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June 17, 2024 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
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How Famous Feminists Betray Women Behind Closed Doors | Riley Gaines
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riley gaines
Just this past, I mean, a week, two weeks ago, the National Organization of Women, right now, the leading feminist organization for the past, I mean, 60, actually probably longer than that, yeah, 60, 70 years, I mean, they were the ones who fought for Title IX.
You think of sexual liberation and reproductive rights and the pink hats.
Okay, that's this group.
They released an article that called me a white supremacist patriarchist.
I don't even know what that means.
I don't even know where the patriarch is from when here I am.
Fighting for the rights of women.
It's so silly, but that's the response I've been met with by most feminist groups.
That's not to say there aren't some who have been steadfast in their original, I guess, movement, their original mission of fighting for sex-based protections.
There are some, but it's very few and far between.
It's the feminists who are leading the charge In dismantling our sex-based rights.
You think of someone like Billie Jean King.
I mean, this is who we have to accredit Title IX to.
She played in the Battle of the Sexes and she won, and it was this huge feat that propagated women forward, not just in sports, but really as a whole, in the workplace, in our personal relationships.
We have her to thank for that.
She's now actively campaigning and fighting for men to infiltrate into women's sports and women's spaces.
dave rubin
I'm Dave Rubin and joining me today is a former NCAA competitive swimmer, host of OutKick's
Gains for Girls podcast, director of the Riley Gaines Center and author of Swimming Against
the Current, Fighting for Common Sense in a World That's Lost Its Mind.
Riley Gaines, welcome back to the Rubin Report.
riley gaines
Well, thank you, Dave.
I am thrilled to be back on with you.
So thank you.
dave rubin
We're doing this a little bit.
We're doing this a little bit backwards because I had you on a couple of weeks ago with Sage Steel doing a panel show, and now you're getting the proper interview after you've done the panel show.
I think it's the first time we've ever done that.
Also, your hair is very predatory right now.
I love it.
Love it.
And I think you're in Vegas.
riley gaines
I am.
I'm in Vegas.
My hair looks like a lion's mane.
It always does.
But yes, yeah, I think that means I must have made a good impression if you're having me back.
dave rubin
You did make a good impression.
The people clamored for more.
So let's just dive right into it.
If you don't mind, I am going to ask you to do the thing that you've done a million times before, and you kind of did with us a couple of weeks ago for those who didn't see the show.
But if you could just give us the kind of brief bio that made you a public person so that when I read your intro there, it has like 87,000 things for me to say.
riley gaines
I know it.
Yeah, what a whirlwind it has been these past two years or so.
I was an athlete.
I grew up an athlete.
Started competing, practicing when I was four years old.
Graduated when I was 22, so I mean, dedicated really 18 years of my life to my sport.
You know, the time, the hours, the dedication, the sacrifices that you have to make to compete at and ultimately be successful at the highest level.
I was no different.
I ended up going to the University of Kentucky, which I'm biased.
The SEC is, in fact, the best conference.
It was never a question for me to go anywhere outside of the SEC.
I actually thought I was going to be a Florida Gator, though, for the longest time.
I took my trip there, my official visit, didn't feel like home, kept going on my trips.
Never even crossed my mind that I would go to Kentucky because I thought the only things that came from Kentucky were like meth and Mountain Dew, which neither of which I was interested in.
dave rubin
Well, also whiskey and bourbon.
riley gaines
Come on, come on.
Still not interested in that either.
But I took my trip there and I loved it.
I fell in love.
I love the team and the coaches.
The resources that they poured into us, outside of even just athletics, our academics, and our service, all things that really matter to me.
And so, on a whim, committed there, very proudly finished my career at Kentucky as a 12-time NCAA All-American, a five-time SEC champion, actually the SEC record holder in the 200 butterfly, making me one of the fastest Americans of all time, SEC Scholar Athlete of the Year, SEC Community Service Leader of the Year, two-time Olympic trial qualifier, But again, just to reiterate, lifelong journey to get to that point.
Despite what that senile old man Keith Olbermann says.
This is a public call, Keith Olbermann.
I will race you.
Except I don't think anyone wants to see you in a Speedo.
dave rubin
No, no, no, no.
unidentified
Nobody wants to see Keith Olbermann in a Speedo.
riley gaines
No, I didn't think so.
But anyways, flash forward here to my senior year.
My junior year, I actually ended up placing seventh in the country.
I wanted to win a national title, so I set that goal for my senior year.
That did not happen, because the NCAA, I mean, they failed at their most basic duties of ensuring equal opportunity and privacy and safety by allowing a man to compete with the women.
This is a very mediocre man.
Actually, that's generous.
This is a less-than-average man who Sucked, quite frankly.
Competing against the men.
Decided he would switch to the women's category.
Became a record smasher.
It's virtually the same story every time as we continue to see these occurrences happen across the country.
dave rubin
Where was he ranked?
Do you remember?
It was like it was like 300th or something, right?
Something crazy.
We know him as Leah Thomas.
What was his real or what's his original name?
Whatever you want to call it.
riley gaines
Will Thomas, William Thomas.
And 300th would be kind.
He was 504th in the nation in the event we competed against each other in the year prior, when competing against the men.
To the next year, 12, not even a full 12 months, dominating the entire country.
I mean, every single girl or woman in the entire nation.
And not just number one, I mean, utter domination.
And multiple events.
I saw this as wrong.
My teammates saw this as wrong.
My coaches, my family, anyone with any amount of brain activity saw this as wrong.
But Dean Sibley did not.
And so I got to watch as Thomas swam to a national title in the 500 freestyle.
I mean, again, beating Olympians, beating American record holders.
These aren't scrubs.
They're the most impressive and accomplished female swimmers this world has ever seen.
But he and I raced in the 200 free the next day, which ultimately resulted in a tie,
meaning we went the exact same time, down to the hundredth of a second.
But despite tying, we get out of the water, go behind the awards podium.
NCAA official looks at both Thomas and myself.
Thomas towering over me at six foot four.
And the official says, great job.
Uh, but you tied.
We only have one trophy.
We're going to give this trophy to Leah.
Riley, you don't get one.
You have to go home empty handed.
And when I asked the dreaded question.
That no one dared ask all season of why, you know, why are you adamant on giving this trophy to the man in the women's 200 free?
I actually appreciate his honesty.
And he looked at me and he said, Riley, I'm so sorry, but we have been advised as an organization that when photos are being taken, it's crucial that the trophies in Leah's hands.
That was it for me.
I mean, really, I felt guilty is how I felt.
I felt like I had just participated in the farce.
I felt like I was just as bad as the people who created and implemented these policies by going even along with this.
Again, I knew it was wrong.
We all did.
But for even participating, I felt responsible.
And that's when I decided that I could no longer stay quiet.
I could no longer lie to myself and to everyone else around me.
I guess that was a condensed version of how I became a public person, in your words.
dave rubin
Yeah, so let me pause you there, because that's really the origin story.
But there's a couple really interesting moments within that.
So first off, what were your expectations that day that you were going into the race against him?
And I have no problem saying him.
Did you think there was a chance in hell that you could tie or even win?
Or were you just expecting to lose no matter what?
riley gaines
We were fighting for second place, me and every other girl back there.
We had talked about it, like, hey, I mean, good luck.
We know our hands are tied behind our back.
May the best woman come out in second.
We knew we were going to lose, which is a terrible, what a terrible feeling as competitors, as athletes.
We compete to win.
That's why we play.
It's not for camaraderie.
It's not for friendship or to be inclusive or for any other reason than to win.
And we knew that wasn't a possibility, which was, I mean, it just felt like betrayal.
It felt like a mockery.
It felt like belittlement.
And I say betrayal because the people who were supposed to be protecting us were failing.
dave rubin
So it was really sort of doubly crazy because not only in essence did you actually win, by tying him you won in reality, but then being told you didn't win.
So it's like they're hitting you twice there, which is sort of amazing.
You did the thing you didn't even think you could do and then you're being punished for it, which is rather extraordinary.
Had you ever come across a trans swimmer before that?
Or was this sort of the first instance of all of that?
riley gaines
So this was the first time for me seeing it happen in this way, where a male was allowed
to compete with the women.
But a few years prior, a swimmer at Harvard, a female, she was able to compete with the
men.
I knew this was wrong, I saw this was wrong, but I didn't really see the harm in it because
again she was jumping down in the rankings majorly.
And so I thought to myself, I mean, it actually never occurred to me it could happen the other way.
I thought there were policies and provisions in place that would prevent that from happening again.
Not what happened.
Um, and now we've seen this, this social contagion take over every state, every level, every division, every sport, this is happening.
Um, but I hadn't seen it happen the other way.
And I'll say one other thing at this meet, which was unique, which naturally the media has done a terrible job of covering was we had another athlete who was transitioning there, but this was an athlete from Yale.
Of course, of course she was from Yale.
Yeah.
What else would you expect from the Ivy Leagues?
But by the name of Izzy, who began to identify as Isaac.
So again, keep up if you can, a female identifying as a man who we were told we fully had to treat as a man.
I mean, we had to go to sensitivity training to learn how to use he, him pronouns and she, her pronouns so we could accommodate both of these individuals who identified as trans.
And so Dave, Just for optics purposes here, okay?
It's the finals of the 100 Freestyle.
Top 8 women in the entire country.
And you've got a 6'4 man in a women's swimsuit with a bulge next to a woman wearing only a Speedo.
Nothing covering her top.
I'm sitting there looking at this.
dave rubin
Yeah.
riley gaines
And we, we mentioned this on the panel with Sage Shield, but, but really again, the reality of the situation, I'm looking at this and I'm like, no, this is a South Park episode.
This is like a Babylon B headline or like an SNL skit.
Um, I thought I was the crazy one.
It must be.
I'm the problem.
Uh, but no, they both wrote in their arms on with big black Sharpie, let trans kids play as if they both weren't playing in the category that best suited their chances for success.
dave rubin
Right, you just needed macho man Randy Savage to show up in a bikini and the episode would have been complete.
I actually, we made a couple jokes about this last time so we don't have to belabor the point too long, but you did just mention the bulge and I do think there's an interesting piece related to that because in essence he, William Thomas, At that time still had male genitalia that you can visually see you're in the same locker room.
I think we clarified it on the last show.
He doesn't anymore as he's now or he does, but his girlfriend doesn't.
And he's now a lesbian or it doesn't even matter other than just the absurdity around all of this.
OK, so you get it's after the race.
You're told the tie, but he's going to get the gold medal.
Who did they say was instructing all of this when they said, Oh, well, we're told that, you know, he has to get the gold or he has to get the first place ribbon.
Like who, who are they referring to?
riley gaines
Let me tell you, this is something that I'm still trying to get to the bottom of.
Um, every single person said, they say, our hands are tied.
We know this is wrong, but our hands are tied.
And so I followed it all the way up through the president of the Institut Blais, at the time, was Mark Emmert.
Now, of course, it's Charlie Baker.
Uh, don't even get me started there.
It was Mark Emmert at the time, who publicly, in the days following this national championships and, and the public outrage that this meet received, Uh, he released a statement saying he unequivocally stood in his decision to allow Leah Thomas to swim with the women because it's based in evolving science is what he said.
And so I see him.
I see Mark Emmer at this conference where they're announcing the NCAA Woman of the Year,
which is the most prestigious honor for collegiate female athletes.
It's something that encompasses not just your athletic success, but your academics and your
service and your leadership skills.
Basically a very well-rounded person.
And so each school gets one nominee across all of their female athletes.
And so I was chosen as University of Kentucky's nominee, which was like the most humbling
We had the number one WNBA draft pick in Abby Steiner, who's breaking world records in track and field and a national championship volleyball team, but they chose me.
And so...
Very honored by this until a full list of nominees for NCAA Woman of the Year came out.
And of course, it was not exclusive to just women because Leah Thomas was the University of Pennsylvania's nominee.
But nonetheless, I go to this conference, I see Mark Emmert.
I'm like, there's no way he's escaping.
And so I approach him and to which he says to me, you keep going, you keep fighting, keep pushing.
But the audacity for him to tell me to keep fighting as if he's not the one that I am fighting.
Again, don't forget, he released that public statement saying he fully supported this and asking him, you know, why do you say that but act this way?
Our hands are tied.
That's the president of the assembly.
Who's tying the president's hands?
I think a lot of it's money.
I think a lot of it's fear.
They don't want to lose federal funding.
They don't want to deal with lawsuits.
Whether it's corporate America, academia, what have you, they don't follow red or blue, they follow green.
That's been very obvious, right?
You look at Bud Light, you look at Target, look at Planet Fitness, whatever these companies are that are tanking because of how they have embraced this DEI nonsense, they end up in some way, shape, or form reversing course.
or attempting to.
dave rubin
So can you talk a little bit about how your parents felt about all this and family and friends that were watching
you and you know, we've now seen a couple videos
since you've been so outspoken about this, where some of the audience at these,
it's usually in swimming matches, are kind of turning on these men swimmers
pretending to be girls.
We're seeing a little bit of that now, but again, you were at the forefront of this.
What was it like just for your family?
And then when you realized that it was gonna be much bigger than what you just did sort of in the pool
and that it was gonna become this cultural touchstone?
riley gaines
So, My dad, he's an SEC Hall of Famer.
He played football.
He played in the NFL.
So he's a big, I mean, he's a big guy, right?
Well, he used to be muscular.
unidentified
I think he's kind of just fat now.
riley gaines
But when I told my dad about Specifically the locker room.
We didn't know he was going to be in our locker room until we quite literally were undressing next to this naked man.
Until we were non-consensually exploited in the way that the NCAA had allowed for.
And so I called my dad immediately.
The meet was at Georgia Tech.
My parents, of course, were there watching.
And so I call him and I say, Dad, he's in our locker room.
To which my dad said, Riley, come open this little side door.
I'm coming down there and I'm going to handle this myself.
To which I had to say, Dad, We already have one man in the locker room.
We don't need to.
And you'll go to jail.
And that is where he would be right now, in an orange jumpsuit.
But honestly, that was a large part in me speaking out, is because I didn't want my dad to go to jail.
But I'm so fortunate to have such amazing parents, parents who raised me to think for myself, to call out an injustice when I see it.
They gave me a strong and firm faith foundation, which is a large part in Being able to do what I do with a smile on my face because the battle has already been won and that's the most beautiful thing about all of this.
And a lot of that, actually all of that, is certainly instilled from my parents.
dave rubin
Explain that a little further.
How do you mean the battle's been won already?
riley gaines
Look, this is what we're seeing.
Again, not just this issue.
We're warned.
Paul warns us.
He tells us in Acts and Romans and different places that these spiritual battles will intensify and we will reach a point where dark is seen as light and bitter is seen as sweet and evil is seen as moral.
And it's undeniable that that's not where we're at right now.
And look, that's not me saying that I think people who identify as trans are evil.
No, I don't think that.
But deceit is evil.
Manipulation is evil.
Lying and affirming delusions is evil.
And who's the father of lies?
Who moves through deceit and darkness?
Satan does.
But in spending time in scripture and in the word, It's very clear the outcome of this from an eternal perspective.
Yeah, we see the battles that we face from a worldly perspective on a day-to-day basis, but when you know the outcome, when you know what you're fighting for, yes, I'm fighting for objective truth.
Everyone can see that.
Anyone with a brother knows the differences between men and women.
I don't have to sit here and say that men are taller, faster, stronger.
I don't have to do all that.
So yes, I'm fighting for objective truth, but more importantly, far more importantly, fighting for biblical truth.
dave rubin
So this all happens, you start getting in the news, and talk a little bit about how the feminists and the feminist organizations treated you, because anyone listening to this right now is going, oh, this is the ultimate feminist story, a woman fighting for herself, a woman, like that's the great heroine story, except I'm fairly certain that's not exactly how you've been treated by these people.
riley gaines
No, it's not how I continue to be treated by these people.
Just this past, I mean, a week, two weeks ago, the National Organization of Women, right now, the leading feminist organization for the past, I mean, 60, actually probably longer than that, yeah, 60, 70 years, I mean, they were the ones who fought for Title IX.
You think of sexual liberation and reproductive rights and the pink hats.
Okay, that's this group.
They released an article that called me a white supremacist patriarchist.
I don't even know what that means.
I don't even know where they- Congrats, sister.
Patriarch is from when here I am fighting for the rights of women.
It's so silly, but that's the response I've been met with by most feminist groups.
That's not to say there aren't some who have been steadfast in their original, I guess, movement, their original mission of fighting for sex-based protections.
There are some, but it's very few and far between.
It's the feminists who are leading the charge In dismantling our sex-based rights.
You think of someone like Billie Jean King.
I mean, this is who we have to accredit Title IX to.
She played in the Battle of the Sexes and she won and it was this huge feat that propagated women forward, not just in sports, but really as a whole and in the workplace, in our personal relationships.
We have her to thank for that.
She's now actively campaigning and fighting for men to infiltrate into women's sports and women's spaces.
Even most recently, when I testified before Congress, I sat next to a Democrat witness.
She's the president of the National Women's Law Center.
And in her opening testimony, she said that women should just learn how to lose more gracefully to men.
And I'm sitting there listening to this, and I'm like, How can she call herself a feminist?
The president of the National Women's Law Center.
And she just said we should learn how to lose more gracefully.
And it's hilarious because they do this under the guise of progress.
It's deemed progressive as if we're moving in the positive forward direction.
But let's be very clear.
This is not progress.
This is regressive.
It's taking us back in time at least half a century, really even further than that.
And that's obvious again to anyone with a brain or really a heart for that matter.
dave rubin
So I'm blanking, you mentioned Billie Jean.
Who's the female?
Megan Rapinoe is the female soccer player who also has come out basically saying that men should be playing female soccer and that women should sort of back up behind them.
Do you think in a weird way it's so that they can protect their own prestige and their own records?
Like is that, would it be as simple as that?
riley gaines
No, 100%.
Look, Megan Rapinoe waited until she was done with her career to say this.
Don't forget, she lost to a team, the US Women's National Soccer Team lost like 12 to nothing to a team of like 15 and under high school boys.
Like really, Megan?
Really?
Billie Jean King, of course she's old and like decrepit at this point.
And I think it's worth pointing out that both of these women They don't have kids.
They don't have daughters to fight for or to defend or to protect.
So it's a classic case of virtue signaling.
That's very obvious.
That's their sellouts.
Look, that's not to take away from Megan Rapinoe's or Billie Jean King's athletic accomplishments.
They're fantastic in their own right in their sport.
Amazing.
But you can be amazing at your sport while also simultaneously being a sellout, a traitor to your own sex.
And that's what Megan Rapinoe is.
dave rubin
It's also interesting because they both both happen to be lesbians, and I don't care about their sexuality, but if they were young girls right now, the entire system would be pushing them to become young boys.
And I don't know that they hate their bodies.
riley gaines
No, no.
dave rubin
Maybe they do.
I don't know.
riley gaines
The gender ideology movement in its true nature is homophobic.
Lesbians have seeming, really the LGB part of this community has been used as political pawns throughout, I mean, by politicians, by the media.
That's very obvious.
But I think more and more people are seeing that.
More people who are a part of this movement, they say, hey, wait, I don't think the T portion really represents what We represent how we fought for our rights.
It seems like they're just taking other people's rights away from them.
They're not fighting for any kind of right.
They're taking other people's away.
dave rubin
Do you see a connection to everything that you've been through and what's going on in the culture wars and what's happening with Caitlin Clark now in the WNBA?
riley gaines
I have never in my life, all of this WNBA stuff, I, like, am so perplexed.
Like, I am just perplexed.
I am in this state of really confusion.
I have never seen an organization self-implode on itself the way the WNBA did.
It's extraordinary, yeah.
It's extraordinary.
You have people like Jemele Hill or Sonny Hauston.
Sonny Hauston, who said that Caitlin Clarke has straight privilege, white privilege, pretty privilege, which I've never even really heard Caitlin Clarke and Pretty used in the same sentence.
And tall privilege?
Is every WNBA player not tall?
Like, what is this?
It's, it's, yeah, no, there's definitely a parallel between, I think, what Caitlin Clarke, I mean, really, it's just sports have become hyper politicized, whether it's the BLM movement or the kneeling for the anthem, which sports are supposed to be the one place you can go To not look at identity factors, to not look at race or religion or sexual orientation or gender identity or anything for that matter.
It's the one place you go to escape politics, but as we have seen by ESPN, I mean the list goes on, they have hyper-politicized sports.
dave rubin
Has that been the saddest part of all of this to you?
Because obviously there's great upside now because you're out there and you're fighting for young girls and for yourself and everything else, which is wonderful.
And this is an important piece of the culture war.
But I would imagine you don't think of swimming the way you used to.
And I keep thinking that with Caitlyn Clark.
They are so destroying the Michael Jordan of female basketball that I just know she cannot enjoy it as much as she should right now.
And it's probably going to shorten her career and she will probably Walk away at some point when she still should be the best player on the court and what a what a damn shame It is it's a shame.
riley gaines
She could look at it in two ways.
She could use it as motivation Which I was pretty encouraged after obviously should not make the the u.s.
Women's Olympic basketball team, which is a travesty, but when reporters asked her about it and she said hey I Look, let's keep the focus around the 12 girls.
Look, she doesn't want this.
Just like I didn't want to be in this position.
She didn't want to ask for this national attention outside of merely celebrating her for her success.
And so she said, you know, I'll just use this for the next four years.
And so I hope that's the mindset that she continues to have, because she really has.
I mean, not just for basketball, she's put a lot of eyes on women's sports.
And that's cool.
She set viewership records and all kinds of crazy stuff.
Again, Sunny Hostin, Yes!
says she's problematic.
Kaitlin Clark is the solution to the problem, which the WNBA clearly wasn't prepared for,
didn't have the infrastructure to handle.
dave rubin
You know, I've mentioned this a couple other times on the show, but I went to the same high school
I'm probably like eight or nine years older than her but I did play basketball with her a couple times at our local park and she was pretty damn good but she wasn't better than most of the guys and I was barely playing with guys that could make the high school team and the fact that this has just become so Broken in everybody's brains, my god.
What about how this is, sort of, you mentioned the culture war part of this and all of that.
What about the part that's just become so political now?
That, you know, you're thought of as political while you're talking about these things and obviously you're invited to certain political events on a certain side of the aisle and all that.
riley gaines
Yeah, no, that's been the biggest... I guess the most demoralizing thing for me, the most disheartening thing, as a younger person, just turned 24 years old, a recent college graduate, to see just how divisive Everything is.
Every issue that has been deemed political, even the protection of women and girls.
I mean, in the U.S.
House, the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act was introduced by Representative Greg Stubbe.
It fell entirely on party lines, meaning 219 Republicans voted in favor of protecting women and girls in sports and all 203, every single last one of them, mothers and fathers of their own young daughters, all 203 Democrats voted in opposition of protecting women and girls in sports.
I've been able to go to the State of the Union the past two years.
Of course, the address where Biden sits up there and mumbles and screams and my ears were ringing.
At least he didn't read the word pause off the teleprompter in this one.
But really, it broke my heart.
I left there feeling so sad because this wasn't an address that was supposed to be political.
It was literally supposed to just be addressing the state of our nation.
But watching, of course, the members of Congress and the Senate on the floor, one side would stand up, they would sit down, one side would stand up, they would sit down.
There was nothing cohesive about it.
There was not a single issue that both parties stood up and cheered for, which I was, to be kind of honest, the only time I've ever been glad that Biden was president because I didn't have to stand up one single time.
Democrats can't say the same.
dave rubin
Yeah, well, you've spent a lot of time conditioning your body, so it's nice to have like a two-hour window where you can just kind of sit back and enjoy all that.
Where do you sense, well, what would you want the outcome to be?
Meaning, okay, so if we are to have, if Title IX is just, and we're to have men's sports and women's sports, what do you do with the Will Thomases of the world?
riley gaines
Um, it's very simple.
And this is actually a good point, and it's what we hear all the time.
I travel state to state, I testify in different state legislatures, and every single time they say, well, you know, you're banning trans athletes.
This is an exclusionary ban.
They won't be able to play.
What?
I'm not banning these bills that are being introduced and passed.
They don't ban anyone from playing sports.
I will be the first person to say that every single person, trans or not, should play sports.
But just play in the category that is safe, number one, and fair, number two.
We cannot prioritize inclusion over safety and fairness.
And so Will Thomas can compete in the men's category.
It's really that simple.
We hear all the time, OK, well, what about a third category?
I am not a proponent of a third category.
I think it's ultimately still pandering to the problem, and it would still very much be men competing against women.
And I believe that people who identify as trans, their safety and fairness matters too.
And that would still be under threat when you have males and females competing against each other.
And so, okay.
Do you then further separate it between men who identify as women and another category for women who identify as men?
unidentified
Right.
riley gaines
Okay, then do you even further separate a category from men who began taking puberty blockers before puberty and men who began taking puberty blockers after puberty?
And like I said, we don't look at identity factors in sports.
We shouldn't have a category based on identity factors.
Every category that we have, like age or like weight classes in boxing or fighting sport, right?
We have heavyweights and we have featherweights.
We don't have the heavyweight category because we're fat shaming people who weigh more.
No, we have that category because we know the outcome if we did it.
A 280-pound person would beat someone who weighs 180 pounds 10 out of 10 times.
And it's not bigoted to say that, or it's not to say that the 180-pound guy is inferior.
No, but we just know what the outcome would be.
So all that to say, the solution is what has been in front of us the past 52 years.
Women compete against women.
Men compete against men.
dave rubin
Has Serena Williams ever reached out to you, because we mentioned it on the show with Sage a couple weeks ago, but she went on Late Night with David Letterman about 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago, and basically said that men's tennis and women's tennis are completely different things.
She said that if she was to play Andy Roddick, who was not even the best men's tennis player in the world at the time, that he would basically beat her 6-0, 6-0, 6-0.
And she's kind of gone silent on this as far as I know.
Have you had any connection with her?
riley gaines
No, she has gone total rogue here.
And yeah, she did.
Her and Venus.
They played the 203rd ranked male tennis player in their prime, and they lost in a blowout.
Not to mention he played 18 holes of golf before and was drinking and smoking in between sets.
And then went on to, in interviews afterwards, said he played like a 600th ranked male player.
So that already has happened.
But it's they've been totally quiet.
I can't remember if it's Serena's husband or Venus's husband.
I think it's Serena's husband.
He has a sports bar.
Out in Oregon, where the whole objective of the sports bar is to promote women's sports.
It's a women's sports bar, you know, they have women's sports playing on all the TVs at all times.
Oregon was one of the five states just in the past two weeks or so that had boys winning high school girls state titles in track and field.
And then this bar owned and invested by, I believe, Serena's husband, or Venus's, one of their husbands.
dave rubin
I think it's Serena.
Yeah, my guys are telling me it's Serena.
riley gaines
They were promoting and platforming this boy.
So that tells me a little bit.
It's not Serena directly, but it's her husband.
And again, that's just another case of, it's just sad.
It's just sad is what it is.
These women are pulling up the ladder behind them.
That's what Megan Rapinoe is doing.
That's what Venus and Serena Williams would be doing if they took a stance in support of this.
dave rubin
You mentioned the social contagion part.
Abigail Schreier, I'm sure you know the book Irreversible Damage, wrote an incredible book about the social contagion, particularly as it pertains to young girls transitioning to boys, not the other way around.
I'm wondering, are you hearing from young girls who are in high school now, or maybe
even younger, I have no idea, who are saying that actually these are not trans, like if
we're to accept that, okay, fine, 0.01% or whatever it is, that people are genuinely
have this condition, that the social element, that there's just this huge other group of
people that are just like, oh, I just want to win matches.
Perhaps that is William Thomas, perhaps not.
We don't, I guess we don't know.
unidentified
Yeah.
riley gaines
At best, Will Thomas was confused, but at worst, he has a fetish and we are being forced to participate in this fetish.
He's taking advantage of an entire system.
And it's not just sports where this is happening.
We're seeing it in sororities.
We don't see any women joining fraternities.
No, but we're seeing men join sororities.
We're seeing it in prisons.
You know how many inmates, male inmates, in California prisons in recent weeks applied to get into women's prisons?
1,600.
And you know how many women applied to get into men's prisons in California systems, prison systems?
One.
dave rubin
I was going to say one if she had a hell of a sense of humor.
riley gaines
No, she had three months left in her sentence.
And so we're seeing this.
AIDS is running rampant in California prisons because they're transferring these men over.
I've talked to correctional officers.
I've talked to people who have quit their jobs.
Because they can't allow themselves to be, in good faith, be a part of this.
California has condom dispensers in their women's prisons.
New York has posted placards in their all-female facilities talking about pregnancy prevention.
We've seen people get pregnant in New Jersey, Ohio, Kansas, California, New York, the list goes on.
And it's only happening one way.
Even in terms of how our language is being impacted.
You've got bills on house floors where It would take female or mother or woman out of state statute.
We're not seeing this to replace it with like cervix haver, uterus owner, menstruator, bleeder, chest feeder, birthing person, birth giver, egg producer, the list goes on, whatever other derogatory term they can come up with.
But we're not seeing this happen to the word father or to the word man or to the word male.
Then I think for a couple of different reasons, one of which men would not put up with that for one second.
Could you imagine a man being called a sperm producer?
Oh my gosh, they would laugh in your face.
Men wouldn't put up with it for one second, as we saw with Bud Light.
They boycotted it immediately.
But women, we're sitting by and we're cheering and we're clapping and we're, I mean, at our own demolition, at our own erasure.
And I think it speaks to the personality differences between, we talk a lot about the physical differences between men and women, but the same men who have always been men are the same, I mean, assertive and demanding.
It's the same men who are demanding what we call them.
The same docile, empathetic, apologetic women are entering into men's space and demanding that they do anything.
So.
dave rubin
I got one more for you and then we're going to play a little game that my guys have handed me that I have not seen any of it either, just to put it out there.
Do you now view this in a weird way as a gift has been given to you?
Because I mentioned when I had you on with Sage a couple weeks ago, the people that I'm interested in these days are the people like you.
Step into something accidentally.
You were doing something that you loved and then something happened to you.
It's the exact same story with Sage.
She did not intend to become so outspoken on COVID or on the gender stuff.
She just wanted to be an ESPN anchor, but now has been brought into a much broader world, wider world.
Do you view this as a gift and an opportunity now?
And I guess what do you really want to do with it?
riley gaines
It's so funny because I was in dental school after college to be a dentist.
Actually, an endodontist is what I was specializing in, which is root canals.
dave rubin
Root canals.
I've had one.
unidentified
It's not as bad as everybody says, totally honest.
riley gaines
I think this position that I've taken is certainly more painful than a root canal.
It's just been a total 180.
I mean, I've had to learn so much.
I knew nothing about our government.
Like, when I say nothing, I mean, I never had to take a government course.
I never had to take history.
I knew we had three branches.
Didn't know what they did.
I still don't know what they do.
I don't even think they know what they do, to be totally honest with you.
dave rubin
I know what they're supposed to do.
I don't know what they actually do, but I know what they're supposed to do.
riley gaines
Then you know more than me because I don't even know that.
So I've just learned so much and I've adapted and I've become so secure and confident with, of course, my argument and my stance, but with myself.
And so all of that to say, Never something I wanted.
Definitely not.
Still not something I want because it's a tragic fight to be fighting.
But nonetheless, I've gotten to meet some amazing people.
I get to talk to amazing people like you.
I get to go to amazing places and have real impact.
And that's fulfilling.
You know, talking to parents and to coaches and to young girls themselves who just reach
out and say, thank you.
You know, you've given me the courage or something along those lines.
There's nothing better than that.
That makes all of the backlash, all of the hate worth it 10 times out of 10.
And so I guess in a weird way, I do have Leah Thomas to thank.
I will thank him right now.
Thank you, Leah Thomas.
It sparked a conversation that I think without him highlighting so perfectly all of the insanity,
the locker room, the silencing, the trophy incident.
I mean, the fact that he's literally six foot four and sucked competing against a man, yet they vowed to give him the trophy because they were advised to.
It happened perfectly in the most cynical, weird way to have this conversation and to highlight the concerns that so many people Um, had had.
So thank you.
Um, it's, it's, um, it's sad, but lemons and lemonade.
dave rubin
I don't remember if I fully got the answer from you on this one last time, but my director Connor here has a theory that Leah Thomas is using the penis as a propeller.
Do you think that that is helping?
riley gaines
It's like a rudder.
unidentified
Yeah.
riley gaines
Yeah, no, for sure.
You know, like surfboards have that little fin at the bottom.
That's like Leah Thomas.
dave rubin
On that note, I am told that we are going to do this together at the same time, but I'm going to let you answer first.
We have 12 pictures of people and we want to know if they are trans or not.
We want to see whether you truly are an expert at this or not.
We're both going to be destroyed for this.
Here we go.
unidentified
You first.
riley gaines
This is a woman.
dave rubin
Okay, so you think that's a legit woman.
I am going to say that is a man.
And you know, we'll flip, so I'll go first, then she'll go first, et cetera.
I'm gonna say that's a man.
She says woman, I say man.
That person is a man!
One for Dave!
All right, here we go.
unidentified
That is... That's a man.
dave rubin
You think that's a man?
It looks like Alanis Morissette after a lot of cocaine.
I'm gonna say woman, I'm gonna say woman.
That is a man!
Alright.
You're gonna keep score here?
It's 1-1.
Okay.
Alright.
Uh, that looks like... I know who this is!
Oh, is that Blair White?
unidentified
No.
dave rubin
Sorry, sorry.
It's Prince Charles!
It's Prince Charles?
unidentified
What?
riley gaines
Yeah, that's Prince Charles.
James Charles.
dave rubin
James Charles.
I don't... So he's not trans.
He's not trans.
Alright, that is a dude.
Wait, what?
No, that's a woman.
That's just as a guy.
That's a guy dressed as a woman.
Wow.
You really guys, this is the correct research team I have here.
Okay.
riley gaines
That's a woman.
unidentified
Yeah.
dave rubin
She looks like a pretty, she looks like a chick.
That's a man.
God, I'm getting too old for this shit.
All right.
That looks like a man.
riley gaines
A woman.
dave rubin
That's a man, too!
riley gaines
Are they all men?
What have you guys done here?
dave rubin
Brock!
Alright, hold on.
riley gaines
Man.
unidentified
Woman.
riley gaines
I don't even know.
dave rubin
I'm gonna say woman.
I'm gonna say woman.
That's a man.
Okay, what else?
riley gaines
They just gave us 12 pictures of men.
dave rubin
Yeah, wait.
Woman.
Riley?
riley gaines
Woman.
unidentified
That's a man.
riley gaines
I'm done playing this game.
dave rubin
This game.
All right.
That looks like a man to me.
What do you think?
riley gaines
I can't even keep up anymore.
unidentified
That looks like a man to me too.
dave rubin
Yeah.
unidentified
Wow.
dave rubin
We got one.
We both got it.
That is a man.
Old school.
All right.
Are we almost there?
riley gaines
A man.
dave rubin
I mean, I guess man, right?
We're going man.
Yes, it's a man.
Okay.
We're there.
We found the trick here.
Is it a man?
riley gaines
No, this is Ariana Grande.
unidentified
Oh.
dave rubin
Oh, she's the one that licked the donut and then said she hates America or something.
Remember?
Wasn't that her?
unidentified
Yeah.
All right.
dave rubin
Uh, no, that looks like, um, I don't know.
unidentified
That's a woman.
dave rubin
Um, that's just a man.
Man.
It's a man.
It's a man.
unidentified
Oh. Oh. I'm waiting for you.
dave rubin
It was nice seeing you, Riley.
Oh wait, I'm told we have one more.
unidentified
This is too good.
Woman?
dave rubin
The viewers can decide.
Riley, you are absolutely fantastic.
And I just, I love the fight that you're in because you're in it begrudgingly, but for all the right reasons.
I just can't wait to see all the great things you're going to do.
riley gaines
Well, thank you, and I appreciate you, and allow me to just very briefly say, it doesn't matter how feminine a man makes himself look.
Take Miss Maryland, Mr. Maryland, actually, for that matter.
It doesn't matter how feminine someone can physically alter themselves to be.
If you are a man, you are a man.
So, had to say that.
Anyways, appreciate you, Dave.
Thank you.
Let's do it again sometime.
dave rubin
Anytime, Riley.
riley gaines
Thank you.
dave rubin
If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about politics instead of nonstop screaming, check out our politics playlist.
And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist all right over here.
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