Sage Steele exposes ESPN's internal toxicity, detailing her lawsuit, suspension, and the spiritual forgiveness required after a failed divorce that drove her from Connecticut to Florida. She critiques the WNBA's "woke culture" for alienating fans over Caitlin Clark while losing $40 million annually, contrasting this with her newfound freedom at Rubin Report. Despite Rubin challenging her to disconnect from technology for safety monitoring, Steele accepts a phone-free weekend for her upcoming wedding, symbolizing her escape from corporate control toward personal autonomy. [Automatically generated summary]
Through COVID, through a suspension and cancellation and lawsuit for the last 16 months of my time at ESPN that was public against the company for which I was still working, did my best work.
And now that I'm, you know, two years in, it is beautiful.
It's such a relief.
And I think, God, all those years wasted worrying about pleasing everybody else.
So I love it.
I mean, professionally, it's something like you've been a huge part of and such a great help to me to just keep taking those steps and not be afraid of it when you've been, you know, controlled by a machine for 30 years with network television.
And you know this, I said it many times.
I wouldn't change any of it.
I'm so grateful for all of it.
But now to try it on my own and be able to say, Hey, Dave said, come on down, you know, an hour or so drive from where I live in Fort Lauderdale.
And, but I think when it fails, and as a Catholic and you have Catholic guilt, we have Catholic guilt, Jewish guilt, black guilt, white guilt.
Oh, only half black guilt.
Like, I've all of it.
And like, I just had to forgive myself.
And I mean, from a spiritual aspect, like, I thought God was going to be really mad at me.
I had to, I talked to my priest and was very helpful in saying, okay, have you prayed about this?
What has been your process to get to this point?
And then afterwards.
And then, by the way, when you have three kids and at the time, they were all in high school, you know, like trying to make life as good as possible for them and then to co-parent, which we did well, especially at the beginning.
We did really well when they were younger.
I look back on that time and the fear because then you have to go to work and support everybody.
So I remember, you know, you get a difficult text message or talk, conversation with an attorney sometimes in commercial breaks, and then you're back on that light comes on.
And whatever's going on in your personal life has to go in the back.
Everybody does that every single day when you go into work.
I think, you know, COVID happened at the same time.
It was literally three months after my divorce, COVID hit.
Like it was insane.
And living in the Northeast, not in the free state of Florida, completely shut down and winter at the time, awful.
I actually believe that from that moment on, like the beginning of those personal difficulties through COVID, through suspension and cancellation and a lawsuit for the last 16 months of my time at ESPN that was public against the company for which I was still working, I did my best work.
I just learned to become a master compartmentalizer.
It wouldn't have worked, just like you with David, right?
It takes every step of that sometimes painful journey to get to that day and that moment where I happened to be in Nashville, Tennessee at a charity for veterans because I'm a daughter of a vet and he is a vet and the son of a vet, happened to be there that one day on a Tuesday that if I hadn't stood up to ESPN and Disney, I would have been in Connecticut doing sports center, not at this event where I met the love of my life.
30 plus years ago, our fathers were stationed together at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
So in the early 90s, they graduated from West Point a year apart.
My dad 1970, his dad, 1971.
Fast forward to the early 90s and our moms actually used to volunteer at a convent for retired nuns in Kansas.
And I'm three years older.
So I was in college when he was in high school.
And fast forward to 2024 and we're at this event and he recognized me from ESPN and came up to say hi and said, by the way, you know, we kind of know each other.
And I'm like, oh, Lord, don't give me this cheesy ass line.
I've kind of heard them all at this point the last couple of years.
And when he said that and gave my mom's name, basically, I was like, excuse me?
You also know that Florida, the free state of Florida, helps me with that.
During COVID, I bought the condo in Fort Lauderdale site unseen because it was during COVID and the HOA is strict and way too expensive and stupid.
They wouldn't let us in to see the unit.
So my realtor talked her way in for 10 minutes.
I was in Connecticut FaceTime to me.
All I saw was behind her the view of the ocean.
And I'm like, let's do it.
Good timing.
It was like in May, June 2020, before everything in Florida really began to skyrocket, especially at the beach.
And I would come down every other weekend when my kids are with their dad.
I was devastated to be like alone in this big house in Connecticut.
Like you create this home and this life for your children and then you're alone.
And I couldn't handle it.
I would just melt down because I missed my babies, you know, even though they were where they should be at that time with their dad, who was great, you know?
So I would just escape down here for 48 hours, get off the air, go straight to the airport.
And the water and the sun and the sand like healed my soul.
It sounds so lame, but it healed my soul.
And it had to happen this way.
I think you find out who your friends are.
And that really, that was probably the hardest part is just realizing, gosh, I guess I was only there for that person because I carried some weight in ESPN and could help out over here.
That was probably the worst after the cancellation.
I don't want, well, you're also your daughter's in the room.
So I don't know how much I'm going to do right now, but we covered that story about Charlize Theran talking about having sex with that younger guy.
So it's, and you went on a date with a younger guy.
Yeah.
I'm not implying anything here, but like, I can sense some like, you're, because I can see you're a little like, ah, he was too young in the first place.
We talked about her at 50, I think, having sex with a 26-year-old.
And I was like, well, you know, you're lonely and you, you do like, no, why are you lowering your bar?
And so that was my prayer on January 1st, 2024.
And when I say it was like the Sahara Desert from January 1st until November 12th, 2024, when I met Dave, it was.
And I had asked God, don't bring me anybody until you bring me somebody.
Make it clear.
It was clear as day.
And I, that night when it hit me, I thought back to being in the ocean on January 1st.
And I'm like, he's literally answering my prayers because I said, make it really obvious.
I asked him to make it very obvious.
And I'll shut up after this.
Like, Dave asked me a weekend.
He's in Nashville.
I'm in Florida.
You know, four or five hour phone conversations.
All three kids had gone off to college, which was why I made the full-time move to Florida only after they were gone and okay.
And he said, what do you want in a relationship?
Like, what are your requirements?
And for the first time, I was unafraid to say what I really wanted.
And the first thing for me was that I needed someone to walk this faith journey with me because I always had a strong faith, but I wasn't fully committed to it, I don't think, and fully living it in every aspect.
But I want someone that will pray with me.
And let's resort to that before other things, before therapists, all these things.
Like, so I finally could say that and mean it.
And it was what he wanted too.
Like, there's just so much God that's involved in this.
And I was never open about my faith.
As Catholics, you stay really quiet.
You know, you pray on Sunday, you kneel, you stand, you sit, you do all the things.
And then you pray quietly on your own.
And I'm not saying I'm at a Baptist church waving my arms and passing out or anything.
No, it's not me.
But the fact that I can share that with someone, again, my only sadness is that it didn't happen sooner because this person is so, he's just incredible.
But I wouldn't have met him if it had happened sooner.
And I do believe that God made it happen this way.
So yeah, who, you know what, get to see their mom fail, personally and professionally in many ways.
Dad too, right?
All of it.
But then get to see us pick ourselves back up and still remain positive and grateful and smile and have fun and take chances and look like an idiot and not know what that means and get back up and try it again.
And then to find love again, I actually really am so grateful that they get to see a different version of me, you know, and their dad who's happy with someone else.
Like they get to see that you don't settle.
And I think quite often that's what we're told to do.
I think that's changing in society.
But sometimes it's not right.
And you have tough decisions to make, even if they are difficult for others.
But what's on the other side can be beautiful.
And that's what I hope that they take, ask questions differently than I did at the beginning in their 20s.
Stay true to what it is that's super important to them, even if it's hard to say.
That's what I know my mistakes, I pray, will do for them.
What was it like to close the door on the house in Connecticut for the last time?
Cause that's something like, I can't even imagine that now raising these kids in this house, like the idea that one day I will say goodbye to this house, you know, move downsize, whatever it might be like, just to say goodbye to the place where your family you've raised your family.
And I can't wait to put that bed and nightstand in a bedroom for her, probably soon, a bedroom that looks very different than any of us imagined with Dave, you know, and we're going to have bedrooms for all five kids somehow.
We're going to figure it out.
But like to drive away from that, I went through each room and like prayed in each room and just was very grateful.
And then I remember taking a video of myself walking down the driveway for the last time to get in my car.
I had two suitcases, a case of wine, some tequila, and the one plant that I hadn't murdered.
And I just started driving and it was 23 hours by myself.
I'd never driven more than three hours without like crashing because I'd fall asleep at the wheel a lot.
I just get my, I just fall asleep when it's like highway.
It was the most amazing therapeutic drive by myself, like starting alone in a white sedan, just driving.
And when I pulled into my condo and, you know, like had the thing in my car and the gates opened, I sobbed again because I'm like, I and happy tears, as I say, said to the kids since they were little, these are happy tears because I'm choosing what I want this to look like.
And I actually don't know what that is.
I know that it's going to start here in a small condo compared to the big house and by the ocean that has helped me through so much and given me that escape.
And I went on my balcony with a glass of wine and took a selfie.
So I can look back on that, knowing that that was like, you know, driving away was hard.
And instead of like focusing on the sadness of saying goodbye, let's celebrate the amazing memories that we got to create in this awesome house.
Like there's so many memories and videos, you know?
And that's what you're creating here.
And fortunately, like, you know, when Mike Quinn was born in 2002, you didn't have your phones everywhere and videos everywhere and documenting everything that has changed.
I did a lot of that at the end there.
But it is, and then I just said, I'm going to say yes to everything.
And so when the Trump team Trump called and they're like, you want to come with Laura?
I mean, so you were at Mar-a-Lago on election night.
We had you on.
Obviously, you're basically running down the hallway in a selfie with the thing going in and out.
But I know that's so consistently true for you because even, you know, from the first time that we met, which now it feels from the second we met, I felt like we were old friends.
I know.
But I felt that literally we were standing right there.
You turned around and I just immediately was like, I've known her for ever.
And then that's got to be less than two years ago, basically, probably about two years, something like that.
And then subsequently in these two years, our worlds just kept colliding.
And that's one of the other interesting things about the internet or whatever it is that we're part of now.
Like you start like good people keep finding each other or keep getting pushed together in a weird way, like by some other force in some way.
I don't want to get too much on this tangent, but we talked about him once before.
I don't mean to make about him exactly.
But like, when you see someone that like really seems to go over the deep end in our world, so Keith Olberman, for example, like, do you think that is that just like, is that fame going to somebody's head?
Is that money going to somebody's head?
We don't even have to make it about him specifically.
Feel free to say whatever you want, obviously.
But like, because I've seen a lot of that.
I've seen people that I thought were so incredible who've completely lost their mind.
I've seen, and then I've seen people who I thought were kind of average that really turned out to be spectacular and every version of that.
Right.
But like when you see people that really like had it all seemingly and then just like, go just nuts.
I told you I wanted to be that I was watching in college heyday of Sports Center with him and Dan Patrick and Craig Kilbourne, who I thought he was the one that made it funny.
And I was like, I was like, that's what I want to do.
So you feel live streaming is different than live TV just because it's not as produced and there aren't as many key grips and gaffers and it's just a difference.
Well, I guess partly that's also changing because the nature of having a phone in everybody's pocket is changing.
So in the old days, you can think of like the TV host who was perfect on camera, but then yelling at the guys off camera, where now they can't really get away with it the way they used to because everybody's recording everybody and everybody's got an ear on something.
So it doesn't, it's a little trickier these days probably to be so to be so outwardly evil, I suppose.
There's probably ways you could be underhandedly evil.
But then even if it's not caught on camera, word of mouth, man.
And that word gets out and you hear things about like Charlie's there on and how through the years, I don't know how she is now before she talked about sleeping with the 26 year olds and how great it was, which was, I'm like, what?
Or there's something maybe difficult, sad going on in her life right now, which is no excuse.
But as I always said to my kids, like there's no excuse for bad behavior, no matter what's going on in your life.
But there might be a reason.
And I do think that those are two different things.
Like it doesn't excuse your behavior, but maybe that's why she was off that day and snapped at me and tried to show me up online to embarrass me and it worked.
I just want to jump back for a second because when I asked you the question about closing the door of your home, since we're here with a lot of 20-year-olds and we're of a certain age, do you remember the last episode of Three's Company by any chance?
John Ritter, who was amazing, amazing.
And we really lost him soon.
He was so great.
But the ending, the last episode, he walks out.
Jack Tripper walks out and Janet walks out.
And then the blonde who was the nurse wasn't Christy.
It wasn't Chrissy.
It was whoever that blonde that came in for those last two seasons.
She's kind of like as if she had done everything she was supposed to do there.
And it reminded when you were saying that you had sort of closed up that chapter and moved on.
It felt sort of complete.
And the reason I'm doing a little callback, the reason I'm doing a little callback with that is because everything that you've just described in your career since then, then you dove into this whole new world.
You didn't know what the hell you were doing, but then just kept taking these chances and it worked.
You didn't know what you were doing in the dating world and it worked.
And it's like, that's the lesson that I was trying to illustrate for people on this August show.
But it's almost like validation that you did a good job because if someone walked into your home and loved it so much that they wanted to bring their children in and they have two little boys and raise them there and not change a thing and keep whatever they could that I was willing to leave for them.
I'm like, okay, I did a good job.
And now someone else feels comfortable enough to do that.
And then you can walk away knowing that, gosh, it wasn't perfect, but I did my best.
And I also felt that leaving ESPN, I knew that I had already gone beyond what I ever dreamt of to be hosting NBA countdown.
And to me, during the greatest run since the Jordan era was with, you know, the Warriors and the Cavs.
I did all the finals from 12 through 19 and it was the best run.
And it's like, okay, after that, there was, I came back to sports center, my roots.
I knew there was nothing left there.
That's not why it ended.
But I could leave that knowing that, man, I left it all out there and did my best and learned so much and changed so much.
And I thought, as I'm driving away in tears, I started at ESPN with my kids ages 11 months, two, and four.
And I left and they were 18, 20, and 22.
It's a lifetime.
And I wouldn't have had so much if not for those years there, which is why you don't change anything, but it was healthy.
I don't have a desire to go back and visit.
I kind of, I'm good.
Obviously, I didn't love it there anyway, between the weather and the taxes and the people.
And I mean, there were certainly some awesome people.
But like, I think moving my whole life as an Army kid, leaving is hard.
And to go back, it just brings back all these things, some of which are really good, but they're past.
And you can't go recreate it, even if you want to.
So you have to go recreate it elsewhere with other people.
And again, we're taping this in July with the, with the, with Pat McAfee, of course, who now is one of the kings of ESPN, who I do like, Pat.
And talking about how, yeah, I stood up and, you know, ends up I was right.
I was talking, I got canceled a month before Aaron got canceled.
And we got to be closer friends during that time because as soon as I saw his cancellation, I texted him and I pushed in and he was immediately writing back because we were all in this like fearful, crazy thing.
And I remember telling him telling me that he would get text messages from some of the other top, top, top quarterbacks in the league and players, but specific quarterbacks who were like, dude, I'm with you.
I'm right there with you.
Not one said it, though, publicly and let him fry.
So there was nothing more that I hated than that during the height of when I was saying a lot of things about the left that now everyone says, but when it was tough to say it at that time and I was getting all the hate for that and all that, there was nothing I hated more than go open it up Twitter, have a DM and every time I'd be like, I know what this is.
And it would be someone usually more famous, more successful, more money, blah, blah, saying, I love what you're doing.
That broke my heart for Aaron because I was in it too.
Yeah.
But his was so much bigger because he's Aaron Rodgers and just got crucified and continued to.
And then, I mean, I think it very much affected him.
And he's, oh, yeah.
He does things.
I mean, affects all of us, but like you've seen him change since that time.
Yeah.
And it breaks my heart for him, but he was right.
All of us who pointed those kind of hypocrisies out and things that just didn't make sense, even though we didn't know why it didn't make sense at the time, it just didn't feel right, you know?
So yeah, I look back on that along with Aaron and you and a million other people.
I'm like, yeah, damn it.
I was right.
I was right to question it, you know?
And I, and I also look back and I, I'm, I laugh at the things that people on their airwaves are allowed to say now.
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You showed me a clip right before we started.
So this will be a couple of weeks old by the time we start, but this is at a WNBA game.
Guys, we'll throw the clip in in post.
I I don't even know the broadcaster's name.
Maybe you know her name, but I mean, she just made a joke about getting the D. Most people know what that means.
And she did that clearly pre-packaged and pre-planned on network television.
Well, again, we hope it gets a little bit more competitive because like a girl's trip to Cancun right now, there's no D. I would assume the WNBA wants 13-year-old girls to watch.
I'm going to go out on a limb and think that the 39-year-old parent of that girl is not too thrilled with that.
Like, hard for the course for that person who I don't really want to call a woman because it's not very feminine or womanly to, I think, act that way, specifically plan that kind of a joke on national TV when you, to your point, you have young women who are watching because the numbers of the WNBA continue to increase and the ratings were bringing so many fans into women's sports and women's basketball.
And you got to say that so you can get some clicks.
But in some way, does it feel like the next extension of the internal struggle that's happening with the WNBA now?
Like this thing that's between where there's this sort of, well, there's clearly a racial tension.
Then there's the financial tension, which I guess is the meta tension above everything that they claim that they're not being paid enough, even though the league loses $40 million a year.
That's not to say girls aren't awesome, obviously.
But in some way, when I saw, when you showed me the clip this morning, that clip that we're talking about, I was like, oh, well, this just kind of feels like the next obvious step.
Now the broadcasters are all, will all act the same way.
You know what I mean?
Like it's just like, it's just everything and nothing at the same time.
When you goes back to our prior conversation, when you make it about you and you make it about yourself in that moment on a really big stage, especially based on how much WNBA has grown with Caitlin Clark and many other women, they just keep shooting themselves in the foot.
And it isn't just the athletes and not supporting each other or not supporting Caitlin Clark or whatever it is.
If it's the broadcasters too, like, guys, just it's, it's bad business.
So of course I remember the magic bird thing and it was there was there was a racial element to it in that bird was white from Indiana and magic was LA, you know, he's from Michigan, but but LA magic.
But it wasn't racial really.
Like there was like a tiny tone of it, like one of these guys is white and one of these guys is black.
I told you, I was watching in 95 and Cynthia Cooper.
I was like, this girl is, and she was old at the time by the time the WNBA started, but she was unbelievable.
But do you think there's something maybe a little bit more about the female temperament or about the way females generally behave with each other as it relates to jealousy or something that's leading to this?
Where, so like you have Magic and Bird, they're, you know, they explode the NBA.
And then in some sense, I mean, they talk about it in the book about the dream team.
They knew it was time to hand it to Jordan.
And now Jordan was going to take the league.
And then he did unimaginable things with it, where the girls, for some reason, seem to think it's going to take away from them as opposed to that this could all add on together, something, something like that.
unidentified
Well, yeah, I mean, that's I know that's like a kind of broad stroke, but it's probably true.
I really enjoyed being around her, but how she was treated and it's, and, you know, God forbid you have a different opinion in the WNBA.
Yeah.
I know people in that league who have very conservative views would not dare say it out loud because it's the WNBA.
So if you are white in a league that certainly has majority black players, I think it's safe to say, I don't know the numbers, and a heterosexual and getting all the attention.
unidentified
This is the result, I guess, which is shameful because it's the logical conclusion of wokeness, basically, is what you're saying.
And obviously, you're going to game plan to try to slow down the best player on the other person's team.
Double team, whatever it is.
But the physical nature of it and the attacks and the going after, I'm not saying she's innocent.
She's a hell of a good trash talker and good.
That's part of the game.
Larry Bird was arguably the best trash talker ever.
He just didn't see it, right?
And he's like, oh, it's the country boy from Indiana.
Oh, no.
Get out of the way.
He is filthy, dirty.
He was, I was in Indianapolis covering the Pacers in 98.
I think it was when he took over as the head coach.
And he was savage.
He scared the crap out of me as the coach, much less Larry Legend.
So get it, girl.
You know, that's part of the game.
But I don't understand.
I mean, I think we know why we've talked about it, right?
But someone needs to get in the ears of these girls, women and coaches and at the top levels as well and say, you are actually turning people off from your sport because of how you're choosing to treat one person.
It just looks petty.
And I believe there's so many women who are so good and so talented who are now being lumped together with the idiots who are making it about race and divisiveness.
But hey, I do.
I think if she were lesbian, it would be a little bit easy for her, easier for her.
But it's also like really complex and hard to talk about also.
Cause the racial element, it's become more comfortable to talk about in some sense.
The sexuality part, because there's also, because it's not seen necessarily, also adds like a weird tension to it.
And the fact that the, I don't know what the exact numbers are either, but like it is, it is something psychologically or sociologically to think about that, let's say, gays, supposedly around 10% of the population, but if they're like half the WNBA, like, how does that change the perception of the league in some sense?
Like, it shouldn't on the basketball court, but if all of that shit is leaking onto the court, then it's something.
Anna Karnakova, who wasn't an incredible, she was pretty good, but not like amazing, but she don't think she ever won anything significant as far as tournaments are concerned.
And so then, you know, hey, usually the more masculine you are as a woman, the less you're viewed as attractive, fair to say.
And so then if you have a lot of masculine looking women, maybe predominantly masculine looking women in this sport, any sport, everything's different.
The marketing's different, right?
And there are many who are not and who are very feminine and have, you know, lashes and braids and nails and makeup and are very proud of that.
You know, I don't care, actually.
You do.
I'm just saying what comes with that is maybe not something that you can put your finger on exactly, but it's not, it's not shocking.
I mean, how many of those WNBA players are getting makeup contracts?
I don't know, versus Anna Cornicova with makeup and clothing and all those things.
It's also just all of it shows that there are differences between people.
Because if you, like, if I was taking, my boys are 13, we go to a basketball game, we go to a men's game, and then there's a fight or something, you'd be like, ah, that's not the right way to play, but something, something where it does strike me, and maybe this is old-fashioned something, that if women start fighting with each other and you have to explain that as a mother to your daughter, what they're doing when she loves basketball, it does seem different to me.
unidentified
Is that just a fight, like the physical aspect of it?
And you can see it in her game, you know, and obviously she's had some injuries here and we need to keep her healthy.
But there's many people, and I think I've heard you say this before on maybe on our actual friends show where you're like, at some point, she's just going to be like, why am I putting up with this?
I'm going to get severely injured and it's going to affect everything in my life.
Let me go start my own thing because you talk about having sponsorships and support and support of Middle America and people on the coast who guess what?
Well, that's the funny part of her wearing the shirt during the all-star game.
It's like, you are right, actually, perhaps that you are not paid what you should be paid, but you're also subsidizing all of those other people and they want more of what you're bringing them.
And then they're also kicking the shit out of you.
I don't sit down and watch many NBA games right now.
My life has changed a lot and I've watched thousands and thousands.
I'm like, been there, Johnny.
I'm good.
And I watch at certain times, watch the finals and the playoffs.
I'd say, especially when the pacers run.
But Kelsey at the podium after the game talked about wearing the t-shirt.
And then there was a meeting, I guess, a meeting of the minds to talk about the shirt and then what they are demanding or hoping for financially.
And she called Caitlin out.
And I didn't hear the exact soundbite, but I read, you know, yeah, not to rat on her or anything, but, you know, Caitlin and most of her teammates, they didn't show up at that meeting.
Like, what's the point of saying that in front of a microphone?
And then Kelsey Plum is white and heterosexual.
Like, I don't know what that is.
Is it?
And fine.
Maybe you're making a great point.
But when you do that publicly, you look like a petty, you know what?
And also at the end of the day, it's the same thing as the Colbert thing we were talking about on Actual Friends, which is at the end of the day, the WMB is losing 40 mil a year.
And who's going to cancel a women's league that's made up probably more than 50% minority?
You're not touching that, are you?
No way.
Maybe they're smart.
I hope they get it, but I don't know.
Do they say, oh my gosh, well, so-and-so deserves, I think the highest salaries are $150-ish $1,000 a year based on the valuation of one of the franchises.
Like, I understand that.
That's why you're in the CBA talks right now.
And hopefully by the time this airs, it's over with and people are happier.
But guess what?
All those times of flying commercial, well, and it's improved.
And now you're private.
Now you get the fancy hotel.
But why is that?
Right.
Because of people like Caitlin Clark who have helped grow it and everybody's winning.
And you'll be able to tell your, you could tell your parents and your kids, hey, I'm with Dave.
So if there's an emergency, we do have a way to get me if there's an absolute emergency.
You know what I mean?
And we had a couple things that there, one, one of the few things that I said I would come back for is a few years ago, because I knew that Larry King, who is my friend and mentor and like kind of bonus grandfather, grandfather, I knew that his health was failing.
And I really felt that if he passed away, I wanted to be able to just say something, just put something out there and then disappear again.
So that was like one, you know, one thing.
But then we have like an, if there's an emergency, like a death in the family or that kind of thing, we're attainable.
But you have a husband, you will have a, you have a fiancé this summer who you could be with that weekend.
And that way, if your kids need you, need mom, they can reach out to him.