March 31, 2024 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| At that period, the MI5 acknowledged that there were 22,000 jihadis in Britain. | ||
| A couple of years later, MI5 has said that of the 44,000 extremists in Britain, 90% are Islamists, which is about 38,000. | ||
| So 38,000 Islamist extremists in Britain. | ||
| 90% are Islamists, which is about 38,000. So 38,000 Islamist extremists in Britain. | ||
| Now we're a country that's, which is, I think we're 67 or 68 million people, which is the | ||
| population of Texas and California put together, but the size of Oregon. | ||
| So we're a lot denser than these places are here. | ||
| And there's a lot of Islamists, but you cannot talk about the Islamist threat because of political correctness. | ||
| Because you can't say, then you talk, oh, you're being harsh to Muslims. | ||
| No, of course we must stand against anti-Muslim hate, but we must be able to criticize Islam which is a serious issue in Britain. | ||
| All right, Winston, so I said to you right before we started, what year were you cancelled? | ||
| You said 21, and then you said, but I've done that story a lot, but I am going to force you to do it one more time. | ||
| So, Winston Marshall of Mumford & Sons, you are a very controversial person. | ||
| So, how did you get cancelled? | ||
| Let's do the cancellation thing one more time, officially, on the record, then you can puke in a bucket and we can move on to some other things. | ||
| Because I should have had you on way back when. | ||
| I don't know how that didn't happen. | ||
| Well, you know, we met way back when. | ||
| But I think we last saw each other in London for the Art Conference and it was a pretty dark time. | ||
| Maybe we should talk about that later. | ||
| And also we met back in 2018 when you were supporting or opening for Jordan on his UK, his London Hammersmith Apollo show. | ||
| But we didn't really get to chat much. | ||
| But I should qualify or clarify, I wasn't technically cancelled. | ||
| What happened was I tweeted, I was tweeting about the books. | ||
| Pretty damn close, let's say. | ||
| Well, I had opinions that put my whole band, Mumford & Sons, in trouble. | ||
| And there were professional repercussions for them, a dog pile from the industry. | ||
| And I could have stayed, but it would have meant living a lie, actually literally lying. | ||
| And so I decided actually better to live, tell the truth, speak my mind and speak freely than take that path. | ||
| And so it wasn't technically cancelled, I quit because those were sort of my options. | ||
| Now the issue in case was Andy knows specifically, he wrote a book about Antifa and BLM riots, the 19 deaths in the first 14 days of the BLM riots, the mass looting across America, and all the damage done across America, not least to black businesses and black communities. | ||
| So a picture for the music industry, That was absolutely a topic you could not go, you know, break against. | ||
| That was sacred, absolutely sacred. | ||
| And this was also the height of the sort of BLM? | ||
| Well, this is the height of sort of COVID lockdown. | ||
| It's more like the third lockdown. | ||
| If you remember, I think June 2nd was when Black Square, it was basically a picket line. | ||
| Everyone in the music industry had to have put up a black square to show their allegiance with the Black Lives Matter organization. | ||
| And There's a funny example is the band Hanson, I don't even remember that band, but they put out a Black Square a day late and they got a pile-on from their fans. | ||
| This was how insane it was and of course since then I feel very vindicated, not least because Black Lives Matter, which they made something like 90 million dollars in that period. | ||
| None of which they spent on black lives, it was spent on a very healthy real estate portfolio, as well as various trans charities, and this stuff was apparent to me. | ||
| I'd been reading the BLM literature before, like people like Patrice Kankalos and Tanahasi Coates, although he's not technically BLM, but what they were about was abundantly clear. | ||
| It was also clear And this is bringing the story forward, where they stood on issues like Israel and Palestine. | ||
| So, for example, at the beginning of 2021, they were on pro-Palestine, fiercely anti-Israel marches. | ||
| That was happening. | ||
| Now, we see this flare up again after October 7th. | ||
| I think it was the Chicago BLM faction that put up a silhouette of the paragliders. | ||
| Just after October 7th and so it was always clear what their worldview was. | ||
| It was Marxist, it was anti-capitalist, it was anti-family, anti-nuclear family. | ||
| They're explicit on their website and all of this I've seen this and I thought this is absolutely ridiculous and that's Why I think I ended up having an interest in a journalist like Andy Ngo, who was covering this kind of stuff, showing the opposite of what the mainstream media was covering. | ||
| You know, mainstream media, you remember the classic Chiron CNN, mostly peaceful protests. | ||
| This is old news. | ||
| I'm sure your listeners know this story inside and out. | ||
| Or rather, not my story, but the story inside and out. | ||
| It's always funny to me, because I know a lot of people don't like doing their origin story, so to speak, over and over again, and I sense that with you for sure. | ||
| But it's important, I think, because you're a musician first, and now you are outspoken about a lot of these things. | ||
| But all you did, am I right? | ||
| All you did was tweet out a link to the book, right? | ||
| Andy's book, which was about all the things that you just described. | ||
| But that was it. | ||
| It wasn't as if you went up there and said something crazy or anything else. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| And not only that, I only had about 3,000 followers on Twitter. | ||
| It was insane. | ||
| And just for context, it ended up being on all the trending Twitter trends in the UK. | ||
| I don't know about America. | ||
| And by the end of the weekend, it was a segment on The View and Tucker Carlson. | ||
| It was in various newspapers, mainstream newspapers, and totally coming after me. | ||
| So the whole thing was like... | ||
| I do think an act of God, in a sense. | ||
| I actually, at this point, think literally an act of God, but it was totally bizarre what happened. | ||
| Okay, so this all happens, kind of all hell breaks loose, all the usual stuff, but you do make the point that you were not cancelled in that. | ||
| The band did not fire you, you basically stepped away because it was just creating too much Various radio stations said they wouldn't play us, venues said they wouldn't host us. | ||
| I was under, I would say, serious duress, was put out an apology. | ||
| Now I'd also say at the time that I was open to being wrong, so maybe I have got something wrong, people are offended, maybe I've done something wrong here. | ||
| And then there was about a two or three month period, that was March, Two or three month period when I just looked into this topic. | ||
| I feel like I know the topic inside and out. | ||
| Because if I was going to die on a hill, I'd better know what hill I was dying on. | ||
| Unfortunately it was a bloody mole hill, which was rather frustrating. | ||
| And then I decided I had no way forward. | ||
| I was not sleeping. | ||
| The whole thing was unbelievably stressful. | ||
| And so a few months later I put out a letter explaining why I had no choice but really to quit. | ||
| And to save my old band the trouble of association with me. | ||
| And since then, life's been completely wild, and I guess that's why I'm speaking with you now. | ||
| I've been thrown into this world of ideas. | ||
| I still, of course, play music. | ||
| It's my first passion and first love, but You didn't bring a banjo with you by any chance? | ||
| You don't have a banjo? | ||
| Do we have a banjo? | ||
| I actually might have a banjo around here. | ||
| Someone see if David can find a banjo around here. | ||
| We might have to have you play a little something. | ||
| You don't have a banjo? | ||
| No, we might have a banjo. | ||
| My father-in-law absolutely loves the banjo and I think he might have one upstairs. | ||
| We'll see if we can grab one. | ||
| Someone text David, see if we can get a banjo so we can end this thing in style. | ||
| Since we started with the origin story, at least you could end as a musician. | ||
| That isn't an origin story, it's just a little chapter, but I guess it's the origin of how I now end up three years later in the world of ideas. | ||
| I then went to The Spectator, it's a British political magazine, I was there for two years. | ||
| Doing interview shows similar to you, starting in the arts but then going to wider topics, taboo topics. | ||
| I feel somewhat, and I'm sure you feel this, well I imagine you'd feel the same way, somewhat of a responsibility to tackle those taboo topics because people at home can't. | ||
| They can't have those conversations with their friends or at work or their self-censoring. | ||
| I wonder if things may be at ease now. | ||
| It was certainly much worse in that period. | ||
| Yeah, well I think we've sort of shifted out of some of that. | ||
| There do seem to be some protections against, you know, oh my god, somebody in a band tweeted out one thing I don't like. | ||
| The firing and the leaving of things and all that seems to have defrayed a little bit, but you know, it's always right there and you never know when it's going to return. | ||
| But it's interesting to me that you described it as, did you say an act of God, or you thank God now that it happened? | ||
| Because that's a pretty interesting thing. | ||
| Yeah, I can't help but Did you even consider yourself political before? | ||
| it was so totally bizarre and completely spun my life out from where it was before. | ||
| Did you even consider yourself political before? Was this just kind of like... | ||
| I was interested in politics, for sure, and maybe more interested in ideas than | ||
| politics, like party politics, that's for sure. | ||
| And I was certainly frustrated by what the mainstream media were saying when there was clear, obvious stuff that was going on. | ||
| And the reason why maybe I say that is I reference God and who knows, like who am I to say what his plan is or whatever. | ||
| So you're not speaking for all people. | ||
| But some, I mean, maybe I say this if anyone feels like they're in such a situation. | ||
| Don't be scared because on the other side there are wonderful things and actually the best thing in life is to be you, is to be the best you and pursue you. | ||
| And as you said before this conversation started, let the chips fall as they may. | ||
| And I actually believe that. | ||
| Tell the truth and let the chips fall as they may. | ||
| And that is the best approach to life. | ||
| It's the only approach to life. | ||
| So let's do some of the stuff, and let's see where the chips fall. | ||
| You live in London right now. | ||
| I cover a lot of what's going on in Europe all the time, and you mentioned October 7th and all that. | ||
| I saw you just a couple months back in London. | ||
| I drove past the Hamas rally. | ||
| You guys are having these things all the time. | ||
| London feels very tenuous, let's say. | ||
| Like, it does not feel like London of, say, your childhood. | ||
| I think we're kind of the same age. | ||
| What do you make of what's happening in your country right now? | ||
| It's very bleak and it's very dark and when I saw you I noticed how shaken you were by it all. | ||
| I think that was the beginning of November. | ||
| So I'll tell you a story that really affected me deeply. | ||
| October 7th obviously happened. | ||
| I think that was a Friday or Saturday. | ||
| October 9th. | ||
| I went to a vigil in Whitehall. | ||
| Now, Whitehall is a road in London. | ||
| It's near Parliament. | ||
| It's near 10 Downing Street. | ||
| It's the heart of politics in Britain. | ||
| And there was an Israeli, sorry, an Israel vigil. | ||
| It was a wonderful affair. | ||
| It was somber. | ||
| It was sad. | ||
| There was maybe a few thousand people, choir, songs were being sung, hymns rather, Hebrew hymns. | ||
|
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It was a wake, but it was peaceful. | |
| It was a community hurting. | ||
| There's a lot of Jews in London, a lot of Jews in Britain. | ||
| And meanwhile, I was seeing on my phone through Twitter, through a couple of photojournalists I follow, that across town, In Kensington, where the Israel Embassy is, there were celebrations, jubilant celebrations. | ||
| Flares were going up, people were on their knees praying, saying Allahu Akbar. | ||
| This was two days after, so there'd been no response from Israel. | ||
| And it was carnage, joyous carnage. | ||
| It was like a festival. | ||
| And obviously, like, you know, I'm sure you've seen the October 7th footage. | ||
| That was the worst pogrom since the war and how that can be the reaction is just totally shocking. | ||
| Now for me, later that evening I went home on the tube and there was someone who'd clearly been there. | ||
| We were on the same carriage together and I say clearly been there. | ||
| He was wearing the colors, he had a keffiyeh on, but most strikingly was that he was He was sauntering jubilantly, he was happy, and he was about a meter in front of me. | ||
| I was completely distraught by that. | ||
| I was very angry, I wanted to hit him, I didn't hit him, but I also wanted to break. | ||
| I was face to face with that, and that really had changed me. | ||
| When you're up front with that sort of, I would say, evil, like if you're celebrating October 7th, something that I really can't imagine more evil than October 7th, and for your reaction to be that that is a good thing, I've never been the same since then. | ||
| And I think you would have that experience. | ||
| Now, you say there are Hamas protests. | ||
| Well, every weekend since there have been protests. | ||
| I don't think, like, just for the sake of clarity and it's worth being... | ||
| It's worth being accurate just for people who disagree, because it's not just Hamas supporters. | ||
| There are Hamas supporters. | ||
| In fact, I think on the first weekend there were three women who wore, who on the back of their clothes had taped images of the paragliders on their back. | ||
| They've just been charged and prosecuted about two or three weeks ago. | ||
| One of them was from Gaza. | ||
| So she'd moved to Britain from Gaza, fleeing Hamas. | ||
| She's now in Britain celebrating Hamas. | ||
| So yes, there are Hamas supporters there. | ||
| And I've been to a few of these protests to witness, and there are. | ||
| Now, there are also far-left Socialist Worker Party types, Jeremy Corbyn types. | ||
| I mean, Jeremy Corbyn's literally there. | ||
| There is a far-left British ultra-progressive contingent to it, and there's quite a few people in between. | ||
| So it's not just pro-Hamas. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| The reason I say that, by the way, and I appreciate you kind of cleaning it up, is that there's no one there that would openly state that they are against Hamas, right? | ||
| I mean, have you ever seen that? | ||
| I've seen one guy once went to one who was like, Hamas shouldn't do this, but, you know, freed Palestine and he got heckled and kicked out too. | ||
| That's the distinction, but I understand that there's many people, many different groups there, let's say. | ||
| I'd go further and say that their ire is directed at Israel, the state of Israel. | ||
| They're not saying free Palestine from Hamas, they're saying free Palestine from Israel. | ||
| And so you are accurate in that sense. | ||
| So things are worse now, like since you were here. | ||
| Well, let's go back two weeks or three weeks ago, there's an MP called Mike Freer in the constituency of Finchley and Golders Green, which is northwest London. | ||
| It's a very large Jewish community. | ||
| Before Christmas, his offices were arson attacked. | ||
| He has to wear a bulletproof vest everywhere he goes, he says, and he has had jihadi groups specifically targeting him. | ||
| There was an MP about two years ago called Sir David Amos who was killed by an Islamist, and the Islamist I had first gone to this guy, Mike Freer, to scout him out. | ||
| I had also gone to another MP called Michael Gove before finally going to Sir David Amess and killing him brutally. | ||
| So Mike Freer then says, I don't want to run anymore. | ||
| It's not safe for me. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So an elected official, a democratically elected official doesn't want to represent his constituency because he fears for his life. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So democracy is being completely undermined here, but it gets worse. | ||
| Last week, the Speaker of the House, Lindsay Hoyle, There's a complicated system how Parliament works, but in brief, went against parliamentary protocol because, well, two main reasons. | ||
| One, because the Labour Party was going to be split because some of the Labour Party are more pro-Palestine and then the leader, Sir Keir Starmer, is trying to be a bit more moderate and have a sort of more two-state | ||
| approach to it. But the other reason is, and this was specifically cited by Lindsay Hoyle, the | ||
| Speaker of the House, was that MPs are being threatened for their lives and we know that this | ||
| is from Islamists. So what is actually happening in the Commons is that they're | ||
| going against protocol because of Islamist threats. | ||
| At the same time this was happening, outside on the streets, outside Parliament, huge protests, and they were lighting up the Elizabeth Tower, or Big Ben, from the river to the sea. | ||
| And so democracy in Britain is literally being completely undermined by the Islamists. | ||
| This has now blown up to a whole other story about Islamophobia. | ||
| Now, there is anti-Muslim hate that's on the rise. | ||
| Anti-Semitism is just skyrocketing. | ||
| We've had synagogues closed, Jewish schools have been closed. | ||
| What's happening there is atrocious. | ||
| But there's also anti-Muslim hate, and that should be acknowledged. | ||
| But then this is blown up into a whole conversation about Islamophobia and this word Islamophobia. | ||
| And so instead of, when there is anti-Muslim hate, they call it Islamophobia, which means that you then can't criticise the Islamists who are literally shutting down Parliament or affecting what's going on in Parliament. | ||
| And so now there's this huge row about Islamophobia. | ||
| Meanwhile, almost all of the politicians are too terrified to call a spade a spade and directly address the Islamist issue. | ||
| The Islamist issue in Britain is massive. | ||
| Okay, the Manchester arena bombing, which happened in 2017, which is when a young second generation born in Manchester is called Salman Abedi of Libyan heritage, Set off a bomb at Manchester Arena, a venue that I'd played a couple of times before and after that event, killing 22 kids and wounding 100 others. | ||
| How have I got here? | ||
| So, sorry, I've lost my train of thought, but, well, hammer the point. | ||
| At that period, The MI5 acknowledged that there are 22,000 jihadis in Britain. | ||
| A couple of years later, MI5 has said that of the 44,000 extremists in Britain, 90% are Islamists, which is about 38,000. | ||
| So 38,000 Islamist extremists in Britain. | ||
| 90% are Islamists, which is about 38,000. | ||
| So 38,000 Islamist extremists in Britain. | ||
| Now we're a country that's, which is, I think we're 67 or 68 million people, | ||
| which is the population of Texas and California put together, but the size of Oregon. | ||
| So we're a lot denser than these places are here. | ||
| And there's a lot of Islamists. | ||
| But you cannot talk about the Islamist threat because of political correctness. | ||
| Because you can't say, you're being harsh to Muslims. | ||
| No! | ||
| Of course we must stand against anti-Muslim hate, but we must be able to criticize Islam Which is a serious issue in Britain. | ||
| Now, the other thing that's even... Sorry, I'm ranting. | ||
|
unidentified
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No, no. | |
| Well, you're giving me a lot of different directions to go, but go ahead. | ||
| The other thing that's frustrating, and this is what's also part of the whole story that's going on, is almost no one in Westminster, none of the British politicians, are prepared to actually address it because they're scared of the repercussions. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| Because they'll be tarred as racist, or they'll be tarred as far-right. | ||
| So, And I think there's about three MPs, only three, who are prepared to be honest about this. | ||
| They're Suella Braverman, Kemi Badenoch and Lee Anderson. | ||
| Now, unfortunately, Lee Anderson spoke about it and he was a bit clumsy of his words, although he's not apologised and He's continuing. | ||
| Suella Braverman lost her job as Home Secretary for criticizing multiculturalism. | ||
| Multiculturalism hasn't worked in Britain and Kemi Badnok is at least making the case for The delineation of words and being accurate of words. | ||
| Things are going to get worse. | ||
| Let me just continue. | ||
| A very important thing that's about to happen in Britain. | ||
| People who care about free speech, your viewers who care about free speech and censorship, really have to look at what's going to happen here. | ||
| So Keir Starmer and the Labour Party are going to win the next election. | ||
| Not because people are moving to Labour. | ||
| The recent by-elections show that. | ||
| No. | ||
| Everyone's rightly lost confidence in the Tories who have completely fucked up the country. | ||
| They've been a total disaster. | ||
| People are no longer voting for the Tories, not really voting for Labour, and recent by-elections suggest they're voting for new small right-wing parties like the Reform Party. | ||
| What the Labour Party are going to do, and this is going to be a big row over the coming years, is the definition of Islamophobia. | ||
| They're going to put in the worst definition of Islamophobia, and it currently includes any criticism of Islam. | ||
| So we're going to be in a position where you cannot criticise Islam. | ||
| Meanwhile, there's all these things going on in the streets. | ||
| Okay, there's an awful lot here. | ||
| Well, there's a lot here, but I think it's important because even for my American viewers that don't necessarily know much about the UK or the political situation or anything else, to me, you guys are just in some sort of slightly more future version of where we could end up unless we start dealing with this stuff properly. | ||
| There's demographic reasons it's not exactly the same and geographic reasons and immigration reasons and all that, but there is some form of this that is now happening all over Western Europe. | ||
| So, do you see any way Out of this for your country. | ||
| I mean, when I was in London, it was the first time I ever traveled where I had armed security with me the entire time. | ||
| I did not feel particularly safe on the streets when I drove by that protest. | ||
| I thought, man, if someone recognizes me in this car, like, this is not going to end well. | ||
| I've been to London a dozen times and loved it every time before that. | ||
| But I did see the change. | ||
| Awful lot of burqas in London now. | ||
| It's a big question. | ||
| Can it be saved? | ||
| Is it too late? | ||
| Things are going to get worse. | ||
| I think the Tories are finished. | ||
| And there are parts of Europe which are worse, like Sweden, for example. | ||
| The problem has been that no one's prepared to talk about assimilation or integration. | ||
| And the reason why it's also worse in Britain than here, although I'm not totally sure I understand the American immigration issue, but in Britain, a country of 67 million people, last year we had 700,000 net plus immigrants, migrants to the UK. | ||
| There are 1.2 million illegal immigrants in Britain. | ||
| There's about 50,000 who come in illegally every year. | ||
| We've got about 15 to 18 here. | ||
| Seven in the last three years. | ||
| Fifteen to eighteen? | ||
| A million. | ||
| In the country right now. | ||
| Seven in the last three years, which is more than the population of 38 of our states. | ||
| At least in America they're having a conversation about immigration. | ||
| And now I would want to ask you, that's mostly through the southern border, right? | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| The Democrats aren't addressing that. | ||
| No, the Democrats have opened the border. | ||
| Opened the border, yeah. | ||
| And do you think the Republicans want to do anything meaningful about that? | ||
| Trump's last year, there were about 300,000 illegals that got across. | ||
|
unidentified
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300,000, 350,000. | |
| We had about 3 million last year, so it's 10x-ed in about three years. | ||
| Like, that's not a tenable situation. | ||
| I think the Republicans will be better. | ||
| Our Republicans, sort of like your Tories, like, they're pretty bad, but they're not, like, unbelievably horrible, like the Labour Party or our Democrats. | ||
| That's kind of where we're at. | ||
| I think that Britain's in serious danger. | ||
| It could be over. | ||
| That sounds dramatic. | ||
| Well, you have a mayor in London who seems very sympathetic to a lot of these people. | ||
| He's not going anywhere. | ||
| There's another mayoral election this year and he's going to win that. | ||
| And the alternatives being proffered by major parties aren't They're not serious candidates. | ||
| There's no serious push against them. | ||
| In fact, at the last mayoral election, which again was against Sadiq Khan, the Tories put forward a guy called Sean Bailey. | ||
| And he lost because the Tories didn't believe in him enough to put the money behind him. | ||
| But actually there's some evidence, if you look at it statistically, like had he had more investment, he actually would have won because people don't actually like Sadiq Khan. | ||
| So the Tories don't even believe in themselves to win. | ||
| And not that I would vote for them in that election, but There is no alternative. | ||
| There's no pushback politically. | ||
| And this is what's also dangerous, is because it's not being dealt with at a political level, there's a serious danger it will get dealt with on the street level. | ||
| Already, the white working class thugs, violent types, are saying they're going to start counter-protesting and coming. | ||
| That's not good. | ||
| That's really bad. | ||
| Can you talk a little bit about how the media treats them? | ||
| Because, you know, I follow a guy like Tommy Robinson who I had interviewed It could be a decade ago already at this point. | ||
| Who was warning about a lot of this stuff and he was framed as far right and I don't know every single thing about the guy. | ||
| But I always see on Twitter he's out there protesting the Islamists and it's usually him that's getting jailed and you know treated worse by the police or the counter protesters are arrested as opposed to the people that are blocking the public streets and putting the projections of River to the Sea you know and all these things. | ||
| There have been a couple of counter-protests already since October 7th, and they have fallen into violence. | ||
| And there was one where Tommy Robinson was immediately found by the police, arrested and pulled out. | ||
| He was just having breakfast at a diner, right? | ||
| They grabbed him? | ||
| That might be correct. | ||
| There's a few things going on in that story, but one of the big shocking things about that story is the two-tier policing. | ||
| The policing where I've just learned that since October 7th, we spent 25 million pounds | ||
| of taxpayer money on the Metropolitan Police policing those specific protests, but I'm | ||
| yet to see where exactly they spent any money because they haven't been policed. | ||
| They've been riots. | ||
| But when the white working class lads come along... | ||
| Now the thing about Toby Robertson, he is a tricky character because he has a violent | ||
| checkered history. | ||
| It's not to say that he hasn't been right on various issues. | ||
| He's been absolutely right when it comes to the grooming gangs the last 50 years where white working class, or I should say underclass girls, have been groomed, raped, and in several cases killed, murdered. | ||
| And this is a topic mainstream media won't touch. | ||
| Someone like Tommy Robinson will cover those stories. | ||
| Now he's a brawler, he's a fighter, so that's why I don't want... Yeah, we don't have to make it about him specifically. | ||
| The whole point is we don't want violence in Britain. | ||
| But there's a big issue with policing where they're just too scared to do anything about the issue. | ||
| So you'll have, for example, the women wearing the patches on the back of their shirt with the paragliders. | ||
| They won't be touched at the time. | ||
| And then later the police maybe will try and find them. | ||
| Or there was one guy who said we need to normalize massacres on stage, on a rostrum in Whitehall. | ||
| No, they let him do that and then, oh, we'll find him later. | ||
| But then when it's like white working class people... With the British flag, that sometimes... There was another incident where people flying an England flag and a Union flag were stopped and told to put it away. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Whereas, of course, you can fly a Palestine flag. | ||
| There's another terrible case, which was, there's a guy in Again, after October 7th, a guy in East London who was filming on his phone filmed a street, I think it was in Bethnal Green, where Palestine flags can be put up across every lamppost down the street. | ||
| And he goes, I can't believe what I'm seeing in England, in my country. | ||
| And then he live streamed later that evening, the police came to his house. | ||
| He didn't say anything racist or Islamophobic in the video. | ||
| And they came to his house after. | ||
| And try to arrest him. | ||
| So there's unbelievable... Take mine as well. | ||
| And this is a context where the police are very happy. | ||
| There's a girl in Liverpool who was arrested for and charged and made to wear a dog collar around her ankle because she posted Snoop Dogg lyrics on her Instagram reels. | ||
| There's a guy who was formerly in the police Uh, his name escapes me, but said, wrote something like, men aren't women though. | ||
| The police came to his house. | ||
| So if you, if you know, if you, there's a young girl who had, uh, Asperger's who acute, and this is in West Yorkshire in Northern England. | ||
| accused a police officer, it's a young autistic girl, I can't remember what her actual condition was, but she said that the police officer looked like a lesbian-like auntie so-and-so, and they arrested her. | ||
| So the police are very happy to arrest people on these issues, but when it comes to the pro-Palestine, they just don't want to do anything about it. | ||
| This may sound like a naive question from an American, but I mean, has the Crown at least said anything about this? | ||
| I mean, is anything coming out of, you know, out of the monarchy that might be able to say some things about what England is that the politicians who are just too afraid of polls and everything else won't say? | ||
| It's funny to hear an American hoping for the monarchy to get involved. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm in the middle of watching The Crown, so I'm very bullish on The Crown right now. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| No, and it's generally a bad idea for them to get involved. | ||
| You still live there, you're doing a podcast now, you're obviously outspoken about these issues. | ||
| switched on, but they wouldn't say anything about it, I don't think so. | ||
| So it's a pretty grim picture that you're painting, clearly. | ||
| You still live there, you're doing a podcast now, you're obviously outspoken about these | ||
| issues. | ||
| Clyde is very into this conversation, by the way. | ||
| I mean, if you don't see much of a future, if you think it's going to get worse, what | ||
| I mean, and I ask that, I ask that, by the way, when I have people that come to my studio from California, where I see, where they see very little future and I see almost no future, there will be places where there's a future and there's places where there isn't a future. | ||
| I've stayed there because I'm a patriot and I love my country and I want it to be better. | ||
| And I think, I think a lot of Britons see what's going on and don't like it. | ||
| This is what's going to happen, though, if nothing's done, is that the aspirational and the entrepreneurial are going to start leaving Britain. | ||
| They'll come here. | ||
| They'll go to Israel or they'll come to America. | ||
| They probably won't go to California. | ||
| Actually, some of them will go to California because it's better in California. | ||
| Right, right. | ||
| Yeah, well, I don't know. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| That's probably splitting hairs at this point. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| No, I love my country, and I care about it. | ||
| I think Clyde's really appreciating your honesty and empathy right now, and that's what's going on here. | ||
| I'm not kidding. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Doug's consensus. | |
| He understands it's bad. | ||
| I'm a patriot. | ||
| I'm going to stay and fight, and I hope that More people will speak up and say what they're seeing, because there needs to be change. | ||
| Like, we're in trouble. | ||
| What do you make of the leftist alliance with this thing? | ||
| Because you made that distinction between, all right, so there's some Hamas supporters there, there are the Islamists, there's kind of hooligans, but then there are the Marxists and the Antifa people and the BLM people, and the fact that It was all sort of imported from the United States. | ||
| It's not like we have all of the same issues and that creates a bizarre thing also. | ||
| Yeah, there's a lot that's been imported. | ||
| American progressive identity politics has definitely been imported. | ||
| George Floyd is a household name in Britain. | ||
| Your police officers don't carry guns, is that not correct? | ||
| We don't carry guns. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So BLM got imported, you know, based on police shooting black people and your guys don't even have guns. | ||
| And there's another great tragedy. | ||
| Topsy turviness to it is that, as I mentioned earlier, there are girls in Britain killed literally because they're white, who no one knows about. | ||
| Lucy Lowe would be one of those in the grooming gangs. | ||
| George Floyd is a household name. | ||
| I wouldn't get into the controversy of George Floyd. | ||
| That's a conversation for another day. | ||
| But how is it that We've imported that whole thing, and it's come in through several ways. | ||
| It's come in through culture and entertainment. | ||
| It's in the schools. | ||
| It's deep in the schools. | ||
| And a part of it is it's so confusing that people don't know what it is, or it plays to people's empathy. | ||
| So it comes in through the back door of empathy. | ||
| Another thing that's at play is that if you contradict it, you immediately get called racist. | ||
| Like J.K. | ||
| Rowling, one of the great Women's rights in Britain is regularly called a bigot and far-right. | ||
| A normal person, even if they agree, they don't want to have that tar, so they're going to shut up. | ||
| You don't want to have the tar of being called racist and bigot and far-right. | ||
| So it keeps everyone silent. | ||
| It's so pernicious and it lets these terrible ideas What would you say the general temperament of the British public is? | ||
| Like, you know, if you think about Canada, you can see why a lot of these horrible ideas are spreading. | ||
| It's because Canadians were always sort of hands off, kind of thought of as like a little bit goofy or aloof or whatever. | ||
| And it was just, they had a big country and it was just pretty good. | ||
| So now the Islamists and the Hamas people have sort of just infiltrated. | ||
| You have a horrible Justin Trudeau, who's your equivalent of the Labour Party. | ||
| It just makes sense that they don't have enough people standing up right now. | ||
| Americans, a lot of us have guns. | ||
| We were born in the spirit of revolution. | ||
| There's a sense that as weird as things are, in certain spots, people will stand up for themselves. | ||
| What is the British ethos at this point? | ||
| There's a question as well. | ||
| What is the British attitude to what they're seeing? | ||
| Now, and that's an interesting conversation, but then also, I'm not sure most British people can easily articulate what it is to be British in the first place. | ||
| Yeah, I guess that's what... And that's quite a tricky one, you know. | ||
| Some people would reject that we're a Christian country. | ||
| I would say, no, we're absolutely a Christian country, because even though we're technically minority Christian at this point, Our values and morals have been marinated in 2,000 years of Christian ethics. | ||
| And so we are Christian. | ||
| And even though the atheists, their morals are pretty close to being Christian. | ||
| Christian countries are usually pretty good for atheists to live in. | ||
| That's kind of how it works. | ||
| And pretty good for Muslims and Jews to live in. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Although I'm not sure you could say the same about Muslim countries, necessarily. | ||
| You cannot. | ||
| I'm not sure what we can hold up as an example of an atheist country. | ||
| Maybe the French. | ||
| Yeah, and Islam's taking over there too, so there seems to be a trend here. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| British people are really suffering to articulate what it is to be British and it's not entirely clear what it is. | ||
| I think that a lot of normal British people know it intrinsically without being able to necessarily articulate it. | ||
| A thousand year history. | ||
| People think that there's not a British constitution. | ||
| Well, there is an English constitution that goes back to King Alfred's doom book. | ||
| And then, of course, the Magna Carta, which the Americans appreciate more than the British appreciate. | ||
| And there are various acts and tracts through the years that culminate and make this great heritage. | ||
| And in a way, maybe the Americans have been smarter because you've just got the American Declaration of Independence, pretty simple. | ||
| And then you've got the Constitution, so it's a lot clearer, and maybe it's simpler to say what it is to be American, whereas British people, it's tied in. | ||
| Well, you guys got a lot of years on us. | ||
| We were able to pick up some of that stuff. | ||
| Yeah, I'd like to see what America would be like in a thousand years. | ||
| Right, exactly. | ||
| Well, if there's an America in a thousand years, or if this planet is floating around in a thousand years, I suppose we will see. | ||
| If we were to remove ourselves from all of this, from sort of the political craziness of the day, the type of things that you're talking about on your podcast, I mean, what really interests you and drives you? | ||
| Obviously this, and you're worried about your country and the future of free speech and things like that. | ||
| But I sort of sense that that's just been kind of put on your plate in that if things were better, you might be talking about some other things, which by the way, I feel about myself too at times. | ||
| I'm sure. | ||
| One thing I've noticed, well, firstly, as I mentioned earlier, I feel a sense of duty to speak about issues that people feel they can't speak about. | ||
| But one thing that's also been made my life easier is that there are so many issues that mainstream media aren't prepared to touch that you can do really great stuff. | ||
| So I've just done I interviewed James Lindsay about the Red Green Alliance and where Islamism and woke meet. | ||
| I've done various stuff on immigration. | ||
| I've just been out in Israel with our mutual friend Douglas Murray, did amazing. | ||
| Thank God for that man. | ||
| I know he's been on your show a bunch of times, but he at least is able to articulate what is brilliant about Israel and Britain and America. | ||
| Why doesn't Britain have more Douglas Murray's, more people that are You know, like, I know he's one of a kind and he's a gem, but why aren't there a thousand people like him speaking up? | ||
| It just purely comes down to that fear thing? | ||
| He's certainly a courageous man. | ||
| He's certainly courageous. | ||
| And the thing is, Britain was built on courage. | ||
| It was the courage that we stood up to the Nazis. | ||
| We stood up to Napoleon. | ||
| Obviously we had some help from you guys for the format, and the Russians. | ||
| But we are a country that's... Here's maybe an example of how I'm concerned it's not just cowardice but apathy that's killing Britain, so just to tie it back to something earlier I said in the conversation. | ||
| After 7-7, which was the attack on public transport in Britain in 2005, there were various things. | ||
| We were prepared to talk about Islamism and there were various things brought up, like the PREVENT program. | ||
| Fast forward to, let's say, the Manchester Arena attack, as I've already discussed, and the reaction was, hope not hate, love, and love not hate, you know, like, peace and love, and it wasn't like we were ignoring the other thing, but we were, like, saying, like, come on, let's try love, like, let's try this as the alternative. | ||
| Now with these incidences, like the Mike Freer thing, or the marches through London, It's just silence because everyone knows the problem, but people are too terrified to speak. | ||
| And what we need is more Douglas Murray's, more people to stand up and call it out. | ||
| Hopefully we can get to a critical mass where we're talking honestly again. | ||
| And I don't know what that's going to take. | ||
| And I think there are lots of courageous people in the country, but I wish they would stand up. | ||
| So since you're a free speech guy, where do you draw the line or do you draw the line when it comes to some of these protests, some of the things that are being chanted that we've discussed already, people calling for a global caliphate and that England will be a Muslim country and all of these things? | ||
| You want more people to speak up, but what do you do about the people that are calling for pretty noxious things right now? | ||
| We have our own problems with this. | ||
| Obviously, we have a First Amendment that you guys don't have. | ||
| On top of the fact they're blocking traffic and, you know, they're doing things that are outright illegal that nobody's doing anything about. | ||
| Well the issue of free speech is an interesting one because and this like an American free speech advocate would grate with my opinions on free speech and like what's the famous example in America where there were some Nazis? | ||
| Skokie, Illinois in 1972 the neo-Nazis marched in it was the largest concentration of Holocaust survivors in the United States and the ACLU which was a somewhat sane organization back then defending free speech they defended their right to do it as long as it was not violent. | ||
| I would say it's different than what's going on now, but let me get into it. | ||
| Why is it different? | ||
| It's different than what's going on now because now they are not getting permits, they're blocking roads, they're blocking tunnels, they're outwardly calling for genocide from the river to the sea, they're assaulting people, like it's way more than just a planned march down one street on one day. | ||
| When I was in New York City a couple weeks ago, I had the guy that was picking me up at the airport, driving me to the hotel, was telling me, this is like a hardcore New York City, he happened to be a black guy, he was probably about 65, 70 years old. | ||
| He's like, yeah, yeah, we just call them Jihad Sundays, and they just take over, they have their Jihad for a day, and then we, and it's just like, and he's moving out of New York City, lived there his whole life. | ||
| He's like, I've just had enough, I'm leaving now. | ||
| Going to North Carolina. | ||
| But that something has shifted from, okay, you guys want to march on one day with a permit in a given place. | ||
| Okay, fine. | ||
| Express your free speech, even for the noxious things you're going to say versus calling for genocide versus purposely targeting Jewish businesses or going to the Jewish areas or stopping ambulances. | ||
| I mean, literally shutting down bridges. | ||
| You can't do that, but it's happening in your country too. | ||
| So I, although I haven't heard your answer yet, I suspect I'm going to be a little more in line with your response on this. | ||
| I think inciting violence is clear and simple. | ||
| It's illegal. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But no one's really doing anything about it in either of our countries. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Where the line, which true American free speech advocates would come down, or let's say you had someone like Glenn Greenwald, and I think he's actually talked about this, is that he wouldn't take umbrage with the slogan from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free necessarily. | ||
| And he would defend that as a free speech It's a tricky one. | ||
| And even like, let's say a term like intifada, there's open calling for intifada on the streets of London. | ||
| That is the calling of violent uprising. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So, or jihad, like calling for jihad is, I mean, there's various definitions of the term and this is where it gets problematic. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| All these words have different definitions. | ||
| Which is by design, also. | ||
| They know they can't go out there and say, kill everybody, so they say these coded things. | ||
| I'm not saying that... So in this country, are you allowed to show open support for, let's say, Al-Qaeda or Hamas at this point? | ||
| Are you allowed to, legally, are you allowed to support this? | ||
| Legally, I think you could say, someone can, they will fact check us on this, this is the internet, I think you can say you support Hamas. | ||
| That is a free speech. | ||
| You can use your right to free speech to say that. | ||
| You can't give material support to them, meaning raise funds for them or things of that nature. | ||
| But I think we're getting close to the place where even that is not going to be able to be allowed. | ||
| I don't know, what would they have done if two weeks after 9-11 you were out on the streets saying you support Al-Qaeda? | ||
| I'm not exactly sure what the answer is. | ||
| But again, this goes to that gray area now between speech and support. | ||
| Well, as in Britain, the rule is you're not allowed to express support for a prescribed terrorist group, which would, in this case, be Hamas. | ||
| So that is illegal in Britain. | ||
| But again, everyone at these rallies is doing it, in essence, by default, in a way. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So what would your position be? | ||
| I mean, do you feel like Britain should be doing this? | ||
| I support the British rule that prescribed groups like Hamas, Hizb ut-Tahrir, Islamic Jihad are prescribed and if you support them, you should be locked up. | ||
| We need to clamp down. | ||
| This is an absolutely serious It's a fundamentally serious issue. | ||
| It's tearing at our social fabric. | ||
| And if you have those opinions, they are not, why even in Britain? | ||
| How can you? | ||
| Well, they're in Britain to take Britain. | ||
| I mean, that's the sad reality, right? | ||
| Like, isn't that like the cold, stark, hard truth that everyone kind of knows? | ||
| I think it's more complex than that. | ||
| I think that there are some, yeah, there are certainly some who are like that. | ||
| As I mentioned earlier, there are. | ||
| 38,000 jihadis in Britain. | ||
| So there are some. | ||
| it gets more complicated because there are millions of people in Britain who support | ||
| Palestine and who would say, who might argue Hamas are freedom fighters or something, | ||
| even after October 7th. And so I'm not sure. | ||
| I don't have the answer to that specifically. | ||
| Well, that's why I'm asking you. | ||
| It's complex and we have different laws related to all these things. | ||
| And I think generally speaking, all of the free speech people, and there was a big, I think, were you at the dinner at the Night of the Ark thing? | ||
| Were you guys there? | ||
| We got into like, there were like 40 of us. | ||
| It was like a Rubin Report reunion, debating what to do about this. | ||
| And I'm personally more on the side that you have to make some more arrests | ||
| related to this stuff. | ||
| They're using our freedoms against us. | ||
| And it's like, it's great to be a purist, and it's great to, | ||
| but when enough people are stopping commerce and closing roads and calling for Jihad, | ||
| it's not safe for your own citizens, and not enough good people are standing up. | ||
| So there are some weird, I suspect, let's put it this way. | ||
| I suspect that the average person in Britain, 20 years ago, if they could have figured out a way | ||
| put a clamp on this 20 years ago, they would have done it. | ||
| And they didn't do it. | ||
| That's your point. | ||
| And it's led to a lot of this. | ||
| And that I think also would go for France and Belgium and Sweden. | ||
| Well, the French have gone a whole other length where you're not allowed to show any religious symbol in a public building. | ||
| So you can't wear a crucifix in a school. | ||
| That was their way of dealing with the issue of multiculturalism. | ||
| We haven't really got, no one's worked out what the answer is. | ||
| And no one's even really having the conversation about it. | ||
| Because look, the free speech issue is an important one. | ||
| And as I've already said, it's going to become really big, particularly over the term Islamophobia in Britain. | ||
| But the really big issue and conversation that's not being had in Britain is about integration and assimilation. | ||
| How do we talk about what it is to be British? | ||
| Even having a common language is somewhat controversial. | ||
| We're always told diversity is our greatest strength. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No! | |
| Unity is our greatest strength. | ||
| How is that hard to say? | ||
| Just say it. | ||
| Isn't that patently obvious? | ||
| And by keep pushing this diversity, which is literally division, things are getting worse. | ||
| So free speech is an issue, but oh my goodness, my country's got so many, so many more. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| What do you think most British people think about what's going on in America? | ||
| Just like our general state of like cartoonish politics and the geriatric people running for president and the rest of it. | ||
| Like do you guys, I suspect most, I think this is true of most people all over the world, want America to be strong and sane and somewhat thoughtful and whatever. | ||
| I don't, and I think people, but then at the same time they love to crap all over America because it's kind of easy to do. | ||
| Yeah, I've certainly my big question coming here. | ||
| I was going to ask this on off. | ||
| Yeah, we're going to flip the script in a moment and that'll be on your podcast. | ||
| Who exactly is running America? | ||
| Because it's not Biden. | ||
| Maybe we should save this. | ||
| This will be the way we promo your podcast, which we'll link to down below. | ||
| We'll do that. | ||
| We'll do that on your show. | ||
| But that's interesting. | ||
| So like that's something that's like on the minds of Brits. | ||
| Like you guys see Biden and you see that he's something ain't right. | ||
| And who the hell is running this thing? | ||
| Yeah, absolutely. | ||
| I'll give you my theories on the other side. | ||
| Well, Britain needs America. | ||
| I think Israel needs America. | ||
| The West needs America. | ||
| And so seeing what's every week with your president, now I don't wish ill upon anyone, but like, I remember when Trump was president, every other week someone was banging on about the 25th amendment and he was not mentally well. | ||
| He walked down a ramp slowly, remember that one? | ||
| He drank a cup of water with two hands, they wanted to impeach him. | ||
| And where are those people now? | ||
| They've sort of suddenly got quite mute. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Are you not seeing what's going on here? | |
| And what are the other options? | ||
| If your man pops his clogs, is it Kamala? | ||
| That's very concerning. | ||
| Of course it is. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And you don't even live here. | ||
| Are you concerned? | ||
| Yes, I am concerned. | ||
| I mean, the whole thing feels tenuous at best. | ||
| As I say on my show every day, it's like by the time I finish this sentence, he may have fallen down the stairs. | ||
| And Kamala Harris is the president of the United States. | ||
| That's a problem. | ||
| Exciting. | ||
| Very exciting. | ||
| Anything else we didn't hit that you want to hit right now, or should we finish it up on your podcast? | ||
| Should we just roll right into your podcast? | ||
| Do we even want to stop? | ||
| We could just shift. | ||
| I need to print off my questions. | ||
| Ah, okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| Wow. | ||
| You are a professional podcast host now. | ||
| Anything else we should hit at the moment? | ||
| We're going to link to all your stuff down below. | ||
| That's very kind. | ||
| Thank you for having me on your show, it's very kind of you. | ||
| My pleasure, long overdue. | ||
| Great success, and more success to you. | ||
| It's been great to see you from far, from a distance, and great even now to be on Friendly. | ||
| But one thing I think your audience might be interested in is that I'm putting on a festival in New York City, May 3rd and 4th. | ||
| We have got some of America's and the world's leading intellectuals coming together, including Richard Dawkins in conversation with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That'll be interesting. | |
| A new Christian. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| She's followed your lead as being a prominent neo-atheist to now converting. | ||
| And so she's going to be arguing or discussing or debating the value of God Lord Dawkins. | ||
| And we've got a bunch of other people, John McWhirter, Michael Schellenberger, Lee Fung. | ||
| Constantine Kissin, Francis Foster, Mary Harrington, Aisha Camp, a bunch of intellectuals descending New York City for two days of debate, discourse, and discovery, and I think your audience might find that very enjoyable. | ||
| What's it called? | ||
| Dissident Dialogues. | ||
| Dissident Dialogues. | ||
| All right, we will link to that as well. | ||
| That will be interesting because Ayaan is an angel, you know that. | ||
| I just spoke of her. | ||
| Maybe that's what made her a believer, when enough people kept telling her she was an angel, and then she was finally like, all right, I'll be a believer. | ||
| She's so graceful and elegant. | ||
| Thoughtful and considerate and very caring and she's just wonderful. | ||
| We're lucky to have her. | ||
| In fact, she is ending up being one of the people standing up for the West. | ||
| I know. | ||
| If we only could have imported more of her, then things would be a little bit different. | ||
| It was a pleasure, my friend. | ||
| We will now continue all the unanswered questions on your podcast. | ||
| Thanks, Dave. | ||
| If you're looking for more enlightening conversations about international issues, check out our international playlist. | ||
| And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist, all right over here. |
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