Crack On: What Comes After Addiction, Chaos, and Collapse — SF671
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We look at how surrender, addiction, faith, and power intersect beneath the surface of modern life, using recovery as a lens to understand politics, identity, and the collapse of self-will. The conversation moves from the spiritual mechanics of the 12 steps to wider questions about authority, nationhood, truth, and the false promises of control—whether through substances, ideology, or institutions—ending with a reminder that real freedom begins when the illusion of running the world finally breaks.
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Ladies and gentlemen, Russell Brand trying to bring real journalism to the American people.
Hello there, you awakening wonders.
Thanks for joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Brand.
The revolution moves apace.
The glory is upon us.
Wherever you're watching, just remember, if you go join us on Rumble, especially Rumble Premium, we benefit from that in ways that I can't even describe.
There are occultist reasons and interdimensional beings that will reward us for you signing up on Rumble.
I'm joined today, as always, to talk about the news, although the news continually changes by this brilliant team of fantastic men, many of whom, most of whom I'd say, have accepted Christ in their life.
There's our producer, Jake Smith.
All right, Jake.
Hey, good to be here.
Yeah, it's beautiful to see you.
There is local businessman, entrepreneur Dave Fields.
Hey, Dave.
Hello.
You've got your own podcast, of course.
I do.
I come on that sometimes, don't I?
You do.
And I'm probably one of your favorite guests.
The best.
So that was interesting.
You looked up to the right.
That's the lying side.
We've got Rob Zombie with us in the studio.
Hey, how y'all doing?
What's that in your mouth, Rob?
New grill.
New grill, new railings, new set of teeth.
Makes a change from what used to be in your mouth.
Either a crack pipe or a penis to pay for the crack pipe that would be following it.
If Rob Zombie can change and I can change, maybe the whole world can change.
Curtesy, Rocky Balboa.
Also, Joe McGann is with us.
He's there in the UK.
All right, Average Joe.
How are we doing, boys?
Pretty good.
We're going to get you to do more UK-based items where we investigate news stories in the UK, like get you to infiltrate things, interview people, stuff like that.
You know, like you did that brilliant reporting on the Tommy Robinson March.
Wanting to do more of that kind of thing.
Yeah, there's another one coming up actually in May, I believe.
Another protest, the same thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Really?
I saw it on Tommy Robinson's ex two seconds.
Let me pull it up.
He announced it last week, I think.
May 16th is the date.
Central London is the place the world is watching and your voice will be heard.
Make it, share it, be there.
Four one.
Four nations, one God.
Look, that's good.
Wow.
Four, what do you say?
Four races, one God.
Four nations, one kingdom under God.
Four nations, one kingdom under God.
I don't know about, well, mate, that's he's gonna eventually your love of Tommy Robinson will mess with your love of Ireland.
Stuff like that.
Four nations under God.
But hey, Massey, how are you doing?
You alright, mate?
Not bad, mate.
You good?
Well, I feel pretty positive.
Yeah, I feel okay.
I'm dressed in a blanket.
I always knew the day would come, but I've managed to sort of the blanket is somewhat articulated by the sort of by old Gunchester.
Gunchester stops it being just a pure blanket.
There's Gunchester at the hip holds it all together.
It is Star Wars.
Yeah, very Star Wars.
So I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to take that back.
Now, sir, I've taken umbrage with what you've just said.
Look at the American spaces.
Don't worry, I do it all the time.
We're okay.
We're cool.
It's all good.
It's all good.
Don't panic.
Don't panic.
It's all going to be okay.
We've got a fantastic show lined up.
Before we get into our fantastic new item, Crack On, where we talk about recovery, let us know in the comments and chat if you're struggling with addiction or attachment or loss, particularly chemical dependency.
That's where me, Joe, and Dave have the most experience.
You can join us and benefit.
Remember, of course, we are just interested in recovery and carrying the message of recovery in the best way possible.
And if you'd like to come and see me live, you can.
We have just put tickets on sale to see me where I live here in the Florida Panhandle at the magnificent old Florida Fish House.
You can come on the 16th, 17th of February or March the 1st and 2nd.
Click the link in the description.
Purchase your tickets to see my show called A Funny Thing Happened to Me on the Way to Church.
A funny thing happened on the way to church.
Funny thing happened on the way to church.
Brilliant show about coming to the Lord and about, well, actually, the powerful demonic forces that run our institutions.
These are the sort of things people are becoming aware of.
I've got a few stories to talk about before we get into recovery.
I want to just tag that beloved Shia LaBeouf, who I used to see around, good lad, good lad, has found the Lord, he's become as Catholic as possible.
Look at him there, he's right into it, and it's just lovely to see Shia LaBeouf saved.
Mayor's Dilemma00:15:41
What a beautiful story that is.
You like that, do you, Joe?
Yeah, it's good stuff.
He played Padre Pio'd me in a film recently, and that was when he converted, I believe.
Did you see the film?
I watched half of it.
What do you mean?
You're Catholic, you love God, you watch a film about Padre Pio, you love him taking drugs, you got bored.
I know the story.
Yeah, it's a good film.
I'll probably watch the other half tonight after this.
Brilliant.
All right.
I bet you don't.
I bet you get sidetracked.
I bet you get sidetracked.
I've seen a video of you watching it.
Yeah.
It didn't happen.
I'll do a watch along.
This is from Secretary Kennedy.
Excuse me.
Don't just rinse your fruits.
Soak them in baking soda for 12 to 15 minutes.
It breaks down and removes far more pesticide residues and waxes than plain water ever could, protecting your family from hidden chemicals.
Simple, cheap, and powerful.
I reposted it with a simple message, does it work on your testicles?
And my hope is that that will inspire an ongoing online conversation and hopefully more lives will be saved.
How many people must die before the change?
Now, look, I want to let you know, Liz, because you know me, I'm not a racist, and I don't believe in racism or any phobias against anyone doing...
It's weird when you become Christian.
It's pretty clear what's in the old good book when it comes to things like, well, firstly, become a follower of Jesus.
It's pretty clear on that subject, although the Old Testament, there's some people, there are some people to whom we regular Christians are Mormons, innit?
To the Jews, we're the Mormons.
The Jews.
To the Jews, we're the Mormons.
And to the Mormons, we're the Jews.
Yeah?
That's your next book.
That's my next book.
But like, what I will say is, I wonder if anyone has strong views about this.
I saw it.
La Pearson that posted this online is about the new mayor of Brighton, pretty near where you're from, Joe, has been sworn in and is Muslim.
Now, me personally, I don't dispute anyone's religious freedoms.
If you're a follower of Islam, of course, you should be a follower of Islam if that's your thing, or if you're an atheist, or any of the other made-up wrong religions.
Like, yeah, no, I think they're all should be followed.
But what sort of strikes me as interesting is in Britain, which is of course a secular but nominally Christian country, in particular, I draw attention to the fact that the authority of the monarch is meant to be derived from divine authority.
It's God that apparently, according to, I feel like they won't say constitutional law, because Britain has no constitution.
But to Britain's inner national mythos, the reason we have a royal family is because the royal family has been appointed by God.
So that's kind of, and it's a Christian God in that instance.
So it's by definition a monarchy, and the monarchy is Christian.
So it's somewhat a Christian country.
So what do you think about this?
Let's have a look.
Gentlemen.
Assalamu alaikum.
Before I come, I learned a little bit to Rwandan.
Also, by the way, who's the geezer in a bowler at?
And why is he standing here like that?
What's that mad Bradford and Bingley odd job get up all about?
It's extraordinary.
Now, I actually think that mayor looks like a nice person.
I think he's emanating a pretty warm vibe.
And I think public service should and could be done by anyone who's got good, solid values when it comes to community service, kindness, love, non-corruption, non-bias.
But it's interesting, the explicitness of the religiosity.
I.e. says As-salamu alaykum at the very top of it.
I think he said another sort of Muslim thing during it.
And again, I'm not saying that's wrong.
I'm just saying, is there equivalency to that?
Would someone say, well, of course there is you moron when parliament begins, you know, or every time you're in a court case, you swear on the Bible, which is odd because it's a secular country.
And when I swear on a Bible at my trial, I bet I'm the only person in the room who believes in God.
So don't you think it's interesting that something can be so explicitly religious in a country where its stated religion has been not suppressed but kind of submerged.
Amakuru Yanu.
It is my great pleasure as mayor of Brighton and Hope to warmly welcome Ambassador Bushinze to our wonderful city today.
As you come from Rwanda, I come from Bangladesh.
So we are equal now in the diverse city ambassador and mayor of Brighton from the diverse.
In this city, I'm the first South Asian councillor and first South Asian mayor.
We are fortunate to have...
I don't think there's anything, of course, wrong with having a South Asian mayor or representatives of a country's political system that were not born in that country.
But I suppose what we're doing is we're really testing the boundaries of what a nation is.
A nation is by definition a contained set of land laws represented by a flag, in some cases a constitution, usually by some shared ideology, a bunch of tax rules, some legislation, generally beneficial to elites that operate beyond those very borders.
So I certainly don't encourage working people from around the world to get locked in deadly tension with one another on the basis of race or religion.
That's the worst and most stupid thing we could possibly be doing.
But it does tell you something interesting about a country's sense of identity when our own religiosity, our own faith in God, our own faith in real meaning or purpose has been sublimated to such a degree and we are yet somehow celebrating external, extraneous, secondary, different faiths.
Joe, you're from around there, mate.
What do you reckon?
Yeah, I mean, it's not a like big Muslim area for sure.
So it seems like a strange move.
And like, I don't know, man.
I do think if you're going to be the mayor of a place, you should be from the country, really.
Should you not?
I mean, you understand the culture, you represent that place.
You should be from that place, I think, anyway.
I wonder if I could become like a mayor or something.
I love these people.
But I wonder if I could get into office here.
It's interesting, isn't it?
It's interesting.
There's a lot of talk in scripture about nations being under God, nations being secondary to God, and almost the indication that nations will be overwhelmed at some point by God.
And that's partly what I think we might be experiencing now, that people may start to identify with something.
In fact, we all do.
You know, I identify probably with my own family, I would say, more than my Englishness.
I'm more concerned about my dog than I'm concerned about, you know, bloody hell, to be honest, the potential of Britain being in a war with Russia.
Because in truth, the nation is an abstract concept, bolted on, bolted on.
So, you know, I think they should be careful with messing with the fragility of an abstract concept like nation, which for a long while in a country like ours, the UK, was utilized to get generation after generation to fling their lives before the foreign fire of, in general, German machine guns.
And only now is that nationhood being revoked in favor of a word he said twice there, diversity.
And it's likely that that word diversity is part of a mandate in the same way that, you know, safe and effective crops up in news reports around vaccines.
Dave, what do you think of a British political system that enshrines and celebrates the religiosity of, in this case, a Muslim mayor so overtly?
I think that's fine if it is natural.
It seems like a forced agenda to come in and push and like forcing a change in culture.
That's the part that, like, I mean, it's got a bad feeling to it that, hey, we're coming in here with an agenda, that it's not a natural thing built from the culture, that this mayor's coming up.
It's, oh, no, we're going to place him in there so that we can change the culture, and it's a forced, I don't know.
It feels like agenda behind it.
What I liked when I live here, I reckon you're right.
When I lived in East London, I was around a lot of Muslim folk and visited the East London mosque a couple of times.
I was really interested in Islam because Muslims were against the establishment power that I considered to be the most serious threat to individual freedom of all people, Muslim and non-Muslim at that time.
This was around the point of Iraq and Iraq too and Guantanamo Bay and people getting arrested and interned.
And I thought, yeah, the Muslims, man, they got a case.
They got a point in this lot.
And I thought it was pretty cool.
And I learned a lot.
What was his name?
I spoke to this guy that had been a British guy that had been held in Guantanamo Bay, illegally arrested.
And I learned a lot about the persecution of Muslims.
And I think it's a real thing.
But I also now believe, Dave, like you, that part of the domestic disruption that's been caused in countries like Germany, the United Kingdom, and to a lesser extent your country, the United States, it seems to be sort of different here, is as a result of migration programs that are deliberately disruptive.
And I became aware of it mostly when it started happening in Ireland, because in the country of Ireland, you can't make the same claims that, well, Britain went around the world colonizing an imperial force disrupting all of these nations.
If eventually that leads to those countries being so war-torn that there's a refugee crisis, Britain should pay the price.
And I was like, I can see that argument, I can see that argument.
And America, America is a global economy that exploits its relationships with secondary nations, and every nation is secondary to the United States.
And that causes, whether it's lithium mining across the world or whatever's going on with cobalt in the Congo or wherever, you know, America's power is causing disruption.
I can see why America and America is a nation built on migration.
But when it was Ireland, I thought, hang on a minute, those guys didn't do that.
They were colonized by the British, oppressed, that to fight for their national identity.
And they were saying the same stuff, they being the globalist media, about Ireland, you're racist, da-da-da-da-da.
And I thought, no, you can't play it.
It's a lie.
It's definitely a lie.
And then I saw a brilliant article by, now don't be childish, the Chinese artist, Iwee Wee.
I Wee Wee was a Chinese artist who'd lived in Germany for a time as a refugee, did I Wee Wee?
And I WeeWee, like when he left China as a refugee, I said, don't be childish.
I WeeWee left China and he said like, you know, because he was a refugee and an artist for freedom of speech issues and he's just gone back to China because his mum was dying.
He's been in, seeking refugee status in Germany, Berlin.
And he's like, Germany's worse now than China.
Like, China's social controls are more relaxed and it's a less messed up country than Germany.
I remember I WeeWee, don't be childish, because like I WeeWee contributed when I done the New Statesman was my first gambit into the political in the UK when I said there's no point voting.
I was the guest editor of a magazine called The New Statesman because my girlfriend at the time, Jemima Kahn, was sort of affiliated with it and she got me to do it.
And anyway, I got good people involved.
Shepherd Fairey done the cover.
David Lynch did a bit.
Alec Baldwin did a bit.
Lots of people did stuff for it.
And that's when I said there's no point voting.
The magazine itself, The Snides, did an article the very next week saying why Russell Brown's wrong.
Like they got another actor, this sort of actor at our peep show, Robert Webb, a show that we all, all the English people in this show, love, actually.
And it's so funny and brilliant.
They got him to say, Russell Brown's crazy and he's an idiot and read some fucking Orwell.
And I've actually read quite a lot of Orwell, all George Orwell, actually.
And it turns out George Orwell was against totalitarianism and did not feel super encouraged by the tendencies of social democracy and how they slide towards totalitarianism.
I now know.
But I weeweed, don't be childish.
He was one of the people that contributed and it was just really interesting because I was thinking about how much my life has changed since I started to publicly talk about politics.
First then, with saying not vote, then when I started talking about running for mayor of London in around 2014, 2015, then when during COVID I made all this YouTube content where I criticised Moderna, Pfizer, then going on from that attacking state interests.
It's just interesting how much my life has changed.
And I'm grateful for all of it because I've found the Lord and I recognize now that you can't attack state power really from anywhere other than truth.
If you don't have access to a profound truth, you're just going to be locked in a cultural conflict forever.
If it's just like, I think that, you know, people should be able to express themselves sexually however they want, in the end you'll get into some sort of drama.
If it's some sort of other tribal affiliation or identity, you'll get in trouble.
But if what you're saying is there is a God, God has told us how to live.
He's even given us instruction for how to handle people who don't believe in God at all or believe in other gods.
And here's your instruction manual.
Here's your telos.
Any other way than this is going to lead to trouble.
And I think that's the conversation we're in now.
And when I get, by God's grace, get acquitted in the eventual trial, this will again be my focus.
This will again be my focus.
And by then, our movement will have grown.
Our online independent media movement will have grown.
People will know that independent media means immediate mass communication.
And the technology that's so changed everything from the way your food is delivered or the way you watch movies will ultimately be implemented in politics, granting direct democracy and decentralized systems of governance.
And mayors will mean something.
And local councils will mean something.
And city-states and borough councils will again mean something.
And centralized authority will be attacked.
They're, of course, well ahead of that.
They know that's what's coming down the pipe.
That's why they want to control this technology.
That's why, like with cryptocurrencies, they first of all say, this cryptocurrency is evil.
No one should touch it.
Then they go, shit, while they're dealing with that, set up our own cryptocurrencies and get with it quick because this shit's going to take us down.
And that's what they did with the internet.
They'll go, right, what is everyone, what's everyone against?
Paedophiles.
Say everyone's a pedophile.
Right.
The internet.
It's all paedophiles.
It's all paedophiles.
Meanwhile, they're all fucking on Epstein Island nothing off kids and stuff in that weird blue and white temple.
Right.
And they're buying time.
Everyone's going, well, is that person a paedophile?
The paedophiles.
Are you sure you're just introducing all this regulation and centralized control to protect us from paedophiles?
I, for example, I'm an adult and therefore I'm pretty safe from paedophiles, just by definition.
Yeah, your average paedophile there's a brilliant brass eye once brilliant brass eye when he goes, I'm a paedophile.
True Gold Republic00:02:59
Is it okay for me to have sex with this 12 year old girl If I wait till she's 35?
And they do it to like a focus group and people are going, you disgust me.
Dear sir, I am a paedophile.
Please can I have sex with this three-year-old girl now that she's 21?
No way.
You should be in a mental asylum.
I'm unable to hear if I wait till she's 35.
They're unable to think straight.
It's amazing.
It's absolutely amazing.
Anyway, so my point is this, the world is changing.
The world is changing fast and we're very grateful that you are a part of it.
We can't make this content without the support of our partners.
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Thank you very much.
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Surely that Jeep's gone now.
I'm not driving around in it anymore.
Remember, you can come see me at the old Florida Fish House.
There's a link in the description.
Just in a couple of weeks, me doing my new show.
Come, join me there.
Finally, before we get into our new recovery podcast, Crack on with Joe, Russell and Dave.
David Bowie & Annie Lennox Rehearsal00:03:23
I just wanted to show you this thing because it's so, it's like it's not often that I see something that I think is just flat out beautiful.
It was some footage of on X of David Bowie and Annie Lennox rehearsing before they do live aid.
And amidst the treasures available there is like George Michael just singing, watching it, like George Michael watching and joining in.
And David Bowie's got a fag on, right, she's like smoking a snout while rehearsing it.
And Lennox is like effortless brilliance.
And it's like, well, this is a rehearsal.
You don't see art of this quality really anywhere ever.
And this is them just rehearsing.
Check this out.
Give ourselves one more chance.
Why can't we give love and one more chance?
Why can't we give love?
To take up the people to change our way of carrying up ourselves.
This is the last dance.
This is the last dance.
Don't even really get a round of applause out of the room.
Then what a days.
That's proper talent right there.
Remember, we can't make this content without the support of our partners.
Here's a quick message from one now before we go to our new recovery podcast, Crack On with Joe, Russell and Dave.
Don't go away.
Do you want to support me?
No, I don't.
Yes, you do.
Support me and support Rumble Premium.
You won't only be supporting me, you'll get additional access to Mug Club, that's Crowder's Gig, Tim Cast, that's Tim Paul's racket, and Glenn Greenwald's additional content.
Join us on Rumble Premium.
Supporting Free Speech00:03:04
We make content every single week through Rumble because Rumble supports free speech.
When I was under attack from the British government and the British media, Rumble stood firm.
Yes, of course, there's crazy people on Rumble.
There's crazy people everywhere.
There's a crazy person living under this hat.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the right to speak freely together.
By supporting Rumble Premium, you're supporting me and content creators like me.
You get additional content and what I will say even more, drink down deep on the delicious irony in this one.
You get an ad-free experience.
If you want an ad-free experience of Rumble, get Rumble Premium.
In the meantime, stay free.
Hello, and welcome back.
I guess we should do the disclaimer.
If you're watching us anywhere other than Rumble, click the link in the description.
Join us over on Rumble for our recovery podcast, Crack On with Joe, Russell and Dave.
And now, an important message.
This podcast is not allied with nor endorsed by any particular 12-step fellowship.
Although we may reference their literature, we do not represent these organizations.
The primary purpose of this podcast is to provide additional support to men and women who walk the path of recovery.
We share our personal experiences of the 12 steps in the hope that they can benefit others.
Take what is useful, disregard what isn't.
Apologies in advance for any offenses caused.
Any other problems, take it to your God and your sponsor.
Hello, and welcome to Crack On with Joe, Dave and Russell.
I'm going to put myself last because, you know, the humility, the incredible humility.
Dave, how long you been clean and sober now, mate?
Just got 25 years.
Well done.
Congratulations.
Well, yeah.
What drugs did you most like taking?
Heroin and alcohol.
Yeah, they're good ones.
Joe, what about you, mate?
How long have you been clean and sober?
Five years now, mate.
What drugs did you like best?
I like cocaine best and alcohol.
Really, really liked alcohol.
Yeah, you like that alcohol, huh?
It's nice.
What about me?
I'm 23 years, one day at a time, and I liked crack and heroin.
I realized the other day that it's heroin that I really like because of oblivion when I was thinking about Joseph Campbell saying that in the waking state, you're interacting with reality.
In the dream state, you're digesting with reality.
In the blissful sleep state, you're in oblivion.
And I think some people really like a heightened state, you know, like really want to be experiencing.
I think if you're really into, say, for example, sex, maybe, or, I don't know, partying or something like that, I get the idea that heightened states are very good.
But I've been trying to spot in the 23 years since I've been clean and sober what it is that I'm looking for and what it is that I want.
And even though this podcast is, of course, not affiliated with any 12-step program in particular, the famous Alcoholics Anonymous third step is about the idea of surrendering, handing over your life and your will to the care of God as you understood God.
Decision to Surrender Will00:15:51
This is how it's written in mostly.
Made a decision to turn our will, our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
Now, I've had people say to me before, what does that mean?
Turn your life and your will over to the care of God.
You might as well put it in the microwave.
What does that mean?
Turn your life and your will over to the care of God as you understand.
What does it mean to you, Dave?
Well, I think about the third step.
Like, I think first thing I think of, it's made a decision, right?
And so, you know, I have no idea how to turn my will my life over to the care of God, what that looks like.
I mean, does it look like someone standing up on a mountain with their arms open and they have some cathartic experience?
Not necessarily.
And so, because we've had those before.
I mean, you've had those.
Holy shit.
God, get me out of this one.
I swear I'll change.
I mean it this time for real.
And it didn't stick.
And I think it's this decision and that decision is really, it's a positional change.
For me, it's going, hey, you know, he's the principal, we're the agent.
He's the father, we're the child.
It's going, I'm taking the position that I'm no longer going to be the actor trying to run the show, that he's actually the director.
And I'm taking a demotion, so to speak.
So, all right, so in your own life, you're saying you're not in charge anymore of your own life.
Correct.
i'm responsible for my actions you know and to to do that but outcomes results um even even main decisions you know it's it's i'm i'm not the it gives a good example in uh the 60s there and in the big book where it talks about an actor trying to run the whole show So you have an actor that's trying to play the director.
You may relate with this.
I don't know.
You've been on movies.
No, and also I don't have any problems with self-centeredness.
So I'm all here.
Just explain what you mean.
The actor running around trying to arrange people in his own way.
If only things would stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great.
And then he gets more frustrated and inserts himself more into it.
And so our real problem is selfishness, self-centeredness.
That's really the root of what it talks about on 62.
It's my real problem is me.
And so I'm taking a demotion in step three and I'm saying it's a positional change where I'm saying, okay, there is a God.
It's not me.
And I'm going to make a decision.
But I really don't know how to do that.
And I really don't, I think when you do the prayer in the third step, I really don't think it ends until you hit the seventh step where it has the amen in the seventh step.
Because through the process of inventory and stuff, I get to see how I play God.
What's my pattern?
This is how I play God.
This is what I'm asking to turn over to him.
Yes.
So the reference that Dave just made to the big book is the colloquial term used in some 12-step fellowships, I understand, notably Alcoholics Anonymous with who this podcast has no affiliation.
And in Alcoholics Anonymous, the big book says, this is the actor analogy or allegory that Dave is referring to.
There are 12 steps obviously in a 12-step program.
The first one is surrendering your will, admission, really, admitting you're powerless, you're powerless over alcohol or drugs or whatever, and your life's become unmanageable.
The second one is come to believe that power greater than yourself could return you to sanity.
And the third one that we're talking about here, it seems, is made a decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of God as we understood God.
Before we get Joe's opinions and feelings on step three, here is the reading that Dave referred to.
The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success.
On that basis, we're almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good.
Most people try to live by self-propulsion.
Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show.
He's forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery, and the rest of the players in his own way.
If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great.
Everybody including himself would be pleased.
Life would be wonderful.
In trying to make these arrangements, our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous.
He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous, even modest and self-sacrificing.
On the other hand, he might be mean, egotistical, selfish, and dishonest.
But as with most humans, he is likely to have varied traits.
What usually happens?
The show doesn't come off very well.
He begins to think life doesn't treat him right.
He decides to exert himself more.
He becomes on the next occasion still more demanding or gracious as the case may be.
Still, the play doesn't suit him.
Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he's sure that other people are more to blame.
He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying.
What is his basic trouble?
Is he not really a self-seeker, even when trying to be kind?
Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if only he manages well?
That's one of my favorite lines in all 12-step literature, the idea that you can wrest satisfaction out of this world if only you manage well.
That somehow the material world has got something to offer you.
What often starts as a journey with getting off drugs and alcohol leads pretty early on to the recognition or at least the acknowledgement that what you've been trying to do is make the world make you happy?
And that idea is such an anathema to some people that, well, what else would make you happy if the whole system's built on get a job, get a car, get a family, get even things that are, as it brilliantly illustrates there, even if it's not something that's nefarious?
I mean, it's pretty obvious, someone like me wants to go around having a bunch of sex and being famous, you know, anyone will tell you that's a dumb way to make yourself happy eventually.
But what if it's like you want to have kids and be respected in your community?
It's still a kind of a form of resting satisfaction from this world, or as the Bible would have it, worship of false idols.
Joe, tell me what comes up for you when we're talking about step three, both what Dave there shared and the reading.
So like, I see that as the start of the program, really, because I mean, in the big book there, you've got four chapters previous to that.
And it doesn't even, it don't really mention steps.
It don't say anything about them.
Chapter five, just before that bit you read, it's got a bit, it says, this has made clear three pertinent ideas.
A, we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives, right?
B, no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
C, God could and would if he was sought.
So like, no one goes to a 12-step fellowship if they can stop on their own will.
Usually you've tried everything.
You've exhausted all avenues.
I wouldn't have stopped ever if I could have kept going when it was clear, like, I'm going to die or kill myself here.
I need something supernatural to iron this out.
So for me, it's acknowledging that.
Because what I say to a lot of people when I sponsor them in that is, look, there's a lot of empty seats in here.
And all of us know people that have died having not got to a 12-step fellowship, hung themselves, overdosed, crashed a car, however it happened, right?
So maybe just by getting a seat in there, you've been saved by the grace of God already, right?
You see the powerlessness.
Now it's like, oh, I acknowledge the fact I'm lucky to be here.
Thank you, God.
What do you want me to do?
What's the deal?
What did I do to deserve a seat in here?
And like, after that bit you read there, Russell, it says, like, before we took the step, like, we recognized we have a new employer being all-powerful who will provide what we need if we keep close to him and perform his work well.
And then established on such footing, we became less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs, and more and more interested in what we can do for others.
And I think that's the deal.
And it's like, okay, I acknowledge that.
I made the decision.
It says made the decision, not make a decision.
It's made the decision to turn.
So it suggests there is an ongoing process.
Having made the decision not to run on self-will, drink, use or kill myself, I'm going to turn towards the will of God through four and five, take inventory, six and seven, defect, and so on.
Do you know what I mean?
That's how I see it anyway.
Well, already we've arrived.
Thank you.
We've already arrived, though, at sort of what seems to be a critical and important point is how are we men who apply this beyond alcohol?
Like if we make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God with regard to alcohol, we all know that sort of boils down to don't drink anymore one day at a time.
But when we extrapolate that into, well, what is it that makes you drink really?
And to distill it, you could say, my self-will makes me drink.
And it's my self-will will cause problems for me in any number of ways.
How do we then apply this truth that we've discovered with regard to alcohol to all the other areas of our life?
Although I acknowledge that explicitly in the text there, I'm pointing to my phone, as if that provides any additional context.
It could be anything on a phone.
I'm going to go with Dave first, Joe.
Like, how do we make clear that how do we deal with the sort of peculiar tension that everyone, when they think about 12-step programs, surely think, well, if someone's going to narcotics anonymous, they're giving up narcotics.
If they're going to gamblers anonymous, they're giving up gambling.
If they're going to Alcoholics Anonymous, they're giving up booze.
So, Dave, how do you help me to understand this difference between handing over my will and my life to the care of God as I understand God, not drinking again?
And then how is that about self-will?
And how do you use it not only to not drink one day at a time, but I don't know, not getting arguments or not shout your kids or not living self-will.
Yeah.
It's pretty wild.
I mean, you think about someone coming in that doesn't have any background around AA or NA.
And then you read up to, I mean, you've read 70, 80 something pages up to then because you had the forwards.
And there's very little talked about alcohol in comparison.
And like, even, and especially going forward, it's, it's, you're like, I come to AA to stop drinking.
I'm killing myself from drinking.
But yet what you're talking about is a way of living.
Like the steps are really just, it's a way, it's a pattern of life.
It's a, it's a way of living.
And step three, I think a lot up to this point is just a lot of accepting and understanding.
Like for the first time when I went through the first three steps, I remember going, oh my gosh, like there's actually, it gave me words, a mental obsession, an allergic reaction, a physical allergy.
Like this is what I've been experiencing.
It diagnosed me, right?
And so like step one, a lot of people will say is done outside the rooms, right?
Step one is trying to stay sober, can't.
I mean, it's done for years and years and years, learning, okay, I'm hopeless.
Like this thing's got me beat.
I have a mind that tells me to drink when I don't want to against my will.
I drink against my will.
And then I have a body that once I take it in, has an allergic reaction that craves more, produces this craving.
And so if I just had one or the other, I could possibly control it, but I can't control and I for sure can't control and enjoy, like it says on page 30.
But when we hit step three, it's first like inflection points, like, okay, the first real kind of action that you take and you're going, okay, it's this decision.
And like you're saying, this way of like, like, what does that look like when you make this decision?
I don't know what it looks like.
And thank goodness the book is so simple that, I mean, right after you get done with step three, it says next we launch on a course of vigorous action.
It tells you exactly what to do because what it looks like is you're going to figure out what it looks like.
You just make this decision.
Okay, God, you're the employer.
I'm an employee.
You're the principal.
Like, I'm taking that position.
I'm going to trust you.
And then step four is where you really start to like understand, okay, this is how I play God.
I'm trying to meet my own needs.
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
All right.
So if you like, I can really get a handle very easily on step one.
I'm powerless over alcohol.
My life's become unmanageable because the only way you wouldn't be taking step one would be going, no, I'm not powerless.
I can stop whatever I want.
I like it.
I like that I just went to the toilet in my trousers.
Like a lot of people won't try to fight that position.
Then to fight the position on step two, you know, came to believe that power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
You've got to get someone to sit down and go, like a lot of people, sometimes I don't have step two in me.
Sometimes I don't think life can get better.
Sometimes I think, no, life is pain.
Life is suffering.
Life is a grind.
I deserve this.
I'm not a good person.
I've never been sane in the first place.
There's no such thing as sanity.
There's no such thing as, there's no God.
There's no perfect thing that I could be restored to.
So, you know, I can see the arguments one can make for step two.
But if you can get someone to go, do you think it's possible that things could be better?
You know, particularly, again, if you're just asking them with regard to drugs and alcohol, normally you can say, well, Dave used to be on smack the whole time.
Joe used to be all coked up the whole time.
Russell was on smack.
Rob's on meth.
Like, now we are not.
So that's better, isn't it?
That's better.
And then I can go, okay.
That's enough of an aperture for someone to enter with when the object remains substance dependency.
But what I think is interesting to be talking about this in front of, like, Jake, a sort of a well-practiced Christian, is that when it gets to step three, what you're sort of suddenly saying is, you know inside you, in Michael Singer's brilliant book, Untethered Soul, he sort of talks about the idea, you know there are hands, this is the metaphor he uses, there are hands inside you that are either pulling something towards you or pushing something away, right?
I want that bar of chocolate.
I want to have attractive woman attracted to me.
I don't want person to say I'm not giving you money.
Like you're, ah, ah, you're either repelled or attracted.
And he uses the hands metaphor.
Now what the sort of Christian idea and what the step three idea seems to be is you, the owner of these hands, the expressor of this will, you get the fuck out of it.
And that's like a kind of, what?
And like, you know, and if you're a Christian, you're saying, our Lord and Savior, you come in and you occupy this temporary tabernacle of my body.
Identifying With Joe00:15:16
You live here and run things for me.
But let's be honest, it's like, like, because I know you both well, I must say, Joe, I'm applying this a lot more to you.
Like, like, sort of when you talk about step three, I think, oh my God, he completely and totally understands it.
But like, you, like me, and I don't see this as much in you, Dave, actually, it's one of many reasons I admire you so much.
It's like, I identify with you, Joe, when it comes to your self.
I don't mean selfishness in a mean way, but your selfishness isn't quite right.
Selfishness, if you actually understand it, is it?
You're so yourself, man.
Like, you are so your fucking self.
Like, in some ways, it's actually amazing.
Like, I am.
I'm so myself that I don't care about my kids.
Like, I'm just too busy being Russell, so fuck off.
Like, that's sort of like how I'll get, you know.
But I know you understand it conceptually.
And I guess in both of the second two steps, there's the invitation and evocation of the mystery.
Something's going to come in here that's not of human power.
Like you said with the three pertinent ideas, God could and would if he was sought.
You know, that's on the metaphysical side of this, the spiritual side, shall we say, for simplicity's sake.
But then, as Dave alluded to, the next thing is vigorous course of action.
Like one of the great geniuses that I know in this program, Tim M, he says that step three means, you know, having made a decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of God, you know, what does that mean?
It means now do step four.
And I'm reminded that these steps are looked at cohesively as a unit.
And step four is fearless and thorough moral inventory, right?
What did you do?
What do you believe?
Who do you resent?
What are you afraid of?
Tell the truth about everything you've ever done or ever had happen sexually.
You know, like that's a, it's a process.
The steps are a process for inducing spiritual change.
And at some point in this podcast, I hope we get to talk about Carl Jung and Bill W's fascinating correspondence, which is one of the documents that makes me realize the true depth and ingenuity of the 12-step program.
But Joe, what were you thinking there, mate?
I saw you were ready to go when, you know, about an hour ago.
So I see it as like when you make that decision moving forward, having taken your inventory and the preceding steps, it kind of means to detach from your thinking, right?
Your problems, potential solutions and outcomes.
It's detachment and it's detachment.
That's the spiritual life.
And what I notice when I'm not on that path with God's will, it's going to come out in defects, like craving for food, sex, money.
And it'll become like, I feel like I have a lack, a lack of these things and I need the comfort that I think I'll get with them.
And then when I get them, it don't work neither.
It never works, does it?
It's the world of illusion.
I heard a brilliant thing in a 12-step meeting one time where this geezer said, an illusion is if you was to see a belt on the floor and think it was a snake.
A delusion is if you saw a belt in this floor and you just couldn't stop thinking it was a snake, no matter what, like even somehow it's a belt, there's belt holes in it.
It's a belt.
No, it's going to bite me.
It's the thing to try to change.
And I return to the delusion that I can wrest satisfaction out of this world.
And I think part of what's happening to me now to make it sort of, you know, to make it more personal is with Bear dying tomorrow.
So by the time people watch this, I suppose, Bear will be dead, is that it's such a kind of, it's hitting me so hard.
And this happening while obviously I live in the, for my own sort of trials, testing, growth, what do I want to call it?
Inuring, sanctification, the trials, the rape trials that will take place at some point this year.
With Bear dying, it's like, like everything since these trials has changed, right?
Like I've had to confront some complicated ideas.
The complicated idea that people are willing to say that about me.
You know, you know, everyone who's watches this show know that I think that there are some dark, weird reasons this is happening.
Let me know in the comments and chat what you think about that.
But I also know that being promiscuous does cause spiritual damage to the people you're promiscuous with.
And so I'm recognizing that damage is in part my responsibility while being entirely separate from coercing people to do things against their will.
So ever since I've been living in this kind of the quandary of knowing that I have atonement and that I want to be spiritually a good part.
I don't want to be hurting people, though there'd be people in the world that have been hurt by me, of course.
But yet, what do you do if someone or I wouldn't say someone, I would say if a story is created that makes it appealing to suggest that that was something different at the time.
Like I have to live in this really unusual thing.
And even small things that have happened in the meantime, like when like our kids were like doing, because all of our kids are friends here, like me and Dave and Jakes and stuff, like did a kind of a play, a play together.
Like we were like, Peggy auditioned for a part in it and she didn't get it right.
And like, I couldn't believe how like hurt I was by this very, very minor thing like in life where like, you know, like a kid's good, that's life, man.
Like little things like that.
And I started to recognize as with the dog's death, even though I love this dog very purely and very truthfully and very authentically because with a dog, you don't wear your mask.
A dog is a living contract between you and the family members.
For example, in a practical way, I would let the dog run wild and my wife would go, don't let the dog run wild.
So the dog becomes a living conversation about how we are different from one another.
The dog, when I went to sort of cry in despair when I was on my own with him, like I felt as the cry came gurgling up me, I felt might be an effort to modulate it.
Like I was like, oh, like I'll do it different if Jake was in the room.
I'd do it different if my kids were in the room.
I'd do it different if my wife was in the room.
I'd do it different if I knew it was being filmed.
Then like as it was coming, I realized no one's in the room except him.
So I just did it exactly as it was.
So he knows me exactly as I am because there's no point being anything else.
There's no point being anything else.
So you're losing, I'm losing, my family are losing, like this thing that's very authentic and very real.
And that in itself is enough.
But then additionally, he's the vehicle of family.
He's been with us all this time.
He's been witness all this time.
So what I feel like in an instance such as this one is that how does it, how it challenges my relationship with God, how it challenges my relationship with truth, how it shows me, yes, how it shows me you cannot wrest satisfaction out of anything in this world.
The most joyful things in your life will become tragic.
The most pleasurable things will become painful.
And the things that are joyful are a temporary window to the one true universal and eternal grace of God.
And things that are pleasurable are usually sort of biochemical prompts to get you to behave in a proper way, like eat food or procreate, that we try to whip away and sinfully use for our own self-idolatry.
As it says elsewhere in 12-step literature, for example, about sex, that sex is meant to be an accompaniment to a loving relationship, not an object in itself.
So I'm sort of struck by the almost limitless brevity and deep wisdom of the 12-step program.
How important do you think it is, Dave, that it begins with something clear and identifiable like alcohol?
And how strange do you consider it to be that something that's about something that you consider to be as specific as alcohol can be mapped onto and applied to literally anything?
I mean, if someone gave you a manual of how to look after a car and they went, it'll work just as well if you apply it to an apple tree, you'd go, that's fucking weird.
But this does work like that.
Why?
Well, there's a lot of questions you asked there first.
That's my style.
First thing I think of, one thing you mentioned when you say like, when it talks about he's a victim of the delusion he can rest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well.
I think that's really the emphasis there.
It's not that you're not going to have satisfaction and happiness out of this world.
In fact, like since we've gotten sober, and I can speak for all three of us, I've seen huge amount of satisfaction, like way more than I would have when I was drinking.
But it's not because I've managed it well.
It's not because I figured out, I figured out how to live life on my terms.
You know, it was because I gave up my terms.
I think with, if you don't have, your second question was, if you don't have alcohol or some pressing factor that comes in and forces it like it does for us, where we don't have another, like I don't have another option.
Like this is my Hail Mary.
And I'm just hoping it works because I look at Joe and I go, man, he was just like me.
He relates.
He thinks like me.
Like I get Joe.
But Joe is free and clear.
He's not sweating, trying to figure out how to keep himself busy because he's just obsessing about alcohol.
He looks free.
Man, if that can happen to him, I want it to happen to me.
I'll do whatever he did.
It's really more about, like, I mean, a lot of step three is really just going, okay, I'm going to make this decision.
and I'd say some of step two too is because I'm looking at someone else and I'm seeing the fruit that they have and I'm going, okay, maybe.
When you have it, I think of alcoholism as one of the greatest gifts that was ever given to me now, sober, because it's made me have a close relationship with God.
Like I don't have that liberty like someone that's quote unquote normal that isn't an alcoholic or doesn't have something really pressing.
A lot of people have their own addictions and sins.
What I found is as I've taken lots of different guys that aren't alcoholics through the steps, they get a ton out of it and they're like blown away by it.
But they don't have something pressing that keeps them doing 10, 11, and 12.
And so that's really, when you go through the steps one time, that's one thing.
But when you take step three, it's not saying that, hey, you're going to now be godly from here on out.
It's the opposite.
And that's not really the point.
When you're doing, the point's growth.
And so as you screw up and you're back in self and then you do a 10th step and then you, you know, do 11, go work with another alcoholic in 12, you're growing through that process.
And guys that aren't alcoholics, they don't stick with 10, 11, and 12 because they don't have something pressing that they have to.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Before I go to Rob, who's going to tell us what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now.
Joe, what are your thoughts, mate, on what we've discussed so far?
So what I was thinking there, as Dave touched on, step two, and like we came to believe in a power grade in our self could restore us to sanity.
I see that now in terms of like, I was insane.
I used to think I could drink and use drugs and manage all right.
Now I know I cannot.
For me, that is sanity.
Yeah, because in other areas of life, I'm still fucking mental half the time.
Do you know what I mean?
I do all right.
And that's why I have to ask God to direct my thinking on a daily basis.
And for me at the minute, in a practical sense, what does it mean?
Like step three and 11 is like turn up to work on time in a job I don't particularly like.
Do what is expected.
Don't let anyone there know that I don't really like it.
And I will be honest with you, I've fallen short in the last couple of days.
But that's the process of turning towards God's will, right?
And like, mate, I know when I'm falling off that sort of line because today it was, I just wanted to binge on food.
I wanted sugar.
I wanted chocolate and I wanted dopamine in my brain because I was drifting into self-pity.
And that comes through thinking about myself too much.
I don't like this.
I want things to be different.
I think things will be better, but they're not yet.
And they're not.
So I fucking need to just glitch me out for a little minute.
Nice.
100%.
I'd be interested to hear what Jake makes of all this, but why not wait until we've heard the wise words of our beloved friend Rob?
But before we get into Rob, have you tried Reborn Adaptogenic Mushroom Super Coffee with Ashwaganda and Lion's Mane?
Well, that's probably why you're so dapped.
Yeah, have you had some?
Well, have we even opened it?
Yeah.
I mean, it feels nice.
There's the instructions.
Cook it up.
It's like the good old days.
Cook it up on a spoon, add some water, directly inject it into it.
No, no, stir it into a cup of coffee.
It's coffee.
It's coffee.
We tried it on Rob.
We tried it on Rob.
He ate it dry.
Rob?
Great shot.
Pretty good.
We tried it on Rob.
Rob, thank you for joining us today.
And has Rob got a mic there, by the way?
Rob's mic.
You won't be able to hear him, but he's all recording.
What about Joe be out?
You'll hear him through this mic, but he is being recorded.
Hold on, I'm going to shut up.
One second.
I'll get Rob.
You get it.
That's directional.
Just leave it there.
They'll hear you enough to be able to tell you.
What it was like, what happened?
What it's like now?
Five minutes.
So it was a total shit show.
That's what it was like.
20-some years on meth and fueled with tequila.
Thought that was the only way to live.
I met Dave, what, about four years ago.
Came down here trying to get sober.
Thought I understood it.
Made a couple months.
Went back, tried to fix a relationship.
Relationship fell apart.
So I relapsed.
And then I kept yearning.
I felt that emptiness that I know that now only God can feel and being part of a program.
Finding New Ground00:12:12
So I kept looking, trying to figure it out.
I'd get a month or so sober and then I'd fall off, something would fall apart, job would fall apart, relationship, I'd be right back out.
And about 10, 11 months ago, I hit my rock bottom and I was spiritually, mentally, physically, emotionally done, like broken.
Picked up a pistol, was going to end my life, and my dog bumped the pistol out of my grip.
And that was my aha moment that I still have purpose here.
And so I reached back out to Dave and came down to Florida, started working on the program again, got about six and a half months completely sober.
And then I had a small slip.
And now I'm, what, a little over three and a half months sober.
It's been wild.
Like, when I let go and let God be God, things work a hell of a lot better.
What do you mean let go and let God?
Well, like the whole actor thing you were talking about in the big book.
Like I tried to live my life by a script that I created, but nobody else had the script.
I expected everybody else to know what the hell was on the script when I was the only one holding it.
And finally, when I let God be the director and I go by his script, things go a lot smoother.
It's a total shit show when I...
Does that mean, like, letting God be in charge?
Does that...
What does that mean in a particular moment of this?
Like, how do you practice that?
A lot of prayer.
So when something's happening and you're scared, what?
Like?
Pray, contact somebody in the program, a close friend, somebody at church, and just be open about it.
Because when you confine and don't talk about stuff that you're dealing with, that's when it leaves the door open for resentment or these horrible thoughts when my stinking thinking starts taking off.
Think everybody's out to get me.
And by calling another addict or another alcoholic, they can be like, hey, you're being an idiot thinking like that.
It's not that bad.
It's just temporary.
You go quick thinking.
Rob, you're doing really amazing, Rob.
You sound brilliant and you look beautiful.
Where on earth did you get those teeth?
Yeah, so I recently got teeth, which has been amazing after, gosh, 15 years with no teeth.
I had six teeth about nine years ago and had to have them removed, but I haven't had a full set of teeth in over 15 years.
And now, looking in the mirror, I don't see the addict me.
I see a new me, which has been amazing.
Dave, and some, I know you had helped, and several people from church have helped me to be able to get these teeth.
And it just makes me feel so much better looking in the mirror.
I bet it does.
I mean, you look a lot better, and it's a great testimony, but a lot of people are saying that the blowjobs have deteriorated in standards.
No one enjoys it.
They're very chompy.
They're too sharp.
Got to find a new corner, you know.
You're going to have to.
The whole client list is absolutely annihilated by that.
Russ, read that.
I was thinking about Rob when he said he was, you know, playing by a set of rules that only he understood the rules too.
And there's a scripture in Isaiah.
I think what all y'all have touched on a lot, this is the ultimate surrender.
Isaiah 45, verse 9.
Woe to those who quarrel with their maker, those who are nothing but pots herds among the pots herds on the ground, which I think means like clay pots.
Clay pots, yep.
Does the clay say to the potter, what are you making?
Does your work say the potter has no hands?
That's amazing to question whether or not God knows what God's doing.
Like, our maybe it's just, it's amazing they're sort of preceding and preempting the atheistic argument.
Is your argument that there is no God, that we're just arbitrarily and randomly here, that the laws of the universe, not to mention the inner experience of being human, love, loss, grief, glory, all of the nuanced, peculiar stave of human emotions has just happened arbitrarily, the kind of blind watchmaker argument.
And also, I suppose, Jake, what you're saying is that it's our job to recognize what he wants to use us for, and that that process, like it says in another of the objects or articles of faith of 12-step programs, is the 12 and 12, the 12 steps in the 12 traditions.
And somewhere early in step seven, which is the one that Dave referred to, we humbly ask God to remove our defects of character, which is from a sort of a materialistic perspective.
I mean, what on earth are you saying?
I mean, if you like, because there are obviously lots of people that use 12-step programs that are atheists, but I do wonder when it comes to something like humbly ask God to remove your defects of character, how you secularize that idea.
And anyway, well, in step seven, it says, the process of gaining a new perspective was unbelievably painful.
And like the process of being shaped, molded, changed, changed from a person that worships the world, worships your identity, worships the false gods and false idols, whether that's fame, money, success, hierarchies, whatever it is that the world has put before you, to pull yourself, well not to pull yourself away from that, to be pulled from that.
It's like unbelievably painful.
And I like a lot of the black humor that's in like 12-step literature.
There's another piece that says, the decision as to whether to live a spiritual life or to die an alcoholic death is not an easy one to make.
Shall I live a spiritual life?
Oh, well, I mean, you know, the only other alternative is an alcoholic death.
Yeah.
So tell me, what will that be like?
Well, I don't know.
Maybe it's like some sort of liver disease.
You're puking in your bed.
Maybe you're murdered because you've got involved in vice and criminal activity or whatever.
Okay.
All right.
So spiritual life, what am I going to have to do?
We're going to have to put God ahead of your own thoughts.
Oh man.
All right.
No, fuck it.
I'd rather die.
It's too odd.
It's too difficult.
It's such a why my own beyond even my gratitude at having my life turned around from being someone chemically dependent to someone who is drug-free and alcohol free one day at a time.
My fascination with the 12 steps is how it aligns perfectly with the principles of Christianity, how it's a kind of preparatory document.
I'm not saying that people that aren't Christian that are 12 steps haven't had the full benefit.
But what I'm astonished by is someone that's been exploring drug use, New Age ideas, meditation, as well as political ideas about corruption, hypocrisy, deception, institutional control, globalism.
To find all of that in the Bible, as well as everything I experienced with the 12-step, things that I've spent a long time studying and experiencing, not to find alignment.
That's what's amazing.
Like, you know, I would never have gotten something like that Isaiah verse before.
Like, I'd have just sort of thought that's do as you're told, is I'd have interpreted that.
I'd have interpreted that as do as you're told.
I wouldn't have seen that the clay is your consciousness, that you are made of something beyond even your flesh.
There is a spiritual component to you that's being affected and changed by some unseen hand that is only knowable in ways that are difficult to describe.
Yeah, and I think the other thought to consider is that the potter is good.
He's good.
So he's not shaping you into something hideous and ugly.
Like that's the trust part.
Like when you were talking about that unconditional love and how that's hard to grasp and understand in your life, that's because sometimes you don't see the Father as good.
His gifts are good.
What he's molding and shaping you into is going to be good.
Thanks.
So whenever you have an annihilation or this thought process of I want to just disappear from reality, drugs are probably a good God for that.
Very good.
They're the best for that.
You can't knock drugs when it comes to the pursuit of oblivion.
Drugs, everyone.
The answer.
And that concludes this week's episode.
No, thank you very much.
Yeah, thanks for them insights.
I reckon then we should maybe let me know in the comments and chat what particular questions related to recovery and 12-step recovery you would like to see us respond to and discuss.
If there's any parts of the literature of any all 12-step fellowships that you find particularly helpful or if there are any stories or challenges that you want to put before primarily me, Joe and Dave there.
Rob, thank you very much for contributing and for your story.
Well done.
Good luck with the new Nash's.
Good luck with the Raylings.
Good luck with the Grill as we say and good luck with your life as a drug and alcohol-free follower of God.
Dave, thanks for joining us.
Sure.
Thanks, beloved Joe, for your contributions.
You feeling all right?
Is there anything you want to say?
No, good mate.
Thanks Massey for being with us mate and being the sort of the silent ever-present voice of atheism and thank you Jake for producing the show.
Hey let's do the disclaimer again because I thought it was so beautiful when Jake played and Joe spoke.
When Joe spake and Jake played it was a beautiful thing.
Thanks for joining us for Krakon.
We will be back on Wednesday with a regular live show where we'll be talking about the infernal, terrible, never-ending horror and hell of the global news cycle.
Join us for stay free this Wednesday.
Meanwhile, please pay attention.
This podcast is not allied with nor endorsed by any particular 12-step fellowship.
Although we may reference their literature, we do not represent these organisations.
The primary purpose of this podcast is to provide additional support to men and women who walk the path of recovery.
We share our personal experiences of the 12 steps in the hope that others can benefit.
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