News Roundup: Jeffrey Epstein and the MAGA Civil War; Mehdi Hasan and Jubilee
It's all in the title, folks. Extra content warnings on this one. Episode Notes: Rebecca Watson on Mehdi Hasan and Jubilee https://youtu.be/4px0MUlTvBk?si=ykE-CTKTDKWTUWHQ The Bulwark interview with Medhi Hasan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhkzEgWaNSI&pp=ygUOYnVsd2FyayBtZWRoaSA%3D Published as we were recording and saying how much we wanted to know who else was in the birthday book… https://www.wsj.com/us-news/jeffrey-epstein-birthday-album-included-letters-from-bill-clinton-leon-black-a7cd8cb1?st=pc73P3&reflink=article_copyURL_share Jack forgot to mention this excellent article: Who Needs the Epstein Files? Trump’s Modeling Agency Was a Documented Trafficking Operation: Court documents, victim testimony, and immigration records reveal how Trump Model Management systematically exploited teenage girls - while everyone chases phantom client lists. By RachelAndTheCity https://rachelandthecity.substack.com/p/who-needs-the-epstein-files-trumps Kyle Kulinski video providing a quick digest of old and new stories and allegations implicating Trump and Epstein in abuses https://youtu.be/BqER8naYogA?si=atT3BHKfTK34Tnn8 https://bsky.app/profile/realbbfan.bsky.social/post/3luc4tto4mo2e Forbes, 2020: Trump’s Business Partners Allegedly Involved In Human Trafficking, Mafia Matters, Probable Money Laundering https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2020/08/20/trumps-business-partners-allegedly-involved-in-human-trafficking-mafia-matters-probable-money-laundering/ Daily Kos, 2016: "We All Knew About the Trafficking"-The Untold Story of Trump Model Management (Part 1) https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/6/1578544/-The-Untold-Story-of-Trump-Model-Management-A-Daily-Kos-Exclusive-Part-1 Mother Jones, 2016: Senator Calls for Homeland Security to Investigate Trump’s Model Agency - “I am extremely concerned by the claims levied against Trump Model Management.” https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/trump-models-illegal-immigration-investigation-barbara-boxer-letter/ Watchdog Report, 2017: Trump Model Management Investigated For Violating Teenagers, Immigration Laws and Labor Laws https://trumpwatchdogs.com/2017/07/24/trump-model-management-investigated-for-violating-teenagers-and-immigration-laws/ We Need to Talk About Pedocon Theory: The connection between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein is no accident, but reveals a deep logic at the heart of reactionary politics. By Samantha Hancox-Li at Liberal Currents https://www.liberalcurrents.com/we-need-to-talk-about-pedocon-theory/ Show Notes: Daniel's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/danielharper/posts Jack's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4196618&fan_landing=true IDSG Twitter: https://twitter.com/idsgpod Daniel's Twitter: @danieleharper Jack's (Locked) Twitter: @_Jack_Graham_ Jack's Bluesky: @timescarcass.bsky.social Daniel's Bluesky: @danielharper.bsky.social IDSG on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-dont-speak-german/id1449848509?ls=1
yes oh shit I mean the You could not look more damning if you tried.
Like that is.
We'll read it.
We'll read it.
Dear God.
Yeah.
That is, that is the most damning fucking thing.
Anyway, yeah.
All right.
Let's get started.
Welcome back to another IDSG news brief.
News not brief, news long.
Could be any amount of time.
You never know.
Daniel, are you here?
I'm here.
That's good.
That's good.
It helps when there's two of us.
Yes.
And I'm not just talking to myself.
So it's a news brief episode.
And yeah, the news.
The two biggest stories that are apparently existing in the world right now.
The only two things anybody has any ability to talk about are what we're going to be talking about today.
Yeah, at least on social media anyway.
Yes, yes.
Before we get into those, though, we do have a little...
Little house cleaning.
We fucked up a bit.
We fucked up a bit.
I think it's fair to say.
But yeah.
Just a little.
Yeah.
In the last episode, there was a passing moment towards the end where we talked about the ADL, the Anti-Defamation League.
And we sounded, I think particularly me, sounded as if we were endorsing, well, that's too defensive.
I was too nice to the ADL.
Okay.
And, you know, I stand by the basic point, which is that if you go to a page that's an ADL page and you look for like, you know, basic information on right-wing memes and tropes and things like that, you're likely to get good information, reliable information.
But I was too nice to the organization in the way I phrased that.
And I was pulled up by several people, including our friend Ina, who wrote this to me on Blue Sky.
I'll just quickly read what she wrote to me.
She was very nice.
One small disagreement I had was that IMO ADL is not okay outside of Israel either.
They're not only turning into a Trumpian anti-DEI org, but they've also got a long history of surveilling POC and being deeply problematic.
The more I learn about them, the more horrified I am.
That's Ina.
And I completely co-sign that.
So 100%.
100%.
If I sounded, which I did, too nice about the ADL last time, then I was wrong and I'm sorry.
Things have gotten significantly worse under their current leadership.
Greenblood is just a monster.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
But I think inhuman Israel propaganda machine.
And particularly as close as he's gotten to Trump and like, you know, like, oh no, Donald Trump isn't anti-Semitic for saying, you know, an anti-Semitic slur.
Of course not.
You know, he's my buddy.
He's, he's, he's giving me all these great weapons I'm going to use to bomb, to bomb Gaza and destroy and commit genocide.
That's, that's great.
Woohoo.
You know, no, not so much.
Sorry, I'm conflating Greenblatt with Netanyahu a bit there, but you know what I mean?
The propaganda wing is kind of the same.
There is a, you know, they are relentlessly pro-Israel and the, and pro the, and it's not like they support the genocide so much as like, like I listen to their podcast.
I listen to their podcast the way I listen to the daily show at this point as a learning tool.
You know, I listen to it to understand what their perspective is.
And today there was one I just didn't, I deleted.
I was like, it's 30 minutes long.
I'm not even going to like, I couldn't even deal with it today.
But yeah, no, that was something we really should not have, you know, co-signed quite so quickly on the, on the fact that there is sometimes decent information there because it is truly a horrible organization.
And I would not work for them for $5 million a year.
It's just not going to happen.
Yeah.
Anyway.
No.
Yeah.
A horrible organization, even outside the question of their covering for Israel, which is, which is, you know, that's the amendation to what I said last time that I wanted to make.
Okay.
Absolutely.
So that being done, let's move on to covering a couple of news stories, which, as you say, if you believe YouTube and TikTok and social media generally are the only things happening on the planet at the moment.
The only things that are important on the planet is, you know, a YouTube show with some edgy guests and, you know, Donald Trump, what Donald Trump did with his penis 20 years ago.
Those are the only two interesting stories anywhere.
Yeah, yeah.
So the first one is the Mehdi Hassan going on the show, what's it called, Surrounded or Outnumbered or something?
So the YouTube channel is Jubilee and they have Jubilee, a number of like kind of sub-shows in that.
And the one that's really kind of popped off in the last year or so is this show Surrounded.
And the idea is that you have like one, you know, one right-winger or like, you know, one atheist is surrounded by, or one religious person is surrounded by a bunch of atheists, like that sort of thing.
And then they all like, it's, it's like, it's like, you know, it's like internet blood sports, but we're doing it in a warehouse.
You know, it's just, you know, like, you know, it's very, you know, there's a lot of heat and no light.
Let's put it that way.
Sam Cedar kind of went on this a couple of months ago and did pretty well for himself and kind of reached similar conclusions that Media San apparently did.
So did you watch the episode?
Did you watch the YouTube show?
I did not.
I don't, I find it very hard to watch stuff like that.
I hate debate shows.
I just hate debates, political debates generally.
So I do not watch stuff like that, but I've seen a lot of clips because, you know, I watched.
I watched the whole thing and almost said to you, okay, we might have to do this as an episode.
Like, you know.
Yeah, there was a moment where we nearly did that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, and then I was, and then I like, I was, I was, you know, basically the way I get through that is A, I watched it at 2x speed.
B, I usually have a little bit of alcohol next to me and that helps me get through these things.
Oh, yeah, that is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, just, you know, a beer or two, you know, or five.
No, not five, but you know what I mean.
You know, you know, it's only, it's only an hour, 40 minutes long.
So at 2x speed, it's like 45 minutes.
And it's like, okay, I could get through this.
It's fine.
But boy, honestly, the clips don't even don't even show the worst of it.
Like, it's, it's bad.
Yeah, no, it's real bad.
I suggested, hey, let's talk about this.
And then like the next morning, I was like, no, actually, that's a bad idea to do a full episode because A, by that point, even the next morning, like 500,000 People had already kind of given their takes on it.
And it was like, okay, by the time we get to this, it's going to be like, you know, old, old, old news, which it kind of is already because everybody's like, kind of had their take.
But I have, I have some takes on it.
And I think you do as well.
So I wanted you to kind of go first, if you don't mind.
Okay.
Well, the thing that, I mean, I didn't, it was one of those things where it came up and I kind of, you know, things come up, don't they?
And you kind of think, oh, yeah, sure, whatever.
And, but I watch a lot of the shows that comment on stuff like this.
I watch the majority report pretty regularly.
I would say it's probably the political show on YouTube that I follow most consistently.
I'm also, I also tend to watch stuff like Kyle Kalinsky, Secular Talk, who's been getting better and better in recent years.
But yeah, they don't.
But it's funny.
I don't watch those shows because I'd rather just come to my own conclusions most of the time.
You've got a tougher gut than me.
I kind of need a filter between me and these fucking people.
I am that filter for you.
Don't you understand?
I am the filter.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's what makes the show works.
Holy shit.
That's the basis of our entire program that we've been doing.
I'm the fascism liver of our two-man organism, you know?
Oh, dear.
You do not want to be any sort of liver for me because traditionally I do not treat livers very well at all.
No.
Yeah.
So I assimilated it through clips that I saw on things like that, majority report, et cetera.
I mean, I saw the clips of this guy, Connor.
Sure.
And Mehdi Hassan, basic, Mehdi Hassan is so good at this.
He is excellent.
He is so like, I disagree with Medi Hassan about a lot of things.
I mean, he is a progressive.
He is much more of a liberal than I am, but he is excellent at this stuff.
And I actually watch some of his content, some of his original content voluntarily.
I actually kind of like a lot of the things he does.
Yeah, I watch the Teo pretty regularly as well.
Sure.
I tend to like Mehdi Hassan in the same way that I tend to like Sam Seda.
You know, plenty of areas of disagreement, but on the whole, I will usually sort of mostly agree.
Yeah.
So the thing that got me was the moment when, as I say, Mehdi Hassan effortlessly prods this guy, Connor.
And it's really, it's like watching, it's like watching a small rodent being batted around by a gigantic cat.
Mehdi Hassan talking to this Connor guy, he effortlessly prods him into admitting that he's a fascist on air, whereupon he bursts into this great big gale of childish, excited, terrified, anti-daring giggles and titters.
And Mehdi Hassan looks around the room and he's counting the people that are applauding.
The guy saying, yes, I'm a fascist.
And he's saying, yes, I'm just taking the measure of the room.
And it's pretty clear to me at that moment that Mehdi Hassan is realizing that he's kind of been soft sandbagged.
Oh, yeah.
You know, I'm not making excuses for him, but it's pretty clear to me that he didn't think he was going there to debate fascists.
He thought he was going there to debate right-wing Republicans or MAGA types.
And there is, you know, they're increasingly thin, but there is a distinction, certainly from the point of view of somebody like this.
Is this something I want to get into?
This is something I want to get into, but continue.
But yeah.
Well, I think this demonstrates the fact that that distinction has actually disappeared, or at least partly disappeared.
But the moment that Medi Hassan realizes what's going on, he says, well, I'm not debating you anymore because I don't debate fascists.
And what starts happening is that Medihastan starts interviewing this guy.
He switches from debating him to interviewing him.
And he just drags it out of him piece by piece, watching it being reported upon by other channels and reading about it.
It's, you know, this guy, Connor, this is somebody who goes by Pine Sap online.
Yes.
He's a groiper.
He's a groiper influencer.
Yeah, he's like a low-level groiper guy.
He's not even Nick Flintes' lieutenant.
He's like Nick Flintes' Lieutenant's Lieutenant Lieutenant.
He's on the bottom rung, basically.
And he's like, now he's made a name for himself.
I'm sure he will get a very nice position of this moving forward.
Yeah, this will be, I mean, you know, he lost his job as a result of this going out because Meddy Hassan is telling him as it's happening.
You realize you're saying this on camera, right?
He says that to a couple of people.
You know, you're saying this on camera, right?
This is going out to YouTube.
Like millions of people will see this, right?
You know?
Yeah.
Currently, that video has 7,087,642 views, just by the way.
Yeah.
So there was another Groiper there, apparently a guy called Kai Schwimmer or Kai Schwemmer.
But yeah, several, I mean, one guy, you know, they're talking about the fact that Mehdi Hassan is an immigrant and the guy says to him, well, get out of my country then.
And, you know, pretty vile stuff like that.
But yeah, I mean, oh, the other thing is the amount of Yarvin rhetoric I heard in there.
I heard lots of stuff that's coming straight from Curtis Yarvin.
And one of the things that the Connor Pinesap guy brings up is Carl Schmidt, the friend-enemy distinction, which we have covered on this show.
These groiper types mouthing this little bit of Carl Schmidt that they've heard.
So I'm going to step back a second and I'm going to like, as I've been learning languages, and one of the things that they say when you're learning languages is that you do immersive input.
You know, you do like you listen to, like you listen to your target language for hours and hours and hours a day just to let the sounds of it wash over you.
And you won't understand it at first.
The idea is that like, you should understand like 90% of it.
And as you get better at it, you're going to listen to harder and harder material.
So that's, that's one of the like kind of currently enraged things, you know, invoke things that they do that they say to learn a language.
Well, we accidentally titled this podcast, I don't speak German, back in 2019.
Accidentally titled.
Well, I mean, the irony is that like the way that you recommend to learn languages is exactly what I did to learn this stuff.
Yeah, you immersed yourself in it.
I speak fascism.
That was kind of the idea of the title.
Yeah.
I mean, no, it wasn't accidental, but it was just the like the realization that like the way they actually recommend you learn languages is the way I did this unknowingly, you know, like, and it was just very funny.
But, and this is where, this is where like I, this is where, again, I'm being a little bit broad here.
What I realized is that because I learned a particular dialect of fascism, I learned the alt-right, you know, of 2017, 2018, 2019.
I learned Richard Spencer.
I learned the Daily Show.
I learned all that.
I know that dialect very, very well.
And so that gives me insight into the other dialects.
But now I'm like spending all my time with like Charlie Kirk and Megan Kelly and Jack Pesobiac and those guys.
And those are a very different like style.
I mean, you know, I'm getting, I can still understand them, but like it's a very different kind of thing.
And what I hear from these individual from these is that you've got like the Catholic integralist guy.
That's the Connor guy, you know, who's quoting Karl Schmidt, who's like, you know, I'm very Catholic, as long as the Catholic Church is in charge, et cetera.
And then you have more people who are more, you know, deliberately alt-right.
You have people who are just openly anti-Semitic and they want to ally with the supposed the Muslim man.
I mean, Mediasan is Muslim, but you know, the idea is that, well, you're going to be anti-Semitic like us.
We can make you anti-Semitic by, you know, they're just anti-Israel.
And, you know, they're anti-Israel because they're anti-Semitic, not anti-Israel because the way you are anti-Israel because it's a genocidal, you know, settler colonial state.
So there are lots of different varieties.
One of the people who was on this surrounded was also on the Sam Cedar surrounded.
These are not just random nobodies.
Now, I think a lot of the Jubilee stuff are.
They just kind of find random people to have conversations.
This is not that.
They are actively putting out casting calls for internet fascists to come and debate people.
This is, I mean, Rebecca Watson just put out a video.
I think she said she was going to make it public, but I'm on a Patreon.
So I saw it.
I saw it now, but it should be out by the time this podcast goes out.
So I'll link it.
And she just absolutely savages Jubilee.
It's like, I don't blame Betty Assan for this.
This is the question of whether you should, whether Betty Assange should like debate these people is kind of open.
It's kind of a 50-50 for Watson.
And, you know, I'm kind of, I'm more on the 60% no side, but I get that there's an argument there.
But Jubilee is absolutely platforming fascists.
There is, you know, this is not.
Yes.
They have links to their social media handles in the YouTube thing.
Like this is, this is, this is, oh yeah, yeah, no, they totally do this.
This is unconscionable at this point.
You know, they don't do this because they don't know.
They do this because they do know.
And that's just, you know, they are literally platforming fascists at this point, deliberately.
There's no way around it.
Look, if you work, there's no interpretation I could have that that is not true.
If you work for Jubilee or if you've worked inside, if you've been inside of it and you want to come on the show and talk to me about this, I would be happy to eat my words on this.
I don't know how you have, how you get this mix of people with giving their like handles for everything in the show notes, in the, in the YouTube video, where people are getting like internet famous off of a two-minute clip where they get told off by Media Hassan and not and not know what the fuck you're doing.
You're a professional media organization.
There's no way you don't know what you're doing.
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree.
You do not and you should not platform fascists.
And that is absolutely what they're doing.
I agree.
As you say, the question of whether Sam Cedar or Medi Hassan should go on somebody else's show and debate them is kind of a bit more open.
There's a bit more wiggle room there.
I do, like you, I tend very much towards saying that they should not, that you just shouldn't debate these people because you dignify them, you legitimize them just by definition.
The thing is that both Sam Cedar and Media Hassan are like excellent debaters, though.
Like they are skilled media professionals of their own and absolutely clown these guys.
So I wouldn't, I shouldn't do it because I would, I would be, I would be surrender.
I would be overwhelmed, even though I speak their language, even though I could bring them.
I'm not Media Assan and I'm not Sam Cedar.
So I think there is a justification for these two men and people of that like level of talent and skill and experience to be able to do it.
But that doesn't mean any old nobody should just like go in and try to debate these guys.
Yeah.
But this is the old question, isn't it?
Does it really matter if you win the debate?
Haven't they just won by being there?
You know, this is this is one of the this is one of the bases of the no platform theory, which is that it really ultimately doesn't matter if you wipe the floor with them in the debate.
They've kind of just won simply by being there, being on the platform.
And there's going to be a significant number of people who watch that.
And despite the fact that by any reasonable judgment, they saw these people getting absolutely steamrolled by Mehdi Hassan, they're still going to hear a fascist worldview resonating with them, being expressed in an apparently legitimate media environment.
That's very dangerous.
And I've seen people defending it on the grounds that, well, we need to know what these people think.
And I have to say that as somebody who's been co-hosting...
I do know what these people think.
Yeah.
As somebody who's been co-hosting with you and editing and producing and releasing an anti-fascist podcast for more than six years now, which has been telling people what these people say and what they think without ever single, ever platforming a single one of them.
Yeah, I don't find that argument particularly impressive.
Yes.
I mean, back in the day, I did have some fascists who are like, hey, I'll come on and let's have a conversation.
Nope, not happening.
Not on my show.
Fuck off.
Fuck off.
Yep.
I was a little more polite than that because I was, you know, like I was trying, you know, like, I don't want to give them the excuse to, you know, put it out on all that shit.
But it was like, yeah, no, no, thank you.
And that's, that's why the best bit in that show was Meddy saying, look, we're not debating anymore because you, you're a fascist.
You admitted you're a fascist and I don't debate fascists.
I'll interview.
You're, you're a fascist and you're not like, you don't believe in democracy.
You believe in autocracy as long as your guy gets in charge.
And therefore, there's no discussion to be had with you because you're not open to, you're not open to any kind of democratic process.
You're not open to any kind of discussion.
You're just, so what's the discussion?
What's the discussion to have?
Ultimately, you know, he doesn't put in these words, but ultimately, you know, this is going to come down to who can fight, who can win the battle here, you know, who wins the, who wins the fight, you know, and so there's no discussion to be had here.
I will say, you know, I saw a, I'll put this in the show notes.
So Hassan has done, Hassan has done some interviews like post-fact, you know, where he's kind of talked about the process.
And apparently he signed a bunch of like NDAs and such.
So he can't like say anything about like the making of it that doesn't like his personal experience or stuff that's like already out there.
And so they'll ask him questions about like, you know, well, what didn't make the cut and that sort of thing.
And he has to be really, really vague about it.
I would love to know.
I would love to get the raw footage from this.
I would dine out on the raw footage from this.
You know, this would be, you know, we would we would eat for a year, my friend.
no, but he does say, like, hey, like, one of these guys from the bulwark, and I don't typically listen to the bulwark, it just kind of came up in my recommended feed because I watched some stuff from the Mediason, and I was like, okay, let's watch this.
It's a good interview.
But I watched a few of their videos in the last couple of days, and they're Democratic strategists.
I mean, whatever.
They're Republicans, aren't they?
The Bulwark?
They're like, I think they're like post-Republicans.
It's like their mod.
They're like they used to, like, they were like teen Republicans who then kind of moved left and now they like work with Democrats and they have more progressive values.
I haven't looked into them deeply.
Anyway, so I'm not recommending the bulwark or anything.
I'm just saying I watched the bunch of videos, you know, so I watched some of their videos too.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, I, so, and, uh, and the guys, I have, I don't even know what his name, the guys like, so, you know, was this all for a show?
Like, he wanted it to be nicer than it was.
He wanted it to not be, he wanted it to be like all, all through the cameras.
And then like after the fact, it's like, oh, no, we don't actually believe this shit.
And Hassana's like, fuck that.
No, they were actually even worse to me after the camera, after the cameras went off.
And there are things that they said to me in that circle that did not make the cut of the episode that were worse than the things that they actually aired.
And he, I would love to know the details on that.
I would love to know what Jubilee is cutting out of their content.
I'll bet they get, I mean, they got pretty close to Holocaust denial as it was.
I'll bet they went there.
I'll bet somebody went to actual Holocaust.
Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, that guy, Connor, that Mehdi was talking to in the clip that I saw, he confronts him with, you know, he asks him, are you sympathetic to the Nazis?
No, no.
Is there anything that Hitler did you disagree with?
It's like, well, he was a little bit rough on the church.
I was like, well, what about the Jews?
I mean, I'll bet there was a little Holocaust denier who, I mean, A, I think Connor is a Holocaust denier because he's a fan of Reiper.
I think, I mean, he is a Holocaust, but I bet there was like explicit Holocaust, like the kind that you could not, you don't have to know what we know to know that that's Holocaust denial.
You know, the kind that like there were, there was somebody who says, you know, Hitler didn't kill six or or Hitler didn't kill enough.
There's probably somebody in that room who believed that because that's another thing that these fucking people believe.
I can believe it.
I can believe it.
I actually, I actually find that less reprehensible.
Like that, that's like, you know, admitting to what actually happened and what you want to happen to saying like, I want it to happen more.
That, like, I don't believe that to be like a good thing to believe, but like, that's at least more honest.
You know, it's, it's, you know, than like, oh, well, Hitler didn't actually do this thing that like clearly the entire weight of history says he did.
I mean, there's just so much documentation.
It's just, it's like, oh my God, I feel crazy when I listen to Holocaust deniers sometimes because the amount of like obfuscation that you have to do to pretend that like you're in the right here.
It's just, I mean, it's bizarre.
It's just bizarre.
Yeah.
But no, I'm quite prepared to believe that off camera or at least cut out of the show, maybe, there was open Holocaust denial going on.
But as I say, there was effective Holocaust denial happening in that clip because he says there was some persecution and stuff like that.
No, I don't, I don't disagree.
I'm just saying if that stuff did exist in the taping, it would tell you that Jubilee even more knows what they're doing is that they don't include those bits.
They only include the, you know, plausibly denial bits of it.
You know what I mean?
Which, again, you and I know that there is no plausible deniability there.
I'm not saying there's any deniability.
That guy's a fucking Nazi.
That guy is a Holocaust denier.
You know, I've seen his Twitter page.
Like, I know, I know who this guy is, even though I spent five minutes on him and I know exactly who he is.
But, you know, you show that to a normie and they're not going to immediately think that's a Holocaust denier or a Nazi.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
He's not literally wearing like the swastika on his on his hat, you know, sort of thing.
So Jubilee are editing out the most explicit.
If this material exists, if this material exists, to be clear, and I'm not, you know, I'm not making a legally actionable statement one way or the other.
Okay.
So if let's put an if in there.
If they're doing that.
If Media San said, and he did, that there was stuff worse than what was said in the sessions, not even after the cameras, but in the sessions, there was stuff worse that was being said that did not make the final cut.
I think Holocaust adapted is very likely to be in that.
And again, anything that is nastier than what was being said in those clips, and I watched the whole episode, anything that is nastier almost by definition has to mean that Jubilee is actively censoring the worst.
They're shaving off the roughest of rough edges in order to make it slightly more palatable for the audience to absorb.
To launder it so that it can sneak in.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I don't, I have no, I have no respect.
You know, I mean, I think it's important that I watch it sometimes if just to sort of get the hang of it, but you should not be watching this.
You should not be sharing this.
If you do share it, you should share it from a bootleg source or something.
You do, do not give them the YouTube ad revenue.
Do not give them time.
Yeah, this is, this is, you know, you know, honestly, I hate that we even discussed it, but I think we have to.
I think we had to discuss it.
So that's Jubilee.
Jubilee.
God, what?
Why do you have to call it fucking Jubilee?
Oh, my God.
Okay.
Away from this into more pleasant conversation about the sexual abuse of children.
Okay.
Let's continue.
Yeah.
Onto the only other thing happening in the world at the moment, which is the ongoing, rumbling, constantly, apparently constantly escalating thing that we're, I suppose we're calling the Epstein scandal.
I'm kind of thinking of it, we're covering it as the VAGA Civil War, because I think the Epstein, I mean, we should talk a little bit about the Epstein stuff, but really I think the more interesting bit, the bit that's more on our remit is how it's kind of tearing Trump and his base apart a little bit.
Yeah.
And I think that's, that's really kind of more where what I want to discuss.
We should definitely discuss kind of the Epsteininess of it all first.
But so yeah, you get us started.
Why don't you?
Well, the thing that I find genuinely puzzling about all this is why, I mean, I know that the trigger is that Pam Bondi said, that the current AG said a little while ago, apparently on Fox News, that the Epstein files, the Epstein client list, you know, as if there's a, as if there's a folder somewhere with, you know, my, my clients by Jeffrey Epstein and a list of names.
I know.
Right.
Like a manila file folder, you know, this is marked like pedophiles, you know, assigned to Jeffrey Epstein, you know?
That's right.
Yeah.
But she said it's on my desk ready, ready for release along with because they're making Like implied, like, I'm going to release it like tomorrow, the next day.
It'll be, it'll be, it'll be in your hands, like, very, and then radio silence.
So, anyway, yeah, continue.
Well, this thing about releasing secret files is a, is a, is a, a trope of the second Trump administration.
It's something they're doing.
I did a bit the first time around, but they're doing it a lot this time around.
They're talking about releasing all the, we talked about this previous in previous episodes a little bit, the JFK files, the UFO files, the MLK files, because they're obviously pandering to their base, which is made up of people who are very invested in this idea of, you know, that the government is hiding things from you and there's conspiracies and secrets and government documents.
And we're going to go in there and we're going to clean the Audian stable and we're going to release all the documents and drain the swamp and end the deep state and all that thing that seems to be terribly important aesthetically to the base.
So they're making a great big song and dance about that.
All this.
And one of the things that they, I mean, it's one of the things Trump ran on was we're going to release the Epstein files.
We're going to, I mean, we know what he thinks.
He doesn't, he doesn't really, he doesn't say it in those many words about the Epstein.
No, he never, yeah, no, he doesn't.
It's the people around him.
And I think that's more interesting.
I think that's, there's a, there's a distinction there.
Anyway, continue.
Well, that's, I mean, that's part of what's going on now, which is that, I mean, I think what you're going to say is that the MAGA civil war is happening, but a huge part of it is directed.
Even the people that are angry and frustrated about what the administration is doing or not doing, they're directing it away from Trump because a hell of a lot of this is being conducted through proxies and, as you say, people around him and stuff like that.
That's always been the way with this stuff.
And it's always been a key part of the, it's a key part of the Trump bases worldview that this whole sort of occult conspiratorial Kabbalistic view of government, that it's this evil secret organization that's steeped in.
They always talk about corruption and it's always, for them, it's this nebulous term.
They say, oh, there's that politicians are all corrupt.
And, you know, they can't go any further than that.
They can't go into any specifics.
It's just a kind of a generalized existential state of corruption.
It's a moral corruption, really, is how they feel about it.
And they want, one of the things they fantasize about Trump is that he's this figure from outside who's going to go in to the lair of the tiger, you know, and he's going to clear out all the secrets and clear out all the dirt and all this stuff.
And they're kind of, as I say, they're kind of doing this performance of doing that, except that they've run up against the fact, apparently, that there is probably stuff in these Epstein files, which is to say the huge amounts of information that's been gathered about him and from him in the course of the investigations into him,
which does at least, you know, implicate Trump in something or name him in some way as an associate with Epstein, at least in some way that he doesn't want to be.
I mean, I know what I think, but he does not want this to be public.
And Pam Bondi, they seem, I mean, another thing you can't forget about these people is their staggering, mountainous incompetence.
They obviously did not know, they did not reckon with the fact that they had this problem until they were halfway to releasing these files and then sort of stumbled across the fact that, oh, actually, we can't release these.
We can't release these.
So that seems to have been the trigger, the sort of, yes, we're going to release it.
Oh, actually, no, we're not.
Actually, no, there is no list, et cetera.
Apart from that, the thing that puzzles me is why the media is treating this like it's a new story.
Because we've known almost all this for almost 10 years.
Okay, here's what we know.
Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile, or he liked him young, like as young as 14 from what you understand.
I'm not doing this.
It's actually a pedophilia thing.
But look, the vision of like the army of pedophiles, these disgusting, slavering beasts of pedophiles is grown men, usually with hooked noses, you know, like noseferatu style, like slavering over four-year-old boys or something, you know, and then like, you know, like, you know, that's the, that's the, that's the horrible thing comes directly out of like the original Nazi propaganda, by the way, you know, like, yes, yes, absolutely.
Look at some of those old Nazi propaganda posts.
This is, this is, this is, I mean, this is M. I mean, this is M, you know, I mean, brilliant movie.
It's, it's, it's satirizing all that.
It's made in 31.
So it's made in Germany in 31 during the kind of the rise of the shit.
But, you know, it's very critical of that.
But it's also like, you know, the Nazis could have used that imagery, you know, explicitly.
I mean, and if you look at their propaganda posters, a whole lot of it like comes directly out of like that direct kind of it.
Oh, yeah.
There's a famous, there's a famous Nazi era propaganda poster of this little beautiful Aryan girl with the, with the blonde, you know, plaits and so on.
And there's this gigantic, hook-nosed, evil Jewish guy, you know, leaning over her, obviously sort of, you know, he's offering her a bag of sweets and stuff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And that is the image that the MAGA base have of this.
They think it's eight-year-olds and they think it's happening in like BDSM dungeons because their view of reality comes from law and order SVU.
That's where they get their view of I think it really comes from like 80s after school specials.
I don't know if we give them the sophistications of like law and order SVU.
It's like, you know, 50 shades of gray, but it's like a four-year-old or something.
Yeah, no, but you're right.
You're right.
It's, it's very, it's very that.
And whereas, whereas the truth is, the truth is, a lot of the way this abuse happened is a young woman, 14, 15, she's given like a piano, like a music scholarship by Epstein's Foundation and then gets to ask, hey, come on and like meet the members and well, it'll be a networking event and you can, and then one thing turns into another and then suddenly she's taking her shirt off and given a guy a hand job.
That's how this shit happened.
Like that's, that's what a lot of the allegations actually were is, you know, that is like, I was asked to get naked.
I was asked to do this kind of stuff.
And, you know, absolutely that sexual abuse.
But, you know, that looks a lot like a little, a lot of the fantasies that a lot of these, a lot of these guys who are in their 40s and 50s have.
It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, maybe they don't want a 15-year-old, but you know, like a 19-year-old, you know, like, yeah, I mean, this is just, this is kind of what you do, especially if you're, if you're, if you're wealthy and powerful and you have that kind of ability to do that, like, it's, it's, it's, I mean, you know, look, I'm not saying that's okay.
It's obviously not okay.
This is not acceptable behavior.
But this is, you've sent an article to me.
It's like the pedocon article.
I think, I think we should link to that.
I was kind of mentioning if you've got a, if you've got a quote from that or something, or if you want to like kind of highlight that.
I did read it, but I didn't like reread it right before we recorded.
So if you want to, if you want to go into that a little bit, I really agree that like the pedocon issue is, I think that gets closer to the truth of it than a lot of the other reporting has.
So go ahead.
Well, I don't have a quote from it, but I will point people towards it.
It's an article at Liberal Currents, which is doing some good stuff.
They're doing some great stuff.
Hey, I would love to come on the show and talk about this shit with you sometimes.
So I know I listen to their podcast.
They do a lot of great work.
I know you and I have been very anti-liberal in the past, but hey, we were quoted positively about the James Lindsey stuff back in the day when we went through the dog park papers and the grievance today's hooks.
Yeah, we were quoted.
I mean, we were cited.
We were cited, you know, to be clear.
He's like, you know.
I often feel I should be more nuanced when I throw the term liberal around, to be honest, because there's liberals and then there's liberals.
But Liberal Currents has been doing some very good work lately.
Lots of good stuff coming from there.
And I do, you know, I pretty much mostly endorse that article that they published quite recently.
I can't remember the name of the writer, but I'll link it obviously in the show notes about the so-called pedocon theory, which the basic idea of that is that there is just something integral to right-wing politics, which makes it, at the very least, I mean, this is an observable fact.
I'm sorry, but we see that it was just the other day, another one of the pardoned January 6s got done for child porn downloading.
Absolutely.
It happens over and over and over again.
You see these news reports about, you know, and I, God, talking about this, you run the risk of sounding like you're sort of cynically co-opting these issues for political advantage when we're talking about, you know, we're talking about horrible abuse of young people and stuff like that.
Absolutely.
And I'm not doing that.
Obviously, the main thing, and this is something I want to get onto, actually, with the media's treatment of the Epstein story.
The main issue.
I mean, this thing in the, this is in the news constantly at the moment, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, all over the news.
And, you know, it should be that Trump should be being hounded by this.
This must be torture for the survivors of that victims.
Every term they turn on the fucking television, there's his face.
There's Trump's face.
There's the name over and over, you know, and people laughing about it.
People doing comedy routines on late night television like it's a great big joke and so on.
But yeah, the point was you see the news stories constantly.
There's another guy who'd been arrested for sexual abuse or, you know, rape of a minor or whatever.
And it's a MAGA guy or it's a Republican.
And I'm not saying they're the only ones that do it, but I think there is a pretty clear empirical fact here that they're more likely to be the ones doing it.
I mean, to be honest, look at the Conservative Party in this country.
You could do, you could make a list of Conservative Party counselors who have been done for crimes and it's financial crimes and it's sex crimes, loads of them against minors.
This is an empirical fact, I'm afraid.
Right-wing politics, it does, you know, the Venn diagram is very, very clear.
And this article that you mentioned, it makes it a lot of fun.
I have it in front of me.
I have it in front of me here.
It's integral.
It's integral.
The author is Samantha Hancock Slee, by the way.
I do have it right here in front of me.
And I'm going to quote a couple of paragraphs here.
After all, Donald Trump is hardly the only Republican pedophile.
Dennis Hastert, Republican Speaker of the House, was a pedophile.
Roy Moy, Republican Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama, was a pedophile.
R.J. May, Republican State Representative, was a pedophile.
John Jessup, Republican county commissioner, was a pedophile.
Mark Foley, Republican member of Congress, sent sexually explicit messages to teenagers.
Matt Gates, Republican member of Congress, had sex with a 17-year-old.
Count that one if you like.
Edward Corstein, one of Elon Musk's handpicked Doge staffers, found on an image sharing website, Taylor Made for Sharing Child Porn.
The list goes on and on.
And this is all links to that.
And then the list is suggestive.
Sorry for reading so much of this, but I think it's very good.
And I want to highlight it.
And I want you to support the author.
The list is suggestive.
Stop telling yourself it's a few bad apples.
Stop telling yourself there are pedophiles in every large enough organization.
There are not this many pedophiles in every political party.
Both sides are not the same.
When Slate went looking for an equivalent list of Democratic pedophiles, they were able to come up with a random donor, the head of a local young Democrats, and Anthony Wiener sexts, not a speaker of the house, a chief justice, and a president.
It goes all the way to the top with these guys.
This is part and parcel of what they are.
And not like Republican Democrat.
This is what the right-wing movement in this country, particularly, but as you say, I presume in many countries, in many places, I'm just, I'm most familiar with my country, so I'll talk to it here.
The right-wing in this country is absolutely infested with this stuff.
And it's not, they're not, I'm not saying they're going after four-year-olds.
I'm saying they like him young.
Donald Trump, he bragged in like 2007 or something.
He was, he was like, he owned like the Miss Teen USA pageant or something like that.
And because I own it, I get to walk into the girls' dressing room whatever I want.
And these girls are 15, 16, 17.
He just bragged about it.
Just, oh, yeah, yeah, no, of course.
Like you think, you think Jeffrey Epstein didn't have a couple of 15-year-olds sitting around in skippy clothing?
And at least he didn't like to look?
I mean, he's on the record of saying he likes to look.
I mean, what the fuck are we talking about?
Donald Trump is all over this.
Of course he is.
I mean, it's just, I mean, we know, we know that Donald Trump likes him young.
And we know that Donald Trump owned a modeling agency, Trump Modeling.
And we know pretty much as a matter of certainty that that was a sex trafficking organization.
And he was friends with Geoffrey Epstein.
And two other guys, this guy, Casablanca and this other guy, Jean-Luc Brunel, They both owned their own modeling organizations that brought in young women and teen girls, all from the Eastern Bloc.
This is what I think this is about.
I think this is about a network of rich guys who all owned modeling agencies.
And in the late 90s, in the early 2000s, they were bringing in these girls from the former Soviet bloc in Eastern Europe, which was a region in economic chaos and social chaos at the time, girls that were desperate to get out of that area.
They were bringing them in and they were organizing all these modeling competitions.
And they were all in it with Jeffrey Epstein.
I mean, this is my theory anyway.
This was a gigantic de facto sex trafficking organization, bringing in loads of young women, teen girls, and recruiting at least some of them to be to be abused in, you know, like rich guys' hospitality, parties and clubs and stuff like that.
That's what this was.
And they treat it and they treat it and they treat it as like, it's an opportunity for them, you see, because they get to be around these guys.
And so it's like, God, we're going to do bombshell in a few weeks.
And that's like, God, it's just like, that's at least adult women, but you know, it's, it's very, very similar, very similar vibes.
Anyway, we'll get into that when we get into it.
But, you know, like you sell it as if like, you know, oh, we're giving them a leg up, you know, give them this, you know, piano, piano scholarship.
You give them this, you know, they get, they get a couple of grand to pursue their musical instruments so they can have a career in music, maybe.
And, you know, some of that is legit.
I'm sure there were young women who went through this process who, you know, maybe were abused, maybe weren't, and then went on to have successful careers.
It's the thing.
The Hollywood casting couch is a cliche for a reason.
You know, like, it's, you know, and look, I don't want to take it off.
I just want to make like there are larger societal problems here about the way that young women get abused and the way that the word pedophile gets used in these contexts and the like kind of the mania around it, which there are small children who are abused.
Like that is, there's no question.
There's no question.
Almost always by family members or people that they know.
I have domestic.
I have been partnered.
I have had many romantic partners, partners of various kinds over the years.
So I'm not identifying anyone in this case.
I've had at least two in my life, people that I knew personally, people that I had intimate relations with more than once, who were abused by family members or teachers when they were younger than the girls that are alleged that are known to be in Jeffrey Epstein's staple here.
So I know for a fact it happens.
We know for a fact that we're not saying it doesn't, but that's not, that's, that's the, they, they focus on those elements in like these kind of, and like Lawn Art SVU focuses on this stuff almost as a way of like getting around the more pervasive abuse of not quite, you know, the barely legal types or the not quite legal types, you know, like, you know, um, and again, we have a term.
We have a term for barely legal.
It's like, oh, she's finally 18.
I can, I can jerk off to her now, you know, like it's like, it's just, you know, it's just such like, we just have a weird hangup about this shit, you know, it's society-wide.
It's, it's, it's all through, it's all through our media.
It's all through everything.
I know we want to get to the MAGA civil war, but I want to say.
No, we, we have to, we have to cover this.
This is fine.
I mean, I think this is important to cover.
You know, we might cut it down a little bit, but, you know, please continue.
I want to sort of cap off the thing we were saying about the connection between this and reactionary politics.
Yeah.
Because I absolutely believe that in that connection.
As I say, it's pretty much an empirical fact at this point.
And it's based upon, I think, as that article argues, it doesn't, the article is very good.
It doesn't quite get to the heart of the issue for me, which I think is that there is just a fundamental basis in common between right-wing politics and paedophilic abuse, which is, of course, I mean, it's deeply tied up with misogyny and rape culture and stuff like that.
Control of women's bodies, particularly young women's bodies and young women's like nubile sexuality, like that has to be controlled, you see.
Yes.
That's property.
Anti-abortion, you know, anti-abortion laws, you know, you know, modesty laws, you know.
It's like you are allowed to be sexually available in the ways that we want you to be.
You're allowed to be attractive.
You're allowed to be, you know, like in societally controlled in ways that are controlled almost universally by wealthy elderly men or older men.
Let's be real about that because we live in a patriarchy.
Exactly.
That's it.
But like, I think, you know, we talk about like right wing that this is more a thing on the Republican side than the Democratic side.
But, you know, it's culture-wide.
It's, it's broader than just this is where I'm going.
Okay.
Go ahead, Geb.
This is where I'm going.
Reactionary politics is based upon domination and control.
It's based upon hierarchy.
It's based upon the idea that the people who currently have power are fundamentally, they should keep that power and property and they should keep it forever because they're fundamentally better.
And the proof of their superiority is, of course, the fact that they currently own all the property and have all the power.
That's why they have to keep the one in order to prove the other forever round and round in circles.
And that's always based upon, because the kind of world we live in, that kind of politics is based upon keeping of color in their proper place and people who are working class in their proper place and women and girls in their proper place.
It's fundamentally based upon the oppression of women and girls.
You control women's sexuality.
You control reproduction.
You control the home.
That's how you control the nuclear family.
The nuclear family is the basis of this entire system.
So it only makes, not only is it empirically true, you know, it's provable empirically, but it makes perfect theoretical sense as well, that the further right you go, the more your politics should be based upon domination, control, keeping people in their place, which is inherently abusive.
So that's how you get there.
You only have to, I mean, like the, maybe the ultimate extreme expression of that is when you go to these, these enclaves where you have the fundamentalist Mormon communities, you know, people like Warren Jeff, stuff like that, that keep, that have the, the, the polygamous communities where they, they, they, they expel the teenage boys and they keep the teenage girls there.
And every one of these guys in this community, they all have three, four, five, six, seven wives and they pick themselves the late, you know, the girl gets to be 14 or whatever, and she becomes this elder's wife or whatever.
And, you know, they keep them.
They're like picking the ripest cherries or something.
It's like, oh, God, it's so disgusting.
Vile.
But they keep them in clothes and hairstyles that make them look like they're in the 19th century, like they're 19th century settlers.
That's a really sort of distilled expression of what I'm talking about, but it's right the way across.
And at the same time, I want to say it's not just the right.
This happens because we live in a culture that is based upon.
We live in a rape culture and we live in a paedophilic culture.
We live in a culture that sexualizes girls on the front covers of mainstream newspapers, on television programs, in films, all the time.
I mean, as I say, my basic take on why Trump wants this Epstein stuff covered up is because I think I don't doubt that Trump abused the underage girls that were supplied to him by Jeffrey Epstein.
Personally, I don't doubt that he did that.
I don't think that's the, you know, it's, it's, I'm not downplaying it as a crime.
I don't think it's the fundamental thing he's worried about.
I think the fundamental thing he's worried about is probably the fact, as I was thinking about, he was a part of a network of guys that owned quote unquote modeling agencies that were basically, as far as I can tell, fronts for sex trafficking operations.
But they were also modeling agencies and they were also, you know, it's maybe a bit simplistic to call it cover, but like the legit, the quote unquote legitimate side of what they were doing was these modeling contracts and modeling competitions.
And that was legal and that was mainstream.
14 year old, 15 year old, 16 year old girls parading up and down in swimsuits and lingerie to be judged by panels of people, men and women, to be, you know, photographed.
That might not be illegal, but that in any sane society, that would be repellent and bizarre.
And yet that just happened out in the open.
That was the legitimate wing of what they were doing.
Well, ask yourself why like women's Olympic gymnastics is made of like 14 and 15 year olds and men's is made of like 23 year olds.
And, you know, you kind of reach the same conclusion.
And they start when they're like four, five, six years old.
I mean, cause it just takes that long to train.
And I know people have it.
It's like, well, you know, the muscles have to be limber and they have to, you know, once they get to a certain age, it's like, bullshit, bullshit.
Like, I'm sorry.
I just, you know, you could, you could do this.
This is something I never really thought about before.
But yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
The other thing I wanted to touch on again is the fact that, as I say, most of this has been known the entire time.
If you look at, as I mentioned, Kyle Kalinsky earlier, he did a video.
I'll link to it where he kind of did a roundup of some of the most incriminating because this, one of the things, let's be clear about this.
There are accusations from countless women who were, you know, maybe legal or just under legal at the time about Trump doing things to them or acting creepily around them, going back, countless accusations going back years, right?
There's loads of this stuff.
And Kyle Kalinsky did a kind of Roundup video.
And one of the things he talks about are these modeling agencies.
And he shows you news stories about this.
And the dates on them are 2015, 2016.
We've known this this entire time.
The media talks about like this is this Epstein thing is this new scandal that's just emerged.
And yeah, they are coming up with new information.
I think we're going to talk a little bit about the Wall Street Journal story about the birthday card.
Oh, you think most of this has been, you know, and the big picture.
The big picture has been known.
Like the really, the really awful, like the stuff that, you know, there's, this should, there should have, there was enough known about this in 2015.
They should have been able to bury Donald Trump with it before this ever became a problem.
But yeah, nobody cared.
This is, this is, this is the, this is the fundamental point I want to get to.
We knew that this guy was creepy about women and girls this entire time.
We knew he was friends with the sex trafficking rapist of underage girls, Jeffrey Epstein, this entire time.
We knew.
And nobody, fundamentally, nobody cared because nobody cares about women or girls.
Nobody cares.
We sometimes remember to make a sort of good pretense of caring like we're doing now.
But it rings pretty fucking hollow, I think.
Yeah, no, agreed.
So I can't comment on a lot of that just because I haven't seen a lot of that reporting.
So hopefully I will check the Kyle Kalinsky video and check it for myself because a lot of that stuff is just, you know, I never followed this that closely.
I was just kind of like, you know, he's a pedophile.
He's obviously friends with the Donald.
He's got, you know, like I already knew enough to know that these two were well connected and that Trump probably did some nasty shit.
But like, so I just, I just never looked that deeply into it.
I had other things to look at, but I, I, you know, again, I can't, I can't independently confirm, but I, you know, I believe you.
I believe that you are most likely correct.
And that's of all the theories about what's really going on in Trump's head with this stuff, I think that comes the closest to the truth for me.
Okay.
So, okay.
So do we do the poem?
Let's do the poem.
Yeah.
Because this came out and it's just like, it's just one of those things of like, how do you, how do you spend this?
Like, this is, this is, I mean, okay.
So this is, it's like a hardbound book.
God, I was listening to like Robert Evans just before we got on the like an hour or two ago.
And he's like, I really want this whole book.
I agree.
Please, somebody give, somebody give Robert Evans this book.
I want it.
I want him to have it.
I want him.
I want him to have it.
If no one else, if anybody should get it, I think he should get it.
Although, although the like the legal cases, you know, they should have it first.
But, you know, journalists give it to Robert Evans.
He will know what to do with it.
But I want to read the other messages and see.
Oh, yeah.
Who else is in there?
Exactly.
Because this is a book.
It's like, it's like 50 pages or something like that.
It's like 50 hand-drawn notes.
And they've been bound into a book.
And it's from, you know, the early 2000s or something.
And one of them is a doodle of a naked woman by Donald Trump.
And it's signed Donald Trump.
And Donald Trump, his signature is a squiggly signature.
It's a famous signature.
And it's kind of down where the pubic hair would be in this, in this caricature.
And then either, I think it's underneath that or maybe, but I think it's underneath that.
There is a poem or something.
I don't know.
I wouldn't call this a poem.
It's kind of a it's kind of a dialogue, isn't it?
Well, it's written.
It's very odd.
It's written to be like a, like, like a television production, like, like a script, you know, for, you know, for, for, and apparently Trump is known for having done this back in the day.
He used to write a lot of, you know, he used to write a lot of notes in this kind of format.
Trump is a TV guy.
He's belonged.
he's been a TV guy since the 80s.
He loves fucking TV.
He staffed his entire administration with Fox News hosts at this point.
You know, this is, we'll get, we'll get into that shortly.
Anyway, let's read the poem.
I have it in front of me.
I mean, it is linked in that Liberal Currents article that we're going to link in the show notes so you can read it yourself.
Voiceover, there must be more to life than having everything.
The notes started.
Donald, yes, there is, but I won't tell you what it is.
Jeffrey, nor will I, since I also know what it is.
And this is written by Donald J. Trump.
Okay.
So.
Donald, we have certain things in common, Jeffrey.
Jeffrey, yes, we do, come to think of it.
Donald, enigmas never age.
Have you noticed that?
Oh, oh, oh, that.
And that's not even, that's not even the worst line of the poem.
Like, Jeffrey, as a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you.
This sounds like dialogue from a telenovela that's been translated from Spanish into English or something.
It's like, it's so bizarre construction.
Anyway.
This is why I believe Trump wrote this because it's shit from anything else.
It's shit.
Donald, this is the last line.
A pal is a wonderful thing.
Happy birthday.
And may every day be another wonderful secret.
I mean, look, if you want to, like, let's pretend Jeffrey Epstein is not like a convicted pedophile, right?
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's pretend that we didn't know anything else about these guys.
There are other, you know, this could be financial crimes.
This could be all kinds of things.
You know, you know, this, and maybe that's what this is.
But given what we know about Epstein and given what we know about Trump, given all the, all his pinchon for, you know, going after young girls, this is damning.
This is, this is, this is a smoking gun for like, oh, yeah.
He knew they were doing it together.
That is, I cannot like, it is almost impossible for me to read that any other way.
Of course, it's also like I was saying, like, maybe there's, maybe he just likes to doodle the naked girl or something like that.
But the fact that it's in the, it's like, can I, it's like, like, if this, and the Wall Street Journal, the Wall Street Journal is not like a lefty paper.
Like this, this is a right-wing newspaper.
Yeah.
It's owned by Rupert fucking murder.
What the fuck?
And they're like, no, this is faked.
The Democrats faked this.
I mean, oh my God.
Oh, yeah.
Instantly.
Like Elon Musk, Cernovich, Pasobiak, they all immediately, they all immediately just said, oh, that's, that's a hoax.
Oh, you know this, do you?
No, look, I mean, by its, by itself, obviously, that doesn't prove a thing, right?
Also, that's basically a signed confession.
In context, with everything else we know, even with just what's publicly available, what has been published in a fucking newspaper, that is a smoking gun.
There is absolutely no way that is not.
I mean, it's just, it's just beyond me.
It's just beyond me.
It's been suggested that the line enigmas never age, that in that line, the word enigmas, which Trump claimed, he never used the word enigmas, he's never used that word.
And people have gone on, people have said, oh, we've done a search of all his recorded TV appearances and speeches.
And he's never used the word.
There's loads of clips of him using the Daily Show.
The Daily Show actually did a really good one on this.
I know, like the Daily Show.
Okay, okay, I know, I know, I know.
But, you know, they did a really great clips package on this where, you know, they have him claiming he never said the word enigmas.
And they have John McWhater, John fucking McWater.
Oh, I've done a linguistic analysis and I've never, he doesn't use that word.
And then they clip to two clips from 2015 of him using the word Enigma.
Like, you know, it's like, he described like Ted Cruz's Enigma on camera, like fairly, like, very conversant with the word.
This is not like a word that he doesn't know.
He knows this word.
I mean, yeah, it's like, yes.
Maybe he doesn't know it now.
Maybe his brain is.
He might have forgotten it now.
I mean, but now that his, his brain is, is, you know, shattered pieces dropping out of his ears.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's been suggested that the word enigmas in that sentence might be an anagram of gamines, which is a French word, which means young girls.
And that is.
That strikes me as a reach.
It strikes me as a reach, but also it's the sort of thing that these creepy motherfuckers do.
Yeah.
I mean, they use.
Maybe they're using the word Enigma in the lingo.
It's like it's like a code word.
God, this starts to feel way too pizzagate for me.
I'm sorry.
I'm not going to sign up.
I know.
I know.
Yeah.
Let's stick to the facts.
Even if it's not that, this is super creepy.
Anyway, anyway.
Okay.
Okay.
MAGA Civil War.
Are we out of that now?
Okay.
There's a lot of talk about this MAGA Civil War that's supposedly happening.
Sure.
I have been a little bit agnostic about whether or not this is actually happening and the extent to which it's actually happening until fairly recently.
Apparently, there was some good reporting from a White House insider, which seems fairly credible, which has Trump absolutely freaking out about this, just absolutely shitting himself, basically.
And very, very upset about the fact that they, and by they, he means, you know, his base, MAGA, won't stop talking about it.
It might be being talked up a bit by the sort of mainstream media and lefty online content creators.
I don't know.
But it does seem to be a real thing.
He's certainly acting like it's a real thing.
He is visibly really freaked out by the fact that this thing has come back and it won't go away.
He's lashing out at his supporters in his interviews and in his truth social posts.
He's basically threatening them, saying, you know, if you don't shut up about this, then I'm not going to let you be my friend anymore.
And you're going to be like Eli and you're going to be off the reservation.
I don't like you.
You're fired.
You're fired.
You said the bad words and I don't like.
These are terrible Donald Trump impersonations, but that's fine.
But I mean, we have Bannon at MAGA events being heckled by the crowd, by people screaming at him, you know, Trump is now deep state.
We have Megan Kelly and Charlie Kirk at TPUSA, and they're saying, and Laura Ingram at TPSA, and they're all saying, you know, are any of you worried about this Epstein thing?
And the crowd are booing and they're saying, you know, it does genuinely seem to be a thing.
Trump's approval ratings are down across the board.
And, you know, even on immigration, which used to be his strongest numbers.
And the issue that he's just through the floor, I think his approval rating on this is like minus 40 or something is the handling of the Epstein saga.
Now, I don't know if there's any polling from within the MAGA base that shows how much support he's leaking in there in the sort of core of full-on sort of Trump rally attending MAGA voters.
I don't know if they're deserting him, but there definitely does seem to be a lot of unease.
You can tell that in the way the MAGA media sphere are reacting.
The way people like Luma and Candace Owens and, as I say, Charlie Kirk and Megan Kelly and so on, the way they are scrabbling around like headless chickens trying to work out a way to react.
Yeah, no, what's interesting, I mean, like Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk was recently at, or like over the, over the like, I think it was the holiday weekend over the July 4th weekend, but I might have my date slightly wrong.
So don't, you know.
He was, he had a thing, he was at a thing with Pesobiac and a bunch of these other guys called the student actions, student action summit, SAS.
And they advertised it incessantly for the like, so I listened to this fucking like ad read like a thousand times.
Not a thousand, but you know, I listened to it a bunch of times.
And like on the stage, then they released like audio from the stage and Charlie Kirk and Jack Pesobiac and everybody, they're going out there and going like, release the files, release the Epstein files.
We want the Epstein files because at that point, they're like media influencers and they're here.
They, they, their bread and butter is like feeding the, feeding the base, feeding the gruel to to the, to the yawning mass because that's how they get, that's how they make money.
And then when, when daddy Trump made a phone call and it's like, no, we're not doing that.
Then they have to turn like on a dime and be like, yeah.
I mean, Charlie Kirk is literally like, there's like, again, the Daily Show had a clip.
It's like Charlie Kirk, like one day going, like, we want the files.
We have to release the files, every word of them.
And then like, you know, two days later, he's like, look, Donald Trump is working on this.
I trust Donald Trump to do the right thing.
I trust my friends in the government.
I trust my friends in the government.
And he does have friends in the government.
That's the thing.
All these people have like extended networks, like, you know, Pesobiac, Kirk, Kelly.
Kelly's a little bit more mainstream, but like these guys, although they all go on each other's fucking shows, so whatever.
But, and they all have a line.
And I'm going to tell you the line.
Well, they tried to kill him.
They tried to do so much.
They, the nebulous they, of course, but, you know, it's like the, the, the mainstream, the, you know, the, you know, they tried to kill him.
They tried to put him in jail.
They tried everything.
Don't you think if he was in the Epstein files, they would have released it?
Wouldn't Joe Biden have done something?
And it's like that fucking impeachment, that fucking trial, everybody dragged their feet because nobody wanted to do it.
Right.
Until it, and so it dragged on until it was too late.
Merrick Garland should have had him in a set of cuffs like two days after Biden took office.
He should have been in prison for two years already by the time the 2024 election.
Exactly.
And like stripped of his ability to run again.
That, you know, there's the Democrats, absolutely.
And, you know, I think at the time I was more on the, okay, you know, like a disgraced former president has never, like in the modern era, has never come back and run again.
He will drift off into the distance.
And for a little while, it looked like he did.
And for a little, but the moment.
I don't think you can really blame the Democrats for thinking we don't need to go after him anymore.
He's all thought that.
But then when he did start to come back, they still drugged their feet on it.
And it's just, let's say, it's just unconsciousable.
There were ways to do this.
And, you know, like, again, I'm not Merritt Garland.
I'm not a member of that government.
I'm not a Democratic Party pollster.
If you really wanted to have the rule of law and you really wanted to say that what Donald Trump did in his first four years was not acceptable by, you know, the standards of decency, they should have gone after him.
It was a political calculation not to.
Let's just be completely honest about it.
I understood it at the time.
Really bit us all in the ass in the end.
But, you know, so my hands are not clean.
But then again, I'm not Merrick Garland.
I had no ability to do this.
I was just like, okay, I sort of get it.
Like, you know, as someone kind of looking at this from afar, I sort of get why you don't want to ruffle that feather.
You just want to let the sleeping dog lie.
But, well, that sleeping dog didn't sleep for very long.
That's, that's the, that's the point.
Anyway, so now everybody is doing the line.
Look, Bill Clinton, you and I may disagree on this.
I think he probably got a hand job from a 17-year-old a few times.
You know, I think that's, you know, I think you are, you're a little bit less sanguine about that.
But, you know, like, look, neither one of us know.
We know who was on the plane a bunch.
We know a lot of people.
I mean, there were celebrities.
They're mathematicians.
They're like, this is way bigger than just like the Democratic Party.
There are a whole lot of people who really, you know, financiers, people who are giving money, people who are big money donors.
Nobody wants this shit to get out.
Nobody except for the public.
The public would love to see it.
I'd love to see it.
I mean, you know, like, we don't want the victims' names.
We don't want like, you know, that stuff to come out, but we want to know who was involved in this and what they fucking did.
You know, like, yeah.
And for prosecutions to happen where needed, you know, whoever it touches.
Bernie Sanders is not.
But if Bernie Sanders was involved in it, it would break my heart.
But yeah, fucking go after Bernie Sanders.
I'm 100% on board with it.
You know, like, you know, I don't know.
Like the idea that you're now seeing like there are like cracks within the movement as to like who is like closer to the inside and doesn't want to blame Daddy Trump versus the ones who are outside of that like kind of warm circle of light and who are much more like much less reticent to say Donald Trump is involved.
Like, you know, the guy like the older, like the Daily Showboys are like, yeah, Trump is totally guilty.
But like, this is just a sign he's just secretly controlled by the Jews, you see, like Jeffrey Epstein.
And he has Jewish control over him.
And so it's really, they blame the Jews and not, but like Donald Trump was dirty on this.
And like, everybody knows Donald Trump was dirty on this.
I don't know.
Like the idea that like suddenly it's like, and now, and now when we say MAGA civil war, there is like sort of like different factions of MAGA and how they're, you know, kind of responding to different like media outlets and like how close you are to Donald Trump is sort of like determining, you know, whether you get to say true things or not about this.
But much more so, it is, it is going to be a thing in the base.
It's like, you know, is the base going to stand with him?
And I honestly don't know the answer to that question.
Trump has had a remarkable ability to survive scandals that no one, he's, he's done it like a hundred times, survived scandals that would have crushed anybody, any other person.
This feels like a thing that might, that might give him some problems, you know, I mean, he, and I mean, the fact that they're even, they're still digging in, they're like refusing to release like Congress is going to sit and vote to like release the files.
And then what was it?
One of the guys is like, sorry, go ahead.
Supposedly, supposedly, anyway, and you know, I'm very skeptical because I've heard stuff like this before, you know, they were going to have trouble getting the big beautiful bill through, if you believe the media, which no, they weren't.
But supposedly, some Republicans were going to vote with the Democrats to release at least some of the Epstein files, which is why Mike Johnson decided to just circumvent the whole problem by shutting Congress down three weeks early or whatever until September.
So we get like six weeks to let this like, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure the pedophilia scare off, but I'm sure people who have lived through 10 years of QAnon are going to like six weeks, it's going to, you know, it'll, they'll just completely, the embers of the fire will be cold by then.
So we're, we'll be good.
No, like this, it's only getting worse.
The other line is Trump's line that the file is actually a hoax.
Trump is desperately trying to sell the idea to his people that he's saying we're Epstein hoax.
That's what it's called now forevermore.
It's called the Epstein hoax.
Yeah.
And, you know, Alex Jones seems to be going with that.
Alex Jones started by, you know, doing that thing that he does occasionally where he sort of fake cries about how Trump has let him down.
And then he switched to, oh, no, actually, yeah, the whole thing was cooked up by James Comey and Brennan and Obama and so on.
So yeah, I don't know how many people are going for that, but that's Alex Jones.
No, you're, you're seeing, you're seeing that it's like, it feels like almost like they're trying out test balloons of like, what are people going to believe?
You know, and so like Megan Kelly brings.
That's exactly what they're doing.
They're trying to throw coats on the bottom.
So many theories of what could be going on.
And none of them just say Donald Trump is fucking guilty because they can't say that.
They can't say Donald Trump is fucking guilty.
There's something incriminating on Donald Trump.
And therefore, like the real hardcore QAnon people, like their angle on it, like the way that they're like treating it is Donald Trump was secretly undercover with these guys.
And he's been, you know, he's been this hero all along.
And maybe he got a little dirty in the process, but he's going to come out and he's going to actually like crush these guys.
And it's all just trust the plan.
You know, if he says he can't do it now, he's going to do it later.
He's going to do it down the line.
And it's like, oh my God, you people are fucking cults.
We're sick.
Again, because they don't know anything.
They don't understand anything about the real world.
Their view of reality comes from shitty TV and shitty movies.
That's why they think this, or at least that's why they're able to pretend that they think that anyway.
They have half-remembered episodes of the X-Files and White Squall are the only two media.
A lot of the emphasis I'm seeing seems to be a kind of talking about it without talking about it thing.
They do an awful lot of talking about how the administration is mishandling it.
Alex Jones was doing that.
He was talking about how, oh, Trump is handling it in the wrong way and it's a train wreck of a response and so on.
The implication being that, you know, it's mystifying why Trump is behaving the way he is when he could so easily handle it openly and honestly, because obviously he's innocent.
That's the maneuver that's being pulled there.
But loads of that they're talking, I mean, obviously there's the blame Bondi thing.
Megan Kelly was doing that at TPUSA.
She's made it into a big sort of and I don't really know what, I mean, I'm not defending Pam Bondi, but I don't really know what Bondi is supposed to have done.
I mean, is she being criticized for accidentally telling the truth about the files existing?
You know, is that the problem that she forgot to lie once?
Because we don't know like exactly what the empirical truth is.
It's kind of hard to say like what like either there is like something like a file.
I mean, obviously there are files, but either there is like, you know, some document that they could release that's like that goes into this.
There's like some summary, some DOJ summary or something.
Like I'm sure there's like a hundred page document that exists that could be released that goes through all this.
Like the multiple.
Well, we know there's loads of, there's loads of documents that they gathered.
Because the news story came out that they had loads of FBI agents going through the files and flagging mentions of Donald Trump.
We know that there's, I mean, we know that we know now, despite Trump's denials, that Pam Bondi told him he was in the files.
Right, right, exactly.
Oh, this.
I think my, and this is why I really like your hypothesis, is that they don't come from like Trump's orbit originally.
They come from like the media circus.
They come from like feeding that gaping mom, from feeding this MAGA base.
Yeah.
And so then he like handpicks these people from these media organizations and from this to like run actual positions of authority.
This has always been like the dumbest thing.
Like it's just the single dumbest thing about Trump too is like he picks loyalists who he likes watching on TV instead of like competent professionals.
Because he's a Fox News grandpa.
Fundamentally, what he is, he's your Fox News grandpa who was accidentally put into the Oval Office.
He likes his shows.
And so like any Fox News grandpa suddenly and unexpectedly made president, he would hire the people that are on the shows that he likes.
And that's exactly what he did.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But, you know, because he's not hiring competent professionals, they're continuing to feed that MAGA base.
And Trump, I guess, doesn't realize that these people believe it.
Like he only, for once, he might not actually be able to pull off the magic trick.
And that's, and I think that's the realization he comes to.
And then suddenly he has to like try to shut it down.
But like these people, I think they're going to turn on him.
I mean, I, you know, like, I, I think some of them will drink the Kool-Aid and keep going.
But I think there are a whole lot of them, a whole big chunk of them are going to do exactly, you know, what, what the alt-right did when, you know, at a certain point, we did an episode about fascination and how they just turned on a diamond Suddenly, they were Trump supporters.
They were full on.
Trump is going to do this.
Trump is going to do that.
He's an actual fascist.
He's not a fascist, but he's going to like, and they were supported him all the way.
And then they just suddenly, they flipped the switch and they called him like big orange Arsler, you know?
And so I think you're going to, I think, I think this is going to be a real moment where you might see like significant chunks of the more QAnon-inspired right, the more QAnon-inspired, you know, like section of the MAGA movement really get, really get turned off of Donald Trump.
And I think that's going to have really interesting impacts on our politics.
That's almost the, you know, I mean, the best version is they just release the fucking documents and then we get to have the free-for-all, you know, for the next four years.
If in fact Trump has, you know, victims, well, we know Trump has victims already, you know, that the man is an adjudicated perpetrator of sexual assault already.
And yeah, but it would, if it would be nice if he, if he did indeed leave behind him, well, we know pretty much definitely that there's a trail of abused women in his wake, even more probably to come to light, you know, whether in the so-called Epstein files or not.
It would be really nice if at some point some of them could get some justice.
Whether or not that'll ever happen, you know, based on past precedent, it's depressingly unlikely.
But yeah, I think it's possible that a segment of his support, his core support might genuinely desert him on this because I think he thinks that the support for him is based upon what an amazing, wonderful genius guy he is.
And I don't think it ever was.
I think there's lots of complex interlocking reasons why people support Donald Trump.
I think probably the biggest or one of the biggest for a lot of these people is not really about him.
It's just that they judged these people who are vociferous, vicious, incipiently genocidal reactionaries.
They looked at him and they judged accurately enough that of all the politicians that they had to choose from, he was the one who would be the most likely to round up and imprison and maybe, if they were lucky, kill the people they hate.
You know, they want to see gay people and trans people and POC and immigrants and liberals and Democrats and left-wing Hollywood actors and stuff like that.
They want to see these people paraded through the streets in chains and put in prison.
And a lot of them, they want to see them rounded up and killed.
And they judged Trump, you know, of all these people, Trump is the one most likely to do that.
And that's why Trump and the Trump party machine fed them this narrative about the Epstein files, which tied in, as you say, to the whole QAnon thing, which is only sort of the most extreme version of that thing that was common across that entire base.
Well, and a lot of the QAnon people have like learned to like tone down the language a little bit, but they're still Marjorie Taylor Greene is the quintessential example.
She was a QAnon influencer who made the transition to being a MA politician.
And what's she doing?
She's doing this, the dance, isn't she?
Because all these people, they have to report to their core MAGA-based support in their own constituencies.
They don't want to have to go back to where they come from and be confronted by their voters saying, why are you voting to help the deep state cover up pedophiles?
They don't want to have to do that.
But when they're in Washington, of course, they have to be subservient to Trump.
So, I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene is doing this thing where she does tweets where she says, oh, I'll never back down.
You know, we need justice for the victims of the elite evil cabal and so on.
And then she votes against the files being released.
A lot of these people didn't make the jump.
They didn't successfully transition from being, you know, lucrative QAnon influencers to being mega lucrative, having mega lucrative political careers the way she did.
They're still where she was.
And from their point of view, they're seeing the beautiful dream that Trump offered them of seeing, you know, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and Oprah Winfrey and Tom Hanks dragged through the streets in chains.
They're seeing it evaporate because they, of course, bought, they thought, by definition, the evil people that were abusing children would be the people that they hate.
They'd be the liberals and the leftists and people like that and the Democrats.
And they edited out the, you know, the observable, known, objective empirical fact that it wasn't those people.
It was Donald, you know, that Bill Clinton's on the list.
We know that.
But it was Donald Trump and people like that.
They edited that out.
And they're being confronted with, you know, the stark, basically they're being confronted with the stark gap between their fantasies and the reality of Donald Trump.
And Donald Trump, in a way, is being confronted with that gap too.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
What do you think about the Epstein tape, the three-minute gap in the videotape?
Does that bring anything to, I mean, does that, well, A, does it bring anything to mind, which, you know, as mutual, as we have a mutual interest in the presidency of Richard Nixon, you know, like some of this rhymes, but I don't know.
Like, I have long been, I have long been of the opinion, and I've said this on this podcast a couple of occasions, so, you know, you can go back that I have a very strong belief that Jeffrey Epstein actually did kill himself for reasons.
And that, like, if there was, if there was, if, if he didn't do it absolutely alone, he bribed a guard or he bribed a fellow inmate or, you know, something like that.
You know, there's some, you know, but it's not like a vast conspiracy.
When they release a tape with like three minutes missing and they're like, no, no, there's just a minute that's missing because, no, they reset at midnight, et cetera.
And it's like, and they show like, when they show like a clearly doctored video, suddenly even my brain, even my like very rational brain that does not want to jump to these, to these kinds of conspiracies is like, maybe there's some smoke there.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Like, I'm starting to think about it.
I still think the, the most likely thing is that he actually did just kill himself and maybe had assistance from a guard.
But I don't know.
There's just a big question mark over all over everything now because it's just like, they're just so obviously covering a whole lot of shit up for like no reason.
Okay.
Well, not for no reason, but you know what I mean.
Like, it's just, you know, like, what do you, you know, just don't release the tape.
If you can't release the tape, don't release the tape.
Don't release the tape with an edit and then go, oh, there's, there's no edit there.
No, that's normal.
That's normal.
You can nothing to see here.
Move along.
Move along, you know?
Apparently it was edited on some sort of basic video editing package like Adobe Premiere or something like that.
And they, you know, it took, it took the, the, the experts two minutes to look at the metadata and say, Yeah, this has been edited and copied and edited about three times.
There was a great little report at Wired that demonstrated that.
And Kate went through the technical details.
It's just like Wired, another magazine that absolutely is swinging for the fences.
Killing it lately.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, Megan Kelly.
Maybe that's not a metaphor we should use in this context.
Maybe that's not the right.
Maybe that's not the right metaphor.
Yeah.
Megan Kelly seems to be leaning towards the idea that Epstein was assassinated.
You know, she had her debate with Ben Shapiro.
But yeah, no, I did watch that.
I did watch that debate.
And, you know, Ben Shapiro being like, well, my sources tell me.
And I trust the cops.
And I trust the, you know, I trust the government.
The government is like, and Megan Kelly is like, she gets to be a little bit more skeptical.
That's her brand.
That's the thing we're going to talk about when we pose.
But that's her brand is to be like, well, of course, Trump isn't in the files because if he was in there, then she does the whole, you know, well, of course, Biden would have released this information years ago if Trump was in the files.
She does that.
And it's just like, it's just unstated.
It's completely unstated.
But she gets to be a little bit more skeptical.
She gets to be a little bit more hard-edged.
That's her brand is to be a little bit rougher around the edges around the people around him while still defending Donald John Trump from any hint, from any hint, scintilla of scandal.
That's another thing that's going on.
We're blatantly seeing people using this situation to attack each other.
People are hating each other.
That's been fun to watch.
That's fun to watch.
When you do what I do, when you do what I do for a living, this is gold.
This is the stuff you wait for.
I remember when everybody turned on Richard Spencer back in the day, that was a fun week.
Megan Kelly took the opportunity to attack Laura Ingram.
Megan Kelly, as you say, part of her pose is that she's more independent and skeptical than a lot of people on the right.
And while she's sitting there on the stage with Charlie Kirk, effectively, you know, giving Trump a verbal blowjob for how great a president he's being.
And then she says one sort of mildly critical thing of how this was handled.
And that makes her, you know, a fearless, independent voice.
But then she does this thing where she says, well, a lot of people on the right are, you know, putting too much trust in Trump and the administration when it comes to this issue, like Laura Ingram.
And then you have the recent gambit by Tulsi Gabbard to get back in Trump's good graces after she accidentally said something true about Iran not actually being anywhere near having a nuclear weapon just before the president wanted to bomb Iran.
And apparently that put her on the outs.
And she's trying to get back in by releasing this bullshit story about Russia Gate being concocted by Obama, which Trump has just, of course, immediately accepted completely.
You know, he sat in the Oval Office now saying, we now have proof that the whole thing, the whole Russiagate thing was concocted by Barack Obama.
He should be arrested immediately.
But part of that, of course, is that Tulsi Gabbard gets to send that to Pam Bondi at the Justice Department and basically say, there you go, ball's in your court.
So if Pam Bondi doesn't try to prosecute Barack Obama for a coup d'état for investigating Russian interference, that will put her in Trump's bad books.
I love this.
No, I actually saw some people suggesting that based on what Trump has said about Obama, Obama has a very interesting defamation lawsuit.
He could be like, you know, like if Barack Obama wanted to get back in and wanted to do like something that would actually sort of redeem a lot of the bad shit he did for eight years as president, using his star power, like he has this kind of star power that Donald Trump does.
He can go on television.
He can speak to people.
People would listen to him in a way that they listen to Donald Trump, in a way that like he has that kind of charisma.
He has that kind of power.
If he chose to, the way he crushed Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary, you know, to be clear.
Yeah.
If he chose to, he could, but he won't.
No, no.
But yeah, but you're right.
I mean, Trump did.
Trump sat in the Oval Office and said, Barack Obama's guilty of treason against the United States and should be put in prison.
You know, that's, you know, and it's manifestly false.
You know, whatever else you want to say about Barack Obama, that story is an absolute bunch of bullshit.
There is no one, there's no one who loves America more than Barack Obama.
Maybe Mediassan.
I think Mediasan might love America more.
He was very obsequious to America and to the founding ideals and stuff in that Jubilee clip.
But no, you asked me about the videotape and I believe Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.
But yeah, this situation, it makes it very difficult for you to retain sometimes anyway, it makes it very difficult for you to retain sort of the what you like to think of as your level head about these things, particularly when you hear stuff like one of those other guys that Trump was friends with who also owned a modeling agency, this guy, Brunel, he also apparently committed suicide while in prison.
That's the sort of thing that, you know, you can't help going, oh, fucking hell.
But look, then you have to stop and think about it.
And like, rich guys, they've lived in luxury for years.
They've finally been caught.
They're in prison.
They're facing losing everything, 20 years in prison for sex crimes against children.
Middle-aged guys, yes, it makes perfect sense that both of those guys would decide to take the easy way out.
I believe that.
But yeah, sometimes it's hard to retain your objectivity.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's almost like, what if they edited it just to make it look suspicious?
What if this is all just like more like, you know, the pigpin smoke?
You know, what if it's, what if it's that?
What if it's just, we're just going to create so much like smoke that we're going to hide the fire?
You know, like, I don't know.
Like, it's just, I don't know.
Like at this point, I don't, I don't put anything past them.
I just think, as I said earlier, you have to factor in their staggering incompetence.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
That's what it'll be.
When we finally get to the bottom of what happened with that video, it'll be somebody palming this job off onto somebody else who was a 17-year-old Doge staffer or something.
Exactly.
Big balls.
It was big balls all along.
Somebody with a broccoli hairdo, you know, straight out of high school who didn't know what to do, who fired up Adobe Premiere or whatever it was and did their best and accidentally created a legend.
Oh my God.
Okay.
I think we're done.
I think we're done.
Yeah.
Well, Jelaine Maxwell's up for parole.
Anyway, it's funny that nobody seems to be asking her any questions.
I think she would have a lot of answers if, you know.
Again, as I say, it's very hard to retain your level head about these things, you know, because she's going to be in a meeting with Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche and not with the lead prosecutor who's just been fired, who was Jim Kobe's daughter.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, it's like the web of intrigue and people get like obsessed with this.
And it's like, yeah, they're all friends because they're a rich, there is a club.
You're not in it.
You know, that's the, that's the, that's the answer to here.
But anyway.
All right.
That'll do.
Enough conspiracies for one night.
Go ahead.
This has been exhausting.
Well, thank you for listening to that.
And we will be back with you with another episode as soon as possible.
And in leaving you, I can only say thank you for your attention to this matter.
Good night.
Bring the good old Yoko boys.
We'll sing another song.
Sing it with a spirit that will part the world along.
Singing as the youth, we'll sing it with the mountain.
While we were marching through dark dust Hurrah, hurrah, we dreamed you'd leave Hurrah, hurrah, the flag made you flee So we banged the forest from the land of Toulousey While we were marching through dark dust You know, Jack, a pal is a wonderful thing.
