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April 28, 2006 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
32:50
214 Social Corruption

The hidden wars of social integrity

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Good morning, everybody.
It's Steph. I hope you're doing well.
It is quarter to nine on the 28th of April 2006, and I'm going to do a little chat about a controversy on the board this morning, followed by half a movie review.
Now, I say half a movie review not because I've realized how long it does take me to actually chew on a topic.
I'm not going to get finished, but because I've only watched half the movie.
But I think that these two things are related.
I don't know exactly how nice a bow I'm going to be able to tie them into.
But we are going to try and hopefully wrap this whole package together in a way that I'm just never able to do with Christmas presents.
As they say in Libertopia, winter solstice celebration transfers of property rights.
Anyway, so the debate on the board is really this.
It is... At what point do you say to somebody you have a relationship with that you no longer enjoy their company or, you know, phase them out or recognize that that relationship is going nowhere?
And, of course, it is, to my mind, one of the most challenging aspects of libertarianism, which is the problem that my suggestion being that you get rid of relationships where people don't share your values.
And by that, I don't mean that they like the same bands you like, although if they don't like Queen, I have a tough time with them already, obviously, but where they don't share the truth, where they don't share your methodology.
And that, to me, I think is a pretty important thing.
I've talked about it quite a bit, so everybody knows my perspective on that.
And so the question is, one gentleman on the board said something like the following.
He said, I have a friend...
Who knows everything that I know, everything that I believe about the welfare state.
But we're walking around, and this gentleman will say, when we see a homeless person, oh, there's another person that you want to die in the streets.
And that, he said, creates a bit of a rift.
Really? I can't imagine that.
I mean, if you are basically being accused of a desire for genocide by someone, I mean, let's not fool around with this topic.
If these ideas are real, and somebody is directly accusing you of wanting poor, defenseless, homeless people to die by the thousands or the millions the world over, I wouldn't really let that one slide myself.
I really wouldn't let that one slide because there's a number of reasons why this is problematic, obviously, and then there's, I think, a number of reasons that are not obvious that make it problematic.
The first, and this can apply to your family as well as it can to your friends.
Now, the first and most obvious reason is that this person knows your values and is not debating them, but rather is using a false argument for morality to paint you as about as evil as a human being can be.
Because he's not saying, you want to kill these homeless people.
This is the old die in the streets argument.
This person is not saying you want to kill homeless people.
He is saying you want to create circumstances under which all homeless people will die.
And that is the difference between being a sociopath, which for some reason everyone is frightened of.
I mean, come on, people.
Everyone, and it's not just people here, but people that we talk to and so on.
Everybody's frightened of the sociopath who, I don't know, what's the record?
Someone, 20 people, 30 people killed in the course of an entire lifetime.
I think there's one doctor operating the public health system in England who killed, is implicated in the deaths of a couple of hundred people.
Well, of course, that's in the public health care system where people just get shunted around.
It's like the Roman Catholic clergy.
It's not something... There's a way into the room.
There's just no way out of the room.
Even if you try to burrow out through your parishioners.
Children, that is. But...
So, I think 20 or 30, the average serial killer kills a couple of people, and it's news!
It's news! And so people, oh my god, the serial killers, how will we survive without the state protecting us from the serial killers?
Well, first of all, of course, the state does not protect you from the serial killers.
I mean, that's just laughable.
I mean, forget about your CSI and these people working dedicatedly night and day.
Just trace the history of pretty much any serial killer and realize how many clues and how many suggestions and how many call-ins and how much evidence was just shrugged off.
I mean, see, nobody wants to start investigating a serial killer because then you're responsible for completing that investigation.
You just want to shunt it off and hope they'll move on to someone else, right?
Because it can be a real career destruction for a policeman or, I guess, an ambitious rising young policeman, a real destruction for the career in the public system.
If they identify that there is a serial killer, they draw all those maps that they always do in those serial killer movies.
You know, he seems to like Compton.
And they try and find the patterns and so on.
And you see these people working dedicatedly.
But in the real world, of course, no policeman ever wants to be faced with a serial killer, especially if it's one that's prayed in his neighborhood, because there'll be all these questions about why the serial killer wasn't found before.
And they'll get sued.
And the victims of the families will hold press conferences.
And they'll look really bad.
And then they're not going to be able to find the serial killer anyway.
Because they're the cops, right?
The public? I mean, they're no different from any other government agency.
They're as incompetent and as ridiculous, as self-interested, and so on.
And so, there's just...
I mean, the government doesn't protect you from the serial killers anyway.
They don't look for them. The worst, if they do ever suspect one's there, they'll cover it up, or they'll try to get that person to move on.
But they sure as heck won't start investigating and try and solve it.
That's the last thing. I mean, I'm not saying that there's stone evil any more than the welfare people on the line don't want to help the individual welfare person, but it just, you know, it's the logic of the system.
It just... It's the same reason communism never works.
It's the logic of the system. It's completely destructive.
So this person who wrote on the board about his friends saying, oh, you want all the homeless people to die in the streets, he's not being accused of being a serial killer because that would limit the deaths to, I don't know, maybe like a dozen or two dozen or whatever.
He's being accused of genocide.
He's being accused of wanting to set up a system wherein thousands or millions of people will starve to death or freeze to death or die in the most horrible manners and so on.
So that's a fairly, I guess, not unimportant conversation to have with that person.
I mean, I would never, never...
Let that pass by.
And I'm not saying this because I'm such a stalwart, honorable guy.
It's just that I have had these conversations, and I know what's at the root of them.
And I'm guessing this person hasn't had these conversations and doesn't know what is at the root of them.
But these conversations go like this.
So you really am accusing me of genocide?
No, no, it's just a joke, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, you know, it's a joke that does end up accusing me of genocide, so help me understand the humor in it.
Well, we've argued these points a number of times.
I'm just trying to lighten it by making a joke, blah, blah, blah.
Well, I understand that, but you're still, the joke implies that I want thousands or millions of people to die.
And so it seems to me that the joke, I'm not really sure where I get the humor in genocide overall, but the joke is still at the expense of me and my honor and that you're saying I want people to die and so on.
And you're going to go back and forth like that with the person going, ha ha, just kidding, blah blah blah.
But the fact of the matter is, A, it's not funny, and B, it's an accusation of genocide.
I mean, the two are somewhat related, but you can't really call that a joke, right?
And so what's going to eventually happen, and I can guarantee this if you stay the conversation long enough, the person's devil, the false argument for morality that they're working with or that was inflicted upon them as a child, will rise up and strike back with the following.
At some point they're going to say, Oh, so you get all offended because I accuse you of being careless about the lives of the homeless, but you have no problem saying to me that I am interested in holding guns to people's necks because I support taxes.
So how the hell are you getting all offended at me and still remaining friends with me when you're saying to me that I'm ignoring the gun in the room and saying that there's all this violence which I'm tacitly supporting by supporting the state and the welfare state and so on?
So how on earth can you get on your high horse and accuse me of violating your honor when you're saying to me that I'm worse than genocidal?
I'm morally supporting universal violence.
And you know, my friends, that person is absolutely correct.
And that's why... We don't pick up these threads.
I don't think it's to our honor that we don't pick up these threads.
And I have, when I was younger, didn't pick up these threads from time to time.
And because I knew, I knew, I knew, I knew, I knew that if I picked up these threads, that was going to be it.
That was going to be the end of the relationship.
Because it is not a premise that a relationship can survive.
As I've talked about in podcast 183, If you believe that violence is evil and you continue to associate with those who advocate the use of violence against you, forget about universal violence and the East Timorese and the whoever, it's against you, right?
If they say, I support taxes, I support this, I support public education, And you've explained to them, like, you know that that means that even if you agree with it, it means that they're pointing a gun at my neck and will pull the trigger if I don't agree.
Like, you recognize that you're counseling that I get killed, and if that person says, well, yeah, but, you know, that's still the right thing to do.
Then I don't see any difference between that kind of socialist and a Christian who is saying to you, oh, yeah, okay, I know that there's some stuff in the Bible, blah, blah, blah, that is negative or hostile, and you say, okay, well, you know there are these 12 passages in the Bible that says I should be put to death for not believing in God, and they say, yeah, but I think that's the right thing to do.
I think you should be put to death for not believing in God.
I mean, people, help me, help me, help me, help me figure out How the difference occurs.
What is the difference between those two positions?
Whether you should be killed because you disagree with public education, or you should be killed because you disagree with the existence of God.
I don't really see the difference myself, and that's why I sort of say that these two positions are essential to understand, because they're the same position, right?
You're talking about the abstract existence of something which has supremacy over each individual, whether it's the society, the state, the race, the collective, or God.
It doesn't matter. It's the same damn principle.
So, I personally, this is, I mean, I do no disrespect to this gentleman who is an extraordinarily fine gentleman, but this is sort of how I would perceive that conversation.
That this person who is accusing me of wishing the deaths of thousands or millions of people, I would never let that stand in the face of my honor.
I would never let that pass.
And I would absolutely make sure that we had the time for a long conversation, sit down and say, okay, we have a serious disagreement of opinion here, and it's absolutely offensive to me.
And I'm not going to say that you're a bad guy.
We're going to explore it. I'm going to be curious.
But help me understand what's going on here.
Because when you sort of, on the one side, toss off this stuff about me wanting the deaths of millions of people...
Call me crazy, but I find that a bit of an affront to my integrity, to my honor, to my virtue.
I just got to tell you that accusations of genocide, I can't sort of just shrug them off and say, oh, well, I guess he just likes that band and I like this band.
To me, that is a pretty direct and pretty horrendous assault on my virtue, so we got to figure out what's going on here.
Either I'm wrong about my virtue, in which case, obviously, I'll apologize for being offended at you, or you're wrong about accusing me of these things.
And the thing that bothers me the most is that you're accusing these things of me obliquely, right?
You're not even saying straight up, look, your theory, let's sit down and figure this out.
You're sort of tossing it off in a cowardly aside, and then ha-ha, laughing it and moving on, right?
Which I think is not giving the topic the respect to which it is due, which is the life and death of millions of people.
So I don't appreciate that at all.
And we need to figure out what's going on for you there, and also we need to figure out how it comes about.
But this is not something that I can just sort of let pass.
And I had exactly the same conversation with someone who was a Christian who, after I... From the call-in show, who I am once or twice since, can attest that when people are in a state of curiosity,
and even if I disagree with their principles, I am very pleasant and positive about their curiosity, and I'm always open and willing to admit that I'm wrong, but we always have to continue using logic and rationality and empiricism as our guide.
I'm perfectly pleasant to people who are still curious and still figuring things out.
Now... If then somebody who then finally says, yes, I do understand and do accept this heinous evil in the Bible or this heinous evil in my philosophy that says, if you do not agree with me, then you should be killed.
I do accept that now, and I renounce that.
God be praised!
This man is a hero! I really mean that.
I mean, that is a heroic step.
The reason that people don't take it is it splits them off from their entire community.
I mean, it's a really heroic step to take, to renounce the use of violence, to renounce ideologies which advocate the use of violence, to openly...
It makes being gay and coming out look like admitting that you got a perm, if you're a woman.
To actually and openly say, yes, I renounce ideologies which advocate the use of brutality against innocent people, you know, that is a really big step to take.
So I would have some sympathy with the person who's tossing off these asides.
What they're basically saying is, I can't join you over there because I'm too frightened of my community.
But you've got to have that level of honesty in your relationships.
And I don't care if you guys like clubbing together.
And I don't care if you guys like going to the same concerts.
And I mean, life is more important than that.
The truth is more important than that.
Reality is more important than that.
If you have been given the gift, and it is to some degree a gift so far, if you have been given the gift to see the truth and to recognize the value of pacifism, don't waste your time hanging out with people who are accusing you of genocide.
Don't downgrade the ideas.
Don't spit in the face of truth and honor and integrity and virtue by associating with people who accuse you of genocide.
Sit down with them brother to brother and figure it out.
And you will find that they will absolutely toss you to the wolves because any human being who's capable of making a ha-ha joke, tossing it off to one side, that somebody who's interested in pacifism is actually genocidal, is not somebody who's going to be able to make it to the land of freedom.
And it's regretful and it's sad and I would recommend having that conversation so that you can see.
But this is just a basic fact.
This person is not going to join you on your journey.
And they're going to trip you and they're going to slander you and they're going to slur you.
They're going to slow you down. They're going to make you feel wretched.
They're going to make you feel small.
They're going to make you feel pitiful.
You know, be honest with this person and have this conversation.
And have these conversations with people in your life.
It's worth it. The truth is worth it.
And you will be happier on the other side of it.
It's not like you strip off all these people or get rid of them, and suddenly you're like, alone, and all you can do is chat on the free domain radio boards and listen to podcasts.
It's not the case at all.
You get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which I guess for once the leprechaun doesn't lead you to.
And the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is you have great, great, great relationships with the few people who remain.
And you stop wasting your time with all the people who are immoral.
I mean, isn't the outright advocation of somebody else's murder for disagreeing with a premise?
Isn't the initiation or the advocation of the initiation of the use of force against a legally disarmed victim, is that not somewhere in the land of evil?
I mean, am I completely out to lunch here?
Isn't supporting an ideology which causes the death or maiming or depression or destruction of billions of people around the world, is that not something to do with evil?
I hate to put it that starkly, but I didn't make up these ideologies, and neither did I make up their effects.
I'm just observing and telling you what the facts are.
So if advocating the millions of murders that occur around the world every year through states, and I include in this the destruction of people's lives and hopes through brutal and oppressive taxation, which is occurring all throughout the Western world, the deaths of people that occur through...
The socialized medicine and government interference in medicine through the withholding of protective drugs through the FDA and the release of destructive drugs through the FDA. And you could go on and on, but just...
All of the crap that goes on, all of the murder and destruction of human life that goes on through the state system, not to mention Iraq and not to mention all of the overseas adventures and all of the people in China, people who actually advocate that states should exist after they've been told the truth, are they not participating directly in that great evil?
And does it really matter that they're friends and family?
I mean, of course it matters emotionally, but I'm just talking about from an integrity standpoint.
Win them over. Do your best.
Win them over. But if you can't win them over, you do have a terrible choice to make.
And it's not a choice that I'm imposing on you, and it's not a choice that they're imposing on you.
I mean, they are to some degree, but it's really a choice that's based on reality.
And you can say that, yeah, okay, people do advocate my murder, but I'm going to hang with them, and people do advocate genocidal policies, but I'm going to just close my eyes to that.
And that's fine. You can do that.
But then don't blame the world for being bad, because you're directly participating and contributing to that badness by collaborating with people who are evil, with people who advocate the deaths of others, who voluntarily and with open eyes applaud murderers.
And cheer them on and encourage them and think that murder is virtuous.
That's fine. Then you can't complain about the world.
You can't be bitter that the world is not better if you continue to give sanction to and support evil people.
You can't then say, you know, I keep giving all these evil people my approval and I keep not talking about how evil they are and I keep withdrawing from any conflict around good and evil...
And I keep going over for barbecues and going to concerts and going clubbing and hanging out with and giving them some presents and saying I love you and giving them big hugs.
All these people who advocate that I get killed and that hundreds of millions of other people get killed.
I keep doing this and you know for some reason the world just doesn't get any better.
See, they, we can say, if you want to be as nice as humanly possible, you can say that they don't have a choice.
But you have a choice.
You have seen deeply enough to understand.
You have a choice. And if you exercise that choice and get the bad people out of your life, then you are doing something great for virtue.
And I think that that's wonderful.
And if you don't, that's fine.
Then just accept that you're part of the evil of the world and you've just got to be honest with yourself and say, yeah, I don't have the courage to do it.
I don't have the guts to do it.
That's fine. I know how horrible it is.
I'm not saying that you have to.
But just be... All I'm asking for is honesty.
And I'm not asking it for me.
I'm asking it for you.
Because the alternative is bitterness and incomprehension.
Well, why the hell is the world so bad?
And why the hell isn't the world getting better?
And why is the world so sick?
And why are we heading in the wrong direction?
And how can people be so stupid?
And blah blah blah blah blah. I want to free you from that.
And there's only two ways to free you from that, and they're based on the two choices.
If you get the bad people out of your life, then your life becomes immeasurably better and freer and you're happier and you're bothered less then by the corruption in the world because it doesn't wash over you.
You're not in the belly of the beast.
You're not swallowed like Jonah in the whale sloshing around in the bile-filled innards of other people irrationalities and calling it fun and heaven and paradise and great and intimacy and family and all that kind of stuff.
And if you choose not...
To get the bad people out of your life.
Because you don't really believe in virtue.
And you don't really believe in truth.
And you don't really believe in integrity.
And you don't really believe in freedom.
That's fine. Then don't.
But then for Christ's sake, stop whining and complaining about everybody being bad and the world not getting any better.
Because you're part of that mess then.
If you're out there giving sanction to evil people or people who advocate your death, and you go and hang out with them, and you have little chats with them, and you have the occasional ha-ha little arguments, then you're giving your sanction to people who advocate your murder and the murder of others.
Well, of course the world's not going to get any better.
In fact, the world is going to get worse because you know the truth and aren't acting on it.
I mean, if you're one of these rare people that this laser beam of truth comes down from the heavens through this sickening soup of fog and smog of modern philosophy and modern corruption, if you happen to have your forehead lit up by this beam and you say, I'm for virtue, I'm for truth, I'm for integrity, I want freedom, I want the free market, I want no state, I want little state, whatever...
If you're one of these people lit up by this light of truth, you are the person then who, by corrupting that truth, puts it out across the whole world.
And you are the person that corrupt people around desperately need your sanction, more than anything else, more than each other's sanction.
They desperately need your sanction.
They desperately need you with the light of this truth on your forehead, which they can see.
They can see from frickin' space.
They can see from Jupiter this light is so bright.
If you give your sanction, that is the best thing in the world for them, because then they recognize that you're virtuous.
They recognize that you know the truth.
And if you continue to give them your sanction, not only will you be destroying the cause of truth and failing to help the world become better in any way, shape, or form, but you're also being incredibly cruel to them.
You know, I said that the vengeance, vengeance, my vengeance, my petty vengeance when I was younger, was to continue to hang out with people who were corrupt but no longer fight them about their corruption.
And that was the cruelest thing that I could do.
For a large number of reasons.
One, it diluted my belief in my own truth and gave me self-hatred.
And there's nothing you can do about that. It's inevitable.
If you continue to hang with people who are happy that you get killed, you're going to hate yourself.
I mean, there's no way...
How could you logically avoid it?
It would be completely incomprehensible to avoid it.
It makes absolutely no sense that you would not hate yourself if you continue to hang around with people who want you dead.
Yeah, you think I should be killed, but let's go to the mall.
I mean, is that not self-hatred and self-doubt and a doubt about truth and morality and integrity and honesty at the most fundamental level to collaborate with your murderers?
Is that not self-hatred and a complete absence of self-respect at a very, very primal level?
And you can get that. You just have to start acting, right?
I mean, you have to act with self-respect and then you get self-respect.
Like, you have to act healthy and then you get healthy over time.
I mean, you sort of wave your wand and wait to be healthy, right?
I'll wait till I can run a marathon before I run a marathon.
It's like, no, you work towards it with that goal in mind and slowly you get there.
But the cruelty of continuing to hang around people when they see the light of truth on your forehead and they know exactly what you're capable of and they understand your arguments and they know that they want you dead, but you continue to hang out with them, is that not the most cruel of actions?
Because it is certainly possible for it to be the case that if you withdraw from people because of their corruption, and you state explicitly that you are withdrawing from them because of their corruption, I'm sorry, but I take these ideas very seriously because there is no reason to disbelieve that they should be taken seriously.
Ideas, of course, the flourishing of capitalism and the slaughterhouse of socialism and communism.
And fascism. So there's no reason to believe that these ideas should not be taken enormously seriously.
And so, basically, because you want me dead and because you advocate the murder of millions, I really can't hang out with you, then the ideas become more real to the people you say that to.
And that's very important.
And who's to say that they won't mull over that for the next year or two, or however long it takes, Give you a call and say, A, I really respect your stand.
I mean, a brave thing to do.
You really were refusing to participate with my false self, with my lying self, with my corrupt self.
You were refusing to participate with that because that's all you get to meet with these people.
If they're advocating your death, you're not touching anything real in them, right?
You're just dealing with their corrupt false self.
So the true self then has an ally in the outside world.
Their true self has an ally in the outside world.
Somebody has to say, I do not put up with corrupt and brutal and dishonest behavior.
Somebody has to say that.
In your life, of course, but even for their life, in their life.
Somebody has to say that.
And if you then say, look, I am no longer going to participate with you until you renounce the use of violence, at least against me.
We can still have conversations about the East Timorese, but at least you have to not want me dead anymore.
And you have to stop accusing me of genocidal preferences.
I mean, that's sort of a minimum, right?
Don't accuse me of genocide and don't want me killed.
To me, that would be sort of a bare minimum.
I mean, those are, as Dr.
Finnell puts it, those are deal breakers, right?
Those are deal breakers.
If you want a relationship with me, it's kind of like a deal breaker to want me dead.
I mean, I've got to put that out there because I'm not really sure what a relationship with somebody who wants you dead would look like other than complete degradation and self-humiliation and self-hatred.
So that would be to me sort of a bare minimum.
And secondly, you've got to not want millions of other people dead.
I mean, to me, that would be kind of important as well.
Like, if I consider myself a virtuous guy, and I certainly strive for it, it would be kind of a deal-breaker for me to hang with people, given that I'm into pacifism and not wanting people dead.
Then it would be kind of problematic for me to have relationships with people who want millions of other people dead.
And I think that would be sort of important.
I mean, that would be kind of like a deal-breaker if somebody says, yeah, I'm really into this group of people who have ultimate power to shoot whoever they want and have done so, you know, hundreds of millions of times over the last hundred years.
Those people are great with me.
Well, that to me seems like kind of a deal-breaker.
I'm not really sure that I would find anything redemptive about that person.
I think I would just curse them in the most moral way and go my merry way.
In the same way, and for the same reason, that if somebody I knew then confessed, you know, my family is a mafioso, so they're whacking people and killing people and so on, and I think that you should talk about how great the mafia is and so on, and if you don't, then I'm going to tell my dad, and he's going to get you killed.
He's going to shoot you.
Well, he'll start with your kneecaps, but he'll work his way up.
If you don't tell me right now that the mafia is the best thing ever and the most moral agent in society.
Well, would you just say, oh, haha, that's funny, let's go clubbing.
I mean, wouldn't that be kind of an evil thing to hear?
Agree with my opinions about a corrupt institution being virtuous, or I'm going to get you shot.
Gotta tell you, kind of a deal-breaker.
I mean, that's not even on the page as far as things that I would even remotely conceivably accept in any kind of relationship.
And do you know what's most frustrating?
That here I was saying that I was going to get to my room for review and now I'm two minutes from work.
One day I will be concise.
But that day, my friends, is not today.
So I hope that this has at least clarified where I stand.
This does need to be a conversation that has to happen a number of times.
And of course, if you can find some way for me to accept and hang with and exchange gifts with and show my preference for and sanction to those who want me killed and keep any kind of self-respect and happiness in my life and I think self-respect and happiness is sort of the point, and happiness is the point, and you can't get there without self-respect.
You have to be worthy of happiness if you're going to be receiving happiness.
So, if...
If you feel that there's some way to do this, I'm certainly open to talk about it.
I can't conceive of any way to do it, but I've been wrong before.
Oh, March the 12th, 1982.
A terrible, a black day.
I will remember it forever.
But, I mean, given that I'm wrong quite a bit, I think it's very important.
If you know a way to do it...
Or a methodology by which self-respect can be retained while approving those who want you dead, I would be very interested in hearing that.
I would be very curious to find how that could be justified, because to me that would be an astounding thing, and it would actually make Free Domain Radio sort of completely wrong.
I'd have to take it all down, reverse all my premises, and start again, which is fine.
It's only four months of my life.
I live a long time, so I have no problem doing that.
But it means that communism can work, that capitalism is not a better system.
It means lots of things that we kind of need to figure out.
So if there's a way...
Of getting self-respect and happiness while hanging around people who either accuse you of genocide or want you killed and approve of the use of violence themselves for people who disagree with the state and approve the state as they would the mafia.
If there's ways to make that work, I'm all ears.
I really am. Let me know.
Because, man, it would make my life easier at times, too.
But I just have never been able to figure that one out.
And once I got the idea, I've never been able to find a counter-argument.
So I am more than happy.
To listen to it.
So thank you so much for listening, as always.
And unless I get six million emails about this today, I will definitely get to my movie review this afternoon.
And if you really do value me telling you to get rid of all the corrupt people in your life, feel free to throw me some cash.
I think that would also be part of a virtuous action.
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