I Don't Speak German, Episode 21: Sex and Gender and Nazis (with CV Vitolo-Haddad)
Another great guest this week. Daniel is joined by CV Vitolo-Haddad to talk about sex, gender, misogyny, and transmisogyny on the far right. (Note: This is late; sorry about that. Also, we encountered technical difficulties with this one. It's been cleaned up as much as possible and is perfectly listenable if you're prepared to briefly tolerate some occasional background noise.) All sorts of content warnings. * Show Notes: CV can be found on Twitter at @notcolloquial CV's Medium CV's YouTube CV Vitolo-Haddad, "The Blood of Patriots: Symbolic Violence and 'The West'" Warski Live, "Alt-Hype vs CV- Does Race Exist?" Halsey News: "Brian Hendrix vs. CV: Does White Privilege exist?" Ozia Media: "Debating CV Over the Proud Boys" Honest Red, "TBH: Low Hanging Fruit (Capitalism vs. Socialism)" bell hooks, "The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love"
Alright, and welcome to I Don't Speak German, episode 21.
This is the podcast where I, Daniel Harper, talk to mostly my buddy Jack Graham about Nazi shit in their podcast and YouTube videos, but again, he was too lazy to show up, so I have another guest.
Going along with the pattern, I always like to bring on guests who are much more erudite and knowledgeable and, dare I say, charming than I am.
And so today I am joined by someone I've been talking to online for a while, but I've only recently gotten to actually meet, and recently I mean in the last 10 minutes, Sivy Vatola-Hadad.
Sivy, welcome to the show.
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
No, I've been wanting to do this for a while, and I hope, I mean, you've got so much knowledge on these topics that I think this will, hopefully, if you have a good experience here, this will not be the last time.
So, yeah, Stevie, just for people who may not know who you are and what you do, I'd like, and since I'm a terrible host, would you mind kind of introducing yourself and kind of telling us a little bit about your background and kind of what you do?
Sure, so I'm a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
I'm in the Journalism and Mass Communication Department there.
I study political communication broadly, particularly as it relates to science and sort of how science gets mobilized for politics, you know, either There are a lot of different ways that can happen, but I am mostly fascinated right now with science being used in public argument about people and rights.
Looking at quantitative measurements of how people deserve rights or how we quantify and look at rights through a scientific lens is mostly what I'm studying right now.
Awesome, and I assume you'll give me a whole lot of reading material that both I can read and the audience can.
I can get caught up on all the stuff that you have published to date.
I would be happy to, yeah.
Okay.
So today we are going to be talking broadly about gender issues in what we call the alt-right and white nationalism, the far-right, however we want to define those terms, and particularly misogyny and trans misogyny.
This is a subject I've been wanting to cover for a while because it's very much pertinent in these kinds of spaces, but I did not think that two cis men should be the ones to have that conversation.
Although we do kind of ride the line of uncomfortable topics anyway.
But before we get into that, I actually did want to kind of mention a topic that is of interest to our audience.
And that is that you're known for kind of going on debates with various far-right figures, mostly on YouTube from what I've seen.
I watched a couple of those in preparation for this episode.
I think there's a debate about whether that's a good thing to do or not, and so I was wondering if you'd like to express your feelings on that and give us a little bit of feedback on why you think – because generally the context is don't debate fascists, but you obviously have and do so quite well.
So I'm wondering if you could speak on that issue briefly.
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the hesitancy around debate and debating fascists is very reasonable.
I think I would slightly amend it to don't debate fascists unless you're going to win, you know?
Sure.
Well, I mean, I hate to say, I mean, you know, you did debate the intellectual powerhouse that was Andy Warski, and I just don't, you know, my hat's off to you.
I don't know how you could possibly come out of that unscathed, you know, with such a such a such towering intellectual Well, I think that, you know, people are right to point out that there are a bunch of things that are not very worthwhile to debate.
And, you know, I think that that's very fair.
For example, people in the trans community, you often hear people say, you know, I'm not going to debate you over my humanity.
And I think that's a well-impulsed thought, and I mostly agree with it.
I wouldn't debate someone over my own humanity, and I've gone on a couple of right-wing shows and talked about trans issues.
I won't debate my humanity because honestly it doesn't really matter whether or not you think I'm a human.
I'm perfectly fine to not be a human, but it doesn't mean that I deserve to exist on the Earth any less, and it doesn't give anyone coercive authority over me if I'm not human, so I'm not interested in debating that question because it's not particularly important to me and the way that I carry my politics.
So I think that Figuring out what kinds of questions are worthwhile to debate and treating debate as what it is, which is a tactic for Controlling public discourse in a particular way, you know Which is which is something very real right debate and discourse do exert control over the way that people think and so I certainly wouldn't want to abdicate all of the discursive control to the right I think it's important that we on the left maintain our own Capacity to be engaged in the conversations people are happening.
Otherwise, we lose relevance entirely which can be a big problem And so I think for me, that's where a lot of my own enjoyment comes from, is kind of being able to put a voice to a lot of the issues that leftists care a lot about, that the right is just under misconceptions about what we believe primarily.
Sure.
I mean, do you think, have you, I mean this is hard to quantify, I'm not asking for you to quantify, but do you think that you've gotten positive response?
Yeah.
Do you have kind of far-right people or people who are maybe on that trajectory who say, hey, I listened to what you had to say and actually, you know, JFK are you happy as a dipshit?
Yeah, I keep a folder of the conversion stories, which when I feel really bad about myself or really upset, I very much enjoy going to that and getting a little bit of a self-esteem boost on bad days.
But yeah, there definitely are people who... I mean, in some I have... some it was very quick.
There were some people who I get emails after I do a debate that say, I'd been on the fence about this stuff, and I just hadn't really heard the other side of it.
That made a ton of sense to me when you said it, and so, you know, thank you for educating me about that so that, you know, I didn't think all of these stupid things.
So there are some of that, but what it much more frequently is, is over the course of a year, having gone on six or seven or eight different podcasts and building a relationship with people, because ultimately, whether or not someone is going to believe what you have to say has to do, first and foremost, with whether whether or not someone is going to believe what you have to say has to do, And if they think that you're someone who's believable, otherwise, everything you say may be very persuasive, and they'll just think you're lying.
And that's not particularly helpful.
So I try to build relationships as much as possible with an audience when I can.
And more of the people who have not just flipped to the left, but I think flipped to a version of politics that I can see my own influence in comes much more frequently from people who have seen me a couple times.
Wonderful, yeah, no.
I mean, that makes perfect sense to me.
I mean, I feel like it's something that, I mean, I've said this on the show, I shouldn't listen to a whole lot of it, but I do think that, you know, there is sort of a, you know, don't talk to them, talk about them, you know, that sort of thing.
I mean, this, ultimately, you know, I've been involved in kind of, like, talking about and to kind of far-right people.
For almost 20 years at this point.
You know, I got started on arguing against creationists in like 2003.
And I think that I just have very little patience for it at this point.
So it is delightful for me to see somebody who comes at it with that kind of energy and is really kind of able to do it well.
Whereas I think, you know, what I like to do here is more engage with the ideas, make it clear that I'm engaging with them honestly, but also not to have to, like, get into the sort of rhetorical back and forth that a debate just kind of requires.
So, anyway, I think it's wonderful and I encourage you to keep doing it.
But, yeah, I think there's a lot, too, what you had to say there about the tactics and the methodologies and what we should and shouldn't be doing when we engage in that kind of dialogue.
I think too, you know, the institutional obligation is a little bit different and this is something that academics definitely don't want to talk to graduate students about or talk to the public about, which is unfortunate because graduate students are the ones sort of realizing this and at the front line of We do owe something to the public, and we also owe something to the people we study in really direct ways.
As an ethnographer, as someone who's writing about a community, I was at a conference in Berkeley a couple weeks ago, and I was live tweeting the conference and all the presentations.
It was about right-wing studies, and I was presenting research about the Proud Boys.
And one of the people who, you know, is not affiliated with anything about my research, but is in the, you know, kind of black pill community, sent me a message and was like, it is really weird to see yourself studied by people, you know, you've never really had that feeling before.
And it really made me think back to, which is something I often think about when I'm doing this research, is those old colonial ethnographies that started this whole hell world.
You know, the early Enlightenment philosophers who would go into communities and would have no communication with them, they would be outsiders, and most of all they would be, you know, they would harbor a lot of antipathy towards these communities or disgust or disdain in some way, and that's never the relationship I want to have with the people who A, make my career possible, like literally my job and the material way that I sustain myself is from the knowledge that I get from these communities.
But B, I don't want to be talking about people and they have no right to refute it, have no right to communicate their feelings about the things I am saying about them.
And when you're in an institutional position like a university, you gain credibility from that role.
And so to me it would be deeply unethical to refuse to engage with the communities that I'm writing about.
Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense.
Me, I'm just some dickhead on the internet, so, you know, I have no institutional power whatsoever.
And most of the people I talk about have much bigger platforms than I do, so I don't, you know, I... You know, there is a different positionality there, obviously, and just the material conditions are different, so... Yeah, no, that's great.
Do you have any advice for anyone who might want to get involved in kind of doing these kind of debates and doing them properly?
Yeah, I would say you should definitely practice a lot and you should be really sure that the debate you're going to have is a meaningful one and also one that you can afford to lose even if you don't think you're going to.
So, for example, I will have the debate against capitalists all day that capitalism is a shit-tier ideology and has outlived its usefulness by several hundred years.
I'll have that debate constantly because most people believe That capitalism is at minimum a decent economic system.
And so when the majority of people believe it, you know, whether or not I lose, it's a drop in the bucket.
And so thinking about and getting practice with debating things that actually matter to the majority of people, where the left is in the minority of opinion and we really have a large obligation to build up kind of public sentiment towards our ideas and help people understand what it is, you know, that we believe.
Sure, no, that makes perfect sense.
So yeah, that said, I think that's our warm-up here.
I just wanted to have that little chat there.
So I did want to move into our main topic and discuss gender in the far right.
I suspect you'll have, now you have, you know, again, actual academic, not only academic training, but personal relationship with this kind of issue, and I'm wondering if, you know, so I'm not the douchebag wet guy in the room, if you could speak a little bit to that before I kind of lay out any kind of particular question or comment or whatever.
Yeah, which part of that?
I kind of just want you to go wherever you want to go.
I mean, in particular, your personal identification, I guess, would be a good place to start.
Yeah, okay.
So, yes, I do spend a good deal of time thinking about and writing about and theorizing about gender, both for my own personal necessity as a trans person, as a gender non-conforming person who, you know, attempting to articulate your own gender becomes difficult.
And so you sort of become fascinated with it, I think, everywhere else that it appears in the world.
And doing ethnographic research with the Proud Boys in particular, who, as I'm sure everyone is aware, prides themselves in the just prolific nature of what they would call trap posting or just posting about trans people and trans women generally, it definitely has led to some more than interesting occasions with them.
For a while, I got to don the moniker of the poll backslash hours hour or something backslash, I got to be backslash hour trap for a while which was horrifying and also personally very helpful to the progress of my research.
Did that make them trust you more?
What was that experience like?
Yeah, I think it was partly, it was both trust and also curiosity and also fetishization I would say definitely played in there strongly.
It also led to a rather horrifying moment of being at WestFest in a bar with a bunch of Proud Boys in Vegas and having one of their current elders literally just grope my junk.
So that was very unsettling, but you know, Unsettling, that's a word, yes.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, unsettling is definitely the kindest way that I could put it.
But yeah, you know, so definitely I would say that thinking about gender in the far right is both a personal necessity and also a bit of a hobby, I suppose.
Sure.
No, no, that makes perfect sense.
One of the things that I think, I don't know, like, I think people listening to this podcast will be at least vaguely aware of the fact that Something that I haven't really expressed in so many words is that this entire movement is completely fucking misogynist and completely trans-misogynist.
I talk a lot about the racial issues because I'm focusing mostly on the race-realist, overtly white-nationalist side of these guys, but it would be different if we I don't like Muslims because they behead women and they're like repressive towards, you know, the female genital mutilation arguments or whatever.
Like, at least that would be something you could sort of, like, find common ground on.
But it's like, no, we actually really like the Muslims because, like, ISIS is cool because they actually repress women and that's the way we should be and, you know, women should be basically these birthing pods essentially.
It's it's it's I don't want to say it's like shocking to me but it was certainly like the level is just the baseline standard for this entire you know field kind of struck me as interesting kind of from the beginning and I was what again just kind of I was wondering if you would like comment on that maybe and kind of like describe how you think that maybe these kind of right-wing ideologies depend on that kind of misogyny and that sort of
Even gender essentialism, which is not something I got into there, but again, take the word salad I just produced and make it.
That's what I'm asking you to do.
Or disagree with me if that's where you're going to go with that, because I would love for that to happen as well.
No, I mean, I think you're very largely correct about this.
You have a lot of black feminists and black queer feminists who come to mind who talk about how misogyny is such a pervasive thing throughout history, how it's something that set the stage for a lot of different kinds of degradation that, you know, kind of control over people's reproductive capacity, particularly people with uteruses, you know, founded
The Enlightenment, founded colonialism, a lot of these, you know, different exploitative ideologies and governments and practices come out of sort of that first central thing in a person's life where you sort of degrade your mother for, you know, the unconditionalness of her love.
That's kind of the way feminists will talk about it.
So essentially being that the idea that if you're a woman, right, what you do is love and nurture.
That is the core of your womanhood.
You have children, you mother them, you parent them, you know, whatever it is.
And that that love is unconditional and guaranteed by nature, which makes it not particularly valuable because it's just sort of guaranteed by nature that women are going to inevitably, if all is right in the world, otherwise, you know, you may have to control them and that is what it is.
But when the world is functioning correctly, women are doing these sort of nurturing things, not because it's labor, right?
God forbid we have to pay women for caring for children like we do when they care for other people's children.
You know, not as labor, but by their very natural essence.
And this is something that is foundational to our economic system, it's foundation to capitalism, the idea that the domestic labor that predominantly women do, and you know, I'm going to kind of essentialize things onto a binary a lot here, just because that is their ideology.
It's one that doesn't really recognize a lot of the diversity that I personally would like to see in a world.
But yeah, it's so deeply, capitalism is so deeply dependent on Women's unpaid labor in the house and in the domestic sphere generally that you know It becomes so quickly devalued and I do agree that that devaluing of labor that devaluing of life and agency is Among the foundational things to the far right I mean, there's a piece that's been going around recently where a – you've probably seen it.
I didn't pull it up because I wasn't thinking it would necessarily come up, but there's a piece that's been going on recently about like an interview with someone who is writing – who has written or is writing a book about the sort of Marxist social reproduction theory, the idea of treating all child labor, all child care as a surrogacy.
And it is kind of one of those things that I've kind of – I listened – again, I listened to these Just natter on about bullshit for hours and hours, and they read it but don't have any beginning of an understanding of it.
Even the more intellectual, I'm putting that in deep air quotes there, for those who don't see me on camera, even someone like Greg Johnson.
Um, who, you know, pretends to a certain degree of erudition, seems to just not even have ever Googled the concept of, like, toxic masculinity, for instance.
And, I mean, it's kind of astonishing to see, you know, like, this, you know, again, it would be like an attempt to sort of push back in any kind of reasonable way.
If it was, like, I sort of understand this concept and I disagree.
I mean, again, you debate these guys.
Sorry, I say guys, they're overwhelmingly guys, so I apologize for the gendering there, but I mean, you debate these guys, and when I listened to you debate Andy Warski and his buddies, who had clearly not done the slightest bit of research into the basic thing that they were going to be talking about.
And I think this comes back over and over again when they do talk about masculinity, just to use an example I hear a lot, where they don't understand an adjective and a noun.
The adjective modifies the noun.
You're not saying, oh masculinity is toxic, and it doesn't take long to learn that.
And there are resources that, I mean, you know, I was a shitty guy in my 20s, you know?
I mean, I understand the process.
But I don't know, I don't know.
What's it like for you to be hit with this kind of stuff over and over again?
Again, with your knowledge and your experience, like, how do you not pull your hair out trying to explain what you just will not ever understand?
It's hard.
I mean, it really is.
There are times when I'm very human and I get very frustrated and it is not the mood, right?
Like, in terms of the ideal praxis of that moment, the goal I'm trying to accomplish, there are moments where I do not do that effectively because I have too many feelings.
But, you know, Twitter, like the social media algorithms, you know, talk a lot now about how they tend to polarize people to the extremes and they tend to reward people sort of being very polemic or hyperbolic because it gets likes.
I also think it's kind of funny because that's one of those foundational things to toxic masculinity, which is that It is not rewarded.
There's no reward for masculinity that is humble, that is self-reflexive, that is wrong.
Right?
Like, you see how often right-wingers will infight among themselves and they'll just pick each other apart for any little thing that they do wrong.
And even when they're so obviously wrong, they'll keep trying to dunk on each other because there's no reward for saying, I hadn't thought about it like that because masculinity is so much about managing uncertainty and being in control of the situation.
You know, there's no sort of thing that makes you more of a man than having all your shit figured out.
And no one has all their shit figured out.
And so, so much of what we see on the right for men is just this constantly self-deprecating cycle where You know, knowledge and inquiry and like academic freedom sort of walking around your beliefs and finding all the things that lie outside of it and trying to square that with what you believe in.
It's not really a process that is harmonious with this idea that you need to have it all figured out, you need to be knowledgeable, you know, and you need to be on top of everything in your life.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And, you know, I find that, you know, so much of it is just this sort of, like, anxiety about this sort of, like, quote-unquote, the traditional family structure, which a nuclear family is not nearly as old as, you know, like, there is this, like, thing, like, the ancient Egyptians were, you know, they had, you know, a mother, father, and 2.3 children, which is, you know, certainly not, it's certainly not a universal history, even throughout European history.
Sorry, go ahead.
And they don't, you know, and they don't even want monogamy, right?
Like, for all of the jokes they make about harems and, you know, rooms of women with baby machines, they either are uninterested in monogamy because they loathe women and don't actually want to spend any time around them, or they hate monogamy because they don't actually want to just be with one woman, you know?
And it's, I think, so much, and this is, again, what capitalism does is Marriage expanded in the West originally as a way for, you know, it was something only royalty did to consolidate property or, you know, territories or to, you know, create material commitments to one another across nations.
And so when marriage expanded into common folk, it was very much the same thing.
You know, you weren't living in a feudal era now.
Now people could have private property and so you needed a way for when multiple people are living on a piece of property in a reproductive arrangement for being able to protect that.
And that's where the legal institution of marriage comes from.
And so I think the part of the anxiety they feel is that we have created a system where being married to someone is a very serious material thing.
You know, it gives you certain rights, which is why gay marriage was something that people fought for.
Not because It's a good idea to have your health care be predicated on whether or not you are married, which is, you know, awful.
But the reality is that marriage entitles you to things like health care, and it doesn't otherwise.
And so I think we've, you know, we've created this system in which there is one kind of quote-unquote traditional family, where traditional, as it turns out, just means the thing that I was raised with, and that's what I feel is traditional.
You know, that it's something that is so Our imagination to live outside of monogamy is so limited and the anxiety comes from what becomes of me if I don't have a nuclear family?
How do I have the life I'm supposed to have?
How do I pass things down to my children?
Who am I without the material security of the marriage structure?
What does that make me?
Just a single person out there in the world alone and by myself?
We're not supposed to do that!
Right, and so much of the rhetoric comes down to feeling like we're atomized consumers, for instance.
I definitely don't want to lean into giving Angela Nagle any credit at all.
I used to get into a lot of trouble when I criticized Angela Nagle, and then everybody else realized what a lot of us have been saying for a couple of years, that it was a really shitty book.
But one of her theses is that, theses, I put it again in quotes because it's, I think she basically browsed 4chan for two months and wrote a dissertation on it.
I am being snarky.
Wait for the emails now.
I mean, it's true though.
No, I feel like one of the things that that book, Kill on Armies, kind of one of the central theses is that, Basically, the alt-right was born by a bunch of, like, kids on 4chan making fun of Tumblr and kind of, like, responding to the, kind of, the other-ken, the kind of, you know, the acceptance of trans issues, the acceptance of feminism, and that kind of aggressive, like, SJWism.
And, you know, some of the figures really do seem to kind of, like, it's not wrong It's just woefully incomplete, and then of course Nagel tends to sort of agree with them, that like, the crazy kids on Tumblr are just stupid for caring about gender issues.
That's kind of part of the toxicity there, but...
You know, someone like Chris Cantwell, for instance.
I mean, he's thoroughly anti-trans.
Like, in a way that is... I mean, you know, again, I don't... You know, you absorbed this material as well, so I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
I mean, he literally encourages trans people to just shoot themselves.
I mean, he... I think even his fans got sick of the degree to which he was yelling about trans people on his show for a while.
You know, The Daily Show recently did an entire episode where they went through horror stories of transition stories.
They found some article or some reddit post or whatever where people were sharing bad transition stories and where they found the wrong doctor.
And that becomes the type specimen for, you know, this is why trans people are disgusting, evil, horrible people who shouldn't exist or they're mentally ill and all that sort of thing.
I mean, I do feel like there is this sort of You know, trans people sort of make cis people question, you know, something that's seen in there, in this hellscape we live in, and the gender binary is so obvious to people.
People find it so icky that it's like an easy in for these guys to just sort of like turn that up to 11 and turn it into something that you can build a political ideology on.
And again, I'm sort of filibuster here.
I'm just wondering, you know, I was kind of expressing it to you.
What kind of thoughts would you have on that?
Well, the theorists I respect less, and this isn't going to get me a lot of love, but like Adorno or other people who make the argument of, you know, they're secretly homosexual, you know, I think that's the worst possible way to say it.
I think what we know from the Kinsey Report is that most people are not straight, that straightness is not particularly normal.
Sex is something that feels good and it's not, there's nothing natural about stopping yourself from seeking that in some instances where you are Interesting.
You know what I mean?
Like, the very concept of heterosexuality is something that is not really native to any animal.
No animal really restricts their pleasure based on the, like, arbitrary idea of, is it reproductive?
Because reproduction is not always the goal of sex.
And so I think, you know, what I do think is true is that most people, and the alt-right are included in most people, you know, have some sort of same-sex attraction or gender fluidity or whatever, because the constructs themselves are very repressive.
You know, I definitely know this, I think, better than perhaps some people.
But, you know, they are.
The idea of gender is very repressive.
Normative gender and sexuality are very repressive.
And so, of course, people find ways to work around that in whatever cognitive way they need to.
It's oftentimes saying constantly terrible things about trans people, but then your Discord channel or your chat server is somehow inundated constantly with trans porn, you know what I mean, or gay porn, because, you know, you don't want to say you're enjoying it, but you still can get some enjoyment over the process you don't want to say you're enjoying it, but you still can get some enjoyment over the process of consuming the sexual information, It's like you still get this idea of, like, I feel good about things.
I feel superior to this person.
And a lot of sex, you know, I mean, people say it so much it's trivial, right?
The idea that rape isn't about sex, it's about power.
But I think broadly for a lot of men, sex is about power in the sense that the feeling of power builds their self-worth over sex.
That's something we see a lot in porn.
Weirdly enough, not why the alt-right, I guess, calls porn degeneracy, but perhaps one of the better arguments if they wanted to go down that road would be how awfully exploitative it is towards women's sexual needs in ways that By the way, they then get very angry about that, you know?
That's not the stuff they care about.
They care about, and I heard this from Chris Cantwell, so it's clearly valid, you know, is that most of the cocks are circumcised, and therefore my cock is circumcised because the Jews did this to me, and therefore porn is pushing an unrealistic body size about my dick because all those dicks are bigger than mine.
And so the Jews are making me feel bad about my dick through porn.
Good lord.
You know, the better criticism would be... I mean, there are so many better criticisms.
I know way too much about Christopher Cantwell's dick, by the way.
I am well aware of too many things about Christopher Cantwell's dick.
I apologize for sharing it with the world.
I mean, I feel you, though.
I mean, the number of images I've consumed that have to do with Chris Cantwell and dicks in one capacity or another is so overwhelmingly high.
And you know, that is sort of the thing about it, is like, you know, things like... Alright, can I be very vulgar on this?
I mean, I feel like we're way past that point.
Oh, yeah, no.
Okay, good.
But, you know... Look, hey, hey, this is a podcast about, like, Nazi shit.
Please feel free.
I think this is an adult audience, you know?
Content warnings abound, regardless.
It's fine.
We try not to use the like like overt ethnic slurs and less without like saying warning beforehand.
But other than that, you know, go to us.
But, you know, you look at something something like gangbanging.
Gangbanging is somehow imagined as the height of heterosexuality that you and a bunch of dudes, you know, are going to all have.
Right.
Like this is peak heterosexual.
And so it's like you're trying to process how is that true?
Because to me, that seems very silly.
If you want to be intimate with other men, you know, be intimate with other men and you don't have to pretend as though it's heterosexual.
It can just be a thing you enjoy.
But the way that, you know, it gets processed that way is the same way that they understand sharing all of this porn to be a heterosexual experience with each other and not tied up in a sense of self-worth that comes from sharing it with each other, which sounds much less heterosexual when you put it that way.
But you know, it's because we're all getting together and we're all enacting power on this weaker feminine body.
We are all participating in this conquest together, and there is nothing more heterosexual than a bunch of dudes, you know, going and conquering something.
And so, you know, it's just... It's the warrior gene.
That's definitely a white thing, obviously.
And yet, in the, you know, like, over-sexualized African bodies and that sort of thing, you know, it is kind of perceived as like, you're supposed to have these desires ...is to make white babies, as opposed to what all those stupid n-words do, which is just go out and spread their seed around and then all their women have abortions, etc, etc.
So there's both this kind of sense of you have to be overtly masculine, but you also have to put that into specific slots, if you were, if you won't mind the terrible pun on that.
No, I mean, it's very much true and exactly how it is.
And you know, so much of their loathing about women, you know, they want sex, but they don't want the companionship of women.
And so much of that comes back to that warrior ethos or seeing themselves as warriors.
There's a book Male fantasies that is about war and about masculinity.
And one of the things that, you know, men come home from war basically feeling like women could never understand.
And there is a lot of very, that's valid, that's legitimate, right?
Men got drafted in World War I, right?
Went to Vietnam.
It was overwhelmingly men who were asked to make these sacrifices on behalf of material, you know, on behalf of capitalism, on behalf of imperialism.
And that when they came back, it was an experience that they only could share with each other.
And healing from what had happened, healing from that trauma, they saw it as something that they could only share with each other.
And so, so much intimacy during war is built around this idea that men are the ones, in their mind, who have to struggle, who have to fight, who have to do What has to be done to protect women and women really get off the hook easy because women don't have to do this.
This is men's responsibility.
And so, you know, rather than allowing that to be a thing, a point of intimacy between men, it becomes something that they hate about themselves and the way that they rationalize it is by saying, We get into these circumstances where we have to come together like this for the survival of our race or for the survival of our people.
You know, it very much is rationalized as just the most critical exigency as a real situation where, you know, it's an existential question.
It's a survival of our people question.
Right, and I mean that goes straight to the Great Replacement and white genocide and all that kind of stuff, that there's some outside force that's preventing the propagation of the race, and that that outside force is exactly – and that you have to subvert that force or remove that force, physical removal.
We're talking about... They joke about being cucks in gas chambers in the same breath.
I mean, it's not hard to draw these connections, right?
I found... I mean, not to get back to, like, dirty pictures and stuff, but I did find our little chat about...
I mean, a lot of the early TRS memes, I don't know how much of that material you've consumed, but I've listened to basically every episode of The Daily Show, and no one should have to do that, honestly.
But a lot of the early stuff, they rely around a... one of the early jokes is the standard fuck party, and so there's this...
It's an old movie from the 80s which is about bug chasers.
It's about gay men with AIDS who are looking to, basically in some nihilistic way, give it to other men as a way of bonding.
And the film kind of goes and it's like, well this is where the orgy is going to happen and we've got mops.
I would actually be interested to see the documentary.
I don't know the provenance of it.
They use it as, you know, a way of like, well, all gay men are like this and all, you know, and there is this kind of obsession with sort of the details of like, quote unquote, degenerate sex, particularly gay sex.
And again, kind of getting back to like the transition surgeries, there's this focus on how like icky those surgeries are and how the details of the anatomy just seems to be this like kind of visceral response.
There's kind of a thing of like it can't just be like you're allowed to find it icky and then like also say you know what but it's not for me but it's okay you know I don't but you know I don't build my political ideology around like not liking certain textured foods but apparently you know like hey butt sex that's that's just too far for these guys.
It's the kind of combination of the fascination with the imagery and kind of keep going back to it as a joke quote-unquote.
And yet, they're repulsed by it.
And it's, I don't know, that dichotomy seems really kind of interesting to me.
Kind of referring back again to that conversation we were having earlier about that topic.
I'm wondering if you would expand on that a little bit or if you had any comment on it.
Yeah, which, sorry, that was a lot, which part?
Yeah, no, that was a lot.
Well, I mean, just in terms of like, for instance, on AIDS, for instance, that, you know, AIDS is like this, you know, some of them will actually just call it GRIDS, the Gay-Related Immunodeficiency Syndrome, the original name for AIDS for anyone who isn't.
aware of it will kind of refer to it as like, well, you know, it's all those, you know, the other F-words, all those, you know, it's a disease that doesn't affect straight people.
It doesn't affect white people who do things properly.
And so therefore it should just be, we shouldn't be putting all this money into it, for instance.
And the fact that we do is just a, and that kind of connection, yeah, but I don't know, I guess I'm kind of generally trying to get an idea of like the, this kind of like obsession with these kind of like quote unquote disgusting details and this kind of like path of pathologizing these kinds of things alongside a not not with a desire to help with a desire to eliminate, I guess.
I mean, part of it is, you know, one upsmanship is part of the subculture.
And so the more disturbing of a thing you can find, the better you are, you know, and that there's just sort of social credibility that comes from being particularly revolting or providing something that's extremely disgusting.
So, you know, part of it's just sort of the social norms of The right.
You know, the other part of it, too, is they work so hard to suppress what I think they know is a part of themselves.
You can't hate everyone in the world and not kill a part of yourself, right?
Like, and I have seen them do this to themselves so many times, and I really don't know why I persist in feeling sympathy for them, because it's fairly personally offensive, you know, but one of them will Say that they started talking to this girl if this girl's interested in them, but she's not white and so what should they do?
And you know everyone will be like absolutely not the fuck is wrong with you, and then they'll be like well You know I don't even like her.
Well.
She's actually pretty ugly.
Well.
She's actually a bitch Well, maybe I'll fuck her just to do it, right?
Maybe I'll... And then it's like, you know, then it develops into a rape fantasy, right?
Like, all very quickly.
And it's sort of just devastating to see how their drive for purity will lead them to deny themselves things that would truly make them happy, because...
Then it would undermine so much of how they get their own sense of self now.
You know, the idea of having to do the work to become a whole human who is capable of existing around difference, who's capable of dealing with the uncertainty of life.
Who can be okay with the fact that your future is not assured and that there are ways you can work towards that which do not involve lashing out in masculine violence.
You know, that there's something really nice about the idea that maybe something will come along and kill all the bad people instead, you know, and you can just fantasize about how when the time comes when the people who I think there's just a great deal of comfort in the idea that it's for something, you know?
That they will get something out of it.
difficult that the course that masculine men had to hold when the going was rough, you know, that they sacrificed themselves.
They did all these things.
I think there's just a great deal of comfort in the idea that it's for something, you know, that they will get something out of it.
And who else when you are that low on your luck, when all you have left is a sense of white superiority, you know, Like, imagine how little you must have in your life that your identity is primarily based on the idea that maybe white people are the best people.
Like, you know, who else are you going to shit on to make yourself feel good if not black people and Muslims and people who are down worse on their luck than you, you know?
Like, where else are you gonna go?
And gay people with AIDS, right?
Like, it all, I think, lends pretty naturally into something that can numb the pain of their own existence.
Well, if you believe in this, like, natural law concept, which, you know, kind of comes, I mean, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the overt National Socialists would kind of, like, say, you know, National Socialism is just the, you know, kind of politicization of, of the natural order of things or the natural law.
I mean, it's a kind of standard talking point.
You know, and when you see, oh, well, you know, AIDS is something that, you know, only It isn't true, but you know, like, that's kind of their line on it.
It's vast majority effects.
Just gay people.
And that's just a sign from, some of them will say God, or you know, the non-religious types will say nature or whatever.
That's just a sign from the universe, from the natural world, that this isn't healthy and that by keeping people alive who would otherwise, who the world is just telling us should be dead, but those are not reproducing in there, etc, etc.
You know, there is that kind of, you know, like this sort of They essentialize their biology and the politics are derived directly from the biology and from sort of the basic facts of existence.
And yet, in order to kind of draw those conclusions, they're ultimately having to take this type specimen, this type sample that is the, you know, kind of traditional nuclear family or whatever, and then like expand that out into this both backwards and forwards in time, which I think is so
Clearly the sort of the central fantasy of so many of these guys and kind of, you know, I mean, if you're a young guy and you're, you know, jerking off into Kleenex and, you know, you're fantasizing across the hall and you're like, man, what if there was a social structure that could just make her fuck me?
And I mean, I hate to oversimplify, but there really is a sense in which a lot of guys seem to get into this through not much more than that.
I don't know.
Like, what do you think about the sort of, you know, the, Yeah, I mean, I think that there's two things.
are largely or at least partly built on this sort of psychological construct of treating the type specimen as the only one that should be here.
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's two things.
One is that, you know, you look at, imagine being so angry about the way that things are and the way that your life has turned out and your own personal sense of failure or fear and anxiety that you won't become anything.
I mean, it wasn't that long ago that I was, you know, in the target demographic of young alt-right people who may turn out to be violent.
You know, and that's one of the most hated demographics in the country, right?
Like teenagers, for all of the shit we talk on them and all of the ways that we disregard their emotions and their autonomy and their sense of self, teenagers are the most hated people in the world, perhaps.
And so, you know, whatever, imagine being so angry about the state of things and experiencing so much fear about, will I get a good job?
You know, I do think that economic anxiety is not something that is not true.
I always think it's a meme and then someone in one of these channels will be talking about their day in a way that conveys the obvious precarious financial situation that they live in and it's like, Right, that is a real thing that impacts a lot of these people.
And so, you know, if you imagine feeling all of that and feeling as though and being told, you know, going to try to figure out what is wrong, why is society not functioning quickly?
I think the American education system does a pretty decent job at destabilizing people's understanding of the world, you know, by showing them that everything is indeed quite fucked.
But we do a pretty bad job at giving people an alternative framework to understand reality through, which is why, you know, it can be so jarring.
I think because people are afraid to be called political or be called, you know, Marxist indoctrinators or whatever, but for whatever reason we tend to be very apolitical and that can leave our students feeling very destabilized.
So, they go looking for ideologies and they find this idea that it's those people who aren't living right, those people who refuse to be good, Either American citizens or white citizens depending on who we're talking about here.
If it's someone like the Proud Boys or if it's Identity Europa, which I don't know, who knows what they're doing these days.
Patrick Casey claims that both Identity Europa and the AIM still exist, or maybe it was Invictus, I can't remember, but it's like, no, it is just a rebrand.
They're two different organizations with different names.
Yeah, okay, whatever, guys.
I'm sure IE still exists to the degree that it is still being sued.
In my opinion, anyway.
Too real.
You know, but they find these ideologies that says everyone else is ruining everything, right?
The gays are ruining everything, and so you need to be your best heterosexual person, the brown people are ruining everything, the black people are definitely ruining everything, the trans people are absolutely ruining everything, and they're ruining everything for future generations too, right?
But there's this idea, they always go to like the children, right?
Like the idea that trans people are like secret child predators because that implicates the future, that the future white people are also being fucked up.
And so, Well, gay people breed, right?
Because they have to make new gay people through pedophilia, and I wouldn't even bring it up except, like, James also put out a video saying that, like, yesterday, and I, it's just, it's vile and disgusting, but it's very much like, he has 450,000 YouTube subscribers, you know, we can't ignore that they're literally trying to connect these things.
Sorry, please continue.
Which is such a wild thing to think that because when you really mess up someone's sense of social norms around sexuality, the fact that it expresses itself differently, and to think that that says more about gay people than it does about the deep repression about their own homosexual feelings that the vast majority of people have is just kind of wild to me.
But if you think that all of us are the ones ruining everything for you, Then, of course, you look at us as something that you just, like, want to see dead, right?
Like, something that is so... Something like pride, right?
They're so mad right now.
They're so mad because there are all these people who are expressing their freedom and who are happy.
And they're happy despite the fact that they're ruining everyone else's happiness, right?
They sit in their room and it's like, I'm not happy.
And you're the reason I'm not happy, and look at how happy you get to be.
You fucking degenerate, right?
Like, you get to go out and express pride in who you are, and I never get to express pride in who I am, or I'm told that I'm a Nazi, and, you know, I have no joy in my life and no future and no prospects, and you're probably just going to live in your own filth and be perfectly happy, right?
The idea of other people's happiness, especially the people who they think are ruining their own, is just so infuriating to them.
And I think the other side of it, too, is just the sense of certainty.
Imagine how liberating it must feel for people who are very unsure about the world and the future.
You hear them over and over talk about how we just don't know what white people's future looks like.
We don't think white people have a future.
Their sense of uncertainty about their future can be settled by just saying, it's objective.
It's truth.
There's men and women.
Biology works this way.
Your people are easily genetically defined.
I mean, imagine what a relief it must be to feel a deep sense of uncertainty and be told, no, there is a genetic pre-programmed answer to all of this and all you have to do is believe in it.
I mean, it, I imagine, feels very nice.
There's also, just building on what you were saying, you know, there's also the sense of, like, so many of these guys have children, and, you know, I'm particularly thinking of Jesse Dunstan, who's Stan from The Daily Show, who, he has a couple of children, and he'll talk about, like, his son picked up a doll, and I said, no, that's bad, and we'll, you know, and there's this concept called bully-citing, which I don't know if you've kind of heard that term, I'm sure you've heard it, but
Just for the audience, the idea of, like, you're bullying somebody into submission, into kind of obeying these, you know, kind of narrowly defined social norms.
And so, it's like, well, you know, if my son starts acting like a, again, the F-slur, you know, if my son starts acting gay, I'm just going to make him not be gay.
And, I mean, it's just like that kind of casual brutality.
I mean, look, I grew up in the Americans.
Believe me, I'm familiar with this concept.
It's one of the most horrifying things to me is, you know, like children being abused by their parents.
Out over something that they are.
I mean, it's one of my personal, like, clear motivating things.
I get really angry about this topic.
And so when I hear fathers say, I mean, just bragging about, like, essentially, you know, abusing their children in this way, and yet, like, there is this sense in which, like, both this thing is so natural that we should all just be it, but also, like, we have to bully each other into being it, you know, with, if necessary.
Yeah, and you get a sense that it's a rite of passage.
And this goes back to the idea that women can never understand what it is that men must endure, not by choice, right?
We don't have a choice about bullying our children into being or our sons into being men, because this is what you have to do to be a man.
And you're right.
Nobody ever asked the question of if it's what you have to do, why is it so unpleasant to be indoctrinated into doing it?
Why do you have to be indoctrinated or beat or, you know, bully sided into doing it?
You know, that's not an important question.
It's just it is what it That that is the only possible path forward.
Right.
You know, because like we have to propagate the race we have.
I mean, I'm kind of thinking in terms of what nationalists, because that's the groups that I follow, but you're a little bit broader in terms of view.
I mean, I know you've like debated like three percenters and you've kind of, so, so, you know, what, what would you say, how does this kind of manifest if there is a kind of, if there are differences between these kind of different segments of this, of this kind of right wing movement and popular, you know, even, you know, kind of liberal, You know, I'm wondering if you could maybe speak a little bit to the differences that you see in some of the various movements and how they talk about these kinds of gender issues.
Yeah, for some it is more.
Sorry, I know that's like a 30-second answer.
I mean, you know, it definitely varies across the movements in some ways, but I think the Proud Boys are probably the exemplars of most of the right in this way, just because so much of the Proud Boys is just a very deeply distilled masculine politic.
And, you know, Gavin McInnes says that there are four things it takes to be a man.
You have to break your heart, you have to, no, you have to break someone's heart, get your heart broken, get your ass kicked, and kick someone's ass.
Are you sure he's not a Klingon?
of what it takes to be a man to Gavin McGinnis has to do with pain.
It has to do with pain and violence.
You have to have your heart broken.
You have to destroy someone emotionally and physically and that's what it is to be a man.
It is to have the capacity to destroy and it is to have endured a great deal of pain in your own right.
And that's devastating.
Are you sure he's not a Klingon?
Because that's what that kind of sounds like to me.
It really does.
It's like one of the the burning nipple ritual from the next generation.
That's kind of what I'm imagining right now.
Yeah, I mean, very much, pretty much what it is, you know, and I think that it's no coincidence that this is, you know, the Proud Boys didn't invent that conception of masculinity.
The Proud Boys are distilling something that's very fundamental to, you know, to American culture in particular, but Western culture and imperialist culture broadly, which is that, you know, we have a major war every two generations, give or take.
You know, yeah, every two generations and you'll have World War I and then horrifying fallout of that in terms of communities and people being affected by most of the fathers of a generation or a large percentage of the fathers of a generation having been traumatized by war.
And then you get something, you know, where people are rebelling against that.
So like something like Vietnam is a very good example of one of the first times where men were like, fuck this.
We are not going overseas to fight and die for some shit that we don't even care about right like that is not the core of what it means to be a man But we're very much attacked for their femininity, you know for refusing to fight as though that made them cowardly and not In some, you know, very obvious way morally righteous to refuse to go kill civilians in a foreign nation for you know money It made them it made them sissies ultimately.
I mean I mean, it made them pansies.
Again, I'm trying to avoid the overt slurs, but I mean, they're in, you know, oh, you're not going to go, like, as if there is no courage in standing up to the military machine and being willing to be jailed or, you know, flee your home or whatever.
Yeah, you know, and when there are so of course there's this cycle of social reproduction with masculinity where it's like men go and get broken either in the workplace or in war or in a fight of some kind or in jail, especially if they are black or Latino, you know, and so you've all these different ways in which different men become broken and highly racialized but and classed ways and then We did not like that one.
Sorry, my dog really barked.
It was funny.
Sorry, go ahead.
of mine is gonna be a faggot, right?
Like no boy of mine is gonna dress like a girl or whatever else. - I really did not like that word.
Sorry, my dog, Lily, marched.
It was funny.
Sorry, go ahead, please. - No, I mean, it really is.
And so, when you learn that the whole idea of masculinity is your capacity to enact righteous violence, of course you get something like the Prep Boys.
I mean, what other emotion are boys allowed to express?
Because it's not just dressing a particular way, but it's also being too caring, or taking up too little space, or deferring to other people.
God forbid you defer to a woman in a social situation.
There are very few ways that men are allowed to be in touch with their whole humanity, except for the righteousness of war.
And so, of course, we don't ask questions when we're not even willing to ask questions of the nation we live in about why it is all of our problems must be solved through war.
Why it is that none of our problems appear to be solvable through diplomacy, but they're only solved by pouring billions and billions and billions of dollars into the military-industrial complex.
You know, if we're not willing to ask that as a nation, of course we're not willing to ask that in our own homes and in our own communities.
What would ever give the Proud Boys the idea that they could solve a political problem with anything short of violence?
You know, like, we don't teach men that.
Where would men possibly get that idea from?
No, absolutely.
I am a cis white man.
I was born and raised in the American South.
I was definitely brought up this way.
I am a cis white man.
I read.
I was born and raised in the American South.
I was definitely kind of brought up this way.
And, you know, I only have, you know, I was, I read, you know, I had influences aside from the kind of toxic culture in which I grew up.
But, you know, certainly there are, you know, Mike Enoch has said of me, he thinks I'm a trans furry.
Now, I don't think he actually thinks I'm a trans furry.
I think he just thinks that's a way of making fun of me.
And yes, that was on a paywall show.
I'm behind your paywall now, dickheads.
That's amazing.
But I mean, you know, it's like, it's like, I don't think there's any, obviously I don't think there's anything wrong with being trans or being a furry.
I mean, I know people who are both and either and etc, you know, but you know, the idea that...
You know, that automatically makes my opinions and my feelings and anything that I have to say wrong.
I mean, they'll even use the sort of, again, this kind of biological essentialism that, you know, men with the soy face idea and the soy boy kind of concept that soy is estrogenizing men, which is kind of bullshit pseudoscience, whatever, anyway.
You could speak to that more so than I could.
I didn't ask you for references on that, but, you know, it's complete pseudoscientific horseshit as far as I'm concerned, as far as I've read.
But the idea that men in this culture are being essentially feminized, both culturally by the advent of feminism and by cat ladies and women in our lives who are not allowing us to exert the natural male urges of dominance and fighting, etc., but also chemically.
And so there's this thing, physiogamy, I can never pronounce it.
I think you know the word I'm looking for, where you can look at somebody.
It's literally like this kind of rebirth of phrenology that you can look at the facial features and that you've got a rounder face and therefore clearly you're not truly masculine and therefore your opinions don't matter.
And I mean, I find it fascinating because it's literally making the ad hominem attack is valid in this ideology because you can literally look at someone and know whether their opinions are valid because you can get some read on their genetic heritage and the amount of testosterone in their system.
And like more testosterone is right, which is why so many of the guys who do get like super jacked, like guys like, I want to say Ethan Nordean and like the golden one who are just like the stronger you are.
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, I was just going to say Ethan Nordean did coke off of my dresser at West Fest.
So yeah, I'm familiar.
Nice.
Well, that's a story that maybe we should tell off the mic.
But, you know.
Um, but yeah, no, I mean, you know, and then, I mean, he, he was someone who was, I mean, just, uh, you know, these guys almost literally whipped their dicks out and, and grabbed the Jurgens to, uh, I mean, he, he essentially knocked out an anti-the, uh, medical, uh, but, but it looked like a severe brain injury.
And, I mean, they're literally, like, chortling over it.
They would play the video over and over again on their shows.
I mean, Gavin did this.
Again, the Showboys did this.
I think Catwell probably did it.
I can't, you know, remember if he, Got too deep.
He might have been in jail at that point, so he probably didn't kind of get into it that deeply, but I mean, I listened to them and watched them kind of talk about this and just in this, like, rapturous terms.
This guy is, like, saying to this person, to this leftist, to this, like, fucking soy boy, no, you're not, and he's not in, like, that, that, this is such a, a powerful thing.
It's them saying, no, you're not gonna take this from me, but, and of course, really, like, Norgaine is the dickhead of the situation because he's a fucking fascist, but, I don't know.
Sorry, I'm filibustering again.
Your thoughts?
You're good.
Nordean and him and Kyle Chapman, or Bay Stickman, both of them are similar in that they're mythologized figures.
You know, you have Ethan Nordean's image of the punch going viral, but then you also have these artistic recreations where it's him.
And now he has like, you know, the glowing eyes coming out of his sunglasses and he is punching this anti-fascist who resembles a human, but is very clearly no longer human.
You know, it has blue skin and, you know, his facial features are a bit distorted and the blood spatter, there's blood spatter shooting out of the back of his head, which I guess is physics now.
And that blood splatter is black and red, you know, very symbolic of and his Ethan Nordean's fist is, you know, covered in fire.
It's like a literal fireball.
I mean, the imagery and the iconography becomes so grand, and it is so much because, you know, the Proud Boys made a designation for getting into fights, as you know, right, a fourth degree, that you were elevated to this higher hierarchy, Higher hierarchical status by committing violence.
And it is because, you know, you are doing what needs to be done.
You have achieved the glory of becoming a warrior.
And no matter what you've done wrong, if you, you know, didn't pay your alimony or your child support or you're a fuck-up, you didn't, you know, you never got a degree, your job sucks, you're impoverished, none of that matters anymore because you can become redeemed as a man.
You can become someone that women want because you are someone who can protect them.
You know, because you are someone who is showing that you are a qualified male to reproduce with.
And so this glorification of the warrior as the ideal, you know, economically ideal and politically ideal and, you know, socially ideal is something that I think, you know, it very much shows us how they imagine violence to function socially, right?
They imagine violence to function socially by giving them esteem among their peers, which is what they want.
And Kyle Chapman the same way, you know, you had, you know, the picture of him with the stick hitting someone at the quote-unquote Battle of Berkeley, and then you have memes being made out of it, and then you have painted versions, and then you have like that literal comic book, you know?
That Michael Barron, I don't know if that ever happens, right, or if that's just a meme, right, but you see the story become narrativized in all of these deeper and deeper ways that you can live on beyond what you've actually accomplished by, you know, valorizing your, you know, by becoming valorized because of your willingness to commit violence.
So of course it's something that spurs a lot of violence because that's your pathway to redemption as a person.
Right.
No, absolutely.
I'm wondering if we could shift gears slightly and talk about women in the far right.
And again, not to embrace the gender binary, but we are talking about far right shitheads here.
Largely that's, you know, 99.99% we're talking about men and women here.
One of the things, and again, I'd love to get kind of correction on this or addition, is that you kind of have two paths to being a woman in this movement.
It's either to be, or at least sort of as a kind of a public figure.
You can either be in a support role, kind of the trad wife, you know, raising children, you know, kind of doing the homemaker stuff.
Or you have to be even edgier than the boys.
And I mean, I think our two, kind of, type specimens here are, you know, like, Isla Stewart, who's a wife with a purpose, who's very much that, kind of, like, I think she's, like, trad-Catholic, or maybe she's more, I forget which denomination or which religion, but very traditional, very, like, you know, Earthy, talking about, you know, like the Wheatfield Girls kind of concept.
And then Emily Ucas on the other side, who literally embraced the, like, White Sharia Rape Gang meme.
I'm wondering if you have kind of thoughts on that phenomenon.
Yeah, I interact a lot less with women on the alt-right, both because sheer numbers and also because most of the spaces I'm in are pretty, like, they either explicitly forbid women or a parent, you know, or sort of by the nature of the space itself, women don't want to be around.
I spent a lot less time interacting with women, but yeah, I would I would agree with those two things basically being it I think there is also the role of the Risk respected semi equal partner.
So if you like, you know, there are definitely women who are partners of someone important and are very similar to them that, you know, not perhaps not all right for sure.
But Count Dankula and Sue Hulk are the two that come to mind where she is kind of like edgy and calm.
You know, she's very much like him.
And she is esteemed because there is this person who they all have a relationship with, this public figure that they respect.
And and they like seeing someone make him happy.
And so they respect her because she makes him happy.
She said, you know what I mean?
And so there's definitely the support role that's not necessarily I because I think someone like Trad Wife is like, I am leading the women.
You know, there are women leaders who lead the women in their own women-y movements, you know, the gas-flopping type deal.
Gosh, I hadn't heard that one.
Oh, God.
Oh, yeah.
I love it.
I don't love it.
It's disgusting, but obviously, you know, you take your pleasure when you can in this stuff.
Seriously, it's absolutely true.
Yeah, so you know, you have the trad wife type, but then you have also the supporting and wholesome sort of like caricature of what the girl next door might be like.
It's almost like the Playboy centerfold who likes Hitler.
There's the kind of classic, traditional, hefter girl.
And again, it's that kind of idealized, suburban household.
You know, the girl-next-door figure who also, you know, wants to bash the fags, basically.
You know, that's essentially, you know, and, you know, bear my white children.
And, I mean, you know, there is a...
Again, I hate to bring up Cantwell, but he's just such the type specimen for being the...
Like, just off...
Chris Cantwell used to write for a voice for men.
And so whenever you start talking, he's just...
Even more than the libertarian to alt-right pipeline, he's the misogyny to alt-right pipeline for me.
And so, you know, it's just such a such thing.
But like he he would literally I mean, he he he kind of sort of encouraged wife beating on a recent episode, you know, and.
And he's been so... And when I say kinda sorta, he basically did, but he didn't say it in so many words, if we can, you know, like, put it that way.
I don't wanna get sued.
Actually, if Chris Campbell sued me, I'm sure he would, like, get crushed, so it's fine.
But, you know... I've got the audio to prove it, it's fine.
No, but, you know, you find someone like... Sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought there.
He's someone who has been really kind of actively, he's terrified that Robert Bowers is going to go and pull a Robert Bowers essentially.
So he's been deeply kind of counter signaling that thing lately.
For the last several months at least for me since the beginning of the year basically and I think that there is a You know, he will literally sort of like say, you know, wouldn't you rather?
settle down, get a good job, and put a bunch of white babies and a nice white girl rather than spend the rest of your life in a prison cell.
And so there is that kind of sense of live for the movement, don't die.
But again, this kind of fantasy of the woman is sort of like the trophy and the reward, but also the supporter.
And it's just kind of, it comes, it's like the starter set.
It's like the pack that you get when you join the movement.
Like, oh, you're going to get a white girl, and she's going to do what you say, and it's just going to be fine.
And she won't have opinions of her own.
And if she does, it's because, also again, just talking about Cantwell, his thing is like, if she's got the wrong political opinions, you just make her come really hard, and she'll just start agreeing with you.
If heterosexual men have to convince white women to agree with them by making them orgasm, they are fucked.
I'm just like, wow, they're sotas.
If that was how it works, there would be a lot more lesbians in the world.
We'll just leave it at that.
You're a lot more leftist, to be honest.
Well, it's true, yeah.
Sorry, I'm being a... No, no, you're fine.
Yeah, no, I mean sorry again, just just just kind of you know, um, Emily Ucas actually went on Cantwell's point I just hate that I'm talking about Cantwell this much but Emily Ucas went on his show and Like was talking about how she she was I think 25 at this point and she kind of she hadn't left the movement but she wasn't being so much a public figure because she didn't like people looking at her looks and thinking they like following her because she was attractive and she felt like she was like broken at 25 and
Because she's been able to like have children and she hadn't been mothered up and been wifed up and born children by then.
And she felt like, oh, she's over the hill, she's broken, etc.
And again, it does feel like sort of the flip side of that kind of like what we ask out of men, that kind of those kind of masculine structures is that that more feminine structure, that more, you know, you have to have this certain kind of lifestyle or else you've kind of failed.
And that's not something I can speak to directly.
But I mean, I felt really sad for her.
I mean, she's a terrible, terrible human being.
But like to think you're broken at 25 because of that.
I mean, I don't know.
It just it struck me as kind of an interesting moment.
Yeah, I mean, I think seeing patriarchy as evidence as a power structure that impacts people and leads them to misery is always really tragic.
You know, you see often a couple different ways I think this happens to women on the alt-right, and women generally, is that one is They are.
I'm not surprised that one would think of themselves as broken at that age because, you know, youth is so highly praised and the natural process of aging for women is so severely stigmatized that it definitely does encourage people to think of themselves as only having their own, you know, as their self-worth being so tied up in male approval.
And when male approval is almost exclusively sexual and reproductive, then, you know, it's hard to build a self-worth outside of that.
I think it also manifests in women who sometimes play stupid or helpless who are not, which, you know, seems kind of painful to to watch, you know, women who will act like, oh, I haven't read Siege.
Please tell me what it says, just like as a way to garner male attention, you know, to ask questions.
Women do this all the time.
They ask men questions they already know the answer to because there are not many acceptable ways to seek, what's the word I'm looking for, to seek attention as a woman and for it to be okay.
You're not allowed to just say like, I miss you and I like you a lot and I would like to have more conversations with you as a way to connect with you emotionally.
You have to manufacture things like, I'm dumb, who wrote Siege?
You know, like this is the only options you really are given.
You know, and it also comes about from consuming so much information about male sexual pleasure that you don't really ever figure out what you yourself want.
And then women in the movement do things like go cheat on men, like was it Faith Goldie recently who there was some big drama about?
But of course men get cheated on.
Apparently she fucked Richard Spencer and like My response to that is that is the most self-absorbed couple to ever fuck.
Like, imagine those two... They're just each staring into mirrors on the other one's face in that scene.
I just... I had a very visceral reaction to knowing that those two fucked.
It was not a pleasant image.
And now everyone else has that image, so... Please continue, I apologize.
Ugh.
Rip.
No, I mean... Yeah, that's... You know, that's what traumatized me.
All this time I've never been traumatized before, but the image of that is what's gonna do it.
But yeah, of course you end up getting cheated on because all you've ever done is tell this woman that her self-worth is all tied up in how attracted you are to her.
And over time, of course, people stop exhibiting the same level of fierce primal attraction as they did in the beginning.
And so if your self-worth is tied to that, you're gonna go seek it out again.
And you're not really sure how to get it back for yourself because you've never done anything other than care about someone else's pleasure.
And you can't live like that forever It will become unsatisfying at some point And so, you know, I just think there's a lot of like depressing Unsatisfied women on the alt-right and that's very tragic and you know, they at least form like a lesbian pact do something I mean, there was a podcast called Helicopter Mom, which is, fortunately or unfortunately, No longer with us.
Although, you know, the archives might exist somewhere.
Might.
We won't make that, you know, direct comment there, but it might still exist somewhere on someone's... And, you know, obviously it's the helicopter man, the, you know, the throwing communists out of helicopters mom.
And so it's a cute pun, right?
And it's funny, like, how much that podcast was, you know, it started out as a little bit more of an edgy show where they're kind of talking about You know, kind of the political stuff and, you know, it ends up being more like a home and hearth kind of podcast.
And they would do call-in shows where basically it's all men listening to them, or like majority men because, I mean, just the people consuming this media are overwhelmingly men.
And they would ask about, you know, how do I get a girl to like me?
And it is this very, like they're seeking out approval and they're seeking out advice from these women in this kind of context in which they're allowed to do so, in which they're not expected to necessarily be the kind of strong man who kind of knows everything.
And a lot of them seem to be really young guys.
It's kind of hard to tell just from their voice.
But I mean, it's again that kind of role-in-the-arturer kind of thing that these women who do kind of become content creators, who do kind of become leaders in the movement, end up kind of holding men's hands in a lot of ways.
And I don't know.
I find that dynamic interesting.
Yeah, but the men don't view that as anything of value because they systematically devalue women's labors.
It's all of the emotional labor that women put into them.
They think that that is either the unconditional state of women and so it's nothing special, or they just refuse to even acknowledge the necessity of it, even as they so desperately need that love.
But I think, I don't know, I mean, I think that's part of why women terrify them is because they know that women wield a tremendous amount of power in terms of the reliance on women for emotional stability, for processing things that happen socially, for, you know, sexual gratification, all of these things.
And, you know, I think you see a lot of evidence that they are afraid of that power that women have and rather than acknowledging that It takes people sharing their gifts and their position in society to make things function happily, that everyone contributes something, and it's worthwhile, and perhaps you have value just by nature of you existing, and you don't actually have to labor on behalf of the white race to deserve love, you know?
You know, if someone maybe would just tell them that, then it would all be very good!
Awesome.
No, you're right.
Any comments on NOCAP?
Oh, jeez.
Again, I'm sure you could wrap this up in about 15 seconds.
Yeah, I mean, so I think that the spirit of NoFap, while a little bit misguided perhaps, does make a lot of sense.
So the original idea being that if you stop jerking off and watching porn so much that you will go out and be incentivized by your sex drive to go talk to women.
And it's a good thing to do.
You should go out and you should meet women and you should speak to them in person and you should treat them like people who have something to offer you that you could perhaps also offer something to, right?
And that it's a good idea when you talk to other people who aren't like you.
And then, you know, while maybe using your sex drive as an incentive for that is not necessarily my recommendation, perhaps you could talk to women who you aren't sexually attracted to also as though they were people.
Might be a little bit better.
You know, but I understand the spirit of it.
No, no, no.
Not an option.
Not an option.
Yes, I guess if you've gone long enough, you'll find more and more women attractive.
So maybe it's a good thing in the long run?
I don't know.
Sorry, that's a very deeply fucked up thing to say.
No, I mean, as someone who the Pratt Boys have many times posted pictures of me in their groups and asked how many beers, I think it is definitely true that those things vary with time and space and alcohol consumption.
I have not had that pleasure yet.
We'll see.
The pleasure of no faps?
No, no, the pleasure of them posting my photo in there, you know.
And asking how many, that's fair.
You know, but then someone like Evan McGinnis gets a hold of an idea like no faps and it's like, oh, so what you're saying is that men can be led around by their sex drives?
This is excellent, you know?
And like as a weird, creepy grifter, it's just like, nobody has sex and said go out and pour all of your sexual energy out onto the nearest woman that you want to fuck and it's like, oh god.
Don't do that.
Or beating up communists.
That's the other way.
Right.
Find another emotional release.
But I do think that the alt-right is not wrong, and the right generally is not wrong to notice that things like having an unhealthy obsession with satiating your sense of self-worth by masturbating over and over again throughout your day.
There was recently a poll on a channel that I'm in that asked how many times people masturbated a day, and most people said one to two.
which seems fairly exceptionally high, I think.
I think I don't think it's exceptionally high for society, but it does seem like perhaps a thing that isn't the most normal.
I think most women perhaps wouldn't find that.
I mean, normal is not in a in a moralistic sense, you know, but something that maybe would surprise people, you know, but there were several people, you know, I mean, it was like a good 15% of the poll who said like four more times a day.
You know and and I think that there is a point that anything done to an extreme is not good some amount of masturbating sounds good and healthy and Beneficial to your health and your happiness and all those things you should masturbate some great if you want to or you don't want to that's fun You know, that's all good and fine and healthy But if it's something that is replacing your ability to ask why you feel so down all the time why you need something to constantly make you feel good, you know like it does sometimes substitute for that level of self-reflection in ways that are unhealthy and in ways that are massively incentivized by
Yeah, I think we're kind of wrapping up just a little bit here.
You know, we've gone a little over an hour.
Is there anything that you'd like to add?
but impacts men the most in that particular way, you know, every day, constantly, all day.
Right, right.
Yeah, I think we're kind of wrapping up just a little bit here.
You know, we've gone a little over an hour.
Is there anything that you'd like to add, anything that I didn't kind of bring up, or any topics you'd like to bring to my attention that maybe you think I should know about or talk about?
Good question.
I would say maybe just, like, what would be good and healthy for them.
You know?
No, we do have, I mean, I figure, based on the numbers I'm getting, I figure we have a couple hundred overt fascists who are listening to these episodes.
So, what would you say to them, maybe?
Yeah, I mean, I would say that, so one really frustrating thing that feminists have dealt with for some time, perhaps since bell hooks took one of the best and first looks at masculinity and like really took seriously the pain that men felt, you know, as a feminist in public,
And I think ever since then there's been this deep frustration with kind of pop science or pop culture productions of sociology that talk about how men are suffering but refuse to name the structural problem of patriarchy.
And Bell Hooks talks about this a lot in her work, right, this idea that we'll publish a book that says that boys are so sad and we'll publish things that say that men report higher rates of depression or they commit suicide at higher rates.
But we assume that the problem has to be the opposite side of the antagonism, assume that the problem has to be women, and not that both men and women can be simultaneously suffering massive amounts of pain at the same time.
And yes, the nature of patriarchy is such that women do get some of the more violent end of this, that domestic violence is endemic, that women are treated very harshly, that they lose economic freedoms because of patriarchy.
But also that patriarchy makes men suffer.
And so if I could say anything, I think, to the fascists watching this, I would say find a feminist like bell hooks and read it and see if it resonates with you because you deserve to be whole as well.
And frankly, everyone could really use it if you were whole, because if you were whole, you wouldn't feel the need to destroy everything that makes you down.
And you also wouldn't feel so destroyed yourself.
And I'm happy to put a link to some things in the episode notes.
You know, or just like, I would be happy to do that labor.
You can also talk to me on Twitter or whatever, and I'd be happy to talk to you.
Yeah, Stevie will actually talk to you.
I will, you know, people do message me and I do try to get back to them.
I've been inundated lately with stuff, but...
Yeah, I'm like a month behind on my email.
Both people I like and people I don't like.
Back to everybody, I apologize.
Just for everybody who's emailed me, I will get back to you.
But no, I mean, there is an attempt to respond to people who are kind of talking in good faith and to kind of lead people out of it.
I cannot recommend highly enough.
Bell Hooks is awesome.
I've read a bit of Bell Hooks myself.
It's interesting that so many anti-feminist men, people who fall into that general right-leaning category, Reed Dworkin, who they call Dworkin, is very aggressive and has, you know, I'm perfectly willing to kind of take the good with the bad sort of thing and I'm not here to kind of debate the merits of Dworkin at this point.
But certainly, you know, they approach it as something that I'm going to disagree with so I'm going to take the most aggressive version of this as opposed to really trying to find a You know, someone they can find common ground on.
And Bell Hooks is definitely someone that I think a lot of men who are hurting and who are looking for, you know, that kind of language to express their feelings into, honestly, have better relationships with women, could absolutely read some Bell Hooks.
I'd highly recommend that.
Yeah, you know, and I think what people don't appreciate about feminism is that just because it's something that's primarily written to help men become less violent towards women doesn't mean you're not getting anything out of it.
It doesn't mean it's not going to do anything for your spirit and your soul.
You know, it'll help you, like you said, get better connections to people, not just women, but also To connect more meaningfully with men, you know, by asking questions like, why is it that there always have to be emotional walls up with all of my male friends when we need emotional comfort?
Why are we not there for each other in the same way that the woman I'm sleeping with is?
You know, maybe it's not just because she's sleeping with me.
Maybe it's because the expectations, you know, are different there.
And, you know, maybe, and honestly, it's not even just women that you sleep with.
It's all of the women all of the time that you're constantly pouring out all of your feelings to.
It's so dire.
So dire.
And not to make it about this and not to push on this too hard, but treating women is a good way to get laid.
Just saying.
It actually works fairly well.
Just putting it out there.
And for the record, I would say that Bell Hooks is a much more radical feminist than Dworkin is.
And that's the thing.
If you're going to pick the radical feminists, at least pick the radical feminists that are radical in the ways that will speak to you.
You don't even have to get less radical.
You can pick the most radical of people.
No, no, I wasn't meaning to imply that bell hooks is not- Oh, no, I- No.
Well, and just, I guess, again, just to wrap up, I mean, this whole movement, or set of movements, is often built on finding people to blame.
It's the black people, it's the trans people, it's women, it's the Jews, it's always the Jews, and all the parentheses, et cetera, et cetera.
There is this resistance to looking at the systemic issues that aren't really anybody's fault.
That's the other thing about that.
Even the venture capitalists, It's something that was born before you and that will probably exist after you and that you're not responsible for, but we'd like your help in fixing it.
And that's the project of leftism as far as I'm concerned.
I'm over-simplifying, but the failure to even consider systemic issues is kind of the fundamental failure mode of the far right, and really the right in general.
No, I absolutely agree with that.
And it really does hurt their ability to understand their own position in the world.
And I don't think that they benefit from not understanding or having a good grasp on why things are the way that they are.
Well, again, anything else you want to add before we wrap up here?
I don't think so.
I think that's good.
Well, hopefully you'll come back and we can talk about some other topics, and I'll talk about Cantwell's dick slightly less.
Not no Cantwell's dick, just less Cantwell's dick.
Just 80% Cantwell's dick.
80% of Cantwell's dick.
Please tell people where they can find you.
What's your Twitter, etc.?
Where do you want people to find you?
Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at, not colloquial, N-O-T-C-O-L-L-O-Q-U-I-A-L.
And I have, like, some stuff I wrote a few years ago on Medium and a YouTube channel that you can find through my Twitter profile.
But, yeah, Twitter's really the better place.
I think I neglect pretty much everything else at this point.
Yeah, it's very easy to do.
We're all slaves to the Twitter monster.
So, yeah.
I'm at Daniel Lee Harper.
You can message me if you'd like to.
I will get back to you eventually.
I apologize.
And with that, I guess we're done.
Thanks a lot CB for joining.
Next episode, so we are going to miss next week because I'm going on vacation unless Jack puts something out which I don't think he's going to.
Just again, programming note, this summer we're going to
