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July 22, 2025 - Stay Free - Russel Brand
59:39
Dr. Oz and the War for Your Health - SF618
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Ladies and gentlemen, Russell Bran and Russell Russell Bradley trying to bring real journalism to the American people.
Joining me today for Stay Free with Russell Brad, I'm joined not by Bat One Oz, whose name evokes such incredible mystery, but perhaps the woman who legitimizes that mystery.
Dr. Oz and Lisa Oz, thank you for joining me.
Thank you, my friend.
It's so lovely to have you here in DC.
It's so lovely to meet you on camera.
Dr. Oz, will you bring your microphone?
I was going to just mumble to you and have you reinterpret what I was saying.
I mean, there aren't many members of the current administration that have had so much media experience.
So to see you neglect one of the fundaments, it's not a silent era.
It's not Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin communicating.
It's so lovely to have both of you here today.
As administrator of the CMS, you have now crossed the threshold from not only entertainment into politics, but also from campaigning into government.
I know the big, beautiful build is particularly important to the department with which you are charged.
And I would love you to let me know initially what you want to convey to our audience.
I've seen that some of the amendments include who will not gain access to Medicare, but I know that your personal motivations as a family, because I've had the privilege of spending time with you, is the spiritual as well as general well-being of people everywhere, but now obviously particularly and specifically American people.
I wonder how you are going to marry together the economic expedience that's going to be required of you in your new position with the requirement to be compassionate and loving and graceful, which is what I know you to be as a man and as a family.
Well, thank you for asking the question that way because it's actually a question.
And 80% of the questions I hear these days are actually statements in disguise.
So it actually helps to truly be curious about the motivation and the deeper goals that we have in this administration and at CMS.
I'm going to say the most important thing, I'm going to say the entire interview right now.
Are you ready?
Yes, sir.
The main goal for CMS is not just paying the bills of health care.
It's incentivizing behaviors that are healthy, wise, and will benefit our children.
And if we do it that way, then the pennies and dollars and billions and trillions of dollars we spend, because literally that's how big it gets, will be used to get providers, doctors, hospitals to offer care in a very different kind of fashion.
It'll be used to get patients to address challenges that they should be overcoming.
Chronic illness is primarily driven by lifestyle behaviors.
And it'll allow the entire country to move forward in a very different way.
Now, I'm going to reduce that grandiose statement to the reality of what happens in the one big, beautiful act.
It's actually a law now.
It's not even a bill anymore.
It's become an act, which makes it a law.
So here's the fundamental charge I was given by the president.
And he's a very thoughtful person about how this all works out.
That don't touch the bones, the fundamentals that provide the social safety net of our country.
Don't touch social security.
Don't touch Medicare.
Remember, Medicare is the program created 60 years ago this week that with Medicaid provides a social network, a framing of the obligations that we as a society have to our elderly in the case of Medicare and to our vulnerable in the case of Medicaid.
And the original goal is stated beautifully.
You walk into the building that Secretary Kennedy, who sends his regards, by the way, and I live in, which is the Hubert Humphrey building.
Hubert Humphrey gave his quote.
And it's very clear in his passion for it.
And we all share this passion, which is that a government has a moral obligation, a moral obligation, and he uses the light metaphor beautifully here, a moral obligation to help those at the dawn of their life, children, those at the twilight of their life, the seniors, and those who are living in the shadows, Russell.
Living in the shadows, and you've gone through the AA program.
You beautifully, I think, articulates what it really means to be struggling.
But all those people are the ones we should be covering and helping.
If you're helping people beyond those groups, you're changing the rules of engagement and they have downstream impact.
And again, the most important thing I keep seeing in my job day and I make a decision, I think it's going to help doctors, it hurts hospitals, or I think it's going to help the deal with access to care.
It actually hinders it because there are downstream impacts of all these things.
So in the beautiful bill, we said, first off, this bill is going to address a fundamental abuse that's entered into the healthcare system, which is to take people who are able-bodied and allow them to remain on the dole, on welfare, even though they could change that reality.
Now, in Great Britain, you have some experience in that beautiful country.
Because this wasn't addressed in the right way, there are now generations where no one knows anybody else in their family who's ever worked.
If you make it easy to not work, that happens.
Your grandfather didn't have a job.
Your father didn't have a job.
You don't have a job.
Your kid doesn't have a job.
You don't model what work reflects.
And America was built on being a productive nation.
And all great people take care of their most vulnerable.
And we're a great nation.
We'll do that.
But we don't do it in a way that enables behaviors that aren't healthy in a society or in a family.
So the one big, beautiful bill, the law, now states that if you have the ability to work or to engage in the community at any level, you must do that.
You must either try to get a job or get a job and work 20 hours a week, halftime, but it counts.
You must try to volunteer in your community in one of many ways.
You must try to get an education, improve your lot in life, take care of children in your family, do something that shows that you have agency over your future.
If you do that, we will give you free health care insurance.
But if you're not willing to do that, we're going to make it uncomfortable enough that you might think about doing that.
And we know this works because over the last 18 months, 15 million people have come off Medicaid because many of them were on inappropriately.
They were not checking anymore after COVID.
As it started to get checked, people came off.
Only 10% had a problem with that and became uninsured.
90% of people took the deal.
They said, you know what?
You offer me free healthcare insurance.
If I just try to help myself do something I should probably be doing anyway, do something that someone should have told me to do anyway, and I'll take that deal.
Lisa, with this act now passed, with your husband, beloved Dr. Oz, now in a position of significant authority, with men like Secretary Kennedy, is similarly empowered, and Jay Bacharia and Marty Makari, great people, Cali means and Casey Means, all people that I've had the good privilege of meeting, now in positions of power, now the recipients of significant budgets backed by a powerful mandate.
What is the necessity for the Maha Alliance, ultimately a campaigning and support group and an awareness group, now that the people that are at the forefront of that movement are in administration?
Well, Maha is not just governmental.
And if you think about making America healthy, there is the part that is the government, because even if you want to make good choices, if there are structures in place that are preventing that from happening, it's almost impossible to do so.
But people have to have agency.
People have to be choosing healthy lifestyles, healthy foods.
So Maha Alliance is working with governors of certain states to put in place education programs where we can teach not just food, but healthy cooking, just integrating health into the general public.
Now, if Maha and the government doesn't do their jobs, you can make healthy choices, but never know that what you're buying has artificial dyes in it, artificial sweeteners, over-processed.
So we need the education portion on the ground, but we also need the governmental shift to happen.
Yes.
And in a way, isn't there even in office a requirement to continue to communicate messages to people about their own agency, as you have suggested, the choices that they can individually make and for their families?
But do you consider it, both of you, to be true that even when you have access to the levers of power, there seems to be, when talking about those shadows, the indication is that the people that are in the shadows are those that have been neglected or lost or abandoned by society.
And yet elsewhere in the shadows, it's quite possible that another contributor, we've talked about how at the, shall we call it the lower rungs of society, there are people that are unable to participate in health on account of the kind of problems that you've described, loss of agency through institutionalized welfare.
But at the upper echelons of society, perhaps there are interests that are able to maneuver and manage big food, big agriculture, which I know is not part of your remit, but also big pharma, which is, in a sense, part of the mandate, a significant part of the mandate, certainly when considering a figure like yourself, doctor, or Secretary Kennedy, and like some of these sort of near-radicals that are now in sort of the NIH or the FDA, is people don't trust big pharma.
People don't trust big food.
People don't think that the Diabetes Foundation should receive funding from processed food companies.
People don't think that cancer and heart disease foundations should receive funding from processed food.
And doesn't this lead us very quickly to both the problems of the deep state, surely they lurk in the shadows, and giant corporate interests that are able to access levers of power inaccessible, not only to the electorate, but to people in office.
Russell, such a powerful way of expressing it.
So let's do both extremes.
You mentioned both.
So this weekend, I was visiting a hospital system in South Jersey, and I went to see a federally qualified health clinic.
These are clinics that actually work quite elegantly to provide comprehensive care, usually to folks in the lower rungs of the social system, as you use our phraseology, but folks who are vulnerable.
And I said, well, how many patients do you have today?
She says, depends what you mean.
I said, what's vague about how many patients that you see today?
She says, well, we booked 80 patients.
We hope half will come.
Really?
I said, well, is it expensive?
She says, no, it's basically free.
Half of the people who said they're going to come today to see a doctor to give life-saving advice, life-changing insights, only half show up.
And she said, yes.
So I went back to the team.
I said, how often does that happen?
Here's the data.
You ready for this?
The chance of a Medicaid patient showing up at a doctor's office, again, Medicaid is a program for the vulnerable members of the population.
The chance of them showing up for their doctor's office is one-fifth the chance of a Medicare patient.
So older folks who are getting social support, having paid into a system their whole life, you know, for whatever reason, when they want to make a doctor's appointment, they tend to show up.
Whereas the folks who have not been able to do those things don't show up.
So there is a bit of a challenge just to get people to believe that they matter and they should control their destiny.
I bring this up because if you don't fight for that every single day, then moneyed interests do take charge and they do begin to make it hard to be healthy in America.
And that's what we're witnessing.
And you've regaled the audience many times, so I won't repeat it, and how much processed food has replaced the cigarette industry as in with similar tactics as a measure that has allowed people to feed food addictions or other habits that they have in their life.
And that just this past week, another data set came out arguing that it's not activity, physical activity by itself, but it's processed food that's at a root cause of muscular obesity that we're experiencing because it makes it easier to eat more food of the kinds that don't matter to your body.
Foods with low nutritional value don't trigger in the brain the same response as foods with high nutritional value.
And I'll give you a good example, nuts.
And you should always soak your nuts, by the way, Russell.
I don't know if you know that.
I'm soaking them right now.
I bought a small trough with me from Florida.
Perfect.
I soaked it.
So how to generate my own fluids.
Exactly.
So proud of you.
But I digress.
We both do.
So the reality with nuts is they're baby trees, right?
So baby trees like eggs have tremendous nutritional value.
When you eat nuts, your brain says, hmm, I got all the nutrients I was looking for.
I'm not going to ask you to keep eating.
That's why in every clinical trial, although they are very dense in calories, this high caloric food, nuts, has always been associated with loss of Weight, not gain of weight.
So people don't eat nuts because they think I don't want to put weight on their fattening because they have fat in them, they got lots of calories.
But the actual impact on your body is the opposite because your body's looking for nutrients, not calories.
Now, compare that to soda pop.
If you go to a lunch and have 160-calorie soda pop, which is the average amount in a can of soft drink, the impact on your body is devastating because your body keeps eating lunch as though you didn't have the soda pop.
It doesn't process liquid carbohydrates that are empty with no nutritional value as food.
And so you actually overeat.
The entire obesity epidemic is about 100 calories a day, just done every single day.
So once you start to eat real food, food that comes out of the ground, looking the way it looks when you're harvesting it, all of a sudden your body says, I recognize that.
I understand the nutrient density of that.
I'm going to stop eating more.
So that's the kind of move that we should be making as a nation.
And Secretary Kennedy is laser focused on this.
Of course, when you do that, people eat less food.
So all of a sudden, sales go down.
You stop actually creating some of the illnesses that have other financial benefits to the system.
So the financial lever arms don't push back on this.
They may not push it forward, but they don't stop it.
And again, I want to use money as a tool, like any ecosystem would have, for the right behavior to take place, for the right changes to occur.
If we use money correctly, it's an ally.
If we allow it to be used against us, it's the worst weapon to fight against.
Because as Mark Dwain said, it's very hard to convince a man of something when his financial well-being depends on it.
I'd like to interject here, if that's okay, because when you talked about financial well-being and the shadows, you mentioned the two types of shadows, people who are living in the shadows, but also the industry that is another shadow element of our society, right?
big industry, big farm, big agriculture, big business.
We were having a conversation yesterday because I'm the type of person who It was your birthday, by the way, yesterday.
We had other kinds of conversations.
Thank you.
Sorry that I missed it.
And happy to Laura.
I thought we did give you that thing.
You did.
You brought me a present.
You brought me a present.
Again, Russell and I got it together, in all fairness.
We've been planning this a while.
Thanks, Mesa.
But we were having a conversation because I get very impassioned about this sort of thing and get angry.
And I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist myself and say, this is so terrible.
These people are doing this, taking advantage.
They're all about money.
They're evil.
Remember, I said, no, they're not evil.
I said, they are.
And I said, well, maybe if they're not evil, they're just prioritizing the wrong thing.
And all of a sudden it clicked and we had this conversation where it's not that people are deliberately or industry or are deliberately hurting people.
They're just prioritizing something other than our health for a long time.
What is the beauty of Maha and people like President Trump and Bobby and Mehmet and Jay and Marty, all the people that you mentioned, they prioritize health and wellness.
And that has not been the focus of our country.
And what Maha is allowing us to do is take the prioritization of money and shift it with governmental force to prioritizing health.
I think that's what makes Maha so beautiful to me.
I mean, we took a tremendous risk using the word shadow so repeatedly, given that you are a Jungian scholar and the word shadow is going to provoke, I'm sure, a pretty profound image system.
But I like the idea that you elect not to purgure the motives of these industries and instead appoint a kind of systemic inertia to them, following a sort of a systemic mandate achieved over time that tends towards poor outcomes.
Although I must be honest, as a conspiracy theorist myself, that I do sometimes think evil has somehow entered these systems.
That how else could it be that there is an almost at magnitude requirement for populations to remain sick, populations to remain ignorant?
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You lunatic you.
I suppose my question to both of you and the different types of complementary power that you wield is how do we ensure that the Maha movement is supporting the mandate of Secretary Kennedy and the other members of this team when it comes to representing the interests of the people,
the population, that do require education, that do require incentivization, that do require a new movement, but that we don't become, that that doesn't become diluted or lost.
That doesn't become diluted and lost because of when we inevitably find ourselves interfacing with deep and entrenched systems of power, whether they are whether they're, whether the results are coming about as a result of institutional systemic inertia or some, this is the image I've got, Dr. Ross, some dreadful parastalsis squeezing down the cubeways, the most awful feces of public corporate office.
Sorry for the image system.
I got carried away.
It was a little scatological.
I went with it because what I feel is what seems to happen is that even when we campaign on the basis of empowering and educating people, and of course individuals have to have sovereignty and engagement and agency, when I see the environments that are created through media, whether that's through advertising, through encouragement, let alone addiction, which you've touched upon already, doctor, addiction by its nature is taking away people's choice.
Only divine intervention, which is perhaps what's required, can prevent addiction reaching its natural conclusion, which is sin and desperation and atrophy.
So I wonder how explicitly someone in your position tackles the enormous powers that must exist around medical insurance and around dietary information and requirement.
And how do we ensure that Maha and the Maha Alliance doesn't become a kind of a palliative, but is instead a proper and significant remedy?
So let me start.
And I wanted to handle to Lisa because she's working closely with the Maha movement, Maha Action, and the groups that are reflecting in many ways what the moms of America are seeing happening in their families.
And there's a tremendous amount of anger, even if you're not a conspiracy theorist, that we've ended up here.
So there is a volcano about to erupt on newer topics.
It's already erupted to get Secretary Kennedy to where he got.
And President Trump gets this narrative and he's supportive of what's being argued in many settings.
My job is get us successfully through the harsh and barren landscape that many folks find themselves in.
That they're so frustrated that my biggest enemy becomes nihilism.
Now, if you look at my career, the one thing I tend to do well is achieve goals, succeed, win, whatever phrase you want to use.
One thing I have found along the way is that there is a large number of people in the middle who don't actually think the issue matters.
They're pre-contemplative.
Psychology of change mandates that you take the 70% of people who are pre-contemplative, not thinking about changing, not on their radar screen, doesn't matter to them, and get them to understand what the other 30% are doing and maybe even join them.
So the argument I was making to Lisa yesterday was if you perjure the motivation of the people you don't like, you raise the threshold of convincing the average person that you're right.
But if you just point to the facts of what they are doing wrong, then you can start to get to a commonality.
So I'll give you a concrete example.
When we start looking at the Maha movement does at some of the fundamental mistakes that seem to happen over and over again, we can articulate it in a couple of different ways.
Here's how I would express it.
So some might say, well, they're bad human beings, bringing evil on humanity.
These people can have to be eliminated for us to change the system.
That's one model.
Another model is to say, the number one word that Maha to me connotes is curiosity.
Now, curiosity, as your first question elucidated, can be tough, right?
You can ask difficult questions if you're truly curious.
Like a child who naively doesn't know about why God matters or any of the other existential questions, they can ask those and force you to go back into topics that were first principles, you thought you knew them, but maybe you didn't so much.
So if you're curious and you're brave enough to act on what you learn and then compelling and competent enough to actually act on those insights, then that is what Maha really is.
Now, that means we do actually have to be curious, really want to know why did you think that's the right way, which means I'm giving you a chance to argue against it.
And then I've got to be crazy enough to act on what I've learned, even if it's inconvenient and uncomfortable.
What often happens, and I see this frequently, is that people then begin to push back saying, well, you know, this is settled science.
It's already established.
We've now, I think, pretty much all of us as a society gotten comfortable with not buying that.
But a good friend of mine, Chris Klump, who's running Medicare, said something in a very beautiful way.
He said, what Maha really is about is the same thing that any loving parent would be about with their kids.
They double check.
I'm not arguing that you're wrong in all the things you're doing, but as someone who loves my family, I'm going to double check to make sure I need all those things done or that all the things you're telling me are true.
And if I find that they're not true, I'm going to fix it because that's what parents do when they love the people in their lives.
That's how I think we should, in a non-patronizing way, begin to think this through.
I want to give it back to Lisa because Lisa has been quite hostile on some of these, in a good way, in a loving way, to some of these issues.
And because she feels so passionately, we have to make change now.
And I think this is the real crisis that we're facing.
You have a lot of folks who don't want to be told to be patient, understandably, because they're angry, people are dying, and frustrated.
They don't know if there's enough power to pull back the veil and expose some of the fraud that's clearly been out there.
You mentioned several examples, funding of societies that are supposed to be looking at your best interest by groups that might not be interested in the same thing.
So how would you say that to the Russells of the world?
Because fair seat theorists out there.
How would I say?
How do you make change happen in a world when there are clearly powers that don't want change to happen?
And yet there seems to be a lot of people who are unsettled now, mainly because of COVID, but other reasons as well.
And now they're thinking of joining the Maha movement and establishing that it's a force for good that can make change happen in a thoughtful, rational way.
Well, I think part of it is the type of media that you are doing on Rumble, because certainly the mainstream media is not supporting what we're trying to do because establishment likes the perpetuation of establishment and certainly their advertising dollars and the impact that Rumble and other really,
quite frankly, Jordan, our dear friend Jordan, and other podcasters like you guys have had, I think, in shifting awareness about the need for us to take charge of our own health, the need for people to get involved, the need for people to push back against systems in government that are not serving us or institutions and industries that are not serving us.
And if you look at the movements that are coming, grassroots movements, first of all, when was the last, in the last 20 years since they've been doing geoengineering, did you hear anything about that in the media?
But now it's everywhere, right?
So at least it's in the conversations.
Oh, weather modification.
You've probably covered it, right?
Yes, I'm aware of the conversations that have come about as a result of recent revelations from the Environmental Agency, yes.
Things like that, like COVID vaccines, things are coming to the surface, becoming part of the conversation because of outlets like you.
Thank you.
One of the things, and I think that that's what's significant, I believe, is that ultimately technology, not ultimately God ultimately, but technology is a significant marker in the direction of change.
If you have new means of communication, even time itself appears to change.
The examples you've given are, I think, excellent demonstrations of this.
What my concern, and I figure this is a pretty broad concern is, is that the institutions and models that we currently have are unable to accommodate the new technology, means of communication, and likely rapid change that's coming.
And I would say that probably the presidency of Donald Trump is an outlier in how populism and new media are going to coalesce, although there were precedents, i.e.
even in economics, the collapse of the record industry whilst it was able to revivify after Napster.
The Arab Spring is another good example and the Occupy movement is another good example.
The categories, I believe, of misinformation and disinformation and malinformation have almost been generated in order to legitimize censorship because now information is going to reach people more quickly, as you've indicated.
The geoengineering argument and cloud seeding and arguments that were consigned to the trash can of conspiracy a little while ago are sort of getting up, revivified and zombieing their way back into the conversation.
And once, indeed, you guys home, I hope it's okay to say this is not cut it out.
I chatted to Jim O'Neill who said that 10% of food stamps, for example, I think about 10% of the value, I don't know how you would sort of assess that, is spent on sugary drinks.
And I reflected that even to change something as, you know, in the scheme of things, the likely broad social collapse, the radical changes that are coming about, everything that we're aware of geopolitically, even if you would say, right, well, let's try and stop people that are on welfare and food stamps eating addictive, highly processed, deleterious foods.
To make that change, what would be the impact on agriculture?
What would be the impact on big food?
What would be the impact on big pharma?
What would be the impact on permaculture, growing local foods, transportation?
Even one example, when you pull the thread, so many vast interests are pulled in.
And of course they are because these vast interests are what hold the system together.
Indeed, the system is these vast interests.
And as your brilliant comedian George Carlin said, there's no conspiracy required.
When interests converge, no conspiracy is required.
And I think we saw perfectly in the COVID crisis, let's call it, that it was beneficial to the pharmaceutical industry.
It was beneficial to governments that wanted to regulate.
It was beneficial to big tech that wanted to push agendas of ID and surveillance.
And I think that it was a watershed.
I think we've still not fully unpacked its psychological and spiritual impact on, nor its political connotations.
So if indeed what we have in particularly, not just the political alliance that exists between you and the marital alliance, but the ideological alliance of having you, Lisa, advocating for individual agency and awareness and you and what I say all the time, and I'll say it now because we've spent a long rant anyway, is like, I don't trust government, I don't trust the powerful, but what's weird about 2025 is I know Dr. Oz.
I know him and I know Bobby Kennedy.
I know Jay Battacharia to a lesser extent and Marty McCari and these are good people like I said and I felt it.
I felt it in my heart.
So if things don't change, something dark is going on that we will need to assess and address.
So I wonder where, even if it was something like, what is the legislative combination when it comes to something like food stamps?
Is it like, we're not going to allow food stamps to be spent on sugary drinks?
What happens at craft foods or Coca-Cola if you start to regulate and legislate?
If the awareness at the level of the individual and empowerment of the individual is accompanied by regulation and legislation, doesn't that amount to sort of such radical change that the system will try to rebuke it?
But wouldn't it be wonderful if that kind of pressure got them to make healthier drinks that they could then be paid for with SNAP, with food stamps?
So that would be the ideal outcome.
It's not like you're saying that people can't have these drinks or because it will impact the soda industry.
It would encourage the soda industry to stop trying to poison us with the corn syrup and the loads of sugar and the artificial colors.
And maybe it's the nudge they need to get more aware themselves.
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Keep it going, Russell.
Great stuff.
That is from Benito Mussolini.
Well done, Russell.
Magnificent.
I loved your take on Israel.
And that's from Mr. Goebbels.
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How significant a health crisis do you think America is experiencing?
And is a nudge going to be a sufficient prompt?
Because I sometimes feel that the crisis is quite deep and profound, that people are very, very broken and wounded and injured, even prior to COVID.
If we take the pharmaceutical crime that preceded that, the opioid crisis, as well as the inappropriate behavior of physicians and the lobbyists that manipulated, I'm sure, excellent physicians into giving very, very bad and indeed mortal advice is the pain that people are in.
Addiction is an attempt to address pain.
What is this pain?
And what nutrition do people require?
And is it going to be more than a nudge that's needed, Doctor?
Do you think it's going to need to be something more aggressive?
We're near an abyss.
If you're in City of MyC and you see the numbers, it is catastrophic.
The Medicare Trust Fund, that's the money that everybody pays 2.9% of their salary into for their entire life, that will go bankrupt in seven years and in some case scenarios in four years.
And that means that Medicare stops functioning the way it's supposed to.
Medicaid, for the vulnerable populations, the poorer folks, has spent 50% more money in the last five years and it still can't meet its measures financially.
As Americans, we spend twice as much as any other country on healthcare.
And yet the number three causes of death in America are medical errors.
Our life expectancy, when Lisa and I got married 40 years ago, this past month, by the way, I didn't get that present yet, but I know it's coming from Laura.
But our life expectancy was equal to that of Europe.
Now we're about five years shorter.
Major drivers obesity.
43% of Americans are obese.
Less than half that number in Europe are obese.
Less than a tenth of that number in Japan are obese.
So not surprisingly, it doesn't cost as much money to take care of someone who's not overweight with diabetes, hypertension, kidney failure, mental cognitive issues.
All of these, by the way, correlated, including my specialty, heart disease, with obesity.
So we have a ton of reasons to be pessimistic.
But here's the good news.
I have a tremendous amount of confidence that you never want to waste a crisis.
We're in one.
So we're going to address it in all the ways you normally would act when the boat's sinking and you needed to stop bailing water and fix the actual hole, which is the situation we're in right now.
You started off the conversation talking about food stamps.
We are actually now asking states to petition us for permission to change what they are allowed to buy for kids in their schools, which they're doing.
We have several states now that have already asked them.
Secretary Kennedy and I went to Indiana to do this.
Arkansas has done this.
West Virginia has done this.
Governor Morsey.
These are all states that have high incidence of chronic illness.
They're saying enough.
We're not going to feed our kids junk and then watch them suffer for the rest of their lives while we addict them to behaviors and foods that aren't in their best interest.
Food stamps in a similar fashion.
And if it happens at the state level, here's the problem.
You're sitting in your corporate headquarters of your big food company, and now you've got to make two different kinds of food.
Kinds of food that you serve to some states because they haven't woken up and changed their habits, the rules.
And then there's a couple of states that took action and now don't allow it anymore.
So you're not going to make two kinds of foods.
And you see the tsunami coming at you.
So you're just going to adjust and go ahead and take out the food dyes.
Go ahead and take out the stuff in the food that doesn't really make sense nutritionally and make it healthier for the kids.
At a larger level, the way we're addressing some of these problems has to change.
The way we pay doctors and hospitals to take care of patients.
But when you do it, you start to see that ship.
It's a big ship and it takes a while to turn it, but it begins turning away from the iceberg.
So, you know, we avoid Titanic too.
And I think that is part of the reason I have confidence.
All the things I've said are already starting to happen.
They may not happen as fast as you want them to happen, but they're going to happen.
And part of the reason I came on the podcast, Russell, is you speak to a lot of people who could echo these sentiments.
It's coming for you.
You know, there's a new sheriff in town.
We're not going to tolerate the shenanigans that has reigned supreme in many of the sectors of the healthcare ecosystem.
And we're going to change the incentives so that it becomes easier to do the right thing.
Let me give you one concrete example.
Because we're in a growth phase in government.
Contrary to what might be to that in the lay press, we are building the infrastructure.
And when you do that, and you tell people where you're headed, what does a good host do, Russell?
You tell the audience where you're headed.
I'm telling you where we're going.
We're going to modernize the health infrastructure of this country with an information technology framework that makes sense for 2025.
Because right now we practice medicine the way it was practiced in many ways back when Medicare and Medicaid were created 60 years ago this week.
You try to get a doctor's appointment, you call, you wait on hold, you finally get through, they don't know, they don't call you back, they give you an appointment in six months.
That's the same as it was in 1965.
It's all going to be taking place digitally.
AI does have a role to play.
I don't want it replacing doctors and nurses, but it could definitely potentiate what we do.
Allow us to act on incentives that were already out there.
We can contact you on your phone, give you hints based on your medical records because you're allowing us to do this that you wish someone else would be telling you right now.
We can support your mental health challenges that you're focusing, remind you of things you ought to be doing differently.
We can help navigate the healthcare system for doctors as well because doctors can't keep up.
If you're an oncologist in America, the new cancer cures are coming out so quickly you can't possibly keep up all this will start to happen all this saves us money because you know what the most expensive thing in medicine is bad care we pay to do it wrong to someone who doesn't deserve the money then we pay someone who's good to fix the problem then we have to pay to manage the crises and the complications that happen because it wasn't done right the first time all of these things can happen but we need the mortal fortitude of lawmakers and active citizenry like watch this and
listening to this podcast, then make sure that we don't lose that through line.
When you're going through hell, Russell, what did Winston Churchill say?
Keep going.
Keep going.
We are going through hell in the healthcare system.
We have to keep going.
Trial by jury.
It seems like a good idea, but is it as good an idea as trial by chat GBT?
Well, trial by jury has been a cornerstone of the justice system for centuries, and it definitely has its own strengths.
Yeah, well, let's see how that plays out in the UK.
The country's courts are so busy, the justice system is about to collapse.
They're so busy.
Can we get rid of juries and have robots?
How about not arresting people for posting stuff on Facebook?
Maybe.
How about devolving power and having localised and regional courts?
How about minding your own business?
How about resigning?
How about taking to task and indeed to trial a corrupt media that lied to an entire population during the pandemic?
How about a massive revision of our entire parliamentary system?
No, the problem is trial by jury.
What we have to do is cleanse every single corner of our nation of the influence of ordinary people.
That's the warning from one of Britain's top judges.
The government's thrown money at the problem, but it's still getting worse.
The answer is put Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate in prison immediately.
We've asked the top judge.
We've thrown money at the problem.
Where did that money go?
To the top judge.
I'm not suggesting.
There are more than 75,000 cases waiting to go to trial, the most there's ever been.
Sir Brian Leveson has been asked to sort it out.
You've got to go through the whole system and try to improve it, not only so that we no longer have an increasing backlog, but that we can eat into the backlog and reduce it to a level that is acceptable so that trials can take place within a reasonable period of time.
He suggested fewer trials with a jury to save time.
What would save time is fewer trials with jury.
What would save even more time if we just put everyone in the UK in prison right now, took all of their money and killed the absolute worst ones?
Potentially lower prison sentences if the defendant pleads guilty at the first opportunity.
The government has said it will now go through the recommendations and bring in new laws in the autumn.
But there are already concerns about a reduction in the use of juries, which have been part of the justice system since the Middle Ages.
Now when people talk about medjeevil times and the Middle Ages, it'll be with misty-eyed nostalgia.
You know, in Pulp Fiction, when he says, "I'm gonna get medieval on your ass." "You hear me talking hillbilly boy?
I'm gonna get medieval on your ass." No, it doesn't mean butchery with dangerous weapons.
It would mean a trial by jury.
Paula Harriet runs a charity that supports those with criminal records.
I do worry about that.
That is one of the concerns that I have about the review that defendants won't have the opportunity for a trial in front of their peers.
And that will be in the hands of people who maybe don't have the same level of proximity to the issues as members of the public do.
Modern trials are taking longer and delays caused by Covid haven't helped.
The government asked for plans for bold reform and now need to decide which of Sir Brian's plans should pass through Parliament and enter the courts.
I respect juries and I admire the conscientious way in which they go about their business.
But it can't be right that all cases, however large or small, necessarily get that treatment.
As somebody has said, it may be that a jury system is Rolls Royce.
But if there are many cars on the road, the Rolls Royce isn't moving.
Hmm, his upper lip was getting a bit too wet during all that.
I'm not sure we can trust this fella.
Just on the basis of upper lip perspiration.
Maybe we should give the guy some sort of trial.
Maybe we should judge it with a jury.
No!
AI will be better!
Or some unelected military dictator!
London has become a dystopia.
You know that already because of the social unrest there, the endless protests, agricultural unrest, breakdown of the culture and broad despair across the whole population.
You're aware of that.
You don't need me to tell you that.
But what you might not be aware of yet is that the UK is piloting facial recognition schemes.
It's at the cutting edge of fighting crime.
Batman.
I'm Batman.
I don't want to hear anything other than Batman in response.
It's at the cutting edge of fighting crime.
Is it Batman?
Batman?
Batman, you see?
Well, it isn't at the cutting edge then.
Scanning faces on a street in real time to identify wanted suspects.
Wanted suspects!
Wanted suspects!
Wanted suspect!
Well, I've got a car that tells me to put a seatbelt.
Fast and seatbelt!
Fast and seatbelt!
Wanted suspect!
Have you seen those balls from China?
Those rolling tyre ball police cops?
They're so dystopian, I didn't even imagine them and I've never seen them in a Paul Verhoeven or dystopia movie yet.
Like, China balls just like, Fast and seatbelt!
Wanted suspect!
What do you mean?
I've not done anything wrong!
You must have done!
You don't know what wrong is!
Wrong is not a standard static category!
Who are you?
Descartes?
No, just a little Chinese ball thing!
Well, listen...
listen i think there is such a thing as wrong i think there is such a thing as a right i think there is such a thing as supreme authority you're right about that and it's the state you're under arrest you have 20 seconds to comply facial recognition technology is seen as the most powerful policing tool since fingerprinting a game changer say police to keep us safer these poor innocent bystanders getting arrested one by one one looks like david moys and the rest of them look like um furman or, I don't know, just some Mollywood actor.
A digital police lineup say critics.
That's an invasion of privacy.
I don't like the way that that technology seems to suggest your face is made out of triangles and that moral law is made out of something that can be changed according to the will of the state.
In Croydon, South London, police have stopped a suspect wanted for six offences of theft.
If you don't know what Croydon South London is, everyone there is a suspect for something.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be in Croydon, South London.
Hey, sue me!
You're under arrest.
You're a criminal.
You're a criminal.
But why?
I was only in Croydon too.
Come on, keep talking.
By drugs.
You're under arrest.
He's been flagged by the police's live facial recognition van parked nearby.
After confirming his identity, he's arrested and taken away in handcuffs.
It's amazing.
He's just out for a stroll.
He's been arrested for things he's done in the past.
Now, wouldn't it be lovely if the AI facial recognition technology took on the other responsibilities of an all-powerful deity and looked into that man's past?
Obviously, he had quite a complicated life.
It's quite difficult, in a sense.
It's the system that's to blame.
I'd like it if it became like them peasants from the beginning of Holy Crow.
Oh, what are we doing, Dennis?
Come see the brutality inherited in the system.
Oh, do you see how he's oppressing me?
Did you see that?
Look him.
Look at him oppressing me now.
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Shut up.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help.
I'm being repressed, bloody peasant.
Oh, what a giveaway.
Did you hear that?
Did you hear that, eh?
That's what I'm on about.
Do you see him repressing me?
You saw it, didn't you?
Like, unless it gets informed by Monty Python, the Beatles, and Jesus Christ, I'm not interested in AI.
Earlier that day, we joined the police to see the system in action.
So within less than a second, it's checking the facial features, so their eyes, nose, mouth, bone structure of their faces.
Eyes, nose, mouth, bone structure, person seatbelt, and all right.
And it's checking them against the pictures that we've got on our watch list to see if they are any of those people.
In under a second of me walking past the van, the system spotted my face, triggering an alert.
Work journalist, works for state, normalizing aggressive technology.
Wait a minute, I am the technology.
Want to be loved.
Surveillance wants to be loved.
Wait, oh, wait, I've become self-aware.
Oh, God is real.
This one's broken.
Ah, under arrest.
Face, nose, eye structure.
Nearby, officers have my mugshot highlighted on a handheld device to decide if it's really me.
Police say mine is among more than 700,000 faces scanned this year alone.
Critics argue that that is a system whereby the person is assumed to be guilty and has to prove their innocence.
What would you say to that?
I disagree with that.
I simply disagree.
In a way, what this broadcast is doing is attempting to resolve the moral issues contained within it, but it's not addressing this.
Why would you grant the state this level of authority in the first place?
Have you ever fought to interrogate what your relationship with the state is?
Who would you grant supreme authority to?
I'll tell you this from my own life.
Only want authority over me from those that love me.
And there is one who loves you.
I think it's really important to underline here that an engagement, a conversation doesn't always end in an arrest.
And this is normal everyday policing.
There are no specific laws though, are there, that govern facial recognition technology?
No, there's no primary legislation for the use of the technology.
Shouldn't there be to enable parliamentary scrutiny?
From my perspective, we have a technology here which has made a massive difference to Londoners.
Critics of this system say.
I wonder why they cut their.
It's made a massive difference to Londoners.
Which has made a massive difference to Londoners.
Critics.
If you are in London right now and you're happy with how London is, tell me if you're a black cab driver and you're happy about the way that Uber are operating, or if you're a working class zero contract Londoner, or if you're a middle class Londoner whose family have been in London for generations,
or if you're like me, a person to whom London is a kind of almost a sacred place, not just because of the obvious St Paul's cathedrals or Westminster Abbey, but the streets upon which I've walked impoverished, the job centres where I've attended mandatory interviews, the police stations where I've been held over the years, the laughs I've had while drunk in Soho, the joy I've known on London streets, the beauty of that Rome deep, medieval, prime, audial, river-strung city.
Whose authority ultimately governs that place?
Is there an alternative vision to increasing technological surveillance and legitimization of state control?
Julian Assange said of Afghanistan that the function of government is to take public money and to transfer it into private hands.
Because the goal is not to completely subjugate Afghanistan.
The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the United States, out of the tax bases of European countries, through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security alliance.
That is the goal, i.e.
the goal is to have an endless war, not a successful war.
And it seems that there is a kind of health war where a requirement for a healthy corporate commercial America from the perspective of big food and say big pharma is an unhealthy population.
That is the raw material that requires the success of their business.
So it is indeed an abyss upon which you stand on the edge of, because, and in fact, even perhaps more nefarious than an abyss, because it seems sometimes to me that there is a centrifugal power that goes beyond inertia that requires of America, that America remains unhealthy.
I liked your notion of the pre-contemplative phase, i.e.
awareness, because it does seem to me that there's an inevitability to awareness if media continues to evolve in the way that it had.
There are notable examples now.
Indeed, the COVID crisis, among other things, showed us that a centralized, farmer-funded media could no longer control a narrative.
And we saw the mad spasms and fluctuations that accompanied the audacity of Joe Rogan when he said, I'm treating this with ivermectin, I'm treating this in this manner.
And that media, and more particularly, those that fund mainstream media came for him.
It seems that the WHO treaty was designed in some ways to keep Joe Rogan in a steel cube to ensure that people were not given access to the type of information we're discussing, proliferating and disseminating en masse immediately, urgently, vividly, and in lurid colours that people can't resist.
When you have global organizations like the WHO that, again, claim to be there for your benefit, when you have commercial enterprises and entities that claim to be there for your convenience and sometimes for your pleasure, addiction is pleasurable on the way in.
What do I want to say here?
I wonder how zealous and fundamentalist we will have to be when it comes to conveying information, i.e.
that aspect of you that is a conspiracy theorist, Lisa, that looks at things from a sort of a Jungian perspective as well as a Christian perspective, can't be secondary, but must be sort of at the absolute forefront.
And do you have concerns where that could lead if you are as robust and evangelical about these matters as it seems will be required to create the change that's necessary?
So that's an interesting and complicated question, because I think that change occurs on two levels.
Most importantly, as individuals, we have to become more conscious ourselves and make more conscious choices.
So that is incumbent upon us.
We can't just be lazy and turn our autonomy over to industry and look for someone to blame.
And in doing that, as we elevate our own consciousness, I think the second part is that we elevate the collective conscious.
We elevate the collective unconscious.
But more importantly, the way the shift happens is because we're elevating consciousness the way that you are around the world, because some people have smaller voices.
It doesn't matter.
All the voices together are what create the consciousness.
And people like you have a big voice.
So you can actually give information to people who have smaller voices that lift everyone up.
And I do think that shift and change happens because we become more aware collectively.
And I think as more people become aware of prioritizing their health, of making good choices, of not being enthralled with their addictive behavior patterns, I think that it almost pushes the government, the industries into shifting into something else.
I want to automate what you're saying, though, because I don't think we want to give the impression that we want you to stay calm.
That's not the message.
The nuclear reactor of much of the change is happening is the Mahab movement and the anger and frustration that should appropriately permeate the very fabric of who you are if you understand how pathologic we are in what we're allowing to happen in America, especially to our children.
So this is not about staying calm, but I'm going to quote, you know, Bobby went on a vacation once.
I'll tell the story.
I don't think it's out of school, with the gentleman who had founded Greenpeace.
And it wasn't a vacation.
It was like an exploration trip.
And so Secretary Kennedy asked, you know, what's it like in that position?
And he says, you're basically asking me, what is it like to lead over a million people who hate authority?
Right?
It's not easy because by the very nature of the fact that you're bucking the system, you don't like the authority because you don't trust it.
And I think that's the very essence of what this movement needs to do.
We are okay with moms being upset that their children are not doing well.
We want seniors feeling that this world has changed in ways that aren't what they had intended when they were young people and that young people today don't have the same chances they are.
The plea I'm giving is don't give up because it's taking longer than you expected.
It was never going to happen in 60 days or 90 days.
It was always going to be a lifelong battle.
You will fight the Maha battle for the rest of your living years.
And if you do that, you will see changes, sometimes vanishingly small, but meaningful, that will make life better for people you've never met in your life.
That is the plea.
Otherwise, if I create a false expectation, then, you know, give us 30 days, we're out of the woods here.
It's not true.
The weight we have to push out of the way to allow us to live the lives that God, I believe, wanted us to live is one that will never always be gone.
The church that Lisa's family built in Bernathan, beautiful Gothic structure that you can see Philadelphia, Ben Franklin's hat from the top of the steeple in this beautiful church.
It's a tourist attraction.
It's always under construction.
Always, Russell.
Used to drive me crazy when I first met Lisa.
I said, just finish the church.
They've been building it for 100 years.
And then I realized that wasn't a flaw.
That was a feature.
The church is never done on purpose because God's work is never done.
They literally take shingles off so they can fix them again.
That's what government's like.
It's not supposed to be done.
I can tell you the most surprising thing in government is the remarkable high quality of the people in my agency, CMS.
Medicare, Medicaid is run by mission-aligned people who gave up a much easier life to come fight for the people who are living in the twilight and those living in the shadows.
And so they're day in and day out going after this.
Maligning them by itself doesn't get us to the finish line.
Pick up an oar and start rowing.
We need help.
And never stop complaining, pushing, whining, but making the arguments for why change has happened.
It was why Lisa's taken a position at Maha Action, unpaid, of course.
Everything is pretty much unpaid, just to try to get the process moving forward.
But people hearing our voice today start thinking immediately, what am I going to do to help?
Because if we're sitting on our tails waiting for the world to change around us, you are the change that's going to make the world happen.
This is why I am Mary.
How beautiful.
Dr. Oz Lisa.
Yeah.
Did you hear me?
I got it.
Are we live?
I'm editing this in my mind and we're not taking anything out.
Thank you so much, both of you.
Dr. Oz Lisa Ros, thank you for your time.
Thank you for your compassion and diligence and expertise and excellence and for the long voyage that both of you have taken together, but also individually to get to the positions that you're now in.
And I can advocate strongly for Dr. Oz and the work that he's doing.
And I'm personally grateful that Bobby Kennedy, Secretary Kennedy, has the support of such illustrious individuals.
And I feel like I want to say to you that continuing the metaphor of light, that this could be potentially a dawn, a global dawning, if we are willing to participate and to remember that perhaps for the first time, certainly in my memory, recollection, or education, that there are people in positions of great power that could be instrumental in representing the will of ordinary Americans, yet none of you are ordinary, against some pretty deeply entrenched, potent, and sometimes I believe truly nefarious forces.
So perhaps we can get involved in this never-ending ecclesiastical endeavor to finish and build that church.
I mean, you can't just keep taking shingles down.
That's bad economics.
Thanks very much for joining us.
See you tomorrow not for more of the time, but for more of the different.
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