Russell Brand and Joe examine how past mistakes—like Joe’s GBH conviction and unresolved legal battles—haunt sobriety, especially for men with criminal records facing UK DBS checks. They explore AA’s "Step Nine promises" of emotional freedom versus the crushing weight of regret, contrasting self-built lives ("sand") with spiritual foundations ("rock"). Joe’s amends to a driving instructor years later reveal recovery’s paradox: healing others often frees oneself. Early AA founders like Dr. Bob and Saint Paul’s Romans echo this surrender, but modern recovery culture risks transactional traps. The episode argues true redemption demands letting go of worldly validation, embracing divine alignment over fear or guilt. [Automatically generated summary]
Thanks for joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Brand.
I'll be doing my show Crack On with Joe and Dave.
Dave won't be here.
He's actually off taking drugs somewhere.
No, he's not taking drugs.
I don't know what he's doing.
He'll be all right.
But in crack on, we talk about recovery and the principles of recovery, 12-step recovery.
And although we're not affiliated with any particular 12-step group, we often reference this, the masterpiece that is the Alcoholics Anonymous big book.
I'll also be bringing you a variety of content, and this is something we've not done before.
I'm going out into the Florida panhandle like a rogue redneck and talking to people about the Epstein files, about the Super Bowl, about Minneapolis, about a culture that's falling apart.
One of the things that we say all the time is that we've become remote, lost in the black mirror and in the cracked screens, isolated and atomized.
So if I go out and get face-to-face among people, talk to them directly, particularly since it's Florida, and everyone here agrees with one another anyway.
It's more likely that there'll be a bit of human connection.
So stay with us.
If you're not watching us on Rumble, get over to Rumble and join us here.
The truth is, actually, I was going to be interviewing Mike Benz, but Mike Benz, I mean, from the first time I met him, I thought this guy's going to get murdered if he keeps starting saying stuff like this.
And he has kept saying stuff like this.
So he's either been murdered or I pray that he's all right.
I hope Mike Benz is all right.
The Epstein files are out.
This is Epstein Files is Mike Benz Christmas.
So he could be doing any one of a number of things.
Remember, if you ain't got Rumble Premium yet, get Rumble Premium now.
Stay with us for Cracked On, where we'll be talking about the principles of recovery.
And also for content like this.
This ain't the Lord.
I'd say there's a lot of objectification, a lot of paganism, like very deliberate and definitive position.
I mean, I don't know, man, what's the culture selling?
But now it's time for crack on with Russell and Joe.
This podcast is not allied with nor endorsed by any particular 12-step fellowship.
Although we may reference their literature, we do not represent these organizations.
The primary purpose of this podcast is to provide additional support to men and women who walk the path of recovery.
We share our personal experience of the 12 steps in the hope that others can benefit.
Take what is useful, disregard what isn't.
Apologies in advance for any offense caused.
Any problems, take them to your God and to your sponsor.
That wasn't me that did that then.
Looked like some of my mouth helps actually check.
Joe, should we be a bit more personal this time?
I don't mean personal to the point of putting ourselves at risk, but I mean personal to the point of honesty.
What's happening for you in recovery?
Have you got any resentments?
In a sense, like people that are in recovery, like me and Joe, somewhat long term, me, 20 odd years, Joe, five years.
You're not like usually like, I'm going to drink, I'm going to take drugs.
It's normally more like, I can't cope with people.
I can't cope with relationships.
I can't cope with reality.
In the fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous, they use the idiom the pink and the green, men do at least, meaning the money and the honey.
It's often relationships or finance-related issues, and that's probably that's the same for life in or out of recovery.
Resentments are when you have some resistance or objection to, or some negative or otherwise negative feeling about the events and facts of your life.
My favorite bit of writing about that, which I've mentioned before in this podcast, is when we have a resentment, we usually find at some point in the past we've made a decision based on self that's put us in a position to be hurt.
And every time I know, have I got resentment?
Yeah, I do always find I've made a decision in the past based on self that's put me in a position to be hurt.
So, Joe, do you have any obvious resentments right now that you can talk about?
Is anything troubling you?
And we'll go through it together.
Yeah, I mean, at the minute, a lot of stuff, man, a lot of stuff's come back around from my past that's you know, like previous convictions and stuff.
Like, due to my alcoholism and drug addiction, I ended up going to prison twice.
And, you know, that stuff don't really go away.
I mean, in terms of like spent convictions, they're spent and all that.
I don't think about it no more.
But when you try and progress in life, sometimes you have to declare that stuff or in, you know, certain jobs or like even trying to get into the States.
Like, it's proven to be a huge issue.
And I guess, like, at the moment, where I'm at, man, like everything's agitating me.
That's the truth.
I feel like five years clean and sober now, right?
Things should be different.
Before I come into recovery, I was just about hanging on to an apartment in a nice little area, quite an affluent area.
I had a pretty good job that was a career, essentially.
And I had like a physical and mental breakdown when I got sober.
That was when the wheels all fell off.
The intermittent sprees were chaotic, but the stuff in between, somehow I was holding it together.
When I stopped, I lost everything.
And it's been a slow rebuilding process for me.
And I'm feeling like if things should be better, man, like things should be better.
I should be doing better.
You know, and my efforts to progress, this bullshit come up from my past with DBS checks and stuff like that.
What's DBS check mean?
A DBS is where you like a government check on your criminal past.
And then, like, you know, if it's a job or whatever, they'll get a print out of your convictions, custodial sentences, and charges, even if they're spent, even if it was 10 years ago, 15, whatever it was.
Do you know what I mean?
So that stuff can still cause problems.
And like the work I was moving into, like the security stuff, and that there's like a creditors that want to do checks before they license you and this and that.
So it's been a bit of a problem there.
I'm going through an appeals process.
With right, so you know enough about recovery now to know I reckon where what you're experiencing, where it lies in the principles of our program that are solution-oriented, right?
Actually, I don't yet, other than it's probably a bit eight and nine, we're in a probably, we're probably in an eight and nine thing.
There's like there's like it's a because it's wreckage of the past.
That's what I'm thinking, right?
Um, but like, I and wreckage of the past means like one of the fate AA promises are extraordinary, actually.
Do you Joe, do you happen to know where the AA promises are?
87, I think.
What?
87, 86.
Here we go.
Yeah, so like, so it's, it's travels from 83.
So these are the famous Alcoholics Anonymous promises.
If we're painstaking about this phase of our development, so it's talking about doing step nine, and step nine is you make amends where appropriate to all the people you've harmed in your life.
If we're painstaking, if we risk pain about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through.
We're going to know a new happiness and a new freedom.
We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.
No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.
That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
Self-seeking will slip away.
Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.
We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.
And these extravagant promises, we think not.
They're being fulfilled among us, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
They will always materialize if we work for them.
It's a sort of a much cited and quoted part of the 12-step literature.
One can understand why that would be.
It's extremely positive.
Perhaps, Joe, there's a couple of things I'd love to do in our time together today.
One is I'd love to hear a version of your story.
And in particular, because you've got such a positive message to share for men that have served custodial sentences and of course men that are in jail still, I'd love you to focus on that aspect of your story.
Before we do that, let's break down these promises together, mate.
Anything you notice or you want to tell me, tell me as we go for it.
If we're painstaking about this phase of our development, obviously the word.
Painstaking.
Painstaking.
Like, this is going to be hard.
You've got to fucking go for it.
There's no holding back.
There's no, no, like previous to you sponsoring me, I had a little guy at this and I was not painstaking.
And it's as far as I got to step nine.
And I didn't really, didn't really do it.
And subsequently drank again after a year.
I just thought, fuck it.
I'm done with it.
You know what I mean?
But if you are painstaking, if you are like, I've dealt with my biggest harm caused, that was the first one we went for, I remember.
And I thought I'd be told, nah, look, leave that one alone because step nine is make direct amends wherever possible, except when to do so would cause harm to others.
So I kind of thought, oh, maybe this will bring up too much pain for the victims here, I guess, you know.
And it's not one that I've been able to make yet.
Although the person is, they know that I'm willing to, and at some point they may want to sit down and have a chat, but it's a very serious one.
We can't make this content without the support of our partners.
I don't think we actually can yet because we're in a sort of contractual related.
Yeah, we can't make this content without the support of our partners.
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Knowledge Matters00:15:40
What's the best ever painstaking amends you've ever heard in the since you've been involved in AA?
Like most painstaking one I've heard a whole lot of time.
I've got a good one.
I heard from Sandy Beach, right?
Let's see if this provokes anything new.
Sandy Beach, right, said, oh man, this is a good and right.
This guy, I think he was a crack and smackhead and he'd like rob up and down like one street.
And like, I think at the beginning, like his sponsor goes, you should probably make amends to all them people.
That one street you used to rob the whole time.
I guess he was in the neighborhood.
And so whenever he needed something, he would just nick stuff from up and down that road.
And the geezer goes, I can't.
It's too embarrassing.
I'm not willing to do it.
And the sponsor says brilliantly, well, if there comes a point where it's on your head too much, tell me and we'll deal with it.
And like, he's like, the guy's like, it never will be.
And then sure enough, sooner or later, the guy's like, actually, no, it's bothering me.
It's bothering me.
And he's like, all right, so let's do it then.
So the guy goes up and down that street, knocking on doors, telling people, listen, your house, I used to rob your house in between this era and this, you know, this date and this date.
Anything I took, I don't have very much money right now.
But if you can remember anything that I've stolen, and people like, a lot of people are like, whoa, okay.
You know, like mostly that sort of stuff.
People are baffled and confused by it.
Because what I love about it, Joe, is like when you're on that journey, you're like, who are you?
Like a person that's like that, you might as well be Frodo or someone in the Shires, innit?
You've like elected to step out of reality and you're on some quest.
And like it doesn't, unless you meet someone else, like a fellow traveler, like Neil, like, oh, you're on the trip, man.
Like, you know, people are just like, what are you doing?
You didn't have to do that.
Because your whole, the whole world is geared to get whatever you can get, take whatever you can take, get away with whatever you can get away.
Anyway, one door this geezer knocks on.
They say, the woman answers the door and goes, our son is a drug addict.
And we've been blaming him.
And it's like, he always said he never done it.
Like, you know, like they get like, they go, like, our son, like, he's a heroin addict.
And whenever stuff will go missing from our house, we go, you little bastard, you've been nicking stuff.
He would always go, I wouldn't do that.
I've not done it.
And he actually hadn't.
So they went, thank you for relieving us of that thing.
So the guy had this sort of miraculous encounter that ended up absolving.
They said something like, thank you for relieving us of the false condemnation of our son, who we now know is innocent.
So it's like he entered into a field of the miraculous.
I think that can only happen if you're painstaking because in staking pain, you are like anything else is bollocks, isn't it?
Anything else is bollocks.
Like if it's like, I can make amends, it doesn't cost me.
And I've got to be honest, Joe, I spend so much of my time in that territory generally.
Like, you know, it's sort of, you know, giving a homeless person some money, but it don't cost me nothing.
Being nice to the people that are in my immediate environment.
That's no different than cleaning your teeth, being nice to the people you interact with.
It's just, if you don't do that, you're an idiot.
Like if you, you know, like it says, like our Lord, love your enemy.
Like, because even the tax collectors love their friends, you and you hate them and despise them.
Are we going to raise the bar on the general sort of responsible ethics of being pleasant to people that you have to interact with regularly.
So step nine and the painstaking component of step nine is an invitation to step outside of the rules of reality.
And it's an extremely Christian idea because it's you are, I think, signaling to reality that you are no longer operating on the level of worldliness.
Painstaking says taking pains, showing care, taking pains, showing care, dictionary definition.
If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through.
We are going to know the new freedom, freedom.
I mean, that's the aim, freedom.
Like we're not going to be in bondage.
And a new happiness was like the old, the happiness we used to know somehow was not real.
We will not regret the past.
Now, isn't that fascinating?
Because you think both you and I, like, I'm still in the sort of judicial process that requires sensitivity for me and carries a degree of complexity because as I've said before in this show, I recognize that, particularly as I learn more and more about the particularities of the case, that my moral responsibility,
my moral responsibility is great and the burden of guilt is significant as a man that's awake and lives in the world and doesn't want to interact with people in a way that's detrimental to them.
But because I'm not in the box of morality, I'm in the box of judicial criminal proceedings.
I'm, you one wonders.
Are you able to enter into that world and go, yeah, I really have sinned.
But can I tell you, what's the definition of these particular charges?
That's what rape means, right?
And that's what sexual assault means.
That means without consent.
Well, that's not what happened.
So it's like I have the complexity of anybody.
Well, it's not a big deal, really.
Anyone who's saying not guilty to anything, otherwise you wouldn't need a trial.
You just go, did you do that?
Yes, see ya.
Anyone is like, no, not guilty.
That's now we're in, you know, we're in this business.
So like, but what I want to say is we will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
It's very hard, isn't it, Joe, to sort of say, I don't regret the past when you know for a fact there are people that have been hurt by you because there's a sort of a callousness in saying, well, I don't regret it.
How do you with the step nine that when me and you were sort of talking about and around like, you know, talk about it in a way that's sensible, like your step nine is.
Yeah.
Like, so I completely agree with what you're saying there.
I, when I would hear that in meetings, I think, how could you not regret the past?
You'd have to be fucking mad.
Like when you're sat in them meetings and like slowly like the fog's starting to clear and you're getting a, you know, a better perspective on the harms you've caused.
I find that I've found it near impossible not to regret my whole fucking life up to that point, to be honest.
You know what I mean?
But there's been times where my experience has been useful to someone else.
And I've seen a look in their eye like, oh, I get it.
I understand.
You know, like they've shared a similar experience.
And for me, like one of them was when I did a chair, I spoke at an AA meeting in prison, like going in as like a guest from outside.
Do you know what I mean?
And I told my story and I explained like the first serious consequence for me was a custodial prison sentence for GBH or intent, which is like, it's one step down from attempted murder.
It's a really fucking serious charge.
And obviously that was a direct result of drinking.
It's not saying I was a dumb or, you know, I wouldn't get into that kind of situation as a sober man.
But that happened, you know.
When I was sentenced, I was sentenced to four years and four months that ran concurrent for an assault that went with it.
And at the time, I couldn't believe it.
I thought, fucking hell, that's like, I'm done by here.
Now, I didn't really know that can come with a life sentence, right?
I didn't understand that at the time.
I shared on this in this particular meeting and a fella in there shared back to me.
And he said, look, I want you to know that I have the same experience as you.
First offence, drunk, some sort of road rage incident or whatever.
And he got 12 years.
He got 12 years, you know?
And the moment there of like, you know, wow, I really felt him.
I felt his pain.
Guy's got young kids and the misses.
And hopefully my experience there and going into that prison and showing him now I'm a few years sober.
I'm doing my best out here.
I sponsor other men through this program so that they don't have to make these same mistakes.
And this, it was God's permitted will, everything what's happened to me up till now.
And here I am doing my best, you know, and that's all you can do.
And be ultimately it is useful to other people.
And I often get that with people that have had suicidal ideation, suicide attempts.
And I say, yeah, I know what that's like.
I know what that's like.
I've done that.
And all of a sudden, in a weird way, you think, well, if I hadn't had that experience, would this geezer be able to open up to me in the same way?
Maybe not.
I don't think so.
So I think that's where it comes in, you know.
I think there's no way people could open up to you because I think even the price of entry is that recognition between people.
The other side to the identification that you were able to share while doing service in a prison is the person that suffered as a result of your actions and the ongoing consequences.
Now, what measures have you taken or can be taken sensitively and within the sort of suggested terms of the program?
What do you think needs to be done and could be done?
And what do you think is there?
Because obviously there was a victim to the crime that you've described.
How do you see that, Joe?
I think the idea of this step is like complete humility, right?
Some people say, and I think they get it wrong, like, oh, it's for you to be, and it's not, it's not for me.
Like, it's for the person.
You've caused them significant harm.
They want a bit of peace.
Yeah.
So you go to them in humility saying, look, I caused you harm.
This is what I've done.
I'm not like that today.
That's not the man I want to be.
If I don't put this right, there's a chance I'll drink again.
Can't ever go back to that.
What can I do for you?
How can I make an amends?
I'm sorry.
I always say sorry as well because I'm sorry.
But I want to owe you an amends.
Is there anything I can do for you?
And that gives that person an opportunity to say, no, fuck off.
You're a scumbag.
I never want to see you again.
If that's good enough for them and they sleep well, peace.
Everyone's got peace.
Job done.
But they might say, look, it's good to see you on your path.
They might want to add a little bit.
Actually, you're forgetting you also did this and you also did that.
This is how it affected me.
I want you to know how I was affected.
Now all this you're getting that it could go anyway, but we're clearing the.
This is really clearing the records of the past and it might not be the way I want it to go, but ultimately, once it's said and done, if I bump into them in Tesco's or another shop or whatever, like we've cleared it up, we've cleared it up and you can move on.
And not only that, you're for yourself, you're doubling down on.
I'm not that person anymore.
This is not the man I am today and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to set this right with the actions, not just words and not just sitting in meetings and all that stuff.
You know I'm being it I'm.
It's a spiritual program of action and this is me acting like the man that I want to be, that I should be like with um.
With um, when you've done that, like when you do do that approach someone and say to them, um, like it's I think it's like casting a spell and I don't mean that in a deceptive way, I mean summons in like almost prophetically, one might say the presence of God.
When you speak the words.
You may know or you might not know.
You know, you will say to the person that I'm a member of, and then you might say a particular 12-step group.
Part of my program of recovery is, I have to make amends to people that I've wronged.
I've wronged you, I used you and I shouldn't have done that.
I didn't think about the impact of my actions upon you.
I put my own needs ahead of yours.
I didn't think about your needs.
I shouldn't have done that.
What I should have done is I should have thought about how my conduct was affecting you and then, like you say, I'm not.
I'm not like that anymore.
I don't live like that.
I don't drink, I don't take drugs and I don't engage in other forms of addictive conduct that like that.
That's not the man that I am and I, in order for me to continue on the path, I have to let you know that's how I feel and tell you that I'm willing to make amends.
I want to make amends now.
Is there anything that I've not said that you want to add, and is there anything I can do for you?
I'd like to suggest that I can do this.
Is there anything you'd like to suggest?
Right, I think that's like the kind of territory that you want to be in and I'm what's mad Joe is like, say with like, your situation, which I consider is perhaps somewhat unresolved with regard to the matter we've been discussing eh, and with mine, it's pretty obvious that what I'm talking around is see, I'm in a situation where, as a result of criminal criminal, judicial proceedings, I've got to be,
I've got to keep my mouth shut right and I think anyway everyone, I mean you know, as soon as you say not guilty, that's your position and that's my position.
But it also forecloses on the possibility of like.
How does this get like?
You know is, Is this the best way to resolve?
This is, through this, the theater and drama of, you know, the sort of situation that that I'm participating in, and of course I'm willing.
God's will man, God's will.
I'm down of, totally down.
But what I mean to say is that isn't it interesting to see the intercession of human institutions in a place of the spirit?
Indeed, how can you even have law without God?
You can't have law without God because you can't have justice, you can't have right, you can't have wrong.
So when human beings attempt to sort of marshal these powers, these principles of these ideas, they're in the territory of God, like human institutions are in the territory of God when making a claim to justice or right and wrong or the arbitration of the difference between right and wrong.
Human beings are in that role now, and of course, human beings.
Well, it's not gonna be an angel or a cloud or a vapor, or Jesus, Jesus Self, till the second coming.
So of course it would be humans.
But there has to be tangible, verifiable, measurable standards via which we know, straight as an arrow, clear as day, you're dealing with God.
Support My Rumble Wallet00:02:19
And anything that appears to get in the way of that, that's some murky gear right there because it's in God's domain.
And the very fact that I can't have a, I guess I suppose I could have done, like, you know, when I'm thinking of the people that have been so harmed by.
by my conduct that they are willing to participate in criminal judicial proceedings, about which my views are clear.
The fact is that maybe if, at some point in the past, if I'd gotten on and found a way, found a way of contacting, reaching out, making clear because I've had a couple of those ones, like like you described mate where, where I've made amends to people, I'm having an NAD shot right now, an NAD well drip in fact.
It's sort of okay, like Nurse Nikki's administering it when it kicks in like what I feel is a bit sort of like Swallowy kind of finally you'd like it.
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Like, I've had a I've made a couple of amends with people where they've done, where, like, where they've said.
It's all right, I think.
I mean, like, I'm probably going to be here 40 minutes.
So this one is, you don't need to mess it up if you change it.
It's this one.
Got it.
Thanks, Nersticky.
Cheers.
No, sorry, we didn't interrupt.
Didn't interrupt.
That's part of life.
Eckhart Tolle once goes, like, if someone says to you, sorry, I'm waiting, sorry to have kept you waiting, say, I wasn't waiting.
I was living my life.
It's not an interruption.
It's all just life.
I'm just, I'll just take whatever.
I'll just take whatever you put in front of me.
It's all coming from God.
But like a couple of times, right, I've had them, mate.
Like the kind of amends where the person goes, yeah, that was bad.
You did that.
And this is what also happened as a result of you doing that.
And then you have to just sit there and listen to it.
And it's, oh man, that's a, that's, one was where a geezer that I'd worked with that had run all like my live shows and that.
I just sacked him because I'd like, you know, I don't know, sort of, there was like, I was in, things were moving fast.
You know, there was a lot going on.
There's films, there's tours, there's all this stuff going on.
And like, so if people weren't doing what needed to happen when it was happening, it was all just very, you know, I'd had like a little group of people that revised it.
I'm not trying to, I suppose I am perhaps trying to mitigate responsibility.
But what I want to say is that choices were made somewhat in committee with me in the lead.
But you know how I am.
I can be impatient or whatever.
But I remember anyway, this geezer got sacked.
And later on, it didn't, I thought, well, that was a bit out of order the way he got sacked.
And then I ran into him because he was a promoter of gigs.
I think he'd promote either, it was Chappelle.
I was at a Chappelle show at the Apollo.
And like, I went, I had to, I sort of saw him and went, hey, listen, can I talk to you?
And he was like, yeah, okay.
And I went into like an office at the Apollo.
And I went, I'm, I owe you an amends.
I'm very sorry about the way that I prayed before it.
I think I spoke to my sponsor.
And I was, I'm very sorry about the way that I let you go.
You know, you deserved better than that.
And I should have handled it different.
And he did that exact thing.
Well, listen, let me tell you what happened as a result of that.
This is what happened to me.
Like, I lost my job.
And like he goes, and I was with you from when you were playing rooms with 50 people all the way to Wembley Arena and like 15,000 people.
And what's mad is like, I just never looked at it that way.
Like, you know, my, I'm completely oblivious to like another person's perspective on reality.
Oh, yeah, I suppose you could look at it like that.
Amends Made00:11:19
I suppose you could look at it like that.
It's very sort of instructive and difficult.
And just sort of listen to him.
And the thing is, I suppose, you know, it ain't like subsequent to that, I'm friends with him.
I'm not.
You know, but and I don't know what he feels, but I do know that I've, I suppose, I wonder, I suppose, Joe, if you're on a spiritual path, it's nothing to do with, well, I hope he thinks I'm a nice person because then you're still in the game, aren't you?
You're still in the game of what people think.
Like, there's been a lot of it because if you've moved fast through life doing a lot of stuff, and the fact is with alcoholics and addicts, is it's a, you've got a lot of energy.
You've got a lot of, like, what that is spirit.
It's spirit.
You've got a lot of spirit.
Like, when Jung says, as we talk about a lot, spiritus contra spiritum, and it, like, you know, it's part of what we're doing is we're sort of dampening down this kind of force in you.
And that force, when it's out there, you're throwing things down your neck.
People are getting smacked in the mouth.
You've having it off all over the gaff.
You know, it's a lot going on.
You know, if you, that energy has got to be contained, then promises are absorbed.
They're hard to believe.
And I guess what I would say, you know, based on where we've gone so far, they're intermittent, ain't they?
It's not like, you know, I'm not in a continual state of knowing a new freedom, but I have, I do sometimes know a new freedom.
I do sometimes know a new happiness.
I do sometimes not regret the past or wish to shut the door in it.
I love that idea.
And like, I am sort of, I guess in my optimum state, I don't wish to shut the door in it.
Like, I let go.
I can recognize what the feeling of I wish to shut the door and it is, because wouldn't it be nice to have all of the trial go away?
Wouldn't it be nice if, like, just then when you were explaining, you know, that you can't go America.
It's like, if you could go America now, you'd be in America.
Like, you know, like, it'd just be, come, America.
Like, it's annoying.
It's annoying that there are sort of these systems that are like, but that's it.
I mean, we, I guess we have to recognize God in all this.
We have no choice but to locate God and say, this is what these are, you know, well, like it says, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, at some point in the past, we've made a decision based on self that's put us in the position to be hurt.
I made the decision.
Do you know what I'm going to do?
So I'm going to really, really sleep around.
And every single one of those encounters was, yeah, this is, it was based on self.
It was based on self.
The whole period of my life was based on self.
Like the basis of it, the foundation, like we even think of that, you know, Matthew, the verse, like, you know, the famous almost nursery rhyme, like the child, the, you know, build your house on a rock, not on sand.
I built my house on the sand of self.
My identity and life was built on self.
And the rain came tumbling down and the floods came up and the house came a tumbling down.
If you build your house on the rock of Christ, the rock is ain't going nowhere.
But you, you know, you know, like any great metaphor and symbol, there's a great deal packed into that.
And to know what you're, you know, what you're saying no to, isn't it interesting that the rock is a solid thing that's standing the test of time and sand is a zillion billion uncountable number of different little molecular things, molecular things, not one God, one God.
We will comprehend the word serenity.
I actually didn't comprehend the word serenity.
I actually didn't understand what, I mean, I knew serenity, serenity, but like, you know, like that's a lot of us know in early recovery, what's this feeling where I'm sort of a bit bored kind of thing?
Like, it's like, well, that's peace.
That's your peace.
Like sometimes now, like, you know, the sound of like God, I don't know if you hear it where you live, but sometimes like you hear a wood pigeon, you get him in America, you get him in England.
Like just like this morning, I could hear one.
I'm like, oh, nature, peace, peace.
We will know, we will understand the word serenity, we know peace.
No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.
I feel like if Dave were with us, he'd really point out can benefit others.
Like, so it doesn't matter.
We will see, like, it's not that, no matter how far down the scale we've gone, we will see how our experience can benefit us, how our experience can be turned into a tidy fortune.
How it can be used to impress sexual partners to make a business, benefit others, benefit others.
Like, i.e., the goal of going far down the scale is your, as you demonstrated in your story of doing service in a jail, is to benefit others.
And then I really, what I like about this bit of writing coming up is what all good writing, I suppose, has to do in essence, what scripture does, you know, sort of beyond compare to the level of the sublime, at the level of the sublime.
And what this book does, you know, at points, I see this as a sort of a piece of obviously folk religious writing.
That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
Like they know it.
They know that, you know, that feeling of uselessness and self-pity.
Uselessness, I have no use.
And self-pity, I'm sort of engaged with it and I'm indulging the feeling of my pity.
Yeah, I know that feeling.
Yeah, I know the feeling of uselessness and self-pity.
I'll do anything to avoid that when it comes.
I live in here.
It's uselessness and self-pity.
The times in my life, the hours I've spent, the days, the things I've done to avoid it, uselessness and self-pity.
For them, they could just dismiss that in a line.
You know that feeling of uselessness and self-pity?
Like as if, take two bottles into the shower, not me.
You could just wash and go.
Like it's just like a phrase, that you feeling of uselessness and self-pity.
And then this Sandy Beach does this bit beautifully.
Sandy Beach, like a notorious, famous, I suppose you'd say, within AA circles speaker, died recently.
He's mostly lived in Tampa, Florida, but he was what's called a circuit speaker.
I meant that people would fly him in to hear him.
And he did, with this bit of the promises, I one time heard him on a tape say that note, the language here is very sort of not rational or logical.
That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
What happened to that feeling of uselessness and self-pity?
Well, it disappeared.
We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
Wow, what a change.
I was always only interested in selfish things.
Now I'm interested in my fellows.
And that self-seeking will slip away.
What happened to the self-seeking?
I don't know.
It just slipped away.
It's gone now.
Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change, right?
How will it change?
And then here's the list.
Fear of people and of economic security will leave us.
It's just left us.
We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
We will suddenly.
Now, in Scripture, when you hear words like immediately, when I noted this for my little old self, was in the temptations of Christ.
Like, I think in Luke, like Satan, it says, like, the devil took him in an instant to the top of a high mountain and says, these are the kingdoms of the world.
And I reckon, and I've not had this verified by a theologian, but I reckon, this is what I reckon about the Bible, is that when it says things like instantly or immediately, it's outside of time.
It's not saying really, really quickly.
It's like outside of time.
Because if Christ and the devil are in some sort of deadly game, a cat and mouse, where Christ is using scripture on the devil, as he will later with the Pharisees before his execution, if he's using scripture, which he himself has written, to bat away the devil, God the Son, God the incarnate Son, the man, as he's immediately been immediately, urgently,
directly after he's been identified as the Son of God, he's tempted.
And you're tempted in the wilderness.
You're not tempted in the city.
Not tempted.
When you're among fellows, you're alone.
He's completely alone.
He's completely alone with nothing, no food he's offered.
Firstly, the basic things of the flesh.
You hungry mate want a sandwich and he's no.
No no, no.
We don't live by bread alone.
Then in the one I like Luke, although there's differences in in different accounts he's offered, I can make you ruler over all the kingdoms of the earth.
Authority has been given to me and I can give it to ever I want.
I love that, man.
It echoes Job, like that God says in, you know, to like to the devil in Job, all right, go at it with Job.
I believe in him.
Go at it with him.
And like the devil hits him with everything he's got.
And Job, in spite of a lot of lamentation and pain, provides a kind of proto-passion.
Like he endures, Job does.
He ain't the son of God, but even our Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane does get to a level of, oh, of like, do I have to do this?
Do I have to do this?
Wants his mates to stay awake.
They won't stay awake.
And I like reading Job in conjunction with the passion in particular.
You get the idea, mate, like, because it describes Job very vividly.
Like, he's got worms in his skin and he's unrecognizable as a human.
And when you think of, and I know you Catholics love this, to think of him right bashed up, that our beloved Lord and Savior, like not recognizable as human.
I think that's what like Job has sort of gone through.
That you're not, he's not human anymore.
He's been so debased that he can't even know his own face anymore.
He doesn't know himself, you know?
And anyway, so like in that instant, in that instant of temptation, the reason I think that Golgotha, the sacrifice of Abraham, the sacrifice, potential, the offering of the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham, the offering of atonement by David and the eventual site of the temple that Solomon, where Solomon builds the temple, are the same place.
War With Yourself00:07:15
course because all these stories happen in one geographical reason region but i think also to let you know that god is outside of time yeah this is good This is good, Liam.
I'm transmuting.
I'm feeling powerful.
Man, if you ever feel like the system is trying to bring you down, if you ever feel like you're in a war, you probably are in a war.
You are in a war.
You're in a war with yourself.
You're in a war with the material world.
You're in a war with your own weakness.
You're in a war with a system that sees you only as a consumer.
Now, don't think I don't get the irony of the fact that this is a product we're selling.
But do you know who's selling you a lot of products?
All media.
All media all the time.
You know, the big pharma only advertise on the mainstream media so that the mainstream media don't tell you the truth about their stinking products.
Try reborn.
These products work for you.
I'm taking them myself.
They're my actual products that I believe in.
Triple tested, best ingredients.
For example, these electrolytes, do you know what they've got in them?
French salt.
French salt.
On eh.
They give you a little bit extra.
Listen, if you want a little bit extra, go for the French sauce.
Ask a manual macron.
If you need a little bit extra in your marriage, like a missus with a little bit extra downstairs, try the French sea salts.
Some people say you gotta be careful with the French sea salts because they give up too easy.
Like the actual French.
Oh my God, Saco Bleu.
Un Nazi.
Un Nazi, quick.
Give them the afetar.
Give them the afetar.
But not the French salts.
The French salts stay firm.
Oh man, I feel so powerful.
I feel like I could drive a digger.
I feel like I could get out and do some serious construction on this stuff.
I'm going to go chat to my man over there.
Look at him, he's grafting.
All right, mate.
Cole.
Thank you for Lannister.
Come on, come on, property in that.
What is this?
Skidsteer.
Please come and have a turn of driving it.
Yeah.
Thanks, mate.
How's it work?
Oh, mate.
Yeah, this is.
For safety, this is becoming a great day.
Try Reborn.
See, with creatine, look at that.
I can lift.
Look at my powers.
Oh, man.
Can I drive it in that direction?
Because it'll freak out Jake.
It'll be very fun.
Thanks, man.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
FREEDOM!
I love it. I love it.
TryReborn.com.
But using Reborn, it's like you've suddenly got another layer of power.
The creatine is coursing through my veins.
The element is coming through.
Oh, my God.
That was really generous.
I really appreciate you allowing me to do stuff like that.
So my whole life I felt like, oh, you're not allowed to do stuff like that.
So I think really where you get with the amends process, like you said a minute ago, that it's not about you, it's about them.
And I am one of those people that sometimes thinks I'm doing this.
I don't want it to be a I don't want to double down on the selfishness that's caused this mess, but it's not, but what it's about is like, it's not about the other person.
It's not, meaning it's not about the result, I suppose.
It's not about everyone that you do a step nine to going, you're a fine fellow.
I was wrong about you.
Well done.
Well done.
You're right.
That was consensual.
Yes.
Pat on the back.
Absolutely.
You were, yeah, brilliant.
Thanks.
It's not about that.
It's about so, but where I think it gets to from a scriptural, and I mean, of course, the Gospels, but additionally, the text of AA, is you're being invited to step outside of the bounds of reality as defined not only by you, the alcoholic or the addict, but by the individualistic, materialistic, fallen world at large.
That it's about, it's transactional.
There's a difference between a transaction, i.e., I'll do this for you, you did this for me.
Do you understand the deal?
I'm a famous, sexy person.
You seem to want some attention.
You want this partnership?
Or whatever transactions are made all over the gaff.
And our Lord substituting transubstantiation, paying our debt, paying our debt.
He pays our debt, a debt we can never pay.
He comes in and is like, Joe and Russell and none of these people are never going to sort it out.
I've got to do it myself.
Like that's different from a transaction.
And I think where we're being taken when it says fear of people and economic insecurity will leave us, we will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.
Man, we're in right there.
We're in the sacrifice of Christ.
We're in atonement.
We're in redemption.
We suddenly realize God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.
We could not save ourselves.
And what I think that means in an amends process, Joe, is there never was the victim and the perpetrator.
That was all an illusion.
That was the flesh game.
That was the world game.
That was the devil game.
Really, all there ever was was the flow of life and God saying, here, I have made you love me, worship, be in the world, be in the world.
And I was like, no, what about that?
Crazy crap all the time.
So like the, so in a sense, the immense process is we become right.
We become right with the world, with God's world.
We become righteous.
Righteousness granted by grace.
But we prepare ourselves.
We adopt the proper pose.
We turn away from the world.
We're like, oh, no, man, I'm just going to stop worshiping that crazy stuff.
I don't worship that no more.
Now I worship you, Lord.
Right, cool.
Now you're in.
You can participate with me.
The results aren't going to play out in the world.
You know, you're still going to do it because like the world is not, as the devil says, I am in control of the world.
The devil's in control of the world.
And he's got to do the job of making it all like, well, actually, this has been decided by a committee.
We're very smart people.
They have to do that, but it's evil.
It's pure, rank, naked, stinking evil.
So, yeah, them promises are the promises are, it's like the Ten Commandments.
It's in order for it to all make sense, you've got to have surrendered to God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Surrender To God00:09:24
I think like, like you say, you have to let go of the outcome as well.
It starts from a position of humility, innit?
Like that.
I understand when people say that it is for you.
It's so you can hold your head high and that you don't have to fear the past.
I've faced the past so that I'm all right.
But I just feel like to be sincere, really, it is about the other person getting an opportunity to heal from the harms that you've caused them.
And it ain't easy.
It ain't easy facing people, but God's with you.
And most of mine went all right.
I had quite a few where people just didn't want to talk to me.
That's the truth.
I had some other ones where like I was free of some guilt.
One of them that come to mind straight away, this guy was a driving instructor and he really helped me.
He was an older fella.
I really liked him.
He was a real lovely fella, you know, and he helped me get through my driving, my lessons and my tests and all that.
And I owed him like 100 quid, I think, 80 quid.
I remember it was 80 quid, right?
And it was on my mind for so long.
At the time, I couldn't hold down a job.
Everything was going on drinking drugs.
So I was basically unemployable.
Now I'd get a new job.
I'd last a little bit.
And in my head, it was like, as soon as I got my driving license, everything's going to be all right.
But the real problem was I couldn't stop drinking and using.
So I was fucking useless anyway.
And he got me through my test.
I passed.
And the same chaos continued.
And I never paid him.
And it was on my mind for years.
Every now and again, I'd think of him like, oh, I've got some money now.
I said, sort that guy out.
And he had a disabled daughter and everything.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And a few years later, I managed to find him.
I found his old website and that and I knocked on his door.
And he remembered me as well.
And it was actually a real beautiful experience.
And I told him, I'm in recovery.
I'm not like that now.
If there's anything I can do, there's the money.
I think an extra 20 quid as well.
I didn't have a lot of money at the time, but you know what I mean?
It was just, for me, that one felt good because I so badly, I didn't want to do that to him.
I didn't want to do that to him.
But I had no fucking choice.
Money comes in, bang, drink drugs straight away.
There was no other way of living for me at the time, you know?
And that one was a relief, man.
That was a relief to do that.
And I'm glad that it did go well.
That's beautiful, that one.
That's a beautiful one.
Can you remember what he said and how his little face was?
He just, he was shocked.
He goes, yeah, I do remember.
I can't believe it.
I really can't believe that.
I don't know what to say.
I just, I'm so shocked.
I just don't know what to say.
But in a nice way, like, you know, it was a nice look of shock.
Like, no one's ever, you know, done something like that.
It is bizarre, isn't it?
I don't know how I'd deal with it if someone knocked on the door, like, hey, look, you remember I robbed all that stuff off you.
Here it is, or whatever, you know.
It's not how it goes out there.
People don't live like that, you know.
So you're, I think that through the step nines, you are entering the world of the spirit.
You're living in a different way.
And you're doubling down on it.
Like, it's, this is me now.
This is how I live, work for God now.
And I'm all right with that.
It's so beautiful that what else is there to do?
I was thinking about how, like, in the early days of the 12th step, and I'm actually thinking, not of the early days, I'm thinking of day one.
You know, like Bob and Bill, the founders of AA, when they embarked upon the, I suppose, still Oxford group oriented process of restitution, I feel like Bob Justa, just Bob and the people that Dr. Bob sponsored, I think it was understood to be saying they'll take half a day in its entirety.
Like you just go around, I'm never so sorry about that.
And it shan't happen again.
I mean, I don't know what like what they were saying because I do crack up when I read the encounters that they were having.
Like, you know, for the famous alcoholic number three and the way that geezer's acting.
And I know good AA group here, you'd like it, mate.
Like, oh, gosh, I may or may not go.
And anyway, they sort of, they like, they know all the names of like, you know, it's like someone will like this big book study and they'll go things like they'll know that.
That's Bob D and that's L of C so and so on.
That was F all Donovan.
Like they know the names of they've done like the research of who the people.
Yeah, I love all that.
Because then they're like, they're actual people.
They're actual people.
And, you know, like with like I've heard you say, like, you know, they're like with the alcoholic number three there beating up the nurse in the war.
Bill Dotson.
And he's in a Bill Dotson.
Bill Dotson's in a political campaign and very next day.
It's very funny.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He does all right.
He does all right.
And he now he narrowly loses in some sort of campaign or something.
He narrowly loses in a campaign, Joe.
I mean, that's going on.
I don't know how true it is.
I heard that Dr. Bob did all of his step nines pretty much straight away because he couldn't stop drinking previous to that.
He was getting little spells of sobriety.
But it wasn't until Bill Wilson met and he said, all right, tonight, you know, get on your knees, give your life to God, bang, write your inventory, clear all your resentments.
Now let's list the people you've harmed and go out and making amends.
And you've done it all in that night and never drank since.
I remember you said to me, it was the best thing you said to me, actually, around that time, step nine, was to become the person you wouldn't otherwise be, you need to do the things you wouldn't otherwise do.
Whoa.
It's good that I say it sometimes and claim I made it up.
No problem.
Now you've admitted it on tape.
We've got it.
Yeah, that's good.
That's good idea.
Yeah, I've got that.
Like if you do things that you wouldn't do, I mean, that's in Romans, our beloved Saint Paul says, you know, what I don't want to do, I do.
And what I do want to do, I don't do.
And if you're like able through Christ to sort of allow it to take place, okay, that's where we've got to be now, Joe.
We've like, it's incredible, isn't it?
Because I suppose that's what our ongoing reluctance is to enter the culture of recovery.
The culture of recovery is millions of expressions.
Like when you're over in America, you learn that the church is the same.
There's a church for everyone.
There's churches where everyone's double good looking and it's glamorous.
There's churches where people are sort of serious.
There's churches like it's less lifestyle around it.
But really, what we want is to enter the kingdom.
Like that, when you get the idea that this is the thing, whether it's church or 12 steps, it's not, I'll do this until I get that back.
It's not that.
It's I'll do this till I realize there is no that.
There is no that.
There is no, oh, I go to church and I'll pray and then hopefully I'll get a family and hopefully I'll get some money.
There is no, I'll stop drinking and taking drugs and then hopefully I'll get a job and da da da.
No, it's like you get to the point where it's like we got to be, we got to be like willing to live in some sort of cold stone monastery in bliss.
And sometimes I think that would be bliss.
Sometimes I think that would be bliss.
Just tend to the allotment, pray, listen to nature, Bruce, brew up some monks.
Well, probably be best not doing the brewing.
I thought immediately set us up with cooking up with special meth that monks make.
Monk meth.
We've made our own fentanyl here in our monastery.
And if sorry you've not paid for your fentanyl, Joe was going to have to collect your debts, your penances there, your indulgences.
Already in 10 seconds, I turned a quiet monastery into a racket.
All right, Joe, I think it's a cartel.
We're pray our way out of it.
Oh, Heavenly Father, Lord God, thank you for the opportunity to be alive first and foremost and for us to have the principles of recovery laying before us.
And thank you for the gift of life and thank you for your church and for your son.
And thanks for the opportunity, Lord, that we may live in your spirit, in harmony with your spirit.
Lord, help us to align our will with your will and not to lament that our human, worldly, contaminated will can't be fulfilled, for that's impossible.
Lord, here on this plane, all of our schemes, our petty plans and dreams are nought and doomed to fall forever into naught.
Help us to stay in you and in your always adjacent, all-powerful glory.
In the name of Jesus Christ, we pray.
Amen.
Amen.
Thanks very much for joining us for Krakon with Joe and Russell.
Of course, if you're a person with problems with drugs and alcohol, you know how to solve that, don't you?
Go to the 12-step group, one that's got the word of the substance or behavior addicted to in its title and the word anonymous after that.