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Sept. 1, 2025 - Stay Free - Russel Brand
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The Greatest Lie Ever Told? - SF625
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Zeitgeist: Religion Debated 00:07:47
Ladies and gentlemen, Russell Brown trying to bring real journalism to the American people.
Hello there, you awakening wonders.
Thanks for joining me for Stay Free with Russell Brown Watch Along.
If you're watching this anywhere other than Rumble, make your way over to Rumble because we're watching Zeitgeist, one of the classics of the genre.
We're going to be talking about religion, religiosity, and sacred cows, golden cows, fakes, and false idols.
With me is a Jewish gentleman, Isaac.
How's it going?
Shalom.
Shalom.
We've got a Christian over here.
It's beloved Jake.
Good to see everybody.
And online, we have Massey and Luke.
Massey is, I don't think, has a religion really, and Luke is as Christian as they come.
Now, have any of you seen Zeitgeist before?
Never.
I watched this early on.
I was an early adapter.
In fact, 90% of my content is derived from this video.
Let's have a look at this together.
And remember, if you don't have Rumble Premium yet, get Rumble Premium Now to get additional content, not just from me, but from Crowder and Tim Paul.
Thanks, guys, for the raid, as well as an ad-free experience.
Let's get into Zeitgeist right now.
Because I got to tell you the truth, folks.
I got to tell you the truth.
When it comes to bullshit, George Carlin can't go wrong.
What a great way to start.
Big time major league bullshit.
You have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
Think about it.
Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish when he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever till the end of time.
But he loves you.
Right, I've got a problem with this because I love George Carlin, but I actually think he's doing a lot of straw man stuff with one of the great parts of Exodus there.
Like, in a way, the thing is with Mosaic law is that you can't really dispute it and have human rights or civil rights.
Although George Carlin does do a brilliant bit about human rights that kind of acknowledges that paradox.
And also, I feel like even his use of hell and damnation is clumsy, comedically brilliant.
I've deliberately done things wrong.
Like when I did a whole bit of stand up about covert your oxen, like when I was before I was a believer, and the thing was, is I knew that you know it meant oxen in a general way, but I thought it was funny to think pretend that I believe it's just covet your oxen in a literal way.
Oh, that's a lovely, you know.
I did all sorts of camp silly stuff.
Anyway, but the truth is that you go, if you are not prioritizing God, i.e., the sublime principle, then you're kind of already in hell.
It's not like you're thrown into hell as a punishment because you didn't, although there is, you know, I know eschatology a little and damnation and stuff.
But anyway, look, I hope this video is not going to be hard because I'm actually quite tired.
I've got a little bit of a cold, and I don't want to spend the whole time arguing with heroes of American comedy over the one thing I disagree with him on.
He loves you, and he needs money!
He always institutions, that's the institutionalized church, whether it's your local church or like or the Vatican.
You know, these are human institutions.
The Christian, the first century Christians of Acts are really trying their best to deal with that.
And in fact, I do sometimes wonder when I'm reading Acts and it says, we kept all of our property in common.
And I'm like, okay, well, communionism.
There's some interesting values espoused in Acts.
It comes down to this idea.
I heard recently from Thomas Merton.
I read it.
He's dead.
He died in a sadly in a ridiculous way.
I think he died, like dropped a toaster in the bath, like levels of stupid comedy death.
Like, you know, like he was a really Buddhist and then a Catholic priest.
And he really describes things really well.
And then he died in a stupid way.
It's like, oh.
And what happened to Thomas Merton?
Oh, like, he got his dick trapped in an escalator and it dragged.
You know what I mean?
It's like sort of a kind of death that ruins a eulogy.
That's like, was that movie Lawless?
Where he doesn't die, Tom Hardy's character, he like never gets killed, and then he just slips and falls in a pond at the end of the movie, and he gets a cold, and that's how he dies.
In what movie?
Isn't it Lawless?
What's that movie called?
Isn't it Lawless?
So sudden, Jay.
Lawless.
Hold on a minute.
My pardon, I've got a point that I want to make.
Oh, yeah, look, let me make my original point, you mad racists.
It's this.
Thomas Merton said that sacrifice needn't include suffering.
Even though the ultimate image of sacrifice, the image of Christ on the cross, is undoubtedly an image of suffering.
What sacrifice means is that you're acknowledging there's a portal to another reality.
And that reality is the most potent and inverted commas more reality.
And in order to access that, to demonstrate that, you would be willing to sacrifice your son if God tells you that's what you should do.
You would be willing to sacrifice anything in order because you know and understand that that reality is supreme and absolute and the sensory realities are secondary.
So Thomas Merton argues suffering is not a necessary aspect of sacrifice, although it's usually a component precisely because we are so glommed on to material and sensory reality.
So some people think Thomas Merton was killed by the CIA.
Oh, well, I didn't know that.
And I also, but all I knew was he had a stupid death, like he tripped on a lizard and fell down a well.
He was in that.
He was in a hotel in Bangkok.
Not a good start to any death.
Right?
Comedy in itself.
An electric fan.
Contact with an electric fan while bathing in a hotel room in Bangkok.
There's a theory that the CIA was connected with Merton's death.
Yeah, that's a Bit Clinton, isn't it?
it clinton that he was installing a fan for the clintons when all of a sudden yeah well hey listen i know a thing or two about contacts with fans bringing about downfall because hey i've lived it baby Yeah?
Sexy?
Like it?
Yeah, I'm a comedian.
What can I tell you?
Let's get back to the shit.
Always needs money.
He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise.
Somehow just can't handle money.
Religion takes in billions of dollars.
They pay no taxes and they always need a little more.
Now, you talk about a good bullshit story.
shit.
Jews And Too Easy A Ride 00:03:02
This better not be criticising Jesus.
Yeah, it's going to do the Jews.
That's fine.
But Christians, no way.
We've been through enough.
The Jews have had too easy a ride.
Isaac, I hope you're listening to this.
Too easy a ride.
Listening to sorry, for too long.
Can't remember if they do Islam or not.
Better do Islam.
I want to see some Charlie Hebdo-style scribblings of Muhammad, peace be upon him.
Quite a long intro.
Dolgent intro after all that.
Whoa!
Where's the saxophone?
Come on!
This is the sun.
Where are we going?
As far back as 10,000 BC, history is abundant.
Oh, sun, and when they talk about the sunrise on the 21st, there's a constellation of stars.
Abundant, with carvings and writings reflecting people's respect and adoration for this object.
And it is simple to understand why, as every morning the sun would rise, bringing vision, warmth, and security, saving man from the cold, blind, predator-filled darkness of night.
Without it, the cultures understood the crops would not grow and life on the planet would not survive.
These realities made the sun the most adored object of all time.
Likewise, they were also very aware of the stars.
The tracking of the stars allowed them to recognize and anticipate events which occurred over long periods of time, such as eclipses and full moons.
They in turn catalogued celestial groups into what we know today as constellations.
This is the cross of the zodiac, one of the oldest conceptual images in human history.
It reflects the sun as it figuratively passes through the 12 major constellations over the course of a year.
It also reflects the 12 months of the year, the four seasons, and the solstices and equinoxes.
The term zodiac relates to the fact that constellations were anthropomorphized or personified as figures or animals.
In other words, the early civilizations did not just follow the sun and stars, they personified them with elaborate myths involving their movements and relationships.
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Likewise, the 12 constellations represented places of travel for God's Sun and were identified by names, usually representing elements of nature that happened during that period of time.
For example, Aquarius, the water bearer, who brings the spring rains.
This is Horace.
Testing Idolatry Against Scripture 00:15:56
He is the sun god of Egypt of around 3000 BC.
He is the sun, anthropomorphized, and his life is a series of allegorical myths involving the sun's movement.
Look, I'd like to get in the fact that he's a real alien and he's got a serpent on his head and a circle around it.
Like, I like this, and I remember when I watched this, this definitely went right in the mix of my understanding of agricultural gods.
And if you need plants to come, you need to sacrifice the god and put the god into the soil and you want the god to rise again, like you want the plants to rise again.
And agricultural societies usually have a death and resurrection god and the comparisons that can be made between Osiris and Christ and Dionysus and Christ and also perennialism, the theories and ideas of Aldous Huxley, that sort of myths are reiterated throughout the world and Jung's work within consciousness that suggests there are themes in folklores and in dreams that are so recurrent that they refer to certain archetypes.
But here is where I would refer you, not to Joseph Campbell, the great American storyteller who so deeply influenced George Lucas, but to Jake Smith, the worship leader and producer of this show, who said that the Christ is a storyteller who creates meaning and story.
And the reason these archetypal preludes and echoes are found throughout history, myth and storytelling is because there's an absolute truth in it.
Do you remember when you explained that to me the other day?
Yeah, it sounded just like how I told you.
That's how it was.
That's brilliant.
Pretty good.
Like that Christ is the story.
Now, like, it's weird, isn't it?
Because what's required, see, one of the people, like, say, Jordan Peterson, he's pretty clever, isn't he?
And when Jordan Peterson sort of was, like, I was talking to him once about the Old Testament and the New Testament and some of the sort of things like the, like, I think these are points that are made in the New Testament, like when Moses holds the serpent up on a stick in order to inoculate the Israelites from the toxins of them serpents.
This is echoed when Christ is held up on the cross to inoculate us from sin.
or the sacrifice of Isaac or the sort of unfulfilled sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham and the actual sacrifice in the same location as Christ.
I think what's challenging for people, and in fact it's a conversation I've ever seen quite recently, is people's rationalism is a barrier to faith.
And like this kind of stuff, it's really good and I like it.
I like this kind of sort of like, you know, can't you see how the zodiac and astronomical movements would inform people?
But there's a few things in here.
Seasons aren't uniform across the planet.
They vary.
Seasons aren't uniform across years.
Months aren't uniform.
That's a construct.
It doesn't exist anywhere.
The Gregorian calendars are sort of relatively recent advent.
The constellations are not uniform.
The constellations are not absolute.
They are subjective.
Not everyone agrees what these constellations are, where they begin, where they end, what they typify, what they represent, where they even are.
So there's a lot of things that are presumed in that little brilliant, lovely looking montage.
And where I got to is, see, it's like there's waves of it.
You needed George Carlin to sort of come along and go, institutional religion is bullshit and we're being lied to and we're being ripped off.
And he's saying this before we learn out, like learn how many paedophiles there are like lurking in them institutions.
But now there is a new orthodoxy.
The power of the church ain't the biggest threat to the world.
It's the power of global imperialism and corporatism and institutional bureaucracies that sort of are masked not behind great, well, they are masked behind great myths.
The myth of progressivism, the myth of technology and the myth of mankind's supremacy.
These are the myths now that I think pose the biggest threat.
And what is the actual message of Christ?
The message of Christ is, are you willing to sacrifice yourself for one another as I love each other as I have loved you?
And are you willing to enter into a life of faith?
Are you willing to turn away from worldliness, mental activity in the flesh and accept a new way of life?
It's not like get out there and hustle.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like it's a weird thing.
It's astonishing that that message has succeeded.
It's astonishing that that message is obfuscated by institutional churches.
It's going to be an interesting watch for me this because it's got a perspective that I agree with, you know, deconstructionism, general skepticism towards institutions.
But I disagree with its core claim that Christ is not the Son of God.
So it's going to be interesting.
Well, even when you see the pictures of the zodiac and you see the stars and all the things that lie, people will be like, I'll give my life for that.
That makes sense.
Like, isn't that a funny idea?
Like, my life, I live it watching the zodiac and reading the messages.
I'll give my life completely to that.
And that seems more rational than the idea that Christ is the Son of God.
Or give your life for your nation.
Give your life.
I'm willing to die for America.
Like, I have this conversation, because this is like a pretty patriotic part of your country.
The reason I wouldn't desecrate a flag or disparage America is out of respect for other people and out of respect for what those symbols mean to the people that revere them.
But from where I am, a country is a construct, whether it's North Korea, America, England, they're all constructs and those constructs benefit the elites that are at the top of the hierarchical structures.
But I recognise they're successful and I recognise that.
And I like the endeavor of this documentary.
The endeavor is you shouldn't just accept what you're told.
You should investigate it and look at the idea.
And it's also done a pretty good job of rendering, you know, like these.
When I first heard and read these things, I was like, this is cool, man.
I like this.
There's bits in it, like free kings, like, oh, man, of course, you know, there's like stuff like where the Magi and the virgin birth and all sorts of archetypes and moments appear to be, appear to have origins outside of myth or history, depending on how you approach that story.
But what, this is all right, like I had this today, man.
I was at a 12-step meeting.
Our understanding of reality is negligible, negligible, but because it's increasing, ostensibly because of our ability to observe reality through instruments, say, and the great endeavors of people in various scientific fields, we forget that we're making all of our value judgments within the paradigm of the known.
But the unknown is always going to be a much, much vaster to the magnitude of inconceivable field.
We don't really know anything.
In the end, you have to enter into a kind of contract of faith to survive in to sort of to survive ontologically.
You have to sort of go, well, I'm a body.
I've got this kind of hardware that I've got to live with.
But it's not going to be enough.
I'm continually looking to depend on something.
What is this appetite for dependency?
It can't, this, whilst this might be good on epistemology, i.e., how did we get into these knowledge sets, it won't be good on ontology, the nature of being.
Why would you want to believe a thing?
That's what I'd be interested in.
Movement in the sky.
From the ancient hieroglyphics in Egypt, we know much about the soul of Messiah.
For instance, Hora.
I want to know what your thought is on kind of how religion evolved throughout the ancient world in a sense, because Jews, we don't believe in like hell like traditionally, but during the Hellenistic period is when the idea of like Sheol and Gehenna kind of came in.
That obviously came from like Greek influence and like their underworld, right?
And I feel like from what I heard of like Christianity kind of spreading down even through like Egypt into like the Coptic Christianity kind of vibe, that I feel like the ideas that were there, like the underworld, Hades, things like that, kind of evolved into what would be like hell as a way to kind of denigrate.
Well, allow people who believed something else to kind of ascribe to their version of like, oh, well, you have your gods.
These are the Roman gods.
They're the same kinds of gods, but they just have a different name.
So they're actually the same God, right?
Yeah.
As a way to kind of bring people into the fold without kind of ruining their cultural understanding of what, you know, heaven or hell or whatever was at that time.
There was an understanding, like I heard that in when Christianity, although there are competing ideas of how this happened, when Christianity came to the UK, they grow yew trees outside of churches because that was a sort of a pagan symbol of death and rebirth.
So they sort of co-opt and reiterate existing symbols and that pan, there are aspects of pan in Christ, there are access of Dionysus in Christ, all these things.
But what my personal experience of Christianity has been testing my own previous New Age personal idolatry and pantheon against scripture.
And one of the times where I've like having only been reading the Bible for a year, the Bible in my new one year, when the Dalai Lama published that birthday message, and he made sort of a bunch of claims about Buddhism, I had immediate access to the same claims in Christianity.
And what I feel is, oh, wow, I just was dismissive of this scripture, ultimately because I've seen stuff like this when I was much younger.
And I didn't realize the sort of metaphysical potency and depth of scripture until I actually read it, which is sort of obviously ridiculous.
If you don't read it, you don't know what's in there.
And there's a kind of concussive awe that comes from reading the Bible, where I am forced to recognize that there is nothing that I'm coming up with that's original.
Indeed, that even that notion is in the Bible.
There's nothing original under the sun.
It's all contained within it.
And then things I do know a lot about, like sort of recovering 12 steps and sort of how alcoholism really is a way of focusing the tendency to worship on an object that can indeed alter your state.
And once you remove the alcohol, you're confronted with the consequences of your false idolatry.
I've seen how all of it has roots, correlatives, and deeper understanding available through scripture.
Like I've not ever, you know, look, there are things like I early on where I'm like, oh man, well, like I've got gay friends and stuff and it's pretty clear in here.
But like even that, I'm like, well, I'm not judging nobody.
Everyone can just crack on and do what they're doing.
For me, it's would my sex life be improved and my life in general if I'd have read this and behaved in accordance with it?
Yes.
Because it would have said, don't have sex outside of marriage.
If you do, you're going to fuck up bad.
And I did.
So sorry, Messi.
So would theirs be improved, gay people?
I don't know.
And it's just, I'm not gay and I just don't have a, like, it's not my gig, man.
But that's the, that's the thing which I have a major issue with with religion is like, my book says this and you're doing it the wrong way.
And then a bunch of other people say my book says this and you're doing it the wrong way.
And if we're honest about it, we think, hey, I love you.
You're amazing.
Christ loves you.
But you're going to hell because this is how you have an orgasm.
It just heavy.
I don't see it that way, but no, I mean, I think it is.
I think there's a part of it that's sometimes dealing with hypotheticals where it's like, what happens if I have a friend who believes this and they're going to hell?
When you have specifics, that automatically makes it more interesting.
So a lot of arguments are, you know, what ifs and what ifs are tough because in the actual, if it's a friend that you actually have and they want to have a genuine conversation about it, and it's not to prove who's right and it's not to make somebody feel like they're not on the right side of the truth or whatever the argument it is, but it's just a genuine, let's get down to the bottom of it.
I still feel like God is the only one who can judge and decide those things.
So like at the end of the day, I can read the Bible and I can say this is what I believe and this is what I feel like is the truth and I can rest easy at night.
The Bible is what brings the conviction to people to go, well, I want to do this with my lifestyle or you're saying I'm going to hell.
I'm not saying you're going to hell.
Yeah, I liked it when I saw, when I see Shapiro handle it one time, Shapiro was on a thing going, well, do I, as an Orthodox Jew, believe it?
Yes, as an Orthodox Jew, I believe that.
And it's kind of like submission.
I don't need to work all this shit out myself.
And I tell you, as a parent, with my six-year-old, with my, excuse me, my seven-year-old and eight-year-old daughters, like, and I'm thinking, oh man, like, you know, you've got older teenage kids, daughters.
I think the idea that like I'm able, like, dad, what are relationships?
I'm like, well, this is what we believe.
We believe you don't have sex outside the covenant of marriage.
I'm like, oh, that's, wow, what a relief.
What a relief.
You're going to wanna.
You're gonna wanna.
But we believe that we don't do that.
That's what we believe.
And here's some personal experience from old Pappy.
Serious challenges coming down the pipe if you try that shit.
Like, you know, because, you know, never mind, STDs, rumors, allegations, like, you know, there's so much stuff that can happen.
If I'd have like some rendered my version of how reality should be to what he says in there, I would have been better off.
Now, when it comes to the people that I love that are in same-sex relationships, I'm just like, I'm happy to put that on the long list of shit that I don't know.
You know, I don't know.
I don't know.
It's not my job to work that out.
Well, for me, like, it kind of goes back to that idea of that originally in Judaism, like the concept of hell and like damnation and punishment really wasn't there.
So the way I kind of see it is I think it's more of just a standpoint of if you have a same-sex relationship, you will not have children.
Like you cannot be fruitful and multiply, right?
So I think that's kind of where potentially it was trying to go originally, right?
Which is like, if you want to have children and family and whatever, you don't do same-sex relations, even though it was common at the time in Greek and Roman, you know, culture to do that stuff, but that didn't allow for the multiplication of the human race.
Yeah, that does seem like a good breeding strategy to, you know, to combine sperm and ovum.
But like also sort of morally and ethically, the idea that sexual pleasure is a supplement to the act of union and the act of creation rather than the end in itself is an interesting pivot for someone that's put sexual pleasure at quite a high priority in my own life.
If I'd have gone, it doesn't matter that that's pleasurable for you.
How is it making you, do you not consider that this may be having a harmful impact on these women that you're sleeping with and your future?
I mean, like, my God, what brilliant and helpful insight that would have been.
The Rational Mind's Inferno 00:07:58
And then you can apply, I can apply that to everything.
I shouldn't be objectifying Jake.
And because of my particular tendencies, I'm not going to sexually objectify Jake.
Most days.
But like, but like, I might just think of Jake as only having a value as to how he can serve me.
And when I start thinking like that, which I do sometimes, that ain't good.
That's a kind of hell, actually.
I'm trapped in an inferno of the flesh when I look at things as only existing for me.
But when I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to be helping people, it's better to be there.
And I think there's, I mean, there's consequences for actions.
Always.
Yeah.
And we understand that as people and we have a hard time thinking that a perfect God like we do it to people imperfectly.
We give consequences when people don't live up to our expectations.
There's, you know, when they harm us, when they do something wrong to us, when, you know, they manipulate us or whatever it is, we can take on the part of the judge, but we have a hard time allowing God, who actually is perfect, be the judge that he can be because he would know.
He actually knows what's right and wrong, not just what he thinks from a societal standpoint or from a preference, but he is God.
Yeah, that's like that Exodus scripture, like I am, I am, like that there's an assertion somehow, even when it's put into English, that there is something outside of time, some generator of life that doesn't require inception and is immune to demise.
This part of my brain that got turned on by Zeitgeist is still operating when I'm reading scripture.
When it says, Moses left the people and entered the thick, dark cloud that surrounds God, and that's just before he gets the Ten Commandments.
Like, I felt that.
I feel like if you want to approach God, you're going to have to leave the people and you're going to have to enter the thick, dark cloud.
Otherwise, you're not going to get the code.
You'll never receive the code unless you're willing to enter.
Now, I spoke to a biblical scholar, you were there, like, and he was saying, yeah, but the Old Testament is a very specific history of the Israelites and these sort of edicts are towards Israelites, but there's quite a lot of stuff in the New Testament that suggests that, you know, what that teleology becomes and that it becomes ancillary and that it does include the Gentiles.
In fact, that's sort of significant part of the ministry of the early apostles is the inclusion of the Gentiles as well as advocating for the conversion.
What do you call it?
Even the conversion of Jews.
Probably not in that context.
I don't know how you would describe it.
But what I feel is that there are the kind of, this is talking about archetypal truths that could be derived from movements of the planets and indeed the stars.
But we're talking about something that's beyond that.
We're talking about God.
We're talking about the sort of mad miracle, the peace that passeth understanding, the peace that occurs when your rational mind implodes.
If you've taken enough acid or enough iOS go, you realize the rational mind can take you to here.
And then there's a point where the rational mind glitches and sort of shuts down.
And then there's some other thing.
There's something else in here with you.
And it's God.
And what happens is, I think, that when I try to take on board the preposterous suggestion that God came to earth in the form of his own son and lived a perfect human life.
And then somehow through his unjust death, he's able to take on my sin and absolve my sin and yours.
And through his resurrection, guarantee us eternal life.
That's so outside of the purview of like, if I do this, I'll get that.
And it's so beyond it that I have to sort of, Russell has to sort of die a bit to even receive it.
And in a way, that's what faith is.
A kind of letting go, an unclenching of my grasp, but an understanding that I need to cling on to something, dependency, the idea of dependency.
And the only person that can take it, my wife can't take it, my kids can't take it, heroin can't take it, fame drugs, none of these things can take it, but Christ can take it.
When I go, I don't know what to do.
I'm going to die.
I'm frightened.
I'm terrified.
I'm weak.
I'm not good enough for my own life.
I'm a failure.
I take all that to him and he can handle it.
And nothing else can.
Nothing else does.
Nothing else has.
And it's weird because that's not a theological proposition or an academic or a rational proposition.
There's something underneath all this shit that I think of as being myself that I can't reconcile or absolve through my own will or power.
Beautiful.
Thanks, man.
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Horace, being the sun or the light, had an enemy known as Set.
And Set was the personification of the darkness or night.
And metaphorically speaking, every morning, Horace would win the battle against Set, while in the evening, Set would conquer Horace.
It's kind of weird as well that all of like the Israel's antagonistic relationship is with this culture prior to its emergence and then subsequently with, as our man says, Hellenism subsequently, that it's trapped between the sort of Gentile world and its culture worship in the form of the Hellenistic world and this weird paganism of Egypt.
That's what Israel comes out of Horus and send him into the underworld.
It is important to note that dark versus light or good versus evil is one of the most ubiquitous mythological dualities ever known and is still expressed on many levels to this day.
Broadly speaking, the story of Horace is as follows.
Horace was born on December 25th of the Virgin Isis Mary.
His birth was accompanied by a star in the east, and upon his birth, he was adored by three kings.
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At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher.
At the age of 30, he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry.
Horace had 12 disciples he traveled about with, performing miracles, such as healing the sick and walking on water.
Horace was known by many gestural names such as the truth, the light, God's anointed son, the good shepherd, the lamb of God, and many others.
After being betrayed by Typhon, Horace was crucified, buried for three days, and thus resurrected.
These attributes of Horace, whether original or not, seem to permeate many cultures of the world, for many other gods are found to have the same general mythological structure.
Christ in Culture 00:07:56
Addis of Phrygia, born of the Virgin Nana on December 25th, crucified, placed in a tomb, and after three days, was resurrected.
Krishna of India, born of the Virgin Devaki, with a star in the east signaling his coming.
He performed miracles with his disciples and upon his death, was resurrected.
I've thought quite a lot, not quite a lot, a bit, about how like sort of Christ may be reiterated through cultures.
Have you ever heard like, these are somewhat apocryphal, forgive the word, tales, like that someone told me, you know, you know, there are weird sub-myths like his two.
Joseph of Arimathea came to the UK.
Like people are always trying to tie their country to Jesus.
You know, like your country with Mormonism and stuff.
Then, you know, the Neophytes all showed up in America.
So we're the best, you know, like there's a lot of that kind of stuff.
But I do wonder more sort of profoundly, I mean profoundly in the literal sense, if Christ is present in all things, this, you know, like, because a lot of Christians will say that when Moses is hitting the rock and stuff, our Lord is present.
And like some of these angels that are turning up in Sodom and Gomorrah, oh, that's our Lord.
And like, you know, so I'm wondering how scripture tackles.
And indeed, Thomas Merton would be the very person to ask about this because he's studied Eastern mysticism and Buddhism and he would be interested in how these archetypes align with the Christ archetype as well as the historical, because it's like, in a way, the central claim of Christianity is God is realizing himself in man.
Like, so all of these God types, that's, would all come into it.
This is not a contradiction, it's affirmation.
Yeah, it's a it's a thread, you know, it's throughout history, this idea, and it's made flesh.
God became flesh in Christ.
That's what we believe.
Like, this is the moment where it really came to fruition, you know?
Yes, yes.
And so I do sometimes wonder, yeah, it's very interesting that because I've got a lot of friends that are part of Krishna consciousness.
I've got, you know, and when he talks about like the cross would cover Abraham, the cross would work backwards.
It's atemporal.
I'll think about my friend Sandy Pan and how he raises his family and how loving and how beautiful he is in the Krishna consciousness movement and think these people are in Christ.
Like, you know, they're in Christ.
And that for them would be sort of, I guess, a heresy because they are, Krishna is their supreme Godhead.
But in terms of what they're actually doing and how they're living, they're living devotional lives of love.
They're doing nothing outside of, you know, without getting into the nitty-gritty.
They're living in harmony.
Massey, when you hear stuff like this, what is that?
Like do you think everyone's crazy?
Like all these societies because there is no God or what do you feel like when you see these?
I don't think people are crazy.
I think this stuff's fascinating.
I mean, you could say, I can understand the argument that, okay, if there is one God and Jesus is his son, and maybe he's come again many times to many different people over thousands of years, that he would come in different forms and it would be similar.
But similarly, I go, yeah, but that's also just people interpreting the son, which makes the most sense to me.
I find that more beautiful than the idea of any God.
The thought of how humanity has created stories based on truths, the son brings good harvest, light, all that kind of stuff.
I think that is amazing.
So I don't think people are stupid.
The interesting thing I find is, you know, as an atheist, knowing that when it comes from, let's say that's the truth, right?
And let's say it's all true in a way because the son is a God, right?
Because without the son, there wouldn't be life on earth, just like there wouldn't be life on earth without water, et cetera.
But it's all true, right?
Let's say it's all true.
As an atheist, that doesn't make me live a better life.
Whereas as a Christian or everything apart from maybe one or two religions, it does make you live a better life.
You know, so that's why you say, oh, it sounds, I can say it.
I'm from there.
Even though you say, oh, this other religion, he's walking in Christ.
It's like, well, that's because you guys are all living a good life based on this belief, which I think comes from the son.
But I'm not therefore going, well, I need to live a good life because I need to respect the son.
Whereas you guys are.
Also, you guys have the truth there, but you also are using it in a way which really helps your life.
Even though I think that technically you're wrong, overall, I don't think you're wrong because it all comes from the son anyway.
I really like a bought into this theory because I just think there's far too many coincidences.
And, you know, my friend has a coin from England that he's found and it's got a Medusa head on it.
And it's from, he dates it back to like, I think it's like 45 BC.
It's like Caesar coming to England or something.
And, you know, a Medusa head and it was BC before Christ.
Obviously, it didn't say that on the coin, but that when you see that coin, it makes you realize, oh, Jesus was 2000 years ago.
But before that, there was all this other stuff and everyone believed it just as much.
That's the stuff that breaks it for me.
And I wish I could believe it because I, you know, done drugs as well.
And whenever you feel that, or that entheogenic thing, you're like, wow.
But for me, I go, wow, this is why people believed in God, you know.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I don't feel sorry for people at all.
I'm actually envious of people who have that belief, but I'm just too, I can't, it's just, I'm just too rational for my own good, I guess, when it comes to this stuff.
In the end, though, rationalism creates its own deities.
It ends up with the same principles because rationalism without borrowing from divinity ends in nihilism.
Because if there is no God, there is no purpose, just patterns within chaos, then there is no reason not to dedicate your whole life to pleasure at all costs because that's all there is.
and to derive ethics and, I like, I think it's another straw man argument to say, I don't need a God in order to behave morally.
That's not the argument.
You need a God to say there is such a thing as morality.
Without God, there's no women's rights, there's no ecology, there's no anything.
There is no difference between wandering out in the street with a knife, chopping someone's head off, fucking it, and then throwing it in the trash and, you know, giving $100 to Oxfam or the Red Cross.
It's just, it's the same.
There's no, there's no system of evaluation without a sublime and divine order.
That's just an argument for God.
Then the argument from Christ, you know, is obviously better made somewhat by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity.
where he takes that idea of our own embedded sense of morality, like that you know it ain't right to steal, you know it's not.
And if you do steal, you will justify it.
But in justifying it, you're acknowledging that there is a law.
Most laws, the laws of the universe, like the law of gravity, you don't have a choice whether or not to obey the law of gravity.
You are going to obey it, whether you like it or not.
But this other law of morality and ethics, as C.S. Lewis points out, there are some countries where a man might take five wives and some countries where a man will take one wife.
There are no countries where a man will be applauded for running away during battle.
That doesn't exist.
Wherever you go, if you run away in battle, you're a coward.
We know that.
How do we know that?
And indeed, these arguments, these archetypal arguments are suggesting a divine and sublime pattern as surely as a triangle, a fractal or a spiral or the molecular ballet that we discover when intrepidly devouring the subatomic world that suggests divine intelligence, order, telos, a plan.
Graduating Priorities 00:12:37
And it's interesting because when you, there is a kind of collapse.
I've experienced it in going, well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to put aside all of my understanding, not put aside, I'm going to gradiate the priorities of my order, my devotion to Christ and my understanding of Krishna, my understanding of Nietzsche or whoever.
And I'm going to say this is it.
And I've got to tell you, there is something mysterious about it, the way that it happened as well.
It didn't happen, although I know why people would suggest it did, because I was publicly accused of rape.
And you might think, well, this is a good way to get around that.
I love Jesus.
But actually, what happened simultaneously is like my son was, you know, we had a lot of challenges with little Herbie, God rest.
He's not God resty.
So I've got to celebrate his eternal, perpetual, devastating, beautiful two-year-old yesterday soul.
And yeah, he's two.
Like, when this stuff was simultaneously happening, it was like a shepherding.
It was a rod and a staff.
Like my life was kind of, what I thought my life was, was sort of collapsing inward.
And out of it came Christ in a way that's so sort of outside of logic, it might as well have been acid.
It might as well have been some sort of gentle hallucinogen of like surrender.
And it came together with sort of such concussive and beautiful ease.
The image I have is like iron filings coming together in the shape of the cross.
Like all these iron filings are everywhere.
It's going like that.
All you have to do is surrender.
And actually, the thing that I would have most rejected, like a man, a man who's sort of, you know, about my age, younger than me now, that I imagine looking somewhat like me and me bowing down and going, you are the king.
You are the Christ.
I am your servant.
And before you, I'm no better or worse than anybody in this room or anybody in the world.
And I accept it and I embrace it.
That's so at odds with how I've, what I've dedicated my whole life to.
Like, no, I'm important.
I'm in charge.
I have to be in charge.
What I want is what's important.
What I'm afraid of is what's important.
So weird that that happened.
And the other thing that's important about it, or felt important to me, is I suppose I feel like some kind of weird piece with it.
Like my mind's not shut down, though.
I've not got less, like, less sort of calculating or analytical or able to spot patterns.
But it's just sort of broken me.
I've been broken.
I understand it.
And it's amazing when you look back over your life.
People think it was just like that moment he went ahead and gave his life to Christ.
But it's been sort of woven throughout your whole life, all your spirituality, your thoughts, and all the things that have gotten you to this point.
Yeah, there you are, Jesus.
I knew it was you.
I knew that this wasn't just another story.
Oh, no, I'm going to have to get over the hurdle that I believe the same thing as my nan and like just people that are in churches and stupid people.
Like, oh, no, I believe what they believe.
Not any cleverer than them.
Or if I am, it's irrelevant.
It's like, oh, God.
Of course it's irrelevant.
Even from, also, by the way, Massey, the other thing that helps me is from a materialistic and sort of cosmological perspective, it's sort of the infinite.
I had this weird vision in sort of Costa Rica, and this is it.
It's because it's a vision that doesn't even properly make sense with language.
The protean superstate of potentiality.
All things are everything simultaneously.
As Jordan Peterson said, if everything is God, then anything is God.
You could elevate to the highest status, anything.
That's what paganism is.
The most powerful thing, sex will become God, for example.
Anyway, in this sort of potentiality, that's what they describe it as in quantum physics, a super state of potentiality.
Things are sort of in this state of flux before they collapse into absolute states of permanence.
There are, I believe, there are people that are not Christian that are super holy.
I've met some of them.
Amma is one of them.
Radhanath Swami is another one of them.
People that are, and you know, my beloved druidic friend Bruce, these people seem to be able to navigate that space.
And the image I have is of the bridge.
They can cross between realms like a bridge.
Me, I need the cross.
I need a proper tethering to the ground and to the sky.
And I need a horizontal relationship.
I need to die.
I need to die unto myself.
And when you read a genius like Paul describing this, that you're dying moment by moment to be reborn with him, it sort of preempts or at least iterates distinctly the principles that Eckhart Toll or any popular educator on Eastern mysticism or Buddhism or theology or not theology because they don't have a God, but doctrine would give you.
That it's about absolutely remaining in the present.
He is in the present.
The altar, the altar of the present moment, is where you might inside you now is that other voice.
No one has to tell me to return to my Russell voice of like, do this, don't do that, I'm bored, I'm hungry.
You shouldn't, they shouldn't have said that about you.
They can fuck off.
I want this.
You know, that voice is always there.
And to sort of transform that, to transform that as Christ, to have instead the second voice in my head, and hopefully one day the primary voice in my head, as Christ, is like, and I know what it's saying somehow.
Like, I don't have to program it.
I don't have to program it to say, be kind, let go of that, pause, don't overreact.
You should apologize for that.
Like, it's all there already.
It's off there.
We all know it's there.
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Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine.
He was referred to as the King of Kings, God's only begotten Son, the Alpha and Omega, and many others.
I suppose the virgin birth is a trope because you want it to come directly from God and you want it to be outside of the sort of material and biochemical covenant that can exist between any man and a woman and be transcendent of that.
That's what you want, a virgin birth now.
I mean, there was a long time I spent in the extraterrestrial Eric von Duneken rail world where I'm like, these are aliens.
Aliens came down and artificially inseminated people.
Virgin women.
I spent a lot of time down there, but it doesn't really give you a reliable set of ethics.
And upon his death, he was resurrected.
The Raelians.
There's like a Sumerian thing, right?
Where they had come down and like taken a more like monkey version of humans and stuff.
Advanced them.
Yeah, advanced them so that they could be like workers for them, right?
One of the I don't know this one.
I don't know this one.
I'm going to look it up.
But I mean, it's a pretty common trope.
The ones I hung out with were the Raelians.
My mate, Rael, as he once was known, Rael, he was French geezer, who'd been a sort of like a racing car driver.
He wrote a book called, and it was very good.
And I'd wish I could see the cover of it again now because it gave me such a buzz.
The message given to me by extraterrestrials.
They took me to their planet.
It was the full title of the book.
When he went up to that planet, Rael said, he met Jesus up there, and Elijah and Moses, as well as having it off with a whole lot of sex robots.
And I thought, you want your cake and eat it, mate.
Pick one.
Either you can hang out with Jesus and Elijah or Moses, or you can have it off with a bunch of sex robots.
You can't have both.
That's the rule.
Mithra of Persia, born of a virgin on December 25th.
From the Ionaki.
The Anunnaki, Sumerian alien kings, that extraterrestrial beings who created humans to serve them.
I mean, one thing we could all get into, surely, is the idea that, you know, the Junga Dryas event and sort of fallen civilizations and the Nephilim and are they giants and what the hell's going on and you know the pre-antediluvian events number 25th he had 12 disciples and performed miracles and upon his death was buried for three days and thus resurrected he was also referred to as the truth the light and many others interestingly the sacred day of worship of mithra was sunday The
fact of the matter is, there are was there even a Sunday then?
Hold on a minute.
When were the days of the week established?
Thursday, that's a Nordic god.
Friday, that's Freya Day.
That's Nordic.
Monday, that's monday.
Sunday, that's Sunday.
Wednesday, Odin's Day.
That's Nordic.
You didn't even have Sundays and Wednesdays till you had the Nordic gods.
So you better check your fucking fucks there.
There are numerous saviors from different periods from all over the world which subscribe to these general characteristics.
The question remains, why these attributes?
Why the virgin birth on December 25th?
Why dead for three days in the inevitable resurrection?
Why 12 disciples or followers?
To find out, let's examine the most recent of the solar messiahs.
Jesus Christ was born like that.
That was heresy.
I didn't like seeing our Lord referred to as the most recent of the solar messiahs.
Phil Carl's sticker album.
Phil Carl's did the drums.
Yeah.
I can see it coming.
That's heresy, Phil.
Born of the Virgin Mary on December 25th in Bethlehem.
His birth was announced by a star in the east, which three kings or magi followed to locate and adorn a new savior.
He was a child teacher at 12.
At the age of 30, he was baptized by John the Baptist and thus began his ministry.
Jesus had 12 disciples, which he traveled about with, performing miracles, such as healing the sick, walking on water, raising the dead.
He was also known as the King of Kings, the Son of God, the light of the world, the Alpha and Omega, the Lamb of God, and many, many others.
After being betrayed by his disciple Judas and sold for 30 pieces of silver, he was crucified, placed in the tomb, and after three days, was resurrected and ascended into heaven.
First of all, the birth sequence is completely astrological.
The star in the east is Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, which on December 24th aligns with the three brightest stars in Orion's belt.
These three bright stars in Orion's belt are called today what they were called in ancient times the three kings.
And the three kings and the brightest star, Sirius, all point to the place of the sunrise on December 25th.
This is why the three kings follow the star in the east in order to locate the sunrise, the birth of the sun.
Just in case.
The Virgin Mary is the constellation Virgo, also known as Virgo the Virgin.
Virgo in Latin means virgin.
Virgo was also referred to as the house of bread, and the representation of Virgo is a virgin holding a sheaf of wheat.
This house of bread and its symbol of wheat represents August and September, the time of harvest.
What does the Starbucks logo?
There's some Sirius.
There says, dear devil worshipers there over a Starbucks false idol.
In turn, Bethlehem, in fact, literally translates to house of bread.
Bethlehem is thus a reference to the constellation Virgo, a place in the sky, not on earth.
There is another very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th or the winter solstice.
From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder.
And from the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce.
The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients.
The Presence of Morals 00:08:37
It was the death of the sun.
And by December 22nd, the sun's demise was fully realized.
For the sun, having moved south continually for six months, makes it to its lowest point in the sky.
Here a curious thing occurs.
The sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for three days.
And during this three days...
I feel like it's all helping to prove Jesus was who he says he was.
Go on.
I just feel like it's all like, yeah, alright, nothing's disproven that.
It just feels like creation's points to it as well.
Right.
I agree.
It just feels like a total yak fest to me.
It's like a whole list of all these, you know, here's what all these gods are.
It's like, okay, well, at least everybody's on the same page of what it's pointing towards.
Yeah.
But that comes from the sun.
That's the point.
Does it?
The point.
Well, yeah.
I mean, we can see the sun.
You're right.
You know what I mean?
So it would make sense that it all comes from the sun.
You've got it the wrong.
I think you've got it the wrong way around.
You're going, see, therefore it's true.
And I'm like, yeah, I agree, therefore it's true.
But it makes way more sense.
And maybe that's the problem.
I totally understand what you guys are saying.
But it makes way more sense that this is all based on ancients worships, worship of the sun, I think.
Hey, I wonder though about utility and like sort of again, so this don't sound super theoretical, like your personal reality, how much is it, you know, you Massey or me, Russell or any of us really, how much is your personal reality determined by the celestial bodies and the movements of the sun,
as in, you know, like other than seasonal adjustment disorder, a relatively modern diagnosis, is not the same as the sort of movement of like the internal ecosystem of your humors, the machinations of the self, the sort of weird tides of the body.
There's like a meteorological system inside yourself.
And also, by the way, this is just observable reality.
And we all, like, even if we come to absolute conclusions about observable reality, we then have to immediately fold in that 98% of the known, known universe is dark matter and dark energy.
That's just the known universe.
So everything we're, the information we have access to is negligible.
Anything that can sort of somehow bring together the patterns within the observable while giving us illusions and instructions when it comes to the unknowable, whether that's eschatology, what may occur after death, as well as how to navigate human life and the life of our emotions and our spirit is powerful and useful.
I would say more useful than being able to go, oh, you know, like, I mean, it's good to go sort of, oh, Dionysius, virgin, but these sort of tropes, themes, archetypes, they are interesting.
But as Jake says, you can sort of see that as the presence of a holy creator.
And even if you went like, well, I'm going to believe in, say, Osiris or something instead of Jesus, or I'm going to believe in one of them other ones.
Like, you're sort of, now you're one sort of station further down the road of like, oh, there's a divine creator, there's an intelligent creator.
And in a sense, I think that the presence of God is unavoidable throughout inner lives.
The seemingly unignorable presence of morals and ethics in each of us.
And I would add to that, this sort of kind of vehement propaganda campaign to dismantle those ethics, like whether it's Yuvalno, Harari, or whoever sort of telling you, or Dawkins, you know, like, no, no, what it is is it's, what do they call it, biological, like sort of like evolutionary, sort of like this is in order to create relationships, kindness developed as a strategy and tactic.
It's like a devotion to the idea that you're selfish and you're bad.
And even that idea, by the way, is baked into the Bible, fallenness, the original sin.
Like it's people work very, very hard to deny the existence of God.
And I think there must be a reason for that.
And what like I've personally encountered here in this book and in my time of prayer is somehow the encapsulation of all of these principles in one man God being, where before it was diffuse and I remained at the center of it.
Like at the center of this sort of Hellenistic and astronomical appraisal of reality is me, the observer.
With the acceptance of Christ at the middle of it is him.
And I now relate to him.
And in that, some sort of osmosis takes place, some transformation, some necessary transformation that's akin to being reborn, that's akin to me entering the soil and rising again, me entering the water and being washed clean and rising again.
The thing is, I think, is that you can't rationally do it.
If the works of C.S. Lewis and sort of Tolkien and N.T. Wright are sort of insufficient, you know, then nothing I can say on the internet is going to work.
But the experience, the encounter is what did it.
Like, literally, I've seen this before.
So, you know, I've seen this documentary.
I've seen it.
I've considered it.
And sometime later, I forgot it, you know, and like it didn't help.
But it's not just about utility either.
This, I think, is about a kind of utility that sort of advocates for and benefits rationalism.
And rationalism, I think we're beginning to understand where rationalism leads.
It's to a kind of, without God, you can rationalize anything.
Without God, you can rise.
Massey, you say like the sun, like S-U-N is the important part of it.
But then it's like, who gave it the order?
Who tells it to rise?
Who put those rules into place?
Like, who lined those stars up?
Like, you know what I mean?
Who put those rules in the place?
If there's no God, why would there be anything?
Why would it be any of this?
Why dirt?
Why food?
Why the sun rising?
Why do the seasons change?
Right.
Don't disembark.
Why would you get off the train of meaning at that station?
Right, that's it.
There's the sun.
Why is there a sun?
Why does the sun nourish?
Why is there photosynthesis?
Why is their botany?
Why is their life?
Why is their meaning?
Why is there time?
Well, it is rational.
Well, you're using your rationality now, right?
Yeah, like if people say I'm being rational, they're probably not being rational enough because you've got to keep going.
Like keep going.
Right, exhaust it.
Exhausted.
It's the same way when we talk about the law.
It's like you go, I'm following this law.
You're not following the law enough.
Because if you follow the law enough, you're going to realize I can't do it and I need a savior.
I mean, that's the idea.
It's like we never go far enough.
We stop at a certain point.
That was a big bang.
That just happened.
I don't know.
Yeah, one free miracle and we'll describe the rest as it were.
Except also not included is why beauty, why love, why this peculiar poetry, why the geometry, why the consistency of meaning.
None of these things can be countenanced through rationalism without a divine principle upon which to hang the reason.
As our man, Sophocles says, reason is God's crowning gift to man.
Reason without God becomes nihilism.
You reason your way to a kind of a sort of a psychopathy.
But with God, reason becomes an acknowledgement of our singular, peculiar irrelevance when it comes to material, but our ultimate significance in the eyes of the creator.
And I understand this tension because as far as I know, I am infinitesimally small, so small as to be irrelevant, and yet all reality, as far as I can prove, takes place in my consciousness.
And that's a sort of extraordinary tension for anybody to carry.
And we all carry it.
It's another crucifix there, another collision of the vertical and the horizontal.
And in order for that frequency to be kind of livable, I need a savior.
I can't do it.
The resources aren't somehow within me, but they are accessible to me.
Yeah, I don't understand it.
It's the peace that passeth all understanding, not the peace that's included within understanding.
We're done 16 minutes.
We can go home.
Remember, Join Us Next 00:00:25
Oh, it's so good.
But, you know, obviously, we didn't do much of the documentary.
Thank you, Luke.
You did well.
I watched your lovely Christian face.
Massey, you're going to hell.
Isaac.
No, you're all good.
You're all good.
I don't think that that's how it works at all.
I think it's a good conversation.
That's all the time we have this week.
Remember, you can join us at these times, not for more of the same, but for more of the different.
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