A special episode in which Daniel and Jack are joined by guest Shannon Foley Martinez. A friendly chat with an insightful, humane, moving speaker. Owing to technical difficulties the sound quality is not quite up to our recent standard, so apologies for that. But it's quite listenable. Content Warnings. Please consider donating to help us make the show and stay independent. From Jan 2021 onwards, patrons get exclusive access to one extra episode a month. Our first bonus episode is on the 1971 Peter Watkins movie Punishment Park. Our February bonus ep will be on Carol Reed's The Third Man (1949). Daniel's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/danielharper Jack's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4196618 IDSG Twitter: https://twitter.com/idsgpod IDSG on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-dont-speak-german/id1449848509?ls=1 Links / Notes: Shannon's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/shannonfoleymartinez Shannon's Twitter: https://twitter.com/_Shan_Martinez_ Shannon's website: https://www.shannonmartinezspeaks.com/ Shannon's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1c5KJi9BNS5idiXwqijbwA
I'm Jack Graham, he him, and in this podcast I talk to my friend Daniel he him, and in this podcast I talk to my friend Daniel Harper, also he him, about what he learned from years of listening to today's Nazis, white nationalists, white supremacists, and what they say to each white nationalists, white supremacists, and
Be warned, this is difficult subject matter.
Content warnings always apply.
And it's episode 80, which is a lovely number.
8-0.
I love that number.
80 of I Don't Speak German, featuring myself, as usual, and Daniel, as usual also.
Hello, Daniel.
Eight more, and we'll have to quit.
Yeah, I knew you were going to... Well, except for more episodes.
I knew you were going to make a big deal about that.
See, that's a nice number as well, and they've stolen it from us.
I hate them for that.
So yeah, today we are interviewing, having as our treasured guest, Shannon Foley Martinez, someone whom I've known for a long time and who is a former white nationalist and MSNBC contributor.
Actually, like our good – like our most famous guest host, I guess, which is amazing.
So one of the things that we've kind of run into on this podcast is the nature of kind of inviting formers on the show, something that I've resisted for quite a long time for – I think very good reasons because most people who.
Come out of that former sphere, tend to have agendas of one kind or another.
But Shannon and I have been talking for a while, and I think that she has a lot of really great insights that will be very useful for this audience.
And so, Shannon, welcome to the show.
Thank you for coming on.
Thank you guys so much for having me.
It's just such a pleasure to be here with y'all.
So I guess as a kind of a first step, could you tell us very briefly what your kind of history in the movement is?
So I was um I'm 46 now um and uh I was in the movement as like a white power neo-nazi skinhead.
I didn't have any official affiliation there was there were hammer skins around and there were some other like official affiliations uh like in my orbit but I never patched in um or became you know sort of like an official member of of any of those groups that were uh you know in in my world um from the time I was 15 until just about 20.
It was like my my Disengagement happened between like late in when I was 19 until I was like about 20.
Yeah, so like, what was the process of you kind of getting in and getting out again?
And just to give years to like, that would have been like late 80s, early 90s.
Like I was fully out by 93, 94, 1993, 94.
93, 94, 1993, 94.
Sure.
So you were in, so you were in, in like 1988 or so, which the most recent episode, I don't know if you've listened, Tom Metzger and the kind of early computer networks that were spreading propaganda in the early to late 80s and the kind of the white Aryan resistance and that's within the skinhead movement.
And it sounds like you were, you know.
I'm not trying to read into your story or to speak for you, but it sounds like you were kind of, like, connected into that whole thing.
Like, you were sort of a victim of a victim of a victim of Metzger's, in a way, right?
Oh yeah, and Metzger was definitely a regular topic of conversation and that, you know, that there was discussion about mainstreaming, growing out our hair, and, you know, and getting Real jobs where we can be accepted and normalized and exerting influence from inside the system.
And at the same time, there was a push towards paramilitary training and exercises and even a shift
That there was like this interim shift that happened while I was in there going from wearing, you know, like standard like boots and braces stuff to like paramilitary wear where like BDUs and stuff became the, you know, pretty much like what we wore all the time that these sort of like, you know, battle, battle dress uniforms was that there was like that shift.
And so there was a shift while I was in towards, you know, gathering,
Weapons and going out in the woods and training with them and you know and and I don't know even ridiculous crap That's like, you know, like playing paintball or whatever Yeah, like which we weren't playing paintball like we were training We were just like going out doing that we were training Yeah, there's always been a kind of a LARPing element to a lot of this stuff, right?
You know, like yeah Yeah, no, no, I find sorry I'm just sorry my brain is kind of going in weird directions that we didn't necessarily plan ahead of time because I've been thinking about that period between like that kind of late 80s early 90s like that kind of transition after Metzger.
Was sued after the civil lawsuit and then suddenly he has to go underground and then became You know the suit and tie Nazi and the rise of David Duke and Stormfront and all that sort of thing like that strikes me again after the last episode that we recorded is like this Incredibly important era and I just now realized that you are right there on the scene in that era and you and I should definitely have a conversation about that at some point.
For me, none of my involvement involved the internet.
I didn't even know the internet existed until after I was out and I was at college and my computer essentially was a word processor and I had a rudimentary understanding of sending an email.
So I was definitely, you know, sort of like in that pre-internet era.
But, you know, during a lot of those transitions, moving away from, you know, because it's like, so much of my time in at least the first like couple of years was like, you know, I mean, essentially sort of like street brawling.
You know, which is, I don't know, that's a lot of what I see, like, Proud Boys as.
I'm like, they're just like street brawlers, primarily, you know?
Oh yeah, no, no.
Yeah, I agree.
That's just what that is.
And then, but then there was this shift over into like paramilitary stuff and like I had trips where it was like, you know, and it's, you know, it's like, I would go, we would want to go somewhere.
Just on a road trip or whatever like so it's like normal like late teen early 20s stuff right like we just wanted to go on a road trip but we didn't have any money so we would you know like oh well we can connect with these like rednecks that we know that are
You know like Klan and like um you know Separatists and stuff like that and they had guns for us to like run and go sell so like that's how we would fund you know a road trip essentially.
Just be like all right well give us some guns we'll go like unload them we'll go sell them you know we'll go to wherever we're going and we'll hook up with your contacts and sell these guns for you.
That's kind of amazing.
So yeah, so much to go into there.
So how did you get out?
What was that process like for you?
And like, if any, you know, I mean, if anybody's listening and they don't, you know, it's like, my story is like, pretty out there online.
So it's like you can go Google me and like probably find out, you know, and for people who people that have written and filmed about it, who are much better at telling it maybe than I am about like how I got in and, you know, and all of that.
But like getting out, I ended up so I was going out with this dude that was in the army.
So like super not a new problem.
Probably while I was in probably about like 30 of my contacts while I was in were directly through like military that my my.
My parents lived in Augusta, Georgia for a time period, and Fort Gordon is there.
Fort Gordon is Signal Corps, and so a lot of people would come through there for their Training right after basic training so that they would train in their like MOS like they would train to like go do their job in the military or whatever and Probably about 30 of my contacts while I was in were directly through the military.
I had this very tenuous relationship with my parents where either the relationship that I was in would get so violent that I would just ask them if I could come home from wherever I was living.
I moved all over the country while I was in the white power movement.
Um, and, um, I would live there for a time.
Then usually I would meet somebody that was like in the army.
They would be leaving to go be stationed somewhere.
And I'd be like, okay, let's, you know, like, I'll just go with you or whatever.
Um, and while I was under 18, my parents felt like very legally obligated to report me as a runaway.
So there were a couple of times that I was picked up by the police as a runaway and sent back home.
And, um, Then, and there were a couple times where the situation that I was in was like so violent that I was just like, can I come home?
But then, you know, then I would meet new people via this army base that were, you know, that were white power dudes.
And, you know, it would start all over again.
Um, but at the time when I was like, when I was 19, uh, I was going out with a guy who was training, uh, at that army base and one of these like road trips that we took when he went home for Christmas exodus.
Um, I.
Got one of my friends to be like hey like hey We should like go visit them while you know where he was where his parent where his mom and his like little brothers lived in Texas like let's go on a let's go on a road trip and My friend was like okay sure like let's go get some guns to sell and we'll like oh, you know We'll go on this road trip
So we did, and I met his mom and his little brothers, and then when I got back, my parents were like, you just left home again without telling us, and you're over 18, so you're out.
You cannot live here anymore.
Which was fine with me, because we super didn't get along, but I didn't really have anywhere else to go, so I was kind of like, I don't know what to do.
So I talked to my boyfriend who talked to his mom and his mom very luckily for me said I could go live with her.
So after a few nights in the Super 8 Motel, I hopped on a Greyhound bus and went to Houston, where they lived.
And I didn't know for a long time if she knew what our ideology was and what we were all into or not.
But it turns out she didn't.
And it's like, okay.
If I showed up on my own doorstep to be like, hey, I'm here.
I mean, like at the time it was like I looked so gruff.
Like I wore, you know, like military style clothing and I just had just so much anger and so much rage.
Like my eyes, you know, like looking at the handful of pictures, like I didn't save any pictures of me.
I didn't, I don't, you know, I don't know.
There are, there are formers out there who hang on to like memorabilia.
But I got rid of everything over time.
Um, and, um, so like, I don't have anything really from that time.
And, uh, but there are a handful of pictures that exist out there of me at that time.
And I look at me and I'm just like, Oh my God, like my eyes look just, you know, I mean, they look just like shark eyes.
They look just like full of just, Rage and anger and hurt and pain and, you know, so, you know, so much bravado and machismo.
And, you know, so it's like if I showed up on my doorstep, I would be very hard pressed probably to be like, please come live with my family and my, my sons.
But this woman took me in and she was a single mom.
She had two 11 year old twins at the time and a nine year old son.
And essentially kind of like what happened while I was there is that The echo chamber that I have been living in, because in my case it was like a physical echo chamber.
Like now we know, you know, it's like echo chambers are built online where people just, you know, it's like your confirmation bias is like triggered all the time and these like just hateful and violent beliefs are like normalized inside those environments or whatever.
But for me that happened in like a physical space.
When I moved into that house, that is broken.
And so now I'm not just immersed in these like white power spaces 24-7.
And I think, you know, like part of the process of that was, and I wasn't super well connected with the white power scene in Houston.
There was one, but I didn't really know everybody very well.
And I, You know, it's like, while I was living there, it was like, the stability that I had, because I didn't have to worry about like, okay, where, you know, like, where am I spending the night tonight?
Is there going to be a fight tonight?
Am I going to jail tonight?
Where am I getting food tonight?
What you know, what is happening?
How do I negotiate the spaces that I'm in that I was like, I was just like part of this family.
And I think the stability and it was like this woman just took me in.
I didn't have to espouse an ideology to belong.
I didn't have to funnel beer to belong.
I didn't have to shoot guns to belong.
She just let me belong to her family.
In that environment, it allowed the space around me to expand so I could shift and begin to examine what my life had become.
It was like, is this really who I am?
Is this really what I want to die for?
Is this really what I believe?
Is this really the legacy that I want my life to have?
Over a period of months, Where my ideology began to fall away and the ideology actually, like, I feel like it fell away pretty quickly.
You know, that it was like, yeah, no, I don't actually believe any of this.
But it would take me, like, way, way, way longer to do, you know, to even, like, begin the process of examining and understanding, like, how did I get there in the first place?
To grapple with the idea, like, okay, you know, the violence that I would participate in, and, you know, just in physical violence, in
Um, you know, like, flyering and graffitiing, uh, you know, places of worship and different communities and stuff, like, okay, like, that, that's not just about ideas, like, that has actual, like, impact and harm to human beings and their entire communities, that that process would take much, much longer.
But in terms of, like, my ideology falling away, that that happened over probably about Four or five months after, like, I lived there.
And there was also, like, other stuff going on while I was there, where it was like, you know, I was, like, reading the boys, like, the Chronicles of Narnia before bed, and we would play football and frisbee and go camping and fishing, and those little boys, like, shared their world with me, the things that they were working on and interested in, and, you know, and it was kind of like, oh, yeah, like, this is, like, what people do.
It was like a revelation.
I was like, oh yeah, this is kind of what life is like.
This is what this is about, or whatever.
Because my life had been so hyper-violent, and had been sort of by design, this survival situation for the last four years, that it was literally just this revelation.
Like, oh yeah, this is what a life is, and this is what people do.
And then another thing that she did for me while I was there too, this mom, that she connected me with resources, like tangibly connected me with resources that I needed to begin to like move my life forward.
And it was like before the internet, right?
So it was like, I, you know, I was like, well, yeah, because I brought everywhere I went, even the whole time I was in the movement, I brought like all these books with me.
And like, some of them were like white power books.
But then there was also just like poetry and You know, fiction and like, you know, like, like other stuff.
And she's just like, don't you want to, like, go to college or something?
And I was just like, well, yeah, actually, there's the school that I heard about, you know, St.
John's College and like that.
Yeah, I think.
And so she was just like, OK, well, let's talk about like what you need to do to make that happen.
And so like not she didn't just talk to me about what I needed to do, but it was like when it was like, OK, you need to take your SATs.
She like made sure I had a number two pencil.
She put me in her car and drove me to take my test.
She made sure that when I wrote This letter to this college to ask them about what I needed to do and what their input on if I could ever even go Which I just found the letter that they wrote back to me Like in the middle of last year and I was like, oh my god, like that's I can't believe that I still have that letter that You know like she made sure that I had a stamp and then it got to the mailbox and
And, you know, like that I had the ability to just write this letter in the first place.
You know, so it wasn't just like a bunch of like sort of like goodwill that she was just like, OK, like, you know, it wasn't just like, you know, I mean, adults are like, you know, what do you want to do with your life or whatever?
But we're not super good a lot of times about like, OK, well, let's take these concrete steps now and I'm going to help you and make sure you have resources to like take those steps.
An actual material support network.
Imagine imagine how those of us on the left, please continue.
But you know it was like that was such an essential part of it for me.
And then after I had lived there for about, I think about nine months or so, I ended up like getting back in touch with my parents who I hadn't really talked to since I had been there and like started negotiating with them moving home so I could go to community college for
A year or so and you know sort of to demonstrate academic proficiency so I could go to this college that I really wanted to go to and which I did get into and I did go to but I didn't graduate from because pregnancy has plagued the entirety of my life.
What I've gathered from our online friendship, Shannon, is that you have some number of kids where N is greater than 6, but I'm not quite sure what N is for you, because either I'm a shitbag and I forget, or it's just kind of vague.
So if you could help me to explain that to the audience, it would be very helpful, I think.
Yeah, well it's not your fault.
It's complicated.
So I've had nine babies.
Like your babies?
Yes.
Biologically?
Yes.
I have birthed nine babies.
And I have two babies that I placed up for adoption in between age like 20 and 23.
And so it's like I was already out of the movement, but it was before I had my oldest son, you know, who was the first baby that I kept.
out of the movement.
Um, but it was before I had my oldest son, you know, who was the first baby that I kept.
Um, so I have seven children that I kept, but I also have a stepson, um, that, um, you know, I mean, has spent more and more time with us over the years, spent most of the last year with us.
And so, you know, I mean, and, you know, He's my son.
He's definitely one of my children.
I have seven biological children, but I have eight children, but I've had nine babies.
So whatever that math is, that is N. And that is the reason why that is complicated!
Yeah, no, and it's completely just like, once the number is over, like, four, like, my brain just kind of goes, a shitload of kids.
That's just where my head goes.
I, I apologize.
I even grew up, I even grew up in the South, like, I knew people who had a ton of kids, like, you know, it's fine, you know, but I just think, like, between you and me, we've had, like, uh, six kids, on average, so it's fine, you know?
Fine, it's fine, it's...
Yeah, it's its own, it's its own.
I'm like, I'm literally the world's worst contraceptor.
Like, I, so my, my youngest son, my oldest six kids all have the same dad, who, like, while we were recording actually just, like, walked into the house because he's, like, here to go hang out with them.
Um, we suck to being married.
Best, like, ex-husband that ever there was.
Like, well, you know, we'll always be family.
But, um, We, uh, my oldest, my youngest son, uh, I got married, I got remarried.
Um, it'll be eight years this year.
I got remarried eight years ago.
Um, and I, like before he and I got married long before that, I had had surgery to not have any more babies.
We were married a year.
I was like, I'm kind of bloated.
One of my kids was like, well, maybe you're pregnant.
And I was like, shut up.
And then I was like, Oh, maybe I should like pee on a stick.
And I was like, why are there two lines on here?
I can't get pregnant.
I had surgery to not get pregnant and I was still pregnant.
I have gotten pregnant on the pill, with condoms, with surgeries, and I don't have any more babies.
That's just your internal whiteness coming out there, Shannon.
You're just so white that you just have to produce more white babies.
You understand?
That's just the thing.
They want to kill me, but on the other hand, Like, I have a... On the other hand, you're single-handedly foiling the Great Replacement, so... Exactly.
Exactly.
Now, my kids will want to, you know, will choose to have any children growing up in the mayhem.
I'm just imagining, I'm just imagining your other, your kids having Your equal fertility?
Like, you're actively, like, spreading, like, white DNA across the universe, despite the fact that, like... Like... Although, my kids totally rock, so... Yeah, yeah.
Having more of that... Well, and there was, like, I actually, like, tweeted about this not super long ago, and that there was a time
When my oldest son is 23 now and when he was like around 20 he had come I was working at a music venue I was bartending in a music venue and he had come to see whoever was playing and I was like you know it's the end of the night and I was cleaning up and he was he was helping and um uh and I was just like I don't know why this was on my mind but I was just like you know I hope
If you guys choose not to have children, which is a totally valid choice, but if you guys choose not to have children I hope it's for like a positive reason.
I hope it's because it's like you want to pursue your art or it's like you're just like these are you know we want to be able to travel I want to whatever it is I hope it's like a positive choice and not like everything was so chaotic growing up in our household that there's no way I'm having kids and he was just like mom Don't you get it?
I was like, get what?
And he was like, don't you get it?
He's like, when your grandchildren and their grandchildren grow up and they lead amazing lives that are so fulfilling, it will be because of you.
Like, you chose to break the chain and you, like, you have chosen to be you in the world.
And, like, I mean, I was a wreck after.
I just totally wept.
You know, like, I was an absolute mess after that.
It was like one of those moments for me where it was just like, I've struggled my whole life up until pretty recently where I just felt completely unlovable and unworthy of love.
You know, like I was not, I was not made for good things, you know, and it was like one of those moments where it was like, because this is a child who had been with me, you know, like my whole adulthood pretty much has seen the, you know, such, who really knows me, knows me like at my best and at my worst and for him to like see that in me was so validating and it was,
Like, okay, like I never for another second in my life have to feel like I'm unloved or unlovable.
Like, it was amazing.
I mean, I have no children of my own, but hopefully I'm putting good lessons out into the world for other people's children.
And I'm-- Basically, I'm trying to take Nazi children and convert them into good people.
That's kind of the goal at this point.
Me too!
Actually, my real goal is to, like, influence parents and children before their kids become Nazis.
Yeah, no.
Yeah, that's ideal.
like find resonance in the first place and not ever become Nazis.
And instead work for, you know, like genuine equity and like all of the amazing things and dismantling white supremacy and all that.
My real goal is to like hit that target.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, so, so just, I would, I definitely want to put a big circle, put a big pen in that, We're going to come back to that here in a second.
But like, just referring to the way you got out of the movement, you know, just, just, so it sounds like it wasn't that some liberal came to you and debated with you about the merits of white supremacy or whatever.
Like, Hold on.
Was there some well-meaning liberal who showed up and started to have in-depth conversations with you and debate-bro'd you?
Was that how you left the movement?
Was that the thing?
So, the closest that there would be to that would be that even while I was in the movement, I loved Billy Bragg.
Sure?
Oh, wow.
And, I mean, you know, and, like, so, like, there are songs where he's, like, talking about Nazis, and while I was in the movement, like, there, you know, like, there would be C. Kyles or whatever thrown up.
But I loved Billy Bratt, and that, like, part of that, like, creating space around me so I could shift, like, part of that process for me was, like, how do I love this music?
Like, how is this music so important to me?
And at the same time, the beliefs that I am espousing are like the antithesis of this music.
Like, that internal grappling with that.
Which, like, right after, like, Trump was elected, um, not too long after that, uh, we actually, my oldest son and my husband and I drove to Virginia because Billy Brown was playing and we got to see him in this, like, crazy, in the birch mirror, which is this crazy, like,
And we got to like talk to him and meet him afterwards and I like got to tell him like dude like you like how your music like helped me and my son is a musician and got you know so they had this whole like conversation about music as a mechanism for for enacting change but yeah so like that's the closest
Being that there was to that for me that so much of no, I think that that is a completely ineffective, you know, I mentor people as they are leaving these movements and worldviews and and stuff and it's just like it's
There are ready-made defenses to any information injection, any sort of arguments that are made that it's like, if I had actually encountered somebody in that time where I was disengaging that tried to argue me out of what my life had been, I probably would have doubled down.
I probably would not have disengaged.
I probably would have doubled down and would now be dead or in jail.
Yeah, I mean I get I get so many people I actually don't get it so much anymore.
Sorry to just to tell my own kind of side of this is like since I started the podcast I used to get a ton of people who would kind of come to me and go.
Yeah, well, what what about like X?
What about like the black crime rate?
Or what about like, it said the Holocaust, etc, etc.
He wanted like debate me, you know, wanna, like sell me on Hitler and want me to like, bring them down for the brink or whatever.
And you know, my answer is kind of like, Well, I'm happy to, you know, have the conversation or whatever, but I'm not going to sit here and debate you because ultimately, like, the problem is that you're like, just kind of fundamentally wrong.
And like a simple Google search will prove you wrong, you know, but I've also gotten like, based on this podcast, like, and we, I kind of like to, and again, I'm not, I'm not asking for your permission to do this or whatever, but like, I kind of think of this podcast for the Nazis who listen, because I know that we do have a substantial Nazi audience.
It's a splash of cold water in the face, like, because I do mock their beliefs, and I do mock the things that they say, and I like, and I mock them, like, yes, I mock them.
And I don't take them seriously.
I take them seriously as human beings, but not seriously as ideologues.
And I have gotten, like, emails from people who said, yeah, I was on the path to, like, picking up a gun and go shooting up people, and then I listened to your show, and, like, it pulled me back from that shit.
And, like, how, like, what, how do you even say anything to that, right?
Like, yeah, like, that's amazing, right?
And that's not, that's not my goal here, like, but, That's amazing, right?
I think that that's so relevant, I mean, all the time.
But, like, right now, so much of my email that I am getting is, like, focused on QAnon.
And, you know, people desperate.
Like, my, you know, my mom, my sister, my brother, my grandma.
Like, just, you know, like, I don't know what to do.
And, you know, and there's such an impetus to, like, want there to be just, like, this really simple answer.
Like, here's this prescription for how you get people out and what you do.
And, you know, and...
It's just it's so incredibly it's so incredibly not like that in my opinion and like I made I made a crappy YouTube video on Inauguration Day.
It's not a crappy YouTube video.
It is a YouTube video.
We will link it in the show notes.
Anyway, continue.
Anyway, I mean, it is heartfelt, right?
It's from the depth of my heart.
I was taking a bath on Inauguration Day and Um, you know, and I was just like, I really, I know that there are going to be people today that are struggling, that are just like, all of this stuff was supposed to happen and it didn't.
And, you know, like my main concern, you know, my primary concern was like, please don't kill yourself.
Like, this is not worth losing your life over.
Like, hang on.
But, One of the things that I talk about and that and I did like I don't know maybe a couple years ago now maybe last year I don't totally remember that I was I was trying to do a thing and I did a thing on my like Instagram that I'm not like super, you know, I don't really post in there That it was like, you know, like this hashtag like leaving white nationalism and you know, it's like and I know there's like problems with terminology and you know, like whatever but
Um, that it was like all the things that I gained, you know, all the things that I didn't know that being immersed in those spaces was taking from me.
That it's like, I was, and I, you know, at this point, um, I mean, and I still learn things like about like, oh yeah, like this is, this, this fits with this.
Like this, this makes sense to me for like, why, how the hell I fucking ended up in those spaces and believing this violent and vile like shit in the first place.
But it was like, I was separated from so much goodness while I, while that was what my life was totally focused on.
I was separated from Like joy and you know it's like yeah we would like laugh and you know like and stuff like that but it was like it was almost always at the cost of someone or something else that that laughter was around.
I was separated from I was wondering and awe about the world around me.
I couldn't, you know, I didn't, while I was in, I didn't like watch, you know, the rainfall and think what an amazing like thing it is that each raindrop is, you know, its own creation or whatever.
Like, I didn't, I didn't, like, connect with this world of, like, challenging ideas and, you know, that there's this whole vastness and this whole array and spectrum and, like, history of learning and challenging ideas as they emerge and learning how to do better and
You know, all these things that I was separate from while my life was so immersed in that and, you know, in all of like the darkness and grappling with the world that I was living in.
And I'm sure when I started telling you this that there was a point to that.
Oh, no, no, no, we're good.
You're great.
You're great.
You know, like for me, it's just, you know, it's like this idea that it's like, um, you know, for the people that are listening that are entrenched in these spaces, that it's like, I know I was like, There were comments on this YouTube video and I was just like, if you're not ready to leave, don't leave.
But if you get ready, if you're ever in a place where you want to leave, I'm here.
It is not my mission to talk you out of what you're doing.
Like, and, you know, and especially, especially if what you're doing is focused on ideas, right?
It is important to try to stop harm And, you know, like, harmful actions and as this stuff is, like, spilling out into the world and translates into, you know, actionable violence, like, that's very important to, like, stand against.
You know, both bodily and with your voice and with everything that you have.
But in terms of, like, ideas or whatever, it's like, I'm not going to talk you out of the ideas that you have.
That's not who I am.
If you're not ready to leave, don't leave.
But if you ever get to the point that you want to leave, I can talk to you about that.
And I can talk to you about the process that I have, that I have walked through what I wish I knew earlier, what I wish I had learned earlier, resources I wish I had, like, earlier, things that I found immensely helpful, things that I found, like, absolutely of no value at all, like, those are the things for me, like, that's where, that's where I'm at.
That it's, like, because I know that, like, I've started I started thinking a few years ago about the trajectory into like violence and hate-based stuff as like a parabola rather than just sort of like a straight line.
And I'm sure like this will evolve over time and everything too but for me it's this sort of like parabola and then it's like at the like the low slope at the beginning of this parabola it's much easier to like off-ramp people when they're just like I've watched a bunch of videos and you know like and then it's like it's much easier to off-ramp somebody there than when that spills over to action and that our challenge is like seeing what action is in the digital age right like it's you begin
Seeking out other forums, if you begin, like, I think posting things for the intention of being violent or the intention of being offensive, like, that's an action.
In my world, in my life, that action translated to, like, physical space because all of this happened for me in a very physical realm.
Like, you know, and that, too, like, it was actually very unlikely for me to collide with this ideology and with these communities.
Because it had to happen in a physical space.
Like, I had to meet another human being.
I had to have a physical, like, record or cassette or CD put in my hand.
I had to have like a physical zine or a physical copy of, you know, Turner Diaries or Hunter or, you know, Mein Kampf or whatever, like put into my hands.
Like I had to this had to happen in a physical space.
It was actually very unlikely that my like broken, like messed up self would collide with this stuff and find resonance with it.
And now, you know, it's like when I talk at schools from like middle school all the way up to university and I like I start talking to people like, well, where do you hang out online?
Like who's got a TikTok?
Who's got a Twitch account?
Who's got, you know, a Discord?
And then I'm like, OK, well, who who's seen anti-Semitic or racist comments or content online?
And every single hand goes up, and the adults in the room, their faces drop and their jaws open, and they're just like, they can't believe that it's so prevalent.
That, like, for me, my position is that it is a certainty that every child will, at this point, encounter these ideologies and these communities online.
It's a certainty.
And for me, that's That matters, you know?
No, no, no, no.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, something of us who like have children, who interact with children, who are, you know, are caretakers and, um, you know, people that have influence in children's lives.
It's like, if you, if, if you think, okay, these children are absolutely going to grow up in a world where they collide with the
ideology and with these communities and with racism and anti-semitism and like overt like Nazi bullshit like that maybe requires us to like have a have a plan for what what to do and to recognize the risk factors for the likelihood of them finding resonance with with all this stuff.
No, no, absolutely.
I mean, one of the things, I mean, really what this podcast is meant to do is to communicate to educators and activists and journalists, you know, like this podcast is designed to be something that is for people who are communicating to kind of like larger communities or who are doing activism or who are educating people.
Like the idea is to try to explain these concepts to people With some exposure to it right you know and what i find fascinating about what you just said is you know for you in nineteen eighty eight or whatever.
You know you had to run into a skinhead group we had to run into a community.
Who would give you a zine who would give you a mimeograph who would give you a flyer you had to run into people who would kind of put this stuff in your brain but nowadays like go look at any go go on to YouTube right now and look at any video about the Holocaust and you'll find.
It's not just that, right?
you know, lugter and all that stuff in the comment section too.
And it's not just that, right?
Like, it's not just that it's like arguments about star Wars.
Yeah, no, no, no, no.
Yeah.
It's not just like videos that like, obviously to like old ass people like me, it's like, well, clearly like there's going to be some stuff there.
It's like when I, you know, it's like when I talk to my kids about like where the, you know, it's like, it's about arguments about star Wars and the world of star Wars and arguments about, you know, Like before it was not before it was over nazi shit i'm not trying to interrupt you but before it was over nazi shit is that like anti SJW is that anti you know like how dare you be woke how dare you consider like the role of women in these.
In the end games how do you consider the role of women in movies etc etc and then that got infiltrated by nazis some point in like twenty fourteen and even now you see you know the same sort of stuff happening on.
I'm not even gonna name like the various things because i'm trying not to like highlight certain things but you have.
People infiltrating places where kids go to hang out online is specifically in the in the pandemic where we're all just spending all our time on the Internet.
And they're spreading Nazi ideology and the worst of the worst Nazi ideology to kids.
And then they post it to their Bitshoot channel and get hundreds of thousands of views on Bitshoot, where like 10,000 views is a giant video on Bitshoot, right?
You know, and, and, and these people like, and, and this is, you know, Andrew Anglin, I apologize.
I'm sorry.
This is my role in the world.
Ailey Stormer has written for 13-year-olds, you know.
TRS, The Right Stuff, who are – I may be the world expert on the right stuff.
I apologize.
I'm sorry.
This is my role in the world.
It's to be the world expert on Viking Ike.
How dare – like this – how dare – like I feel really terrible that this is a thing I've spent my life doing for the last few years.
But, you know, they do.
They use humor.
Like you can look at the – they don't talk about it now, but they – in 2017, they're very open about like saying we use humor to get under people's skin and to like – Get into like kids brains and to spread our message and like the whole point is to find youth that you could then just kind of push things into and then once they get older they start to be politically active and then like you've
You've inoculated them against, you've inoculated them quote-unquote against the Holocaust or against, you know, Jews or whatever.
To question that, right?
To question the reality that they're giving.
To create an environment where those who are supposed to have authority Where you can question that authority which aligns completely with like adolescents right like you're already questioning like why are the people in charge in charge?
Why are the rules what they are like who do I choose to be like do I accept?
The vision that these people that are supposed to have authority over me have for me, like, they're already grappling with that.
And it's like, so my oldest is 23, my youngest is 5.
Yeah.
All but my oldest son, their entire lives, we've been at war.
Yeah.
Their entire lives, we have been like, you know, most of my kids, like since 2008 or whatever, it's like economically we've been in a recession or recovering from a recession and like now there's a pandemic and like their whole world is like super grim.
There's climate catastrophe looming.
They've watched me be a 1099 employee with no benefits.
I have no retirement.
I often have less than $100 in my checking account.
I don't have a savings account.
I have no retirement savings.
Nothing.
Their world is watching this economic precarity.
You and I are both very fucked economically.
So fucked.
But, they're watching this, right?
So you can either just weep at that, or you can make ridiculous, dark-ass jokes about it.
I make dark ass jokes all the time!
Cards Against Humanity is like a thing, like it's a super popular game.
Why?
Because like, if we didn't laugh about how horrible everything is, we would just be crippled.
Right?
So like, that impetus to make those jokes Like I super understand like the resonance that kids feel with that.
That it's like our whole world is we're so like we're so divorced from empowerment of any kind.
We literally watch adults Like, fuck everything up, and every new president is a new president that's gonna be impeached about something, and that's what they bicker about, and nobody ever gets anything done, and, like, we watch nobody ever make any advances in any way at all.
Like, our parents are stressed the fuck out.
Like, so I really, really understand and empathize with kids Finding resonance with that dark-ass humor.
And, like, the leftist answer is, you know, kind of broadly speaking, the right answer.
Like, look, the system is fundamentally broken.
We need to change it.
We need to unionize.
We need to organize.
We need to build solidarity with the worldwide working-class population that I am not better than the person who mined the Minerals that went into my cell phone that you know, like like we need to build a larger movement, but there's no Organization.
I mean there are organizations.
There are people building that but like ultimately it's so Minuscule and it's feel so far off And also it's asking difficult questions of the people who want to be involved with it.
It means you have to change things about yourself.
It means asking deep questions about your own complicity within the system.
It means being a better person, right?
And what the Nazis are offering is the shortcut.
It's the Jews.
Like, if we just get rid of the Jews, Selling longing shorting the shorting GameStop Stocks then Everything's going to be fine You know if we just get rid of the Jews in the government if it's just not Jerry Kushner if it's all the same like if we can just get those people out and put our people in then suddenly our The system isn't at fault.
It's the people if we get those particular people out of it.
And so it shortcuts this whole process.
It gives the easy answer, which is ultimately a mirage, right?
And that's kind of the thing that I'm working on for the next few years, I think, is to Understand is to help people to understand that kind of dichotomy and you can disagree with that if you like Please yell at me if you if you disagree, but you know like that's the thing that I'm working on right now, right?
So I think so a couple years ago three three years ago I am I went to a I gave a talk after maybe it was two years ago all right Her Age of Rage, Alt-Rage?
I can't remember.
No, no, no.
Alt-Right, Age of Rage.
Yeah.
Darryl Lamont Jenkins.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there was a showing of that.
I don't know Darryl Lamont Jenkins.
So, Darryl, please message me.
Thank you.
I'd love to have you on.
Anyway, yeah.
Oh my God, that would be amazing.
There was a showing of that at a Jewish film festival and they had asked me to speak on a panel afterwards and I went to Atlanta to do that and anyone who is familiar with Atlanta at all knows that the traffic is like an absolute just nightmare and at the same time my car was like super super fucked and it kept like overheating if I stood still too long in traffic
So, this panel ended at, like, 6 o'clock or something, and I knew, like, I was like, okay, I have to, like, shelter in place.
Like, if I try to drive home at this point, like, my car is gonna overheat, it's gonna be bad.
So I went to this pizza place, and I was like, alright, I'm just gonna, like, hang out here, have dinner, work on some stuff, read, whatever.
And while I was there waiting for traffic to die down at, you know, 11 o'clock at night in Atlanta, that I went to the bathroom and, you know, and I was like, I was peeing and
I, when I came out, there was this black mommy and this little girl who was like two years old and the mommy had like plunked this little girl up on the counter in the bathroom and this little girl had, she had these like sparkly pink shoes.
She had these cute little like little pigtails on her head and she had a pizza beard and mustache just all over.
And I came back to the bathroom stall and I was just like, oh my God, that's so cute.
And the mom's like, okay, be still.
Like, let me wipe your face.
Like, oh my gosh, you have beads all over.
And I was like, oh my God, that's so adorable.
And then they ended up leaving and I was like washing my hands and I went back to my table and I was thinking, I was just like, you know, 25 years ago, I would have come out of that bathroom stall and seen that exact same thing and I would have interpreted that as a threat.
I wouldn't have seen this adorable little girl and her mama Like 11 on her and their beautiful interaction, I would have come out and been like, that's a threat.
And that started me thinking, like, well, why?
Like, why is that?
Like, why?
What?
Like, and then I like, as I sat there, I was just like, you know, that I viewed the entire world as a dangerous and threatening plate.
And that like, you know, it's like if you look at any of like the stuff I'm putting out or if you look at like any of my story, it's like there's so much.
Like I had trauma growing up.
I had acute trauma of being sexually assaulted when I was 14 years old.
I had sexually, you know, abusive trauma while I was in the movement.
I had the trauma of like, there's this thing called like perpetrator induced trauma.
Like I had all these huge layers of trauma.
Um, where it's like, I felt like the world was a dangerous and threatening place all of the time.
And one of the things that this, like, white power bullshit offered me was a very easy-to-hold-on-to explanation of others for why, like, why I felt under threat and afraid all the time.
That at its essence, that it's like, All of the things, like, that are inherent in, like, Nazi bullshit offer us, like, sets of others, and it gives us this easy, like, target and easy explanation for why we feel afraid and under threat all of the time.
It's much easier to say, like, this group of people is why my life isn't great, as opposed to, like, well, there's, like, you know, late-stage capitalism and these, you know, these, like, these ideas, um, you know, it's like, it, it's, our brains aren't really wired like that.
Our brains as human beings are actually wired to categorize and easily identify threats.
That as human beings, we've like evolved biologically to be able to just be like threat, not a threat, threat, not a threat.
And that we like automatically sort of categorize things.
And so when there's this like set of others offered to us as the reason that we feel this way, it's incredibly, incredibly easy for us to just like latch on to that and become intellectually lazy.
And especially because the reality is that at least, you know, in America, and also I think this is very true in Britain as well.
It's like we live in this like colonialist world.
We live, you know, we live in a white supremacist system that...
We are given messages all of the time that basically uphold this reality, and so it's not really a big leap.
For you to just be like, oh, OK, yeah, that sounds better than like, I don't know.
I just need to sit here and be like, I don't I don't really understand why I am afraid and why I feel under threat, why the world feels like it's falling apart, why I have no idea what my future is going to be.
The world is like who knows 50 years from now if, you know, like we're even going to have like fresh water or, you know, or whatever in terms of climate.
or whatever, that it's like dealing with that is so immense and we don't have like the dialogue skills or the emotional skills to deal with that, that it feels so much more immediately satisfying to take those big giant things and find an other to that it feels so much more immediately satisfying to take those
One of the things that you hear from other former, former white nationalists, quote unquote, formers as, as they're, as they're, as they're sometimes called, is this sort of embracing of sort of this like centrist consensus is this sort of embracing of sort of this like centrist consensus and this embracing of a kind of like, well, both sides, you know, like, yeah, I used to be a Nazi, but also anti-fascist are kind of bad too, because they go out and break but
And what?
One of the things that I get from your Twitter feed and something and I'm not I'm trying not to put words in your mouth Sarah So, please yell at me again if you feel like it, but like one of the things I don't you about No, no, no, no.
I don't think I actually love you.
No, no, no, no, please.
I just want you to feel free to call me a dipshit.
Like, I'm trying to give you the out to not agree with me if you, like, don't agree with me, you know.
You know, like, but one of the things that I get from your Twitter feed and something that, like, you are happy to call out systemic white supremacy.
You are happy to call out, like, you're happy to talk about
Mainstream American politics and like connect it to the white supremacy that you were involved with in this in the extremist movement and You don't draw like a parallel, you know, you don't both sides it like, you know, like so whatever you have to say about You know people breaking windows at Starbucks or whatever like you're not like talking about that as well what you're saying like from my perspective you're connecting a
Starbucks as a corporation with what you were kind of involved with when you were 14.
And again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you know, I feel like there is a like, that's something that we try to talk about on the show is The connection between these kind of far-right ideas with the mainstream and the fact that those of us as leftists are trying to combat that and that like if we are going to combat these ideas it means more than just beating down the worst of the worst.
It means more than like getting people out of the extreme movement.
It means like changing people's opinions.
It means changing people's attitudes.
It means changing the very system under which we live and Again, I'm not trying to ask you to agree with me 100%, but this is part and parcel of why I invited you here, where I would not invite many other people who are in the quote-unquote former sphere on this show.
You are the one person from that world that I will invite back as often as you want to come back, because you do Seem to see this as part of a system.
And as we try to wrap up here, I would like to listen to you kind of talk about like, how that fits in in your mind, right?
You know?
So part, so if sometime, sometime we should like have at least like a couple of my kids on to talk to you too.
Yeah, sure.
The thing with being on this show is you get targeted by Nazis.
Well, I mean, they're my kids, so they're already there.
No, no, I get it.
I get it.
I get it.
So one of the things that, that is sort of our refrain here is that simplicity is the enemy, I like to embrace complexity.
And that it's very crucial to not, if you feel like you have very clear, a clear understanding of the way things are working and that that turns out to be a simplistic like notion, that that probably requires more thinking.
And for me, when I see, you know, I don't know, when I see shit like Charleston or Charlottesville or El Paso or the Capitol or, you know, like Christchurch or, you know, like any, like any of those like wretched, horrible mass attacks,
For me, that's just white supremacy's most overt and violent form.
That's horrible and just wretched, but that's only its most overt form, that white supremacy is the system that
Most of the colonialized world exists within and that the hurt and harm that black folks and indigenous folks and Latinx folks and people of color endure and the violence that they endure every day, like it's just never ending.
And we have an investment in talking about and, you know, I'm literally watching this in real time right now where we're just like we've decided again that like overt violent white supremacy is like a thing we need to deal with.
And it is.
Absolutely.
But.
Oh, yeah.
We need to treat it as a terrorist act, you see.
We need new terrorism laws, apparently.
Yeah.
We need to carpet bomb Colorado or something, apparently.
I think we are poised to do a lot of really bad things that just make things worse the next time the cycle, like, ends up.
I'm watching a panel in real time.
Can the alphabet agencies make things worse for anti-fascists?
That's really the key.
Yeah, I'm watching this all happen in real time, right?
And it's just like, you're watching the responses to this and it's just like, okay, but...
If we don't also turn inward and say, like, this is the system that we live within.
Like, we have... If you just, like, straight up read the Constitution, it's racist as fuck!
It's super racist!
They literally talk about slavery!
Like, we still... Like, it's still okay!
They literally talked about the Indian savages in the Declaration of Independence.
Oh my god, yeah.
It's like, we the people, but not really all the people.
We have to defeat savages.
If you just treat the most prevalent, emergent symptoms, you might get temporary relief.
But you have not, in any way, remotely addressed the underlying disease.
You're only ever just like treating symptoms and therefore you will continue to have symptoms and you will continue to have things that you need to keep treating unless you deal with the underlying disease that's there.
But this is also you know I mean and again I've been out of the white power movement for 25 years.
Over 25 years.
I, from the age of 23, when I had my oldest son, that I had to like begin this idea of like, I never want my kids to grow up and be like me.
Like ever.
I don't ever want them to look to hate or violence as an expression of anything going on in their lives.
Ever.
And so this has been a journey for me, and this is where I am at now, 25 years later, and watching, you know, and seeing the connections of The overt and most violent expressions of all this stuff, and also now seeing, you know, in the last 10 years or whatever, oh, like, this isn't, that isn't just the only bad stuff.
Like, that's just an expression of the bad stuff that is part of the entirety of, like, our way of life as Americans.
And like, and, and too, like, I think one of the things for me is that in the course of like my parenting journey and stuff too that
Understanding that like co-empowered leadership where it's like okay like you guys like what do you think about these rules or whatever or like what like let's let's make sure that we like talk about this stuff and if I've made some random rule that's stupid or whatever like you've got to be in at 11 and they're like yeah but the movie's done at 12 or whatever I'm like okay well my rule like literally has is random
Like, it's just about me and me feeling okay or whatever.
Like, okay, let's talk about that more.
Like, things like that.
That's like co-empowered means of finding and building consensus so that we're all okay and we connect and we can all thrive and we honor each other's like, hey, I really don't want you on the road after midnight.
I don't want you driving at last call.
statistically the most dangerous time for you to be on the road or whatever.
So that's why I'm making this rule.
And then they can be like, Oh, okay.
Like, well, what about if I'm home by 1230 or, you know, or whatever?
It's like, if we build this like co-empowered, um, model of, of how we organize our lives, it's like, I don't, I don't actually like lose anything.
I don't lose empowerment.
I don't lose anything.
In fact, we're all motivated more to think about The opinions and interactions of others and that we all actually like thrive better when we're all listening to one another's input and we're listening to the things that are important to each other and we have explanations for why this matters and that we have you know and I can say like hey this is what I want for
us to be as a family and what I want for you to as children as you grow up to become adults it's like as I get clear on that and communicate that like we're all better for that I don't actually have to give anything up except you know this idea that like oh well I'm the mom so I like have absolute authority or whatever and it's like but that doesn't actually serve me either like that
doesn't do anything for me because it still doesn't get me like what I want which is for my kids to grow up and like thrive as human beings and
And I think, like, we have to, like, stand that gap, as this generation of people that are alive right now, to just be like, okay, like, how do we reimagine the power structures that we have in society, in our culture, in our nations, and, like, and understand that, like, we're actually, you know, it's like, I'm not actually giving up any power by empowering more people.
That, in fact, it makes my job easier Because I understand what it is that like the people that I have authority over or whatever like actually want and I can help them better and I can take some things off of my plate or whatever and I don't know like that's so much of my view of the world has been informed by my journey as like a parent and
I want to be the person in, you know, who stands that gap between what came before me in my family and what goes forth in my family.
And so recently, recently I made a connection with Mark Charles, who ran for president and has a book out like Inconvenient Truths.
And I think it was him who was talking about in like in indigenous culture in America that it's like this idea of like seven generations before you and seven generations after you and looking at the impact of your actions in those terms.
Um, and it's like, well, what if we, what if we looked at that and we looked at, you know, that we really looked at like, what have seven generations brought to me?
And what do I want to give seven generations beyond me?
And like, what is it that we really, really want to give them?
What is it instead of just like focusing on our pain and what we don't have and who we're afraid of and whose fault it is that it's like looking in terms of legacy.
It's like, what is it that I want to give seven generations beyond me?
And my guess is that my answer and, you know, even like the worst of the worst, like Nazis, like they're probably going to be like, it's really real.
And it's we're talking about the real real.
They're probably going to align pretty closely.
Like, we want them to have stability.
We want them to thrive.
We want them to have meaning.
We want them to have purpose.
We want them to have access to what they need in order to, like, live and thrive and raise children, like, who feel seen and heard and loved and, you know, and supported and all of those things.
That we're probably, if we're looking in those terms, we probably are going to actually have really similar answers.
And for me, My, you know, like, I wish we could dialogue about that more.
In terms of, like, do we really want, if we look in terms of, like, what has the seven generations before us given us?
What is it that I want seven generations beyond my life to have from my life?
I can't think of a better way to end this, honestly.
So, Shannon, please.
You have previously worked As a bartender, which is an amazing, amazing profession.
Me, as a high-functioning alcoholic, you know, completely appreciate the bartenders in my life.
But you have left that noble profession to do this full-time, so... We'll see.
We'll see if it's sustainable.
We're going to try to make that happen right now.
Tell us how we can help make that sustainable for you.
I have a Patreon.
Thus far, I did just put one new thing out on there, but I made it available to everyone because I feel like the resources that I have and That I want to develop.
I don't think DRAD should be proprietary information.
I don't actually think DRAD organizations should exist.
I think it's rightly in the hands of...
That will probably be a future IDSG.
I think we need to come back to that.
I meant for us to get into that a little bit, but we have other things to talk about.
I'm sorry, I'm a mess.
No, no, it's fine.
People that already exist in communities should have that information because that's where this work actually happens.
Um, people like me can connect with people.
You know, it's like when I left, I was like, there was nobody to be like, so I was a Nazi.
Um, what do I do?
Right?
Like, so I see people like me as like having that role.
Um, but this work is really rightly belongs to everyone in the community.
Um, And you do, you need to work with schools who give, like, resources to... I don't know, social workers, psychologists, like, probation officers, people that are already, like, already dealing with people whose lives, like, show that they have, um, multitudinous, um, risk factors for, like, less than optimal outcomes, right?
Like, and... And I'm sure, and I'm sure idontspeakgerman.libsa.com is at the top of the list of those resources.
Is that, is that...
Everything I ever put out, that's number one.
I'm trying over this year to really focus on creating and generating resources that are just free and available and just what I have learned and you know my 25 years of doing this work and I'm raising my children and mentoring people as they leave.
I'm in no means a Nazi whisperer or whatever.
I'm literally just a mentor.
This can maybe give you some insight.
Some people will take it, some people won't.
And so that Patreon is uh that provides me with like a steady income stream that I can count on uh every month um and which is not super high right now but But hopefully, hopefully, hopefully you'll get a little boost after this.
I have no more children has, like, you know, prepared me, like, always for a life of poverty.
And I also have, like, Venmo, PayPal.
I'm on Twitter.
I'm very not – I'm on Facebook, but not very much.
I'm have a crap, you know a couple crappy Instagram handles that I don't update very much and one of them is totally focused on like hiking and getting And stuff like that, but um, but yeah, those are those are the main ways my patreon At this point the best way To contribute.
We'll put it in the show notes for sure.
So if you're listening to this, go with the show notes.
My bio on there is written by a former Adam Wofford member that has been a part of my life over the last year or so that I've been mentoring.
So I highly recommend everyone having their bio written by someone Who loves them.
And not doing it themselves.
Let someone else write your bio for you.
I'm going to have my bio written by a former Atomwaffen member.
That's probably the best plan for me in the future.
I 10-10 highly recommend.
Shannon, thank you so much for being on this show.
You're welcome back at any time.
And any shithead who wants to criticize me for bringing on a former onto this show can go fuck themselves as far as I'm concerned because Shannon is amazing and she deserves your support.
So, again, Shannon, thank you for coming on.
Thank you.
I'm just an imperfect human trying to do the best I have with whatever days I'm given.
I don't know.
I rambled a whole lot.
No, it was great.
It was great.
I don't think it's of use to someone somewhere.
That's all any of us can ever hope to do in this world, ultimately.
That's all we do, is do what you can on the days that you have left.
Because, as I know for a fact, some Atomwaffen piece of shit could target you.
and I want to burn your house down tomorrow and uh you know ultimately uh there's nothing you can do about that except to try to do the the good again while you're here and uh so again Shannon thank you for being on uh and uh we'll see you next time and I have my backpacking stuff in a separate location so that's what I really want to do anyway it's like I live out of my tent all the time so always looking on the bright side Yeah, my house is a piece of shit.
Yeah, you burned my house down.
I didn't like it anyway.
It's fine.
Insurance money would improve my life so much.
Thank you guys so much for putting up with me, listening to me ramble, and just for all the work that you do and the way that you do it.
Well, it's been an honor and a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
And it's, you know, seriously, listening to you talk, you know, there have been moments when I've, you know, really, really fascinating and interesting.
I kept on wanting to interject, you know, it's very hard for me as a white man not to interrupt and explain people's points back to them as if they don't know, but I managed to restrain myself because I just wanted to hear more of you talking.
And I found it very moving and very thought provoking.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you.
Just remember too, if you guys have me back, like, I have seven, like, seven kids, eight kids, you know, whatever.
You have N kids.
Please never feel bad.
I'm giving you consent right now to, like, interrupt me whenever.
That was I Don't Speak German.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed the show or found it useful, please spread the word.
If you want to contact me, I'm at underscore Jack underscore Graham underscore, Daniel is at Daniel E Harper, and the show's Twitter is at IDSGpod.
If you want to help us make the show and stay 100% editorially independent, we both have Patreons.
I Don't Speak German is hosted at idonspeakgerman.libsyn.com, and we're also on Apple Podcasts, Soundcloud, Spotify, Stitcher, and we show up in all podcast apps.
This show is associated with Eruditorum Press, where you can find more details about it.
