At the start of the month, Daniel and Jack co-hosted a Twitter Space hangout with their friend, IDW-gadlfy podcaster Eiynah Mohammed-Smith (@NiceMangos). We had a fun chat about all the silliness that right-wingers had been up to (Jordan weeping over incels to Piers Morgan, Matt Walsh freaking out over crystal flutes, Graham Linehan starting to doubt vaccines and climate change, Peter Thiel's 'Right Stuff' dating app, mermaids of colour, etc) and then took some questions from listeners. Teddy Wilson (@reportbywilson), journalist and researcher and publisher of Radical Reports (@radicalreports) joined us too. Fun start, more serious back half; altogether a fun show that we decided to put up for everyone here. Don't forget to contribute to Eiynah's GoFundMe if you haven't already. Fundraiser by Eiynah Nicemangos : Donate to help Eiynah (gofundme.com)
This is Jack, introducing an edited version of a Twitter space that Aina Mohammed-Smith, at Nice Mangoes on Twitter, behind the Polite Conversations podcast, hosted, I think it was the 1st of October, or it was the 1st of October where I was, anyway, with myself and Daniel as co-hosts.
And we had some guests turn up, Teddy Wilson, Who is at Report by Wilson on Twitter.
Turned up.
He's a journalist and a researcher.
Publishes radical reports.
Really good stuff.
And some listeners joined in to ask us some questions.
I've gone ahead and included their voices and their questions in this on the assumption that they'd be okay with that, given that they knew that the Twitter space was being recorded.
But if the people in question don't like it, then they can contact me and I can take this down and edit it out.
Edit their voices out.
I'm quite happy to do that.
But I kind of just felt safe assuming they'd be OK being included.
So sans all the technical glitches that I cut out, here is that Twitterspace.
Hope you enjoy it.
We had a lot of fun talking about various right-wingers being silly and topical issues.
Well, they were topical then, anyway.
And things got a bit more serious in the back half.
And yeah, it's quite a good show.
Oh yeah, the other thing to say is that, being a Twitter space, don't expect the usual crystal clear IDSG sound quality.
You can cope with that, I'm sure.
Hello everybody!
Thank you so much for coming to our catch-up Twitter space.
It's been a while.
I haven't been online much lately.
I have certainly missed out on a lot of pretty funny right-wing and IDW-type outrages and hate, so I thought it would be good to chat with my two friends over here, Daniel and Jack.
You guys probably all know them from the wonderful I Don't Speak German podcast.
If anyone keeps a good eye on the right and the IDW, it's them.
I'm sure they'll catch me up with what I've missed and we can have some laughs and stuff, which I have desperately needed.
If you've been following my work and have listened to my recent update, you'll know that life has been pretty rough for me lately.
Do have a GoFundMe that you also might be aware of.
It should be linked either to the tweet that is my pinned tweet or it should be my pinned tweet.
But if you go to my pinned tweet, you will find it.
If you would like to contribute, that would be wonderful because we are quite close to hitting the goal and it'd be great if we could.
Anyways, if Of course, if you have no idea what I'm talking about, then you can listen to my most recent episode.
There's a bunch of stuff that I know will be super fun to discuss, I think.
First, we could chat about Peterson crying about being the incel king, or whatever.
I thought that was pretty wonderful.
You guys must have seen this Pierce Morgan, Jordan Peterson, sobbing interview.
I'm going to admit that I saw it sort of like appear on my feed and was like, Oh, Jordan Peterson cried.
Yes.
Uh, that's, that's a dog bites man story for me, you know?
Um, and then you said you were talking about it.
So I went and, you know, watched it and watched Matt Walsh talking about it of all things.
Um, so I am now, I think, and also Sam Cedar's take on it, which was very funny.
So I am now apprised of it.
It does appear that Jordan Peterson has deep, deep feelings about those poor men who just can't get laid because they hang out in the most terrible places on the internet all day instead of doing anything that would actually make them Attractive to the people that they might want to have intimate relations with.
And these are the truly marginalized in society, as Jordan Peterson said.
It was incredible just to watch his expression change in real time because he did not expect Pierce Morgan to do that.
As what did he call them weirdo lonely weirdo men or something and that's when Jordan's face completely changes and it's like Why did you just call these poor, poor men?
And then he starts to sob.
I thought the marginalized were supposed to have a voice!
His face does that toddler thing, doesn't it, where it gradually sort of implodes.
Yeah, yeah.
And, I mean, he does not give a shit about marginalized people having a voice.
And when you say something about incels, that's when his tears come.
Come flowing and that's when he cares about like marginalized people having a voice and it's just you couldn't create a better parody of Peterson than Peterson creates every day.
I see so many things around me now that are suspiciously good parodies, you know, that I do wonder if I'm in a simulation.
Never mind.
There's, like, Jordan Peterson, like, tweeting out pictures saying, it's okay to be a man.
I didn't know there was ever a problem, honestly.
I've been a man for, I mean, you know, at least two or three years now.
And, you know, it's always been fine.
But can wokes really be men?
But, I mean, I did have one Twitter space where some guy came on and, like, just started swearing and saying, like, a slur, and it was extremely weird, so we had to cut him off.
I don't wanna... You're never gonna let me live that down, are you?
You're just gonna go on about that forever.
Sorry, Jack.
I know I shouldn't have embarrassed you like that publicly, but...
I do it one time and suddenly it's my identity.
Especially as you're still grieving, you know, the loss of the Queen.
Oh yes, Her Majesty, yes.
I've just genuflected.
Yeah, so sorry.
Yeah, we're gradually sort of feeling out in this country.
We're feeling out the things that it's now okay to do again, you know.
Can I do this again?
Is it respectful now?
You know, it's very difficult.
It's like walking on eggshells.
From Canada, it has been pretty bizarre because the queuing and like just the endless coverage over here has been wild.
Yeah.
There was, there was 10 days or so where it was just, it was just wall to wall in this country.
Every, like every television channel was pretty much showing the, and most of the coverage, as I said to Daniel on the, on the episode we did about this was just kind of
Empty streets with people standing in them, you know, and eventually a car would start moving very slowly up the street and people with somber expressions would be walking behind it and there'd be loads of people on either side sort of filming it with their camera phones and that was most of it for hours and hours and hours on television and everywhere you went everything, you know, like Tesco, the supermarket, you know, the bags were all black and all It's just, it's just psychotic.
I'm interested in the logistics of this, honestly.
Like, the supermarket bags were black, so did they have, like, a stash of black bags that they were waiting to bring out?
I'm exaggerating.
I'm exaggerating for comic effect, but loads of stuff, like, pictures of the Queen went up everywhere, and every website had a thing at the top saying, oh, sorry about the Queen dying, and, you know, my local shop,
My local shop has a post box outside, you know where you post your mail, as you Americans would say, and somebody had put a sort of knitted crown on the top, I suppose, that had been left over from the Jubilee, and they'd edged it with black silk.
That's what it was like here.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, I saw this montage, too, of, like, different, like, British news presenters just, like, clicking together, talking about the queue, and it was so wild!
Like, there's, like, the queue to end all queues!
And, like, one person said, if someone doesn't want to queue up for this, what does that say about them?
And it's, like, I just...
I cannot understand that.
It says that you're not really patriotic, I suppose, if you don't want to queue for hours and hours and hours to walk past a box.
Wasn't it days too?
Like at some point I heard that people were, I could be mistaken because I've only been like dipping in and out, but I thought that I heard on the news that some people spent like the night
I think some people were in the queue like several nights because the queue was incredibly long it was well I don't even know how long it was but it was very very long and yeah people were in there they were sleeping in the queue and yeah I think so.
I have never wanted to queue for that.
We had one new segment about a guy who brought his mum's ashes with him to the queue so that he could take her ashes past the Queen, you know?
Wow!
This is a very uniquely British thing, I think, that people outside will just not be able to relate to.
You know, like a lot of British things, I don't think it's really uniquely British.
I think we just have our own particularly British way of doing it.
You know, like grotesque servile weirdness towards authority.
I think that's to be found everywhere, but we just have a way of doing it that kind of makes it look really, really boring and weird.
So... I didn't say that, you did.
No, I mean, we're good at it.
It's one of our superpowers.
There is a truth, but yeah, did you come across many people that weren't feeling the same vibe?
Loads, yeah.
Almost, I mean, it says something about, there's a sample bias here, you know, my social circle is what it is, but almost everybody I know was disinterested, I would say.
Not sort of ideologically anti like me, but just kind of not interested.
I think I think the public interest in the Royals really has declined over the years, you know?
Yeah, and that's just modernity, isn't it?
Because how long are we going to hang on to this for, it seems like?
Well, you'd hope, wouldn't you?
But I think other Brits sort of compensate for that by being extra weird about it.
That's very true, yes.
We saw that all the way here in Canada, too.
Yeah, we made a bit of a spectacle of ourselves there for a week or so, but there you go.
In my country, we fought a war over this a couple of centuries ago, so I do not have to give a single solitary shit about it.
That's right.
And I take that as a privilege I will take to my grave, honestly.
Well, I certainly miss the IDW takes about this.
Did you guys catch any interesting ones?
I really haven't seen anything about it.
I mean, I've actually been quite unwell this month with one thing and another.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
No, don't worry about it.
But yeah, so I really have been out of it.
So I haven't been following these people the way I often do.
Yeah, same.
So I guess, Daniel, we have to depend on you to catch us up properly?
Well, that's my usual method, depend upon Daniel to know things.
I haven't been really tracking the IDW much lately because it's all Like, I Brett Weinstein'd myself out and just went, like, I gotta quit this for a while.
I had enough.
It's harder to follow them sometimes than, like, actual Nazis, right?
The white nationalists actually did have, like, there were, like, videos going around of, like, you know, a vigil for the queen or whatever.
And people going, like, it's all white people.
And yet London is 55% non-white, which isn't true, of course.
Oh, was that good?
By any chance.
Yeah.
These are the real Britons, you know.
And the number of, like, sort of, like, normie, you know, sort of, you know, not even, like, Nazi-adjacent, but just sort of conservatives or, you know, sort of the right-of-center liberals in this country who would make sort of, like, at least the intellectual case for, well, sort of the right-of-center liberals in this country who would make sort of, like, at least the intellectual case for, well, the monarchy, you know, just for a reason as this, you know, project in terms
And this is what we need in, like, the Trump, the post-Trump America, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And, like, you know, it's just like, It's just vile.
It's just like, you know, like, I don't know, like, I just, I just look at that stuff and I just kind of feel the bile coming up in my throat and just go like, you know, this is, this is not like you, you are, you know, go lick some more boot.
That's all I have to say about that.
You know, that's all that is.
It's just, I desire to lick boot some more, you know.
We are not authoritarian enough in this country, you know?
Like, you know.
Yeah, you know who would have had a very interesting take on this?
Well, probably very predictable, actually, but Douglas Murray.
I'm sorry I wasn't, like, paying attention to him during this time because I'm sure he would have been saying a lot of things and also probably freaking out about how non-white London is.
Yeah, sure, I'm sure he had.
Extremely normal.
I'm sure he's going to write some, you know, impassioned plea.
about, you know, what the death of the Queen and what, you know, what the dirty leftists trampling on her grave and actually calling out her crimes against humanity, you know, that is ultimately just part of the creation of the new Londonistan and ultimately, you know, a reason for instituting a new fascist government in the UK, you know?
Oh yeah, speaking of fascist governments, The Italy stuff.
Wow.
That's someone who actually has praised Mussolini in the past.
And Dave Rubin has had some takes about saying the left just calls everyone a fascist.
And I think I saw someone tweeted to me a screenshot of one of Sam Harris's like, And it was like a parable tweet that said, it couldn't be any clearer which ideology she is a response to.
That's Georgia Maloney they're referring to.
And I mean, the ideology must be wokeness or wokeism.
And this should be a time for reflection on the far left, but they'll just continue calling everyone bigots and gifting power to national populace and the far right.
And like this is the exact same line that they all took when Trump won in 2016.
It was all the left's fault.
And they just, they don't learn anything.
They don't get tired of that same bullshit line.
Always blame the left for the far right and make excuses for the far right.
Yeah.
Well, that's the job, isn't it?
I mean, uh, Yeah, but like, who keeps falling for this?
It just, it boggles my mind, like, how are people still falling for this shit?
Like, oh, so-and-so country elected a fascist, that's because so-and-so, that's because the wokes called people racist, and people's had problems with racist Halloween costumes or blackface, and that's why this is happening.
You know, this really does interest me because it's kind of a futile thing to think about inherently, but I really do have this interest in the question of to what extent do people believe what they say, and to what extent is it cynicism?
And sort of the cop-out answer I always give in lieu of really coming to a conclusion is that they're kind of two aspects of the same thing.
But you ask, why do people fall for this?
And, I mean, I wonder if they really do?
Like, I'm not doing that thing where, oh, surely people can't really believe this, that certain people do, you know, they hear outrageous right-wing opinions and they kind of reject the premise of anybody actually believing them.
No, I think people believe them in that sense, that they're prepared to act upon them, you know.
But in a sort of deeper sense, like, I mean, Sam Harris has actually written about this, interestingly, hasn't he?
About the nature of belief.
What does belief practically mean for people on a day-to-day?
Well, I really doubt that for a lot of people, most of the time, it means I actually think this thing is empirically, objectively true outside my head.
I think millions of people act upon Their working definition, their active definition of belief is, this makes me feel good, this makes sense to me, this makes the world make sense to me emotionally and intuitively.
You've sort of triggered me on this.
Why do people fall for this?
I kind of wonder if they actually do fall for it in the sense of believing the empirical claim, rather than sort of... I mean, really the job of people like this, you know, the Matt Walshers of the world and all these people, is to just repeat the same thing over and over again.
And the people they say it to, their job is kind of just to consume it over and over again, because the real aim is always to Well, it's to attack the left and it's to attack the oppressed and anybody that's trying to change the world.
And that's the real aim.
And kind of like this game of, here's a claim about why this thing happened.
Oh yes, I believe that.
That's just, to me, I think a lot of the time that's just like a language game, you know?
And what's actually being circulated between those two nodes is kind of an agreement upon Yeah, absolutely.
I think you're spot on when you talk about belief not being like the literal thing that we might think it is.
It's like, yes, this is what feels right to me.
This is what makes me feel good.
Even in terms of, like, religious belief, that's why I never quite got behind, like, the new atheist idea of jihadists needing to 100% believe in this magical afterlife.
Like, I don't think that's how it works all the time at all.
I think people are motivated by different factors, sometimes by poverty or just, you know, Like, the 9-11 guys went to strip club.
Doesn't mean that they weren't dedicated to their religion, it just means that they're human beings and they don't work in a linear manner.
Yeah, belief and including religious belief is something that people produce and it's a way of understanding the world and organizing their own conduct and organizing the way the world makes sense to them and I think that's, I mean I think we've talked about this before, we know sociologically that the model that you get from the new atheists from Sam Harris etc.
of I believe I will get 72 virgins ergo I will be a suicide bomber That's just not true.
You know, it's a hell of a lot more complicated and historically and socially embedded than that.
And I think it's sort of a similar thing going on with this endless roundelay of right-wing propaganda.
As I say, I don't think it's really about making factual claims and getting other people to believe those factual claims.
To me it's like an endless sort of circle jerk of reassurance.
I hate those people.
Do you hate those people?
Yeah, I hate those people too.
Yeah, we all hate those.
It's like that going round and round and round and round.
That's so true.
I mean, when Dave Rubin just started, I was like, okay, how many episodes can he possibly sell just going on and on and on about the regressive left, the regressive left, the regressive left?
I was like, people are, even the most idiotic people are going to get sick of this.
But no, they really, like, he just got bigger and bigger and bigger.
Yeah.
They just want more and more and more forever.
More of that circle jerk.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Don't you hate the woke?
Yes, I hate the wokes.
And yeah, just amazing how much capacity to hear it again and again humans have.
Yeah, and I mean, their whole I mean, that's kind of the point of the whole like, YouTube, you know, kind of anti-woke ecosystem at this point is that they're just they just produce enough content That you never have to ever leave that, you know, and they all, that's why they all interview each other and just repeat the same talking points.
It's all just a matter of like, sort of filling people's brains with this, with this thing.
And it's like, the thing that gets to me is that like the civility porn element of it, you know, you know, well, we are the ones having a real conversation about these issues.
And we are the ones having, you know, really kind of going boldly into You know, that dark night of, you know, like actually examining our premises and subjecting these things to critical thinking.
And yet they have no actual understanding of any of the things that they even begin to understand.
I listened to an episode of the podcast The Fifth Column, and this is sort of a libertarian-ish podcast.
It's, you know, it's anti-woke.
It doesn't really exist in this heterodox space, but it rhymes with some of the heterodox space, kind of the IDW space.
But this was actually a conversation, like an interview, like a debate between Thomas Chatterson Williams and Adam Davidson.
And if you know Thomas Chatterson Williams, he's, you know, sort of the, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess, you know, tell us who he is, just so I can take a breather for a second.
I guess I would describe him as a Quillette, John Porter type of guy that all these IDW types really love because they get to say the race stuff around him.
He nods along and says, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
See, I'm so intellectually honest that I don't shy away from that.
I don't know if that's detailed enough.
And very notably, he is an African American man.
So, you know, like that's that's essential to, you know, like his appeal, I think, for for the audience.
But he was in this debate or, you know, the pseudo debate with Adam Davidson.
And now Adam Davidson is probably not a name that many people listen to this or necessarily familiar with.
But he was a reporter for years and he was a reporter for years and years.
He was one of the co-founders of the NPR series.
Planet money.
And, um, let me be clear.
Adam Davidson is not someone who's going to agree with my politics.
Um, but, uh, as someone who like covered wall street for like seven years for NPR.
He has a thorough understanding of exactly how terrible, you know, uh, the finance industry is.
And, uh, you know, he is aware of some of the, like, uh, the things that actually control our society.
Um, he did bring a very like progressive liberal standpoint onto these issues and, uh, is, you know, from what I understand, a very good reporter.
Um, well, he had a tweet that kind of went semi-viral in which he's like, you know, a very simple tweet that's to the effect of, look, If you're white, you have an enormous amount of privilege, and then space, space.
It's really, really obvious, you know?
Something to that effect.
And this became this, like, shitstorm among this kind of, like, right-wing heterodox sphere.
And he was invited on to... You just called him right-wing?
I can't believe that!
He was invited onto this podcast and they have this long thing of, like, this is one of the best conversations we've ever had on this topic, and isn't it amazing that we actually really drilled into, like, the details.
And I listened to it and it's like, I mean, Adam Davis said that's fine, you know, in the sense that, like, he's a middle-aged white liberal who's doing the thing that middle-aged white liberal men are going to do.
But, like, there's nothing, like, there's still no, like, real examination of, like, systemic problems.
And he doesn't challenge at all, like, when Williams is like, well, I just want to be judged as an individual.
And I just think that, like, if we're not judging people as individuals, and it's just like, shut the fuck up everybody involved in this conversation.
If you're not actually going to talk about the systemic problems, I don't know why we're doing this.
And I guess the reason I'm bringing it up is just because it's like, it's just so endemic to this that even the slightest bit of pushback that Adam Davidson gives is like this you know, scathing critique for these guys, you know, this like absolute, like, you know, he really pushed back hard.
He asked two questions, you know, I mean, and it's like, you know, there's just no challenging of anything with these guys like ever.
And then they congratulate themselves for having the difficult conversations, as you were saying earlier.
Yep.
But one thing I did remember about Thomas Chatterton Williams, I believe he was a guy that was in a chateau in France.
And then did he kick his friend out for not liking Barry White's?
Am I getting this story completely wrong?
I remember something about that.
I'm not, please, the number of people listening to this, do not quote either of us on this, but yes, that does sound That does sound familiar.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, I could be getting the details completely twisted, but I do remember there was a Chateau and mention of Barry White and then being met or yeah, being angry at someone for not liking Barry White.
I don't know.
It was a while ago.
You know how fast these stories change, like there's so many of them and then you forget the details.
It's hard to keep them separate in your mind because they're all so similar and they just blur into one.
I can relate to this, definitely, because, you know, whether or not you like Barry Weiss is definitely a litmus test that I use for people, whether I want to be their friends or not.
Do you kick them out of your French Chateau?
I'm constantly kicking people out of my French Chateau.
Fair enough!
Just to be clear about how terrible Barry Weiss is these days, her most recent podcast episode, which I listened to this afternoon, was You know, the Indigenous Graves in Canada story, total hoax.
Didn't exist.
They're all in that same line.
It's like Barry Weiss, Lauren Southern, you know, peas in a pod, ultimately.
Yeah, exactly.
And like, she's pretty fucking extreme.
Like, she thinks Chris Rufo is a regular, normal person to get reliable information from.
Anyone that thinks that is not A rational, regular person.
Or it's just a political opportunist, which kind of goes back to the thing of, you know, ultimately, you know, does Mary Weiss actually believe this?
Well, her paycheck is kind of relying on her believing it.
Yeah, yeah.
She really does strike me as the, sort of, along the same lines as Rubin, you know, as being influenced by, almost behavioristically, by the the love bombing and the clicks and the approbation and of course the money that she gets from going in certain directions and, and just obeying that and not others.
I think that's probably how, how she works.
And I think she's probably convincing herself of what she, again, she's convincing herself of what she needs to be convinced of in order to, in order to make this career path work.
You know, that's how I read her.
I mean, she's one of those who is just so like obsessively avoiding the real topic and like her, her coverage is so obviously planted and so obviously, you know, like you see exactly where the details that you know, like you see exactly where the details that she's omitting would have changed her entire narrative.
And she so deftly avoids those things that you really just can't get beyond believing that like, you know, she, she knows what she's doing, at least even if she believes every word that she says.
And she believes in the message she's sending.
It's absolutely a manipulated bit of propaganda, and that's what's fascinating to me, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I agree, but I'm going to sort of argue against my own point now, and, you know, argue in reverse, but the faithful do that.
The true believers do that.
They develop the ways in which to argue dishonestly in order to get across what they know to be the deeper truth.
Yeah.
Well, that's kind of what apologetics is, you know, in some sense, right?
You know, it is like just finding, at least in this kind of popular Protestant conception, you know, in the Southern Baptist Convention or whatever it is, you know, all you have to do is you have to know, like, the two talking points that will, like, totally shut down that atheist, that evolutionist.
You know, and then you can go about the rest of your day, you know, and you don't have to know any of the details, and you don't have to care, you know, and, uh, yeah.
Oh, have I been watching some Answers in Genesis videos lately?
Yes, yes I have.
We have a collaboration forthcoming with the Christian Right cast.
We've actually recorded it a while ago now and it hasn't come out yet, but we did an episode with Jeff and Kristen about creationism, you know, and stuff like that.
How fun!
Like, old school.
I have not, like, talked about creationism or talked about owning creationism in quite a few years, so that's fun.
That's very much Daniel's start, so...
I regret to inform you that they have improved greatly on their optics and their aesthetics, but have moved not a single fucking millimeter in terms of actually developing any further ideologically or rhetorically.
It's the exact same bullshit that I was dealing with in like 2004.
No question.
Yeah, not surprised to hear that.
The Dave Rubin thing, how you said that Barry Weiss has a little bit of Rubin in there.
I think honestly, the whole IDW is just like different shades of Rubin.
Absolutely the same thing, just in less obvious degrees, you know?
Yeah, 50 Shades of Rubin, yeah.
Absolutely!
It's like, some people prefer their Rubinism to be, like, less obvious, so then they prefer the Sam Harris's, but some people want, like, the very obvious Rubin.
Rubinism, and so then they go straight to the original source, right?
But it's all the same shit, just with different packaging, perhaps.
So it's funny to me that they actually don't get along as much anymore because, I guess because of Trump and COVID, two main issues in their little group there.
Was Rubin kind of like a Provax at all, or did I miss that?
No, but when he was like, you know, Oh, I'm an atheist, I'm rational, like science.
And then he turned on that.
What I was referring to was the, um, right winger pretending to be not a right winger grift.
Right.
Oh yeah, no, that makes sense.
You know, um, That thing is like something that runs through the whole IDW.
Like every single one of them.
I mean, on that note, James Lindsay is now openly doing events with Charlie Kirk.
They did a panel together.
I think Jack tweeted this poster, was it today?
Of some anti-globalist puppetry.
Some super anti-Semitic looking poster where James Lindsay and Steve Bannon are speakers.
And of course, anyone that followed the whole Mergegate thing, absolutely no merging happening here between Atheist and The Far Right.
I keep being proven so wrong about that, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
No merge with The Far Right.
No merge, no merge.
Except that, yeah, except that there's James Lindsay going to speak at a conference.
It's literally, I mean, the actual title is The Globalists, who they are and how they run the world or something.
And it's promotional emblem is like this gigantic hand, you know, with one of those puppet frame things.
It is so blatant, you know.
It looked very blatant.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, this is, and a lot of people are like going like, oh, well, this is just, this is pure Nazi shit.
And I'm not saying it's not fascist, but it's pure Nazi shit.
But like, I think the more clear, you know, through line is to like the, uh, the nineties anti new world order, you know, punch the blue helmets, you know, sort of anti-UN patriot crowd.
Um, which, um, you know, again, for the purposes of this conversation, I think you're absolutely right, Daniel.
I just think it's a sign.
Well, it's that word again, isn't it?
It's merging.
And this feels very much like a revival and a repopularization of like the worst of the elements that led to Timothy McVeigh, for instance.
I think you're absolutely right, Daniel.
I just think it's a sign.
Well, it's that word again, isn't it?
It's that merging.
It's the merging.
It's all these different threads coming together, you know, taking what works from this previous thing and what works on that previous thing.
And always at the core of it, there's the same fucking poison.
Yeah, agreed.
I mean, again, I'm not trying to say this is not anti-Semitic in any sense, don't don't get me wrong, but it's not, it's not explicitly anti-Semitic in the way that, like, you know, the Daily Shoah is explicitly anti-Semitic, for instance.
Right, on the obvious surface level stuff.
Yeah, it's not Nazi in that sense, no.
But it's got Nazi inside of it, we could say, maybe.
Yeah, I mean, it's Bircher shit.
It's Bircher shit.
And one of the things that, like, the Birchers were known for was, like, you know, King Atheists plus anti-Semites.
Not because, you know, they were not anti-Semitic, but because it looked bad, you know?
Like, that was just part of the thing.
That's what the Birchers were doing, you know?
Yeah.
Which is to say that if, you know, the explicit Nazis actually do make, you know, anti-Semitism like explicit anti-Semitism more okay in five or six years, you will absolutely see, you know, Kevin MacDonald as a featured speaker at one of these things, standing right next to James Lindsay.
It will definitely happen.
And you'll see Dave Rubin supporting that shit.
And you'll see Dave Rubin kind of going like, well, look, I don't necessarily agree with Kevin McDonald's thesis about the nature of the Jewish people, the nature of the Jewish race, to subvert societies that they live within as part of a group evolutionary strategy.
But I think he has a right to his opinion.
I think if you want to shut him down, you need to have a debate with him.
And that's why I support him being on the stage, etc, etc, etc.
Like, it's exactly what's gonna happen.
I mean, just look at how far we've moved since 2016!
Yeah, I mean... Yeah!
Did you see Dave Rubin's conversation with Jordan Peterson, where Peterson was talking to him about, like, parenting as a gay person, and how, like, that's not the ideal, and, like, being a straight heterosexual parent should be the ideal for every couple and a straight monogamous heterosexual couple yeah
and like it was so cringe like i felt so much secondhand embarrassment just watching that the way dave rubin was like a total doormat and the things that peterson was saying like oh painful painful to watch when when dave rubin is the better man in the conversation you know - No.
When Dave Rubin is the one you have sympathy for, you know things have gotten real bad.
They've gotten really, really bad.
Yeah, for sure.
So, I was more nauseated by Rubin than, say, feeling sorry for him, because he was just, like, laying down.
Like, I think there was even a point where he compared, like, well, hey, you know, not all parents are perfect.
Yeah, like, some of them are gay, some of them are addicts, like, Don't quote me on that exact sentence happening that way, but that was the gist of what he was saying.
Like, he was comparing bad parenting and, like, parents that are drug addicts, and then he brought up, like, and then there's gay parents.
So, like, not everyone's a perfect heterosexual parent, you know?
We've got both kinds of bad parents here.
Those who are in loving homosexual relationships, And those who are like desperate heroin addicts beating their children, you know, both bad, not saying equally bad, just saying bad, just bad, you know, like, you know, things, things are, you know, it's a thing, you know, some people occasionally run a stoplight and some people commit mass murder.
These things are both bad, both need to be addressed by society, ultimately, if we're going to have a healthy way of living.
Yeah, clearly.
There cannot be a more spineless person than Dave Rubin.
I keep wondering what point he's going to finally stand up for himself, and it doesn't come.
It does not come.
Your desire to continue to pursue Dave Rubin is astounding.
It's actually It's actually, it gives me hope for, like, society, honestly, because he's so far gone as far as I'm concerned, and you just keep following him, and you keep talking about him, like, but Dave Rubin, and I'm like, the last time Dave Rubin was relevant to me was, like, 2016, maybe, you know?
Like, I included a clip of him talking to Steven Stefan Molyneux, in an episode I recorded in 2019.
And that's like literally the last time that Dave Rubin impinged on my consciousness is that's when Michael Brooks or you make fun of him, you know, like that's it, you know?
I feel like, I feel like it's those of us.
Yeah, he is a spectacle, but I feel like it's those of us who kind of keep on watching him that are desperately searching for hope, you know?
Because we kind of, I think we feel there must be a bottom to this, there must be an end point, there must be a point at which even this man says, hang on a minute, and you know, we're waiting for, we're waiting to find it, whereupon we can kind of jump up and down and say, there is some hope for humanity!
I mean I'm either waiting to see if he finally stands up for himself or if he like says okay well I'm going to try and be straight now like in a Milo way and either way it's it's gonna be something that Yeah, something that won't be boring to watch, but sad and cringe, certainly.
We had a few things to possibly talk about.
I mean, we've talked a little bit about Jordan Peterson crying over the incels.
One of the things you wanted to talk about, Daniel, was it the Right Stuff dating app?
Yeah.
So, um, and the fun thing is that anytime anything with the right stuff in it, I get tagged, you know, because like, Oh, is this named after, is this named after the right stuff?
Is this named after the Daily Show boys?
And it's like, yeah, this is Peter Thiel's like thing.
And the right stuff is a generic enough name.
I mean, maybe in the back of his head, he's like trying to like steal SEO away from a site that's basically Shadowbanned from Google, but that seems unlikely to me.
You know, I think that this is, uh, just sort of like, you know, if you're going to name your, your, your, your all Republican dating app, something, then calling it the right stuff is like the, it's the most obvious thing you could possibly name it outside of like, you know, the salt mine or something.
Um,
Yeah, but like I watched the like ad and the like the little ad that was that was going around and it's literally like a group of women who are very deliberately chosen to be of, you know, various, uh, you know, conventionally attractive, but, you know, not, we're not talking about sort of like the Fox blonde bombshell, you know, like Megyn Kelly type, you know, that's not, that's not the person is in, but, you know, of, of, you know, they're mostly white, but there are a couple of people of color kind of standing there.
But they are all like explicitly, not even right wing, but explicitly Republican, you know?
And they're literally like, you know, what do you want in a man?
It's like, I just kind of like the alpha male type, you know?
And what we know from dating sites in general is that they are overwhelmingly, you know, it's a sausage fest.
I apologize.
I don't want to be essentialist in terms of gender roles, that sort of thing.
But, uh, you know, It is, it is overwhelmingly cis dudes who, you know, exist on the egg sites.
And, uh, every cis woman who is interested in a cis man, or even if not interested in a cis man, gets a thousand times the requests that she could ever possibly respond to.
So, uh, you know, um, that gets even worse.
if you remember the Ashley Madison saga, Ashley Madison was- - Oh my God, I remember that. - Effectively, it's- - Like a week or something? - What if you wanna cheat on your wife?
That's essentially what, you know, Ashley Madison was.
And it was eventually revealed that not only were the numbers skewed in like a hundred to one direction, but that most of that one direction was just bots and like employees of Ashley Madison Creating attention and giving these guys hope, ultimately, to strangle along in terms of continuing to pay their monthly fee.
And that it is entirely possible, based on the data that was leaked, that there was never a single actual, like, paid user who was a cis woman on Ashley Madison.
And if anything, I think the right stuff is going to be even worse.
It's literally just going to be a bunch of dudes in MAGA caps.
Like, you know, uh, you know, sorry, I was going to get dirty there, but like, let's not, let's not, let's keep this vaguely clean.
Are you going to make a, like a, an account on there?
Just for fun?
Well, I'm, I'm not going to say I'm not going to make an account.
You know, you may, you may, if you're on the right stuff, uh, dating, dating app, you may start flirting with that like cute MAGA type, uh, blonde girl.
And I'm just going to say, reverse image search that image on the profile page.
Because you might be talking to me, and I might be archiving it all.
But we'll see.
We'll see.
Well, that's how we met, so you never know.
You might get a new podcast out of it.
So, anyway, I just found that whole thing really amusing, honestly, and it's just, it's just like, whenever these things happen, it's just, I don't know, it's always, it's always just silly.
Right-wing dating apps or dating sites are always hilarious to me, and I remember that when Chris Cantwell, the crying Nazi, ...was booted off of... Hold on, hold on.
Who?
You need to tell me who this guy is.
I'm not familiar.
Cantwell News!
Cantwell News!
Ah, yeah.
You know, Daniel, you're just going to have to read up on this guy called Chris Cantwell.
I don't seem to update you all the time.
Just look up The Crying Nazi, alright?
Yeah, yeah, no, I'll... I'll have to see.
Is there a video I can watch, maybe?
I don't know.
Sorry, I didn't mean to... I can recommend a podcast.
Okay.
Didn't mean to derail.
Just had to tell the joke.
Please continue.
Yeah.
When Chris Cantwell was booted off of OK Cupid, I believe it was, because they found out he was like a violent Nazi.
And there was this one IDW guy, actually probably a lot more people know him now than they did back in that time, and that is Josh Zeps.
He is the guy that went on Rogan and Like kind of pushed back on the myocarditis stuff.
And even though he's totally in the Rogan IDW camp, people suddenly thought he was this great guy for like pushing back, but that wasn't the situation at all.
Anyways, Josh Sepps, he was so mad.
He was so upset when Chris Cantwell was taken off a dating site.
Like, there's no fucking consequence For even the worst racist bigot that these heterodox IDW types can can tolerate like nothing.
This is the most minimal thing that could have happened to Chris Cantwell for being a violent Nazi.
And why should any dating site entertain someone that has violent tendencies and extremist beliefs and endanger their clientele?
Why should they?
But Dosh Zap tweeted something like, oh, you know, this is just like, I don't know, moral circle jerking or something.
I don't know, it was a few years ago, so don't quote me on this exact, on the exact words, but the gist of it was that even assholes deserve to get laid.
And actually, funnily, that's very similar to Jordan Peterson crying about incels being marginalized.
I was going to say, I can hear Jordan's tears from here.
Just to be clear about this... By the way, just parenthetically, assholes do not deserve to get laid.
Nobody deserves to get laid, but assholes especially do not.
Especially Nazi assholes.
I just wanted to put that out there.
Especially violent Nazi assholes.
Yeah, in the immediate aftermath of, like, the Vice documentary, in which Chris Cantwell is, like, front and center going, we're trying to make ourselves more violent.
We're going to kill these people if they make us, you know?
Like, he made himself the most famous Nazi in America for, like, oh, two weeks, and therefore, yes, yeah, people don't associate with you, you know?
One of the ironies there was... That's actually completely reasonable, you know?
Yeah, totally.
And one of the ironies there is that, you know, one of the ways in which he set about making himself one of the most famous Nazi in America was being the subject of a documentary.
And he spent the entire documentary trying to flirt with the host of the documentary, whose name I can't remember.
The Vice documentary.
El Reeve, El Reeve.
El Reeve, that's right.
Yeah, no, no.
I mean, there's like, you know, off-camera audio where he recorded everything on his own, like, audio clip.
And there is, you know, when they weren't recording or when they weren't, you know, something didn't end up in the documentary in which he, like, literally, like, asked her out for a drink sometime.
Oh, really?
I did not know that.
Oh, yeah.
It's creepy as fuck.
He released that full audio to his He released that full audio to his podcast feed, uh, you know, right before he turned himself into GL.
The first time, you know, well, not the first time because he originally went into GL when he was like 17 years old or something over like pot charges or whatever.
But, um, you know, like four events that happened at Unite the Right.
Uh, anyway, yes, we don't have to turn this into the Cantwell Hour because believe me, I could fill this.
I could fill the Cantwell Hour very easily.
With anecdotes, but yeah, I know.
I have an archive link to his OkCupid profile, and when I tell you that it reads exactly like the intros that he would do for his Nazi podcast, I mean it literally.
It's in the same voice.
It is the same person.
See, and you were telling me that it was amazing that I follow Dave Rubin.
Right.
You follow Chris Cantwell very, very closely.
Well, he's gonna get out of prison here in a couple of months, so I have to be abreast of his legal filings, you know?
He finally got a typewriter wheel.
That was a big moment.
I don't have to read his shitty handwriting anymore, so you know.
Oh, what else did I miss?
Oh, oh, and there was also this fantastic clip of Sam Harris confirming every right-wing conspiracy theory about the Democrats stealing the election from Donald Trump.
And then he was trying to walk it back and be gentle with the right-wingers that were so mad with him.
That was really something.
I mean, I just rewatched the clip right before this, so it was fresh in my mind, and he was like, I wouldn't have cared if Hunter had corpses of children in his basement!
Good job, Sam!
And then he was like, absolutely.
It was a left-wing conspiracy to deny the presidency to Trump.
But I think it was warranted.
So, I mean, of course, Jack Kosobiec was pissed.
Fox News was raging.
I think they even tweeted like, Sam Harris, Poland.
There was a conspiracy to deny the presidency to Donald Trump.
Like, I mean, what did that achieve?
That was like the Thomas way to push back on the right, like trust Harris to do that.
Oh, I would like to just note that this was on the podcast.
It's such a brilliant trigonometry, trigonometry, trigonometry.
Yeah.
Which I know that you're aware of this and you can disagree with me on this, but if you're talking to the trigonometry dipshit, You are scraping the barrel.
You're not in the bottom of the barrel.
You're digging into the wood in the bottom of the barrel if you're caring what these people have to say.
This is just absolutely insufferable content.
The name alone should be in it.
It's almost as if the content is even worse than the name.
It's so awful.
It's so like the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen.
And Sam Harris, like to his, to his credit, I don't like to give him credit, but he says what he has always said in every conversation he's ever had about Donald Trump.
And that is like, he doesn't really talk about Donald Trump's like policies or that he's a racist or a fascist.
Like he believes that Donald Trump is a racist.
He doesn't say fascist, but he believes that Donald Trump is.
Well, Donald Trump is rude in ways that are discomforting to me.
Donald Trump, you know, doesn't obey the rules of how we're supposed to abide our political life in the society, etc, etc.
Well, Donald Trump is rude in ways that are discomforting to me.
Donald Trump doesn't obey the rules of how we're supposed to abide our political life in the society, etc., etc.
And therefore, he thinks of him as the most terrible person who could possibly be a U.S. president.
And so when he says, well, Joe Biden could have the bodies of dead children in his basement, and actually that's better than Donald Trump being president, that's what he legitimately believes.
That's not him being itchy at that point.
But there's an argument to be made there, but at least you have to acknowledge the realities of what Trump is doing.
And the fact that Sam Harris has just completely lost the path in terms of, you know, like, his anti-woke, you know, reflex, his anti, you know, anti-Trump kind of reflex just does not allow him to understand what people's actual criticisms are of this, you know, whole thing.
Like, I mean, it is like a moat in your eye, you know, the moat versus beam kind of concept kind of comes to mind with this, is that, you know, Sam Harris, you know, not wrong, Donald Trump should not be president of the United States right now, but Sam Harris refuses to find any actual, like, comprehensible reason for that, as far as I'm concerned.
It all tracks back to the fundamental truth about Sam Harris, which is that he is a reactionary who thinks he's a centrist.
So, you know, the world is replete with specimens like that, of course, because we live in a world that generates that, because we live in a world where the centre is actually quite, in objective political terms, the centre is actually quite far to the right.
You know, the reality of our world is the opposite of that cartoon that Elon Musk tweeted.
it's actually going the other way.
So it generates these people like fucking lice. - Especially in America. - Yeah, probably, I dare say.
But Sam Harris, he's one of these people that's actually a reactionary conservative who thinks he's a centrist.
So he thinks of himself as being this guy who hates the extremes.
But his instinct as a reactionary conservative is always to attack the left.
So it's like it's like he just can't help reverting to true, you know, even as he's in the protest process of attacking the far right, you know, Trump or whatever, he doesn't really have
a real political understanding of what the problem is with Trump because on some fundamental level he doesn't he doesn't actually think that the things that we would think of as the political problems with Trump are political problems so he focuses on things like he's unstable and etc you know he conforms to the he conforms to what Caleb Maupin said which is that they don't like him because he said rude words you know he actually does that and he so he runs out of steam and he just reverts to true as I say which is attacking the left
But the, I mean, I cannot get my head around how he got to, like, you know, children's bodies in the cellar.
That's just.
I mean, he also operates in this kind of vacuum where he doesn't think about what he's saying and what the climate is in which he's saying it just in the same way that he wrote in defense of torture article.
He didn't consider the climate then.
And even now, like with Pizzagate and things like that, like what do you think the effect of saying, well, yeah, it is a left wing conspiracy and I think it was warranted.
Like that is you understood like he should understand how dangerous that is.
Yeah we are, you know, Western culture is, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it's in a crisis with right-wing conspiracy, right-wing extremism and conspiracist right-wing extremism and you talk like that you're literally just adding fuel to the fire.
Exactly.
As you say, he's always done this.
He's always had this context blindness, and it comes fundamentally from a social blindness that comes from the fact that he is a profoundly idealist thinker.
You know, idealist in the philosophical sense of just being off in, you know, everything with him is just this abstract game of categories.
I think that's how he falls into these mistakes over and over again.
Yeah, and I mean, So many people have come after me, like whenever I've written in an article or said on a podcast episode that Sam is not that politically opposed to Trump.
Like, it's not his policies that he's upset about.
It's all this other stuff, like Trump being unstable, as you said, like an unpredictable deflating balloon a rhinoceros it's not his politics and he himself very kindly confirmed that I believe it was in this trigonometry interview that he did say that it's not he's he's even he even agrees with his politics and you know that was just so good to see because like it's right there I've been saying that for years and people would be like You don't know what you're talking about!
Sam Harris, he's Trump's biggest critic.
Of course he's not on the same side as him politically.
Whenever I say Sam, it's pretty right-wing.
That's what people always say.
Like, he's Trump's biggest critic.
I'm like, yes, I'm aware of all his superficial, shallow criticisms of Trump.
He finds him an uncouth, rude person that is just not doing things in the proper intellectual way that he would like them done, but it's not his politics that he disagrees with!
That's like calling Stephen Colbert Trump's greatest critic, you know?
Because night after night he takes the piss out of the fact that he's got silly hair and he's fat.
I would say it's even worse because Sam Harris aligns probably more with Trump politically.
Oh yeah, yeah.
I was just remarking on how facile the criticism is.
I'm just going to throw it in here that the white nationalist community in the United States broke bread with Trump in 2018-2019.
Do you mean the fringe of the fringe of the fringe of the fringe?
Yeah, well, what I mean is the people that I track, the people who will be explicitly Nazi, they explicitly went nationalist.
The ones that don't listen to Daniel, as Sam Harris said.
Well, they are much greater critics of Donald Trump than Sam Harris is.
They despise everything that man says because they think he is Too aligned with Jews, just to be clear.
Like, I don't agree with their criticisms, but, you know, when Sam Harris is talking about, well, I am Trump's greatest critic, it's like, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe you should listen to someone, you know, who isn't invited to your dinner table sometimes.
Well, if someone is critical of Trump, they simply cannot be right-wing.
That's what I've heard.
So the Nazis you speak of, they must not be right-wing at all.
Yeah, I can see how these people are Sam's fans to start with, really.
Yeah, he's always so surprised at how many extremely right-wing people he has in his audience, and he was so caught off guard, I think, when he thought he was in like a friendly, safe space talking about this, even though he knows that he disagrees with much of his audience about Trump.
I don't think he expected the pushback or the quote-unquote cancelling that he got from the right because he hasn't really received that to that extent till now.
His friction has only been with the left on this.
Yeah, another thing, I don't really know if I have anything to say about this particularly, but the The recent interview Graham Linehan did where he's now talking about, well, I'm starting to doubt, you know, COVID and vaccines and I'm starting to doubt climate change now.
I don't know that.
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
I don't really know that I have anything to say about that apart from how fucking inevitable was that, you know, given that he's just hurled himself bodily, full-frontally into this rabbit hole.
But yeah, that's where Glinner is getting to now.
Vaccine scepticism and maybe climate change isn't real.
So that's where...
That's where the transphobia obsession leads you, kids.
Don't do transphobia.
Yeah, I mean, I just saw briefly today this, like, character that has been released in British libraries, I think, and so many people are so mad about it!
It's so ridiculous!
Who cares?
Maya Forrester is on day three of this, by the way.
And she is just trying to post through it.
It is really awesome.
It is a sight to behold.
I think there were some tweets about, where are this child's parents?
And did, was this child, was this creature formed from an, like, did it hatch out of an egg?
I don't know if that was like, was that a real tweet?
Like, was it that ridiculous?
They're all real tweets.
Yes, it is actually ridiculous.
Yeah.
Does she really want to know?
fictional alien character, like whether it was birthed from a mother or not?
Like, what?
This is this is this is the new Tinky Winky is gay, Jerry Falwell argument.
Yeah, I mean, this is, it is literally that ridiculous.
I am.
It's just, I don't know, like, what do you even say about this?
What do you say about this?
Like, you know, it's like, if it was just one tweet, you could sort of get it as a You know, oh this is like indoctrination of children that they're like producing this thing of like there's a character using they them and it just encourages them it encourages children to see sex as something non-binary yada yada yada but then to get into like you know well how is this biology created we don't even know and her whole argument is that
Essentially, that it just normalizes the sort of, like, pronoun checks, essentially.
It just validates this sort of idea that, you know, maybe there are people who don't use he, she, or, you know, maybe you have other pronouns available.
And that's fine, which is exactly what it's doing, you know?
Like, she's not wrong, but then to go down that whole rabbit hole of, you know, like, it would actually be more respectful to just call them groomers at this point, you know?
Like, rather than to, like, pretend that there's some, like, ideological, intellectual, biological justification for this.
No, no, you're just, You're just calling them groomers, and it's not that I think they should do this, but it's more honest, right?
And that's the thing that kind of gets me about a lot of this stuff, is like, just say what you mean, and let's call you a bigot and move on, you know?
Yeah, well, that's the whole thing with the IDW too, right?
It's like the slimy dishonesty that really gets you, because, you know, almost Tucker Carlson is more honest.
about what he is and what his views are.
He doesn't try to sugarcoat them and pretend that he's not right-wing or whatever.
That's the bit that infuriates me.
I mean, I'm going to tell you that some of those gender-critical quote-unquote feminists, they're just as terrible as the Nazis.
No questions asked.
I mean, I follow Helen Joyce on Twitter.
And like, routinely, she will say shit that just takes my fucking breath away.
Like, it is, I mean, just vile, vile stuff.
And, um, you know, it's just, it's just, I mean...
My heart bleeds for, like, trans people who have to deal with this shit.
Like, it's like a personal attack.
Because me, I am far away from this, obviously, and so I get to kind of treat this as sort of an intellectual exercise.
But, like, I am... I'm just... I don't understand how any trans person stays on Twitter at all anymore.
It's just vile.
It's just disgusting stuff.
And for me, it's, like, very sad to see all, like, the ex-Muslims that I used to go and chat with a few years ago have all gone down this extremely turfy road.
No exceptions almost.
It's very sad.
It really seemed, turfism really seems to be a gateway drug towards ever, ever more extreme right-wing politics for a certain type of, for particularly a certain type of British woman, you know, but it seemed, Obviously it's not just British women, but it seems to work particularly well for a certain type.
And it is astounding watching the rapidity with which they spiral towards Daniel says staggeringly outrageous.
I mean, to give the devil her due, right?
She's not actually saying, before Stata, about this cartoon character, she's not actually saying, you know, we should have detailed information about
uh you know the the the biological process whereby a a fictional cartoon character came from for children otherwise you know but it's it's hard to know I don't she's not saying that but it's hard to know what she is saying if she's not saying that because what is what is the alternative what is the alternative to just having the character there I mean you know since time immemorial people have been inventing children's characters cartoon literature whatever who are just there like Rupert Bear's just there we don't know his family
Background, you know, we don't know the circumstances under which Morph was... I mean, I'm probably too old, people won't recognize Morph, but when I was a kid there was a character on TV who was like a plasticine man called Morph, and at no time was I informed by the TV show he was on.
Tony Hart never said, Jack, Morph came about through heterosexual, cisgendered, Biological, you know, so it really is just about, it's finding a rationale, I think, for obsession.
You see this with these people, with the gender criticals, they just get obsessed with it.
Maya Forstater really is just, she's an obsessional case, and I think she's rationalizing like crazy, and as Daniel says, posting through it, but It's quite a sight to behold.
As Daniel said, you know, I'm not involved in it myself personally.
I have the luxury of sort of standing back and being horrified and sometimes laughing darkly, you know, but thank God.
Yeah, and I mean, when they go nuts over fictional characters, Just incredible to watch, because, I mean, who do they think the snowflakes are?
It is... Well, there's, yeah, there's that hypocrisy, isn't there?
Yeah, and the stuff about the Little Mermaid too, recently, that was... Well, it's the same, it's exactly the same, you know, if only these people could look at, you know, looking at, realize that they're looking in a mirror.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like they don't want any change or, like, well, that is exactly, they don't, they're conservative, so they don't want any change or progress, but they won't admit that.
And so they pretend that they want to know the biological birthing process of fictional characters or that they want to know, like, how mermaids can get so dark in the bottom of the sea because science won't allow it.
Like, I think I did a joke cartoon strip called, I used to do one called Rational Man, like, a few years ago.
And I have that exact, like, moment where Rational Man is complaining about, like, a person of color playing the Little Mermaid and talking about how science wouldn't, like, it wouldn't work out scientifically a person of color playing the Little Mermaid and talking about how science wouldn't, like, it wouldn't work out scientifically because not And then I think last week I saw, like, a clip of Matt Walsh saying it.
But except I wrote this in 2019, I think.
Well, these people really, I mean, no disrespect to your prophetic abilities, but these people really are like clockwork mice.
You know what they're going to do.
You know what they're going to say.
You know, I remember they announced that the The young lady who plays the Little Mermaid in the new film.
They announced her quite a while ago, I think, before the film was made.
Obviously, they said it was going to be in it.
And there was a minor eruption then of like, what?
And everybody who's given this any thought since then has known that the minute the film comes out, or the minute the first teaser trailer comes out, They're just going to lose their shit over it.
But what's amazing to me is like, it's like the convergent evolution, you know, because you have on the one side, you have Maya Forstater and people replying to her kind of coming up with, you know, very spurious rigor, I think is the term, isn't it?
They're going into these scientific dissertations about why it's very unlikely that an alien species would evolve to reproduce via anything other than Biological reproduction, as it is on Earth, with two sexes, etc.
And then you've got the other lot, again, the mirror between them that neither of them can see.
You've got the other lot doing the... Well, actually, if you think about it, at the lower depths of the ocean, the sunlight would penetrate very little, so melanin levels... What the fuck are you people talking about?
I mean, the real answer to the mermaid thing is to just say, how do you know that's melanin?
Like, as if there are dark animals and dark creatures in the bottom of the ocean, etc.
What makes you think that's melanin in her skin?
And why are we even bothering to think of something like this?
Why are we even bothering with explaining it, though?
If you want to have the scientific conversation, fine.
Tell me why you think that's melanin.
People have done that and they've brought forward loads of examples.
of dark colored fish or things from the bottom of the ocean because of course you know people have responded with science and that's that's funny but it's not really about that is it it's it's what they're really doing is there it's not but if you get somebody in that moment I feel like that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say like if somebody actually did want to have this conversation on a like scientific basis that's that's a really obvious question like that's the way to like divide it there yeah yeah Why do you think that's relevant?
Like, tell me, like, explain to me.
And then, like, well, this is clearly, like, some kind of evolutionary basis, and it's like, well, yeah, but how is a half-fish, half-mammal, like, tell me, like, tell me how you think that happened, exactly, you know?
It's because of lobsters, Daniel!
Oh, yeah, this is probably lobster-related, yeah.
Because lobsters are marginalized!
It's all just a side effect of serotonin, surely, yeah, no, clearly, yeah.
But that reference does bring us back, I think, to the fundamental thing that's going on here, because it's about feeding the persecution complex again, isn't it?
It's the desperate desire to feel like you're being persecuted, your identity is being attacked and driven out of the realms of the acceptable.
In both cases, you know, the racists that complain about the Little Mermaid, they're feeding their persecution complex about, oh, white people are being, well, it's just the It's just the same old conspiracy theory, isn't it?
And the gender-criticals, with their nonsense about this cartoon alien, they're just doing the same thing.
They're trying to convince themselves that they're being persecuted.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think Teddy wanted to say something.
Teddy?
Yeah, hello.
Hey, nice to meet you.
Yeah, nice to meet you guys.
Apologies if there's some background noise.
I'm in the car at the moment.
But the thing that really kind of drives me batshit about these folks is that, you know, so many of the folks that, you know, complain about whether or not a mermaid is black or whether or not, you know, dwarves or elves are black in a magical world where trees can speak or whether or not, you know, There's black folks from Valeria in a world where there's magical dragons.
It's so many of these folks are the same people that think a man that lived 2,000 years ago in Palestine had fair skin and blonde hair.
Like, it just drives me crazy that they are so upset about all of this stuff, but yet can believe that a Palestinian man looked like he was American, essentially.
It's just craziness.
It just drives me nuts.
Yeah, they just, they pick and choose, I guess, what they can, what they want to believe, what they like to believe.
And there's also like a very dishonest point that they make where they'll take like some historical black figure and say, well, what if we got someone white to play this?
And like, I bet you wokes wouldn't like that.
And it's like, that's not what's happening here.
Ariel is fictional for fuck's sake.
It's not like in the, like a real person.
Oh, and where was the... there was a thread argument that was happening about this, where some right-winger on Twitter was essentially saying that Ariel is a real historical figure, just like Malcolm X. Yes, yes, I saw that.
That was so ridiculous.
You gotta think someone like that is trolling.
I mean, I have a hard time believing it.
Like, the idea that, you know, what have you had, like, Black characters being played by white actors.
Do you mean, like, the entire history of Hollywood up until about, like, six months ago?
You know, and it's still happening now?
Do you mean, like, that, like, all that thing?
Right, yeah.
You know, like, white actors, like, there is a reason, like, Italian actors played Native Americans in Westerns for, like, 70 years, you know?
But then they have the audacity to point to stuff like that And just edit out the entire history of that being completely permissible and completely uncontroversial and their side defending it.
They edit all that out and they point to stuff like that and they just say, well if that's wrong, why is it not wrong to do it the other way?
The hypocrisy of that is staggering.
Well, where were these folks when Morgan Freeman was playing a white character in Shawshank Redemption?
Like, I don't remember everybody getting all pissed off about that.
And Bonfire the Vanities.
He did it twice.
He plays a character who's white in the book in that.
What else happened?
Oh yeah, the flute thing.
Does anybody want to talk about the flute thing?
Lizzo and the flute?
Matt Walsh is very upset about that.
Oh my god, I watched that just before I got on this podcast and, like, fuck, yeah, no, Matt Walsh is so, he's so mad.
He doesn't want you to think he's mad, he doesn't want anyone to know he's mad, but he's so mad.
How dare she, how dare she put her fingers on that flute.
James Madison's crystal flute that I only heard about yesterday.
Yeah, that's the thing.
They don't even really elaborate on why they're mad.
If they could be very specific, that would be useful, but they won't be.
And of course, yes, nobody knew or cared about this flute before.
Well, yeah, and they can't be specific for the same old reasons, which is that they just have to admit that their problem is with Lizzo existing, you know, and being able to have the career she has in the world today, you know, that just shouldn't be, you know, somebody like that just shouldn't have that kind of career and shouldn't have those sorts of opportunities.
It's just fundamentally wrong that the world works like that now.
That's what they mean.
Obviously, you know, we all know that.
They know it.
Their fans, everybody listening to them and agreeing with them knows it.
It's so weird.
We live in this psychotic world where everybody knows what is being said, but nobody can admit it.
It's a sign of a really healthy society.
Yes, I mean, if anything, Twitter shows us what a healthy society we're all part of.
I think Lizzo and Megan Thee Stallion should get together and play really expensive historical musical instruments and kind of redo the WAP video.
I think that would really be just the best thing.
Yeah, playing Benjamin Franklin's glass piano or whatever it was.
The thing is that she's actually, like, she knows how to play the flute.
She's actually good at it.
Like, I don't see why that's disrespectful.
No.
Well, we all know.
Again, we all know.
Yeah, so if anybody else wants to join the conversation, just request to be a speaker.
I think we should probably wrap up soon-ish, but... Daniel, Jack, I love the podcast.
I've been following these creeps for a long time myself, and it's kind of nice to find other people that have the same kind of weird, morbid obsessions.
Can you talk a little bit about Roger Stone?
I mean, we know, I was listening to your Oath Keepers episode earlier and I, you know, the term hires them for personal security, the same were said of the Proud Boys.
We know from some of the Facebook stuff that happened around the 2016 election that he was actually funding the Proud Boys and their internet and some of their, like, Facebook stuff.
Can we talk about, like, some of these, like, billionaires or, you know, dark shadowy figures that are actually funding these extremist groups and kind of where those nexuses are?
Uh, I suspect if I had a real answer to that, then, uh, somebody would be paying me a significant more money than I am for my Patreon to be able to track this down.
Um, we know that there are, I mean, you know, particularly with the Proud Boys, we know that, you know, Gavin McInnes is, you know, affiliated at least with rebel media we know that he's now kind of independent but we also know that there is you know some kind of money flow going on i don't think the prod boys really require a lot of money sorry just interrupt uh daniel
there was a large power struggle um between him and between roger stone and gabin mcginnis when gabin quote unquote stepped down and that's when roger actually started funding the group and paying for them to be his personal security in florida so um i'm not sure if you knew about that but yeah i'm not sure if gabin is still involved with the proud boys yeah
I mean, I think he's still, I mean, yeah, I know I had, uh, forgotten that detail, but, you know, like, I'm, I'm certain that Gavin, like, when you look at, like, Proud Boys structure, Gavin has very little to do with it.
I think he's still kind of a spiritual, you know, sort of head.
I don't, like, it's just, it's just really unclear, like, how diffuse this kind of network is in the sense of, particularly with the Proud Boys sense.
They do have, you know, this kind of, like, very isolated structure and different groups are kind of funded in different ways.
Um, where Roger Stone is getting his money to, like, fund Proud Boy groups?
I mean, where does Roger Stone get his money in general, ultimately?
Um, I have no doubt that there are, you know, millionaires or billionaires who are sort of funding some money here and there.
I guess my thing is, like, it doesn't require a ton of money, and these guys often come from kind of fairly privileged, you know, ranks of society.
Um, I think this is something that happens in a lot of these groups is that, you know, all you really need is, you know, the ability to buy a polo shirt and to, you know, name some breakfast cereal and be willing to travel a bit.
And, um, I don't, like, again, I don't, I don't know that, like, there's this, like, huge outlay of money that's required to do what the Proud Boys do because they're not doing, kind of, like, big, like, advertising campaigns.
They're not doing kind of big media blitzes or anything like that.
And so, I mean, the real answer is like, this is all a big question mark, at least to me, and I'm not necessarily the person to ask about like kind of those financial shenanigans.
I am very interested in knowing the answer.
So if anyone listening to this has some kind of like beeline into this and has something for me to look at, I'm gonna have to look at it.
But ultimately, you know, I would really love for there to be someone, you know, who's, you know, a mainstream journalist whose remit was, like, looking into, like, these financial situations.
But, of course, you know, major media is not really kind of funding that sort of thing.
And it's kind of unclear how you would do it if it's all kind of private funding anyway.
Because, you know, they're not releasing, like, tax returns, for instance.
You know, they're not 5013C agencies, at least as far as I know.
Yeah, my sense with the funding issue, obviously it would be incredibly interesting to discover exactly who's funding what and where the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers etc.
are getting, you know, every cent that they get.
But my sense is that with a lot of organisations like that, like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys specifically, and organisations of that type, they tend to be comparatively low-level funding things.
You know, the money flow is not all that big comparatively.
And I think to a great extent, I think one of the reasons they work the way they work now, obviously, you know, Roger Stone has his direct connections, but I think one of the ways in which they work now is kind of through, to a great extent, self-funding models on this kind of low-cost, self-funding, contributor self-funding, the cells and the individual actions of small groups.
I think it kind of works on that almost quasi-autonomous level, I think, a lot of the time, anyway.
And I think the big money, the real sort of big dark money, that flows more into bigger, what you could call ideological persuasion stuff, and lobbying, of course.
I mean, you have this enormous network of sort of Ab-academia or sub-academia that's parasitic on academia in America which is this vast networks of think tanks and non-profits and places like that that are all over the economics departments of American universities just churning out the same free market and right-wing dogma over and over and over again and churning out people that adopt and ingest and completely imbibe that worldview and go on to become lobbyists and so on and so forth.
And, of course, you have huge flows of billionaire money flowing to the Federalist Society and places like that.
I think that's kind of emblematic of a division in the structure of the right, generally.
But one of the terrifying things about our moment, I think, is the way these things, without actually merging, in the sense of funding streams necessarily merging, They're ideologically merging, they're forming linkages despite being funded in discrete ways.
Yeah, I think all that is right.
I think a good group to look at that is kind of analogous to the way the Proud Boys work, particularly how dispersed the Proud Boys are now, there's so many different chapters around the country, there's not like a central organizing force, is when you look at some of the
Anti-abortion extremist groups like Abolish Human Abortion, Operation Save America, that travel around the country and target either churches or abortion clinics and do a lot of protest, really provocative, in-your-face kind of protest.
You know, I've been over the years worked with other journalists and activists to try to kind of pin down how how they get money.
How are they traveling?
And a lot of it is essentially, you know, sponsorships like they will when they travel to different places, you know, they stay at the homes of people that are within the anti-abortion movement or they stay at The homes of people from these very right-wing fundamentalist Christian churches, right?
So a lot of this, I think, if you look at kind of how these far-right extremist groups operate as far as kind of funding models, a lot of it is self-funding, like you said, but also kind of
um kind of a sponsorship model where when you're traveling around and doing that kind of stuff you're going to stay in people's homes that you know uh people are going to you know they do get donations from folks that are are kind of like-minded and want to you know kind of be a patron of this movement but um you know there's just not a lot of evidence that there's a lot of big money flowing into these groups
So, I guess one of the reasons I wanted to ask the question is the 60 Minutes report that came out this week that showed what they called the monster, which was that network of coordination between the groups that were planning and executing January 6th.
And, you know, they showed a photo with the leader of the Oath Keepers, the leader of the Proud Boys, Roger Stone, and several, like, quote unquote, you know, legit, normal, respectable GOP operatives.
And to my mind, like they're synchronized, right?
They are it.
And, you know, you don't necessarily get a total picture of it, but every now and then you kind of feel the, a little bit of the elephant.
And it just feels like more and more elephant as we go on.
But thank you for your answers.
Does anybody else have anything they'd like to chat about before we start wrapping up?
Sure, sure.
This is Mike.
I'm one of your listeners of the I Don't Speak German podcast, and ironically, I'm there right now.
You're where right now?
Germany?
Munich.
Oh, okay.
Oh, cool.
I wish I was at Oktoberfest right now.
So, jealous.
No worries, no worries.
So, Mike, I'm kind of curious as to what the ultimate objective of all that is.
All these things that they're building towards.
I personally don't think that some of these paths that you're going down are their ultimate objective, if you kind of get what I'm saying.
Like, one of the things I think is coming is more like they want a Christian theocracy for our country, United States that is.
But, you know, I don't know what that trend point is.
That's kind of the question I have.
I mean, it depends on which group you're talking about and which sort of faction, you know.
Part of the thing, part of the problem with kind of discussing this in generalities is that they all have their own Their own methodologies, their own desires, and their own, kind of, fit-it-in goals.
If you ask me, like, what seems likely, I think that, you know, something that looks something like a sort of Christian nationalism, you know, within the next, you know, 10 or 15 years seems like a very real possibility in which, you know, the rights of, you know, non-Christians, the rights of, you know, atheists and Jewish people and, you know,
Muslims will be increasingly laid waste by the Supreme Court while kind of, you know, explicitly or implicitly, you know, kind of Christian leaders become more and more entrenched, most certainly on the Republican side, but even in Democratic politics as, you know, they sort of like move more and more towards the center as Democrats are awoke to do.
I find it unlikely that something like an explicitly anti-Semitic National Socialist politics is going to take hold here.
Although you may see some sots towards a sort of You know, quote unquote socialist, you know, like redistributive policy, but it will be almost exclusively routed towards probably not like white people, but towards, you know, like Christians, towards people who are engaged in some kind of, you know, religious work or whatever.
That, I think, is sort of, like, where things are trending.
And the reason I keep following the sort of, like, the extreme, like, more National Socialist types is because I think they are kind of paving the way for that.
They want things to go further than that, but I just see it as unlikely that they're going to really, like, institute a real, you know, explicitly white nationalist politic within, you know, at least nationally in this country within the next, you know, couple of decades.
Sorry!
Very, very happy thoughts on a Saturday night!
Yeah.
Does anyone else have any?
Well, comparatively.
Comparatively to what, though?
Well, comparatively to them doing what he said they wouldn't do.
Oh, right, right, right, yeah.
I mean, you know, comparative to, like, you know, the concentration camp system that is really going to kill all the Jews and all the black people and all the, you know, communists in the United States.
Yeah, like, this is a better option, ultimately, you know, but still very bad, very bad.
Hello.
Yeah, sorry, I just came in kind of late to this chat.
I'm a big fan of IDSG, big fan of polite conversations.
You know, you guys do great work.
Yeah, but just my question is, of course, what do you think the purpose and, well, what do you think the function of the extreme right is for, like, more mainstream right, if you can make such a distinction?
To the extent you can make such a distinction these days.
Daniel, that's for you!
Sorry, this is something I spent a lot of time thinking about, so I don't like to jump in immediately, but yeah, no, I think, I think what, there's always a push-pull going on between the extreme right and the more mainstream right, and this, just regardless of however you think of extreme versus mainstream, there's always like this sort of
The mainstream exists within, well, the mainstream exists in, you know, sort of the comfy, warm, you know, within the warm fire of, you know, sort of the conservative movement within conservative funding circles, most importantly.
And then, you know, as you're on the edges, you get away from that, you're in the cold, but you are able to gain, particularly in the Internet age, you're able to gain traction, at least rhetorically.
And you're able to gain like eyeballs in your content by being, oh, we are the censored ones.
We are the ones who are not, you know, we're the edgy ones, you know.
And so there is this kind of thing in which, you know, everybody wants to be as far to the right as they can be while not being cut off from those kind of mainstream funding sources, right?
And I think that's a great thing.
And so, like, the existence of this string far right is to kind of keep pushing that window in that direction.
I mean, I have real issues with the concept of the Overton window, but it works as far as, like, this Twitter space.
You know, I think it works as sort of a conceptual thing that we're not going to get into the details on it, though.
But they push the Overton window in their direction.
Ultimately, I think you only have... Sorry, can I just jump in to say, how do you think the IDW ties into that?
I know we're making a distinction between the far right and the not far right, but like, what do you think the purpose or like the intent of the IDWers is in that regard where They also always shit on the left for pushing back at all.
Oh, Italy elected a fascist.
Well, that's the fault of the far left.
They shouldn't have called everybody racist.
What do you think their ideal situation is?
For anyone that really wants to talk about it.
Your friend and mine, Sam Harris.
My best friend.
Your best friend, you know.
When he says Ezra Klein, who is, you know, at best, a progressive liberal.
Oh, come on.
He's like the furthest left you can get.
He's like a far left extremist.
When Ezra Klein is as far to the left on racial matters as, you know, the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, the two edges of racial politics for Sam Harris are Ezra Klein and David Duke, effectively.
So, first of all, there are people further to the right than David Duke.
Not a lot, but they exist, believe me.
We've talked about plenty of them on IVSG.
But obviously, Ezra Klein is The mushy center, as far as I'm concerned, on these issues.
Like, yes, I think if Ezra Klein were, like, dictator of America, things would look very much better than they are now, but I don't think he's going to be able to fundamentally, like, solve these problems, even ideally, you know?
And so when, you know, the IDW sort of, like, Treat someone like Ezra Klein or Adam Davidson, who I mentioned, who I talked about earlier, as sort of like, well, these are the left wing.
These are the people like the really radical out there people thinking that white privilege is a problem that should be solved.
That has a very real effect on our politics because You know, ultimately within a capitalist journalism system, you know, the people who get invited to go on talk shows and the people who get to be invited to do op-eds and the people who get these kinds of positions are people who are never going to, like, fundamentally question the problems of white supremacy and, you know, capitalism in this society.
And so there is this kind of, like, there is this sort of left wall that exists within these people's mind frames and within sort of the popular discourse.
And that means that everything gets, you know, if Ezra Klein is your left wall, then, you know, Gavin McInnes doesn't look so bad, ultimately.
Because Ezra Klein is never going to be able to give the actual criticisms that Gavin McInnes or Dave Rubin or Ben Shapiro.
Ezra Klein went on Ben Shapiro's show to hype his book, you know?
This is only a few months after he did Sam Harris' show, when they did their big debate.
If you're relying on those people to be effective bulwarks against this rise of fascism, or this kind of Christian nationalism, Christofascism, however you want to describe it, ultimately that itself has this very strong effect within the way that politics just works in this country.
You know how you're saying like, the, the goal of the right is to be as far to the right as possible without losing, I guess, you said mainstream funding and also like this guise of respectability, right?
I think that is like, where the IDW comes in, like they're masters of kind of bridging the two.
I think that I think it kind of depends on, like, which figure you're talking about.
I think Douglas Murray very much exists right in that space.
I think Douglas Murray is a Nazi who doesn't want to say he's a Nazi, ultimately.
I mean, I think Douglas Murray, like, you know, lullabies himself to sleep at night with the rivers of blood speech, frankly.
Well, I mean, he has not hidden the fact that he thought that even the person who did that speech was underestimating the problem greatly.
Right, right.
I'm kind of being flippant here in that I don't think that Douglas Murray literally thinks Hitler did nothing wrong.
But, you know, I think, you know, Yeah, no, Douglas Murray is someone who, you know, very much sort of exists in that, like, even Douglas Murray is not as far-right as he might be.
I think that, you know, someone like a Brett Weinstein or a Sam Harris, like, tells himself he's a nice, like, centrist liberal just trying to make sense of the world, although they, you know, very much friend these far-right people.
And I think that, like, it's not, I don't know, like, I don't know, I have complicated feels about exactly, like, where these individuals lie, but I think that certainly, like, a Barry Weiss, you know, exists as far to the right as she thinks she can without, you know, really kind of losing that sort of mainstream credibility, I think.
I think maybe what I'm thinking is, like, the people who, like, rely on this sort of access to mainstream journalistic channels tow a different line than the ones who have sort of independent funding sources.
Yeah, my point was not to, like, sort of get you to tell us the different gradations of where they all fall, but rather, like, the function of the IDW as, like, a vehicle, as a whole thing.
Like, in my opinion, it is to bridge that gap.
Perhaps not always as intentionally, But they definitely do push the Overton window and normalize a lot of far-right talking points and I think want to normalize a lot of far-right talking points because they think the world has gone mad and too woke and too left and they don't seem to understand what far-left means politically.
It just it doesn't mean like someone who thinks racism is bad too often but it does Right, yeah.
I mean, I don't disagree with you.
I think maybe I'm overthinking the question a little bit.
Yeah, well, I agree with Anya.
I was actually thinking those same things.
So, yeah, I appreciate you, Anya, for bringing up that idea of the IDW people bridging and kind of, however knowingly, kind of mainstreaming a lot of these really noxious and horrifying And I was just thinking of someone who is definitely more knowing from history, Pat Buchanan in the U.S.
I don't know if we have figures like that.
I guess Trump is probably the closest.
We don't need a figure like Pat Buchanan today.
Because Pat Buchanan kind of wandered kind of David Duth talking points, and George H.W.
Bush wandered Pat Buchanan talking points.
You know, and we have Douglas Murray, and now we have Douglas Murray.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, but I mean, some of the stuff I've been reading his new book.
I don't know if you're familiar with Douglas Murray, but my goodness.
Yeah, his new book is like just entirely filled with white identity politics and David Duke type talking points just polished up a little bit.
And I Pat Buchanan appeared on James Edwards' The Political Cesspool show several times over the last ten years, although he doesn't appear these days.
But James Edwards is an explicit white nationalist.
They're now buddy-buddies with the National Justice Party guys.
There is no daylight there in terms of... Pat Buchanan would call himself a paleoconservative.
But that's, I mean, like, he's absolutely pushing, you know, kind of what Nash was talking about, you know, pretty continually, you know, to the degree that just now you're seeing it more in the sense that, like, If you're not seeing, like, national politicians with that kind of gravitas that I think Pat Buchanan, you know, was sort of granted access to these spheres because he was, you know, a former presidential candidate and he had, you know, he had worked with Nixon, etc., etc.
He'd worked with Reagan.
I think that what you're seeing more is these, certainly in these online communities, is you're seeing someone You know, bug of your mind, you know, Elijah Schaefer, who is, you know, functionally a Nazi, but just knows, you know, how not to talk about the Jews, you know, ultimately.
And I think you're going to see a lot more of that, and it's just going to get more and more.
They're just edging closer and closer to that, like, fiery edge, basically.
That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you again.
I think, I think Elijah Schaefer is definitely going to end up talking about the Jews.
I think it's only a matter of time.
Yeah, now that he's not employed by Glenn Beck anymore, we'll see where that goes.
Can't wait to see that Ethan Ralph livestream finally happen, you know?
Looking forward to that.
All right, I guess... Sorry, this is way out in the weeds for everybody here, I apologize.
Shall we start wrapping up now?
I guess we've been going for two hours, so I gotta I gotta go.
But thank you everyone for joining.
Thank you Jack and Daniel for co-hosting.
Everybody go support Jack and Daniel on Patreon.
And if you'd like to support me on Patreon, you can do that.
If you'd like to Uh, contribute to my GoFundMe that I mentioned at the top of this.
You can check that out.
I think it's linked to my pinned tweet.
Um, but thank you so much everyone for listening and hopefully we can do another one of these soon.
