In this episode, after a little roundup of podcast recs, Daniel (finally) tells Jack all about the latest venture by Mike Enoch and the TRS: the National Justice Party. We listen in on their founding meeting in a barn and learn the *other* problem with the GOP according to Enoch's audience. Then we check in on Richard Spencer to see what he thinks about it all. Finally, Daniel gives Jack a short, improvised tutorial on the concept of... pardon us... 'Finkelthink', which Jack finds unwarrantedly confusing. Fun times. Election? What election would that be officer? Content Warnings Show Notes / Links: Correction: In the episode, Daniel mistakenly says TRS has moved to Lancaster, PA. It's actually Greely. Embrace The Void Podcast: https://voidpod.com/podcasts/2020/10/29/ev-164-the-far-right-wing-with-daniel-harper Woking Up Episode 1: https://soundcloud.com/politeconversations/woking-up-1 Decoding the Gurus: https://decoding-the-gurus.captivate.fm/ ALAB Liberate Michigan: https://www.alabseries.com/episodes/episode-17-liberate-michigan National Justice Party Website: https://nationaljusticeparty.com/ NJP Founding Speech, August 15, 2020: https://nationaljusticeparty.com/2020/08/19/national-justice-party-founding-speech-august-15-2020/ Thread from Antifascist Alligator on the known NJP members: https://twitter.com/Antifagator/status/1296426682673434624 Howard Graves and Michael Edison Hayden, "White Nationalist Organization Forms Racist, Antisemitic Political Party" https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/08/21/white-nationalist-organization-forms-racist-antisemitic-political-party NJP Founding Speech, August 15, 2020: https://nationaljusticeparty.com/2020/08/19/national-justice-party-founding-speech-august-15-2020/ Full Haus Episode 60: National Justice Party: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7NA1sopZV0 Hunter Wallace and Richard Spencer on Third Parties: (Not available, because Spencer got all his shit deplatformed)
I'm Jack Graham, he him, and in this podcast I talk to my friend Daniel he him, and in this podcast I talk to my friend Daniel Harper, also he him, about what he learned from years of listening to today's Nazis, white nationalists, white supremacists, and what they say to white nationalists, white supremacists, and what
Be warned, this is difficult subject matter.
Content warnings always apply.
And it's episode 70, one past 69, as Daniel has just observed.
So not so nice.
And yeah, no fabulous guests this week, I'm afraid.
So it's just us.
It's IDSG Classic with just me and Daniel.
I'm the British one who doesn't really know anything and makes the same four observations and the same three jokes in alternating orders.
And Daniel's the American one who knows stuff.
Hello, Daniel.
I don't really know anything.
I've just spent a lot of time listening to these assholes, and so I just spew out the same observations over and over again.
These people are terrible, and they say terrible things, but if you know enough about their internal dynamics, then you can pit them against each other, and so that's the only reason that any of this matters.
That's the theory.
That's the kind of theory underlying this podcast, isn't it?
It's a podcast in which those two guys I've just described to you, me and the guy who was just talking, every episode is somebody's first.
We talk about nasty and unpleasant and ridiculous people and the unpleasant and nasty and ridiculous things they do.
That's the basic mission of this podcast and boy is this episode going to be on brand!
We're going back to, this is very much an IDSG classic as you said because we're going back to one of my original obsessions and you know the The old-school Nazis.
We've been doing a lot of this sort of like pseudo-Nazis and a lot of this sort of IDW crowd and they're like leading people into this kind of far-right space and here we're like, no, no, no, no, professional anti-Semites.
This is where we're returning to our stomping ground of the TRS crew, the Right Stuff crew, Mike Enoch and pals.
Yeah, yeah.
But, well, firstly, let's do a little time check.
You're probably listening to this, listener, after the American presidential election, whereas we're recording this on the, well, for me it's the, I think for Daniel it's still the 1st of November, and for me it's the 2nd of November, the start of November 2020.
2020 right so basically it's Sunday night where I am I have not voted yet.
I am going to be voting in person on the day for complicated and personal reasons.
I will not be voting in this election.
Well, yeah, because you just want Trump to win, ultimately.
That's the only reason why you're not going to be voting in this election.
I'm sure that's true.
So yeah, there is this kind of interesting thing of, like, I don't think that the election will be over by the time this episode drops, in the sense that, like, votes will still be being counted and there will be Supreme Court drama.
I'm not sure that this election will ever be over.
No, it's been two years.
The 2016 election still isn't over, for fuck's sake.
We're going to do, I think next week we're going to do an episode that's kind of about how people are talking about this election on the super far right, and just sort of get into this, but there is this sense in which this is the least invested I have felt in any presidential election in my lifetime, and I did not expect to feel that way, but that's where we are.
That's where we are.
It's simultaneously the most important election of our lifetimes and also at the same time completely uninvolving.
It's very strange.
Yeah, I made my decision four years ago, as I did anyway, but it really has been.
There's nothing going on here.
It's great.
It's fine.
Everything is fine.
You're choosing between continuing the awfulness that exists versus an awfulness that will be less bad by a significant margin, but will still be very, very bad and will just lead to more of what we've been going through.
That's ultimately the decision that we've been left to in this country.
And it's great.
It's fine.
Everything is fine.
It's fine.
This is a big, complex issue, and we're not really going to touch on it seriously.
So I think we should just leave it.
Yeah, we should leave it.
Maybe we'll do some of this next week, but it really is like a... I've been very, very frustrated for the last few months, and we can move on to the rest of our episode now.
We can, yeah.
Which, I mean, we've basically already told you what that's about.
But before we get on to that, I think you have some recommendations for other podcasts to listen to.
So, you know, by all means, you know, plug other people's shows.
Yeah, plug other people.
Yeah, just, well, other stuff that's sort of relevant to kind of what we do here and people that I thought...
Well, people who I would like to shed a little light on, particularly if you've been interested in the last few.
The first is the Embrace the Void podcast.
This is a guy who is a philosopher at Rutgers who does a podcast about philosophy, and the reason I'm recommending this one first is that I appeared on the most recent episode and discussed Like we had been planning to do one and then his previous guest dropped out unexpectedly.
And so he sent me a message like on very short notice and said, Hey, can you do can you do tomorrow?
And I'm like, yeah, I suppose.
So I showed up and we had a very general plan.
And I ended up kind of doing, like, an intro to I Don't Speak German, like, sort of, like, what we do on this podcast.
And what I realized in the process was the degree to which he kept having to downshift me in terms of, like, I'm used to speaking to the I Don't Speak German audience who have a certain degree of, like, pre-familiarity with these concepts.
And so then I started talking about, oh yeah, and then Mikey and Ike, he does the thing, and then he's like, hold on, hold on, slow down.
Who is this, you know?
So you were chatting with a philosopher, and he had to keep saying, hang on, bring it down a bit for me.
Hang on, bring down your super obscure references.
And this is something that will come back as we get deeper into this episode.
I think there is a kind of interesting dynamic here.
But yeah, no.
Nobody invites me on podcasts.
They always invite you.
I'm very upset about this.
I can't think why they're not clamouring for the guy who just makes the same remarks about the petty bourgeoisie and then the dick joke over and over again.
Why don't they want me?
Well, I wasn't going to... I didn't mean to introduce this on the show, so we might cut this out.
But it is actually pretty funny, but I have been invited to go on to polite conversations with Ina Muhammad, who is a previous guest of the show.
Former guest, yeah.
And she actively wants you to kind of come on as well.
And I was going to let you know that when we were not recording the podcast.
But you are welcome to come on.
But the reason that that's in my head right now is that She has she does the polite conversations podcast and she is doing a kind of a deep dive on her own personal relationship with the works of Sam Harris like Sam Harris actually appeared on her show in like the early days when she was like a fan of his and she has become increasingly disenchanted with him and she and I have.
Had many private conversations about what a dipshit Sam Harris is.
And so she's done like two parts of her of this show called Woking Up, as opposed to Waking Up, which is what Sam Harris used to call his show.
And It is hilarious.
Like, I do not do the, like, actual, like, guffawing level of, like, like, I usually, like, that's really funny.
He gets the chuckle out of me.
I was dying laughing at some bits in this Woking Up show, and only in the way that someone who's very familiar with Sam Harris's content will, but it's great.
I've linked to episode one.
of Woking Up and then Episode 2 is kind of right after that.
She's doing it for her Patreons first, and I think she's gonna, she's done the first two and then she's gonna wait a few weeks and kind of do more of these.
So, subscribe to her, go follow this.
It's great.
The Polite Conversations is a really fun podcast.
And you and I are hypothetically invited to go on to Polite Conversations at some point in November if we can make that work out.
So, Hypothetically, I look forward to that.
Terrific, yeah.
Yeah, I know has the same sort of relationship with Sam Harris, really, that you and I have, you know, because we started out, you used to admire me, but it's just been a process of progressive disillusion, hasn't it?
It has, it has.
And really, ultimately, in about three years, I'm going to be doing a podcast about your previous podcasts, linking together clips, and making fun of you, and then describing what a terrible person you have become, and your decrepitude as you get more and more famous.
That's what's going to happen.
Yeah, Daniel's new forthcoming podcast, Jack Graham is a dickhead, featuring lots of clips, showing me up for... Lots of scope.
Lots of scope for doing what Daniel just said.
Well, you know... Podcasts?
I think the thing is that's a mutually assured destruction between the two of us, Jack, so...
Moving on, another show that I've been listening to.
It's a new show.
They've done four episodes at this point.
Five episodes, I think, because they did a bonus one just this week.
And this is related to the Weinstein stuff.
And I was kind of chatting in DMs with Chris Cavanaugh, who I quoted, who did like a tweet thread about the Portal episode in which Brett and Eric Weinstein talked about how they should all have Nobel Prizes and should be the most lauded people.
So, after we recorded that episode- I love the Weinsteins, they're so cute.
We could do a Weinstein thing.
I was watching a Weinstein video today and just chuckling to myself, just going like, this is just a goldmine.
This is just a content goldmine.
It's just people like me.
If I was willing to just do that level of content, I would have to do nothing else.
Just go and watch the latest Weinstein video.
Take it apart.
It would be like so easy and I would make a lot of money from it.
It would be fun.
It would be great.
Everybody would love it.
And I choose not to do that for some stupid reason.
But anyway, he and a buddy of his who are also sort of they're both academic scientists in a couple different fields doing work about like kind of social psychology.
They both are experts in that.
And they're doing a show called Decoding the Gurus.
And so what they're doing is kind of taking these sort of guru figures like like the first episode is about like Eric and Brett Weinstein's That episode of that podcast and what they're doing is kind of taking it and kind of pulling it apart on a rhetorical level and trying to understand sort of how they Gain an audience and what the what the kind of advantages and disadvantages are like the second episode is about James Lindsay who's sort of like the king of the
You know, what misses the heart of satanic worship or whatever, who will probably be a subject of this podcast down the line.
The third episode is on Jordan Peterson, and they most recently did one, again, just kind of a bonus episode about Eric Weinstein talking about his bullshit again.
So these guys are, you know, I think there are more like kind of Far lefty fans people who are kind of more where you and I are in politics would find them a little bit milk toasty I think there's yeah, it's a problematic stuff in terms of you know There's some stuff that so there's some light between us, but I think people will I think it is very worthwhile To look at it from their point of view.
I think they have a really good dynamic between them and I highly recommend the podcast despite the fact that like I They don't agree with my politics, I don't agree with their politics, but we recommend each other regardless.
And that's really what's important here, is that we all come together to beat up the far right.
That's kind of the goal, right?
No, I disagree.
I won't listen to podcasts from anybody with whom I'm not in 100% complete ideological agreement.
So you don't even listen to this podcast, right?
No, I won't listen to you.
God.
Fucking liberal.
Rad lib.
That's what you need. - Yeah, so.
So yeah, check that out.
It's definitely worth checking out.
I want to recommend it.
And the other one, and I'm sorry to kind of go on to this degree, kind of recommending shows, but I've been kind of collecting them for a little while.
And this one is not necessarily, these are in kind of decreasing order, because like Embracing the Void I was on.
And then, like, Ina, like, I know, and I've, like, she's been on this podcast, and Dakota the Guru's, like, I'm in contact with Chris, and, but I haven't been on the show, and he hasn't been on this show.
And then this one is someone who I have no contact with whatsoever, but was relevant to our, um, Temple in the Wolverine, um, Watchmen episode, because, uh, this is the A-Lab episode, episode 17, which is called Liberate Michigan.
And this is A Lab Is All Lawyers Are Bad, and this is one of the Lefty Lawyer podcasts that I listen to.
Very enjoyable show.
I really love this show.
I think it has some real highlights.
It's really great to kind of check out from the beginning.
I don't love every episode, but the ones that I love, I actually do, like, re-listen to.
It's great stuff.
But this one, they actually did go through the actual documentation from the actual charging documents and such.
And kind of dig into exactly what you can sort of infer happened based on who shows up when and which person kind of shows up and what kind of legal charges they're using.
And I recommend this in part because we recorded that episode very quickly without sort of like a really kind of deep understanding of what was actually kind of going on.
It was more a very kind of off-the-cuff thing.
But these guys actually go through and sort of determine that there was some federal involvement where it seems like, yeah, there's probably a little bit of pushing these guys to do something that they weren't necessarily going to do.
But at the same time, these guys were definitely dangerous.
And it definitely wasn't like – there is some – There is some rhetorical space between these guys were absolutely 100% about to commit a terrorist act and these guys were just benign political actors who were put in place by the Feds.
In particular, there's a bit in the charging documents where they were Um, planning to, uh, light explosives to blow up a bridge to distract from their, um, from their kidnapping contempt against, uh, Governor Whitmer.
Um, that bit of it seems to have been, like, created by the feds as a way of, like, um, basically, like, it was, it does seem to be a bit of entrapment as a way of kind of, like, you actually are, like, building a bomb.
You actually are doing something that creates material steps in it, in furtherance of a, Federal crime or a state crime or a terrorist crime, etc.
And so that seems to have been kind of like egged on by the feds at that point.
But like all the rest of it was completely on their own record, right?
And so this one little bit is a thing.
And so anyway, it's a great episode.
I highly recommend it.
Link is in the show notes.
And I kind of check out some of the other episodes as well.
My favorite Alab episode is the one Be Like Brett, and the Brett in the Be Like Brett is Brett Kavanaugh, because it does describe why you should never ever be a lawyer.
And it is interesting to hear lawyers talk about why you should never ever be a lawyer, and it is one of the great uses of the podcasting medium, in my opinion.
So, go ahead.
Sounds good.
No, I think that's an interesting issue, the question of the Feds provoking these guys.
Which we bring up on a regular basis when we talk about this stuff, right?
It's always like, we don't trust the Feds, we use the charging document as sort of a – and we can kind of go by the guideline and kind of go, yeah, this sounds like a real thing based on what we know outside of the charging documents, right?
Sorry, I'm just trying to highlight, we do call that out when we do this.
We don't trust the feds.
Sorry, please go ahead.
But at the same time, somebody, a federal agent, not that we have those in this country obviously, but the equivalent in this country, could be online telling me in private messages, let's build a bomb and let's kidnap so-and-so forever.
And there'd never be a point at which I would say, yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
While we're recommending podcasts, I want to get in on this just briefly.
The excellent Tim Poole clips on Twitter.
Yes, yes.
He said very nice things about our Tim Poole episode.
And he's really good.
And he did an episode of The Shitpost.
Yes.
That's very good.
You should check out his episode of the Shitpost.
That's a great little companion piece to... Well, I flatter myself.
Ours is a companion piece to that.
But yeah, if you just can't get enough of people dunking on poor old Baldy McDickface, that's a good bit of IDSG methadone for you.
It should not surprise you that I am in contact with the person who runs the Temple Clips account, and he has been invited to appear on the show at some point in the future.
Okay, so I think we can move on to the main meeting potatoes.
Yeah, well we have to do the initial 20 minutes where I make the same observations and the same jokes in slightly different order over and over again and then we can get on with the stuff where you tell people about things you know about.
Sure.
That's how it works.
Yeah, that's how it works.
Every time.
Yeah.
So, Daniel, tell people about things you know about.
Well, today we're going to be talking about the National Justice Party.
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah, finally!
We're getting around to this.
I'm really looking forward to this because I love justice.
I think justice is a good thing.
No, I agree.
Justice is good.
Do you like national justice at all?
Well, I like national justice in the sense that it implies that the entire country, in the sense that everybody, everybody in the country is going to get justice equally, nationally.
I like that idea.
That sounds great.
Clearly.
Is that what they're doing?
That is exactly what they're doing.
Every person within the nation state Is getting justice.
It really is about it's deeply about like kind of criminal justice reform and making sure it's kind of a prison abolitionist movement is what it is.
It's really, you know, redistributive justice.
And, you know, I just wanted to like highlight how great it is that they've actually become really decent people.
I mean, you know, and let's forget their deep anti-Semitism.
No, it's nothing about that at all.
They're truly terrible people.
So, I think the way to kind of get into this, and I have some clips.
You do.
So, I'm going to just say that... He does.
He has some clips.
I have... Sorry, please, go on.
Go on.
No, I have... One of the problems that... I do listen to my commenters and to people who kind of show up in my DMs, even if I don't respond.
And people who kind of ping me on Twitter.
And one of the things that I got multiple times is, can you play the clips at regular speed instead of 1.5x speed?
Because I can't understand them at 1.5x speed.
And there's no time this is going to be more punishing, because I have something like eight minutes of Mikey and Ock that you're going to get to listen to today.
So, you know, I do deeply, deeply apologize.
Thanks, people that ding Daniel on Twitter.
Thanks very much.
The other thing is that, you know, one of the issues that we kind of run into and that I've kind of like understanding increasingly is that we do kind of like, yeah, we did an episode about Mike Enoch.
And so we get to say, go listen to episode nine.
And then you get like all the background that you need to kind of come back to this one.
And I will recommend you go listen to episode nine, which is all about Mike Enoch and the right stuff.
But we do kind of have a little bit of a habit of, like, not necessarily, like, re-summarizing some of this stuff.
And just sort of, like, you do kind of get to just drop into, like, a kind of continuing conversation.
And that's maybe not what I want this to be.
I don't know exactly how to kind of handle that problem, because a lot of the issue is that, like, I can't tell you about the National Justice Party unless you kind of already have a little bit of a background on Mike Enoch and the RightStuff.biz.
But if I try to re-explain the RightStuff.biz, we'll be here for another hour before I can explain the National Justice Party.
It's a deeply, it's a problem.
It's a paradox.
Suffice to say that Mikey Iannocchi, Mike Pinovich is his real name, and a couple of his buddies started the Daily Show-Up podcast in 2014, which they had previously been on Facebook message boards starting back around 2011.
were kind of right-wing, edutarian, libertarian types who were, quote-unquote, race realists who ended up becoming like full-fledged Nazis and were like deeply influential in the movement in the 2016 and 2017 era and have continued race realists who ended up becoming like full-fledged Nazis and were like deeply influential in the movement in the 2016
Mikey and I was scheduled to speak at the Unite the Right rally and actually did give a speech, but the rally was canceled, a base dot, et cetera, et cetera.
Anyway, a long history there.
As an aside, I find it interesting, and I think this is relevant to kind of where we're going in this episode, that my social media presence, and I can't speak for you, Jack, but my social media presence is very different in 2020 Jack, but my social media presence is very different in 2020 than it was in It's sort of like the conversation online around the US election.
Like in 2016, Like, expressing an opinion about Hillary Clinton would get you, like, Pepe memes, like, immediately.
You'd get, like, I got, like, really disgusting stuff even before I was really, like, fully tracking Nazis.
Like, I mean, I would get, like, you know, like, violent, um, like, bloody dick porn in my DMs just for, like, talking about politics and, you know, sort of like, you know, God Emperor Trump memes.
And I'm not seeing really any of that now, and I don't know if that's universal.
I mean, I've been much more, I mean, I've changed my social media habits quite significantly since then.
But I think, you know, anecdotally, I think we can say that, like, the media, like, social media is treating the 2020 election very differently than they treated the 2016 election.
And this is kind of a much bigger, more complicated topic that Maybe we'll get into in a future episode.
But part of the reason for that is that in, like, the run-up to the 2016 election here in the United States, The Right Stuff and its, like, massive cadre of heavily online fans were pushing memes on, like, every, um, even remotely, uh, you know, online media figure that they could possibly get ahead of.
They were, like, invading comment threads, they were doing all that stuff.
And the social media companies have done Very deeply imperfect job and a like rudimentary job But they have like really kind of like cut the most overt levels of Nazism like out of their feed, right?
And this has had like this enormous effect on like the way that these guys are able to Communicate to a larger audience in terms of like kind of spreading their white nationalist message online and so
For the whole of, like, really 2018 and 2019, I listened to every episode, at least every non-Paywall episode, of the Daily Showa during that period, and much of their Paywall content, and much of the other shows that are on their network, they were, like, deeply, deeply depressed.
They were forced by the inexorable logic of their financial considerations to produce three two hour podcasts a week, one of which was a paywall show for their audience so that they could kind of keep up.
It was a deeply unpleasant listen.
revenue stream.
But like a lot of those shows really were like they get to like an hour 45 and then just kind of bullshit for 15 minutes and cut it off right at two hours.
Like they were, they were deeply not interested in kind of continuing this.
And they were also being sued during a lot of this period and doing kind of like, it was a deeply kind of unpleasant listen.
It was really not comfortable for anyone involved.
And it's great.
Nazis are unhappy.
I'm perfectly fine with Nazis being unhappy.
I think it's great.
Yeah.
And that kind of lasted up until sort of the beginning of the coronavirus crisis, in which case they were thinking in terms of like using the sort of like baseline xenophobia against China as a sort of way of justifying, you know, immigration restriction and whatever.
But Enoch himself really reactivated around the time of the George Floyd protests and he really got his energy back and he feels today like he did kind of back in like 2017.
He's really kind of back on like he's got energy again.
He's got he's got a fire in his belly for really kind of pushing ideas out there and the National Justice Party seems to be a kind of repurposing of Some of that 2017 energy in kind of a different way.
So, like, as we discussed in Episodes 3 and 4 about the Unites the Right rally, the, you know, the summer of 2017 was very much about, within this movement, was very much about, like, kind of doing, like, in-person rallies and doing kind of in-person events in defense of Confederate monuments and, you know, like, you know, Tiki Torch parades and that sort of thing.
And we haven't seen much of that since Unite the Right for obvious reasons, but I suspect that what we're seeing with the National Justice Party is sort of like where white nationalism writ large is going to try to go, or at least where the TRS crew is going to try to go in terms of building a larger movement outside of the people who are already like their paywall subscribers.
And Spoiler alert, they're going to fail.
I think they're going to fail very badly.
In fact, Richard Spencer agrees with me that they're going to fail very badly.
Oh, you must be right.
When Richard Spencer and I agree on anything, it's usually a good sign.
I don't know.
That's a weird thing to say, but I do have some clips from Richard Spencer talking about the National Justice Party.
Oh, great.
The other thing here to understand, just as we get started, and we never did a full episode on Erik Stryker.
Most of the calls, I don't want to.
I don't want to.
to i just i don't i don't want to i just i don't i don't want to like you know um but why not it's funny like there are just some people where i'm just like the idea of like spending enough time to actually like plan an episode is just uh it's just it just makes me feel sad
and uh you know eric striker is one of those people like he's just he's both like this deeply important person and a complete dipshit who's completely unimportant to anything.
And so it is yeah, you know, it's hard.
It's hard to like put myself through that process to care enough about About Eric Stryker to do a full episode, but he's one of these guys who's long been, he's been in kind of white nationalism for a number of years.
He wrote for the Daily Stormer for a little while, kind of left that in, I believe, 2017 and moved over to doing a weekly show, a weekly paywall show on the Daily Show, on the Right Stuff Network.
With Mikey and I called Strike and Mike.
And I think either late last year or early this year, he started a new project which was called National Justice.
National-justice.com.
And so if you see references online to the national hyphen, that's national justice because he put the hyphen in his URL and so they all like give him shit for it, right?
So, and the National Justice.com is like his attempt to do like serious hard-hitting journalism from a white nationalist perspective and what it really is... Now I'm already seeing an inherent problem here.
Yeah, yeah.
And what it really is is, you know, a slightly more overtly racist Andy Ngo Twitter feed combined with Daily Stormer without the GIFs.
That's essentially what national justice is.
He wants it to be like serious journalism, but it is just kind of like it's it's it's it's shit here It's nothing it's it's bullshit.
Yeah Yeah, I mean he's he does claim to have like sources And I believe that Eric Stryker has you know kind of that there are people within our federal government who are feeding information Eric Stryker I have no reason not to believe that Because there are fucking Nazis at our federal government structure But yeah, it's it's a it's a whole bunch of bullshit.
Don't trust it for what it is I But on August 15th of 2020, and this was something they had kind of been hinting at for a while, they announced the formation of this National Justice Party.
And they claim that the name, they just kind of liked the name and went with the name and kind of named it the National Justice Party.
And then it has no official affiliation with national-justice.com, etc, etc.
But Eric Stryker is sort of like the second person in command of the National Justice Party.
He's, you know, the head is Mike Enoch, aka Mike Pinovich, who they call Chairman Mike on their website, and I've linked to their website.
And, you know, there are a lot of memes in the far-right spaces because they did like a big video, like an announcement video, which we will play some clips from here momentarily, of this new political party and the whole Aesthetic is Eric Stryker kind of standing and like staring daggers into Mike Enoch as like, one day you will go down and I will be the new head of this party.
Nazis don't change, do they?
They don't change.
They don't change.
And you know, some of that is kind of manipulated to like pick a frame from a video and you can make it say whatever you want.
But, you know, it really is like...
There is some of that there.
So the announcement video was recorded almost certainly as we kind of have figured out now.
And the whole of TRS, which is Jesse Dunstan and Mike Enoch, have moved from their previous place in Fishkill, New York.
And they are now in somewhere near Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Which was something that was kind of suspected for a little while among people who are following these guys closely But they sort of officially announced it.
They are now filming in a new studio.
They have changed their appeal box address They are now somewhere in the vicinity of Lancaster, Pennsylvania So if you are someone in official New York who was worried that these guys were in your town They are no longer in your town Please forward all of that to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and send them to me if they have any questions, and I will be happy to help out.
Anyway, they filmed their announcement video of the formation of this new party in a barn.
They claimed they had... They did the show right here in the barn!
In the barn, in the barn, yeah.
They claimed they had a couple hundred guys present.
I would believe that it is.
It does seem to be, you know, they sort of like brought in a bunch of their like kind of close Confederates.
People have been in their milieu for a long time and kind of showed up to be the kind of like the big national justice party.
Uh, release this kind of big, like this is, this is our kind of coming out party.
We're going to do this big 30 minute speech.
Chairman Mike is going to give, is going to give a speech.
And, um, one of the things that I should note is that there's a reason that political speeches are like pre-written and, um, uh, rehearsed to within an inch of their lives.
Um, and there's a reason that like podcast hosts, uh, well, Podcasting is a noble profession and a noble calling.
I think I have no problem saying that, but there's a reason that, like, I am not a political candidate.
I'm speaking off the cuff in the way that I speak on this podcast because, well, I'm going to play you some clips and I think it will become completely clear.
Mike is stuffed into a what looks to be a very uncomfortable suit with a broad like it looks like padded shoulder pads like almost Mellie Griffith and Working Girl style, you know, shoulder pads on his ill-fitting suit.
He is kind of ranting and raving.
He's using internal TRS memes to a crowd of people who are deeply invested in the internal TRS memes.
And so he gets a lot of standing ovations and a lot of pounding on the tables and such in the room.
I'm not sure how well this is traveling to a less deeply invested into your particular version of White Nationalist audience, Mike.
I was going to say, if you're starting a political party and you want to reach out to the masses, then obviously what you want to do is stick to arcane, hermetic, internal jargon, isn't it?
And so what I have here is I'm going to play some clips.
And again, deeply apologetically, I want to give you a sense of what this sounds like.
And so this first clip is not sped up at all.
It is three minutes and thirty nine seconds long.
And what I have done is taken I've taken, I've kind of, the beginning of the clip is the actual beginning of the video, and then I've kind of like cut it a bit to sort of shorten it up and kind of give it a little bit more context, but it sort of all flows as one thing.
And I've put the Law & Order donk-donk in to let you know where the edits are.
And I have included a link to this full, to the full speech, so if you do want to listen to this, the whole thing, it is, I've listened to it like six or seven times to this point, and it is, you know, it gets funnier every single time I listen to it, but, so... The Law and Order dunk dunk, that's my bit, you stole that.
I did, well, I wanted to keep it on brand for the podcast, you see, so we're just gonna...
If you feel the need to laugh or to exclaim at any time during the playing of this audio, Jack, please feel free.
I'm going to remain quiet and let you listen to it.
It's nice to have permission on my own podcast.
On your own podcast, which you edit, but I am gonna remain quiet during this and I do apologize for letting people listen to this.
We don't quite have the ability to like play and stop clips quite in like real time.
We haven't like got that like technology set up yet.
Maybe we'll try to do that down the line.
That would be really great to do with this, but we're not gonna do that now.
I'm just gonna play this and then we will discuss Some of the bullshit.
We can't possibly do all the bullshit in this 3 minutes and 39 seconds.
But we will do some of the bullshit when we come back.
So here we go.
Alright.
So after that video, I'm sure you're all pretty pissed off.
I'm sure everybody's feeling it in their heart the way I am, seeing the humiliation, the degradation, the humiliation, the violence, the attacks on not just white people, but everything we stand for, every moral value that we hold under attack right now.
This is an unprecedented political emergency that is going on in the United States today.
And not just America, Europe and the world.
The white race is under attack, and it's unambiguous.
It's not hidden.
They tell us every day.
Every single day.
Elite, plutocrats, media figures.
We know who runs the media.
Every one of them.
Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL is out there telling you who he wants suppressed, what he wants suppressed, whose statue he wants coming down.
And we all know who it is that's under attack, and it's us.
It's us.
Close.
So what are we going to do about it?
We have to answer this.
this cannot go unanswered.
Yet today, our country, our country founded by white men with the intention of protecting the sovereign rights of the people, refuses to protect our rights, specifically refuses to protect our rights on racial grounds.
Meanwhile, the rights of anarchists, of criminals, and of wealthy plutocrats are totally protected.
Yet where are we?
We have no protection.
How many times have we seen the familiar scene A Black Lives Matter riot is going on.
Anarchists are flooding the streets.
Buildings are burning.
Statues are toppling.
And an unfortunate motorist makes a wrong turn.
What happens next?
We've all seen it.
There's an altercation.
Anarchists attack the car.
Maybe somebody gets a bump on the head.
Maybe they get a bruise on the knee.
They get a hangnail.
How about that driver?
He's a terrorist!
White supremacist terrorist!
Lock him up!
Lock him up!
Fuck that!
Excuse me.
Those men are innocent.
Innocent people.
Innocent people are getting framed and called terrorists merely for driving in, as is their right to drive on a public street.
For driving in and noticing that, wow, okay, the government has now allowed these streets to be taken over by black anarchist rioters, and they apparently just have the right to ambush and attack innocent pedestrians and motorists.
That's just their right now.
They're just given that.
The government's just decided, we're just going to give that to them?
We're just going to give that to them?
But no, is that just?
Is that right?
Is that justice?
No!
James Fields!
James Fields exactly was a template for this.
A young man had his entire, this man, unless we win, this man will spend the rest of his life in jail.
Are we going to let that happen?
No!
No, absolutely not.
So, again, it's worth noting that here in early November of 2020, looking back to mid-August, he is referencing back to, or he is in the moment referring to the continual social media or he is in the moment referring to the continual social media posting of videos of people running down protesters at
He is referring to, and at times he names particular people who became kind of social media stars by getting out of their cars and threatening protesters with guns for standing in their way, etc.
And you note that his whole thing is a poor motorist who has no choice but to run down protesters, because it is my right of way, it is my right to get where I'm going, and he connects it specifically to James Fields.
Who was the person who murdered Heather Heyer and injured, I believe, the number was 24 other people in Charlottesville at the Unite the Right rally, and who is a kind of cause celebre in this kind of far-right space.
So, he's building a political movement around resentment against the protests that were going on over the summer.
He's in this far-right space, and he's deliberately trying to connect it to the people who are being challenged, who are being prosecuted for running over protesters, etc., are being persecuted because they are white, and not because they are homicidal dipshits who tried to kill people.
bivehicular homicide.
That's the basis of this political party.
He goes on, he talks a lot about the timing of the event.
He did it on August 15th, 2020, which is just a few days after the three-year anniversary of the Unite the Right rally.
He talks a lot about the Unite the Right rally, and he's trying to kind of bring in people from the Democratic and Republican parties who are white and who are disaffected from the kind of mainstream focus of the two-party system. and he's trying to kind of bring in people from He He is trying to sort of build a political movement built around that kind of basic resentment.
But it is ultimately, at its core, and from that audio I hope you can tell, despite the fact that I kind of cut it up a bit, it is built around a right-wing resentment of Anarchists and Black Lives Matter protesters against white supremacy and the police state.
That is what this political party is being rhetorically built around.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's very clear.
I was expecting to laugh more, but it was just very depressing, to be honest with you.
I was listening to it, and I was listening to bullshit lie after bullshit lie, and Nazi rhetoric after Nazi rhetoric.
I felt like, mentally, I was ticking them off.
Yeah, that's that one done.
Yeah, there's another one.
It's just absolutely, by the numbers, classic Nazi bullshit.
And I gotta be honest with you, I didn't feel much like laughing.
I was just sitting there getting very depressed.
Well, you know, I have a lot more familiarity with this particular version of dipshittery than you do, and so maybe the humor kind of comes out a little bit further.
It does sound very much like they do do live episodes of The Daily Show from time to time.
And you can tell even in that like clipped bit, because that four minutes is out of like the first like eight or nine minutes of the speech, where I kind of cut after three minutes and then kind of cut back in a little bit later on.
And you can kind of tell even in that how he's Free associating, right?
He's just sort of like he brings up terms and then just sort of like goes off and talks about that for a while.
There are not many complete sentences.
There's very rarely like a completed thought.
He just sort of kind of comes back to kind of the same ideas over and over again.
circles around to the same stuff and that free associative style is very like TRS specific and again this is not how political speeches I'm not trying to give him advice but this is not how political speeches are designed right like political speeches are written to bring points home very firmly and to actually like make specific kind of political advocacy points in order to appeal to particular like voter segments right I mean
In fairness, random rambling free association is now how the President of the United States makes political speeches.
That's true.
That's true.
And I, and I would agree that like, Mikey Knock is, is, you know, hopefully this has not come across as like a false praise or whatever, but it's more coherent than the current president of the United States.
I would agree with that, you know, but yeah, it's hard to be less coherent than the, than the current president of the United States.
But yeah, no, you know somebody who's actually trying to make a success of political Speechifying, you know, they they do they do an Obama, you know, they get it all written and they get it on a teleprompter Come on, right and I mean, you know Obama is like very talented at like saying everything is saying nothing at the same time and that's like, you know, ultimately like the thing that like professional politicians do in any case how dare you our savior our savior obama yes absolutely i agree
um um there's also and i can see like there are certain like bits even in that segment that are like very um trs meme appropriate um but like i try like if you listen to the full thing it's even more like it's filled with these sort of like inside jokes and inside references um there's a lot of people who are in the same way but i don't know if you listen to At one point, he calls Donald Trump the most Jewish president that's ever been in this country.
He's turned the Golan Heights into the Dolan Heights!
The Donald Trump Heights!
You know, and I meant to include that little bit of audio, but it was kind of disassociated from anything else that I thought was interesting, and I didn't want to, you know, like, again, I put a link to the full video.
I would If you're interested in this topic, it's probably worth watching at least a little bit of the full video, just because the audio does not really do this justice.
As opposed to watching this man rant and rave into a microphone in front of this barn door for 38 minutes.
It's an experience.
It sounds like it's working for the audience that's there.
They're laughing it up.
It's working for the, like, hardcore TRS audience, each of whom got, like, is, like, deeply vetted and got, like, a personalized email to come and come to this thing in some, like, rural farm in presumably Pennsylvania.
Yes, it works for the hardcore internal audience.
And, in fact, the people who were... I'm jumping ahead slightly.
There's a podcast that I was, like, slightly coy about naming by name in the past, but, you know, It's very obvious for people who kind of know what I was saying, what I was saying.
There's a podcast called Full House, and that's Full House, H-A-U-S.
And it is a fatherhood podcast that is part of the TRS network.
I have mentioned it a couple of times before on this show.
But the lead on that is a guy named Matthew Q. Gerbert.
Matthew Q. Gerbert goes by the Namda Plume, or Namda, what's Namda Audio?
Namda Podcast?
Coach Fenstock.
Now, Gerbert, or Fenstock, did march with these guys at Unite the Right.
He has long been a Affiliate of theirs.
He used to host a podcast called the fatherland which was kind of a similar kind of Nazi dad's podcast You know back in the kind of Yep, I'm in full house.
It's sort of like a kind of bringing that back after Gerbert himself was a shit-can because it turned out that he had a He was working full-time at the U.S.
State Department in a fairly high-up position with actual security clearance, and then he was exposed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as being a close affiliate of the Nazi guys that you just heard.
He was apparently there out on the day, and he did a full episode of Full House, kind of talking to some of the other guys who were in that room.
And kind of talking about kind of the meaning of it.
Now, interestingly, Fenstock or Gerber does not identify in any of these sort of public comments that he's made as being part of the National Justice Party.
It seems like they're trying to sort of rhetorically divide, you know, kind of TRS or the Daily Shoah or sort of like that network from the party itself.
And that while like, Gerbert is making a podcast with TRS and that he attended this event.
He is not like a member of the National Justice Party.
It's also like these guys are not like planning to and they make this pretty explicit in kind of later interviews.
They're not.
Actively planning to run candidates like Mikey and Ike is not running for president in 2020 He is not that was never the plan.
The plan is to use the apparatus of a party as a way to Get their message out to larger audiences with the hope that You know social media platforms, etc will be less likely to ban you know kind of active political parties, but they're not even like trying to get like
FEC authorization like there's a there's a ton of paperwork that kind of comes along with that They're very cagey about their actual plans for this but it does seem to be something where they're planning to have like a more of a like a movement more of a like like it's it's a way of kind of spreading ideology as opposed to something that's actually like kind of reaching for any kind of real electoral power and they're very They're very savvy in the way that they're approaching that.
So it would amaze me if Gerbert, who actually does have an actual, like, background in politics, is not kind of deeply invested in this.
But he is kind of keeping his distance for now.
They say there are going to be more events after the election and kind of more stuff that, like, it's going to become more clear.
And so part of the reason I wanted to do this before the election was just to sort of, like, plant the flag now.
This is something that we should be paying attention to.
And we will definitely be kind of revisiting as some of the nebulosity becomes a little bit more... less nebulous, I guess.
Sorry, weird phrasing there.
But this is short.
It's one little bit, but it does kind of tell you a little bit about the crowd at this event.
The name, what I've named this clip is One Other Problem with the GOP.
And this is another, this is like maybe 30 minutes into the full clip.
So let's just play this now.
And 90% of the voters for that party are white!
Yet they feel no desire!
How many times have we heard, oh criminal justice reform, what is criminal justice reform?
First of all, everybody knows what he's talking about!
He's not talking about white people!
That's an appeal to blacks!
That's a direct appeal to blacks.
Oh, we're not going to put you in jail when you commit crimes anymore.
You think that's an appeal to white men?
No.
And it shows you that they are more comfortable making a moral appeal to black people on the basis that they will not punish them for crimes that they commit than they are appealing to white men on the basis of their existence.
Think about that.
The GOP would rather appeal to black criminals than to you.
Is that an organization you want to work with?
There's one other huge problem.
There's one other huge problem with the GOP.
You beat me to it.
So the really important thing about that clip, which, you know, apologies again for making you listen to too much of Mike Enoch ranting, not so much like what Mike Enoch says, but the bit of, you know, well, you know, there's just one more problem with the GOP and why we can't actually infiltrate Republican spaces.
And one of his pals gives you the reason why.
Yeah.
Yells it out there for you, and just tells you.
This is it.
This is it.
This is the thing.
This is the Jews.
And, you know, Enoch knows exactly what he's doing there.
So, moving on there, I know we're kind of running, we're already running a little bit long, so I just thought it was worthwhile to know people yelling about the Jews.
You actually hear people yelling about the Jews in the background of this.
To a significant degree, kind of over and over again during the recording.
It really can't be overstated, you know, how much that is the obsession of these fucking people.
Exactly, exactly.
One of the interesting things here, and I just want to highlight this, I've mentioned two people who are present on stage at this event, and all of the people who are there on stage have been doxxed by anti-fascists or who do kind of present themselves very openly as being the thing that they are.
And so I've mentioned Mikey Enoch and Eric Stryker as being kind of the seemingly kind of the two big names here.
But there is a thread from the Twitter account Anti-Fascist Alligator published a few days after or a couple of days after the video was released because the video wasn't released on the 15th.
It was released on, I think, the 19th.
But there is a thread on Twitter, and I have linked it here, where all these people have been doxed.
So we'll just kind of go through the list of people.
Eric Stryker is on the far left of the NJP and of the room.
Haha, funny.
Then there's this guy, Potato Smasher, whose real name is Michael McEvitt, who I don't know his kind of real identity all that well, but he is another big member of the Full House podcast.
He is deeply invested with the guy, Matthew Gerber, who we mentioned earlier.
So more evidence that Gerbert is more invested in the National Justice Party than maybe he wants to sort of portray publicly.
The next one is this guy, Tony Hovater.
Tony Hovater, who is a former member of the Traditionalist Workers Party.
He was the subject of a New York Times interview, which he made pasta.
Deeply humanizing.
Deeply humanizing.
He made pasta, and he had weird eyebrows.
And therefore, he had Mein Kampf on his bookshelf.
And that was all that we needed to know about Tony Hovater.
Really makes you think, doesn't it?
The fact that Hovater and Stryker, who are sort of like Hovater is part of the Traditionalist Workers Party, which is considered to be like kind of the Nazbol wing of the far right.
And Eric Stryker is sort of the king of the Nazbols.
The fact that both of these people are invested in the National Justice Party has made many people within the movement asking questions about it, wonder if it is like an explicitly Nazbol party.
Which Mikey and I have had to refute several times including he went on Mark Collette's, Mark Collette is an English former member of the what's called the BNP, former member of the BNP back when that was the thing that existed who has been invested in white nationalism in your country for 20 years and who we might do a podcast episode about.
Yes, I know Mark Collette of old.
We might we might do a podcast episode about him at some point in the next year I think that would be a fun one to do because I've been kind of Tracking him a little more closely lately.
We try to keep this we're gonna keep this in my neck of the woods So it's a little more American focus, but I think I'm Mark Colette episode would be worth doing I think it might be interesting to look into some of the The Nazis on on on my side of the pond.
Yeah.
Yeah, we do get Mark Coletta I remember very clearly from a Channel 4 documentary that I actually watched on its original broadcast a long time ago.
I think I think it was actually called young Nazi and proud.
Oh nice He's he's doing, you know, he's doing the sort of respectability shtick, you know And then when he doesn't think the cameras on him, he's talking about how he yeah He had my as the Third Reich and Hitler and everything and it's all caught on camera.
That's what that's my main association with Marc Collette.
Yeah Awesome.
Yeah, we should definitely do that at some point.
So the next person after so you've got Stryker, formerly of the Daily Stormer.
You've got this guy deeply invested with Coach Fenstock.
You've got a former member of the TWP and a former founding member of the TWP.
And then the next one is Greg Conte.
Now, Greg Conte used to be a lacrosse coach at a Catholic girls' school until it turned out that his Nazi activities became clear to everyone.
But he's also a personal friend of Richard Spencer, and was deeply in Spencer's camp of like, we're above it all, we're not egalitarians, we are the ruling class of this movement, and everybody should be listening to us.
Until apparently those two had a falling out of the details of which I'm not like completely familiar because I haven't really been tracking Spencer that closely since he kind of went off into You know his divorce land and probably beating his wife Sorry, I'm not trying to make a joke out of that I'm just saying like he was doing some there's some deeply fucked up shit that like does not get made public But which is pretty obvious if you read between the lines of any of this stuff Yeah Yep, yep, yep.
So – and in fact, we're going to hear – Greg Conti's name gets mentioned here in our kind of long clip we're going to end the episode on.
So – but Greg Conti has moved away from Richard Spencer's crowd.
And the big clip that people might remember him from is there's a clip of Richard Spencer saying, like, but we don't believe in free speech.
And then another guy going like, no, no, we don't.
That's kind of like a big famous clip that kind of got shared around a couple of years ago.
Well, Greg Conte was the other person in that clip.
So, you know, just so in case anybody remembers that.
And then there's the guy standing behind Richard Spencer going, yeah, exactly, exactly.
And then the other kind of two guys, other than Mike Enoch, are a father and son team, Warren and Alan Balog.
And Alan Balrog, the father, there are photos of him with Dr. William Luther Pierce, author of the Turner Diaries, back in the day.
And he has been described as kind of like the Gandalf of the National Justice Party.
So that's all fine.
Which is ironic, because his name sounds like Balrog.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And, you know, so Antifa Alligator is just going to say, like, not much is known about Warren.
I don't know anything about Warren.
But he did marry Emily Ucas, who is one of the vilest people who has been associated with this movement, who is not actually a siege pill accelerationist Nazi, and about whom we will definitely do an episode at some point.
But she's been laying low for a while.
So You've got it's it's a big like one of the things that I find interesting here and something that I'm trying to sort of highlight by By kind of inclination or, you know, not explicitly.
But one of the things that is interesting about this cast of characters is that this is sort of a group of people from various factions of what used to be called the alt-right, who've all been involved in this for a while, who are all sort of coming together as a way of building something new from the various factions around a shared political identity.
The right?
whom are all on the right it's like they're trying to unite the right the right yeah yeah so um i think it's i'm getting deja vu right Right.
Everything's coming full circle.
So, one of the things, you know, and this is something that Anti-Vaxxers Alligator, and I do recommend this thread, I apologize for, I've kind of ripped it off here, just kind of read bits and pieces of it, so I'm not trying to plagiarize.
Link it in the show notes, go check out the thread.
Anti-Vaxxers Alligator, definitely worth a follow.
He's a great guy.
I don't actually know, I actually don't know this person's gender.
If I'm wrong on that, I apologize, and please let me know.
But he points out, like, so what is the importance of the National Justice Party?
And saying, like, this is probably going to go nowhere, and certainly electorally this is going to go nowhere.
But what's interesting here, and which I think we're going to kind of get into after we kind of listen to the next clip, is these are all people who have been invested in this stuff for a while.
This is not like people who have been in this for six months.
Or who have been kind of doing this for a little while and who are frustrated.
This is like a deliberate attempt to build something that has a little bit more staying power, that is doing something more than just kind of shitposting online.
It is an attempt to do something that is kind of like politically active in some way.
And some of these people do have like legitimate political contacts within like full-fledged You know, like powerful government positions.
And so while there's kind of sitting on the outside now, and while like the Trump administration is probably, I'm not going to make that prediction.
It does look like more people have intended to vote for Joe Biden than have intended to vote for Donald Trump.
On Tuesday, November 3rd, 2020, even accounting for the bullshit that is the Electoral College and voter suppression and all that sort of thing, it does appear as if If the election goes the way that we would normally expect it to go, that Joe Biden will be the winner of the election based on everything that we have seen over the course of the last six months or so.
Whether that means Joe Biden will be president in 2021 or not, very much an open question at this point!
Very much, yeah.
We will talk about this more- As if, you know, the person who gets the most votes, as if that's- As if that matters.
As if that has anything to do with anything.
Come on, this is a democracy, don't be silly.
We will talk about this in more detail next week, I'm sure.
So, I would like to kind of take that and just use this opportunity to say, not everyone is really on board with this whole National Justice Party thing.
And one of the people, one of the people who is not on board with this and has really trenchant observations about this is Richard Spencer, who... Oh yes, yes.
Piercing political analyst Richard Spencer.
Who is actually like in terms of like what I find so a backstory on this clip.
This is a clip.
This is a conversation between a live stream that Richard Spencer did with somebody named Hunter Wallace who we discussed to some degree in our episode on the Southern Nationalists, but who Probably deserves a full episode.
I mean he's done some stuff with like Chris Cantwell He's been you know, he's someone who is like kind of an interesting figure but often sort of a background figure But what's interesting about Hunter Wallace and his real name is Brad Griffin is a he's a completely vile Ideologically person like he's he's he's really really he's one of the like ideologically.
He's one of the worst of the worst like he's kind of vaguely pro-slavery and And most of them won't even kind of go that far.
Like, even the full-fledged Nazis won't kind of go, like, well, maybe we just need to own people again, you know?
And Hunter Wallace is definitely sort of, like, tended in that direction.
So he does kind of get to be on my, like, shit list as being like, yeah, no, I listened to that episode of Southern Nationalist Radio, Brad, if you tend to listen to this.
I have it archived, even though it's no longer available online.
So don't try to sue me about that statement.
Believe me, I have it.
It's fine.
We have the receipts.
But he's also a, and something that's interesting to me about Hunter Wallace, or Brad Griffin, is that he and I grew up a few counties away from each other.
And so I do listen to his accent and he reminds me of like so many kids that I grew up with.
That's a personal thing, doesn't really have anything to do with like what we're talking about.
But he also has a degree in political science.
I believe from the University of Alabama, and is someone who has some knowledge of history, like a legitimate good reading of history.
Also, Richard Spencer was getting a master's degree, I think he had a master's degree and was working on a PhD at Duke.
These are educated people.
These are people who are not, like, completely ignorant.
These are people who have reasonable insights, who read it through a completely twisted bullshit lens.
But have reasonable insights on, like, American history.
And that's kind of what's interesting about kind of what Richard Spencer's doing these days.
I'm actually thinking about doing a podcast episode that's just like, what's Richard Spencer up to in 2020?
Because there is some kind of, like, interesting dynamics kind of going on there.
And some of his current friends are, like, it's There's a lot of there's some comedy and there's some interest there and like maybe we'll do that if like the news cycle slows down long enough for me to like prep that.
I'm up for that.
That sounds interesting.
No, it would be it would be very interesting.
There's a lot of but I'd have to like, you know, kind of go through and like pull a lot of stuff from it.
But I'd have to actually do some work.
I'd have to do some work.
Like, as opposed to the normal level of work I do, just tracking this idly, I'd have to go, like, actively go and pull stuff.
It is funny, like, when I do these, I'm like, oh, I've got to go back to August and re-listen to, oh, ten hours of people talking in order to pull clips.
That's kind of what doing clip episodes means at this point.
So anyway.
Richard Spencer did this full episode with Hunter Wallace about, quote unquote, third parties.
That's the sort of official topic.
And this is maybe a week after, a few days after the video dropped of the National Justice Party release, and maybe a week or so after.
The show in the barn.
After they actually recorded it.
And it's very clear that they needed to talk about the National Justice Party.
But they do go into not just sort of the history of like third parties and like kind of political realignments in the United States.
And have some kind of, again, some interesting things to say about like how you spread like political movements and how like people can change, how you can use electoralism.
Or how you can use like direct action and various kind of ideological moves in order to shift like electoral politics.
Like kind of like legitimate insights that you would get from people who are actually professionals who understand political science.
But a deep history of – The white nationalist movement because these two guys have both been in this since like 2007 or 2008.
They've known each other for over 10 years at the time of this recording.
They even referenced that in their own like history and their own history with each other and how they didn't like each other at first but it was because of a misidentification because Richard Spencer thought that Hunter Wallace was also this other guy Who was like a dipshit to him online because he thought it was just one of his socks.
And listening to this, like... Oh, it's sweet.
It's like a meet cute.
I would recommend that people listen to this episode, except it's no longer available online because Richard Spencer, since it's recording, got deplatformed.
He hasn't bothered to reupload this or never saved the audio possibly But he hasn't bothered to reupload this audio, and I can't find it online anywhere I just happen to have saved it because I have all of this stuff, so it's fine so I've taken about a 10 minute clip of this episode starting at about the 46 minute mark and I've edited it down to four minutes and I We're just good.
Let's just listen.
I think it's worth listening and then we'll wrap up.
I think it's worth doing that.
So.
Okay.
All right.
Let's go.
It's just, I think my fundamental issue is, I just like the, I mean, we can talk about the Dixie Grats a little bit later, but I mean, and I'm sorry if this is going to get like a little divisive or personal, but it's, it's the TRS aspect of it.
And, What I see from what they're creating is yet another movement click, and I have seen all of these.
All of these, and just speaking purely personally here, so anyone else who's not me can disagree.
These clicks that arose, particularly after Charlottesville, I will never be welcome, and they do not Help me in any fashion.
And Antifa, everyone who says they're a bunch of idiots on drugs, okay, that is true for a lot of them.
But many of them are not.
They're not idiots.
They're ruthless.
They are patient.
They will dox people a year after they got the information on them.
They will infiltrate groups and dox them.
We do not have strength in numbers.
If you are creating these groups with a lot of people in it, the National Justice Party now has a target on its back.
And it is basically, because of the mindset of TRS and Greg Conte, they're going to unite all the groups.
We're going to have this egalitarian ethos.
I'm seeing it coming, which is that you will have serious infiltration and then doxing, but then you won't really gain anything from it.
And the problem with TRS is that they're internet arguers.
And they get these things, they have taken, much like Fuentes, they take multiple different positions over and over again.
And they'll return to ones from a few years ago and then they'll have a new one and so on.
It's whatever's the new argument and whatever is the temperature in the room of their people.
Well, I don't really trust that kind of mentality.
And if you listen to your forum, they're gonna lead you down wrong paths.
And if you want to appeal to them, they are going... Groupthink is real.
Groupthink can be highly detrimental.
Like, IE slash AIM, it's now gone.
Because they listened to the forum, and they said, oh, we're American nationalists now, and so everyone, no one will attack us.
You know, Richard Spencer's cringe.
We're gonna be beloved.
Well, you play that out, and everyone gets doxxed, and there's a new paradigm that people get in.
TRS is very similar.
And so, I do not trust it.
I do not think that TRS is a... Like, they appeal... Like, the vulgarity of TRS is not a bug.
It's a feature.
And Mike is smart.
I will actually grant him that, although he has these problems.
The vulgarity of TRS will... That is the feature of their organization.
That is what attracts people.
That It hits a ceiling really quickly in terms of actually projecting plausibility and so on.
And all that stuff that they do is not going to fly.
And I'm sorry to say this, but it just isn't going to fly.
And so you're creating this thing that has very little plausibility in my mind, And in the mind of intelligent people, and that is appealing to people who might very well get thrown in front of the train.
When Richard Spencer is the voice of fucking reason, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's So let's be clear what Spencer is saying here, because I just want to put this in a couple of sentences.
Richard Spencer is pointing out, A, you're creating a little cliquey group of all your friends, that everybody who's not your friend is going to be cut out.
A, and so it's just going to be you and the people that you...
I think that's like the one thing that, like, it does seem like they are trying to kind of pull from various, like, earlier factions.
And so, like, if I were a white nationalist, like, criticizing this from that perspective, who actually wanted them to succeed, I might say, like, maybe that feels like maybe that's a little bit of a, like, you know, kind of a personal distrust of Enoch.
Although Spencer was, like, really good friends with Enoch, kind of back in the days before Unite the Right, and appeared on the show, like, laughing and joking along with him, like, plenty of times.
And it's only since Spencer has been, like, cut out of, like, everybody's friend groups because everybody fucking hates him that he's, you know, kind of been led to this level of animosity for them.
But so the criticisms are you're creating a new clique group.
It's not going to go anywhere because it's just you and your buddies.
Two, Antifa's gonna get in your shit, and they're gonna dox everybody.
Because Antifa always doxes, Antifa does that.
Like, Richard Spencer is very aware, he is very very aware of what antifascists are capable of, right?
Yeah?
Yeah.
It's interesting, you know, when you hear them talking, and the thing they're afraid of is not reasoned debate with liberals, the thing they're afraid of is Antifa doxing them.
Antifa will get in your shit.
You've created a big target on yourself.
You know that Antifa is interested in you.
In fact, in the Full House episode, On like six occasions, Coach Fenstock aka Matthew Q. Gerbert says, we know the enemy is listening.
The enemy is listening.
The enemy is interested.
We are.
And he even refers to it as the enemy.
The enemy is interested.
Yes, it turns out the enemy is interested in you.
The enemy knows all your stuff.
It turns out that when you post things publicly, people can listen.
People can listen.
People know what you're doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm not going to say that I have personally infiltrated the National Justice Party, dot, dot, dot.
And three… Significant silence.
And three… TRS is built on this kind of 2016, 2017-ish model of being the most vulgar thing imaginable as a way of getting super racist teenagers who want to be the edgiest of the edgy invested in the movement through being more funny than their friends.
And that model doesn't necessarily scale to building a mass political movement.
No, well, Richard Spence is, I mean, you know, to be scrupulously fair to him, he's right about a lot of this.
Yeah, no, he's completely right.
Because he has actually learned something, clearly, from the mistakes they made.
What he's saying is absolutely, I mean, he was happy to go on Mike Enoch's show and laugh and joke with him back in that era, the 2015-2016 era, when it looked like that was the new thing, the wave of the future, you know, that was how you were going to recruit people.
Well, back when Mike Enoch was actually building a mass movement around himself and was actually building something new and original.
And doing something, you know, powerful for that movement, right.
And then, like, they completely crashed and burned after United Right, because anti-fascists beat the shit out of them in the streets.
Yeah, they tried to translate it into a movement on the ground, and it failed for two reasons.
Firstly, anti-fascists got up all in their shit and fucked them up.
And secondly, they get together and they squabble and they fight and they commit terrorism.
These people that they've recruited with exactly these sorts of shows that look like the Wave of the Future, you know, it recruits people like James Alex Fields and it gets them to show up and drive their cars into crowds of people who were there, you know, protesting against the presence of the fascists in their neighbourhood.
So yeah, Richard Spencer saw it fail, you know, to his credit, and I hate to even say that phrase, but he saw that it failed and he saw why, and he's seeing them trying the same thing again.
Exactly.
I mean, you know.
Again, when Richard Spencer is the voice of reason, and like, I'm not, like, I'm not trying to say, like, oh, Richard Spencer, I'm a fan, like, he's a fucking disgusting human being.
Yeah, fuck Richard Spencer.
With, like, completely fucking awful ideology.
It's a smear of excrement.
Fuck it.
But we can acknowledge when he has, when he's viewing something rightly.
You know, like, Richard Spencer endorsed Joe Biden for the 2020 election.
Because he correctly recognized that Donald Trump is not doing what Richard Spencer wants him to do to the degree that he wants him to.
And also that Joe Biden will actually be like a competent administrator of the U.S.
government and might actually do something realistically about the coronavirus.
You know, it's not like it's not like I'm not I'm not trying to like Stan Richard Spencer here I'm just saying like I mean people do kind of like do the like Richard Spencer is like, oh, he's just an edge Lord He's just after they're doing like an irony point is like no once you want to listen to these guys They actually do say what they mean and I think that like again I play that long clip because it is Richard Spencer Petulantly and childishly being cut out of like the cool kids club for the last couple of years and being off in his own little world and
Talking to fucking Ed Dutton, of all fucking things, and I know no one listening to this knows who Ed Dutton is, but I know who Ed Dutton is, and if I was Richard Spencer, I would not want to be talking to Ed Dutton.
All right?
It's a fucking dipshit loser in Finland.
Anyway, he's a fucking disgusting piece of shit.
Anyway, we will do an episode about it, I promise.
It'll be fine.
The other thing he says in that, which I think is interesting, is that he talks about how, you know, listening to the forum and groupthink, forum groupthink, you know.
And again, that's kind of gesturing at one of the key problems that caused their nascent movement to fly apart.
And it's also very true.
Richard Spencer, I think, for everything you can say about him, and as I say, he's a despicable little bag of shit, he's actually trying to be serious about building some sort of mass political presence for this viewpoint.
And I think he's, you know, he's again, he's right that people like Enoch are in it for the clickiness and the just following the, you know, a different sort of click from the forum.
I mean, and Spencer is like someone with enough, again, political knowledge, and he's thinking of it in the long term.
I mean, one of the things I, I mean, we should, we're over 90 minutes at this point, so we should probably try to wrap it up pretty shortly.
But one of the things that's been really interesting is sort of this conversion of, Like the increasing disaffection of the TRS crew from anything resembling electoral politics.
Like they want to be in charge of the US political system, but they have no faith at all in the actual sort of like mechanisms of government as they exist.
And I think it's all sort of like, This big like shadows on a wall that's all sort of like created by the Jews and there's this We're gonna do a whole episode about Finkel think I think and just what's your whistle on that one go Google it if you if you're interested But it's it's it's a deeply kind of fucked up thing that I was going to try to work into like the framing of this But I decided to go in a different direction But yeah, no, I'm really interested to see what they do with this.
I think it's going to be a failure, largely because I think they're going to try to recreate kind of that 2017 energy with these kind of in-person rallies of their friends.
And I don't think they're going to be that successful, in large part because Enoch is very good at speaking to this deeply online audience that is already on board with him.
And in 2017, it felt like, if I go back now and listen to episodes from 2016 or 2017, It's a night and day difference in terms of like the ability of like kind of an ordinary person to kind of sit down and listen and follow along without Like, having this kind of deep background of this, like, years and years of meme history.
You know, like, in 2017, it was still kind of deeply, like, kind of insular.
Like, that's kind of the point of that whole thing, is that it is this, like, insular movement of people kind of sharing these kind of secret memes that mean things that don't necessarily mean on the surface level.
But in 2020, They're like six, you know, six orders of magnitude deeper than that.
Like, again, that, like, Golan Heights, Dolan Heights joke.
Like, imagine this, like, running into somebody in the grocery store and just, like, telling, like, saying, like, yeah, you know, the Golan Heights are now the Dolan Heights.
Nobody knows what that means.
No, no.
And yet, that's a big laugh line in the room where Yanaka's speaking, because this is a deeply invested thing.
And so, again, one of the things that maybe gets lost in my editing of that clip is that Richard Spencer is also talking about egalitarianism, in the sense of listening to your mass audience and going where the audience wants to go.
And what Spencer means is like, no, there are men, there are, there are like the great leaders or the great men of history of which Richard Spencer believes he is one of them and probably believes Hunter Wallace is sort of his like kind of lapdog or something.
But Richard Spencer believes that you need men of like great power and great ability and great, you know, just kind of great virtue in the sense of being like men of gold who are going to like lead the masses.
into the direction that they choose.
And so the idea of listening to your mass audience is kind of like this kind of fundamentally flawed and therefore egalitarian project, as opposed to I'm a comedian following where my audience leads me.
Yeah.
And so I want to wrap up here and just kind of say something that I actually said on the Embrace the Void podcast, which is like in 2016, the conservative meme kind of came to like real prominence.
It came to be this thing that, you know, it was like set on like, you know, kind of like Right-wing blogs, and that's the thing that came directly from the TRS forums.
It kind of burbled up from the forums into, maybe from 4chan originally, but it kind of came from the forums up to where the TRS guys were using it, and they deliberately spread it at a certain particular moment using Twitter and using social media feeds into something like mainstream political discourse, and it blew up and it became a term That four years later, you and I can use, at least to our audience, who sort of understand vaguely what it means, at least.
It had like a real staying power.
Thinklethink, which they've been pushing for the last fucking year on every fucking episode, has had no impact at all on anything that anyone outside the TRS network is saying.
And this tells you a lot.
No traction.
And this tells you a lot about where TRS is going, despite the fact that Thinklethink is probably When we do the full episode about it, like, outside of its, like, if we can divorce it from its anti-Semitic, um, well, divorce it from its anti-Semitism, which it just is fundamentally, but if you sort of, like, reframe it slightly, it actually is more useful as a frame of understanding real reality than Cuckservative ever was.
Intriguing.
Okay, you're going to have to explain this to me.
Basically the whole idea is, I'll summarize it very briefly here and we'll go into it in much more detail in a future episode, but the idea is there was a particular political operative in the 1960s and 70s named Arthur Finkelstein who coined the term, or who kind of created the idea of using social issues as a wedge to drive people apart.
And so you use these social issues as a way of distracting from the real policies that you're using to kind of fuck people over?
And you use it as a way of kind of getting, like, your guy, your Republican candidate elected.
And so you avoid kind of, like, the more, like, kind of direct economic thing, because what you're really doing is fighting over people economically, and so you give them gay marriage, or you give them, you know, segregation, or you give them etc.
etc.
Well, I wasn't aware that that had been invented.
I thought that was just something that we'd always had.
It seems to have been a particular project, and I haven't done the deep dive on Arthur Finkelstein, so to get the TRS version of Arthur Finkelstein separate from the real Arthur Finkelstein, but based on my understanding of it, he was a political operative using a political messaging technique as a way of getting Republicans elected.
But the fact that he rejected outright Nazism as an overt thing that you would just say in public means that he was really just a filthy Jew who was using Jewish mind tricks to subvert the white race.
That's what Finklethink means, right?
And yet, the actual idea that, like, political operatives use nonsense political issues as a way of, like, manipulating mass electors in order to get their political candidates elected is actually a really useful thing!
It's actually a thing that actually happened.
This is a thing that Arthur Finkelstein and plenty of other people on both sides of the political aisle actually do all the time.
It's really distasteful, it's really disgusting, but they absolutely do it all the time in order to get their candidates elected, in order to push real issues It's very real.
It's just not like a Jewish conspiracy to crush the white race.
So, you know, anyway, bonus, a little content about Finkelthink, you know.
OK, we'll come back to that.
If we could do it in five minutes, go ahead.
The guy's actual significance is that he sort of codified the idea of the Republican Party using social issues as wedges.
As I understand it.
Yeah, okay, while they proceed with their economic agenda, etc, etc.
They get people to vote for them, you know, essentially against their economic interests on the basis of talk about values and stuff like that.
Well, and so effectively, like you do, like the Libertarian Party, like the, quote-unquote, the Libertarian Party, by which I mean the right libertarian anarcho-capitalists, etc, etc.
It was found in the 70s as a way of like cutting regulations so that like you know billionaires could get tax cuts and you could cut regulations on your businesses so you could pollute rivers etc etc but the way you sell that to people is you go like hey weed and sex and like don't you just want to be free etc?
Sure but this guy yeah I get that but this guy Finkelstein he's the guy who sort of codified it for the republicans as a strategy is that right?
That seems that's From what I understand at this point from listening to Nazis whine about him for several months or a year, yes, that seems to be the thing.
Although, again, I have not done the appropriate deep dive to really get the context on it.
They use him to mean, like, a Jewish conspiracy.
Right.
To do what?
The Jewish conspiracy is, it's essentially the same as the kosher sandwich, which we've described before.
And so the idea of the kosher sandwich is you create these kind of like bumpers on the edge of your political discourse.
And, you know, you create like sort of a, um, The range of acceptable opinion.
A range of acceptable opinion, but also like sort of an issue that people can either be like pro, like for or against, but in no case do you blame the Jews, right?
But in reality, in their vision of this, there are Jews on both sides of the issues, sort of like controlling the puppet strings, and like either way, like whichever side
of the Finkel thing you choose, whether you are pro or against abortion, whether you're pro or against a tax cut or the marginal tax rate, etc., whether you are, you know, whatever version of this thing you accept, ultimately, you're still within the Jewish frame that's ultimately controlling everything.
And the whole point of the Finkel Think, and their vision of it, is to prevent you, as a Gentile, from understanding that you're ultimately being, like, everything that you believe about politics is being controlled by the shadowy figures behind the curtains, a.e.
the Jews.
Right, so basically they're just describing something that is real, i.e.
the Republicans, and more broadly, people like the Republicans, will push social issues, divisive social issues, to distract you from the fact that they're pushing aggressive, anti-working class, neoliberal economic policies, etc.
They're describing that, but they're just saying it's the Jews doing it all.
That's basically it.
When you say it like that, it sounds really simple, as if I shouldn't have spent the last many years of my life trying to understand the intricacies of it.
Because you are absolutely correct, yes.
Yeah, but this is it.
I was just trying to parse what they think it means.
When they talk about this phenomenon and they call it Finkel-think, I was thinking, well, how do they account for the underlying mechanism of the thing that's actually happening?
But, of course, I was being foolish there, because they account for it in the same way they account for everything.
It's just the Jews doing it all.
It's just the Jews trying to control you, and there's a deep... And this is where, like, the whole idea of, like, introducing Finkelthink into this, like, into this whole idea, into, like, the National Justice Party, for instance.
The whole idea of, like, the reason this is relevant is the National Justice Party is built on years of memes where they've spent, like, years in their little bubble convincing each other about, like, deeply conspiratorial kind of complex wheels-within-wheels of
You know, the Jews controlling it all, and we're all just kind of, like, watching shadows on a wall, and, like, the entire, like, world, everything that we see outside of, like, our existence, everything that's in the news, everything that's in the media, everything that's anywhere outside of, like, our own little, like, group is ultimately manipulated, and it's ultimately just kind of fake, like, on a basic level.
And that goes to like everything that we understand from history, everything that we understand, you know, everything, everything.
It's all fake because it's all ultimately mediated through this lens of the Jews, and they control every possible perspective except for the one that is like fundamentally anti-Semitic, right?
And so the only way that you get beyond The Finkel thing.
The only way that you can become a real thinking adult, the only way that you can become a real political actor is to embrace the genocide of the Jews.
Got it.
Finklethink, bonus Finklethink episode at the end of this one.
We'll do a full one at some point in the future, when I have a bit more time to prepare.
But yeah, no, that's the... I told you it was going to be an old school episode where Daniel explains nasty, ridiculous people to me, and you got what we promised!
Which, yeah, just, you know, I wasn't planning to do the Finkelstein thing.
I apologize for kind of winging it just a little bit because I'm sure I got some of the details slightly off there.
But yeah, no, that's... We'll come back to it.
Yeah, we'll do a full episode on it down the line a little bit.
Maybe next month.
But yeah, yeah.
Okay, great.
You know, I did, I did, you know, I have, um, after I did the Embrace the Void podcast, I did get a bunch of people, um, uh, follow me, like new followers and stuff, and I did get some people going like, uh, you know, kind of tagging me or tagging the IDSGpod thing and kind of going like, oh yeah, I love the, I love the, yeah, I love that podcast, it's great, um, I listened to it for a while, but then I had to stop for my own sanity.
Um, like, yeah, no, I, I understand, I don't blame, I don't blame you, I don't blame you, please, you know, it's fine.
Yeah, no, good plan.
Yeah.
You know, use sparingly.
That's my advice with our product.
Definitely.
Use responsibly.
That's it.
Makes me worry about the damage that, you know, editing and therefore listening to every episode multiple times has done to my brain.
Yeah, I worry about you, ultimately.
I'm too far gone to be worried about.
Yeah, you're beyond help.
These days, the things that are queuing up to fuck over my brain, this podcast's very low down the list.
Right, right.
Okay, so that was episode 70.
Thank you for listening.
Not quite as nice as episode 69, but how could it be without Talia?
Talia was great, yeah.
She was great.
I did appreciate it.
I mean, I will say, you know, it was nice having Hilary and Talia and Becca Lewis a couple of back.
It was very nice to have kind of a run of episodes with really great guests.
I really did appreciate that.
Not that I don't love talking to you every week as well.
I do think we're going to move back to a little more IDSG classic for the next month or two, just to re-figure out our dynamic here.
I think that'll be worthwhile.
I do have some guests who are planning to come on.
That'll be fun, but it is always nice to have guests because, my goodness, our guests have by and large been bloody great.
Okay, and our listeners are bloody great as well.
Thank you for listening, listeners.
And thank you for doing what you do when you share and retweet and tell us about how great we are and tell other people about how great we are.
That's even better.
And help us out in any way you can.
You are amazing.
Thank you so much.
And so do we know what the next episode is going to be?
Episode 71?
Apart from it being Episode 71, what's it going to be?
It'll be election-related.
Oh, of course it will.
Yeah, I was forgetting.
Well, it's late where you are.
I mean, it's very late where you are, so, you know, that's fine.
Blessed amnesia there for just a second or two.
Okay.
It happens.
That was Episode 70.
70. Cheers.
That was I Don't Speak German.
Thanks for listening.
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