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July 20, 2006 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
32:29
339 Empathizing With Difficult Parents

Ways to understand and empathize with abusive parents - and yourself!

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Time Text
Good morning, people. I hope you're doing well at Steph.
It is the ridiculous time of 8.38 in the morning, and I slept somewhat poorly last night.
Do you know I had a job interview last night?
It's very interesting. This is the first time this has ever happened to me.
I had a job interview last night, and this was a third-string interview.
I'd already met with the executives, and I was meeting with the chief technical guy because, obviously, I would be a sort of threat to his career, so I had to meet with him and the senior team together.
To try and get him to understand that I wouldn't join the company, or at least I couldn't be successful within the company unless he felt that me joining the company was going to advance his career.
I was going to help the company grow relative to if I wasn't there and I wasn't going to be in his way, but rather at his back.
So we were having that sort of negotiation.
So it's kind of interesting.
And this is a company populated by young people.
And I've spent most of my career around fuddy-duddies who, you know, you have to remind them which way the keyboard should point up so that their typing is more effective.
And I guess being younger people, they know the latest tools, so rather than do references, all they did was they Googled me.
And lo and behold, naturally and of course, they ended up coming across my blog.
And I guess they came across the podcast, but I'm sure they didn't listen to them.
But they came across my blog, and the chief operating officer read a couple of entries.
And so I've never had this question before in an interview, and I'm sure I will have it again if I don't go for this job or this job doesn't go for me.
But it was the question, we do business in the South, how are you going to handle if political topics come up during business meetings or during client dinners or whatever?
And of course that was a very interesting question.
And so I said I don't think I've ever had a detailed discussion of any kind of politics in my business career at work.
I said I would not bring politics or philosophy to work any more than I would bring my business problems to a political group meeting.
It's two separate worlds, and I don't believe that it's at all an appropriate venue.
To bring those topics up.
Now, of course, if somebody's really interested and so on...
So it turns out that this guy's really interested in politics, although he was a bit startled at my philosophy, I guess you could say.
So he said, well, you know, it's a big bubble for me, right?
So at the back is communism and fascism.
And... In those areas, I view those sort of as uniting around the back.
So it's, you know, the same problem that the Nolan chart describes.
And that, so I'm a centrist, I'm a liberal, which up here doesn't mean a socialist.
Well, I guess it sort of does, because everything means socialist up here, but...
Liberals are sort of the same thing.
And so I said, well, but...
And he said, because, you know, he said I believe in smaller government, which is a nice and refreshingly constant theme these days.
But he said that he believes that too small a government produces problems, right?
Too big a government, right? So he's a moderate, so to speak.
And I said, well, I'm sure that you and I agree on 95% of the same things, right?
And so the important thing is to understand that we agree on...
I said, if you could convince me, for instance, that no government would result in civil war and baby bonfires or whatever, then of course I would reject the idea because I'm an empiricist, first and foremost.
And if... But if I could convince you, and I'm not saying I ever would, but just sort of as a thought experiment, if I could convince you that no government resulted in peace and prosperity, right?
We're both interested in peace and prosperity, right?
That's what we have in common.
We're both interested in the best possible working of society for the vast majority of people, and we're interested in a society that can continue, a society that is prosperous, a society...
And a society wherein...
If we had a choice between using force to achieve something and not using force to achieve something...
I mean, everyone around this table...
There were four people around the table.
I guess three and myself.
I said everyone around the table, given the choice between something coercive and something peaceful, is going to choose something peaceful.
So we're absolutely in agreement that a prosperous, happy, peaceful society is the best thing.
We're also in agreement that...
In a choice between using force and using non-force to achieve, if the same ends can be achieved, then we're also in agreement about that.
We're probably in agreement that everybody should have the same rights.
We have an enormous amount of things in common.
And I have taken it probably a step or two further than you would feel comfortable, but that's fine.
I mean, I said I spent 20 years sort of where you were, thinking small government is better, but we need a government, and that's fine.
And then I sort of worked on an alternate philosophy for a variety of reasons.
But it's not a case of, I want this mad world of shaven-headed people riding leathered-up motorcycles, that sort of stuff, and you want a peaceful world and I want some sort of violent world.
We both want exactly the same thing, right?
So that's the important thing.
We're doctors who want healthy patients, and we have two different cures, but the important thing is to recognize that we're both doctors and to recognize that we both want healthy patients.
So, I don't talk politics at work.
It's not really appropriate, and I'm certainly happy to talk politics with you, but I would certainly suggest that if we did want to do that, and I mean, it's a passion of mine, so I'm very happy to do it, but if we did want to do that, we wouldn't start with politics.
Politics is very much the end continuum of a philosophical series of conversations that would start around politics, You know, the nature of reality, the nature of knowledge, the nature of truth, the nature of virtue.
I mean, before you start, I mean, because he started bringing up, you know, well, there are poor neighborhoods where the cops don't go, and they're really bad, they're sort of run by drug warlords and so on.
And I said, well, and, okay, I'll just give you one other, because he mentioned that, and I said, well, For sure, we both recognize that that's a bad situation, right?
So again, we both recognize that that is an unhealthy situation, and we both want to find ways to alleviate that or to create situations wherein that's going to be less likely to occur.
So again, we're totally on the same page.
Like, we wouldn't be on the same page if I said, no, I think we should have more neighborhoods with cars on blocks on fire and, you know, single moms and gangs and drug crimes and so on.
We both recognize that's a bad thing.
I would not say that those kinds of poor neighborhoods are suffering from a deficiency of government, right?
Because... The governments control the educational system in those areas.
The governments control the roads.
The governments control the public infrastructure.
The governments usually control the housing, right?
It's sort of public housing of one form or another.
The governments control the taxation.
The government controls the money supply.
The governments control the price of foreign goods because of the import duties or subsidies.
The government controls the drug laws.
So it's hugely corrupting, in my view, to have poor people able to make $500 or $1,000 a day for an hour or two of work, which all has to be under the table.
Or in the black market, you could say, in the criminal market.
And of course, we have the government controls the welfare system, which could be argued has an enormously negative effect on families and stability of that.
So when you're looking at these, and also, last but not least, the government police don't want to go there.
I think that's also pretty important.
It's not like the government is allowing other options to come along in the area of security.
So the government has created, in my view, the government has done an enormous amount to create these environments and then does not police them.
So the government creates, let's just say the drug laws, the government creates the drug laws which cause the violence and then doesn't go in and police against that violence.
And I said, I can understand why the cops don't want to.
It's not like going in and getting shot at is going to stop the price of drugs from rising and therefore the incentive for people to deal in these substances.
But I would say, and I'm not going to try and close the case here, I'm just sort of telling you this is sort of my approach, that I would not look at that kind of situation and say that what we have here is a deficiency of government power, control, regulation, taxation, and Security.
We certainly have a deficiency of security, but that's what the government's supposed to provide.
So, you look at that, and I can totally understand why, and you could be right.
This is just sort of my ideas, right?
I mean, you look at that and you say, well, there's an example of a deficiency of government.
And I look at that and say, well, there's an example of an excess of government.
And... I don't know any way that you can have a government and not have that end up.
That's sort of the problem that I have.
And I said, trust me, it's a curse as well as a blessing.
I enjoy it intellectually.
But if you could convince me that I'm wrong or find some way that logically or in some manner I could change my mind back to where you are, that would be great.
Because being an anarchist is a little bit of a strain at times.
I mean, I'm on the web and you do get these kind of funny looks, so I would be more than happy to discuss it with you, but we would have to start not sort of with statistics of the ghetto, but we would have to start with metaphysics and we'd have to start with epistemology and all that fun stuff, because otherwise we're just sort of arguing numbers in a vacuum, right?
And I don't really base my philosophy on numbers.
It all has to be validated from numbers, and numbers are the ones that start the whole trend going, but So, it was an interesting discussion, and I could tell that his partners weren't that interested.
He was obviously very interested in politics, but he had a great deal of concern, because I'd be on the road and talking to clients and so on, that I'd be down there, you know, we're trying to close a deal if I join this company, and I'm sort of denouncing the fascist warlord imperialistic state called America.
Would you sign right here and do business with us for the next couple of years, face to face?
Well, no, of course not.
And of course, in America, you face that additional problem of talking about the war.
You never know who's got family members over there, although you can pretty much guess that if you're at the level of selling software contracts in an organization, their kids aren't over there for sure, right?
I mean, the most pro-war people are the people of the upper classes who don't have any risk of their children going over there, which is probably not an accident, of course.
But it was a very interesting interview because...
I've never really had to face that issue before.
I guess I haven't interviewed with anybody who's Googled me since I've put up free domain radio.
But I can imagine that if I want to join younger companies where they do that, as the guy said, why bother with a reference check when you can run Google?
Well, I find that kind of interesting, and I guess I'd better start getting ready with some answers for that, because it is a startling and fundamentally...
I mean, this guy didn't even read down to the stuff about the family, and I don't think I've got a huge amount about the family on my blog, because I find that stuff is...
You have to write a book if you're going to talk about the family.
You can't just sort of write a short article.
And... I don't know if anyone else has faced this if they've been Googled, but I'm just putting it out there that if you do end up getting Googled, then you're going to have those questions.
And then what you should do is say, I'm sorry, I have to call El Presidente and he'll tell me what to say and then pretend to talk to me.
That usually will get you off the hook.
Of course, I can't do that.
Well, I guess I could. I actually do have two cell phones, but that might not have progressed my chances with this company, so...
Anyway, an interesting interview.
I like these guys.
I like this group. It's not the largest company in the world, but I sure would like to work with people who've grown up with technology rather than these guys in their 50s who are like, ah, software.
How fascinating. And also I'd like to have the opportunity because I'm fairly loosey-goosey in meetings and I like to make jokes if they strike my fancy because I think you might as well be having fun.
If you've got to be at work anyway, why not make it as enjoyable as possible?
And what I can often do is I can...
I can get a laugh out of these fuddies, but then they sort of feel vaguely guilty.
And also they then associate a light heart and verbal wit with irresponsibility, which of course is not the case at all.
I mean, you can have the most fun in the world and be entirely, entirely responsible and disciplined.
And I've never really found that to be any kind of opposition.
In fact, I find that responsibility and discipline add to fun.
And I also think it's not very responsible to be overly serious at work.
Because your first responsibility is to have fun, right?
I mean, in the long and short term, so I just find it's kind of false selfie.
So anyway, these guys are sort of young and hip, and I think would be a fun group to work with, so I'm definitely going to...
I've had three interviews with them now, and also we have a couple of beers and some finger food and interview that way, which I actually find kind of nice, because otherwise I'm in a...
As I was earlier this week, I'm in a boardroom with a VC, eating up the oxygen, telling me what a great guy he is and how my resume isn't a perfect fit for the position.
Although, of course... I had the meeting with this VC earlier this week, a venture capitalist, and he said, well, it's not a perfect fit for the position.
And I said, well, what's yours? And he already told me his history.
And I said, well, was yours? I don't mean to sound confrontational, but was yours a perfect fit?
Because you're a CEO. You don't have an MBA. You don't have a degree in economics or finance or business management, right?
And you're doing a VC thing.
And I said, I fully respect that.
But, of course, if they'd applied that criteria to hiring you, Rather than what they did do was recognize your talent, energy, and intelligence, then you wouldn't have gotten this job, and I assume that you're effective because you're interviewing me, so I think that this sort of, I've got to walk through a particular kind of outline, might not be valid for this position, maybe.
I mean, I'm just sort of putting it out there, but, and of course, he didn't really like that, right, that he's now...
It's like when you talk to people about immigration.
Well, you should stop immigrants from coming in.
Oh, really? When did your family come here?
Oh, about last generation. Huh.
And the standards that you're suggesting, would they have kept you in the old country or would you be here now?
People just don't like it, right?
They just don't like it. I didn't really think that I was going to get the job, so I just sort of wanted to point out that it's kind of hypocritical when you've wandered in cross field with no experience in your resume to get you the position, but then you're in there and you start interviewing other people who obviously have a lot of skill and ability, and he recognized, he said, you know, skill and ability you've got in spades.
But I just sort of found it funny that he would then say, but, you know, it's not a perfect resume fit.
It's like, really? That's all you've got?
Yeah. If it was a perfect resume fit, why would I need to be interviewed?
You interview to find out if I'm intelligent.
Anyway, so I don't think I'm going to get that one.
And I don't think I wanted it.
Once you get that kind of stuff in an interview, it's like the first date.
Your date starts picking her nose with a chopstick.
You're sort of like, alright, so I guess I'll ask for the check as soon as humanly possible.
But... Anyway, so I thought I'd just have a short chat this morning about something that was going on on the boards yesterday, and I think that a useful back-and-forth went along that might be worth throwing out to other people who are trying to figure out their family issues.
I think we may have...
I think there are two people out there with family issues, and I'm one and a half of them, so if the other half is you, this might be of help to you.
So, one fine and munificent poster...
I wrote that he was, for a variety of reasons about a recent podcast, he wrote that his father would hit him with a belt.
I was just sort of trying to help him understand sort of what that means.
And so I'll put these sort of things out as a thought exercise for you so that you can understand your parents, not in a projected fantasy preference way, but in an actual sort of real way.
So the best way to empathize with someone is to try and imagine what it's really like to be them.
And it's a little hard to imagine, and a bit schizoid to imagine, oh, okay, so I'm my dad, and I'm beating my younger self.
With a belt or something.
And that's not something that's really the easiest thing in the world to do.
And it's a bit confusing.
And it feels, frankly, kind of weird, right?
It's like I'm beating myself.
And it's also sort of vaguely masochistic.
So I don't recommend that as a thought exercise.
But a thought exercise which you can do to help understand your parents would be something like this, right?
So why do parents claim the right to beat their children?
Well, because parents are older and wiser and know better.
And frankly, because they're stronger and bigger and stronger.
Well, that's fine. And if you disobey, if you're a child and you disobey your parents and you lie and so on, they beat you.
That would be one sort of premise.
I beat you because you're bad or disobedient or ignorant or something like that.
I mean, that's sort of what goes on.
And what I would suggest about that, to think about as a thought exercise, is to imagine that as you get...
Let's just make it a one-stop relationship.
Your father gets older, and he begins to show signs of mild dementia.
So he's forgetting stuff, and he's putting the stove on and forgetting to turn it off, and he's forgetting his phone numbers, and just all that kind of stuff.
And let's just say he then comes to live with you.
This sort of mild dementia, or it could even just be as simple as the natural, sort of semi-natural deterioration that occurs with the brain when you don't really work it and you age, right?
It's the same thing that happens with the muscles if you don't exercise.
And your father moves in with you, and you, of course, have these rules, right?
Like, don't turn the stove off and leave it.
Sorry, don't turn the stove on and leave it on.
And make sure you hang up the phone in its cradle.
And don't leave the TV running when you go to bed.
And don't leave the water running.
And, and, and. You have all these rules, right?
Which, you know, is kind of equivalent to the rules that you had when you were a kid.
Now, when you're a kid, of course, your brain is developmentally, you know, relative to what it is when you're 30, you're pretty retarded, right?
Children are, by adult standards, retarded.
But it's kind of true. Both emotionally and physically, right?
The brain just doesn't have the neurons.
You don't complete your brain development until you're early to mid-20s, right?
So when you're, you know, age or 10 or 12, you don't have the attention span, you don't have the ability to process consequences, you don't, you're just missing all of these fundamental things that you take for granted when you get older.
And so it's not your fault if you forget something.
I mean, it's not your fault if you get distracted.
I mean, you really are, you know, juggling a bunch of live weasels when you're a kid in terms of attention span and so on.
And that's biological, right?
So it's not like you're bad.
You're just dealing with what you're dealing with, right?
It's like calling someone bad for being short.
You know, it's like that's not the case.
So, your father comes to live with you and you have all these rules and he breaks the rules.
So, he leaves the TV running and falls asleep.
And he leaves the water running and wanders off.
And he leaves the stove on and doesn't turn it off.
And then he doesn't put the phone back in the cradle.
Now, you know more than he does.
The difference in brain chemistry or brain development doesn't matter because it didn't matter for you when you were a kid, right?
You just had to be responsible and remember everything and, you know, all of the things that you were bullied about.
So that doesn't matter.
And you're physically stronger, of course, right?
So the fact that you're physically stronger is fairly important, I think, in terms of helping to sort of delineate this ethical issue or this moral problem.
So you fulfill all of the conditions of abusing another human being that your father imposed upon you when you were a child, when your brain was still developing and you were disobedient or you did things that were against the rules or you lied, when your brain was still developing and you were disobedient or I mean, maybe your father is a little bit doddery and he just sort of lies, right?
Or maybe he lies after what we're going to talk about in a moment, which is a little tough to stomach, but it's important to look at it square on in the face so that you can understand your parents if they were verbally or physically abusive.
So when you discover that your father turned the stove on and left it on, what do you do?
Well, you say to your father, GET DOWN HERE! And then you grab the belt from around your waist and you unbuckle it and you snap it and you throw your father down on the couch and you raise your arm and, you know, non-buckle side down if you're in a good mood and buckle side down if it's the fifth time, then you start to beat him violently with the buckle or the non-buckle of your belt.
And you feel the shock of the belt hitting his sort of old and sagging skin.
He cowers.
He tries to cover his face.
He tries to cover his groin.
He rides around trying to present his least vulnerable aspect to you.
And you continue to thrash him, to beat him, to get him to learn that he should not leave the stove on.
And he has to, you sort of take one of two approaches, but generally it will be, based on the conversation on the board yesterday, generally it will be something like the moment he begins to cry and blubber and scream out with pain and promise to change and beg for mercy, then you are somewhat sated and you can will yourself to stop beating him.
And he may have welts, he may not have welts, but he is absolutely terrified now.
I mean, he's a little old, he's a little doddering, he's completely at your mercy, he can't phone anyone, he's got no friends, and he can't remember where the cops are, so you're just beating him and beating him.
And that is how you solve the problem of him, say, forgetting something or doing something or being disobedient.
Now, of course, what's going to happen is he's going to try and hide all of the things that he does wrong because he's terrified of another beating.
And so you're going to start to catch him in lies and in prevarications and cover-ups and so on, which of course is going to make you want to beat him all the more.
So now he's trapped in this position where he's going to forget stuff because he's getting old, and he gets beaten for forgetting stuff, so he's going to want to cover it up.
But if he tries to cover it up or lie about it, he's going to get beaten even more.
And so this is the situation that you're in.
Now, you are beating a helpless and defenseless and physically weak and mentally degenerating old man.
How does that make you feel about yourself?
You look in the mirror and your arm is aching from thrashing this helpless old man and your belt is making horrible sounds on his flesh and he's squirming and crawling away from you and blubbering and screaming and crying as you beat him and beat him and beat him.
Well, do you feel that you're like doing this for his good?
Do you feel like a good person?
Or does it absolutely, as it does to me, does it absolutely turn your stomach and make you feel repulsed by your own existence to be this kind of bully to somebody who's old and helpless and mentally degenerated?
Now, your father, in this scenario, still has nearly infinitely more independence and control Than you ever had as a child.
Right? He can wander out into the streets and people will call the cops and you will get arrested for beating your father.
And you will be charged with assault.
And your father can get put in a home where he can live independently of you even if he has no money.
None of those sorts of things exist for the children, really.
And so you still, your power differential with your father is still far, far less than it was when you were a child with your own father, when he was the big, strong, more knowledgeable with a fully functioning brain person.
Or I guess I wouldn't say fully functioning if he's beating you.
But I think this is a very useful thought experiment to go through.
It is...
Really important to understand the moral horror of what we're dealing with when we deal with physical abuse of children.
Now, you can easily switch this scenario to sarcasm, to verbal venom, to calling him a stupid, an idiot, a jerk, screaming at him.
He's still going to stare at you wide-eyed and terrified and be crying.
And I'm not sure that it's a whole lot better than beating him with a belt.
To snarl at him and say, you stupid fucking idiot or whatever, right?
Scream at him. I don't know that that's really a whole lot better.
And I still don't know that you're going to look in the mirror and say, yeah, I lived a good life.
I did a good thing today. I screamed at a helpless old man.
I beat him. I called him stupid.
I maybe hit him, beat him or pushed him or...
I sent him to his room and I refused to feed him.
It's a hard thing to do, but I'd really recommend that you try to do it because I think that as people who are naturally virtuous, we really have a tough time.
We really have a tough time understanding evil.
And I think it's well worth understanding evil because sometimes the charge of naivete can be thrown at people who are naturally good.
I certainly know it can be thrown at me unless I work hard to remember what evil is like and what it does.
I mean, that to me is a pretty important aspect of understanding the world, that you kind of need to get into the skin of the opposite in order to have a well-rounded view of the world and to really understand what's going on.
So, taking this approach, where the punishments that were meted out upon you as a child, that you are able to mete out that punishment to your aging and decrepit adult parent, And how would you feel about yelling at them or beating them or shaking them or not talking to them for getting really angry at them and then not talking to them when they're totally helpless and dependent upon you?
And if your adult parent then tried to run away in his doddering fashion, that you would simply laugh at him and scorn him and say, yeah, yeah, go, whoever can take you is fine with me.
And how would you feel about doing that?
Would you feel like you were doing a good, kind and gentle thing to somebody who was helpless and dependent?
Would you feel like you were doing it for his own good?
Would you feel like you were taking the high road?
Would you feel like you were making the world a better place?
Or would you feel like you were exercising a sick, sadistic and pathetic level of violence and abuse and control over somebody who was helpless and dependent upon you?
And, of course, in this scenario, whatever you feel, you can multiply it by about a thousand for your parents.
It's important to understand your parents.
It's important to understand who they are.
Because otherwise, given the dysfunction in the relationship, you're going to have a tough time understanding.
What the real mechanics are.
This is why if your parents were abusive and you stopped seeing them, they won't miss you.
Because they're constantly afraid that you're going to bring this stuff up.
Sometimes it seems like virtually the entirety of human social interaction is a massive smokescreen for evil.
It's all designed to simply cover up evil that has occurred or is occurring or will occur.
So that's why we get all this nonsense and small talk and silliness that goes on where nobody can ever talk about anything.
Or if they do get angry, they get angry about things like politics rather than the actual history of the interaction, which I think would be a tad more authentic and honest.
But this is human life, and they're constantly afraid that you're going to bring it up.
And the closer you get to self-awareness and simple acceptance of basic truth, which is a very hard thing to do, in my experience...
The closer you get to it, the more terrified they're going to be, and the moment you bring it up, they're done with you.
The moment you bring it up, they don't want to see you anymore.
Now, they're not going to say that, because to say that would be to admit that they were evil in their actions towards you when you were a helpless, independent child.
And to continue to be so, to the degree of relative power diminishment, it's less so, but continue to be negative and critical and difficult with you as an adult.
So your parents are not going to break with you because that would be admitting that there was something really wrong.
But the moment you start bringing this stuff up, they don't want to have anything to do with you.
I mean, just try and picture if you can.
Just sort of close your eyes.
Do this. It's hugely valuable.
Just take 20 minutes. Close your eyes and imagine your aged parents doing something wrong and imagine beating them and imagine screaming at them and imagine pushing them and imagine their wide, terrified, pleading, crying eyes.
Imagine their helplessness. Imagine their despair.
Imagine their depression. Imagine their anger.
Imagine their thwarted nature.
Imagine their Horror at looking into the future and realizing that they have to live under your thumb for another 15 years.
Imagine what it does to your relationship to beat another human being.
Can you relax and be chatty and happy and healthy?
No. Now, also, finally, imagine how you would feel.
This is a little trippy, but it's still worth doing.
Imagine all of that, and then imagine how you would feel if the situations were then suddenly reversed.
This is a bit trippy, but it's still useful.
So you've been beating your old man for 15 years or so, and then imagine that suddenly he gets an elixir of youth, which turns him into a 30-year-old strapping healthy man again, and you get some sort of paraplegic injury which puts you completely under his mercy.
Well, how are you going to feel?
Are you going to feel terrified?
Because you're going to know deep down in your gut that there's all this shit stored up and all this horror and abuse has been stored up.
And that's exactly how your parents feel about you.
Terrified. Absolutely terrified.
They know that the situations are reversed and they're absolutely desperate for you not to figure that out.
And so that's a pretty good thought exercise to go through.
I think it's really going to open your eyes and give you some degree of flexibility about trying to understand your parents and give you some knowledge of evil, which a moralist really, really has to have, right?
We don't want to be the doctors who know about health but have no idea what illness means because we really can't cure anyone then.
So I hope that's helpful. Thank you so much for listening.
I think the website's still up.
We're still chewing away on the server issues, but thank you so much for listening.
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