Become a backer of Daniel or Jack to get exclusive access to a new bonus episode. Becoming a patron also brings access to all other bonus episodes. This time, Daniel and Jack embark on a chat about Christopher Nolan's 2008 Batman movie The Dark Knight. You know, it's the one with Heath Ledger as the Joker. In a development that is depressingly less surprising than we wish it were, it turns out we have so much to say about this silly movie that this episode morphs into Part 1 of a two part discussion before our own astonished and frankly ashamed faces as we talk. This episode focuses mainly on how the movie is a structural mess and a sometimes bafflingly incompetent bit of filmmaking. The next bit gets more into the themes and ideology. Part 2 along soon. Daniel's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/danielharper/posts Jack's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4196618&fan_landing=true Content Warnings. Please consider donating to help us make the show and stay independent. Patrons get exclusive access to one full extra episode a month. IDSG Twitter: https://twitter.com/idsgpod Daniel's Twitter: @danieleharper Jack's Twitter: @_Jack_Graham_ IDSG on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-dont-speak-german/id1449848509?ls=1
IDSG bonus episodes are a regular extra just for Patreon backers of myself or Daniel.
Here's a preview of the new one.
Again, to point out that this is like a synecdoche for larger problems as opposed to, like, we're nitpicking here.
The ending of that sequence is, you know, Batman falls off the bike They roll him over.
Yeah, so Batman refuses.
OK, we could talk a lot about Batman's morality in this and hopefully we will get into that at some point.
This might be a two part bonus episode.
There is so fucking much in this fucking movie.
Anyway, so Batman swerves to avoid the Joker.
Can I just say one thing?
Yeah, go ahead.
Batman does not fall off the bike.
No, no.
Script stage.
No.
Just, like, you see that and you think, like, this can't be.
Like, that was some other character, right?
There are big chunks of this where I would like see things on the rewatch specifically to do this podcast and go, let me rewatch that and make sure I just saw the thing that I thought I just saw.
Because it's very easy to kind of, you know, I'm watching the film.
I've seen this a few times.
Let me check Twitter, et cetera, glance back over and then Batman fell off the bike.
And then you go, hold on, rewind 45 seconds.
Man, Batman just fell off the bike.
You are correct.
In defense of the film, again, just to just to give it its due, Batman is supposed to be kind of new at this at this point, you know, like, I think that, like, we as an, again, the difference between we as an audience who are used to, like, Batman being this unstoppable, like, you know, crime fighting machine versus, like, in text, I think it's pretty clear that Batman's been at this for like a year or something.
I don't think there's a reason to assume otherwise.
And so this could be like a marker of young Batman.
I think that there is kind of a Batman year one element that is clearly referenced, certainly in Batman Begins.
That's literally like Batman just got started and here it's not supposed to be that much further on, you know?
Still, Batman literally swerves to avoid the Joker, runs into the wreckage, and then just, like, falls off.
Yeah, and is knocked unconscious.
Yeah, if not unconscious, at least sort of like he's dazed.
It's like, you know, Batman is... He's unconscious, Daniel.
I don't know if you saw the trope of, if you've ever seen the trope of, like, good guy grenades versus bad guy grenades.
And this is kind of referencing, like, 80s action movies.
But, like, the idea is that, like, bad guy grenades are basically smoke bombs.
They get thrown at, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and they just create, like, a little bit of smoke and a slight pop, like a cherry bomb.
Whereas good guy grenades have the, like, force of, like, sub-nuclear ordnance, right?
But the key here is that if a bad guy gets a hold of the good guy grenade, suddenly it acts like a bad guy grenade, and a good guy gets a hold of a bad guy grenade, and vice versa, right?
And this is kind of like what's happening here is that Batman's abilities, Batman's ability to resist, you know, whatever is kind of going on around him, definitely changes based on like who he's fighting in any particular moment.
And at any second, Any realistic depiction of who Batman is and the capabilities that he has, literally under his belt, would be able to destroy the Joker in like 30 seconds.
And in fact, re-watching this sequence this afternoon, I was sitting and thinking like, This is supposed to be the super secure route that has been cleared of all traffic, where there are cops everywhere.
They didn't put a few snipers on a rooftop around it, so when the Joker pops out, you just expect there's a headshot any moment now, and then the Joker's gone, and you didn't need Batman to begin with.
We didn't need Batman to kill him by running him over with a bike, which is apparently what Batman is planning before he changes his mind.
He's just, he's just Batman, Batman real mad apparently.
So anyway, Batman falls off the bike.
Sorry.
I know we've spent a lot of time on this, but it's worth like, I do actually do have somewhere I'm going with this, right?
Really is worth emphasizing.
Batman falls off the bike and knocks himself unconscious.
I want, I want that clear that that happens.
And he's built in this like electroshock thing in his mask.
So anybody touches his mask, they get like a huge electric shock.
Yeah.
Which, man, you just hope that he doesn't have to scratch his nose at some point while he's crime fighting.
Right.
You know, and then Batman is out for the count or whatever.
But so, you know, Vicky Vale tries to kiss him or anything, you know.
Well, you don't have to worry about that in this movie.
But anyway, So the Joker like bounces up on the guy who just got shocked and is just like in his like super crazy mode.
You know, happy that he's about to get to reveal who the Batman is.
Yeah.
Again, why does the Joker care?
What's the point of any of this?
Okay, let's not, sorry, again, this is a synecdoche for the bigger problems, okay?
You know, but it's worth noting, like, none of this makes any sense on any level, right?
Like, so, and then he's sitting there and he's about to lift the cowl.
And then we find out there's a SWAT team member standing right behind him, instead of the other goon who was originally standing there.
It's now a SWAT team guy.
And then suddenly it turns out, oh, it's Commissioner Gordon.
Yeah.
Gordon was standing there, who we thought was dead for the last half hour or so.
Now he gets to be the hero.
And later he tells his son, his son asks him, Did the Batman save you, Daddy?
He's like, no, this time I saved him.
It's like, what the fuck are you even talking about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's lots that there's lots we could talk about in this moment.
Where were you going?
The more you think about it, it unfolds into ever increasing... Firstly, we've said repeatedly now, Batman falls off the bike.
That's not what happens.
What happens actually is that Batman is apparently about to kill the Joker by running him over.
Right, right.
That seems to be what he's planning.
And then at the last minute, he sort of has a crisis of conscience.
He can't do it.
So he swerves away, loses control of the bike.
The bike skids and sort of goes sideways.
And Batman is through.
Now, look, I'm sorry.
But when you are traveling at that speed and your bike goes over, okay, you're wearing body armor, so nothing's broken.
All right.
Okay.
But you are nonetheless thrown meters.
You are thrown meters into the air.
Batman sort of ends up lying like a couple of feet away from the bike.
That's the first thing, right?
Now, the other thing you said, you said the Joker apparently wants to find out who Batman is.
No reason whatsoever is given for why.
And it's so... He's a chaos agent.
He doesn't even know what to do if he caught the car, Jack.
That's the message of the movie.
We will surely come back to this anyway.
Yes, indeed.
There are complexities about the Joker, but yeah, there's certainly no rationale as to why he cares about who Batman is.
So little does it actually matter that halfway through the movie, he suddenly says, actually, I've changed my mind.
I don't care who the Batman is.
This is pretty standard bad screenwriter syndrome, in which you write your character as a psychopath slash sociopath, and not even any actual what psychopaths and sociopaths are supposed to be, as opposed to you write him as generic crazy pants person screenwriter syndrome, so that you can then ascribe any motivation to him at any time.
That's right.
And so he can do anything at any time, and it's justified within his character.
See also all the minions that he has who are shown to have similar screenwriter level mental defects, like schizophrenia, you know.
And oh God, that's so awful.
The Joker, his goons are all schizophrenics, apparently.
Ah, fuck you.
My favorite, and I put those in heavy scare quotes, is the guy in the cell who has like the bomb inside him and he's like, they put, they were pretty lights, they put pretty lights inside of me.
I don't hear, I still hear the voices.
He said the voices would go away.
And, you know, we as an audience are supposed to go like, yeah, buddy, whatever, you know, let me beat the shit out of you because I'm a cop, you know, and I'm the tough guy about to, you know, you're just lying.
You're a cop killer.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Anyway, continue, please.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a separate thing, but yeah.
So much.
There's so much.
Movie mental illness.
So lazy, so offensive.
Absolutely.
We'll bracket that, maybe we'll go back to it.
I think we might do multiple episodes about The Dark Knight, because we haven't even begun to talk about the actual movie, and I'm having so much fun I don't want to stop.
Why is it Gordon that arrests him?
Why does it have to be Gordon that arrests him?
Why does Gordon have to pretend to be dead?
Gordon pretending to be dead achieves absolutely nothing.
