Ladies and gentlemen, Russell Brand and Russell Russell Brand trying to bring real journalism to the American people.
Hello there, you awakening wonders.
Thanks for joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Brand.
It's clear the world is changing fast.
You feel it.
I feel it.
People who knew nothing about Charlie Kirk are asking you, what was Charlie Kirk?
What was Charlie Kirk all about?
People in South Korea and North Korea, all of the different careers.
Is it really even a country?
Are asking who was Charlie Kirk and in some cases claiming I too am Charlie Kirk.
So today we're talking about the repercussions of his murder and how it relates to other cultural matters, notably and specifically the cancellation of Jimmy Kimmel.
Their inextricably linked Jimmy Kimmel show got cancelled because of that.
And whilst Charlie Kirk's murder, you could just say, you know, quite succinctly, that's a tragic murder of a person killed because of their views.
And what you could say that the Jimmy Kimmel cancellation is simply the cancellation of a television show that was likely to get cancelled soon because late night don't have the audience anymore and people are marketing in different ways and the culture is collapsing and imploding.
There's a significant conversation to be had that hasn't been had yet.
And that's the conversation around revival.
What is revival?
What does it mean for a rational modern person to accept the living Jesus Christ as a reality?
As if we're people in Nazareth thousands of years ago.
As if we predate the internet, modern communications, even the printing press, that we somehow require the Christ of millennia ago, the eternal Christ, the spirit that moved across the water.
Peculiarly, our culture of endless operations within now and constant conflict has led us to a through and via the precipice of bewilderment to the edge of eternity and perhaps to a kind of eternal awakening.
We're going to be looking at the last great revival in your country that was the prominent figure that most people identify with that is Billy Graham.
We're going to be looking at some of Billy Graham's interviews and footage and we'll be talking about how this peculiar set of events might lead curiously and with the mysterious power that only the Lord could ever wield to a revival.
I'm joined by the producer of the show, my mate Jake.
Hey.
All right.
And Dave.
What's up?
And over there in the United Kingdom, unable to speak or even smoke because the United Kingdom has become a kind of penitentiary is Joe McCann, one of the best young reporters in the game.
How's it going, Joe?
Good evening.
Yeah, it's going all right, mate.
Other than, you know, famous double-edged sword, isn't it?
Like I say, been recognized, mate, for my good works.
Not all good.
Have you?
The landlord.
So the landlord, tell me what are the consequences?
Because I've noticed you've not got a cigar.
You're drinking some sort of hibiscus and frankly a feat looking tea.
Yeah, I'm on the hibiscus tea tonight.
No cigar.
Why?
Verbal warning.
Written warning.
A written warning to come in the posts.
You've got a written warning.
What does it say?
Why do you get real war?
What?
You got a written warning from your landlord about what?
No cigars indoors.
It's fair.
That's fair.
I think that's a police state.
You're an American.
You should be accepting that.
I think you should be able to, you know, smoke a little cigar.
That feels a little classy, right?
I think so.
There are police going now to the UK, just arresting people for post online.
I've seen a few things.
Man, we covered yesterday.
Did you see it?
It was a very, very beautiful clip of In Thames Valley, mate, which is right up your neck of the woods.
Thames Valley Police went round not even to arrest a woman, but to really give her the opportunity to apologise for stuff she'd posted in the last couple of weeks.
I can't even tell what she'd done wrong.
But the police officer, mate, is so funny.
He's like, now, listen, I wanted to offer you the chance to apologise.
Like, he looks nervous of the woman's cat.
She's apparently sat there, bald as a coop from chemotherapy, getting haranged by Thames Valley Police.
They're not even intimidating police officers.
He's like, really, he's probably a really sweet and lovely person.
I'm not trying to criticise him.
But I'm not surprised you're banned from smoking because everything's getting banned in the UK now.
We've got two tracks going on.
We've got the track of the United States of America and its resurgent nationalism.
Where will that lead?
And the United Kingdom still in the frall of neoliberal bureaucracy.
Where's that going to lead?
Which one's more tyrannical?
Let me know in the comments and chat.
Thanks, Crowder and Mudd Club, for the raid.
Thanks, Tim Paul, for the raid.
If you're watching this anywhere other than Rumble, click the link in the description.
Get on over.
And if you don't have Rumble Premium yet, get Rumble Premium Now and support us as we have, in my view, the only conversation worth having.
Is there going to be a revival?
Are you going to participate in it?
If not, why not?
Let's get into it.
Now, Jake, you've put this show together.
What is it that you thought, why do you think that revival is the conversation we should be having today?
I think everybody's always trying to ask, when is the next revival?
And then if they're experiencing some of these moments, they're saying, is this revival?
There are also, there's a lot of people that go around saying, that's not revival.
There's like revival police.
Ah.
Yeah.
Not just in the UK.
Like in England.
Just yeah, revival police.
They're like, that's not authentic.
This isn't that.
That's not, so that is a whole thing.
If you try and do a revival in the UK, the police might come around your house and ask you to apologize.
Would you like to apologize for trying to revive?
Yeah, before this gets gone, we need to shut you down.
Because even just hearing you say that, we've not had that in our, like, in our country, they talk about like the Welsh revival.
And like, I understand there have been different points, like the John Wesley and them, like the Methodists, they like some, I've heard people that know a lot more about Christianity and the way that it has moved in the centuries since its inception, or at least since the death and resurrection of our Lord, saying, I've heard them say, oh, there have been times in the past where Christianity has nearly died out.
And isn't it weird if you think of like when I was like in my 20s and 30s, people, I mean, you lot for, they're from a different background, Joe, this lot over here.
No one was talking about Christ and Christianity.
Now you look at that massive, extraordinary Charlie Kirk Memorial and J.D. Vance is saying more people are talking about Jesus to me than ever before.
Tucker's up there talking about Jesus.
Everyone's talking about Jesus.
So something's going on.
And I felt like something was going on for a while.
And dear Joe's one of the beloved Baptists.
Joe and Bear Grylls are the two men that baptized me, as a matter of fact.
So like we got a different reference.
We don't like you lot of had revivals in the 60s and stuff like that, haven't you?
Yeah.
I mean, I even look at when we Billy Graham's kind of been around everywhere.
I mean, he was in the UK, friends with the queen, all kinds of stuff.
So that's an interesting correlation between a person like that back in the day and he was involved in culture, meeting with presidents, meeting with the queen.
And now we're sort of seeing like a new wave of connection between politics and Christianity.
And then intertwined in all that are all these real stories of actual life change happening.
Your story, Joe's story.
You guys just met some people and did some baptizing.
Oh, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
I've been baptizing people even over the weekend.
I like giving people a good baptizing when the weather's right, when the weather's fine, when it seems like the right thing to do.
What I know is that people will be saying that the real threat is theocracy, that people say that Margaret Atwood's handmade tale, and that's actually a pretty sacrilegious reference to the Holy Mother there, actually, isn't it?
Even in the title, say that people will use resurgent Christianity to create autocratic and centrally controlled tyrannies.
Whereas my personal fear has been these last 10, 20, 30 years or so that the culture, the state, via its propaganda machines within the culture has been operating as a kind of dark counterfeit God for a long, long time.
That's where the murder of Charlie Kirk and the cancellation of Jimmy Kimmel collide to tell the story of this most modern revival.
Let's have a look at Pastor Mark Driscoll describing what a revival is.
For those of you that might be uncertain, the reason I'm interested in a revival is because left and right are perhaps at the end of the line.
The ideas of the last century are broken.
The new technologies demand a new model.
Wouldn't it be extraordinary if it was something arcane?
Once Brett Weinstein said to me that the resurgent Christianity is a cultural attempt to reboot the last thing that worked.
But I would say eternity is reaching continually through time through the cross.
Let's have a look at what Mark Driscoll is saying.
Revival is a surprising touch of the Holy Spirit that accelerates kingdom ministry.
The Holy Spirit shows up in a unique and powerful way.
We see this throughout the Bible where the Holy Spirit falls on a group of people and just ignites them with a sense of passionate urgency for the things of God.
What our nation needs is a revival.
Now let me say this.
I'll say some controversial things.
This is the beginning.
I am for elections, but I'm telling you this.
If everyone is just hoping in elections, your hope is eventually going to disappoint you.
That at the end of the day, what we need is not just an election to go our way, but revival to come our way.
We need people to meet Jesus.
We need them to have a new nature.
We need them to be born again and excited about the things of God.
I'm all for elections.
I'm all for cultural change.
I'm all for fighting the good fight.
But at the end of the day, until people are filled with the spirit and have a love for God, things won't change until God changes the people.
That's what I'm saying.
And what we have seen in our nation's history is occasions of God's presence falling in a way that produces revival.
I'll give you a couple as an example.
And I am praying for revival.
I'll just be honest with you.
I'd encourage you, pray for revival.
If you look at everything, you're like, the world really looks dark and the future looks bleak.
Yes, unless God shows up as the X factor, and then things could be quite different.
We saw this in the days of Jonathan Edwards.
He began preaching at the age of 19.
He is, in my estimation, America's greatest Bible teacher and theologian.
The Great Awakening came to his church in 1734 in Northampton, Massachusetts.
Young people who had drifted away from the church, gone apostate, lukewarm, didn't care.
They heard his sermons and they were curious.
So they wanted to meet with him and ask him questions.
And Pastor Edwards did, in fact, meet with them.
And there began this revival called the Great Awakening.
One of his most famous sermons was Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.
And today we've reversed it.
It's God in the hands of angry sinners.
Rather than what we're saying so far, David, are you familiar with this pastor and this kind of discourse?
Well, Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon.
Yeah.
Have you read it?
It's incredible.
Sinners in the hands of an angry God.
I was listening to Father Mark Schmitz the other day, I think it was, and he said that, you know, it's God that's in the dark.
It's us that's putting God on trial.
Continually, the culture is asking, is God good?
What kind of God would do this?
What kind of God would approve this?
And as people sort of more and more move towards worshiping their own identity, you can see how it's becoming extreme or at least more novel.
But worship of the self and worship of the individuals is the culture's main device, I argue, for converting people out of God consciousness.
And like I've said before on this show, I realize that the role that I've played in that is a particular one.
Like you get cast into the culture.
I don't mean it's so nefarious as to require sort of shadowy participation of organized elite groups.
Like I recognize that my own fame, celebrity, and success, which at the time felt like the result of my own excellence and my own endeavor, was simply that I was able to be utilized in the culture as a representative of a certain set of values.
Like, oh, look, he's a sort of somewhat sanitized bad boy advocating for selfishness and promiscuity and godlessness in a peculiar way.
But do you know what's been mad since I become Christian?
How many people have said, I was praying for you.
I knew you'd find Jesus.
I've been praying for you for a long time.
People are always saying it to me.
Always saying that.
Yeah.
Everywhere.
Yeah, it worked in the end.
You were like, oh, you're that bad.
I thought I was doing well.
That people were praying.
I think it's interesting in a clip like this where he's talking about how revival starts with the younger generation, younger people.
Ultimately, that's where the fire, which the same thing was true when you were in the culture.
You were appealing to a younger crowd, everyone watching MTV.
So there's this always a battle between the people who can make an impact over the longest period of time.
So what's awesome about Turning Point, everything that Charlie Kirk was doing and what they are building.
I mean, we saw it, 5,000 students when we went to Tampa for that event, fired up, excited, talking about the things of God.
It's kind of an interesting dynamic.
But what I felt to the point of Mark Driscoll here is that Turning Point was, is, and presumably will remain, explicitly and overtly a Republican organization.
And Mark Driscoll here is saying that it don't matter who it's not saying it doesn't matter who win elections because these are the arguments people on the left make.
Like when I select, when I said, oh, there's no point voting for anyone because you get the same type of government anyway.
I remember people saying stuff like, yeah, but the Labor government are going to introduce this welfare bill for disabled people.
And are you going to tell to my brother who's disabled that it don't matter that he's going to get this thing?
And people that are Republican might say, well, you know, like we've taken a real stance on pro-life.
And are you saying that that don't matter?
Because that's the most important thing.
And, you know, even is that child sacrifice versus, you know, like people will happily, not happily, but willingly remain within the confines of the existing argument.
And what's happened to me lately, happened to me, really, Charlie Kirk's death makes it more vivid, but it was happening with some peculiar poetry anyway, because that morning when we were doing the show, I felt like, and I hope it's not sort of wrong to tell you this explicitly, we can't just keep talking like this.
We can't just keep talking about cracker barrel logo and we can't keep talking, arguing, even about something that's massive and significant, Israel-Palestine.
Can't just keep being in a washing machine of these opinions the whole time.
It's pointless.
And I've started to feel that we need to participate in this directly and explicitly.
I don't want to talk about anything other than the salvation of souls and a real and present Jesus Christ.
And to talk about it in a way that's not hokey, where I'm not governed by my own fear around money and finances and reputation and power and where we're not shilling and it's not exploitative.
And I know that an all-powerful God is going to direct us and use us and he's going to do what he wants.
But in a way, I'm working in what is clearly a liminal space.
Our situation is changing.
It's changing really quickly.
And I know that how like me to make it sort of selfish.
But as well, that's my way of, that's where I can measure it.
I can measure it where it's hitting me.
I can see it there.
And that's where, I guess, ultimately revival starts is with the individual, the actual change, the realization that I don't want to just keep playing these games anymore.
I don't want to keep going back to the systems that I thought were my hope.
I want to go to the source.
I want to go to God.
I want to genuinely be changed.
In the end, faith's going to be obedience.
That's what I keep, I keep coming to things that are quite hard.
Like in the end, faith will be obedience.
That if you are truly faithful, you'll be obedient.
You'll do what you're told.
But because my whole life has been defined by a kind of disobedience, because I don't trust authority, I don't trust that, like that comes natural to me.
It comes natural to me to go, you liars.
Like, I really, really feel that about like the media.
And like, that's, in a way, what I like most about Trump is this person that's willing and able to have these confrontations.
But what is being revealed and what Mark Driscoll's already pointed out is that a revival contained within political systems will be limited.
You're not going to get a real revival or real revolution.
You're just going to get maneuvering of one kind or another.
What's fascinating about this memorial of Charlie Kirk's is how overtly and explicitly Christian it is and how, of course, his explicit Christianity is now at the absolute forefront.
But that don't mean that people ain't going to try and exploit it and make it about what we used to call the Christian right.
The thing that Margaret Atwood is talking about in The Handmaid's Tail is, oh, they're going to say it's about Christianity and Jesus.
But what they're going to do is they're going to use that to legitimize control.
And that ain't nothing new.
People never more gleefully murder one another than when they believe they're doing it on behalf of their Holy Father, whether that's modern day Israel or the British and Americans when invading Iraq.
People get proper up for militant action when they say, we're not doing this because of some subjective resource argument.
We're doing this because it's God's will.
That's when people get crazy, no?
So we've got to watch for that.
Yeah, I think, I mean, that's going to happen.
The only thing you can put your trust in that is truly solid is God.
You know, if you are putting your trust in Republican, Democrat, whatever, any sort of people group, they are going to fail you.
Yeah.
Always.
Yeah, they are going to.
I'm watching like sort of like the what I'm interested in in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder is when we watch something like as seemingly innocuous and potentially banal as Mark Ruffalo, the very good actor on Rain Wilson's podcast, I can see in him a kind of, I recognize what he's feeling.
He's feeling a kind of a despair and confusion, but he's still someone like, say, Barack Obama or whatever, that's invested in the maintenance of the existing, basically commercial, codified materialist culture.
Like that's what the offering is of the neoliberal left.
We are ultimately about cow tearing to corporations and bureaucracies, but we're going to do it while pretending to be kind of nice to vulnerable people or whatever.
And we'll find some tokenistic way of demonstrating that.
And that's just breaking because it's not real.
It's not got anything real in the midst of it.
And that's all they know.
They don't even have another frame of reference to try something different.
So like that is their God, the culture.
And then if it's not the culture, it's political parties.
So for them, it's like Obama or whoever was their God at the time.
Yeah, he was a God.
Yeah, that's what they're going, oh, this isn't that.
And they're confused by all of it because it's all falling apart.
The other side will argue that Trump's a kind of God, won't they?
They'll say that to the right, Trump's a kind of God.
And the process that's unfolding here, even around Charlie Kirk, is about a sort of deification, a kind of canonization.
But again, when watching people's reaction to Kimmel and taking it like people being all passionate about it, Joe, right?
I just watch some people like going, it's disgusting that Jimmy Kimmel, this is your free speech.
Have you ever watched Jimmy Kimmel?
He's just chatting about normal, like top 10 things.
You're not talking about anything of any, it's not about meaningfulness.
And that's another thing.
Like whether you hated Charlie Kirk or loved him, he was a demonstration that the culture was moving closer to issues that are relevant.
Even if you absolutely reject Christ or you absolutely reject conservatism, now there's this entire movement talking about those issues.
Like when like just 20 years ago, it was like, Britney Spears has got that fucking snake around her neck and she snogged Madonna or like Usher's said a thing.
Like now, don't it already seem, like, who cares if Kanye West is saying the N-word or whatever?
Like, you know, don't, things are hastening.
Like, it's getting fast.
It's getting fast.
Like, the point that I made earlier or yesterday in the show was when you saw Kamala Harris using the conventional means of electioneering, going on Oprah Winfrey and getting a bunch of movie stars, whereas Trump went on Joe Rogan and people affiliated with him went on a bunch of podcasts.
Even though if you only looked at the superficial data, on one side it was middle-aged white men, Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, that's the tip of the spear of new media.
It's not the same game no more.
There's a new game.
And Charlie Kirk has been murdered, I think, in part because, you know, I'm not saying from a conspiratorial, more of a sort of a phenomenological perspective, because he is, he's the first person like that of note where something weird and radical has happened.
And that's without getting into, you know, who did it and for what reason.
That's what it's almost beyond that.
It's almost beyond that at this point is one of the things that we've been discussing.
Joe, mate, I wonder, like, when you went as you did for us to the British Patriot March there, and I've already spoken to people since then, they're like, isn't it a bit racist, all this thing, and it's only about migration?
Tell me a few things.
Like, tell me, do you think that it's different from any other social movement that you've been affected by or impacted?
Do you feel like there's something about it that's authentic and real and deep?
Or do you think it's just another exploitable thing that'll end up leading to a more nationalistic political leader getting in in England?
No, it's definitely more authentic.
I mean, it's interesting you say that about the Charlie Kirk stuff because there was a lot of people holding up signs and memorials to him and stuff like that.
And even a few people walking with crosses and stuff.
Like there's a real revival starting to happen.
It's like an awakening.
You can feel it.
And talking to people there, man, it was, you know, I spoke to a priest.
There was a priest there.
And he was saying we need to bring Christ back, bring him back into government, into schools.
We need to see a change, Christian values again.
And I think that's what's starting to happen.
You know, we need it.
Yeah.
And again, like just 20 years ago, it was ridiculous.
Like, I suppose, see, one of the metrics or devices we're using in my own interfacing with celebrity and fame and what we might call the culture.
And when I hosted the MTV VMA awards, which is a kind of Babylon pinnacle, certainly for me it was, like in 2000 and whatever, you know, 2005, six, seven, eight, around that time.
Like I'm the Jonas brothers were a big deal and people were super fixated on their virginity.
But it didn't seem like and the same with a lot of them Mickey Mouse Club stars.
They had the promise rings.
They had the promise ring.
They had the promise rings.
And a joke I made is they don't mean much unless they start wearing it on their dicks.
That's one of the jokes I made at the time.
And people have always been sort of fascinated with like the chastity.
Excuse me, I'll get myself cramped there.
Like with the chastity of Brittany, Spears, like and all of them.
Like why are they so interested in Miley Cyrus' virginity?
And why are they so interested in that?
And in our country, it was Charlotte Church.
People get into it.
Like even chastity gets sexualized and purved over a little bit.
It gets perved over.
They're not looking at it from a spiritual perspective, i.e.
the act of Creation is where we are most like gods, and a special sanctity is reserved for sexual behavior, and it requires guidance because it's a potent portal to an energy that can get misdirected.
The other thing that I said at them VMAs was, um, as well as them silly jokes about the chastity rings of those lads there, was about George W. Bush.
I got a bunch of death threats.
And what I can tell you is the things about it that were Christian.
I remember there were critiques of George W. Bush and Tony Blair at the time.
People were like asked whether or not they prayed together, like whether Blair and Bush prayed together about the bombing of Iraq.
That was one thing where Christianity was discussed.
And of course, when I was briefly studying religion and politics, I heard that in a way you could regard that as Christian violence.
That, you know, if you want to, you know, if you're going to, because the critique they were offering is if you're going to say that 9-11 is Muslim extremist violence, and we all know that there's a lot more complications to that story these days, that perhaps you could say it's Christian violence when a Christian in Vote Commons country goes and bombs the Middle East in order to get resources or whatever.
And that's a sort of an interesting argument.
But what I'm the point I'm trying to make is that it seems to me now that people are actually interested in a very Christ-centered version of Christianity, i.e., the living figure, the living resurrected figure, Jesus Christ, and how that has a kind of like we've talked about this before, a sort of a trippy impact on you.
Like when me and Jake and Dave were at the Bible Museum, the sort of feeling you get is a kind of like, like when looking at this ceramic mural floor recently uncovered in Israel from the second century AD, where the symbol of the fish is used, yet martyrs female are named, and in Greek it inscribed is Christ is God.
You get a kind of sense of, oh my God, Jesus is in the room.
It's like a weird psychedelic feeling.
And the reason I'm bringing that up and the reason I'm using the word psychedelic is I can't rationally justify an adult man in the modern world educated in the way that I've been educated, not to a high standard, but sort of within the terms of the culture and an autodidact that's read philosophy, suddenly accepting something.
And I've become aware of this because, you know, I'm Christian now, so I'm surrounded by Christians and it's normalized.
Christianity is normalized.
Sometimes it ain't vitalized enough, but it's normalized.
But when I'm talking to people in England, they're like, you know, like sometimes, I don't know if you guys ever get this, where you might feel a bit embarrassed, like, yeah, I'm a Christian.
I'm a Christian when you're talking to someone that's like, so what do you mean by what you actually believe that God came to earth and then he died for your sins?
I don't know how does that work?
And then he rose again.
And now, because of that, you're going to know eternal life.
You're sort of like, yeah.
Well, that's a fairy story, you idiot.
You know, that's what you feel like you're believing some, but it's because it's supernatural and it's outside our ability to appreciate reality.
And that's why when you study the word, you get the historical gut punch.
It's one of the things Wes Huff is good at.
It's like, oh, God, oh my God, here is like they're just talking about someone they knew.
Like Peter's talking about someone he knew.
John's talking about someone he knew.
Paul is talking about someone he encountered.
And then you feel like, oh my God, it's not that long ago.
Oh, it's not long ago.
Oh, it's now.
Like, it's a sort of a that's the aspect of it that people need to reach for.
Otherwise, they may reach for the sort of arsenal within it, the weapons within it, the motor, the ability to use it.
What will Charlie Kirk's legacy be used for?
Will it eventually come to mean vote JD Vance or will it mean surrender to Christ Jesus?
Never trust any human power.
It's all Babylon.
It's all Babylon.
How crazy is it that you are a Christian now?
Like if you thought about it back then, you ever imagined that you would be a believer?
When I was married to Katie Perry and her dad and mum are like sort of pastors, I remember just thinking it was like some sort of eccentric quirk of hers that she'd grown up in that environment.
And when I met Christians, I only liked the ones that could talk about it in a kind of mystical way.
But now I know that in itself is a sort of a pretty deep tradition and has well, it's obviously mystical and entirely mystical, but someone like Thomas Merton who would help me to understand it or Brother Lawrence like T or Augustine or Aquinas, like they helped me to understand the philosophy of it and the beingness of it, the ontology of it.
Like when I'm irritated and angry and frustrated about my day, like of how am I gonna, where is Jesus now?
How am I gonna move towards Christ now?
What does it mean?
How does it not become nihilistic?
It's ridiculous because I was an addict, Dave.
I'm an addict.
And it's very difficult to get past the layers of worship of addiction, like literal drugs and alcohol, chemical addictions, but then the more subtle forms of addiction, like sex and sleeping around.
And I feel so blessed now to be really well schooled in that, to be really, really well schooled in addiction and the consequences of addiction, the fallibility of addiction.
It was a long time ago.
Someone like I was making when I was, I think it might have been even before allegations and accusations, like I was just married and living there for a monogamous life.
And I was like, I won't say the name because it would be wrong and potentially liabilities.
But I was thinking about another famous person who like sleeps with lots and lots of women who's super famous but married and high profile married.
And I was like, how come he's allowed to do that?
And someone went, yeah, but that's like being jealous of someone that's still using drugs or someone that's still drinking.
That person's living in deception and illusion.
And there is a grief in letting go of worldliness.
There is a grief in letting go of carnality.
And I think all of us feel around the edges of our life the kind of pull of, well, I want money.
I want control.
I want power.
But the thing about what's happening right now at this moment with the death of Charlie Kirk and with what looks like the death froze of a culture in a way.
And I don't mean, you know, I mean like the Jimmy Kimmel stuff.
Like they were going to cancel that dude anyway because the viewers were in decline.
But that's, and I don't think it's a free speech issue.
I think they're making it a free speech issue so that it's got some juice in it.
I think both sides will get off on that.
There was no relevant free speech going on on late night TV.
They're saying, sit in your chair, vote for one of these two parties, preferably this one, buy these products, take that vaccine, shut your mouth.
Oh, no, don't shut that down.
Yeah, because even if the left gets cancelled or the right gets cancelled, like Roseanne, people are using the Roseanne example when she got cancelled.
Then who decides who gets cancelled when?
Who decides?
Because the left will say, well, that's justified.
They got cancelled.
The right will say, that's justified.
He got cancelled.
But even that, it's got to go further than that.
Who's even the judge to even decide?
Same thing with the morality police in the UK.
How do you have a morality police when you have no morality?
You have no God because you're saying he doesn't exist or he's not important.
How do we even decide?
We need to surrender.
We need to die to ourselves.
So the Charlie Kirk thing is a shat.
It's like glass shattering.
And I think there are, it's this, it's this facade that's being broken down.
And so I think in the midst of all that, there's going to be people that are going to try to use it for political power.
There's going to be people that are going to try to use it to gain more followers.
All of that's going to happen.
But I also hope, and I see it, in the midst of all that, there's still a lot of genuine things happening that God's stirring heart.
Yeah, because God is real.
So God's presence will use it, will sort of appear in it like iron filings around a magnet, which is the image of the cross I started to feel as I came to our Lord or as our Lord came to me.
And I suppose, Jake, what we're interested in is not the mobilization of ideas to win an argument as demonstrated when, oh, yeah, no, it's okay to, like people on the right saying, well, it's okay to cancel Jimmy Kimmel because actually Jimmy Kimmel was making a joke about that.
When you see it, it's pretty innocuous, really, and pretty sort of meaningless and trite.
How could it not be?
But instead, what you want to see is a sort of the glimpse of eternity because how can any, as you just said very clearly, where is authority derived from?
What is your basis for even making the claim that there's such a thing as right and wrong?
I watched the other day that film from ages ago, some, you know, The Martian.
And in the film The Martian, it's clearly a celebration of man's scientific endeavor.
Matt Damon's astronaut character gets left on Mars as something goes wrong on a mission.
And as a botanist, he's able to sustain himself for a couple of years until the ingenuity of his colleagues at NASA facilitates his rescue.
In one very notable scene, he pulls apart the crucifix of his departed colleague in order to create, he has to create an explosion for some sort of agricultural reason and to separate water and stuff like that.
Anyway, the film delights in the idea that it's in fact human endeavor that saves us and human ingenuity that saves us.
But even in a film that clearly prizes those ideas, the allegiance of the astronauts that return to rescue their colleague comes from what?
What is the allegiance?
Why do they want to rescue him?
Why is it right to rescue him?
What is right?
And even when atheists, and God knows there's some real clever atheists out there, say, I don't need a God in order to behave correctly, that isn't the argument.
The argument is you need a God in order to claim there's such a thing as correctly.
There is no correctly unless there's a God to tell you what correct is.
Otherwise, anyone else's argument is as good as yours.
I just happen to like being nice to puppies.
Well, I like strangling them and drinking their blood.
What's your, which one's good, which one's bad if there's no God?
How do we know?
And then the whole thing starts to seem ridiculous because what is beauty?
What is mathematics?
What is geometry?
What are these apparent patterns?
The patterns of the world that we're not meant to conform to, actually.
The divine and sublime patterns that are indicatively present as a result of the patterns of the world are the patterns that we ought to pursue according to our Lord and the interpretation of our Lord's words by St. Paul, certainly in Romans.
But you can't make no claim for anything until you first accept God.
And what's happening now, I think, is instead of the vaguely pagan ideas of God that the culture will afford you, and paganism will mean your identity is God, your sexuality is God, nature is God, the earth is God, your nation.
There's all sorts of false pantheonistic designations and destinations for your tendency to worship.
By the way, why do you have that?
Why are you made to worship?
Why do you need to worship something?
Why do you need to worship a football team or drugs or sex or something?
What is that?
So, yeah, this does seem like a different revival.
And I feel like we're somehow participate.
Well, we're in it somehow.
We're in it.
I don't know what to do.
Yeah, because we'll think that it's just us.
Like, we'll go, man, God's really moving and the three of us.
Then you start to realize it's not just the three of us or the four of us with Joe.
It's more.
It's happening on a bigger scale.
It's something that's larger beyond just our friend group.
And I think these events like the tragedy with Charlie Kirk sort of push things forward for what God wants to do.
And it might siphon through, you know, people trying to gain different political advantages.
And I think we can still, through that siphoning, get some really moving, powerful things of God to happen.
If you're watching us anywhere other than on Rumble, click the link in the description and join us over on Rumble right now.
We're talking about revival and we're talking about Christ.
In a way, though, if you're not Christian, don't worry because in Christianity, we love everyone.
Everyone is beloved.
That's how you'll know.
Like, even again, that's when talking about Christian nationalism.
That can never work as an idea.
It can never work.
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Now, back to the content.
Like, the term Christian nationalism is a sort of high, is a thing that people have always been kind of nervous about.
And it's the kind of language that I would have used once.
But the kind of Christianity I'm interested in is the kind that Erica Kirk demonstrates when forgiving her shooter.
Let's have a little look at that and let's talk about the concept of forgiveness and the standard that you can be held to once you declare you're a Christian.
Like if you say I'm a Christian, then I suppose people can go, well, what's this shit then?
And then obviously you've got ready as your raposte, sorry for swearing.
Obviously you've got for your raposte, I'm broken, I'm fallen or whatever, but you can't stay in your fallenness without, you have to repent.
That's the principle of repentance.
Let's first of all have a look at Erica Kirk.
We've watched it before, but I think it's obviously, bloody hell, it's pretty powerful.
My husband, Charlie.
He wanted to save young men just like the one who took his life.
It's a large crowd to try to control the timing of a clap.
So it's like the trickle in of a, like, oh, that's what she's saying.
Big bounce off the back of that last year.
Was it 100,000 in there?
That's a lot.
Yeah.
You know, she's going to have to.
In spite of not only she got to pass through her grief and the tragedy that she must be personally encountering, she's got to deploy the technical skills of knowing when the bounce of her voice is coming off the back of that auditorium to wait for an applause in a pretty tricky situation.
Yeah, that's a difficult situation to manage for sure.
That young man.
That young man.
On the cross, our Saviour said.
Father, forgive them, for they not know what they do.
That man.
That young man.
I forgive him.
I suppose the reason people will highlight quite rightly that moment is it's a demonstration of values that go beyond the values that our culture can offer us.
Our culture will offer us the death penalty.
Like that'll be one of the narratives.
Death penalties available in Utah.
He should get it.
But actually, you know, the message of sublime and supreme compassion.
I was thinking about John Paul II and that assassination attempt.
I think it was an Algerian lad shot him.
And like Pope John Paul forgave him, visited him, became good friends, lobbied for his release.
I mean, it's why that lights you up.
That lights you up to live to that standard because you're conforming not to the pattern of this world.
You're transcending the standard of this world.
And when you know that this world can't ever fulfill you, you've got no choice.
I mean, what choice has she got, dear Erica Kirk?
She's got to go through that.
You know, whenever people lose someone that they love, you have to, you've got to receive the lesson, haven't you?
You've got to receive whatever lesson is kind of knotted and woven and knitted into that.
Because otherwise, on its own terms, life becomes unlivable, unlivable.
And I suppose to be able to be grateful when your life collapses or when the unbearable or the unforgivable happens, that is presence of his supreme power.
One of the things I like about Brother Lawrence and his little collection of writings, the practice of the presence of God, is his unfussiness.
He says he lives as if him and God are the only people in the world and he's in constant dialogue with God.
And when he messes up, he says, I just say, says Brother Lawrence, this is as good as I can do without you.
This is as good as I can do without you.
I'm not that good.
I like the, you know, like, in it, like, we're in this, we're being invited to participate in all of these systems and all these hierarchies.
And I, gosh, it's difficult for me.
I find it very hard to accept just go and be a member of a church, go and just be a person.
But like, it's changing in me.
Like, that I want to be obedient.
I don't really, like, I want to be with my wife and kids.
I just want to be with my wife and kids, really.
And I want to, and the only place I can actually do that is from a perspective, from a position of connection to him and surrender to him.
Simple, humble Christianity.
Again, like part of the challenge of coming to Christ is, I think, for people that have been coached either on cynicism and skepticism or the worship of intelligence is that how can I just believe in the same thing as some old lady or like these people you see like Christians in like Africa somewhere, like that you think, I can't believe what they believe, these simple folk.
And actually, you can.
Now, one of the things that people like, you know, if we're trying to understand revival, the last significant, I suppose, well, I'm sure there have been other revivals, but Billy Graham's name still looms large in the imaginary, obviously Mount Rushmore of influential Christian teachers of the latter day.
And I'm very interested in what was unique about Billy Graham.
We know like a couple of his grandsons and like all of them, as you might imagine, are involved in ministry one way or another.
What is it that Billy Graham did so well?
What was so powerful?
Why was he so influential?
So influential, in fact, that Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II was impacted.
That's according to the Crown.
That's not my research.
That's the Crowns.
Let's have a look at Billy Graham.
First of all, here he is in Yankee Stadium.
This is in, I guess, the 1960s, I suppose, this revival.
Let's check it out.
This is Yankee Stadium, New York.
This is an historic hour.
You're attending by television the largest evangelistic gathering together in American history, the climactic meeting of the Billy Graham New York Crusade.
By nine this morning, the parking lots adjacent to this ballpark were filling up.
By mid-afternoon, they were overflowing.
Tonight, not a seat remains unoccupied in a stadium that can hold 80,000, and others line the infield and outfield to a point of saturation.
It beggars belief that one other individual can be crowded into these premises.
All of the gates of Yankee Stadium have been closed.
Thousands of others are milling about out on the extra perimeter of Yankee Stadium beyond the confines.
One of the things about our incessantly updating online lives these days is sometimes you'll just look at an image of a French train in 1970 or a British street in 1989 and everything already seems sepia-soaked and idyllic.
But what were they looking for the thousands of people in Yankee Stadium that day?
What was happening in America then?
Where was America in its own trajectory?
And how did that revivalist energy get directed back into self-sustaining systems of political power?
Because I feel like you told me, Jake, that Richard Nixon, then vice president, introduces Billy Graham.
So we're, you know, we're prior his president, prior to his presidency, prior to the murder of JFK, the Vietnam, the Vietnam War, and like, you know, sort of in a sense, what many people regard as the ending of American innocence.
So just prior to that, you know, our Lord gives you Billy Graham Yankee Stadium, Satan gives you Vietnam.
It's like the Chicago way.
They pull a knife, you pull a gun.
They send one of yours to the hospital, we send one of yours to the mall.
We are in spiritual warfare, and that's one of the things that I think is also prevalent.
People are sort of getting aware of, what, are demons real?
Demons and angels and entities.
Because when you're believing in Christianity, you're not just believing in a kind of a moral purview.
You're not just believing that God came to earth.
The creator of the simulation entered the simulation and paid the debt that you could never pay because debt has to get paid.
It's somehow like a kind of mathematics.
You're also believing in virgin births and demons and Nephilim and giants and beasts and creatures and holy warfare and the endgame and Armageddon.
There's quite a lot and it's very difficult to secularize.
Isn't it interesting?
In fact, the project of secularization is to impact and affect the canvas of reality to the point where even that conversation seems implausible and ridiculous.
And think about the kind of things that your Alex Jones is and your David Ickex, your kind of early forefathers of the internet, you might call them, the conspiracy theory generators, the early adapters, the people that sort of will come on your TV set in the mid-1980s and say, look, you know, Osama bin Laden's going to blow up the Twin Towers before 9-11, markedly and importantly, or reptilians are in control of your kids' minds or are controlling them.
It's pretty interesting that there's this potent supernatural dimension to it.
And it's pretty interesting that we've been trained to reject that.
Yeah, I mean, and this is crazy to see, to go back in time and watch this footage and to see that this was, you know, 100,000 people all coming to see Billy Graham to hear the gospel.
Richard Nixon's up there giving the introduction.
It's America.
But there's not a guarantee that just because a bunch of people gather and that, you know, Billy Graham speaks, that it's just going to lead to some utopian state of society.
There's a bigger picture at play that God's doing across the world and it's also timing matters.
So I wonder, like, we could watch all this stuff that's going on with Charlie Kirk, you know, from all these people gathering and some beautiful moments that are even happening, worship and people turning to God.
And we just have to make sure we don't try to control it and we don't try to monetize it somehow.
And we don't try to put our faith in even if a president is up there saying Christian things or if Richard Nixon's doing the introduction, Jesus has to be the main focus.
Yeah, that's the final killing of the individualistic spirit, which I think stands in for the Judaic law that Paul is talking about when he argues with Peter for removing the necessity for circumcision for new believers.
That now it's not Judaic law or Phariseeism that might contain or restrict a person, me, you, whoever, but individualism, materialism, your true devoutness to the culture.
Like that, where I get my personal, it's not even authority, it's simply testimony, is that I believe that I was so immersed in individualism, that addiction is an expression of individualism, that all you care about is how am I going to look after this individual little God in me, the self?
How am I going to stay in self in my sinful nature?
How am I going to live in that?
It's so curious too that the Lord invites us to come as little children to make ourselves innocent again and to open our hearts and to walk towards him with not gullibility or foolishness, but with the innocence of a child, which means kind of the casting off.
Can you see it when you sit next to a child somewhere?
You feel their radiant innocence, a young baby, their open-heartedness, their open eyes as they look at the world.
It's very difficult to do that, to identify with that kind of level of open dependency and its beautiful, fragile power.
But the state demands too that you become dependent, dependent on its ideas, sometimes dependent on it financially, dependent on its ideology, dependent on its information.
And in a way, the last apostles of the falling state, when you see Barack Obama saying, I don't know what we're going to do, and we used to have goodies on both sides.
George W. Bush was a good guy.
They're advocating for the state is God.
The state is God.
I think he even alluded to the idea, a popular contemporary idea, that your faith in God should be some private thing you do in a nook.
Get off in your little nook and worship your little personal, harmless God, like it's a Tamagotchi, and then get out here and spend your money with us and our real God, with Moloch.
Get out here and sacrifice what we want you to sacrifice.
If we want you to sacrifice your innocence, you sacrifice it.
If we want you to sacrifice your children, you'll sacrifice them.
If we want you to sacrifice your bodily autonomy through injections, you'll sacrifice it.
It's your lives to fight in some stupid, dumb ideological war, whether that's the wars of the last century or the dumb wars of this one.
They want your fealty.
They want your sacrifices.
They want your allegiance.
And they don't even have the good grace to tell you that it's a religion that they are selling you, even as they sell it.
Let's have a look at a bit more of this.
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Let's have a look at Billy Graham at Yankee Stadium.
More than 100,000 are here.
And now we have a very special guest this evening, and we're going to ask Mr. Billy Graham to come and introduce that guest for us.
I think the man that I'm going to introduce is probably one of the hardest working men in the United States.
He has certainly brought new luster to the office of vice president.
He has become America's.
Wow, Lord, choose him.
Is it the eyes?
He's got like nice glassy blue eyes.
Because he seems very talking like that's how people spoke back then.
Yeah.
Yeah, probably all those things.
He's probably like, oh, he's tall.
You like nice and tall.
Yeah.
He's a nice tall man for you.
He'll say, I'll do it.
I mean, that was all the time.
I think like Johnny Cash and everybody was sort of like, you have to be bold to really go for something in that time.
Now it's like people don't even want real jobs.
Everybody wants to go for something.
Like I'm an artist.
But back then, you got to work the farm.
So to go completely against culture, you got to be a little crazy.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
So like Billy Graham's in the mix of all those guys.
Like they're all like a few of them.
I'm like, oh, we'll play music.
Well, you're supposed to work the farm.
No, I'm not doing music now.
And that's what I keep going.
Like, everybody's a musician now.
Now you're like, no, like, go work the farm.
Go work the farm.
Like, go back and get a real job.
Grow us a potato.
But in that time, you had to have some real cojounes to go out and especially to do something like this.
I'm not working the farm.
I'm going to be in a glassy-eyed evangelist.
And I will break the record.
Set at the dust bowl.
He has become America's number one ambassador of goodwill.
It's been my privilege to follow in some of his footsteps in other parts of the world and found his power.
Isn't it amazing that if you worship the culture, you'll be baffled to learn that what he's about to say is, please welcome stage Richard Nixon.
Up until the modern era, he would have been the very epitome of a corrupt politician.
I am not a proc.
Like he was like sort of seen as the president that it's okay to not like because of Watergate and stuff.
But since then, the culture has become so demonically charged that you either really, really hate Obama or you really, really hate Trump or you really, really hate sort of everybody.
There's so much hatred.
Like this is such an innocent time.
But the culture will let you down.
The culture of Richard Nixon will let you down.
Well, people can be good at one point or, you know, go for the right goals and have great motives and then fail.
So like if you want, they will.
If they're doing it for any other reason other than God just used me, that's the whole, you know, this is the best I can do.
God just used me.
It's like even when you're listening to Richard Nixon, you don't have to watch the whole thing, but him just talking, it sounds like a great guy.
It's pretty genuine.
A lot of people say he was all right.
Yeah, like it sounds pretty good.
So that guy goes on to what he does, you know.
It's possible for any of us to do that.
Also, by the way, it's like, again, the whole thing, for good and for ill is the packaging of the culture.
Like Richard Nixon, one minute we need him to represent a vice president of virtue and then a president that's virtuous and part of the process of the grieving of JFK.
Oh, now we kind of need him to be absolutely vilified.
Now, I know events take place, but what the culture is so adept and so marvelous at is the exploitation of events.
It's like a big enough, loose enough network of nodes all converging on their agenda to like whether it's, oh, there's been, you know, some Houthis are doing some activity in the Suez Canal.
Venezuela have done this.
Oh, there's a missile's gone off in Poland.
Oh, a woman's been murdered on a train.
Cracker Barrel have changed their logo.
The machine goes, this is how we use that.
This is where we direct that energy.
And it will use anyone.
Like, don't you sometimes think as like much more deeply educated and practiced Christians than me that like the church gets like that's the sometimes you feel the presence of the evil one right there in them institutions and you would wouldn't you if you take the Bible literally in the places that you're supposed to then you would accept that the devil the evil one El Diablo Belzebub the necromancer the follower of the left band path he that walks backwards he's
in charge he's in charge of the earth he's directing events down here that's how he's able to offer Christ that authority that's why Paul's telling you you're not fighting flesh you're fighting against principalities Of dark spiritual power.
And like, that's what I feel now.
And you can't do that by that, that the dark principality of spiritual power is not the red side or the blue side, depending.
And one of the things that's really good about me, I would tell you, is I've not memorized of your two political parties which one's red and which one's blue.
So I actually don't know.
When people go, it's a blue state.
I have to go, all right, hold on.
What does that mean again?
The red one, because it's the opposite way to my one, I think.
Red is Trump and blue is Democrat.
Yeah, in my country, red is like the Labour Party, red blood, red flag, communism, all of that.
And the blue is the blue, blue blood, posh people.
We've got a whole different sort of system of analysis and evaluation over here.
Oh, yeah.
So what do you think about how the church and the message of Christ does get used to mess people up?
100%.
I think for sure.
I think church culture in America is probably one of the biggest tools for the devil.
I mean, it's a culture of look at me.
I'm okay.
Everything's good.
I don't have any problems.
I mean, they basically disqualify themselves from needing the Lord.
You know, it should be the opposite.
It should be more like an AA meeting when you're going in there going, and I'm screwed up.
I need help.
I need Jesus.
In a current state, not, it's, I don't know.
I think church culture, I don't think it's any specific church.
And I think I don't know if it'll, I don't know, when I've gone to church in other places, it seems a lot different than in America.
It seems a lot more genuine.
It seems a lot smaller.
It seems more communal.
I don't know if we're meant to have huge, massive businesses as churches.
Oh, man, that's really interesting.
But I see that as like when I've been, because I've been to a lot of 12-step meetings, and like 12-step meetings take on the inflections of the environment they're in.
Like I've been to ones that are in rural communities in Britain, and it's, of course, all sort of like farmers and stuff.
Or you go to one in Sydney and everyone's, well, I might.
Like, you know, like, there's what you'd expect there, a couple of gay folks, a couple of like sort of tough sort of Aussies, a surfer, you know.
And then I've been in New York and I've been in LA and I've been, and like it bears the inflection.
And I think the church and 12-step programs have the same challenge.
That if you're not careful, the evil one is such a crafty, he's a crafty devil, Satan, be able to bubb, he walks backwards, is that what will happen is that church or 12-step programs will default to do this so that you can go back and get money.
And that's one of the things I find sort of a bit odd about right now.
You know, like what happens is church will be an accompaniment to your normal life.
That's an accompaniment rather to your normal life.
If you go to church, you might be able to get a wife and get a job and all that.
If you go 12-step program, you might be able to get a job.
No, if you really believe in God, then you'll sort of be out of live like St. Paul or St. Francis.
Just go, all right, I'm just here for a while.
I'm here to make disciples and spread the message.
I don't care.
I don't, not, I don't care, but I'm not defined by what happens here.
And sometimes like people, like back in the UK, talk to me as if like my end point would be, oh, then I'll be able to get a film done.
I like, you know, it's sort of, but I bridle at it.
I bridle and I'm sickened.
I'm sickened by that in others when they think that I would want to try and get back into that world.
That's why I'm sort of glad to see that world collapsing because I'm like, well, there ain't going to be there to go back to.
There ain't going to be a Hollywood.
They're already in one.
Don't you remember in COVID when they did the Oscars and it was like from a dungeon?
Do you remember that?
I was like, yeah, good.
This actually is becoming what it's supposed to become.
It's like, hey, we're doing the Oscars from the cellar.
Let's keep pretending that not everyone's a paedophile.