the dream.
I'm not sure what's going on in real life.
I'm just looking at the dream. That your mother is a sadist as well, but you have a sentimental view of her and a desire to save her from the situation.
But the dream is telling you that she does not want to be saved.
That all she wants is for you to stay.
And I don't know why it is we don't think that women can be as sadistic as men.
Your father enjoyed torturing others in the army and we recognize that fully and completely.
But of course those people chose to go into the army.
Whereas your mother enjoyed watching the children get tortured by your father.
That's her kink.
Let's just put it as nicely as possible.
That's her sadism. Your father enjoyed torturing His recruits and your mother enjoyed watching you get tortured.
And she wants you to stay so she can continue to watch you get tortured by your father.
And my strong advice is...
And feel free, of course, to post any corrections that you like on this.
My strong advice is leave the whole goddamn mess behind.
Your mother and your father are an integrated system of sadism and masochism and punishment and hatred and destruction.
They both enjoy... Bullying the helpless.
It's just that you, as a child, were far more helpless than any of your father's recruits.
So, that would be my suggestion as to what the dream is about, and I would certainly be more than happy to...
I know that these are always difficult conversations to have with people, and you can let me know whether or not that makes sense, and also if you'd let me know what the current status is with their family, that would be most helpful.
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