Winston Marshall exposes the Islamist threat in Britain, citing MI5 data on 38,000 extremists and detailing how political correctness silences criticism despite rising attacks on MPs like Mike Freer. He argues that planned Labour legislation criminalizes free speech while policing disproportionately targets white counter-protesters, undermining democracy through intimidation and forced assimilation failures. Ultimately, Marshall warns that ignoring these integration crises and the rise of anti-Semitism risks eroding British Christian ethics, urging a return to open debate at his upcoming Dissident Dialogues festival. [Automatically generated summary]
Well, I had opinions that put my whole band, Mumford & Sons, in trouble.
And there were professional repercussions for them, a dog pile from the industry.
And I could have stayed, but it would have meant living a lie, actually literally lying.
And so I decided actually better to live, tell the truth, speak my mind and speak freely than take that path.
And so it wasn't technically cancelled, I quit because those were sort of my options.
Now the issue in case was Andy knows specifically, he wrote a book about Antifa and BLM riots, the 19 deaths in the first 14 days of the BLM riots, the mass looting across America, and all the damage done across America, not least to black businesses and black communities.
So a picture for the music industry, That was absolutely a topic you could not go, you know, break against.
Well, this is the height of sort of COVID lockdown.
It's more like the third lockdown.
If you remember, I think June 2nd was when Black Square, it was basically a picket line.
Everyone in the music industry had to have put up a black square to show their allegiance with the Black Lives Matter organization.
And There's a funny example is the band Hanson, I don't even remember that band, but they put out a Black Square a day late and they got a pile-on from their fans.
This was how insane it was and of course since then I feel very vindicated, not least because Black Lives Matter, which they made something like 90 million dollars in that period.
None of which they spent on black lives, it was spent on a very healthy real estate portfolio, as well as various trans charities, and this stuff was apparent to me.
I'd been reading the BLM literature before, like people like Patrice Kankalos and Tanahasi Coates, although he's not technically BLM, but what they were about was abundantly clear.
It was also clear And this is bringing the story forward, where they stood on issues like Israel and Palestine.
So, for example, at the beginning of 2021, they were on pro-Palestine, fiercely anti-Israel marches.
That was happening.
Now, we see this flare up again after October 7th.
I think it was the Chicago BLM faction that put up a silhouette of the paragliders.
Just after October 7th and so it was always clear what their worldview was.
It was Marxist, it was anti-capitalist, it was anti-family, anti-nuclear family.
They're explicit on their website and all of this I've seen this and I thought this is absolutely ridiculous and that's Why I think I ended up having an interest in a journalist like Andy Ngo, who was covering this kind of stuff, showing the opposite of what the mainstream media was covering.
You know, mainstream media, you remember the classic Chiron CNN, mostly peaceful protests.
This is old news.
I'm sure your listeners know this story inside and out.
Or rather, not my story, but the story inside and out.
It's always funny to me, because I know a lot of people don't like doing their origin story, so to speak, over and over again, and I sense that with you for sure.
But it's important, I think, because you're a musician first, and now you are outspoken about a lot of these things.
But all you did, am I right?
All you did was tweet out a link to the book, right?
Andy's book, which was about all the things that you just described.
But that was it.
It wasn't as if you went up there and said something crazy or anything else.
The band did not fire you, you basically stepped away because it was just creating too much Various radio stations said they wouldn't play us, venues said they wouldn't host us.
I was under, I would say, serious duress, was put out an apology.
Now I'd also say at the time that I was open to being wrong, so maybe I have got something wrong, people are offended, maybe I've done something wrong here.
And then there was about a two or three month period, that was March, Two or three month period when I just looked into this topic.
I feel like I know the topic inside and out.
Because if I was going to die on a hill, I'd better know what hill I was dying on.
Unfortunately it was a bloody mole hill, which was rather frustrating.
And then I decided I had no way forward.
I was not sleeping.
The whole thing was unbelievably stressful.
And so a few months later I put out a letter explaining why I had no choice but really to quit.
And to save my old band the trouble of association with me.
And since then, life's been completely wild, and I guess that's why I'm speaking with you now.
I've been thrown into this world of ideas.
I still, of course, play music.
It's my first passion and first love, but You didn't bring a banjo with you by any chance?
That isn't an origin story, it's just a little chapter, but I guess it's the origin of how I now end up three years later in the world of ideas.
I then went to The Spectator, it's a British political magazine, I was there for two years.
Doing interview shows similar to you, starting in the arts but then going to wider topics, taboo topics.
I feel somewhat, and I'm sure you feel this, well I imagine you'd feel the same way, somewhat of a responsibility to tackle those taboo topics because people at home can't.
They can't have those conversations with their friends or at work or their self-censoring.
Yeah, well I think we've sort of shifted out of some of that.
There do seem to be some protections against, you know, oh my god, somebody in a band tweeted out one thing I don't like.
The firing and the leaving of things and all that seems to have defrayed a little bit, but you know, it's always right there and you never know when it's going to return.
But it's interesting to me that you described it as, did you say an act of God, or you thank God now that it happened?
But some, I mean, maybe I say this if anyone feels like they're in such a situation.
Don't be scared because on the other side there are wonderful things and actually the best thing in life is to be you, is to be the best you and pursue you.
And as you said before this conversation started, let the chips fall as they may.
And I actually believe that.
Tell the truth and let the chips fall as they may.
There's a lot of Jews in London, a lot of Jews in Britain.
And meanwhile, I was seeing on my phone through Twitter, through a couple of photojournalists I follow, that across town, In Kensington, where the Israel Embassy is, there were celebrations, jubilant celebrations.
Flares were going up, people were on their knees praying, saying Allahu Akbar.
This was two days after, so there'd been no response from Israel.
And it was carnage, joyous carnage.
It was like a festival.
And obviously, like, you know, I'm sure you've seen the October 7th footage.
That was the worst pogrom since the war and how that can be the reaction is just totally shocking.
Now for me, later that evening I went home on the tube and there was someone who'd clearly been there.
We were on the same carriage together and I say clearly been there.
He was wearing the colors, he had a keffiyeh on, but most strikingly was that he was He was sauntering jubilantly, he was happy, and he was about a meter in front of me.
I was completely distraught by that.
I was very angry, I wanted to hit him, I didn't hit him, but I also wanted to break.
I was face to face with that, and that really had changed me.
When you're up front with that sort of, I would say, evil, like if you're celebrating October 7th, something that I really can't imagine more evil than October 7th, and for your reaction to be that that is a good thing, I've never been the same since then.
And I think you would have that experience.
Now, you say there are Hamas protests.
Well, every weekend since there have been protests.
I don't think, like, just for the sake of clarity and it's worth being...
It's worth being accurate just for people who disagree, because it's not just Hamas supporters.
There are Hamas supporters.
In fact, I think on the first weekend there were three women who wore, who on the back of their clothes had taped images of the paragliders on their back.
They've just been charged and prosecuted about two or three weeks ago.
One of them was from Gaza.
So she'd moved to Britain from Gaza, fleeing Hamas.
She's now in Britain celebrating Hamas.
So yes, there are Hamas supporters there.
And I've been to a few of these protests to witness, and there are.
Now, there are also far-left Socialist Worker Party types, Jeremy Corbyn types.
I mean, Jeremy Corbyn's literally there.
There is a far-left British ultra-progressive contingent to it, and there's quite a few people in between.
The reason I say that, by the way, and I appreciate you kind of cleaning it up, is that there's no one there that would openly state that they are against Hamas, right?
I mean, have you ever seen that?
I've seen one guy once went to one who was like, Hamas shouldn't do this, but, you know, freed Palestine and he got heckled and kicked out too.
That's the distinction, but I understand that there's many people, many different groups there, let's say.
I'd go further and say that their ire is directed at Israel, the state of Israel.
They're not saying free Palestine from Hamas, they're saying free Palestine from Israel.
And so you are accurate in that sense.
So things are worse now, like since you were here.
Well, let's go back two weeks or three weeks ago, there's an MP called Mike Freer in the constituency of Finchley and Golders Green, which is northwest London.
It's a very large Jewish community.
Before Christmas, his offices were arson attacked.
He has to wear a bulletproof vest everywhere he goes, he says, and he has had jihadi groups specifically targeting him.
There was an MP about two years ago called Sir David Amos who was killed by an Islamist, and the Islamist I had first gone to this guy, Mike Freer, to scout him out.
I had also gone to another MP called Michael Gove before finally going to Sir David Amess and killing him brutally.
So Mike Freer then says, I don't want to run anymore.
It's not safe for me.
Okay.
So an elected official, a democratically elected official doesn't want to represent his constituency because he fears for his life.
Okay.
So democracy is being completely undermined here, but it gets worse.
Last week, the Speaker of the House, Lindsay Hoyle, There's a complicated system how Parliament works, but in brief, went against parliamentary protocol because, well, two main reasons.
One, because the Labour Party was going to be split because some of the Labour Party are more pro-Palestine and then the leader, Sir Keir Starmer, is trying to be a bit more moderate and have a sort of more two-state
approach to it. But the other reason is, and this was specifically cited by Lindsay Hoyle, the
Speaker of the House, was that MPs are being threatened for their lives and we know that this
is from Islamists. So what is actually happening in the Commons is that they're
going against protocol because of Islamist threats.
At the same time this was happening, outside on the streets, outside Parliament, huge protests, and they were lighting up the Elizabeth Tower, or Big Ben, from the river to the sea.
And so democracy in Britain is literally being completely undermined by the Islamists.
This has now blown up to a whole other story about Islamophobia.
Now, there is anti-Muslim hate that's on the rise.
Anti-Semitism is just skyrocketing.
We've had synagogues closed, Jewish schools have been closed.
What's happening there is atrocious.
But there's also anti-Muslim hate, and that should be acknowledged.
But then this is blown up into a whole conversation about Islamophobia and this word Islamophobia.
And so instead of, when there is anti-Muslim hate, they call it Islamophobia, which means that you then can't criticise the Islamists who are literally shutting down Parliament or affecting what's going on in Parliament.
And so now there's this huge row about Islamophobia.
Meanwhile, almost all of the politicians are too terrified to call a spade a spade and directly address the Islamist issue.
The Islamist issue in Britain is massive.
Okay, the Manchester arena bombing, which happened in 2017, which is when a young second generation born in Manchester is called Salman Abedi of Libyan heritage, Set off a bomb at Manchester Arena, a venue that I'd played a couple of times before and after that event, killing 22 kids and wounding 100 others.
How have I got here?
So, sorry, I've lost my train of thought, but, well, hammer the point.
At that period, The MI5 acknowledged that there are 22,000 jihadis in Britain.
A couple of years later, MI5 has said that of the 44,000 extremists in Britain, 90% are Islamists, which is about 38,000.
So 38,000 Islamist extremists in Britain.
90% are Islamists, which is about 38,000.
So 38,000 Islamist extremists in Britain.
Now we're a country that's, which is, I think we're 67 or 68 million people,
which is the population of Texas and California put together, but the size of Oregon.
So we're a lot denser than these places are here.
And there's a lot of Islamists.
But you cannot talk about the Islamist threat because of political correctness.
Because you can't say, you're being harsh to Muslims.
No!
Of course we must stand against anti-Muslim hate, but we must be able to criticize Islam Which is a serious issue in Britain.
Now, the other thing that's even... Sorry, I'm ranting.
The other thing that's frustrating, and this is what's also part of the whole story that's going on, is almost no one in Westminster, none of the British politicians, are prepared to actually address it because they're scared of the repercussions.
Because they'll be tarred as racist, or they'll be tarred as far-right.
So, And I think there's about three MPs, only three, who are prepared to be honest about this.
They're Suella Braverman, Kemi Badenoch and Lee Anderson.
Now, unfortunately, Lee Anderson spoke about it and he was a bit clumsy of his words, although he's not apologised and He's continuing.
Suella Braverman lost her job as Home Secretary for criticizing multiculturalism.
Multiculturalism hasn't worked in Britain and Kemi Badnok is at least making the case for The delineation of words and being accurate of words.
Things are going to get worse.
Let me just continue.
A very important thing that's about to happen in Britain.
People who care about free speech, your viewers who care about free speech and censorship, really have to look at what's going to happen here.
So Keir Starmer and the Labour Party are going to win the next election.
Not because people are moving to Labour.
The recent by-elections show that.
No.
Everyone's rightly lost confidence in the Tories who have completely fucked up the country.
They've been a total disaster.
People are no longer voting for the Tories, not really voting for Labour, and recent by-elections suggest they're voting for new small right-wing parties like the Reform Party.
What the Labour Party are going to do, and this is going to be a big row over the coming years, is the definition of Islamophobia.
They're going to put in the worst definition of Islamophobia, and it currently includes any criticism of Islam.
So we're going to be in a position where you cannot criticise Islam.
Meanwhile, there's all these things going on in the streets.
Well, there's a lot here, but I think it's important because even for my American viewers that don't necessarily know much about the UK or the political situation or anything else, to me, you guys are just in some sort of slightly more future version of where we could end up unless we start dealing with this stuff properly.
There's demographic reasons it's not exactly the same and geographic reasons and immigration reasons and all that, but there is some form of this that is now happening all over Western Europe.
So, do you see any way Out of this for your country.
I mean, when I was in London, it was the first time I ever traveled where I had armed security with me the entire time.
I did not feel particularly safe on the streets when I drove by that protest.
I thought, man, if someone recognizes me in this car, like, this is not going to end well.
I've been to London a dozen times and loved it every time before that.
And there are parts of Europe which are worse, like Sweden, for example.
The problem has been that no one's prepared to talk about assimilation or integration.
And the reason why it's also worse in Britain than here, although I'm not totally sure I understand the American immigration issue, but in Britain, a country of 67 million people, last year we had 700,000 net plus immigrants, migrants to the UK.
There are 1.2 million illegal immigrants in Britain.
There's about 50,000 who come in illegally every year.
We had about 3 million last year, so it's 10x-ed in about three years.
Like, that's not a tenable situation.
I think the Republicans will be better.
Our Republicans, sort of like your Tories, like, they're pretty bad, but they're not, like, unbelievably horrible, like the Labour Party or our Democrats.
There's another mayoral election this year and he's going to win that.
And the alternatives being proffered by major parties aren't They're not serious candidates.
There's no serious push against them.
In fact, at the last mayoral election, which again was against Sadiq Khan, the Tories put forward a guy called Sean Bailey.
And he lost because the Tories didn't believe in him enough to put the money behind him.
But actually there's some evidence, if you look at it statistically, like had he had more investment, he actually would have won because people don't actually like Sadiq Khan.
So the Tories don't even believe in themselves to win.
And not that I would vote for them in that election, but There is no alternative.
There's no pushback politically.
And this is what's also dangerous, is because it's not being dealt with at a political level, there's a serious danger it will get dealt with on the street level.
Already, the white working class thugs, violent types, are saying they're going to start counter-protesting and coming.
Can you talk a little bit about how the media treats them?
Because, you know, I follow a guy like Tommy Robinson who I had interviewed It could be a decade ago already at this point.
Who was warning about a lot of this stuff and he was framed as far right and I don't know every single thing about the guy.
But I always see on Twitter he's out there protesting the Islamists and it's usually him that's getting jailed and you know treated worse by the police or the counter protesters are arrested as opposed to the people that are blocking the public streets and putting the projections of River to the Sea you know and all these things.
There's a few things going on in that story, but one of the big shocking things about that story is the two-tier policing.
The policing where I've just learned that since October 7th, we spent 25 million pounds
of taxpayer money on the Metropolitan Police policing those specific protests, but I'm
yet to see where exactly they spent any money because they haven't been policed.
They've been riots.
But when the white working class lads come along...
Now the thing about Toby Robertson, he is a tricky character because he has a violent
checkered history.
It's not to say that he hasn't been right on various issues.
He's been absolutely right when it comes to the grooming gangs the last 50 years where white working class, or I should say underclass girls, have been groomed, raped, and in several cases killed, murdered.
And this is a topic mainstream media won't touch.
Someone like Tommy Robinson will cover those stories.
Now he's a brawler, he's a fighter, so that's why I don't want... Yeah, we don't have to make it about him specifically.
The whole point is we don't want violence in Britain.
But there's a big issue with policing where they're just too scared to do anything about the issue.
So you'll have, for example, the women wearing the patches on the back of their shirt with the paragliders.
They won't be touched at the time.
And then later the police maybe will try and find them.
Or there was one guy who said we need to normalize massacres on stage, on a rostrum in Whitehall.
No, they let him do that and then, oh, we'll find him later.
But then when it's like white working class people... With the British flag, that sometimes... There was another incident where people flying an England flag and a Union flag were stopped and told to put it away.
Yeah.
Whereas, of course, you can fly a Palestine flag.
There's another terrible case, which was, there's a guy in Again, after October 7th, a guy in East London who was filming on his phone filmed a street, I think it was in Bethnal Green, where Palestine flags can be put up across every lamppost down the street.
And he goes, I can't believe what I'm seeing in England, in my country.
And then he live streamed later that evening, the police came to his house.
He didn't say anything racist or Islamophobic in the video.
And they came to his house after.
And try to arrest him.
So there's unbelievable... Take mine as well.
And this is a context where the police are very happy.
There's a girl in Liverpool who was arrested for and charged and made to wear a dog collar around her ankle because she posted Snoop Dogg lyrics on her Instagram reels.
There's a guy who was formerly in the police Uh, his name escapes me, but said, wrote something like, men aren't women though.
The police came to his house.
So if you, if you know, if you, there's a young girl who had, uh, Asperger's who acute, and this is in West Yorkshire in Northern England.
accused a police officer, it's a young autistic girl, I can't remember what her actual condition was, but she said that the police officer looked like a lesbian-like auntie so-and-so, and they arrested her.
So the police are very happy to arrest people on these issues, but when it comes to the pro-Palestine, they just don't want to do anything about it.
This may sound like a naive question from an American, but I mean, has the Crown at least said anything about this?
I mean, is anything coming out of, you know, out of the monarchy that might be able to say some things about what England is that the politicians who are just too afraid of polls and everything else won't say?
So it's a pretty grim picture that you're painting, clearly.
You still live there, you're doing a podcast now, you're obviously outspoken about these
issues.
Clyde is very into this conversation, by the way.
I mean, if you don't see much of a future, if you think it's going to get worse, what
I mean, and I ask that, I ask that, by the way, when I have people that come to my studio from California, where I see, where they see very little future and I see almost no future, there will be places where there's a future and there's places where there isn't a future.
What do you make of the leftist alliance with this thing?
Because you made that distinction between, all right, so there's some Hamas supporters there, there are the Islamists, there's kind of hooligans, but then there are the Marxists and the Antifa people and the BLM people, and the fact that It was all sort of imported from the United States.
It's not like we have all of the same issues and that creates a bizarre thing also.
What is the British attitude to what they're seeing?
Now, and that's an interesting conversation, but then also, I'm not sure most British people can easily articulate what it is to be British in the first place.
Yeah, I guess that's what... And that's quite a tricky one, you know.
Some people would reject that we're a Christian country.
I would say, no, we're absolutely a Christian country, because even though we're technically minority Christian at this point, Our values and morals have been marinated in 2,000 years of Christian ethics.
And so we are Christian.
And even though the atheists, their morals are pretty close to being Christian.
British people are really suffering to articulate what it is to be British and it's not entirely clear what it is.
I think that a lot of normal British people know it intrinsically without being able to necessarily articulate it.
A thousand year history.
People think that there's not a British constitution.
Well, there is an English constitution that goes back to King Alfred's doom book.
And then, of course, the Magna Carta, which the Americans appreciate more than the British appreciate.
And there are various acts and tracts through the years that culminate and make this great heritage.
And in a way, maybe the Americans have been smarter because you've just got the American Declaration of Independence, pretty simple.
And then you've got the Constitution, so it's a lot clearer, and maybe it's simpler to say what it is to be American, whereas British people, it's tied in.
Well, if there's an America in a thousand years, or if this planet is floating around in a thousand years, I suppose we will see.
If we were to remove ourselves from all of this, from sort of the political craziness of the day, the type of things that you're talking about on your podcast, I mean, what really interests you and drives you?
Obviously this, and you're worried about your country and the future of free speech and things like that.
But I sort of sense that that's just been kind of put on your plate in that if things were better, you might be talking about some other things, which by the way, I feel about myself too at times.
One thing I've noticed, well, firstly, as I mentioned earlier, I feel a sense of duty to speak about issues that people feel they can't speak about.
But one thing that's also been made my life easier is that there are so many issues that mainstream media aren't prepared to touch that you can do really great stuff.
So I've just done I interviewed James Lindsay about the Red Green Alliance and where Islamism and woke meet.
I've done various stuff on immigration.
I've just been out in Israel with our mutual friend Douglas Murray, did amazing.
Thank God for that man.
I know he's been on your show a bunch of times, but he at least is able to articulate what is brilliant about Israel and Britain and America.
Why doesn't Britain have more Douglas Murray's, more people that are You know, like, I know he's one of a kind and he's a gem, but why aren't there a thousand people like him speaking up?
Obviously we had some help from you guys for the format, and the Russians.
But we are a country that's... Here's maybe an example of how I'm concerned it's not just cowardice but apathy that's killing Britain, so just to tie it back to something earlier I said in the conversation.
After 7-7, which was the attack on public transport in Britain in 2005, there were various things.
We were prepared to talk about Islamism and there were various things brought up, like the PREVENT program.
Fast forward to, let's say, the Manchester Arena attack, as I've already discussed, and the reaction was, hope not hate, love, and love not hate, you know, like, peace and love, and it wasn't like we were ignoring the other thing, but we were, like, saying, like, come on, let's try love, like, let's try this as the alternative.
Now with these incidences, like the Mike Freer thing, or the marches through London, It's just silence because everyone knows the problem, but people are too terrified to speak.
And what we need is more Douglas Murray's, more people to stand up and call it out.
Hopefully we can get to a critical mass where we're talking honestly again.
And I don't know what that's going to take.
And I think there are lots of courageous people in the country, but I wish they would stand up.
So since you're a free speech guy, where do you draw the line or do you draw the line when it comes to some of these protests, some of the things that are being chanted that we've discussed already, people calling for a global caliphate and that England will be a Muslim country and all of these things?
You want more people to speak up, but what do you do about the people that are calling for pretty noxious things right now?
We have our own problems with this.
Obviously, we have a First Amendment that you guys don't have.
On top of the fact they're blocking traffic and, you know, they're doing things that are outright illegal that nobody's doing anything about.
Well the issue of free speech is an interesting one because and this like an American free speech advocate would grate with my opinions on free speech and like what's the famous example in America where there were some Nazis?
Skokie, Illinois in 1972 the neo-Nazis marched in it was the largest concentration of Holocaust survivors in the United States and the ACLU which was a somewhat sane organization back then defending free speech they defended their right to do it as long as it was not violent.
I would say it's different than what's going on now, but let me get into it.
It's different than what's going on now because now they are not getting permits, they're blocking roads, they're blocking tunnels, they're outwardly calling for genocide from the river to the sea, they're assaulting people, like it's way more than just a planned march down one street on one day.
When I was in New York City a couple weeks ago, I had the guy that was picking me up at the airport, driving me to the hotel, was telling me, this is like a hardcore New York City, he happened to be a black guy, he was probably about 65, 70 years old.
He's like, yeah, yeah, we just call them Jihad Sundays, and they just take over, they have their Jihad for a day, and then we, and it's just like, and he's moving out of New York City, lived there his whole life.
He's like, I've just had enough, I'm leaving now.
Going to North Carolina.
But that something has shifted from, okay, you guys want to march on one day with a permit in a given place.
Okay, fine.
Express your free speech, even for the noxious things you're going to say versus calling for genocide versus purposely targeting Jewish businesses or going to the Jewish areas or stopping ambulances.
I mean, literally shutting down bridges.
You can't do that, but it's happening in your country too.
So I, although I haven't heard your answer yet, I suspect I'm going to be a little more in line with your response on this.
Where the line, which true American free speech advocates would come down, or let's say you had someone like Glenn Greenwald, and I think he's actually talked about this, is that he wouldn't take umbrage with the slogan from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free necessarily.
And he would defend that as a free speech It's a tricky one.
And even like, let's say a term like intifada, there's open calling for intifada on the streets of London.
I support the British rule that prescribed groups like Hamas, Hizb ut-Tahrir, Islamic Jihad are prescribed and if you support them, you should be locked up.
We need to clamp down.
This is an absolutely serious It's a fundamentally serious issue.
It's tearing at our social fabric.
And if you have those opinions, they are not, why even in Britain?
What do you think most British people think about what's going on in America?
Just like our general state of like cartoonish politics and the geriatric people running for president and the rest of it.
Like do you guys, I suspect most, I think this is true of most people all over the world, want America to be strong and sane and somewhat thoughtful and whatever.
I don't, and I think people, but then at the same time they love to crap all over America because it's kind of easy to do.
And so seeing what's every week with your president, now I don't wish ill upon anyone, but like, I remember when Trump was president, every other week someone was banging on about the 25th amendment and he was not mentally well.
She's followed your lead as being a prominent neo-atheist to now converting.
And so she's going to be arguing or discussing or debating the value of God Lord Dawkins.
And we've got a bunch of other people, John McWhirter, Michael Schellenberger, Lee Fung.
Constantine Kissin, Francis Foster, Mary Harrington, Aisha Camp, a bunch of intellectuals descending New York City for two days of debate, discourse, and discovery, and I think your audience might find that very enjoyable.
That will be interesting because Ayaan is an angel, you know that.
I just spoke of her.
Maybe that's what made her a believer, when enough people kept telling her she was an angel, and then she was finally like, all right, I'll be a believer.