While Sean is taking some time off for the Labor Day weekend, this "Best of Sean Hannity" podcast brings us back to early August when Jay Sekulow and "America's Mayor" Rudy Giuliani filled in for Sean. Jay and Rudy interviewed Harry Hutchinson to discuss the impact of tariffs on countries like Turkey. The Sean Hannity Show is on weekdays from 3 pm to 6 pm ET on iHeartRadio and Hannity.com. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This is Jay Seculo.
I am sitting in for Sean, and also joining me today is going to be my good friend Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
You just heard from him.
You're going to hear from him some more.
But I'm going to tell you before we get back to Mayor Giuliani, and there's a lot of news going on, obviously, but there's one thing that I have a stake in, I will say, and that is, of course, I have a stake in most of the news these days.
I was making a joke the other day that sometimes you're making the news, sometimes you're in the news, and sometimes you're just talking about the news.
I will tell you, these days I am doing both, or all three.
I am making the news, talking about the news, and have been in the news.
Having said that, of course, not only am I counsel to the president of the United States, as Mayor Giuliani is, I am also the chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice.
And we have a case that is in the news.
In fact, right now, it is a lead story on Drudge.
And it's a case, an issue that we've been talking about a lot.
In fact, Sean has been talking about it as well.
And that is the case of Andrew Brunson.
He's an American Christian pastor.
He's been in Turkey for 23 years.
He was picked up after the coup in Turkey two years ago and was put in jail.
The charge against him was Christianization.
That is actually in the indictment.
We're going to talk about that because the lead right now on Drudge Report, and this is true, is Turkey's economy on the brink.
This could be the most expensive pastor in world history.
The billion-dollar pastor, in one sense.
I mean, it's hard to believe that Turkey is letting itself get to this point.
I mean, this is supposed to be a NATO ally after all, get to this point because they're so entrenched on keeping this pastor in Turkey.
Now, I will say some good news, and that he's been released to home confinement, so that certainly was better than being in a Turkish jail.
I am bringing in some of our experts at the American Center for Law and Justice to address this issue.
Jordan Sekulo is our executive director.
It's also my son.
Andy Iconomo is a senior counsel for the ACLJ and is very involved in the issues involving the Middle East and Turkey.
Harry Hutchinson is our director of public policy.
Jordan, let's go to the latest to start with you here from the standpoint of the pastor's incarceration.
We'll get into the economy in Turkey being impacted about this.
But why don't you give everybody the latest report on where the case is because it changes literally on a daily basis?
Right now, he's on house arrest.
Yes, that's a much better situation to be in as an individual.
You know, we've had these situations where people are coming right out of that prison environment back to reality and outside of it.
That can be tougher.
So he's, remember, this is his home, long-term home there.
So while he's confined, and so under house arrest, this is a familiar place.
That being said, it's still confined.
So he's still being detained by a NATO ally and by Turkey, by the government in this situation.
The case has not been dropped.
And I'd say that every day he's there now, the Turkish media, which is in these reports about the economy, it's nonstop.
We're not so used to it here.
It's become in the news more and more, so people are getting more familiar with Andrew Brunson's name.
But for two years, he has been battered around the Turkish press to the point where it is not safe for him to be on the streets anymore.
As someone who lived there for 23 years, that is the situation he is in.
So every moment he has to stay in Turkey, even with the security he's got, is dangerous.
Well, he's got 18 Turkish security guards around his house right now.
I mean, 18.
I mean, just think about that, protecting him from an environment that the Turkish government, Erdogan, created.
Now, again, I'm going to go to Andy Oconamo, who's the senior counsel.
He's been very involved in this case.
Andy, you speak a lot of languages.
You were able to translate the Turkish.
This pastor, the charge against him is actually, I mean, folks, this is the reality of what you're dealing with.
Everybody, of course, when they get arrested in these situations, they're a spy.
It's espionage.
They're a CIA agent.
That's the allegations.
But in this one, in addition to making, you know what the basis upon that was?
It's called Christianization.
Andy, that is the actual charge in the indictment.
Yes, that's exactly correct, Jay.
What they're charging this pastor with is a Christianization of the Turkish Republic or the attempt to Christianize the Turkish people.
And this isn't a ridiculous charge.
It is no crime.
The Turkish Constitution provides, at least publicly and for purposes of popular consumption, freedom of religion and worship.
But that's not the case for the minorities in Turkey.
I'm Greek.
I can tell you it's not the case for the Greek minorities in Turkey, and especially for the beleaguered ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople and Istanbul.
That is not the case.
And so what Pastor Brunson is being charged with is something that is not a crime, but has been concocted by the Erdogan regime, Erdogan being basically a dictator today in Turkey, and he is being charged with Christianization, a horrible thing to be charged with, something that is not, as I said, a penal offense in Turkey.
Let me go to Harry Hutchinson.
He's our director of policy at the American Center for Law and Justice.
Again, this is Jay Sekulama in for my great friend Sean Hannity.
They give him a day off.
Linda gave him a day off.
You do that often?
Only when I absolutely have to.
Yeah, see, there you go.
You know what I did, Jay?
What did you do?
I made him go to a wedding.
There you go.
Well, that's a good thing to be going to.
It's good to have celebrations.
So I'm glad he's having a good family time at a wedding.
That's great.
And I'm glad that I'm here also with my colleague, Rudy Giuliani.
We're going to get back into some of those news items, but I wanted to really cover this because, look, this is a case where this is an American being held captive.
Now, the president has been very aggressive about requesting and demanding.
I would say requesting is not the right word, demanding this pastor's release.
And he has put sanctions in place because of the way the Turkish government is acting.
Harry Hutchinson's our director of policy at the ACLJ.
He's also professor of law and economics.
And Harry, it is fair to say, Professor Hutchinson, that the sanctions that the president has put in place here are having a dramatic impact on the Turkish economy.
In fact, on the Drudge Report, it says Turkey on an economic brink.
Jay, you are absolutely correct.
Turkey is edging closer and closer to a full-blown financial meltdown as President Trump has authorized a doubling of some tariffs on Turkish products.
The Turkish currency plunged by 17% today, reaching another record low as stocks slid by as much as 9%.
Turkey is gripped by an economic contagion.
In part, this is fueled by inflation and foreign debt.
Most investment analysts are urging their clients to pull their assets out of Turkey immediately as Turkey faces runaway inflation and unrestrained foreign debt.
As the Turkish lira continues to fall in value, the value of foreign-denominated debt rises, placing even more pressure on the Turkish government.
You know, you look at the situation and you try to say to yourself, why in the world would Turkey suffer, put themselves in this kind of situation, the economic suffering that they're going through over this?
And I'm going to go right back to Jordan Sekil on this.
You look at the situation, as Harry just said, I mean, they're doing this for what?
For a pastor to be kept in jail for a false charge?
What we're seeing is a Turkish strongman who is not acting rationally anymore.
And we've talked about how he has embraced Islamic politics.
And so blending those two and kind of towed this line between somewhat radical, but still ISIS is an enemy.
But then what's his statement on this ultimately about the fall of the economy?
It's not economic or financial.
It's invoking religion.
So he says, quote, if they have their dollars, we have our people and our God.
Now, I point out two things.
One, in our country, we have our national motto, In God We Trust, in our Pledge of Allegiance, we have one nation under God.
So I don't think, you know, these statements alone, but we know what he's really saying there in Turkey.
He is invoking a new kind of politics in Turkey.
He's been doing it over years.
And now, even when it comes to finances, which ultimately these strong men are usually, that's their concern.
But we've also talked about the idea that the new allies he's tried to make are never very good allies.
The Russians, they're trying to work with Iran.
They don't bail you out if they've got nothing in return.
You know, in Syria, the Russians have a warm water base.
As long as they can keep that, that's worthwhile for them to keep fighting.
In Turkey, if the economy starts falling apart, they're not going to come in and save Erdogan, who's still, by the way, government is a member of NATO, which the Russians can't stand.
Yeah, this is the irony of all of this, of course, is the Turks and the Russians have an ongoing feud.
They're a NATO ally of the United States within the NATO partnership, and they're certainly not acting like it.
It's become an Islamic regime.
That's what it is.
I mean, it's where it's gone, unfortunately.
This is not the Turkey and the Economo of Ataturk.
No, this is not the Turkey of Ataturk, Jay.
These men are simply Islamists wearing suits, coats, and ties.
Ataturk wore a suit coat and a tie, but he tried to bring Turkey into the West and into the then 20th century.
So Erdogan needs to wake up.
He needs to realize that he may have God, but it's a good idea to get a local financial advisor, too.
Yeah, and I don't think it's the God that we're used to, and he certainly could use a financial advisor.
So, Harry, let me ask you this.
You're a professor of law and economics.
What in the, why would they put themselves in this situation over this pastor?
Well, I think for political, ideological, and religious reasons.
President Erdogan suffers, in my opinion, from illusions of grandeur.
But President Trump is responding with maximum pressure, maximum economic pressure.
Erdogan has responded with defiance.
Meanwhile, his country and its people are suffering massively.
This will lead, in my opinion, ultimately to a climb down by the Turkish leader.
I think you're right, Jordan, really quickly here, as we get ready to go to a break in a minute, and this is important.
We've handled these cases before with the Sudanese.
We've handled them with the Iranians.
You would have never thought that Turkey would be this difficult.
You know, I mean, President Erdogan built himself palaces while the economy was on an upswing.
You would think that's what he actually cared about.
I mean, honestly, I mean, this strongman kind of leader would be more important to protect his palace.
At this point, though, you see he's embracing a radical Islamic message.
We've kept discussing this.
How far is he going to go with this angle of using Islam to his political purposes?
But I'll tell you, someone's been there in Turkey.
I don't think that sells to enough people there to keep him in power.
And these guys, as we can see, they may have a lot of power.
They may pull out these coups, these phony coups, whatever is happening there.
But ultimately, if the economy falls the way it's falling and it continues to fall, and with President Trump's announcement today on the tariffs, they don't survive.
And I mean, literally, they do not survive these kinds of situations.
They either end up in prison like Mohamed Morsi in Egypt or worse.
Yeah, and let me tell you this, folks.
I spoke with the president as recently as yesterday on Pastor Brunson's case.
And the president is serious.
They're going to return Andrew Brunson.
That's what needs to happen here.
It has to happen here.
So we'll get more involved in that.
We'll keep you posting.
And by the way, I want to thank Sean because he's been covering this case for Pastor Brunson.
It's hard to break into the news on these kind of cases when everything else is going on.
But the folks here at Sean Hannity's broadcast have done that.
We appreciate it.
Hey, we're taking a break.
When we come back, we're going to have more with my friend Rudy Giuliani.
We're going to talk about some of the other big news of the day.
There's other news in the day today, by the way, in case you're new to this.
And anyways, I'm Jay Seculo.
I'm Chief Counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice.
I'm also one of the president's lawyers, and I'm going to be taking calls also with Rudy Giuliani.
By the way, if you want to talk to us, it's 800-941-7326.
That's 1-800-941-7326, or 800-941-Sean.
That's a pretty easy way to do it.
Let me tell you this.
We're going to come back with a lot more, so stay tuned.
We'll be back with more in just a moment.
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Welcome back to the Sean Hannity's John.
I'm Jay Seculo.
I'm getting to be the host today with my friend Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
But we're talking about a major case that we're involved in at the American Center for Law and Justice involving Pastor Andrew Brunson.
We've got in our studio, as I say ours, because I have a broadcast too that airs, and that is Jordan Seculo, the executive director of the American Center for Law and Justice, Professor Harry Hutchison, a professor of law and economics, and our director of policy and senior counsel to the ACLJ.
And that is Dr. Andrew O'Connell.
Let me go right to Jordan here.
We're talking about Pastor Andrew Brunson on home arrest right now, which is better than jail, but not quite home yet.
I'm going to ask one question.
I want everybody to give me your thoughts.
I'm going to start with Jordan.
What do you expect, with the economic pressure on Turkey now, what do you expect to happen?
Well, we know that Turkey is tying directly to President Trump's tweet, which he did not do in the tweet announcing the tariffs, but they are in the media and through the government directly to Pastor Andrew Brunson.
As you said earlier, the most expensive pastor in history to an economy falling apart.
And is that going to, again, make it with the people of Turkey?
They are not that radicalized overall.
And I think that they may have been okay with a strong man talking Turkish nationalism, but his full embrace of almost Islamic, this kind of modern Islamic radicalism, I would call it, is not, it just doesn't sell to the people.
And I think he's on the brink.
He's the one on the brink of a real disaster for himself.
So let me ask this to you, Andy.
Your sense, you've been to Turkey a lot.
You know the region.
You know the area.
What do you think the next thing is here?
I think Erdogan is going to have to climb down.
I mean, I've been to Istanbul several times.
It's a Western city, essentially, a city of 17 million people.
The interior of Turkey is very different.
Ancient Cappadocian, medieval Cappadocia, the heart of the old Byzantine Empire is different.
But the reality is that people are hungry both in Istanbul and people are hungry in the middle part of Turkey, which means that they're not going to tolerate the inflation.
They're not going to tolerate the economic hardships.
And Erdogan is going to have to climb down, but you're going to have to give him some face-saving device.
So, Harry, from an economic standpoint, the impact on the Lyra, the impact on the economy already has been significant.
What do you think happens next?
Well, I think, Jay, you're absolutely correct.
The economy is cratering.
The Lyra is plunging.
Investors are fleeing.
And sanctions and tariffs are working.
So I think there will indeed be a climb down by the Turkish president, despite his current defiance.
Ultimately, he will have to answer to his people, and his people are hurting immensely.
I think that's the reality.
I appreciate everybody's opinions on that.
Let me, again, say a huge thank you to Sean and the whole team here at the Sean Hannity show for covering this story.
And I think, look, I think we're going to get this pastor home to the United States very, very soon.
I can't give you a date.
I know I'm not good at predicting dates, especially in these kind of cases.
You can't because there's so many ups and downs.
But I still think with all this going on, at the end of the day, we're going to get there, which is going to take, it may take a week, it may take a month, but we're going to get there.
Anyways, we've got a lot more to discuss.
We're going to be taking calls as well at 1-800-941-7326.
That's 800-941-Sean.
My co-host will be back with me in just moments.
That is Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who's also my co-counsel, representing the President of the United States.
We have some news we'll talk about there.
You may have heard some things, a couple of things, just a few things.
So we'll get to those when we come back from the break.
Stay tuned.
Hey, welcome back to the Sean Hannity program, everybody.
I'm Jay Seculo, co-hosting with my good friend, the former mayor of the great city of New York, Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
But for today's purposes, more importantly, I will say, former U.S. attorney, former senior member of the United States Department of Justice, and my colleague and co-counsel in a fairly important case, a very important case, that's going on right now.
And he is our co-host today, and we're both co-hosting for Sean.
Mayor, I want to talk to you about an issue that you and I are dealing with.
And we'll start this and let you pontificate some here because I think this is important.
You and I have handled a lot of media over the last couple of days on the issue of what everybody wants to talk about.
And by the way, if you want to talk about it, you can call us at 800-941-7326 or 800-941-Sean.
And that is the issue of a presidential interview.
And there's a lot of issues that go into that, Rudy, and a lot of discussion that takes place and a lot of legal analysis.
Let's kind of get everybody up to speed on where we are.
So there are two things to have to deal with, as you know, Jay, because we deal with it every day.
One is just the normal representation of a person who is in some way under investigation, although they're very fudgy about what it's about.
So far, no crime suggested.
And he has rights, and they have to be protected.
Second, he's the president of the United States.
So he has prerogatives that have to be protected, not just for him, but for future presidents.
So it's very, very complicated.
And we also have a client who wants to be heard.
He has felt from the very beginning, and he's right, he's done nothing wrong, that he should be able to tell his story, and they should believe him.
On the other hand, he also knows that he doesn't exactly have an unbiased group of people.
They have indicated to us, even in our discussions, a preference for Comey, a preference for some of these other people.
The whole root of the investigation is corrupt.
Going back to the dossier and struck people who hate him, a counterintelligence investigation that I can't figure out how they ever did it.
Faisal wires that somebody should get prosecuted for perjury in getting them.
All of that taints the investigation.
We have a lot to consider.
You know, I said from the outset that the corruption started this investigation, actually.
If you look at just the beginning of the investigation, the inception of the investigation, the corruption ran very deep, and then it continued to permeate.
And if you start, just go through what I call the parade of horribles.
I mean, just look at the issues.
You and I keep calling this an irregular investigation.
Well, and that's being kind, actually.
That's being courteous.
Because look at the irregularity.
It starts with the dossier that even James Comey admits is salacious and unverified.
We now find out that the author of that was Christopher Steele, who just happened to be hired by Fusion GPS, who happened to be hired by the Clinton campaign, who was working with Bruce Orr, the number four at the United States Department of Justice wife, Nellie Orr.
She was working for Fusion GPS and just happened to be working on the putting together the dossier.
Now, okay, you could not make that up, except then it gets better.
And that is you have the lead investigator and the conversations he had with Lisa Page, and you got the whole Strzok Page incident.
Then you got the insurance policy with Andy McCain.
We must get in what's the insurance policy.
Now, a lot of the people that were at the FBI are now gone that were involved in this.
But the truth is that Peter Strzok, the agent, Rudy, was the lead investigator for the special counsel's office.
And I keep talking about what happened to that evidence that they gathered, even though he was, you know, they'll say, well, he was subsequently fired.
True, but what happened to that evidence that he gathered during that year and a half he was on the investigation?
Because he predates the actual Mueller appointment.
And we talk about in the law the fruit of the poisonous tree.
But it's serious.
You can't even, the irregularities here are so in-depth.
It's really hard to put your head around it.
I would describe this as an investigation born in corruption.
A corrupt dossier that is crying out for a real investigation.
If you're talking about collusion to effect an investigation, paying a foreigner, as Hillary did, to produce a false dossier on Donald Trump is so far the biggest crime that's been committed with regard to the election.
That is provable.
And then that dossier is used as the basis for the wiretaps, the Pfizer wires.
And then when they know it's false, they don't correct it.
They go back to the judge and they keep repeating it.
Now, some judge has got to be going out of his mind, even worse than Judge Ellis, because that judge was made a fool of.
And the Pfizer process was completely made a mockery of by this false dossier.
So it spawns an investigation.
The investigation produces no evidence of anything involving President Trump and Russians.
And somehow, Comey comes along and makes it into a criminal investigation.
And now we know that the criminal investigation itself, of course, we also have to put in there that James Comey said that he created this memo after his meeting with the president, leaked it to the press for the sole appointment of getting a special counsel, which was miraculously appointed.
Now, could you imagine, and you were a U.S. attorney, Rudy, and you were also a high-ranking Justice Department official.
I worked for Treasury at the beginning of my legal career.
Could you imagine if an IRS agent or an FBI agent were to release their 302 form to the press, what would happen to those agents?
Well, those who have been indicted and prosecuted and convicted.
It's a crime to do it.
And in this particular case, it wasn't accidental.
This was a planned, completely thought-out, corrupt scheme on the part of Comey.
So it didn't come from him.
It came from this professor.
I mean, imagine the skullduggery of this man.
And then he wants us to believe that the memo is accurate about the Flynn conversation.
He wants us to believe that at the time of the Flynn conversation, he felt that he was being obstructed.
However, he never told anybody about it.
He never reported it.
If he didn't report it, it's misprison of a felony because as a FBI director, he had to report it.
He testifies under oath after it, and before he releases the memo, that he had not been obstructed in any way.
You can have Jarrett on later, Greg Jarrett.
He says, it's not happened in my experience under oath.
Right.
He's now contradicting that.
In other words, he lied under oath.
So they want this guy to be the arbiter of truth, and they're not investigating him for his crimes?
I mean, this is really corrupt.
Now, supposedly there's an office.
Yeah, well, there's the Inspector General's report that is supposedly coming involving James Comey.
We haven't seen it yet.
And I'm hearing, and you're hearing the same things we're hearing, September, October.
So that may come out.
We'll see.
The last one was pretty tough on Andrew McCabe.
Interestingly, he's no longer with the Department of Justice.
James Comey's no longer with the Department of Justice.
Rabicki's no longer with the Department of Justice.
So Comey wants us to believe.
Yeah, I mean, you get that.
There's been quite a lit, Lisa Page, all gone.
Yeah.
Comey wants us to believe that Trump had this conversation with him about Flynn, that he felt that it was an obstruction of justice, a serious federal felony, but he never reported it, never told McCabe about it, because McCabe also testified that there was no obstruction, as he did, and that he testified falsely under oath.
I mean, he can't be obstructed three months later.
He can't remember the conversation three months later and say, oh, my God, he tried to obstruct me.
I mean, this is so phony.
If it weren't for the fact that the president has these CNN and MSNBC and all these people that are just dying to interpret everything against him, people would be demanding an investigation of Comey.
You know, it's interesting because if you look at this guy we're going to talk with, you mentioned Greg Jarrett, our friend Greg Jarrett's got a great book out, by the way, The Russian Hoax.
Everybody needs to be reading it.
It's a great, great book.
I'm underlining it.
I bet you are.
And I'll report it.
And I got an early copy.
So we all have.
Let me say that we're going to get into that with Greg.
I want to talk about a lot of that because it's important.
But, you know, people need to understand also that we are trying to handle, and you understand this, you've got competing interests when you talk about an interview.
So the question today is the interview of the president.
Will the president submit to an interview?
And I want to be very clear on this.
We have raised and have raised this really since the beginning of my representation, which is going back over a year now, that there are significant Article II issues.
I mean, really significant Article II issues.
Do you think a U.S. attorney, for instance, should be able to subpoena a president of the United States to discuss the reason why he made a policy move or a decision to fire a subordinate?
And if that's the case, well, then why couldn't every U.S. attorney in every district who has a beef with a particular president start issuing subpoenas and that the president instead of running the government ends up responding to subpoenas?
That's not the way it's supposed to be.
Our founders knew that, and that's why they have a political process in there.
It's not a legal process.
There's not going to be a trial here.
But people have to understand that we have to go through a real process of analysis in coming to these conclusions, Rudy, about what our recommendation is regarding an interview.
Obviously, when the special counsel sent us the last proposal, obviously we didn't accept it.
So we counter.
We're not going to get into the contents of that counter.
That wouldn't be appropriate.
But there's a lot of factors that go into this.
There are a lot of factors that go into it, and not the least of which is you have to evaluate the good faith of the people who are seeking to question him.
Do you really have a chance of persuading them?
Or have they made up their minds already and they're just trying to set him up?
A great example, we talk about Flint, is Flint.
The President of the United States says he never had that conversation with Comey.
Comey says that he did.
You know, both of us would be perfectly comfortable if he had had the conversation.
Right.
He said nothing wrong.
He didn't say you must drop the case, which you could do.
He said, you should think about it.
You should give him a break, which many people have said to me when I was a prosecutor.
We know Comey didn't think of it as obstruction because he would have reported it.
So we'd have a very good defense on the facts.
But the fact is, the president insists, I never had that conversation.
So now we put him in front of Mueller.
Mueller asked him that question.
He says, no, I didn't have the conversation.
And then they say, oh, we believe the liar Comey.
Now, here we're almost at a disadvantage because there's no trial.
They'd never charge him in an indictment with it because Comey couldn't withstand cross-examination.
Absolutely correct.
He gave a prior statement under oath contrary to that.
All right, we're going to be back with a lot more.
